Mini 1485 - Macbeth Mafia [GAME OVER]

[chamber]

Me being bullet proof

Except I don't believe that.

Then you think I'm scum. What does me saying that as scum affect exactly?

[chamber]

We get to no lynch today or no lynch tomorrow. At this rate I'd almost rather do so now.

[chamber]

titus, right now, outline all the prophesies you can hand out, and which you've given out to which players.

[chamber]

Vote: meastro

Not sure I'll be around much before deadline now.

[chamber]

Why aren't we no lynching?

[chamber]

Have you used it on any nights?

NL kills someone from the town, but given that no one is explicitly confirmed, its still narrowing the suspects.

[chamber]

I CLAIMED DAY 3. Seriously, wtf. I even already pointed this out to you with a link to the post.

[chamber]

He said x-shot, not 1-shot. He can claim if hes used it fairly safely (especially night 2).

[chamber]

did you get targeted with a vision any night DrDolittle? I'm trying to remember who got targeted when. dgb, malla, me, mantis, desperado?

[chamber]

I'm kind of paranoid that Titus is third party that is required to target everyone with his ability to win. I suggest the mafia shoot him when we no lynch, because hes also pretty obviously not the last mafia member.

[chamber]

hmm. That doesn't make much sense. It points to you being scum but I don't know why you make that play if you are :/. I wonder if anyone makes sense as a godfather in the macbeth play.

[chamber]

Or I wonder if the investigation is a paranoid one, Fair is foul, foul is fair.

[chamber]

err, insane rather, not paranoid.

[chamber]

Well don would normally be the one making the kill choices. I don't think its explicitly a godfather, though they would normally occupy the same role, which does make it rather unlikely. I do quite like my insane cop theory though given the quote that gave you the ability.

[chamber]

I was trying to get him to claim not having commuted n2 before I explicitly brought that up. Because then I'd be the only role present that could have stopped it confirming my claim. But yeah, it is pretty odd.

[chamber]

I still think we should no lynch, for what its worth. Still scared of titus third party potential, especially if hes handing out 1 shot insane cops.

[chamber]

Its a believable oversight in balance. 9-3-1 tends to be more balanced than 10-3 if I remember correctly (when the 1 is an SK), and this on paper may look like a weaker SK. The problem is that what makes it balanced is the crosskill potential, sk/mafia needing to kill whoever is in the lead. When the Third party role doesn't kill and isn't visible it removes that element.

[chamber]

I also don't really see the what you are afraid of, from no-lynching? What harm will come of it?

[chamber]

Yeah, what you said is right. So lets nolynch. But first, confirm with trollie that your role doesn't do anything as far as you know?

[chamber]

That is a possibility that I considered.

Why didn't you mention it? why did you decide against it ultimately?

[chamber]

Your message to me didn't do anything explicit. Neither did malas or DGBs if their in-thread reactions say anything. Mantis died.

[chamber]

I had to choose one of you to reaction test.

Why did you choose to reaction test me?

[chamber]

If you were sheeping dgb why did you investigate dolittle?

[chamber]

Ok so, we are going to no lynch. The mafia is going to shoot titus. Then we are going to figure out who to lynch tomorrow.

[chamber]

For the record, I didn't cc because I didn't commute N2, and I haven't used commute yet. I actually thought his BP is legitimate before, but I'm not so sure anymore.

You know what? Actually, I think Chamber either no-shot or shot DGB N2 and failed, and tried to incriminate her (see day 3). Then when that didn't work out, he turned to claimed bulletproof and has been riding that since. This also corresponds to the last NK, where he knows that he can't let DGB enter MYLO because DGB will get him lynched.

Guys vote Chamber and win... VOTE: chamber. He's got to be last scum.

Why would I no kill n2? How do you propose the kill on dgb would have been stopped with the given claims? My role is by far the simplest explanation for the missing kill. I will begrudgingly accept that the traitor theory doesn't leave me fully confirmed, but its a pretty fucking weak theory from my biased pov.


Lets no lynch and have scum shoot titus, I'm waiting for everyone to say they'll do it as hypo scum, so that we can play around him being third party.

