MINI 1423 Dark Souls: Prepare to die....YOU DIED

[VP Baltar]

holy crap, empking. what´s up? Didn´t know you were still around.

Yo, DDD.

Just a fair warning, there is no way in hell I will be able to keep the level of activity I used to play back in the day. I´ve been absent from the site for a reason and I´m making a special guest appearance for Sotty/kick ass flavor. /cue lame votes for ¨prelurking¨

vote: human destroyer

bros before hoes

[VP Baltar]

oh also, mondays and tuesdays are by far the worst days of my week, so you definitely shouldnt expect any indepth posts on those days - though I will still try my best to post on those days if I can.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: saintkerrigan

why?

[VP Baltar]

your username sucks and it was a stupid vote. feel free to answer the question now.

[VP Baltar]

[VP Baltar]

why is it dumb? it gets a reaction and inexperienced scum are more likely to make a big deal out of it than town are. seems pretty effective to me.

[VP Baltar]

backstab: tigerzone

[VP Baltar]

i haven't seen a daykill gambit work in a long time
but tiger's town as hell, you can stop fucking with him now

you just have to know how to pull it off and who to pull it off against. tigerzone is prob town.

humandestroyer is still a good vote.

[VP Baltar]

nacho looks good too. no other feeling strong enough to comment on just yet. we shall see where DDD goes. he should be obv to me soon enough

[VP Baltar]

I am inclined to believe naturally that she is town because the likelihood of pinning scum down on the first day on the first try is incredibly low.

wat? how is that reasoning?

[VP Baltar]

then because y'all are so pointless and stupid in your reasoning cuz it doesn't MAKE me scummy.

UNVOTE: VOTE: leviathan

I did put effort into those reads. Its my opinion and what I read. also just because I don't know something doesn't make me scummy cuz i haven't looked it up. no effort, does not imply scumminess. even though you can't read the amount of effort i DID put in to it.

well herp a derp if you believe that then no one should ever wagon anyone at the start of a game because theyŕe probably town.

Has anyone played with levithan before? is he normally this erratic and WHY THE HELL ARENT YOU VOTING SOMEONE. Thats what I really hate about your first post. Big long spiel and no vote whatsoever. Then you vote yourself.

[VP Baltar]

and because you are already thoroughly convinced that I am already scum and nothing I say that is truth is being considered. THAT is being ignorant and stubborn to other possibilities. the possibility that I ACTUALLY am innocent.

but then again you being scum would make sense since you just want a quick lynch of someone you already know is town.

this is some funny shit right here

[VP Baltar]

Levi is policy lynch material basically. Youĺl never tell his alignment unless he done goof somehow because everything he posts is poo poo. You don´t really need meta to see that, just the last two pages.

[VP Baltar]

Who're you reading as scum though.

unvote, vote:ddd

[VP Baltar]

Very happy with my vote

[VP Baltar]

I think anyone chaining lynches without a flip is dumb at best. Hey Levi, what do you think of this hawt DDD wagon?

[VP Baltar]

i don't think its much of a wagon to be honest. there are two posts that could tell of anything about his alignment. post 120 and 122 and i really don't see scumminess in either of them.

Well his non voting on page five says more than anything. Lazy scum is lazy.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar can we be boyfriends please (y/n/m).

Y )<3

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, why are you singling DDD out among the lazy/inactive players?

Gave him a chance to do better and he didn't.

[VP Baltar]

i don't think its much of a wagon to be honest. there are two posts that could tell of anything about his alignment. post 120 and 122 and i really don't see scumminess in either of them.

Well his non voting on page five says more than anything. Lazy scum is lazy.

If I was being lazy scum I would've placed a RVS vote to fit in, I would've made sure to make up a reason to vote someone or find a good person to follow with my vote because image is everything.

Though I don't know if I've ever played with townDDD, so.

Have you ever played a game with scumDDD?

You too can still fit in with the cool kids by saying who is scum. And don't say the guy who confirmed a town on page one. That's just sad. If you have no scum reads at this point, then I pity the fool...

[VP Baltar]

You too can still fit in with the cool kids by saying who is scum. And don't say the guy who confirmed a town on page one. That's just sad. If you have no scum reads at this point, then I pity the fool...

If you think I'm going to give you credit for an unimaginative reaction test you've got another thing comin'.

So am I your top suspect or what? You're really being coy about a pretty simple question.

[VP Baltar]

levi vs. restfermata seems like a town on town dispute to me. There is a ton of misunderstanding there that doesn´t really seem forced in any way, just like two noobs arguing.

Iec´s vote is :S and makes me question our whole relationship.

I think Peregrine is intentionally not posting and needs to die. So much so, I´ll vote him if DDD plunks a vote down there. Ball is in your court homey.

I get townie vibes from Empking and Nacho, but nothing too firm there yet.

[VP Baltar]

unvote, vote: peregrineV

yes, let´s talk indeed

[VP Baltar]

Yo Rest. Get wit this new awesome alliance of DDD and me and start voting for Peregrine

[VP Baltar]

Town(ish) read on Empking is mostly gut based. I've played with him a lot and he always vote hops without much explanation. You kind of just have to look at whether he's actually being opportunistic or simply being Empking. Not an easy read by any means but also probably not someone I'd lynch today simply because there are better options.

[VP Baltar]

Jason, can you answer my question from before. Why did you think my response to Iece was scummy and what changed your mind?

VP Baltar, I was pretty sure you were town, you are definitely the person making most sense here, but you're gonna have to explain that town read on Empking. I haven't seen anything from him that I could identify as a tell one way or the other.

Leviathan is impossible to read but I'm gonna assume he's town for now and if I we don't find anyone else scummier at the end of the Day, go with process of elimination. I don't see that happening at this point though so no point cluttering up the game trying to push him as scum right now.

I like the pressure on Peregrine but there are a couple other people that I'm more concerned about, specifically HD. I don't like the way he avoids any real scumhunting with his vote on Empking, then his blatant misrep of RF even after RF explains what he meant, plus using that to justify his vote, as if somehow RF became more scummy after RF explains what he meant. I just don't see where or how HD suddenly decided RF is a better place to put his vote after RF's response.

Unvote, Vote: HD

This is a good post. I can agree about HD as well. RF, while making some weak points at times, wasn't given a fair shot by HD in his analysis. Guilty until flipped innocent and etc. I could get down with his lynch as well.

[VP Baltar]

Yo Rest. Get wit this new awesome alliance of DDD and me and start voting for Peregrine

Why Rest of all people? And I'm not sure we agree on anyone other than PV but at least we've got that awesome-sauce wagon going for us.

I´m feeling town on Rest since she is too new to be scum organizing how she is playing. I submit her calling her suspects her top ¨scumtells¨ as support for my position on this.

And it is possible we don´t agree on anyone else, but I do know you´ll at least help me lynch PV by his scumpants, so I´m cool with that regardless of your alignment. Tigerzone should get on this lynch too. And SK, this is your chance to redeem yourself.

[VP Baltar]

*organizing should say orchestrating

[VP Baltar]

Since it's only 9 pages, I guess I'll do a re-read, but it'll have to be later.

You might be dead by ¨later¨

[VP Baltar]

as of right now the only people i'll be happy to lynch today are empking and iecerint.

Only saves on my list are Ice, Levi and Jason.

Meh. Add Rest to that.

Vote: SaintKerrigan

fing l

[VP Baltar]

>joined July 27, 2008
>calling her a newb

Yeah ok have fun with that

join date means nothing in terms of mafia competency. She joined before me and I´ve never seen her before even though I´ve played a mafia game or two in my day.

[VP Baltar]

Iecerint and Pv for scum team 2013. Calling that shit now.

