Mini 1411: Timeshift Mafia OVER

[Sucrose]

VOTE: kitoari little dragon things mean trouble....

VOTE: kitoari We need more bandwagons.

I agree.

Vote: Kitoari

[Sucrose]

Okay, good wagon, team.

Leviathan: My god are you self-conscious. Is he always like that?

First, I don't play that there is anything in it for me. second, I could care less about xalxe's vote on me. Its RVS. I wouldn't even care if I was the MAIN wagon and I was going to be the one who people could hammer. Everyone in RVS is going to be "SURE" that who they say is scummy for a stupid reason. =P that's how the game goes.
Second. i know you were talking about my unvote. you probably were thinking that I took it off because I didn't want to be on the wagon when you were lynched, am I right? no.

You sure have been thinking about what that unvote looked like, haven't you? Your apparent assumption that Kito is town is also noted. Actually, it's pretty bad, the more I think about it. What if Kito flipped scum? Then why would you be worried about being seen on the wagon?

I took it off because I didn't want a quick lynch to occur. regardless if that makes me gain town cred its the truth. i'd rather scum was lynched then town so if you want me to go all claiming town now then I would. regardless of my alignment at this point in the game scums is going to try to act town. I am in no way acting suspicious. When something regarding my name comes up like your reasonings for me being scummy, I return fire and answer them truthfully. It ain't my problem if you still find me suspicious.
3. i could care less about jesters. i would think that you would naturally understand my reason for unvoting you and not try to pin me with something that isn't there or wasn't the truth. I don't want a quick lynch. but in your eyes I guess that makes me SOOO scummy. =P lol.
Four. No. nothing makes the game going until things start happening. We are still very much in RVS in my opinion. people like you are trying to make it look like we are out of RVS or whatever but because all the votes are on you and people are still "hopping on wagons' it means we are NOT out of RVS and that means the game IS NOT going. just because you don't understand someone doesn't mean they are scum or that its suspicious. =P just saying.

The preceding conversation is pretty good evidence that we're not in the RVS stage, here. Why are you so damn jumpy about two votes?

Three votes: VOTE: Leviathan

Side note:

Vote: Kitoari

Because we need to get the game going.


With that, I have to declare a V/LA because of a family Member visiting and I will not have Internet for about a week.

This I don't like. I strongly doubt scum think they can actually ram a RVS wagon through, but voting *aka noticeably playing the game* and then running off looks bad to me. And then also I don't know that town would want to keep a vote on a wagon that they have zero real feeling about while they're on V/LA. Scum wouldn't care, though.

I was originally going to put a vote here, but Leviathan's last post, #54 is worse.

*I've been ninja'd on a few posts here because others are online, I'm going to post this and then respond to those*

[Sucrose]

1. I have made great scum actually. I love my scum games.

2. again. we are still in RVS just because one person says the actually means their vote means nothing. it just means they are likely not to change but obviously have no solid evidence of anything except gut which i believe at this point is wrong.

3. you are pinning me with things that aren't me. =P savior of town. lol. no one is the savior of town. =P i'm just saying from a town point of view that I don't want quick lynches to happen. if I have to say it over and over again I will. Obvious is not obvious if people don't listen to it or do it. I always would rather be captain obvious then having people lynch you and have you turn up town when my vote on you in the first place was nothing but RVS unless you actually are scum and then people can go ahead and vote you. i don't care anymore.

4. I could care less if you are satisfied with my answers. no one ever is. i just love shoving it in people's faces at the end though. =) one of my favorite parts actually. =D

5. lol. i'm not misrepresenting you at all. you said I was scummy for "trying too hard" and then you clarified this as saying i wasn't scumhunting I was just "trying too hard to be town". and that I was "phony" for doing that.

6. I don't want to prolong RVS I never said that. those are your words trying to make them mine. HOWEVER. I do believe we should all understand when we are exactly out of RVS. if we are still voting you from RVS, then I would most likely assume that you have a high probability of being town and therefore NOT right to lynch because everyone on you just has fake reasons or reasons to hop on a wagon. thats not a good solid vote unless nobody cares and we just want to lynch someone here. I'm trying to point out the reason not to lynch you because its still and RVS lynch. but i have given up on that fact now. people lynch him if you like.

7. and for the last one. i'm simply saying you don't understand my words correctly. and that is not my fault that is yours. =P i'm simply trying to clarify them for you. =P

Hey, I don't like this post either! We're not in RVS. You seem to want to insist RVS might not really be over for the sole fact that you're the only suspect outside of it. Quick question: If you hadn't unvoted, do you think there was a good chance that Kito might have been lynched?

[Sucrose]

ooh. then I CAN get lynched off of this!!!

and at sucrose. its not self conscious. its whenever anybody posts anything wrong regarding me. I have to correct them.

Really? Because I'm seeing a guy going "scum found" page one and you blowing up in response and saying passive-aggressive things like:

"4. I could care less if you are satisfied with my answers. no one ever is. i just love shoving it in people's faces at the end though. =) one of my favorite parts actually. =D"

which if I'm interpreting right, is you telling someone that you can't wait to laugh at him once he's mislynched you. And then posting smiley-emoticons.

Lol, you're not going to fight us any more. FYI, there's three of us. It takes seven to lynch.

[Sucrose]

that falls in with sucrose did. coming in and making me look even scummier.
and no i don't. your vote on me i feel was RVS and anyone could have done that. but just confirming your vote on me shows nothing.