[chamber]

There is a missing kill n2, My bulletproof is the most likely explanation. Dolittle proposed that dgb was an attempted kill target and was protected somehow instead that night. You targeted mala that night. There are no other claims that could possibly stop a kill. There is also a potential missing kill n1, but, amrun was a likely mafia kill, so, only potential.

[chamber]

fair is foul and foul is fair. This seems like a pretty straightforward DrDolittle lynch from your pov? The only thing giving me pause is that you didn't get killed.

[chamber]

No way town makes that vote that quickly.

[chamber]

Where exactly is it confirmed that hes a double voter? Its not, you just assumed it was true because you already know hes town?

[chamber]

No Lynch (1) - Titus

Is this vote count wrong then?

[chamber]

I think hes very likely town and that you are very likely scum. No need to just end things before talking though. Its not completely inconceivable that the investigation was naive instead of insane, if he's scum giving out abilities.

[chamber]

Which means there is some mystery hidden vote at work, wonderful.

[chamber]

or possibly, titus didn't get the double vote power until after des used the investigation? I'd need to look at the timing.

[chamber]

You haven't said how you are leaning at all titus, want to give us a heads up?

[chamber]

The flavour is fair is foul and foul is fair, how is that not very very likely an insane investigation? You even commented on this yourself before. Also, I'm still the only explanation for the missing nightkill n2.

[chamber]

You targeted mala(town) n2, you're suggesting she made the nightkill that night?

[chamber]

After all, I targeted Desp, and something happened to me! It doesn't make sense, so the appropriate response is to reread.

You don't know that it happened to you. It could be that desp targeting drdolittle gave dolittle the phantom vote. (I still haven't checked the timing of the change~)

[chamber]

The more I think about this game the more I'm sure its just drdolittle. But if we voted for each other right now, you'd vote me, titus?

[chamber]

Vote DrDolittle

If I'm wrong I blame the fact that we lynched NS over the Siegfried VI slot at some point.

[chamber]

It could be that desp targeting drdolittle gave dolittle the phantom vote.

I was not advocating for no kill. I think you got the phantom vote.

I was publicly advocating for it, I could have just used my real vote. With that said, I didn't say that because you had clear motive to want a no lynch, but because it was a way the phantom vote going from not existing to existing could make sense (a side effect of a targeted power) and we know he targeted you, not me. I don't even think it would be incriminating outside of you lying about it now anyway. Regardless, hardly important at this point.

You taking it as an attack and being overly defensive and trying to spin it on me though makes me happy about my vote.

[chamber]

I'll be on sporadically to answer questions.
But I just want to point out that DGB Night Kill and Desp Night Kill after he tried to frame me for killing Mantis and failing.

And you just assume that the day will continue. I know the mindset of a townie who just voted, being one, and its full of worry that I fucked up and that titus will just show up and hammer one of us. Doesn't fit this confidence at all.

The DGB nightkill does certainly incriminate me, likely your intent if you were behind it. Its the strongest piece of evidence of titus scum over you scum. But I don't get how the Desp kill incriminates me in the slightest. I was very clearly paranoid about the witches being third party yesterday, and as scum I'm positive that I would have shot titus there.

[chamber]

I was trying to get confirmation from everyone that they'd shoot titus first.

[chamber]

I was trying to get confirmation from everyone that they'd shoot titus first.

What does this even mean? Only scum can shoot.

And I thought titus was third party, so I was trying to get the mafia to confirm in thread that they'd shoot him (via getting everyone to agree it was a good plan).

[chamber]

You knew that both desp and dgb know you are scum, thus you left Titus alive in hoping that Since she comes in late, she will not have time to read through everything.

Point out where Desperado said he thought I was scum? When he voted nolynch his opinion was pretty fucking neutral from what I could see.

[chamber]

DrD, I don't even know what happened with that vote. :S

Confirming as town by not voting.

Here's how I would like you to proceed.

1) Chamber in your next post, make your ENTIRE case starting from day 1 case on DrD. Do not ask questions of DrD.
2) DrD, after chamber posts, make your ENTIRE case starting from day 1 on chamber. Do not ask questions of Chamber. Do not reply to chambers case.

3) DrD, you pust your 5 biggest questions to chamber.
4) Chamber, you reply to those five questions. Do not put your questions in this post.