[VP Baltar]

Well I hadn't posted for a bit and I was worried I was letting everyone down. Then I came back and looked at the thread.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think I agree with Iecerint-scum. But I am starting to come around on Peregrine.

Why?

Everyone/anyone: Is there a Pere case I can look at?

Click iso on his name. Case made.

[VP Baltar]

Town here reporting in.

[VP Baltar]

I am thinking of voting one of the replaced players

Um...why?

Waiting for the answer to this Iec.

[VP Baltar]

Damn younon refreshed page on my phone. Scratch that last post.

[VP Baltar]

Claim PV. Intent to hammer shown.

[VP Baltar]

why the fuck aren't we lynching someone who claims VT? Do you seriously think that the scum wouldn't have received fake claims with this much flavor? For everyone who just jumped off of PV, and for PV himself who said that his wagon sprang up quickly for no reason, tell me what is the reasoning behind TOWK wagon. Thought so.

tl;dr - Lynching PV is the logical choice today and will result in dead scum. Quit derping about flavor.

pedit - why did I ever doubt you DDD?

[VP Baltar]

i do doubt that scum has received fake claims with this much flavor

based upon what exactly? That doesn't make any sense.

i currently believe the VT claim.

based upon what exactly? That doesn't make any sense.


Seriously, though, how in the world do you think it's logical to design a game that can be broken by all the VTs claiming flavor and the scum sitting their with their hands in the air with no recourse to stop it?

[VP Baltar]

oh now I remember why I stopped playing mafia. No one on here is good at it anymore. 'cept DDD of course.

Listen up young uns, scum get fake claims, that's a fact. I don't understand this argument of "PV's reaction" makes him town. I do call it stubbornly hanging on RF. How did the way he claim make him more town for you? All he did was read a claim and give flavor to go along with that claim. Nothing more, nothing less. Tell me where i'm wrong.

[VP Baltar]

Note for the rest of you later, pay attention to how PereV and Iec have essentially zero interaction even though this PV wagon has been the talk of the town the past few pages. Notice how PV tries to clear Iec early on *jedimindtricks* modding meta.

Hey, Iec, what do you think of PV since you've said essentially nothing on his wagon whatsoever?

pedit -- remember: you said it, not me. soooooo

[VP Baltar]

But if you insist...

[VP Baltar]

oh now I remember why I stopped playing mafia. No one on here is good at it anymore. 'cept DDD of course.

Listen up young uns, scum get fake claims, that's a fact. I don't understand this argument of "PV's reaction" makes him town. I do call it stubbornly hanging on RF. How did the way he claim make him more town for you? All he did was read a claim and give flavor to go along with that claim. Nothing more, nothing less. Tell me where i'm wrong.

You keep forgetting that you haven't included an actual reason at any point in time. I've asked, you've tunneled, I've claimed, you've tunneled.
You haven't even bothered to try to give a reason, you really just keep repeating yourself.

Vote: VP Baltar

My reasons for voting you couldn't be more obvious that's why. As I said before, look at your iso...it's laughable.

You've done no scumhunting whatsoever today. You made some weak ass town calls early in the game with essentially no reasoning. You had a serious vote on Rest with no reasoning, then you lurked a bunch and when asked about that vote you said "IDK, something about bad logic." I'd think if it was legit you could actually remember it.

Then when your wagon actually got serious because of me and a few others forcing the issue, you come out of active lurking mode to go, "Hey boo hoo, no one is making an actual case on me therefore I can't be scum!"

You're so scum it hurts. Now you're OMGUSing me because I'm not letting you off the hook easy. I'd like to hear your actual reasoning for voting me that isn't, "you won't stop voting me and telling people to lynch me."

PS - Lynch PV nao. Lynch Iec tomorrow. That's all.

[VP Baltar]

It's true that we should lynch VT claims from a theory perspective (for the same reason that everyone shouldn't massclaim at the start of D1), though I've never actually made that argument in my life except as scum, SOOOO.

+1

lol

[VP Baltar]

Re: VPBaltar's VT-claim

tirade

Note the rhetorical attempt to paint me as crazy and belligerent. Typical scum tactics to disarm an attacker. Play the victim of crazy ol' VP.

[VP Baltar]

you should look up the definition of the word tirade.

[VP Baltar]

Your tirade didn't have anything to do with me.

You have also cut off the quote to mask that I say your tirade theory background is legit (even if I typically only voice it as scum). So much for wily discrediting!

Re: VPBaltar's VT-claim tirade

-- It's true that we should lynch VT claims from a theory perspective (for the same reason that everyone shouldn't massclaim at the start of D1), though I've never actually made that argument in my life except as scum, SOOOO.

I cut it out because it's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that you were using rhetoric to poison the well, which is true.

And yes, you should lynch VTs that claim in some cases. It just so happens in this case that PV is scum, so him claiming VT has nothing to do with why he should be lynched. Nor did I say it did.

[VP Baltar]

?

[VP Baltar]

[Pere] claiming VT has nothing to do with why he should be lynched. Nor did I say it did.

why the fuck aren't we lynching someone who claims VT?

Not sure why you'd go so far as to say that, but yeah, that was the whole point of your diatribe.

(You have since also said that you Peregrine should be lynched for not scumhunting.)

No, my point is people were using his VT claim as evidence of him being town. Which is stupid.

"diatribe"

[VP Baltar]

?

That means I am giggling at your rhetorical dictionary-wielding.

It literally doesn't fit the definition of tirade. So either 1) you don't know the definition of the word, or 2) you're using rhetoric to bolster your position. I don't think it's the former, but I figured I may as well give it a chance.

[VP Baltar]

It is kind of stupid HD, but in the end, Iec coming out to defend his scum buddy will just tar him after the flip. Sometimes you just have to give scum enough rope to hang themselves.

[VP Baltar]

I don't understand how you seeing yet another person claiming vanilla with similarities to PerV == PerV-scum.

This has been addressed and why you're wrong. You should read the past few pages. We'll wait.

[VP Baltar]

He's calling for a VT's lynch on the basis that we don't lose anything

quote where I said this pls

[VP Baltar]

I'm not really feeling chkflip as scum so much as idiotic. What is your bad feeling about PV? Is it because his wagon gained steam quickly? I think the fact that it fell apart just as quickly over nothing is a bigger red flag personally.

[VP Baltar]

oh yeah, he replaced tigerzone. Definitely not scum. I confirmed him town on page one with my gambit.

[VP Baltar]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious. It's hard to lynch scum on Day 1 because it's so easy for them to WIFOM their way out of the noose. Conversely, when a townie is being run up, there aren't multiple players banding together to divert the wagon and its much easier to make happen.

[VP Baltar]

I can understand that sounding far fetched to you since you don't have a ton of experience, but believe me, that's the way it goes on a pretty regular basis. That's part of the reason I'm being so forceful about the PV lynch. I"m quite convinced he's scum and unless I keep on the issue this wagon will easily fall apart.

[VP Baltar]

oh yeah, he replaced tigerzone. Definitely not scum. I confirmed him town on page one with my gambit.

I wouldn't have fallen for that gambit if I was scum, that's a really superficial way to confirm someone.

I would say his reactions were genuine. There's always some doubt of course, but I don't think he's experienced enough to have had that genuine appearing of a reaction if he was bluffing.

I don't know about HD, but I do know he supports a PV lynch. DDD is feeling town to me right now, and I"ve got extensive experience with him, so I trust that feeling to some extent.

What do you feel about Iec?

[VP Baltar]

Nacho, I'd like to hear your reasons for getting off the PV wagon. Far as I can tell, you just wanted the name of an ability and you left the wagon, which again, I don't understand since there is a 99% chance of there being flavored fakeclaims to keep the game from being broken.