You're the only one who makes you look scummy. You didn't answer my question: If you hadn't unvoted, do you think Kito was in danger of being lynched?

[Sucrose]

that falls in with sucrose did. coming in and making me look even scummier.
and no i don't. your vote on me i feel was RVS and anyone could have done that. but just confirming your vote on me shows nothing.

You're the only one who makes you look scummy. You didn't answer my question: If you hadn't unvoted, do you think Kito was in danger of being lynched?

sorry. didn't see that post. and YES I did think that. which is why I backed off so that it was almost CERTAIN not to happen. I didn't think him that scummy to begin with since it was an RVS vote.

Scum would have to be unbelievably stupid for an RVS wagon to turn into a lynch. I don't blame you at all for unvoting to be safe, but acting like it somehow gives you town cred is stupid. And scummy.

[Sucrose]

confirm vote: leviathan.

I'm perfectly willing to hang Leviathan today. He's either scum or playing like a VI, and I've glanced over his past games, and he seems to have only been the D1 lynch once, so obviously he must not look incredibly scummy in every game.

[Sucrose]

Oh, leviathan, do us a favor and claim, would you? Unless you're scum, in which case don't bother.

[Sucrose]

^such a great way to go about finding scum. =) being so sure of himself. =) i know where my vote goes. VOTE: xalxe

Didn't you say half a page before this that you were leaning town on Xalxe, and before that said that of the threee of me, Kitoari and him, you thought he was the least scummy? And then he comes in and states the same opinion as before, and you vote for him out of all people. Huh.

Just so I'm reading it right, this sums up 112, no?

SoraAdvent- null
Leviathan93
Keybladewielder-leaning scum
PeregrineV- leaning scum
Bitmap- leaning scum
Lurker- leaning scum
ArcAngel9-leaning scum
Lastsurvivor- null
Xalxe- scum (from vote 131)
Sucrose- could be scum
Kitoari- town
Guille2015- town
Human Destroyer- leaning scum

Just wondering, because for a game this size your ratios are the opposite of those normally encountered.

And where are the reasons, i was hardly here.. it was the weekend. and this whole list thing is not looking good. scum found

Unvote

VOTE: PeregrineV
did tiny bit of catch up... thanks to levi, i had like 3 full pages to read..

for me currently ( based on discussion so far)

i don't really like Levi wagon, not sure if she is scum or not but it looks to0 obvious. that's pushed me to check the levi wagon list which is Xalxe, Kitoari, Sucrose, Human Destroyer, SoraAdvent, so there is a good chance that one or more than one in this list could be scum.

In my opinion, Peregrin V makes a very helpful town post, pointing out that Leviathan's reads are inconsistent with town play, and you think he's scum for it? Maybe I'm looking at it too much through the lens of

Levi is scum

, but

FOS: Arc Angel.

Levi is either scum or horribly playing town, I can't fathom why someone would think Peregrine's above post is scummy as hell.

New update on my scum list since people have posted there thoughts on it.

Angel. looking like town. at least not scum anymore
Bitmap same as before. leaning scum. want more out of him.
Guille same. still town.
Human Destroyer. null.
KeyBladeWielder. scum mostly for lurking. but nothing wrong out of him really. so null, leaning scum
Kitoari. Still a ranting townhound.
Last Survivor. Still town.
Lurker. is a bit of a lurker. could be buddying up to me as an escape route for scum since he really is the only one who sides with me. leaning scum
PeregrinV. i just get an ominous town vibe.
SoraAdvent. Null still.
Sucrose. scummy now.
Xalxe. either scum or way too easily offended caring townie.

I LOVE THE PICTURE!!!!! that train will cause me to be an and I will be with other

*this has already been pointed out, but...*

Since someone pointed out that his previous player summary was totally un-townlike, Lev's going to post a different one with all of his reads on everyone nudged to more townie. Some of it's actually kind of subtle, like saying LS is "still town" when he said LS was null before, and bumping Sora from scummy to null.

I have zero problems with the quickness of this lynch.

[Sucrose]

How is he town if he does things that town won't do?

Sorry, I meant stupid things that scum wouldn't do.

Lev is WIFOMing and AtEing to a fault at this point. And this game is just stagnating.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lev

Although I'll note that Arc is likely scum regardless of Lev's alignment.

Whoa, what's wrong with this post?

Vote: Last Survivor

Hey, hey, you're going to have to point it out for us.

becuz, you don't have any opinion about levi in your list, thats concerning me now
and now you quoting levi review post for some reason.

The list was not mine, it was Leviathan's.

I pointed this out to you in 144, yet you are still attributing the list to me.

What's up with that?

Wait, it was your breif of intial Levi's list. I am sorry. I totally misunderstood that. I apologize
I fell like crap!!!

Unvote

Okay. I'd normally be concerned that you weren't reading, but since English isn't your first language I'll give you a pass.

plus since I'm scum i might as well tell you my scum partner to help you out while i'm at it. Its guille. just saying.

P. sure you can get modkilled for this.

for what? faking being scum and going round pointing fingers at whoever I damn well please?

Actually yes. There was a recent discussion on this, and it was almost universally agreed that this is one of the few things that should get a player automatically mod-killed (and possibly banned) regardless of their alignment of if they're telling the truth. There's no way for it to not ruin games.

[Sucrose]

How I feel about that hammer is gonna depend a lot on how Lev flips.

Obviously, Kit and Xalxe are very town if Lev flips scum, since there's no way that was planned out.

Bitmap is suspicious.

