Mini 1453: JobPick Mafia

[Kdub]

VOTE: Iecerint

Been too long since I've voted him in a game.

[Kdub]

I'm against job claiming. I feel like the "it limits scum fakeclaims later" argument is weak. We don't know how this setup is designed. Not enough obvious benefit and unknown potential downside IMO.

My initial thought was that Jacob is noob-town, except...

Joined : February 05, 2010

...

So I played a game with Jacob as town and me as scum where he suggested a massclaim and it was one of the only ways that town found any semblance of organization; him suggesting it here even though it's not such a good idea here ends up actually looks pretty good to me.

Did he suggest the massclaim on D1 in that game?

Not liking this BRO wagon. Jason appears to be the only player who has put actual thought and effort into his vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mikeburnfire

unvote, vote Broseidom

for backing down when called out by two people on his vote.

You know he was voting the same player you were, right? Do you have any opinion on the arguments that made him unvote Jacob, or are you just upset that BRO changed his vote to someone else?

[Kdub]

Guille, explain that Kdub read better.

It's the phrasing that he used to say that he did not like the Bro-Wagon. What is there to not like. I think it's an awesome wagon. And there doesn't seem to be anything wrong in those voting for Bro (Yet). I just found that odd. Out of everyone who has posted, the ones who have tickled my scumdar are those two.

I don't like the speed of it, and the votes appeared to be for weak reasons - d3x was just sheeping and didn't give a reason, mike attacked him for changing his vote under pressure without analyzing the actual reasoning for it, Oil attacked him for not commenting on the votes against him. I get that wagons on page 3 aren't going to be based on airtight evidence, but the speed and nature of the votes didn't feel good to me.

Because you took my bait.

Uh...explain? I don't see what you were getting at here, only to call Jason town a few posts later.

I vote against name claim.

notscience, do you have any reads? You're arguing a lot of strategy but not saying much about the players in the game.

[Kdub]

I could go for a notscience wagon. He's almost actively trying to avoid giving opinions on anything and continues to argue theory.

notscience, do you have any reads? You're arguing a lot of strategy but not saying much about the players in the game.

^This wasn't a rhetorical question.

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't know what to say to this.

Why did you find BRO's unvote of Jacob to be bad? Was it because you thought the arguments made against him should not have convinced him to unvote, or was it something else?

[Kdub]

mike's Vote is meh.

Ftr, I have Town-Townish reads on everyone on the Wagon currently. I think BRO is telegraphing...

Does not compute.

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't know what to say to this.

Why did you find BRO's unvote of Jacob to be bad? Was it because you thought the arguments made against him should not have convinced him to unvote, or was it something else?

The former. I felt he went defensive too easily, and that is slightly scummy to me.

Meh, fair enough, although I don't really agree that it looked scummy.

Okay, so allow me to clear myself up for Bro over there. We don't know how many jobs got placed as a VT. So, someone might have what would SEEM to be an important job actually end up being a VT. Hence pro-village. But we don't know the specificness of the flavor roles as to their abilities (if they have any)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: notscience

Was really hoping to quickhammer broseidon over there, but it didn't work out.

You wanted to quickhammer because you actually think he is scum, or just for the hell of it? We're way past RVS in case you didn't notice.

[Kdub]

kdub what is your read of me?

Leaning town due to how quickly the wagon formed against you, and your handling of the massclaim/breadcrumb thing doesn't strike me as scum-motivated.

Sure it does. Meh =/= scummy, just meh. I wasn't a huge fan, but I was fine with it. Between said Vote and my post, I gained a few Town points. In case you were wondering, he's the weakest read on there {Null leaning Town}.

Why point it out then? I thought that by stating that you thought it was meh, you were trying to make a point that you didn't like it.

[Kdub]

BRO should definitely not be lynched today, but mike shouldn't either tbh

That's kind of a random statement for you to make at this point. Reasons?

kdub- Not necessarily hating him, curious of his vote on me though. He's done a pretty good amount of content, so I'll say leaning-town.

What's curious about it? You were posting a lot but doing absolutely no scumhunting until multiple people put pressure on you. Did you really not have opinions on other players up until that point?

[Kdub]

More like i was focusing on the claim thing.

Well that was entirely my point. You were focusing on it and doing nothing else.

I'm feeling better about mike now than I did earlier in the game. I could get behind a d3x lynch though.

[Kdub]

notscience is oozing newbtown from every orifice.

Uh, no? I don't know what you expect from newb-town, but active lurking and debates about theory definitely aren't what I expect.

However, I think we should kill sirdanilot. I'll try to keep OMGUS out of it, but it's clear that he's tunneling me, and I think most of his reasons for doing so are very very lacking. But the reason I think that we can agree on it is because he hasn't been townhunting. Look at all his posts. Unlike other players who are trying to find out who is town and who is scum, sirdanilot is just calling people scummy. This indicates to me that he's not really scumhunting, just beating a war drum.

That's a weird reason to suspect someone. Lots of people focus on scumhunting more than townhunting, I don't see sirdan standing out in this regard.

MBF, you just said you're fine with the town self-destructing. Playing towards that mafia wincon?

VOTE: MBF

OK, ^this^ is possibly newb-town.

Looking forward to d3x's catch-up post.

[Kdub]

d3x, why do you still want to lynch BRO? Is it still because of the stuff earlier in the game?

You see, that 1 post in 30 IS the thing that made my read change. Not only was it ONE POST within 30, he also had no real standings in it, nothing but dead weight to the town overall. I'm sick of town dead weight, and that's exactly what jacob is being. Hence, top scum read.

Even though d3x's accusation here is kind of a stretch, this post bugs me. It comes across like you are over-justifying your Jacob vote. It's admittedly a gut feeling that is amplified by the fact that YOU were certainly dead weight for a good portion of the game, but this post felt very forced. In fact, just on the last page, Jacob made another couple "dead weight" posts with no comment from you. Explain your vote on mike please, because you suddenly switched from having him as a town read to voting him for what should have been obviously seen as a facetious comment, and trying to catch him on a flimsy "scumslip".

BTW, mike is likely town for post 296 and subsequent reasoning. I don't see scum pulling a move like that.

I am voting MBF over d3x because scumd3x's behavior makes more sense if MBF is scum, too, and MBF has the smaller wagon IIRC.

Explain? What connection do you see between them that leads you to believe they could be scum together?

[Kdub]

I don't think voting someone not at the top of your scum list is necessarily scummy. What motivation would scum-notscience have there unless you think his top scum reads were all his scumbuddies (which would have its own set of problems)?

But regardless, I don't like his response in post 295 at all.

[Kdub]

d3x's claim is...interesting. If proven to be true, it seems like a probable town role, as I'm having a hard time seeing the utility of it for scum.

I'm still holding out for a notscience lynch. Does anyone other than Oil have an argument for why he is not scum?