[VP Baltar]

no it doesn't when PV was active lurking until his wagon got serious. There was no effort made to stop it, which I posit is why it grew so quickly. Had he been a good little scumbag, he would have tried to shut that down earlier. Fortunately for us, he didn't and that makes the artificial deflation even more blatantly scummy. When did you change your mind on

[VP Baltar]

scratch that last fragment of a sentence. meant to backspace that and accidentally posted it.

[VP Baltar]

We must be in the same mode then, because we post at the same rate. Does this mean you are active lurking also, or just trying to misrep me?

>activity log
>VP - 62 posts
> PV - 38 posts
> we post at the same rate
>misrepping you

Furthermore, I've been actively involved throughout this day and haven't made nonconfrontational town gut posts so people ignore me. If you think that you've been active in this game and are legitimately trying to find scum, then I find that pretty funny.

[VP Baltar]

I'm voting you for scum-tunneling, ignoring me, lack of scumhunting and your iso is laughable, and because your scum.

So, I was right. You're OMGUSing me. Explain lack of scumhunting please, with quotes.

[VP Baltar]

Chkflip, you're not making any sense. VP is not saying the fact that scum are given fake claims means PV is fake claiming, he's saying that it has no bearing whatsoever on PV's affiliation. He's calling PV scum for a completely different reason. Now, don't misinterpret this as me agreeing with VP, I'm actually inclined to agree with you PV is probably town and it is definitely premature to be calling for his death. That doesn't mean VP is scum though.

You wouldn't think. But town takes the opportunity to engage other players to find out their alignment. The first time I tried with VP he ignored it, and then at L-1 he tried to continue ignoring it.

lol, you've been given such a hard time I know. I must be scum because I'm not taking enough time to see you're town! hurrdee durrdee durr

chkflip is tunneling on me. Is he scum?

[VP Baltar]

Now your asking me if he's bussing you?
I doubt it.
1. This is how he plays as town. it comes across as scummy to me, but like 4 recent games in a row I can say town for now.
2. He could have left his vote on me at L-1 until I was hammered. Unless you think he's scum trying to hold out to lynch a PR, there's no scum reason to do so.

I'm asking, if by your poor logic, it makes him scum. You say no because

meta

. How convenient.

[VP Baltar]

PV, do you know what active lurking is? Are you familiar with the term and what that means? Serious question.

[VP Baltar]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious. It's hard to lynch scum on Day 1 because it's so easy for them to WIFOM their way out of the noose. Conversely, when a townie is being run up, there aren't multiple players banding together to divert the wagon and its much easier to make happen.

By your logic, anytime someone is voted to L-1, if they are NOT subsequently lynched, they're scum?

And since a sum of 2 people unvoted me, who exactly is diverting what?

This doesn't follow at all and is blatant strawmanning. I'll consider that you conceding I'm right on it.

[VP Baltar]

But the sum of your reads seem to be Ice is scum with me because he's not voting me.

No, wrong again. Iec is scum because he very conspicuously avoided mentioning you at all when your wagon was the center of attention, and didn't finally make mention of you or take a stance until I outright asked him to. Avoiding discussing one of the biggest points of the day...that's a scumtell for sure. It shows a desire to avoid getting tangled in confrontation.

[VP Baltar]

Weren't some people making it seem like there are two scum in this game? I was looking back over the OP and rules, and I'm not seeing where it states that. I could be missing it. Anyone know where this info came from?

[VP Baltar]

Can we please get Nacho, TheOneWhoKnocks, leviathan and chkflip to please actually participate in this game. I feel like we're treading water here and we only have 4 days left. We need to be moving ahead with some kind of a lynch here soon, particularly if it ends up not being PV because we still need time for a claim and to evaluate that. I'd be willing to make a compromise lynch on Iecerint if PV absolutely isn't going to happen.

[VP Baltar]

PerV already claimed, but you don't believe him. So yeah lets get some more claims out there for you not to believe.

This is the dumbest shit I've ever read. I've said lynch him. You said no. If anyone is to blame for forcing more claims, it's you. This is seriously the caliber of logic you have to bring to the table.

[VP Baltar]

I've lynched Peregrine multiple times before, ended up meta'ing him to save myself the headache of dealing with him normally ever again. This seems like the town meta that I've lynched before, but give a moment to see if he can't do these same things as scum.

I'd be interested to hear this expounded upon because I don't see town at all.

[VP Baltar]

you've got to be trolling this game at this point

[VP Baltar]

no joke:
Username:chkflip
Location:The attic

Age:26

[VP Baltar]

(e.g., shift to theory-reasons to lynch claimed VT on whom there is not a very compelling case)

My case is plenty compelling. Much more so than your reasons for voting me. Second, I never said we should lynch him BECAUSE of the VT claim. I said that was a really dumb reason to call him town, as fake claims can be (and likely are) in play.

[VP Baltar]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying scum have a group of people working toward a united goal (getting the lynch off their members) and therefore are more effective at stalling/dismantling wagons than random townie functioning ostensibly on his/her own.

[VP Baltar]

ok...

first thing, thanks

second thing

From what I can see, your VT Claim is the main thing that's gotten you off the hook, the specificity of it more so

but I'm VT, so if I claim, would that make the wagon Knock received Disappear as well?

I'm not following town mindset here, and other then Lurking I can't figure out what my two predecessors have done, nor can I find anything of use from either of them.

I'm still making my way through the game, though I don't like where this is headed. I also have a bad feeling about VP and with only three days left, I don't have the time to play with my usual "no voting strategy" so

Unvote
Vote: VP Baltar

So you agree with me that it's a bad reason to unvote him. I don't understand "bad feelings." Please give specifics.

[VP Baltar]

who is diverting my wagon?

as I think I've clearly stated, I believe Iec has been and continues to make attempts to derail your wagon. He's played more than enough games to know that flavor is null in any well constructed game. He's also played enough to know that Sotty/Zach are not stupid players who are going to make a game that is breakable via flavor, therefore reinforcing the previous point.

chkflip is also derailing your wagon in a way, but I think he's just town who is quite easily influenced by scum and also is completely incapable of following logic when presented with it. I can't do anything about that other than ignore him at this point because I already tried to engage him with logical explanations (albeit aggressive ones, as I'm prone to do) and got no result.

[VP Baltar]

But, when I looked at the six votes on me, townBP immediately saw that as a scum move, because scum try to stay alive, but town do not.

This never happened.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I hate to do this kind of thing, but clearly my message is getting lost in all this back and forth. I need to point out just how much PV is active lurking and not legitimately scumhunting in this thread. I'm going to give you a (very) brief analysis of his posts so everyone can clearly see how much he's coasting this game. Post numbers are chronologically by iso and I'll separate them into three easy to follow categories. I'll attempt to be as unbiased as possible here. It'd be best if someone else did this post, but I don't think anyone has the initiative regarding this point, so here we go:

Standard banter (null):
1- opening post
6 -vla
18 - demands DDD give reasons why he's scum
19 - vla
25 - claims VT
26 - answers claim question
27 - ""
28 - quotes Iec's defense of him! null in terms of this analysis, but let it stand on the record if PV is lynched and flips scum
29 - answers claim question
30 - ""
42 - explains why he wasn't posting. claims he was busy with other games
50 - gives game roundup for Ms Marangel