[Sucrose]

It'd be really great if Lurker would post.

[Sucrose]

Alright, I was hoping Lurker would post so I could get a better picture of if I'm right about this or not, but since he's apparently not going to show up I'll go ahead and post this:

You guys voting Lurker are barking up the wrong tree. Let's think about it. Scum-Lurker quickhammers.......someone he knows is a vanilla townie. Does this make sense? Was there any chance that Levi

wasn't

going to be the day's lynch? No, there wasn't. Was scum-Lurker protecting another scum player by quickhammering? No, because Levi was the only person with any sort of serious suspicion on them. Lurker's hammer doesn't make any damn sense for scum, and in fact this whole thing, and how quick people were to vote him for it, makes me think he's town.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and Lurker is just an erratic player, town or scum, but really I see this episode as pointing to more town than scum.

Nope. VOTE: Bitmap

Bitmap here stays off of the Levi wagon, but doesn't really attack it either. Then today he sheeps suspicion of Lurker, then sheeps a vote on him immediately after someone else does, when it looks like the suspicion of Lurker is unanimous. He timidly throws suspicion on ArcAngel without actually saying what he finds scummy. He's made a total of

2

sentences with content in 12 posts. Scummy. Really scummy. I like my gut feeling on this one.

Reading the last page, ArcAngel is also extremely scummy.

Also, for the record, Lurker is at L-2 right now, not L-1.

[Sucrose]

Lol, idk what's going on.

13

posts, two sentences of content.

[Sucrose]

If I was scum (I'm not), I would be voting for the person who seems least like scum (SoraAdvent).

As a town member, my job is to eliminate all threats to the town.

You are playing very anti-town from my point of view, and are either a) scum, b) serial killer, or c) a guy who talks big but has no power to back it up. I'm going with a) and c) here.

You seem to be a town threat.

The person I most suspect right now (Arc) is who I want to vote for, but I have to eliminate threats to my game before I worry about the towns'.

And Arc's next to last post.

This is either a scummy, or an incredibly naive post. I was suspicious of Keyblade yesterday, I'm still suspicious of him. In his defense though, when he unvoted and voted ArcAngel, I

thought

he did it because he liked my points on Lurker. Well, either that or he no longer thought the Lurker wagon was going to get off the ground.

Anyway, ArcAngel is a scummy player and I wouldn't mind seeing her hang. I still would like a Bitmap wagon, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen, and right now I prefer ArcAngel or Bitmap lynch to Keyblade lynch. As to

why

ArcAngel is scummy, I would mostly be repeating Human Destroyer's points in #239. Also, if ArcAngel is scummy, I think Bitmap is her partner, because of this post:

Why does Arc's posting give my stomach a bad feel...

Bitmap has done zero scumhunting, but throws that out there.

The thing that concerns me is I suspect the scum have at least one player who knows what they're doing. I don't think it's Human Destroyer. Scum could be hiding in the pile of Guile, PeregrinV, or Last Survivor, who all haven't posted enough for me to get much of a read.

I beg to differ

I think I'll be proved correct

Get ready to drown yourself into mud with shame.

This isn't helping. At all. If you're town you should be trying to show how townie you are, not gloating about how your accusers are wrong.

[Sucrose]

@mod, votecount please?

[Sucrose]

Heh, Peregrin died, no

wonder

he was so quiet. *hangs head in shame*

[Sucrose]

VOTE: ArcAngel L-2.

[Sucrose]

I think you missed the last page, mod.

Also

Unvote, Vote: Lurker

He was just here, he's active lurking.

[Sucrose]

@Sucrose: Since you say that Guille or Lastsurvivor are people you don't have reads on, what are your reads on everyone else?

I listed my scum suspects, which are Bitmap, ArcAngel, and Keyblade in roughly that order, everyone else is null or town. I'm reading town on Kit and HD, very mildly town on you, dead null for Guile and LS. Lurker is now a major wildcard.

Eh, he'll replace out
If he decides to attempt a prod dodge, we can unleash all hell on him
Get on the KBW or Arc wagons
Both are great

Deadline's not for a long time, I wouldn't mind dallying around for a while to see what happens with the Lurker situation.

Unvote

VOTE: Bitmap

[Sucrose]

Oh god, I'm going to have to trudge through this game. Great.

13

posts, two sentences of content.

Yeah? Fuck off.

What, you're pissed because I expect people in this game to actually play it? Who'd a thunk.

[Sucrose]

Alright, even though Lurker's role doesn't tell us anything about his alignment, I think he's more likely to be somewhat erratic town than scum.

I switch to a slight preference for an Arc lynch over a Bitmap lynch, now that Bitmap has been posting.

Unvote

[Sucrose]

VOTE: ArcAngel9

The hell is this?

Honestly, I was sheeping PV for the most part. And there have been more scummy players recently so I don't suspect you as much. As for the Lurker question, I mean, you don't have to make a complete 360...

Bitmap, could you tell me which post of mine this was meant to be in reply to?

[Sucrose]

<snip>

Conclusions

:
I find HD and Sora to be likely town. Sucrose and Kit follow, mainly for their posts yesterday. Bitmap is null and You'll find scum in Last Survivor, Arc Angel and KBW.

I find this to be a good post. Guile and Last Survivor are my two null reads. One problem I have with Last Survivor's play, although I can't put

too

much stock in it, is that I know from a previous game that he's a pretty good player. In this game, in contrast, he seems like he's barely here. If there's an scum player in this game who knows what they're doing, my suspicion is that it's him. Right now this isn't enough for a vote or even an FOS, but it's something to keep in mind.