I won't support a mike lynch. Iecerint has barely done anything, which I find to be unusual for both town-Iec and scum-Iec. I guess I would get on board if that were the only option before deadline, but he's basically neutral at the moment. Still would like him to answer my question though.

[Kdub]

UNVOTE:

Intent to hammer mvmafia. Claim please.

I'm pretty much in agreement with mike/Jason. greygnarl claiming to post and then replacing out

with no explanation

has no town motivation that I can see.

[Kdub]

He's at L-2, just saying.

Yeah you're right.

VOTE: mvmafia

L-1

[Kdub]

btw i'm a Senator (townie) here's my claim

Are you claiming townie as in vanilla townie, or do you have abilities?

[Kdub]

Well, I think we can proceed here unless anyone has anything else important to bring up today.

[Kdub]

Sup, 2 things. 1 why did we lynch mv. That was an error and you should feel bad about it.

2. D3x, you've got some explaining to do.

Awful post. No defense of mvmafia before the lynch, then berating us after he flips town. Jacob, what made you think that lynching mvmafia was an error yesterday?

BRO, do you want to explain the rescue dog thing, or is it something we shouldn't discuss?

Of note is that Jason was in favor of job claiming. That tells me that it was probably a good thing we didn't do it.

1) Is it better to have d3x claim a target first, or for the target to say they were tracked?

Probably doesn't matter. d3x can decide whichever way he wants to do it.

Will reread some stuff later today when I have more time.

[Kdub]

I'm feeling meh on an Iecerint lynch. Didn't really care for his push on mike yesterday, but I'm not seeing anything obviously scummy.

MeowMix has been off my radar this whole game, but rereading his iso, I could see him as scum trying to sheep people and not stir up trouble.

I still dislike notscience's play at the start of the game along with his hypocrisy in calling out active lurkers, but he's at least started contributing and pursuing cases now.

VOTE: JacobSavage

I WASN'T HERE. HE CLAIMED AT LIKE 3 AM and the hammer was at 7:30 AM. OF COURSE I WASN'T AROUND.

YOU DIDN'T EVEN WAIT FOR ANYONE TO COME IN BEFORE YOU LYNCHED HIM.

Anyway I'm having a hard time focussing at any rate.

The deadline was less than a day away and we had a VT claim. Given that it was D1 and that slot had posted virtually nothing of substance, what possible defense could have been offered that would get people to lynch someone else? If you had some defense of mvm that you wanted to present but didn't get the chance to, I would like to hear what it was. It makes absolutely no sense to be complaining about this except to try to score cheap "I told you so!" points.

[Kdub]

Kdub is probably scum too, calling out two people, buddying a third one and voting a fourth one still. Also my gut says he's scum. I wouldn't suggest lynching kdub today though, I think it's a better idea to focus on the people at hand that aren't really contributing

and

are scum(my). Such as Iecerint, JacobSavage.

MBF has somewhat gone off my scumdar for now, as has noscience.

I was summarizing my opinions after doing some ISOs and rereading over some past pages. Not sure what your problem with that is.

I didn't SAY his reads where in a order; the sheer fact that he calls out three people then votes a fourth one in a sheeping manner is scummy in itself.

How was I sheeping? I was the first vote on Jacob. Other people disliked his posts, but were mostly going after Iecerint instead.

When MVM was lynched, his posts felt like he was holding back, and he was aware of MvM being in L-2.

Well yeah, I think NS said explicitly that mvm was at L-2 and was in favor of the lynch. I think a lot of us were.

Final thoughts, I highly doubt JS is Scum. Discuss...

...

Ok, I lied. There's one more thing. I really don't like Kdub's p449 and I think I'll start there.

How about you discuss why you think JS is not scum? You're putting down a lot of opinions with no reasoning behind them, not very helpful.

Claim your night result outright or I will vote you. Now it's like 'yeah I got no result but WAS NOT blocked but there IS a roleblocker'. I don't buy anything for that.

I don't think d3x necessarily has to claim a result (e.g. who his target visited) if it will out someone as having an ability, but having his target confirm the supposedly confirmable role would be reassuring...

[Kdub]

Jacob and notscience mostly. MM is more of a gut feel after looking at his ISO but I admit I don't have anything substantial on him.

[Kdub]

Final thoughts, I highly doubt JS is Scum.

He didn't report me and I see no reason Scum wouldn't. Also, reasons.

That's your reason for why Jacob is not scum? No sane scum player would have reported you last night, do you see why?

I see no reason to be any more clear.

What was the point of stating your target in the first place then?

Also, Notscience, why did you target Icerint last night?

Err...did I miss something? When did notscience say he targeted Iec?

[Kdub]

Where the hell is Jacob? The fact that he's posted nearly every day on MS since his last post but not in here makes me more and more comfortable with my vote.

not really a huge fan of him teasing information, there's no point in saying you have something and then withholding it from us, only serves to add confusion and speculation (a lot of which is contained in the past 3 pages)

That's a fairly superficial reason. What is your opinion of mike, given that on this very page, he basically did the same thing you are accusing Iec of?

[Kdub]

I'm here.

I shouldn't be. About 20% of my years marks are in exams tommorrow and I have no idea what I'm doing. (hense the V/LA)

But Icey did target me.

Jacob, what is your read on Iecerint right now?

I am not a neighborizer; my mention of "communication" is only meant to explain why I had posted the information (i.e., to explain something to JS). In other words, the only communication was in-thread. I targeted JS for a reason that will likely eventually become clear; it was not an error.

Something's not quite adding up here. You posted publicly that you targeted Jacob (for whatever reason). He then confirms that you targeted him...but how could your public statement (that you were the one who targeted him) have been informative to him? Either he knew all along that you targeted him (in which case you claimed for no reason), or your statement gave him that information, but how could he know that you were telling the truth in that case? I understand if you don't want to say anything more on it, but if it's the latter, that feels like a slip by Jacob - he's assuming that you are telling the truth (because he is scum and already knows you are town). Am I off base here?

[Kdub]

I really don't like that Kdub's Vote on JS comes after 3-4 people come out with ScumVibes on him. Kdub could've legit Voted in p433, but it feels like he wanted to get a better lay of the land before Voting.

I did a reread, plus Jacob made an additional bad post in between those posts. Even ignoring that, the only other person who came out with "scumvibes" on Jacob in between those posts was sirdan, not 3-4 people.

Also, where am I digging into people's roles more than you think is warranted?

p.edit- I'm assuming that whatever Iec did gives the Targetted player the head's up that they've been Targetted {ala my Track and the Scum Delayed RB}.

Well this gets right to the problem I was having with that exchange. If this is the case, then why did Jacob confirm that Iec was in fact the one who targeted him when (from a town POV) Iec could be lying?

[Kdub]

My role does not specify that my target knows I targeted them.

Then don't you think it's odd that Jacob confirmed that you targeted him? How could he know specifically that it was you (as opposed to your scum buddy for example) unless he assumes (knows?) you are town and are being truthful?