Posts with little to no active scumhunting:
3 - talks about SK self vote without taking a stance. follows tiger zone general opinion
5 - starts to talk theory about SK self vote more, still no solid position given. IIOA
7 - votes rest for no reason
8 - gives townreads for no reason
9 - says hes not about fluff, provides no content
10 - unvotes rest, says he doesnt' remember why he voted
11 - says he'll reread the thread later
12 - adds rest to town list, votes SK... no reasoning given
13- says tiger is town again based upon earlier (my gambit). this is a super safe position to take since essentially everyone agreed
14 - explains vote on SK as being because he's not contributing enough...how does this not apply to several people?
15- response to my joking post that he didn't get
16- cites "meta" as his reasons for two town reads, "town mindset" for the other two. Couldn't be any more vague to avoid scrutiny
20 - says he's vote SK because he has enough town reads and he'd like to "get a grip on a null player" What? He said SK wasn't contributing enough above and that's why he's voting him. If you're voting a null player for that, you're just not trying to scumhunt, I'm sorry.
21 - says he'll analyze his wagon. complains because people aren't making cases on him.
22 - defends why he's been active elsewhere and not this thread
24 - benefit of the doubt once is fine (see post 23). repeatedly bitching about people not making cases is simply being lazy and not scumhunting.
31 - again complains people aren't making a full out case against him
32 - calls Rest town for "nature of her posts." explains SK vote as being "a better vote" (even though he was a null player). Immediately says HD's reasoning is invalid because he didn't state it with his vote. "cart before the horse." by this logic, no one's reasoning can be valid because he said everyone on his wagon was voting him for no reason. This is a classic scum tactic to avoid having to take any kind of offense. It's him playing the victim and passing it off as legitimate scumhunting, which it's not.
33 - agrees with chkflip, says Empking must be lynched before lylo, regardless of his alignment.
35 - blatant OMGUS me. Says I never gave reasoning for voting him (though there was a reason in my vote post. I said he was intentionally not posting, ie lurking, as I've stood by. Additionally, and you'll see this later, any reasoning given for voting him is automatically invalid because it wasn't given with the initial vote! cart before the horse, etc.)
36 - flippant comment and tells HD to vote me because he doesn't need a reason, which is simply him taking a pissy defense of his OMGUS
37 - +1 to an Iec post
38 - response to my very detailed analysis of his play all game. Gives lame excuse for his Rest flop, falsely states he's posting as much as me and pulls the same "cart before the horse" BS he did above. zero analysis, plenty o' scum whining.
39 - says I didn't engage with him, therefore, he's the victim of big bad VP
40 - completely misreps me as saying that anytime someone is voted to L-1 and they aren't lynched, they must be scum
41 - misreps DDD
43 - answers my questions, says my reasoning for voting him "doesn't really fly"
44 - doesn't give an answer to my asking him why he's voting me, which is something he's demanding from others. Not scumhunting, but total double standard!
45 - more answering my questions and saying I never gave reasons for voting him...except I already did several posts ago.
47 - answers my question
48 - huge ass misrep of what I said, which no one else seemed ot have trouble following
49 - continued misrep
51 - pointless reply
52 - repeats a stupid question he asked before that the answer should have been obvious to, but I answered anyway out of the kindness of my heart!
53 - pontificates more on his misrep about the scum banding together post I made. this is like 4 posts now where he continues. How does a town player not get it at this point?


Posts with active scumhunting:
2- votes 4trouble
4- engages 4 trouble
17 - asks HD who his town reads are
23 - I hate to even call this scumhunting, but I said I would be unbiased. Quotes votes on his wagon and says no reasons were given ( even though mine clearly had a reason in the voting post and DDD was obvious as well).
34 - says DDD has no right to vote him, which is scummy. asks ddd why he thinks Jason is town, so I'll give him this one.
46 - again complaining no one is giving reasons, but I'll give him scumhunting points for a weak (and inaccurate) analysis of his wagon.
54- misreps me again and says that no matter what he posts, I call it scummy. Playing the victim once more, but hey what the hell, let's pretend he's actually "scumhunting" me this way. I'll give it to him.

Well there you go, there's all his posts. Judge for yourself. Iso him and read along in numerical order, see if I"m wrong. (sorry about the posts being one number off...forget isos start at zero until I got too far along to retype all the numbers). I'm sure you'll disagree with me on some points because I know I have a bias in thinking he's scum, but that's simply because he's so damn scummy. I stand by my statement that he's been active lurking a majority of the game, and this analysis shows that pretty clearly. 2 days left, please lynch this scumbag.

[VP Baltar]

notice how much of the time he's in the defensive position. Shit, that's a sexy ass post. Even I didn't see the full scope of his active lurking. Lynch PV now for great justice.

[VP Baltar]

I think the real question all of this comes down to is: do you believe a town player would post that much while providing that little analysis of play throughout the game? I don't believe that's true. I believe town players actively try to look at the situation around them and push the conversation forward with probing analysis. That's the nature of being town, you are TRYING to find scum.

Scum, on the other hand, are not trying to find scum. They fall back into defensive positions and are reactive rather than active. That's the case with PV in my personal opinion.

pedit - such a bullshit response to something you admit to having not read. Just don't bother. You can keep your vote on me. I don't really care where you are voting chkflip.

[VP Baltar]

Debonair Danny DiPietro: 1 (JasonT1981)

Seriously, what the hell is this about Jason. You've been very lazy this game too. idgi

[VP Baltar]

amished's ghost is turning in his grave right now

man I totally forgot about that tell too. hmm. though it does have a lower efficacy for women.

[VP Baltar]

Either way, I'll leave my final reads for future days.

lol, I'll play the game later if you let me live. yerp..


DDD, what do you think of Nacho's pointing out the Amished tell?

[VP Baltar]

PEDIT:
what tell?

I'm not ready to discuss specifics of it just yet. There are people in this game that know it and many who probably don't.

[VP Baltar]

ftr, I don't think Marangal's switched stance on PV is a tell of anything. It's very legitimate that she posted earlier on gut and didn't think he was and then read my comprehensive case closely and thought he was. That point is dumb. Amished tell is much more interesting.

[VP Baltar]

I thought you were saying you were going to leave doing your final reads for future days. If you were saying that you'll leave us with final reads, then my apology. I didn't read that way to me.

[VP Baltar]

dumbest lynch ever. If she flips scum, color me wrong, but we had two days left and there was no reason for that.

as I was going to say, had I been given the chance, Amished and I discussed his tell at length because we always hydra'd together and I was around when he was developing/refining the tell. He came to the conclusion that it couldn't be applied to female scummers consistently because they are more inclined to understand how other players could find their slot scummy based upon a predecessor. I've never seen it accurately applied to a female scummer, but that's not to say it couldn't be if read correctly. It's a tough issue.

anyhow, lynch the fuck out of PV tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

well it wasn't the dumbest lynch ever. that's too harsh. It was way too quick though. If she's town, there's definitely scum involved and they were definitely trying to save PV. Reasoning being, if PV was town, scum would have easily joined my cause long ago and powered his lynch through.

[VP Baltar]

vote: PV

This should be up and down frankly. I don't see any legitimate way he's not scum and I'd like an explanation from anyone as to why he's not (that is more than 'he feels town') who thinks he is not at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Who are the strong players who should have died overnight, Iec?

[VP Baltar]

And just for the record, I would like the day to go on a bit. Even though PV is obv-scum, let's get everyone talking and out his buddies today.

[VP Baltar]

He's at L-2 right now. Iec, why are you voting him if you have such doubts he's scum?

[VP Baltar]

also VPB can you talk about your other reads a little bit?
i feel you are on fire this game but I have no idea what your other scum picks are
i feel good about there being scum in {Iecerint, Empking} and I feel good about HD scum.

would like your help sorting out {RF, DDD, FT} though because while I feel pretty good about them, I'm not as confident as I'd like to be.