God, are you blind? I said Sucrose was scummy for doing a 360 on Lurker. I never mentioned anything about the bandwagon on Arc and KBW.

When did Sucrose do a 360 on Lurker? I must have missed it when he wasn't posting.

I defended Lurker at the beginning of the day for the reasons you noted. Then he still didn't show up for days, but one day I noticed that he had been online earlier, but hadn't posted anywhere, meaning he was active lurking. Which is such scummy behavior that I voted him and said why. I'm not sure why Bitmap had any problem with this, especially since he thought Lurker was scum. (I've flipped back to thinking Lurker is probably town because I believe his claim.)

[Sucrose]

VOTE: Bitmap
I'm more confident in Bitmapscum than kbw or arc really. It looks like all three are going to be replaced so bleh.

At least one of them's

got

to be scum ducking out under pressure. It's just a matter of figuring out which. It annoys me Bitmap is replacing out before he answered my question.

[Sucrose]

Because he's scum and he doesn't like the pressure. He's largely been talking this whole time without saying anything.

[Sucrose]

He's probably volunteering to continue to talk (without volunteering any reads or anything useful) because he'd feel guilty about completely screwing over his replacement.

[Sucrose]

<snip>

Of all the posts of mine that you say are scummy, two of them are from RVS, and the others are for "going after the easy targets" which are KBL, ArcAngel, and your own slot. Trouble is, with the exception of Lurker, those are the only slots who have done anything anywhere near scummy in this game. Kito is towny. HD is towny. Sora is fairly towny. The others are at worst null. I'm not going to vote for them.

No, I don't particularly think all three of KBW/Arc/You can be scum, and it's a very legitimate concern that some of them could have just been VI types. But, out of the three, Bitmap was always the least likely to just be a VI, and you're not exactly making me change my mind. VOTE: Regfan
I also don't find your case on Sora to be compelling. I think you're trying to come across as town by going against the grain, but I don't buy it.

[Sucrose]

Kitoari, Bitmaps replace out was incredibly obvtown, like very very very town. Think about it for a moment, him staying around and continuing to post is him attempting to help the town before leaving since he felt bad that he'd replaced out and his replace out was due to a disinterest in the game. His Post 438 shows that but everyone in the room is caught up far too much in their tunnels that they're just ended up pushing on weaker players ignoring things that are actually tells.

No, it's not incredibly obvtown, it's just as likely to come from scum trying to not screw their team over by blatantly replacing out under pressure. And he didn't do a damned thing to help the town for the few minutes he stuck around, no reads, no nothing, other than telling us that he was going to keep posting. I asked him to clarify one of his earlier posts, all he replied was "lol, idk what's going on."

Of all the posts of mine that you say are scummy, two of them are from RVS, and the others are for "going after the easy targets" which are KBL, ArcAngel, and your own slot. Trouble is, with the exception of Lurker, those are the only slots who have done anything anywhere near scummy in this game. Kito is towny. HD is towny. Sora is fairly towny. The others are at worst null. I'm not going to vote for them.

No, I don't particularly think all three of KBW/Arc/You can be scum, and it's a very legitimate concern that some of them could have just been VI types. But, out of the three, Bitmap was always the least likely to just be a VI, and you're not exactly making me change my mind. VOTE: Regfan
I also don't find your case on Sora to be compelling. I think you're trying to come across as town by going against the grain, but I don't buy it.

Everyone needs to fucking read this post. Read it. Literally just read it. It's blatant misrepresentation's of why I think she's mafia, she's trying to belittle my reasoning by chopping a great deal of it of and then saying 'that's all!' while doing the same thing with my read on Sora which isn't a 'lack of reasoning' at all. It's not just to do with RVS posts at all but rather the entire push on Leviathan from you is extremely contrived and fake, none of it is a push on someone you suspect, it's a push to garner a mslynch and your play today is the same thing as that again, you didn't read or comment on any of my other reads but instead realized that I've nailed you and probably your partner too so you're jumping in an attempt to decredit and push back on me.

Did you miss how I've thought your slot was scum since the start of the day?

Anyway, like I said, I didn't find the posts of Sora's that you pointed out particularly scummy, and since your entire case on Sora rests on me and him being scumpartners, obviously I don't think much of it.

Okay, good wagon, team.

This is just an awkward way of asserting herself into the 'we' sort of group. It does nothing useful whatsoever and it's not the sort of thing that town decide to randomly spout out at all, it's just scum trying to ease themselves in since if they do get 'in' on peoples good sides they get away with things easier.

Sorry you don't like it? I didn't put much thought into that one, at the time I thought the Kito wagon going up to L-1 had given us useful information.

Leviathan: My god are you self-conscious. Is he always like that? Three votes: VOTE: Leviathan

Noting the self-concious behaviour is fine, as is questioning about whether it's a common thing from him but voting him in the same post as doing both of those makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying "You randomly voted in the RVS, do you always do that? I'm going to vote you now before I get an answer". It's opportunistic voting and attempting to push on him for reasoning that she straight-out-the-gun knew could be nullified it was a commonality in his meta play.

No, I see a player flipping out about a lousy two votes at the start of the game for no apparent reason, so what do I do? Put more pressure on him, of course. Levi was town, but I'll still stand by this tactic.

Scum would have to be unbelievably stupid for an RVS wagon to turn into a lynch. I don't blame you at all for unvoting to be safe, but acting like it somehow gives you town cred is stupid. And scummy.