[Kdub]

3 mafia + 1 traitor is unlikely, although I wouldn't rule out 2 mafia + 1 traitor + 3rd party. Jacob isn't 100% clear, but d3x's result is enough to look elsewhere today (barring someone claiming to have protected guile).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: notscience

I would also be OK with a MM lynch, as post 518 was pretty weak. I'm still not seeing Iec as scum, can someone voting him explain the case?

[Kdub]

#432 details the reason we think he's scum. His reads were vague, he dodged the fuck out my questions, he sheeped an unknown person's townread on NS. His actions while I was gone haven't changed my mind: claimed to target JS, shittily voted NS (evidently for NS yelling at d3x for doc-fishing???), getting into a dumb argument with d3x. I see no scumhunting. I see nothing other than someone sitting back watching events unfold.

Eh, some fair points, but some people (read: Jacob/MM) are far more guilty of not scumhunting IMO.

And then he jumps completely off the NS train for a decent reason. It's not just the vote switch, but also the complete lack of pressure on NS that bothers me.

Actually it wasn't a decent reason at all. He voted Iec for doing something that mike did far more blatantly (and neither of them were scummy) and completely ignored it. I asked him about it and still haven't gotten a response.

Hang on. Jacob targeted guille last night, right? If he targeted guille, and Ice is telling the truth that his role doesn't inform people he targets them, how the fuck does Jacob know Ice targeted him?

That's exactly what I was saying. d3x's result is enough for me to give Jacob a pass for now though.

Bah, this game is constantly messing with my reads. Now I'm convincing myself that MM is a better lynch today.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: MM

FYI, I'm traveling at the moment and will be on a plane most of Monday afternoon/evening. I don't think I'll be able to check in during the last few hours before the deadline unless I can find a few minutes at an airport to catch up.

[Kdub]

Do BRO and Kdub think notscience is town?

No, I changed my vote because I felt worse about MeowMix.

My rolename is Queen of the Savages, which EmpKing appears to have understood is based on the Magnetic Fields song. At night, I target people and give them cabbages. When the majority of living players have cabbages, the cabbages are all destroyed and I am made King for that day (i.e., I unilaterally decide who will be lynched that day).

I targeted JS N1 because I thought it was relatively unlikely that he would either be lynched or NK'd due to his lurky play. I claimed my target so that he would have context for having received a cabbage.

Meh, the claim is confirmable, but null with regards to alignment. Doesn't change anything IMO. If anything, it's probably got more utility for scum than town. If I'm wrong and Iec is actually scum, NS and BRO get scum points for unvoting so easily due to this claim.

Still fine with MM lynch today.

[Kdub]

Kdub, look at his claim. If that's a scum role, then scum is too OP in this theme.

In a game like this, I don't think we can safely assume what scum can or can't have.

@ns- What happens if MM comes in and Claims PR? Do you switch over to someone else and wait for them to Claim, etc?

Yep.

This strategy is pure fail when this is clearly a power-heavy game.

Gives me serious pause. In my post, I call attention to being the Tracker and I say the ambiguous "Also, reasons" and he didn't put 2 and 2 together? I don't know how I could've made it easier aside from finally saying he was a PR. Kdub is better than that, imo. He was riding an easy Wagon and not reading into the discussion he was carrying on.

How is a mere "also reasons" some huge flag here? I mean, I get in hindsight what you were saying, but that's hardly clear when the first part of your quote (about Jacob not reporting you) was also focused on your role (so "also" could have been referring to something else altogether and was vague enough that I didn't think much of it). Also, let's think this through in terms of motivation. Suppose I am scum and I catch your "also reasons" as you hinting that you targeted Jacob but pretend that I didn't notice it. Why wouldn't I just keep that info to myself and instead pursue it further when I supposedly know what you are going to come back with (giving town that information as well)?

As far as me/NS as scum, I've said several times that I would support a NS lynch today. I just prefer a MM lynch right now, and the case on him is not purely lurking. For starters, how about post 518 where he calls out Iecerint for "teasing information", yet completely ignores the fact that other people did so far more blatantly? Not to mention that the Iec wagon was gathering steam at that point. That's an opportunistic vote with shallow justification IMO.

[Kdub]

MM and Jacob having the same claimed ability is weird. Jacob, did you get any benefit for finding the senator with your ability?

Jacob is likely town, so I'm interested to see how different/similar his role really is from MM's.

Oil, can you explain why you voted notscience instead of MM at deadline when they had an equal number of votes? I assume you wanted to avoid a no lynch, but why vote NS over MM when you even admitted in your post that NS was probably town?

[Kdub]

my flavour is school principal. my night action is...exactly the same JacobSavage's. like almost the exact same thing. I was given information that there was a senator and could target a player to see if they were or not. the only difference is that if I found him, I became a doublevoter.

Jacob, did you get anything special if you found the senator?

[Kdub]

Jacob is likely town,

Yeah, like I said before, Jacob is not 100% confirmed since there is the possibility of 3rd party, and I suppose there's a chance d3x's ability is scum (though it seems unlikely), but it's fairly good evidence for Jacob being town IMO.

Oil, can you explain why you voted notscience instead of MM at deadline when they had an equal number of votes? I assume you wanted to avoid a no lynch, but why vote NS over MM when you even admitted in your post that NS was probably town?

MBF's double results on notscience and Iecerint. NS's best explanation for that was that someone redirected MBF onto Iecerint when he was already targetting Iecerint, and that was a giant elephant room as opposed to the MM/JS dichotomy, which definitely isn't a hard counterclaim due to the nature of this game

Hmm...interesting reasoning. I would have thought the MM/JS claim dichotomy would take priority, as that was a potential 1v1 and NS could potentially have proven his role. Your response is noted, especially if MM turns out to be scum.

Vote Jacob

for Role.

Uh, what? He didn't claim anything new since his last post.

I'd rather see a claim from JS before I put a vote on him; it is really weird that he decided to claim the same action I did

He claimed before you, so he couldn't have "decided" to claim the same thing as you. Either he's telling the truth, or he's scum and got a safeclaim from the mod. If anything, you could have "decided" to claim the same action as him to try to push this exact line of reasoning.

I'm probably voting MM, but I want to hear Jacob's full claim first.

[Kdub]

I got immunity from all kills (other than a lynch)

This lasted for up to 20 times I guess to stop an endgame scenario

My job was an Astronaut

Can you paraphrase flavor? You get immunity from kills on the same night that you target the senator and that's it?

There's a potential flaw I see in your claim that gives me pause, but I'll wait for you to answer first.

d3x has a reasonable point as well.

[Kdub]

But no i get it for the rest of the game.

You get immunity for the rest of the game after targeting the senator just once? What's the point of the 20x limit then?

[Kdub]

Well here's the problem. There still doesn't seem to be any point in the 20x limit because if there's an endgame deadlock with scum, the scum would just kill the senator (who we know is a VT) instead.