Iec is my number two scum pick as of right now. The way he was and kind of still defending PV doesn't seem natural to me. He also got super quiet after PV was initially run up, which was strange considering he had been more vocal earlier on when I was attacking DDD. I think I was pretty clear about that. Number three is more of wildcard though. I think if there are three scum, the third person has been laying back in the bushes on the PV stuff.

I'm fairly certain DDD is town, since he also read PV right for the same reasons I was feeling and didn't waiver on him at all. I think you're probably town too. Empking is still anyone's guess. I always end up going back and forth on him a million times. I"m not certain about RF being town now either, but I remember feeling she was earlier. It's probably just jitters. I need to do some rereading to really narrow down that third slot. HD I could maybe see, but I need to hear the argument for it.

[VP Baltar]

also, discussion about who killed Jason isn't particularly productive, imo. There isn't enough information there to suss out a likely motivation, at least right now. I think more important to look at is PV as scum and his interactions with other players.

[VP Baltar]

No one is saying PV is scum because Jason was NK. That doesn't make sense.

[VP Baltar]

No, I'm saying that scum made a very focused effort to save PV from lynch yesterday. Think about it, if PV is a townie, then why was there so much resistance to his lynch? Wouldn't scum be just as happy to have lynched him yesterday? Anytime you have competing wagons like that, you need to look at the flow of things and whether it was natural resistance to his wagon, or scum resistance. There were obviously townies that didn't want PV lynched yesterday, and that's fine, but without a focused effort to halt his lynch, I think it would have gone through. Does that make sense to you?

[VP Baltar]

basically, no. If Peregrine was town, scum would have hammered his lynch through then they could have said I was scum today and gotten me lynched. Three votes is a lot in a normal game and can greatly influence the tide of the game.

[VP Baltar]

That's a terrible analysis. you don't have to be on a wagon then get off to prevent it from happening. you just have to never vote it.

[VP Baltar]

scum shooting him would be laughable.

Well, that's true, it doesn't make much sense. 'S why I think at least one of the more obvious kills is scum. A separate kill being blocked is also possible, but the prior probability is low.

So just so I'm following this correctly, if PV were town, one of DDD or I is likely scum, correct?

[VP Baltar]

so you think if PV is scum, one of us was bussing him rather than getting an easy lynch yesterday?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not following what you're saying. You seriously think I was faking that scumhunting?

[VP Baltar]

no

[VP Baltar]

I'm just curious at what point are people actually going to start listening to me and lynching scum. I'm not trying to be an a-hole here, but you guys seriously need to start considering what I'm saying as being accurate. I've been around the block a time or two.

[VP Baltar]

We don't want to lynch PV because Jason died. Please read the game.

[VP Baltar]

no, we're lynching PV. Are you scum?

[VP Baltar]

That was a bad shot DDD. Though annoying, chkflip was obv town. Chastising you and you can't retort. Tell it to the dead thread homie.

Hey, Iec, yesterday you said that if PV flipped scum then one of DDD or I was def scum. DDD flipped town. Why do you suddenly think I"m town?

Hey, HD, what was your reasoning for voting PV again? I'd like a full case considering your iso shows you pretty thin on actual reasoning for voting him. TIA

Hi, Nacho. You ready to bust some serious scum brains today? PS, you better not be tricksy scum or I'll find out. TIA

[VP Baltar]

I read the rest of your posts yesterday. They looked like waffling after you were challenged on a dumb position. I wouldn't say that I get the impression you're backing entirely from that position yesterday, simply that you were forced to backpedal and still were trying to hang onto a thread of it as being possible because the Jason kill "made no sense." I don't know if I buy that I'm suddenly towntown in your book.

I'm going to read back over your response and voting time HD. I'll get back to you where I feel with that.

[VP Baltar]

^@iecerint

[VP Baltar]

What does an encoder do btw? I don't know if I"m familiar with the role. Anyone know?

[VP Baltar]

I want to hear a little more from you than that FourTrouble. I don't think anyone's getting off with unexplained votes at this point. Not with two townies biting the dust last night. We need to be more precautious than that.

[VP Baltar]

did anyone receive a message at night? I know I've heard of the role, but I can't place my finger on it or find it in the wiki.

[VP Baltar]

levi's probably town imo.

[VP Baltar]

Town:
VP
Nacho
Leviathan
FourTrouble
RestFermata

Lynch pool:
Iecerint
Human Destroyer
Empking

Vote: Iecerint

Basically, I think Iec was doing his damnedest to save PV even as PV continued to tie his own rope. I think Iec also was trying to keep the door open yesterday so DDD and I wouldn't appear too confirmed townie, which is a really bad thing for scum when two forceful players get confirmed town. Fortunately, I think nacho might be able to step up into that role and we can ride this thing to victory.

That's basically the way I see it without a full reread of the game right now, which I plan to do maybe like Wednesday. Nacho, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that list. You too Rest. Everyone else can comment too of course, but those are the two I'm primarily interested in hearing from right now.

[VP Baltar]

what's your scum list levi? In fact, I'd like to hear where everyone stands at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Hi ThAd. Good to see you again. Been busy the last few days guys, but I will have content for you soon.

[VP Baltar]

Because he calls you town I assume.

Anyhow, lots of stuff here to work with now. ThAd's analysis posts aren't bad. I do think the clear move today is to lynch Iec. He's the safest bet for hitting scum I believe. What I want to do is figure out who could be a potential PV-Iec partner before the day is out. That will give a clear game plan to follow.

[VP Baltar]

So you've essentially claimed VT, but you're saving your name. So your scum, and that's a pretty poor attempt at AtE.

No, I had already mentioned that I thought VP's read on RestFermata/ThAdmiral is colored by his read on me.

It has nothing to do with my read on you. Scum bus all the time (in fact, I'd say it's the optimal scum play at this point after the ball of flame PV went down in) and simply because someone calls another person scum doesn't mean I would consider that person town. I've felt RF was on the town side of things for a while now simply because she seemed too aloof of some basic concepts to be scum on the con. I could be wrong of course, but that'd be some pretty genius scum play and I just wasn't getting that vibe from her. ThAd hasn't really been here long enough to color that viewpoint one way or another.

[VP Baltar]

I have not claimed.

If you're going to lynch me, you should go ahead and lynch me. VP needs to get my flip before all his reads are messed up.

lol, didn't see this post before. p. funny.

[VP Baltar]

Hey HD, what do you think of Iec? Have we heard from you about him...I could be forgetting.

[VP Baltar]

I've felt RF was on the town side of things for a while now simply because she seemed too aloof of some basic concepts to be scum on the con.

Um, if I'm not mistaken, RestFermata was the player who came up with "bosses are scum; heroes are town" D1.

I also figured that as soon as I saw my role PM. Pere's fakeclaim confirmed my suspicions. I don't really see that as damning evidence.

[VP Baltar]

It's pretty funky that HD strongly thinks I'm town when he's my #2...

You do realize I've townread you the entire game, right?

You still have a town read on him even now?

[VP Baltar]

I figure I'll go ahead and finish claiming. I'm VT. The flavor of my voting ability is called "Blizzard."

The fact that I am VT is what made me sensitive to everyone claiming VT in the early game. As scum, I would never have tried to annoy DDD or VP in the early game. I think these are the clearest indicators that I am town from a neutral POV.

The only thing I'm quite sure of is that levi is town. I think RestFermata/ThAdmiral is the most questionable slot IMO.

You tried to annoy me? I don't remember that. I remember nailing PV and then catching you out for waffling/defending him for pretty poor reasons. Then you started to lash out as scum tend to do when they are caught and don't have a good defense. I don't think any of that was your impetus.

Also, I thought you were pretty sure just a few pages ago that I was town...what changed?

[VP Baltar]

Hey HD, what do you think of Iec? Have we heard from you about him...I could be forgetting.