This again is a misrepresentation of his actions (Similar to what she just did to me) she's stating that he's acting as if his unvote gives him town-cred which wasn't at all the reason behind his unvote, the reason behind his unvote was very clearly explained and not something that can be confused for anything else. It was done via fear of a lynch potentially happening and the whole "Scum wouldn't suicide by quickhammering" philosophy is terrible but gone into that already.

He didn't outright say "I expect town credit for taking Kito off of L-1", but the way he drew attention to it and was self-conscious about it was what gave me that impression. In particular he said:

Second. i know you were talking about my unvote. you probably were thinking that I took it off because I didn't want to be on the wagon when you were lynched, am I right? no. I took it off because I didn't want a quick lynch to occur. regardless if that makes me gain town cred its the truth. i'd rather scum was lynched then town so if you want me to go all claiming town now then I would. regardless of my alignment at this point in the game scums is going to try to act town. I am in no way acting suspicious. When something regarding my name comes up like your reasonings for me being scummy, I return fire and answer them truthfully. It ain't my problem if you still find me suspicious.

This was the post that made me vote for him.

I'm perfectly willing to hang Leviathan today. He's either scum or playing like a VI, and I've glanced over his past games, and he seems to have only been the D1 lynch once, so obviously he must not look incredibly scummy in every game.

If she'd glanced over his previous games she'd have noticed that the self-concious behaviour isn't a scum-tell in the slightest, she'd also have reconsidered a lot of the reasoning behind why she thought he was scum at this point but she didn't whatsoever and instead attempted to shift her reasoning towards "I don't ever care if he's town since he's playing badly" which makes no sense if she claims to have had scum-reads on multiple other players, she'd have prefered the day to draw out longer and get stronger reads on them all but instead she was happy with a quick ending day.

I did glance through Levi's other games, specifically to see if he always played that poorly D1. I only found one other game where he'd been lynched D1, and several where he'd made it to end-game, so I figured flipping out over a "Scum found" accusation and acting very erratically less than 5 pages in might indicate scum alignment for him.

And now you're misrepping me, the only other player I had a scum-read on D1 was KeyBlade, and he went V/LA........I will also admit that I just hated reading Levi's posts. He was useless, and I wanted him out of the game. I admit that, though I

did

also think he was the scummiest player.

Also, if you're town, this further cements the fact that trying to find scum-pairs before anyone's flipped scum is stupid.

[Sucrose]

ninja'd.

[Sucrose]

Either I can't read vote-counts, or that vote count is really messed up.

Lurker's justification for using his power seems to make sense. Regfan, I don't have a strong town read on Sora, it's just that his entire play so far has seems pretty genuine, and I haven't spotted anything scummy from him. It's a weak read.

[Sucrose]

@mod I've got a vote on Regfan

[Sucrose]

First impressions of regfan for me are positive. The position he was taken on the reads goes at odds with the rest of the players. I find that questioning and concentrating on the players that are seen as the strongest town candidates makes sense in case one of them has slipped by. Looking forward to see how his reads evolve.

Sucrose vote on Regfan feels like OMGUS. However, she has been suspicious of bitmap for a while though. I tend to agree with regfan on his case on Sucrose, but not as strongly. Regfan does not say anything about "Easy Target". The more games I play, I notice that there is no such thing as an "Easy Target". Actually, an "easy Target" that is vocabulary that scum uses. It assumes that the "Target" is town. So saying that someone is going after the easy targets is not really a valid argument. However, Regfan makes no such statements so it there are minus points on Sucrose for stating as such. Could Regfan have implied this, well, maybe, but the way he worded it is different. <snip>

Regfan said "common targets" not "easy targets." I don't see the difference. I wasn't looking at his post when I made my reply. Regfan is all blustery about how I chopped off most of his accusation to misrep him, but the only part I didn't reply to was the part about me being partners with Sora, which I think is really bad, and which I can't really refute anyway.

In my unsolicited opinion, he's coming out swinging, but since obviously I think his cases are awful it doesn't sway my opinion of the slot much.

Goodmorning's reads so far are pretty minimal, but since I know how bad it is to slog through dozens of pages I can't really blame her.

[Sucrose]

I know Reg's going to jump on me for this, but it bothers me that in response to the quickhammer discussion, Lurker points out how quickhammering is sometimes a town-tell, instead of ACTUALLY EXPLAINING WHY HE QUICKHAMMERED. It really bugs.

Reg, I feel like I've already countered most of your points, the only thing I can say about your claim that my case on Levi was "insincere" is that it wasn't. However, you're still claiming that I should have gone after other scum suspects, but I didn't

have any

, other than KBW, and you apparently failed to notice he was on V/LA until after deadline.

I believe KBW is at L-1, he needs to claim.

[Sucrose]

I would have liked to have a claim, but I can promise I'll be around tomorrow to hammer if Kito isn't.

[Sucrose]

Lurker's a question mark. He's practically nonexistent in this game, but he has a power and has explained the town motivations behind it. That said, I can see the scum motivations for using that role N1 as well.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the possible scum motivation, if you don't mind.

I've got a problem with Reg's case on me, but I'll wait until tomorrow to bring it out.

[Sucrose]

VOTE: Keybladewielder

[Sucrose]

VOTE: Regfan
Alright, I said at the end of yesterday I had a problem with Reg's case on me, but wanted to wait till today to talk about it.