Having two town PRs rely on a single role to enable both of them seems swingy. And honestly, Jacob's claim sounds much sketchier than MM's claim on the face of it. If not for d3x's track result, I'd be inclined to disbelieve Jacob.

Going to think on this for a bit.

[Kdub]

And i was refering to an endgame situation of 1 maf vs me going itno night.

In that case, the senator would be dead so the ability would be unusable. Do you see why the 20x thing is completely pointless?

Sketchy claim aside, I was feeling the possibility of an MM-Oil scumteam earlier today, and Oil's vote just tipped the scales for me. There is the possibility that Jacob is 3rd party, or he could be mafia and the delay-roleblock/vanillaizer might be 3rd party, but I don't think he's the right play today.

VOTE: MeowMix

[Kdub]

I felt that your vote was the key vote yesterday that got notscience lynched over MM, and I didn't really like your explanation. Combined with your vote on Jacob, it feels like you are trying to protect MM from being lynched without defending him outright.

[Kdub]

Well, that certainly changes things.

Given that Jacob's role now apparently conflicts with two other people, I'm willing to switch my vote when we're ready to end the day.

UNVOTE:

[Kdub]

BRO seems like a weird kill. I guess nobody really suspected him, but he was fairly quiet the past couple days and didn't seem particularly engaged.

Two town bulletproof abilities in this setup seems odd, but the way Kthxbye went about it doesn't seem scummy. The only possible motivation I could see is if he and MM are scum and he was trying to make sure MM didn't get lynched. Two town abilities that rely on the same town role to enable them seems overly swingy.

Either way, this should happen today:
VOTE: MeowMix

Anybody interested in Lynching Kdub or Oil?

I'm not interested in lynching Kdub, he's town. I could probably get behind an Oil lynch if there isn't support for a MM lynch.

Oil, your opinion on MM?

d3x, did you get any info last night, or do you want to wait for whomever to confirm it?

[Kdub]

Response?

Combination of a few reasons. I thought your D2 vote was the tipping point that got a townie (notscience) lynched over someone who I have a scum read on (MM). You pushed strongly for an Iec lynch (who I read as town) and have seemingly dropped it now that pressure on him has subsided. Also, POE reasons. d3x is likely town because of his ability, I have town reads on Iecerint and Kthxbye. That leaves 2 or 3 scum among you, MM, and guille. I think MM is scum, and if I had to pick a likely partner between you and guille, I'd lean toward you for the above reasons.

Meow and Kthx are quite probably telling the truth.

You don't think having multiple town PRs enabled by the same player (who has no protective abilities himself) is unlikely? Also, what about MM escaping the noose each of the past two days (he was at L-2 either tied with or in the vote lead both times), only to have the eventual lynch both days flip town? That doesn't seem fishy to you?

[Kdub]

Except my PR isn't enabled by anyone..

I was talking about Jacob and MM.

[Kdub]

This is what I see happening last night:

Why do you see that happening last night? Seems like just random speculation on your part. And regardless, what is my supposed scum motivation for talking about the BRO kill in the way I did?

I'll claim if someone has intent to hammer, but wow, Kthxbye's vote is really poorly justified.

[Kdub]

We're scum because we disagree with your reads? And we haven't really forgotten about Iec, there were just things that made a lot more sense recently.

Even if I didn't have a scum read on MM, my point about you being the key vote on a town lynch (notscience) stands. And yeah, if I'm reading someone as town and you are pushing for their lynch, that's going to catch my eye. Regarding Iec, I've barely seen you comment on him since your push at the end of D2. It feels like you just wanted to get him lynched, realized that the support wasn't there, and then stopped scumhunting him.

Yeah, Kdub is scum. Am I already voting for him?

You originally said you think I am scum due to POE. Are you now saying you actually have a scum read on me? I disagree with your claim that MM is likely telling the truth about his ability, so I don't think your POE reasoning stands.

Regardless of your read on me, do people at least see how terrible Kthxbye's vote is? I'm stunned that he can throw down a L-1 vote on me for THAT reason and not have anybody blink an eye.

[Kdub]

Kdub, why do you think MM is lying about his ABILITY per se?

I think it's perfectly plausible that his ability was real, but that his alignment could be scum. Simple balancing for town getting the Senator to claim D1.

Sure, that's possible. My contention is that two town PRs enabled by the same player is unlikely. So maybe I should clarify and say "I disagree that MM is town and telling the truth about his ability."

[Kdub]

That'd be as unlikely as Town having 2 Bulletproof Roles {read-Kthx and JS}. Do you think Kthx is lying about his Role?

It's not the duplicate role itself that's the issue. Two bulletproofs would be an unusual design choice, but nothing wrong with it in principle. Two roles enabled by a single town role is an unusual design choice and is extremely swingy because it hinges two town PRs on whether a single player is alive or not. Not impossible, but I see it as unlikely. Do you see the difference?

Besides that, there are other reasons I think MM is scum: 1) lurking, 2) lack of content even when posting 3) was the alternative wagon two days in a row, the competing wagon was on town both times. That's about as concise as I can make the case.

2 of the 3 of these are scum...probably
MeowMix
Kdub
guille2015

Wait a sec, back up. Let's talk about your vote on me. You don't get to thrown down a L-1 vote with terrible reasoning and now try to act like it's POE. Let's go back to 928. What is my scum motivation for posting my speculation about BRO?

Pedit: Oh, I thought you were delay-blocked N1 and hence were blocked N2.

Are you instead saying that you were delay-blocked on both N1 and N2?

I'll be honest, I didn't pick up the "blocked since N2" either, so I thought d3x got a result last night and was waiting for whoever to claim it.

[Kdub]

Thee is no act. The Poe came after putting u at L-1.

You're missing the point. You say POE came after your L-1 vote, fine. That means your original reason for voting me was exactly what you said in 928 and had nothing to do with the subsequent POE, right? Now, address the issue here. I think your reasoning is terrible and in no way justifies your vote. I'm asking you to explain your thought process and why that reasoning led you to vote me.

[Kdub]

@Kdub- Do you think Kthx is scummy or just using faulty logic?

It's definitely faulty logic. Do you disagree? I think there is possible scum motivation in putting me at L-1 there, especially the more he tries to avoid defending his original reasoning. I said I had a pro-town read on him based on his counterclaim yesterday, and I still think an MM/Oil scumteam makes a lot of sense, but I don't rule him out as scum.

What I'm seeing here is that three people have pushed me to L-1, and only one of them (you) seems to have a legitimate scum read on me. Guille is voting me due to POE and ignored my question about whether that was his only reason or whether he actually thought I was scummy (and now he's gone V/LA until close to the deadline). Kthx voted me for what I think is a poor reason and is not doing a good job explaining why that makes me scum.

It's simple and said already.

Your post about nk spec seemed fake and forced. I need not have any other reason.Your post about nk spec seemed fake and forced. I need not have any other reason.