5) Chamber, you then question DrD with your five biggest questions.
6) DrD, you reply to those five biggest questions. Do not add additional questions.

7) Chamber, you make a closing narrative.
8) DrD, you make a closing narrative.


This should generate enough content to allow me to finish my readthrough and see if there are any inconsistencies.

I'm not going to do this.

[chamber]

Debating is such a shitty way of actually determining the truth. Just read the game and make the choice for yourself.

[chamber]

I debate for a living so that would have been extremely helpful chamber.

Then you know the person that wins a debate has a much higher correlation with debating skill than strength of position.

[chamber]

When you're talking at the professional level (I didn't know that was a thing tbh) I guess I can see that being true simply because every professional debater is probably relatively equal in skill, but it goes completely against my experience when dealing with varying skill levels, and a mafia forum is not filled with professional debaters. Just make the decision for yourself.

[chamber]

Heres my problem. My strongest reason for thinking that Dolittle is scum currently is that you haven't instantly hammered either of us. Hes virtually confirmed to me, and that biases anything new that I may go looking for. I'm not going to be seeing things that suggest hes scum to someone that doesn't know his alignment, I'm going to be seeing things that reinforce his alignment given that I already know it. Very different things. 'But wait!' you say, 'you should have already looked for ways to distinguish him as scum before voting!', yeah, thats true, but I was distinguishing him as scum from you, not from myself, and I've already stated basically all of those arguments in thread:

The nightkills outside of dgb point to him being scum, especially all of the ones prior to DGB's. I made note of this on the day we lynched meastro instead of him, my preferred choice.
You're role was too convoluted and confirmed to be made up. This presents 2 problems to you being mafia: you handed out a useful ability, and you used your ability the day a kill went through.
The cop investigation came up innocent on Dolittle but the flavour was 'fair is foul and foul is fair', clearly hinting at it being an insane investigation.
The way he voted so quickly in lylo today. He had no hesitation. You and me both know how one should hesitate before voting in lylo because of the pressure of failure, he had none of it.
When I did finally vote him, he again had no hesitation that we had made a mistake, he said he'd be around for questioning at specific times, glancing over the fact that the game would still be going.

[chamber]

You should just hammer drdolittle.

[chamber]

I don't know the slang of using pisted like that, can you rephrase what you mean?

[chamber]

Its been more than a day.

He just doesn't want to deal with this game because he knows hes scum.

He got caught by an insane investigation already even.

[chamber]

Its a 3 player lylo and we are voting each other, this is the one time I don't feel bad for shitting on you however I like.

[chamber]

Desp scum reading me is a lie. He said he was scum reading you, but had to give some credit to the fact that dgb was killed and was scum reading me (or some version of that).

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5421937 and the post after it AND http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5421983 that post and the one after it, for references on Desp.

I've said paranoid a couple of times, but I meant insane for all of them. Paranoid is just a more common cop sanity so I've messed it up a few times. Obviously a paranoid cop would never get an innocent result. 'fair is fould and foul is fair' plainly describes how an insane investigation works, town->scum and scum->town, its not like I'm pulling the theory from nowhere. the 'fair' in macbeth is not the fair you are using from modern language.

The Amrun kill is a thing and also points at you.

I don't kill with the intention of framing when I'm scum. Its just bad scum play. You killing dgb was a huge fuck up if the intent was to frame me, and not because you had a power role read on her. If it was me you and her right now, I'd be so dead and you'd have won.

Reread all the me vs DGB stuff, I wasn't ever close to 1v1ing her, although I suspected her at times, I always backed those suspicions with tests that ended in her favour and with me dropping the suspicion. I think I easily could 1v1 DGB as scum, but I wasn't trying to because I had a town read on her. She also never succeeded in convincing the town to lynch me, something else that points at this being true. Now, its certainly true that I couldn't have dgb in this endgame with me or I would have lost instantly but that's only BECAUSE I'M TOWN, as scum 1v1ing her wouldn't have been significantly worse than 1v1ing you.

[chamber]

titus?

[chamber]

Chamber stop word twisting and misrepping Desp.

Proper post later

Stop lying. I linked the posts I was referring to. Titus can interpret them however he chooses to, but I gave him mine to work from, as you gave him yours.