Reg is scum. I'm sure of it now. And this is the part that makes me doubly-sure:

In post 454 Reg says "she claims to have had scum-reads on multiple other players, she'd have prefered the day to draw out longer and get stronger reads on them all but instead she was happy with a quick ending day." But here's the thing: the

only

other player I said I had anything close to a scum-read on D1 was Keyblade, due to one post of his, and he was V/LA.

Then, after I've already mentioned Keyblade was V/LA, in Post 487 he says it again, and also says he's read me in ISO:

<snip> But moving on from that she states in Post 168 that she has no issue with the quickness of the lynch; that clashes with the fact that she has scum reads elsewhere and one that is V/LA, if she were town it'd make a lot more sense to want to postpone things to get stronger reads and potentially wait for KBW to come back and actually contribute.

Where does this "other scum reads" thing keep coming from? The only thing I can think of is #168 where I FOS'd ArcAngel for making a baffling vote on PeregrineV. Thing is, in

the very next

post in my ISO, I quote ArcAngel apologizing for misreading Peregrine, and I say I'll give her a pass for the incident, since English isn't her first language. That little incident had been the sole reason for my FOS. There were no other suspects I made even the slightest mention of. For someone who's apparently paid so much attention to my play, why does he get something so major in his case wrong twice? Reg claims to have read me in ISO, so how did he miss that?

I've only just skimmed them but there's a big difference in amount of analysis and attitude between her scum/town play. If I get time later I'll go into it in more detail but please actually click through the links and read it then compare it to her play here. Right now she's being given probably the easiest scum win in the world because everyone is just sticking with their completely incorrect D1 reads and not actually stopping to realize that scum haven't had to put their neck on the block at all due to it making them always be able to stand back in regards to attention garnered.

And now Reg digs up some other games of mine, and claims there's "a big difference in amount of analysis and attitude between her scum/town play" but doesn't give any specifics whatsoever, he just says he'll come back to it later if there's time. You also missed one Reg, I was scum in Newbie 887. But quite frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone could actually get a decent scum read on me from those games, the only single-ball scum games I've been in were a Newbie and one where I replaced out D2. Reg is

trying

to make it look like he's putting in serious effort. It's a well-known town-tell. But he's not, really. He's doing the same thing I tried to do as scum in Ladies Night 1, which is pick a target and just conjure up a case on them. And keep in mind, Reg had a strategic interest in picking out me rather than other players, because I was the player gunning for Bitmap the most the day he replaced in. He loses nothing by making enemies with me, because I already wanted him dead.

[Sucrose]

If Sucrose was 'doubly-sure' that I was mafia she'd have put her case against me out yesterday since she'd have wanted to lynch someone that was a strong enough scum-read of hers that she's 'sure', the fact she didn't and saved it for today was because KBW was going to get mslynched yesterday thus she didn't need to do anything then <- This is actually a massive massive point that she's scum.

There was a grand total of 26 hours left until deadline, I knew there was no way I was going to be able to sway 5 people with that point on you, and it would have been a needless distraction at a time when Keyblade SHOULD have been claiming. It actually would have been too risky to even try at that point; I hammered KBW with 3 hours left, nobody else was even active who wasn't voting for him.

@

sucrose

: What's your Opinion of Last Survivor today? Any other scum reads other than Regfan, given KBW's town flip.

I've been leaning more and more town on Last Survivor. I have some mild suspicions of people who

could

be scum (you for example) but my other suspect slot, ArcAngel's has seemed pretty town since replacement, and I'm beginning to think ArcAngel really was more of a VI type than scum. On the other hand, I'm confident Regfan is scum in a way that I haven't been confident about any other player.

[Sucrose]

There was a grand total of 26 hours left until deadline, I knew there was no way I was going to be able to sway 5 people with that point on you, and it would have been a needless distraction at a time when Keyblade SHOULD have been claiming. It actually would have been too risky to even try at that point; I hammered KBW with 3 hours left, nobody else was even active who wasn't voting for him.

I posted the case way more than 26 hours to go, you're attempting to make it sound like you had 'no choice but delay posting a retaliation' when it's not the case, you waited for another mslynch to occur then brought it up today since you knew I'd be gunning hard for you.

I had noticed and refuted your claim that I had other suspects (who were available) D1 when you made it, but it only occurred to me later how flat-out scummy it was that you would miss something so major when you've been supposedly combing over my D1 posts so thoroughly.

@mod:

Requesting replacement.

My internet has been out since I last posted, so I would've ended up being force replaced anyway.

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. I've been hoping someone would replace out or get replaced, now hopefully someone who can actually see what I'm talking about with Sucrose will replace into the town slot.

Good luck with that.

I've been leaning more and more town on Last Survivor. I have some mild suspicions of people who could be scum (you for example) but my other suspect slot, ArcAngel's has seemed pretty town since replacement, and I'm beginning to think ArcAngel really was more of a VI type than scum. On the other hand, I'm confident Regfan is scum in a way that I haven't been confident about any other player.

I understand your point on LS. But I kinda wanted more. I agree with your take on Angel. Goodmorning is doing a much better job. And you suspecting me? That's news to me.

LS has been contributing quite a bit more and I find myself agreeing with most everything he's said, so he's either town or doing a good job looking like it. I've glanced at Angel in a few other games, and it goes a long way to confirm that her play was VI-ish and isn't indicative on alignment. I am not particularly suspecting you, in that I haven't really found anything you've said scummy on it's own. The only player I think is scum with any confidence right now is Reg. But I have decent town reads on quite a few other players, including Goodmorning increasingly.