Bolded is false. You did not say this at all in 928, and it looks like backtracking to now say you did. The implication in that post is that you speculated that the scum had a particular thought process when deciding who to kill, and made the connection with me posting my thoughts on the kill (which happened to match your speculation). I asked you specifically, what is my scum motivation in doing that?

[Kdub]

Heh, bolded is indeed false. It's what was in my head when I wrote p928 anyway. I could have just said it, but I thought the way I posted it was more amusing. Anyway, the message is still in the post if not said outright.

...aaand we get a full backpedal. No, your message is not in the post at all. None of us are mind readers. And even if your vote actually was for the reason you are now saying it is, why did it take you almost a full page after my initial comment (between which you made several posts) to say anything about it? This is amazing. You vote me for a bad reason, I ask you to explain my scum motivation, and after a few dodges, you finally say it was based on gut or feel or something (which is something I can't possibly defend against since it makes no demonstrable claim about my actions or motivation). Are you at least willing to admit that your "case" on me looks awful and unconvincing from an outside town perspective?

I'm not thrilled that generally smart players like Oil and Iec are not calling you out on this crap either and seem to be willing to sit on the sidelines while time ticks by.

Holy shit. No wonder I have no read on MM. His latest post was a page before my first post in this game...No wonder I have no read on MM. His latest post was a page before my first post in this game...

You just now realize this? You just had a conversation with Iec a couple pages ago about why he isn't voting MM, and you didn't even think about your own read on him? Given that MM is the alternate wagon to the person you are trying to get lynched today, don't you think it might have been a good idea to check him out at some point?

[Kdub]

Mod: if MM gets replaced, can we get a deadline extension?

[Kdub]

IIRC you also voted Jacob relatively early yesterday, which makes it easy for me to imagine you (or Kthx) with MM.

You do not recall correctly. Read again.

Stop sitting on the fence. What do you think about the wagon on me? Why aren't you pushing an MM lynch or voting for him yet if you think he's the most likely to be scum?

[Kdub]

Tell me, do you think town care about how they word things as much a scum do? If I were actually scum, don't you think I would take care not to make such claims about my own damned posts if I thought they might contradict?

Sure. I also think you would take care to do so as town. I know I would. Has nothing to do with the reason why you posted what you did in the first place, which is what I'm getting at. People make mistakes and bad decisions regardless of alignment. You put down a vote for bad reasons, then your defense when called out is "if I were scum, why would I do that?" Sorry, doesn't work like that, otherwise every potential scum tell could be responded to in that way. This is a bit of a goalpost shift because my main argument is that your vote is poorly reasoned and you should stop voting me because it is unjustified, not primarily that you are scum because of your vote (which is what you seem to be responding to).

What is your opinion about the POE post.

If you've been following my posts, I've been pretty clear that I think MM is scum. Oil is my most likely pick for his scum partner. d3x is town because of his role, and I have a town read on Iec (though I don't completely rule him out). Guille is neutral just because I haven't had any strong feeling about him all game. I'm conflicted on you because I thought your behavior yesterday was town, but your vote on me and subsequent defense is awful.

Oh, and you're push on the PR that scum can't kill at night (me) looks bad for you as well btw.

This gets back to my point above - you seem to be arguing against my "push" on you rather than what I am actually pushing against, which is your vote on me.

A respected poster in an MD thread (I forgot exactly who it was, maybe Yos?) once said town should always lynch bulletproof claims, even if they are "confirmed". I don't agree with that, but I understand the idea behind it. I've never heard anyone try to argue the opposite - that trying to push a lynch against claimed bulletproofs is scummy, and I think this is a weird statement for you to make (and I'm not even trying to lynch you).

Oh, and why are you all a sudden super active at L-1? Where was this burning desire to catch scum/make cases/poke holes in posts/tunnel hard attitude prior to being at L-1?

I would fight hard against my own lynch regardless of my alignment, how is this scummy? I know that people are trying to push a lynch on someone who I know with certainty is town. This just feels like an "Attack someone, then attack them again for being defensive when they respond" argument. Now you're just throwing random accusations at me. Note that two other people are voting me, yet yours is the one I am "poking holes" in, to use your words. That is because your reasons are by far the worst, and you have consistently failed to demonstrate any scum motivation in my posts, even when I have asked specifically for you to do so.

FTR, I've only been lynched once ever as town, and it was a near-impossible situation to win anyway (multiball setup where I was one of two town left in a 2-2-1 endgame). I don't consider myself an overall great player, but one thing that has been demonstrably true throughout my game history is that I am not an easy person to lynch, and I am definitely not an easy person to mislynch. If scum push this through, either by parking their vote on me for weak reasons and getting away with it, or sitting back and letting you guys do their dirty work for them, then congrats to them I guess.

I don't want to lynch Kdub when there's not really a case on him. I also would love to see MM's replacement come in and do some amazing things because I have a decent townread on him at the moment because of his own counterclaim but I don't want to lose because of a little ballsiness. Guille tossing his vote down and then disappearing into the wild blue yonder also makes me pretty uncomfortable.

Your opinion on Kthx's vote on me? Who do you want to lynch today, given the imminent deadline? Feels like you (and others) are fence-sitting and waiting for any lynch to happen due to deadline pressure.

Since it's clear that Kthx isn't moving his vote and gulle isn't coming back before the deadline, and we're not sure if we will get a deadline extension or not, I'm just going to claim now since I don't think we'll have time to scramble for another wagon if I drag it out. I am a Soldier. My ability is basically a modified bodyguard. I can protect people at night, and if I successfully protect them from a kill, my limbs get blown off and I become a tree stump (can still participate in the thread, but I can't vote or use my ability anymore). This only applies if I successfully protect someone (i.e. I just die normally if I get lynched or am targeted directly by a kill). My targets were mike on N1, and d3x on N2 and N3.

If anyone quickhammers me after this claim without a consensus first, they are 100% guaranteed scum. I have left ample time for discussion, there is no pro-town reason to do so even if you disbelieve me, and there is strong scum reason to do so (since I could interfere with their kill tonight).

Decide what you want, but I maintain that the wagon on me is crap and people are just letting it slide and hoping it goes through at deadline.

[Kdub]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: guille

Interesting...why guille over MM? Did you ever go back and check out MM?

I literally explained that in my previous post, albeit not in a part that you quoted.

You mean the part where you said you don't think MM and I can be scum together? Fair enough, but you're taking a somewhat non-committal stance on both of us, and most of the day has gone by already.

[Kdub]

While I support an MM lynch, "saving the mod the trouble" is a bad reason. Did you ever go back and take a look at him and actually decide on what your read was?

[Kdub]

Kdub: Thoughts on Iecerint?

I read him as probably town based on behavior and interactions with people throughout the game.

Do you have a case on guille to present?

[Kdub]

So, I was thinking and though I initially bought the soldier claim, I'm not sure I do anymore. JS is confirmed to have a possibility of being BP. I am BP. I'm not sure it makes sense to have a protective role on top of that. Not sure what the dogs are for, but they resemble a protective type something as well (though they seem to be worthless at this juncture...)