Oh hey, that was convenient, just decided to come back to this game

I think I've said he was a townread multiple times now, comes from an early period where I really liked his push on RestFermata.

I haven't really been paying attention to this game but unless I really missed something drastic I don't want him lynched.

This reasoning is really weak. He has all kinds of connections to confirmed scum, which I've been pointing out all game pretty much. Saying he's town with impunity based upon and "early period" push on RestFermata doesn't really hold water with me. What has he done recently that makes you think he's town? What do you think of his interactions with PV?

[VP Baltar]

I very much stand by what i said. None of those quotes change that.

[VP Baltar]

If you think I am scum who said RAWR TAKE THAT VP/DDD, then that is fine. Kind of zany business IMO, but fine.

But it is simply inaccurate to argue that the well-documented past did not occur.

It's not well documented. There is maybe one or two early quotes where you weren't already on the defensive from me and that's being generous. To imply you were tangling with me or DDD of your own volition is laughable.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, this day is not done by any means. Iec is caught scum and we are going to suss out who the third is before the day is out so it is smooth sailing to victory. Nacho is fairly unlikely to be scum too, fyi.

[VP Baltar]

Yes many times. Scum inherently don't enjoy the day phase. It forces them to either a) continue talking and creating opportunities to draw connections between them and their buddies or b) forces them to lurk to avoid drawing connections, which in itself can be a scum indicator (hello PV).

In what ways does the town benefit by rushing a day phase?

[VP Baltar]

This is probably the dumbest defense I've ever heard right after PV's "no one is giving reasons for my wagon."

[VP Baltar]

Empking may just be the last scum. I'm having a hard time seeing scum not bussing their bros at this point in a hail mary.

[VP Baltar]

I want your opinion on hd from day one. Do you think he, as a partner to pere, would have stayed on his wagon like he did? That's the main thing making me question him as a scumspect.

Also four probably needs to be looked at closer. He's been sorta flying under the radar.

I think your point about HD is completely legit and is really what's keeping me back from saying for sure he's the third scum. It's hard to see him bussing like that, when a player with seemingly more experience (Iec) made an effort to save PV.

[VP Baltar]

You know, I don't like Iece as scum atm. ThAd/HD makes much more sense.

Unvote

What in the fucking fuck. Seriously.

[VP Baltar]

I think his point there is that people normally get positive feelings about people who call them town, but we both voted him after his post. The reason is [obviously] that levi's post was terrible, but ThAd wants to continue to make Levi have a town read on him, so he's going into this "omg levi56 was obvtown from the start" to simultaneously undermine us and Levi-feelings-stroke.

Don't think Nacho's voting for me atm. I have votes from VP, ThAd,

you

, and EmpKing. In the vein of what ThAd is pointing out, I have to admit that the degree to which VP is looking happy with himself makes it really hard for me to mainly my Cap Of Rationality on that point.

Why shouldn't I be happy with myself. I'm 90 percent certain you will flip scum. Caught PV day 1. Pretty good days work I'd say.

[VP Baltar]

We've gotten good discussion out of the day, so that's not true at all. Still a dumb unvote and a little scummy considering.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, I came in today wanting to lynch you because there is more than enough evidence there. I've already pointed out your connection to PV before today and it is increasingly obvious you're scum from how very little legitimate scumhunting you've done. You post things and they are almost all crap points. I'm not going to entertain them as being legitimate just because you post them. That's not being unfair to you, it's saying if you're not wowing me and overwhelmingly showing me how you are town compared to your overwhelming connections to PV, then you very much deserve to be lynched.

tl;dr
I don't need to convince you that you're scum.

[VP Baltar]

I "tunneled" on PV too remember. I'm sure the case on him was real crap too, as you say. Ol' VP just gets dumb lucky and now he's picking on you. It's a sad tale (and one missing all the finer details!)

You should vote yourself and be the great martyr for Allah.

[VP Baltar]

I never said you thought I was scum.

I iterated all the Day 1 interactions where PV was buddying up to you. I pointed out you trying to discredit both DDD and I when a town player would have simply seen that we destroyed a scum. Your scumhunting today is incredibly weak. You made a big pointless show of not claiming initially, and then when that didn't get votes off of you, you went ahead and full claimed anyhow. You tried to clear yourself with hypotehtical "I wouldn't do that as town arguments" that weren't even consistent with your play, ie trying to trump up your own aggressiveness as if you've been some kind of townie badass this game. You're strawmanning the case against you as "I didn't want to lynch PV," which isn't the case at all. Nacho didn't want to lynch PV...he looks pretty town to me.

This is all just off the top of my head without even having to look back at the thread, as I'm sure there are many other things I'm missing.

[VP Baltar]

I used quotes because I was quoting you. That's what quotes are for. My reasoning being that the word you used was intended in a negative connotation, so I wanted to carry your definition across to my point, which was that what you're trying to claim was a bad move resulted in a dead scum...so clearly not a bad thing.

You proceed to quote me in your second graf there, which is presumably for the same reason I just stated, thus making your first point completely stupid and irrelevant. But on that point of "discrediting" -- it was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain that PV was scum after the D1 flip. Wagons on dueling townies don't happen that way, ever. So, yes, you attempting that brief discredit of VP/DDD early before his flip is bad because it shows you attempting to save him heavy-handedly. You quickly backed off when it was obvious PV was well past the point of saving, which was a miscalculation on your part.

re: attacking VP/DDD. Give it a rest already. It's not like we're fucking god-tier players. There are lots of people on this site who are better than me. Also, you have just as much mafia experience as I do. You're not a noob and are certainly aware that only attacking weak players is an easy way to get caught out as scum because the things you end up attacking them about are often just poor general play. This is all of course if I were to concede you were on the offense at all, which I think is being generous with interpretation.

[VP Baltar]

If I "quote" that ThAd wants FourTrouble to "vote" his "partner," it doesn't sound like I am reminding the reader that ThAd did something; it sounds like I am mocking or calling attention to the inappropriateness of whatever usage I'm referencing.

This is literally what I just said.

[VP Baltar]

Now you're suggesting Rest was faking a crisis. She's town, you're scum.

Emp, I'm ready to end this day, let's power it through.

[VP Baltar]

Yo HD or 4trubs... let's get with the getting here. One of you is town. First one to hammer gets a gold star in my book.

[ ]===========

===========[ ]

[VP Baltar]

That vote count is pretty representative of how unclear today is right now. ThAd, why'd you claim when you have no useful information?

[VP Baltar]

Your whole case on him is that he said he'd be willing to hammer Pere then never followed that suspicion, correct?

[VP Baltar]

what about his play the rest of the game?

[VP Baltar]

I would just like someone to make a convincing case on someone. I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but that's not a lot to lynch on this late in the game. I feel like I've been dictating the conversation a bit too much, and I was obviously not entirely on the right track. I've yet to see a sexy case on someone since PV. (though Iec case was sexy, still was wrong)

[VP Baltar]

We are waiting Nacho.

[VP Baltar]

mass claim could give info. It's not a terrible idea. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why ThAd claimed unprompted with nothing but useless info though. I don't see how that's a useful town move really.

[VP Baltar]

VPB and FT, I think you're both town. Thoughts?

ok. thanks.

[VP Baltar]

as for my play. why would you push MY lynch empking? there are a lot better candidates out there unless you are scum and trying to obvi lynch a townie to better push the odds for scum. nice try though.

start better looking as town.

This kind of shit makes my gut twinge. It's the same crap pere was doing before he was lynched.

[VP Baltar]

I might be OK with lynching HD. ThAd actually makes a semi decent case on the surface. I'd like to do some massive rereading before I commit to anything at this point.