Alright, I

think

I see the justification for a mass claim. (though really it can be avoided if we just lynch Reg) I'll be happy to go first, but what do others think about it?

Lurker being the SK seems pretty unlikely.

[Sucrose]

I'm a VT.

[Sucrose]

Now Reg.

[Sucrose]

Now Reg.

I was thinking we'd make the scum claim first. So Sora next.

Who says you get to determine the order of claiming? You're either partners with Reg, or so wrongly convinced he's town that you're going to take everything he says as truth without bothering to really think about it, or his play.

I've claimed. Reg should go next. Sora can go after that.

Also, if I get lynched, I want Reg dead.

Don't

let Cognito talk you out of it. If we're both town the town's screwed anyway, but I'm damned certain this isn't a town v. town thing. Reg is scum. He's got to be.

[Sucrose]

Sucrose and Sora are competent enough that it really shouldn't be too surprising that they're not easy to get lynched. I've definitely been in this situation before.

Or because at least one of us is town.

Are you okay with lynching Sucrose then, goodmorning?

It's possible. I'm leaning towards her rather than Reg being Scum at the moment.

Okay, game's at an impasse. As long as it's not Lylo, this won't be a total disaster, but you MUST lynch Reg after I've flipped. Don't let him or Cognito talk you out of it. Agreed? You said yourself earlier you didn't think it was Town v. Town.

It's obvious he plays a good scum game, so he'll try, really hard.

[Sucrose]

Alright, based on just the votes (no reads involved here, not including myself): (This all assumes 3 scum)

Day 1:

2 scum on the levi wagon: {CES, Sucrose, Sora, LS, Lurker}
1 scum off the levi wagon: {Guille, Regfan, GM}

Day 2: Based on just votes, I'm willing to call Regfan and CES town. The argument for Lurker-town could also be made. Which leaves:

2 scum in: {Sucrose, Sora, LS, maybe Lurker}
1 scum in: {Guille, GM}

Reg's reads might be right on the money here, because I kinda doubt LS-scum.

@Reg:

If it came down to a choice between GM and Guille, which would you lynch and why?

Why do you suppose it's 2 scum on the levi wagon and 1 off? It could just as easily be the other way around. The lynch (I think) was mostly town-lead, scum didn't need to pile on the wagon to make it go through, levi was so bad town would have probably hanged itself without them steering the lynch at all. They could have been on or off that wagon as they saw fit. I think scum-analysis based on how you think the scum should clump on that lynch is tenuous at best.

And I don't get at all where you decide Reg is town based on his votes. Or really, CES, for that matter, although I've got a town-read on the slot.

[Sucrose]

Considering wagon speed (particularly with the levi wagon) I'm pretty willing to say there were 2 scum on each.

Reg hasn't been on a single mislynch, and when CES (well, Kito) has put down their vote looks good.

That's a pretty bad reason for considering Reg town, as there's only been two lynches and the first would have wound up as the day's lynch regardless of if scum jumped in or not.

[Sucrose]

Why did you throw the game?

[Sucrose]

Who did you target last night?

[Sucrose]

Oh, I thought he meant he forfeited the game by claiming scum. Ok, if Lurker's telling the truth, and there's also three scum, that means....

- If we direct Lurker's kill, and miss on both the lynch and the directed kill, town loses.

-If we direct Lurker's kill, and hit scum on either the lynch or directed kill, we can lynch Lurker the following day and go into MYLO.

- If we lynch Lurker, and he's telling the truth about not putting in a kill yesterday, we can lynch tomorrow, miss, and still be in LYLO the next day.

-If we direct Lurker's kill, and he lies and kills a town player other than the target, then town loses if the lynch was a miss. However, town can then act as kingmaker and deny Lurker the win in retaliation.

Correct me if I've missed anything, this stuff's pretty complicated.

First, we should continue with the mass-claim. One, because Reg is scum with scum suggestions, and Two, because it'll give us a decent idea of if the Mafia team is 2 or 3 people, and what our strategy should be.

LS, I think Reg's partner is most likely to be Guile or Cognito. Though Cognito is a little bold for it.

[Sucrose]

I'm a VT.
Gmorn next.

-----

Sucrose, you were saying you had a town read on the cognito slot earlier. So why is he now a potenital scum partner?
Lurker situation is def strange. I'm all for lynching him today, but I'm not sure I really understand the numbers.

I did have a town-read on the slot, if it wasn't for his interactions with Reg I'd still think it was town. But him deciding Reg is most definitely town for reasons I don't follow, and apparently following his views to a T, naturally makes me suspect him as a scum partner. It's almost too obvious, though. I'd suspect Guile slightly over him. The only ones I strongly think

aren't

a potential Reg-partner are Goodmorning and you, in that order.

This is what I got from Lurker:

"I'm an SK, I just lost the game to tell you that, have fun guys! ^_^"

I don't really know why the hell he claimed that, but from going through the different scenarios, there's a few paths, that had we taken him up on his offer (Like some people have suggested) would have led to his victory. I don't really get it either, though. Maybe he isn't bulletproof and thought he was going to get shot by mafia.

[Sucrose]

Looked up Sucroses meta and she's playing to her scum meta almost to the tee

and I have mixed memories of what the meta reading I did on Guile was about so that probably means I should look at it again. So yeah, tomorrow I'll get back around to reading that. If I don't you should bug me.

Realistically I don't see how Reg could think I'm playing to my scum-meta, much less be so utterly confident about it. And he's wrong, of course, but it's more indicative of him being scum rather than a misguided townie.