BP can't protect anyone other than themselves. I could argue that my role is actually weakened if there are multiple bulletproof roles (since I could end up protecting a BP player and taking a kill when it would have been better not to do so), but the tree stump stipulation does make it potentially useful in finding out who was actually targeted for a kill.

[Kdub]

My point is that I find it more likely for mafia to hide said power then to bring attention to himself like he has done. It has happened before, but then you enter WIFOM. MM's replacement would be useful.

Since the senator was dead, there's no reason to "hide" the power no matter what MM's alignment. I'm not convinced that MM's power is exactly what he said it is (assuming he's scum of course), but I wouldn't be surprised if scum-MM has

some

power that was enabled by the senator, even if it's something other than the double voter.

Seems like we're at an impasse. I guess I'd compromise with an OT lynch, but I really don't think people's reasons for MM being town are particularly strong. I have not heard a compelling reason to lynch guille and would not support his lynch today unless it were a "him or me" situation.

[Kdub]

No matter what scum decide to do, kdub, you target Dex tonight.

I was almost certainly going to protect d3x anyway, but sure.

[Kdub]

Yup, time to claim. I'm a butcher. And for some reason that means I am a jailkeeper. I haven't used it yet because I first needed meat. I got meat last night when I killed dog #1. Sorry about that bro.

Why did you wait until last night to get meat? Why didn't you get it N2?

I'm not entirely satisfied with the way you reacted to my claim either, given your claimed role.

Kdub's power is interesting, but... I don't fully buy it. kthx pretty much mentioned why I think that's the case. With two potential BP's, a bodyguard like that sounds unfair for mafia.

Two BPs with a bodyguard sounds unfair, but two BPs plus a jailkeeper is believable?

Not liking guille's claim, but if true, maybe we can work out a plan to confirm some people tonight. Let's see what Oil's claim is, then we can work things out.

[Kdub]

Two BPs and a bodyguard sounds fair. Two BPs and a Jailkeeper sounds fair. Two BPs, a Bodyguard and a Jailkeeper sounds unfair. Hence why I found your claim a bit farfetched.

I'm not finding this particularly convincing. You mentioned that you were agreeing with Kthx about the bodyguard + 2 BPs, which has a pretty clear interpretation. I get that if your role is what you say it is, you wouldn't have wanted to reveal it, but it feels a bit revisionist. I'm also not sure I buy that you didn't know (or think to ask) about the dogs until D3.

I haven't read guille's play as scum-motivated, but I really don't like his claim or the way he handled his explanation of his actions.

OT's claim seems like a convenient one for scum, but it probably should remove him from consideration for today's lynch, as it could be game over if he's telling the truth. However, if we ever get to lylo, he is very much on the table.

Going to think on this for a bit. There might be some sort of arrangement we can set up at night to try to confirm people.

[Kdub]

guille as scum is very possible. SK though? How do you explain just one death every night?

[Kdub]

Rescue Dogs and BP players plus the JW Kill. He should've been recruited if it was the Mafia Kill. I didn't want to push it since it may've been a Vig shot, but now that everyone's Claimed, there's no Vig. I started spec on it way back here.

Hmm...interesting. I didn't really think about the traitor thing like that.

Another question is, why would guille kill one of the rescue dogs instead of a player if he were an SK, and why would he do it last night but not N2?

[Kdub]

Alright, I'm sold.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: guille

That's L-1.

[Kdub]

Which part sold you exactly? What's the most damning thing in your opinion kdub?

I don't really buy his explanation that he didn't know what to do with his power until N3 and didn't think to ask the mod, and I dislike how he reacted to my claim in light of his own claimed ability. Post 1090 just sealed it. Either he had the jailkeep before getting meat (which contradicts his claim), or he tried to get meat from a player on D2 but didn't try to get it on D1 for some reason. I can't imagine that his ability is so vague that he didn't even realize he could target people to get meat. I mean, my own ability description is quite clear about targeting a player.

[Kdub]

That should be N2 and N1, not D2 and D1.

[Kdub]

I protected d3x last night.

Kdub claimed a protective PR and if true, scum would have gone for a kill last night.

Doesn't matter, because I'm a bodyguard, not a doc. Even if I protect someone, it has the effect of killing me (since I lose my vote).

I'm leaning toward no lynch myself. Kthx, did you get targeted with the poker hand, or did someone else?

[Kdub]

I had forgotten about Kdub's claim. He should claim his facts and such.

Err...I just said I protected d3x?

[Kdub]

That's what I was thinking, but I'll let Kthx speak to that when he's ready.

[Kdub]

I'm with Cephrir here, I don't see why we shouldn't no lynch. Worst case scenario, we're either back where we started or one of me/Iec/OT/Ceph dies, which helps us. Plus we have at least a chance for d3x to get results tonight, depending on how the poker thing goes. I don't see the downside here.

[Kdub]

So, the question is, if we no lynch, there is nothing to say that scum won't not-kill tonight. They could also kill the rescue dog making it so if OT is scum, we have to find his partner first or we lose.

I don't think so. If OT is scum, why would you think he would be telling the truth about his ability?

[Kdub]

@Everybody wanting to NL, we have a Rescue Dog that 'prevents disaster'. We have one left. I'm assuming that if we NL Today, the dog'll bite it Tonight. We'll then be in the same place Tomorrow, without the safety net.

p-edit: Regardless of whether OT is telling the truth about his Role, there is a disaster out there, as is evidenced by BRO's 'Crumbing. What do you think about his reaction to the Disaster 'Crumb?

I guess I don't see the downside given what we know and the potential gain (you possibly using your ability tonight).

Let's suppose OT is town. If we lynch him, we lose, regardless if it's today or tomorrow. But you have the possibility of confirming him tonight if we no lynch.

Let's suppose OT is scum and is telling the truth about his ability. If so, then scum could have killed someone last night, then sacrifice him today and they win. I think this scenario is out.

Let's suppose OT is scum and is lying about his ability. It doesn't matter if we lynch him today or tomorrow, because it has the same effect. But again, you have the possibility of catching him (or clearing someone else) tonight.

Worst case scenario, you lose the poker game and don't get to use your ability. Maybe the rescue dog dies. But again, if OT is town, it doesn't matter whether he gets lynched today or tomorrow, we lose either way.

Regarding OT's reaction to BRO's crumb, I guess I would like to hear his explanation. I still don't really get the "disaster" thing. If OT is town and telling the truth, he probably knows more about the "disaster" flavor than he revealed when he claimed. If OT is lying scum, then what is the actual "disaster"?

[Kdub]

Meh, I still think no lynch is the way to go today, just for the chance of d3x getting results. But if nobody else wants it, I'm fine with an OT lynch. I figured it was most likely Ceph/OT, and OT's defense in response to the "disaster" inquiry is not making me question my initial reads very much. I will be protecting d3x tonight again. Is there anything else that needs to be discussed before we proceed?

[Kdub]

Damn, it really is d3x.