I think Lev is kind of 2dumb4scum honestly.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, there very much is. His play doesn't really indicate someone who is cognizant of his actions at all. Scum do make some effort to control their image, whether that's effective or not.

[VP Baltar]

mass claim could give info. It's not a terrible idea. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why ThAd claimed unprompted with nothing but useless info though. I don't see how that's a useful town move really.

Well to be honest it was more of a "me" move. I felt the day was going to turn in to me defending myself and I felt like nipping it in the bud. Also is it completely useless? I don't want to toot my horn but I think it's more or less cleared me. Why, you ask:
1. town has to have more than 1 power role, right?
2. how else would I know that no one, like a doc, targeted vp baltar?

It's a fair point. I don't think you're cleared because of it. Perhaps scum have a role cop and are able to make an educated guess at this point as to whether there is a doc or not. While in most cases it would indicate town it's certainly not that way for all cases and its simply not the move I would have made as a town player. Not everyone plays like me of course.

[VP Baltar]

I could be okay with mass claim. If we're doing popcorn claim, I'd like to see HD or Emp go first.

[VP Baltar]

Let's mass claim. I changed my mind. You start 4Trouble.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I think majority are OK with mass claiming. 4Trouble goes first. Chop chop son.

[VP Baltar]

vote: human destroyer

[VP Baltar]

Prod dodge, still waiting for turn to claim

You can easily contribute while you wait.

Claim Lev.

[VP Baltar]

Dudes we have 2 days just claim if you are on.

So far we've gotten two claims. Worst scenario is getting the people who actually look alright to claim while letting scummier people skate on by.

basically this. It's complete bullshit. If your'e not claiming and you're next you need to die. Unfortunately, that'd probably be lynching town, so he's just fucking us.

I'm finding Nacho's FourTrouble case somewhat convincing. After I finish work today, my schedule frees up a bit and I can actually put some time in here.

[VP Baltar]

unvote

HD, why wouldn't you claim to kill ThAd scum?

Why did you protect me 3 times?

@fourtrouble - Where do you think the other kill came from if Levi is lying?

[VP Baltar]

Let's go HD, what do you have to say about that?

[VP Baltar]

Here's a hint, HD or ThAd is getting lynched today. End of story. This is the only subject worth discussing at this point so close to deadline.

[VP Baltar]

I'm Black Dragon Kalameet, VT.

I'm thinking HD and Fourtrubs. Up and down. I'm not seeing Levi scum and 4T is angling whatever he can to get suspicion away from him. Classic scum move.

[VP Baltar]

If HD is scum, for sure Empking is scum just based on HD's completely unrealistic suspicion of Empking throughout the entire game.

Why wouldn't he push him irrationally as scum? That doesn't make sense. It's null.

[VP Baltar]

lol, nicely done Nacho. Thanks for stepping up today. You too ThAd. *brofist*

[VP Baltar]

How exactly is Emp scum with Pere and HD again?

[VP Baltar]

who's scum, emp?

[VP Baltar]

Levi, who do you think is scum?

[VP Baltar]

still don't believe in 2dumb4scum emp?

[VP Baltar]

I'm basically thinking 4trouble has to be it, but it's always good to think about it for a bit if it seems too easy.

[VP Baltar]

How the fvck is Empking town? You guys need to take another look at PV's ISO, HD's ISO, and compare the way they interact with me and the way they interact with Empking. Take a look at Empking's ISO, compare that to my ISO.

Trust me, I'll give you a fair shake and look at all those things. I haven't voted you as of this time, so that pretty much implies I"m not jumping to any conclusions. I just see you as much more desperate right now to "prove" you had no connections with scum. It doesn't feel right.

[VP Baltar]

Well, personally, if I was you and I knew I was town and was pretty certain empking was scum, I wouldn't really be desperate. Even if I was lynched, town could just easily lynch the obv scum the following day. Hence why I think think reeking of desperation is more likely to come from scum than town.

[VP Baltar]

Link to your example please

[VP Baltar]

The thing is, FT, I just don't follow your line of thought on Empking. You're suggesting that HD was crazy bussing BOTH of his partners from the start. That's a pretty suboptimal strategy, imo. Doing it to one might be a way to try to make yourself bulletproof from suspicion later on, but doing it to both is a dangerous game that's going to result in you losing more often than not. Meanwhile, your voting pattern shows a defense of PV and HD was trending toward your "next day" suspect for a while. If you're town, I'm sorry but that just looks really terrible and it's bad circumstance it ended up that way. I don't think you are though.

vote: fourtrouble

[VP Baltar]

Let's hear the pitch boys.

[VP Baltar]

I essentially see one of two scenarios as being feasible. 1) Emp is the last scum. 2) Nacho is not Sif, but rather a third party survivor who is one shot immune (to balance vengeful). I'm guessing his role would be something like Lautrec.

Since the second scenario occurred to me it's hard to shake that nagging suspicion because it fits the play a little bit. I'm not convinced of either entirely yet.

[VP Baltar]

Derp. Fair enough I'm an idiot. I'm just having a hard time seeing either of you as scum. Early game read bias. Obv one person has to be.

[VP Baltar]

Mostly because I think you're competent enough to fool me easy enough. Not that emp isn't, I just think if he's scum it'd stick out to me more. That being said, I haven't played in a long time and my meta reads on either of you really need to be irrelevant in my consideration. I need to make a pro con analysis of each of you within the context of this game.

[VP Baltar]

Eh, I don't really think you (or anyone left alive) really has the luxury of 'I'm so town I'm just going to sit here and watch you guys fight it out.' Laziness at this point should simply be taken as a pro-scum attitude. I think everyone needs to present valid arguments as to who they think is scum and why.

[VP Baltar]

The switch from "third party survivor" to "scum that is competent enough to fool me" instantly was also a bit weird,

Not really. You pointed out a very valid reason why I was being stupid in even speculating that. Thinking of the survivor angle was a byproduct of second guessing my putting both you and Emp in the town column all game. It's not an after thought as you seem to be suggesting.

[VP Baltar]

VP, what do you think of the setup speculation leading to me being town? Do you think we had the vengeful hidden partners and a one shot tracker, one shot watcher with no protective role against two scum PRs, maybe 3?

I think it's one possible angle, and it's not without its merits. I don't think setup speculation makes you confirmed town.

[VP Baltar]

And do you really think scum plan the night before HD got lynched was "okay, we no-kill despite avoiding shooting VPB because of being afraid of a protective role to set up for OUR protective role claims even though that doesn't work if we don't have protective roles"? Or do you have something that makes a lot more sense?

I think this type of speculation is particularly beyond useful. If you're telling the truth and you're town, sure this makes absolute sense to you. To me, it's just unconfirmable speculation that doesn't mean anything certain to me.

As an aside, I don't think judging from our two dead scum so far, we've exactly seen what I'd call logical scum play, so etc.

[VP Baltar]

The switch from "third party survivor" to "scum that is competent enough to fool me" instantly was also a bit weird,

Not really. You pointed out a very valid reason why I was being stupid in even speculating that. Thinking of the survivor angle was a byproduct of second guessing my putting both you and Emp in the town column all game. It's not an after thought as you seem to be suggesting.

It's a strange thought, but I wonder why third party was your initial assumption as opposed to "scum", which you brought up second. Considering me third party means that you think me not-scum, meaning that you have some special reason to think me so. Otherwise, why didn't Emp get the honor of being suspected of a third party survivor?

oh I get what you're saying. Mostly because I read you as town because I saw you as legitimately scum hunting. So, survivor fits with that read of your play.

actually, now that I'm thinking about it more, isn't the typical wincon of a survivor not just to outlive the scum but to also make up at least 50% of the surviving players?