Lurker is going to start lying like hell now if he hasn't given up. Ignore him.

Unvote, Vote: Lurker

Will post more tonight if I have time.

Did you not notice you guys lynched a Tracker?

Shit, that is true. It totally forgot about it.

Wasn't our fault. I hammered with three hours till deadline; he posted once to dodge replacement, then never posted again. Regardless of whether there's two or three mafia, lynching Lurker is the right move today.

[Sucrose]

This response implies that you thought CES was a potential partner as soon as he replaced in...given that he started "following [Reg's] views to a T" as soon as he replaced in. But you said you had a town read on the slot in 590. Which is fairly late into the day.

On

it's own

, in isolation, I had a pretty town-read on the slot, especially on Kito. But, it makes a lot of sense that he could be scumpartners with Reg, who I'm almost certain is scum. With the caveat that it almost seems too obvious. If I thought Reg was town I wouldn't have Cognito very high on my scumlist.

Does that make sense?

Sora, if you thought he was claiming to have immunity to

lynches as well as night hits

then why throw down a vote on him in a situation where we've just gone into where lynching wrongly or not getting a lynch is a loss if there's three scum without hesitating at all? <snip>

Really? Really? Come on. It's so obvious Lurker is lying. You can't

possibly

think he's telling the truth about being lynchproof today, especially since he went ahead and claimed it! Not lynching him today makes it a hell of a lot easier for scum to win, though. It's pretty surprising that you'd put in so much effort to look up metas, but not enough effort to plot out that town gets one less lynch before game over if we don't lynch Lurker today.

[Sucrose]

VOTE: Regfan

Actually, I'd prefer my own lynch over a Sora lynch. Which seems ridiculous, but I can predict

exactly

what's going to happen if Reg manages to switch to Sora:
Sora's going to flip town, and Reg is going to go "Whoops, I was wrong about Sora being Sucrose's partner, but it's LYLO, we must lynch Sucrose." And then the rest of you would go for it.

Nah, I'd prefer my own lynch to another of Reg's choosing, because I want town to know that Reg has been completely full of it from the beginning about being

so

confident that's I'm scum, that I fit my scum meta to a tee, etc, all the stuff that I'm nearly 100% sure is not coming from misguided town. Reg's entire play for this game has been based around this case. If I can't lynch him today (which seems pretty likely) I at least want him lynched tomorrow.

Reg's partner is most likely Guile or Cognito, btw. In that order.

[Sucrose]

Why are you assuming a scum team of 2?

3 + SK seems unlikely. Plus, Reg's actions further make me think it's two.

[Sucrose]

Sucrose calling for her own lynch makes me a lot more confident that both Sora and she are scum. Sucrose wants to go out first because she's the goon, and she wouldn't be calling for her own lynch if Sora weren't her partner.

Will you lynch Reg if I flip town? Obviously, I'd prefer him to go first, but I'd much rather go if it takes him out too than let him pick off another player and then win by lynching me.

I realize that if there are 3 mafia, we're screwed, but if Reg with sincerity is calling for a Sora lynch, that makes me confident Sora's town, so that'd be a loss either way.

If I flipped scum, town could lynch Sora, and then lynch whoever they wanted at their leisure, but that's not going to be what happens. Reg seems to have most all of you convinced about the reality of his imaginary scum-team, but you

really

need to be critically looking at it again. And Reg, if you're town, you have single-handedly screwed us over.

[Sucrose]

And Reg, if you're town, you have single-handedly screwed us over.

This is blatant bullshit. I've given you a chance to convince me I'm wrong several times, I've invited you to look through my scum / town games and look at my meta and thus see that I'm very clearly town here which CES has also backed up. You've constantly refused to do so. I've also given you an out today in stating that I want Sora over you (I'm much more confident that his lack of stance and opinions and cruise-mode is scum just standing back and waiting for the game to lost via town on town battles) I have given you multiple opportunities to get us out of a completely losable position if we're both town and you've taken none of them. So there's no fucking way you're shifting blame on to me if you're town. None at all.

You have single-handedly been pushing mine and Sora's lynch since you've gotten here, effectively turning the game into a 1 vs. 1 between the two of us, and haven't put any consideration whatsoever on other players. Sorry, I'm not going to take your "out," since I know how easily it's going let you evade the noose and cinch a win if you are indeed scum; which given your ridiculous fake-confidence in me being scum with Sora, I still take for a given. I've

never

seen a town player replace into a new game and immediately come barreling out with such confidence while being completely and utterly wrong. You put in a great deal of effort regardless of whether you're town or scum, I'm not going to be able to get you lynched based on meta.

[Sucrose]

Okay, I'll make you a deal: I'll vote Sora today, if tomorrow you don't push for my lynch if Sora flips town. Somehow I don't think you'll take it.

[Sucrose]

We totally botched it by not treating today as LYLO. And I was part of the problem because I thought 2 mafia was more likely than 3. Still, if we hadn't all been stupid and voted at the start of the day, I think Reg and I would have ended up agreeing to lynch Sora.

[Sucrose]

Yeah....that went pretty badly for town. I think we suffered a lot of bad luck both from lack of a cross-kill and the no-claim PR. That last one probably hurt us quite a bit. Obviously, I tunneled, way, way too hard, but we also got backed into a corner pretty hard from D3 on.

Great job, Goodmorning, you moved your slot from one of my most suspected players to one of the least-suspected.