I protected d3x last night. I received no message from the mod regarding being tracked, so he has to be lying. I have nothing else to say with regard to d3x's claimed result, you either believe me or him.

I honestly don't see much hope here. If I were in Kthx or Iec's spot (since they both have to be town now), I'd have a hard time convincing myself to vote for d3x over me.

The only argument I can give right now is that if I am scum, Cephrir would really seem to be my only hope of a mislynch today since there were what I thought were strong ties between MM and OT, so why kill him? Iec can confirm his ability, and nobody thinks d3x and Kthx are scum. I know that's a WIFOM argument, but I'm not sure what else I can say. I'll answer any questions Kthx and Iec have for me.

VOTE: d3x

[Kdub]

Kdub, explain the p1241 scenario.

However, it would be ridiculously tricky for me to actually be Scum. There would need to be a gambling mechanic that I {as Scum} would not have used all game just to setup my own FakeClaim while also having knowledge that JS targetted guille N1 with an ability that lets JS know that I specifically targeted him and then never used again as no one has since been told that I targetted them.

Since nobody other than you has claimed to have been targeted by the gambling mechanic, you could have been given it as a fakeclaim by the mod.

Alternatively, you could be a scum JOAT with multiple one-shot abilities, one of which is the confirmable track and another of which is the poker hand, which you spun into a fakeclaim.

[Kdub]

I'd actually be interested to hear what d3x has to say about the possibility of no lynch today. If he tracks Iec (for example), and I protect Iec, can he prove his ability to him? Kthx and Iec are confirmed town because this is a 1v1, and Iec would have to live (otherwise I am obviously scum) and will be able to confirm d3x's track if d3x is being truthful. I should mention that d3x doing so wouldn't even prove conclusively that he isn't scum, but I think the JOAT scenario is most likely.

The fact that the tracker claim has a vanillaize mechanic and the claimed poker hand thing also has a vanillaize mechanic is a red flag IMO.

And yes, I realize that Occam's razor points to d3x telling the truth. I fully admit that I don't have anything objective that I can prove to Kthx and Iec. All I know for myself is that d3x is lying, as I got no notification of any sort from the mod regarding d3x claimed track, and d3x is claiming to have seen me target Ceph when I know I targeted d3x.

[Kdub]

d3x is trying to pressure you into a quick decision because the "obvious" instinctive choice is to lynch me. All I can really ask at this point is for Kthx and Iec to think this through.

d3x, if you were telling the truth, what is your explanation for why you have been left alive all game even though you were treated as "confirmed" town with an investigative ability for much of the game? Why were the scum messing around killing people like BRO and mike when they could have killed you and used the supposed roleblocking/vanillaizing poker ability on them instead?

I'll be back later in a few hours.

[Kdub]

Why would you even entertain the idea of NL Today? If you're telling the truth, there's no way I'm Town, so why even bother stringing another Night out? What would you hope to gain as TownKdub NLing Today?

Who says I want a no lynch? I only asked your opinion of it.

For clarity, I don't think we need to no lynch today because this is a 1v1. But I also don't think no lynch would change anything. You're pretty much stuck. If we go with the plan where you "track" Iec and I protect him, you obviously can't try to kill either of us or you will be revealed as scum. Kthx is bulletproof. You could kill the dog I guess, but the "disaster" scum was already lynched and there aren't any obvious bonuses that the dog is giving us, so we would most likely end up in a similar situation tomorrow.

From your POV, suppose you are telling the truth and I am scum. The same logic should apply to you. If I were scum, obviously I can't kill anyone other than maybe the dog, and we end up in the same situation tomorrow. You would be right to prefer to lynch me today rather than no lynch, but you shouldn't be strongly opposed to no lynch.

My reason for asking you what you thought about no lynch was that I suspect you don't want one because you can't actually demonstrate your power tonight. If you were able to do so, and Iec confirmed it, that wouldn't prove that you are town (unless someone died of course), but it would be more evidence in your favor since it would disprove the JOAT idea.

Actually, i want this to go through without further discussion.

Not kidding about this: vote NL in your next post (everyone) or you will get my vote and I will not move it. You want me to trust you Dex? Trust me.

VOTE: NoLynch

...

I have no idea where you are going with this or why it's a good idea to stop discussion. Like I said, this is a 1v1 so I don't think NL is necessary, but I don't think NL will change anything. If you and Iec both want NL, I'll go with it, but it's unlikely to get us anywhere.

I'm out for the night.

[Kdub]

Wait... I bet he reported me. That's his game, that's what the NL thing was about. I didn't find out that I was ok to act until Night settled in Last Night, so I bet that I won't know until Night hits Tonigth too. Kdub, you son of a bitch...

You didn't find out until that night? As in you received an explicit message from the mod that you did not get vanillaized? Then what was this about:

Final thoughts, I highly doubt JS is Scum.

He didn't report me and I see no reason Scum wouldn't. Also, reasons.

This was from D2 (the night after you targeted Jacob). This sounds to me like you knew at this point that Jacob had decided to not report you, which would contradict what you just said.

Kthx and Iec, please take the time to think this through. Like I said, I know I'm fighting an uphill battle here given d3x's status throughout the game. Here are the indisputable facts:
- d3x had a confirmable track ability, but has only been able to demonstrate it on N1.
- d3x has claimed to be roleblocked by a poker hand ability the whole time after N1, and nobody but him can confirm its existence.
- d3x supposedly decided to fold the whole time (rolebocked) until the final night, when he decides to raise, conveniently wins, and comes out with essentially a guilty result on the player he's been calling scum most of the game.

The only people with unconfirmable abilities going into last night were me, Cephrir, and Kthx. Kthx claimed bulletproof, so if I were scum, I wouldn't have been able to kill him, meaning I decided to kill the one player who I had a chance of getting lynched who couldn't clear themselves last night. You can argue WIFOM and all that, but that doesn't mean that Cephrir's death provides no information.

If this doesn't convince you, I guess I just have to tip my cap to d3x for a creative gambit (although I suspect Nacho might have come up with it).

[Kdub]

You're missing that Kthx's flavor suggests the existence of the poker hand. The scum couldn't have known that at the time of the claim (well, probably couldn't -- there could be a poker hand whose only function is to un-killproof Kthx).

That's why I suggested the possibility of d3x being a JOAT with the poker hand being one of his powers. That would also explain him being "roleblocked" the whole time after using his track N1.

[Kdub]

Wrong. I didn't get the PM saying that I was ok to Track until Night started Last Night. Nice try, though. Why would I have gotten a PM about being Vanillaized if I haven't been able to Track since N1? Your plays are starting to get mixed up, Kdub.

Again, wrong. It was D2 yes, but I had been operating under the assumption that I'd be told immediately {or upon DayStart} if I'd been Vanillaized. But again, nice try.

OK so describe this sequence of mod PMs to me. You tracked Jacob N1, got a result, then got nothing else but

assumed

(why wouldn't you check with the mod?) you would be told immediately if Jacob reported you. You then didn't receive any notification about anything until last night, when you were told you can track again?