[VP Baltar]

VP, what do you think of the setup speculation leading to me being town? Do you think we had the vengeful hidden partners and a one shot tracker, one shot watcher with no protective role against two scum PRs, maybe 3?

I think it's one possible angle, and it's not without its merits. I don't think setup speculation makes you confirmed town.

That's a lot of waffling. Is setup speculation a point in my favor? Yes, or no?

I think what I said is accurate. It's not fully one or the other. That's not waffling so much as being realistic. False dichotomies are false.

[VP Baltar]

OK, guess typical survivor is just to live until someone achieves a wincon, so doesn't matter about 50%.

[VP Baltar]

I think it's a legit point. I thought that was clear.

[VP Baltar]

Working my way through a full retread of the thread and I have some good stuff so far. Ill have a substantial post in the next day or two.

[VP Baltar]

Empking, why do you think your reads have been so bad this game?

[VP Baltar]

I'd like a serious answer please. You've been way off this game for all intents and purposes. It's hard for me to see you as town when Nacho, though wrong at times, has actually been scumhunting and has hit correctly at times. It's tough to believe someone with your experience level can't find a single scum in a game full of mostly inexperienced players.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I've reread the entire game while I was traveling. This post isn't likely to end with a vote, since I want some questions answered first. I will say tip my hand slightly though and say that I have a hard time seeing how Empking isn't the last scum. We'll see how I feel after you guys answer some stuff/I point out some things that stand out to me. I'll break this up by player pros and cons so hopefully it can be organized.

Nacho

Pro
-His claim makes sense in the setup.
-From the early go, Nacho is asking questions and taking initiative. His posts show independent thought, which tends to be townish.
-Nacho votes RestFermata out of leftfield in #208, which I don't really care for. That being said, his presence would mean all three scum were on the same wagon, which is pretty high risk for a low reward of Rest's lynch at that time. I don't think Nacho would be a part of that really. Once thing I would like explained Nacho, is why you moved your vote off of Rest there and onto PV? I'd like to know more about your thought process there.
-Nacho calls out HD to explain why he thinks EMP and PV are scum in #384. Ballsy move if scum because HD has shown he has very thin reasoning for voting either. Most of his actual cases have been on Rest.

Con
-Nachos was on the early SK wagon that Fourtrouble points out must contain at least one scum. That being said, he had original reasoning for being there.
-Nacho's #367 vote of TOWK is weak as hell and also out of line with his stance of HD-scum, who would have been an easier lynch rather than starting a new wagon. On the surface, it could appear like a counter wagon to both PereV and HD, who were topping the vote counts.
- Nacho gives a pretty hardcore defense of PV on Day 1. I went back and forth on this one because it could almost be seen as a protown point in his favor considering how freaking shortsighted that'd be as scum. At the end of the day though, it's still defending a scum player and I can't in the spirit of being unbiased mark that as protown. Additionally, the reasoning of the defense is somewhat weak upon inspection:

This seems like the town meta that I've lynched before, but give a moment to see if he can't do these same things as scum.

It's an easy meta out.

Empking

Pro
-HD post #938 is still irrationally wanting to lynch Empking for no given reason. He never questions (or gives a reason why) Iecerint is town. I list this point as a pro simply because that's what I've read it all game. So, I have to admit that's how it feels on some level. That being said, I also have it listed below as a con because the level of irrational hate for Empking he gave could very easily be bussing of the most extreme kind.

Con
-Follows easily onto the SK wagon early in the game. Fourtrouble makes a decent point about someone having to be scum on that wagon and elaborates why Empking is that person. Hindsight indicates he may have been correct in that assessment.
-Post 163 has both of our dead scum prodded for lurking. It's feasible their team strategy was to lurk, which fits with Empking's play more than Nacho's.
-HD tunneled the farq out of Empking. Like, beyond rationality. This is tough to read and may have contributed to me thinking Emp was town for so long. The thing that turns it for me into a mark against Empking is the day after we lynched Iecerint. HD went from an all game tunnel on Empking to suddenly thinking we should lynch RestFermata. Why does HD suddenly want to lynch RestFermata after coming out of night? I think Emp chewed his ass over night about pushing his lynch all day and he had to change course. HD never explains this flop and I can't see anything in his posting that explains it. If Empking were town, why would he risk such a continuity error?
-Emp #280 looks like indirectly defending PV by asking for a case on him. This is the same crap logic PV took to defend himself. That being said, it's conjecture to say that was the motivation for Emp there. Still, I don't care for it in hindsight.


Other notes that don't fit into these categories:
@Nacho - Why'd you immediately switch to HD as your prime choice after Iec's lynch? I'd like your logic here.
@Emp - Why'd you want to hammer HD in post #1084 after you had been ignoring him up to that point in favor of Levi? Can you explain this sudden change of heart?

Essential question to all of this is would HD bus both buddies hard on Day 1 with sham reasoning? It’s possible given his play toward PV. I don’t think he ever truly understood that wagon. I mean, it's hard to see why a scum would try to screw his team so badly, but I guess this level of wifom is the reason.

Those are my thoughts. I eagerly await your responses.

[VP Baltar]

fuck it then nacho, let's roll with this. If you're scum, then good game bro, you fooled me.

vote: empking

[VP Baltar]

also, I'm drunk as shit, but this just feels right. my reread didn't really show anything but empking scum. I can't even lie to myself about that.

[VP Baltar]

WOOO. You're my bro, Nacho! *daps*

Thanks to everyone who played this game. It was fun to come back and get some mafia time in. Thanks Sotty and all of the people who vetted this game for great flavor and a fun setup. I had lots of fun.

[VP Baltar]

Dead thread:

VPB should be running this shit, the fact that he isn't is way bothersome.

I gots ta work mofo. It's why I stopped playing mafia regularly. I knew I could never commit the time I should to the game.

IMHO Poison should go through any form of protection; having it not do so makes it mostly useless.

That seems like it'd be pretty unbalanced in scum's favor. You'd essentially be giving the town one less day guaranteed and no recourse for it. That'd be pretty cheap from a town perspective, imo.

Thank you alcohol

Basically!

Nah, I think both Nacho and I were feeling exactly the same there. It was one of those things where I felt like it was Emp, but that also seemed convenient and I didn't want to get fooled like that so close to victory if Nacho really was scum.

[VP Baltar]

I want to applogize first to Empking for forgetting to put the LYLO clause in his role PM as he was unable to use his powers in the last day. That was an mistake on my part, which kinda sucks.

Oh, I guess that isn't in there is it. I just automatically assumed they'd be invalid in a lylo situation when I read his powers. It'd obviously break the game if they weren't.

[VP Baltar]

HD, I really don't understand your strategy of hardcore flaming bus on both of your buddies. Was it like a Fate imitation you were doing or something? I just don't know what your endgame was with it other than to make it confusing for town I guess.

[VP Baltar]

HD, I really don't understand your strategy of hardcore flaming bus on both of your buddies. Was it like a Fate imitation you were doing or something? I just don't know what your endgame was with it other than to make it confusing for town I guess.

the goal is to confuse and mislead

you guys lynched FT for a reason, y'know

Yeah, but it's just such a short sighted strategy, imo. I'm trying to understand what the endgame is with that type of play.

[VP Baltar]

The chkflip shot might have been OK. I feel like he may have been too much of a wildcard late in the game.

@Iec -- Looking at the scumQT makes it seem like the Jason kill was who they thought they could get away with safely. I don't know if that was necessarily true, but that seemed to be the rational.

[VP Baltar]

You played a better game than I gave you credit for Rest. When I did my reread, you were right about a lot of things I was unsure of earlier in the game. I think you just need to be more convincing.