You mean like the time I was forced into Claiming D1 after going L-1? How is that my status 'all game'?

I was referring to you being "confirmed" town due to you proving your ability on N1. So fine, "all game" is inaccurate, but "since N1", which is most of the game up to this point.

3rd time's a charm, wrong. Kthx can Confirm this ability. He has a modifier stating that there is a gambling effect in play somewhere in the game.

How would I know that someone had the Gambling modifier on their PR? I Claimed this before Kthx said anything.

Well my comment to Iec addressed this. Sure, the gambling effect might actually be in the game, but you used it to come up with the roleblock excuse.

I didn't want to risk losing my investigative PR and letting the Scum go around RBing/Vanillaizing the rest of Town, so yeah I Folded the entire Game. As soon as a MC took place and I realized that I was the strongest PR, I Raised. It would've been worthless either way and since the RB was delayed, the Game would've been over by the time it's effects were felt anywhere else.

Massclaim happened the night before (when guille was lynched). Why didn't you raise then?

Considering you've managed to make it this far, I'd say it was a great ScumPlay. On top of that, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that Kthx was hard suspicious of Iec up to and including Today, so you could have garnered 3 Votes if I hadn't Tracked you Last Night. Not to mention that you had a chance I would've lost the Poker hand and not gotten a Track at all.

Iec's ability is confirmable and he could have cleared himself if someone died and someone else received a cabbage. Like I said, you can argue WIFOM (which you are doing). That doesn't mean people can't think about it and look at what is most likely.

Ouch, really? Why the slight here, Kdub? I have nothing but respect for you for stringing this along so far...

No offense intended. I don't have much experience playing with you, but I've played with Nacho a lot and I know that he is a smart player, which is why I suspect that he had something to do with this.

[Kdub]

Last post for me this morning. Iec/Kthx, if you have any questions for me, leave them here and I'll get to them later.

I Tracked JS N1. When D2 started, I received a single PM with my result and the Poker hand with instructions to Raise or Fold. This is where I would've expected all of the results to show up {if I had been Reported}. It didn't happen, thus I figured I was fine. This was later Confirmed by JS saying that he didn't Report me. I had no reason to think otherwise.

...

Wait... I bet he reported me. That's his game, that's what the NL thing was about. I didn't find out that I was ok to act until Night settled in Last Night, so I bet that I won't know until Night hits Tonigth too. Kdub, you son of a bitch...

So you don't actually know (and again, why wouldn't you check with the mod?). In the first case, you assumed you would find out immediately. Now that you're trying to come up with this idea that I would report you tonight (pretty hard for me to do so when I didn't even get a message that I could!), you're trying to spin it as you won't know until tonight. Let me ask you this: if I were scum, why would

I

assume that you wouldn't find out until tonight instead of immediately?

This is becoming the most convoluted JOAT in the history of Mafia...

Not at all. It's a standard JOAT with multiple one-shot abilities, one of which is the poker thing, one of which is the tracker, and maybe some other stuff we don't know about. Rather than use the poker thing, you and your buddies came up with this plan to have you "roleblocked" every night after you proved your tracking power N1.

There was still the chance you were telling the truth.

What does that have to do with anything? Your reason for why you folded the whole time was that you didn't want to risk losing your power and having the poker hand target other PRs, but you decided to raise the last night because the RB is delayed and so it was worthless at that point. That reasoning still applies to the previous night, because if you had raised and lost, the poker player targeting someone the next night (last night) still would be worthless because its effects don't take place until tonight (which won't happen unless we no lynch). If anything, having this happen would have helped you because it would have potentially confirmed the poker ability to another player.

What is 'most likely' is that Town has an Investigative Role.

mike was an investigative role, so there goes that line of argument.

[Kdub]

I was working on a point by point on Kdub's most recent post and I still have most of it, but here's the part that I think is the most apt and should be all that is needed. If not, there's nothing more I can do and I'll just answer any questions not posed by Kdub.

Well that's nice to know that you're going to ignore my questions, but I think that reveals more about your lack of answers than anything. If you are town, you should be happy to engage me in this. I've pointed out problems in your arguments, they don't just go away because you refuse to respond to them. Your stance on whether you find out about someone reporting the track immediately has been inconsistent, and I can't believe a townie would just assume it works a certain way without bothering to check with the mod. Your reasoning for why you raised last night should have led you to raise the night before, but you won't explain why you didn't do so. I think these are major inconsistencies that you need to address.

No, I would have to be a JOAT with a 1Shot Track, a 1Shot Gamble , and whatever else. I'd also have to know that someone in game was Nullified if I Targetted them with my 1Shot Gamble in order for this to be my 'SafeClaim'. I'd also have to have my ability{ies} Reportable by the Target{s} which JS confirmed would Vanillaize me. Mind you, this would be the only active PR that Scum have as far as I can tell, and it not only gives my Target my identity, it also allows them to Vanillaize me. That's pretty freaking nonstandard...

I should point out that since nobody but you has claimed to be targeted by the poker ability, we don't even know what the poker ability actually does. For all we know, it could have nothing to do with roleblocking/vanillaizing and you made that part up. Given the info upon reveal, we have no idea what abilities Jason/OT may have had, so I don't see how you can say you would have the only active scum PR. Aside from that, the rest of what you described seems like a standard-functioning JOAT.

Kthx/Iec: I'm really arguing with d3x to provide information for you guys. Is there anything you would like us to address? I kinda get the feeling you're trying to figure this out on your own, which is fine, but I think I've exposed legitimate issues that d3x hasn't provided a sufficient explanation for thus far.

[Kdub]

Good game. I figured I had no chance once d3x tracked me, I was just seeing how long I could hold out.

I'll wait until Empking posts the full setup to comment, but I think this game was pretty much decided after D1/N1.

[Kdub]

Firstly, the fact that the traitor was capable of being able to night killed was a mistake. Although, I don't think it made as big an impact as Kdub thinks, I do think it was very swingy

This is pretty much my only complaint with the setup. I might have been more OK with it if OT and I had known there was a traitor and that he would die if we targeted him with the nightkill. That way, at least we could factor that into our thought process. Being able to recruit the traitor would have been ideal, as it reduces the swinginess but still sort of hurts the mafia (since nobody would die that night). I said D1/N1 was where the game was decided because we lost access to our most powerful ability (OT's daykill) while lynching the only non-PR townie, followed by the kill on Jason.

The rest of the setup seemed pretty creative though.

[Kdub]

As a side note, I used to be a part of the online poker community, and it was through interactions on poker forums that introduced me to mafia and this site. I think I've revealed that fact at some point in the past (though it was a while ago and I'm not sure where), so I was a little bit afraid that someone might remember that and use it against me.

[Kdub]

It also gave mafia a daykill, so if we had saved it until lylo, the "extra" lynch wouldn't have mattered.