[chamber]

Let me first say that if you truly believe even one of the things that you've raised below, then my opinion of debate has been vindicated. Everything raised is incredibly irrational.

There has to be a doctor somewhere due to the macho flip. Doctor plus bp seems ridiculous.

If some of your abilities do things, 1 easily could have been a single doc protect. A single doc protect + a dp is not at all unbelievable. What is unbelievable is you asserting that there has to be a doc in the game despite everyone alive being claimed. Do you think the role makes more sense with a mafia doctor than no doctor at all? Or do you think dolittle is just town and lying about his own role?

With all of that said, there being a macho role doesn't even mandate that there be a doctor. I've seen multiple games with millers and no cops. Mods like adding in things like that for both flavour and to mess with players ability to game the setup as you are trying to do here (very poorly).

The fair is foul probably gave me my votes. It seems more likely the abilities were given to me.

Desperado claimed to have gotten a 1-shot cop and is now dead and confirmed town. You think he was lying? what motivation did he have to lie? How is you getting a double vote at all flavour connected to 'Fair is foul and foul is fair'. On the other hand that flavour perfectly describes an insane investigation.

I find it odd that chamber wants me to believe Desperado got a cop ability but chamber didn't get one.

Why would all of your abilities do the same thing? I think that some may very well have done nothing, but for the ones that did do something, I'd expect there to be a thematic tie to the ability you chose to use. Your predecessor used 'bloody baby' on me. That in play terms, refers to how Macbeth, despite being unkillable from any man born of woman, can still die to
a man who was delivered with a c-section. Therefore I'd expect it to do one of the following 4 things:
Make me BP except not to Mcduff,
remove my already existing BP status,
make me a strongman that could ignore BP status if I already had a kill,
Doc me for only that night.

None of those if true would be visible to me, so its entirely possible that one of them did happen. On the other hand Desperado's would need an active use so he'd need to be informed.

Chamber, why did you want me dead yesterday?

The Witches being town still doesn't sit with me properly. It was likely that you weren't mafia for a while, and is now confirmed, but I still harbour some suspicion that you are third party of some sort. On top of the bad name claim, the 3 versions of you have claimed very inconsistently and have all been scummy at times, saved only by the fact that your role ruled out you being mafia. If you lynch DrDolittle correctly and town still lost because you were third party I wouldn't be surprised.

[chamber]

"Desp scum reading me is a lie. He said he was scum reading you, but had to give some credit to the fact that dgb was killed and was scum reading me (or some version of that).

viewtopic.php?p=5421937#p5421937 and the post after it AND viewtopic.php?p=5421983#p5421983 that post and the one after it, for references on Desp.

I've said paranoid a couple of times, but I meant insane for all of them. Paranoid is just a more common cop sanity so I've messed it up a few times. Obviously a paranoid cop would never get an innocent result. 'fair is fould and foul is fair' plainly describes how an insane investigation works, town->scum and scum->town, its not like I'm pulling the theory from nowhere. the 'fair' in macbeth is not the fair you are using from modern language."

Desp said that he was slightly paranoid that i was scum.
See post here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5375466


"The Amrun kill is a thing and also points at you."

I thought we established that Amrun was ns's Vig. Or are you claiming that kill as well?

"I don't kill with the intention of framing when I'm scum. Its just bad scum play."

Looks like someone is regreting Mantis Kill.

"You killing dgb was a huge fuck up if the intent was to frame me, and not because you had a power role read on her. If it was me you and her right now, I'd be so dead and you'd have won."

So you say that framing bad scum play but I killed DGB for the Lulz to grant you out of a free pass to face Titus and I. Ok Thx.
And then you go ahead and admit that it was obvious if DGB was alive, you would be dead, and we would have won.

"Reread all the me vs DGB stuff, I wasn't ever close to 1v1ing her, although I suspected her at times, I always backed those suspicions with tests that ended in her favour and with me dropping the suspicion. I think I easily could 1v1 DGB as scum, but I wasn't trying to because I had a town read on her. She also never succeeded in convincing the town to lynch me, something else that points at this being true. "

The only reason that DGB backed down was that there were better lynch targets. You were always terribly scummy, but not scummy enough to warrant a lynch, and you ended just flying under our radars.
Town never lynched you cause we thought you were town. Which was a big fucking mistake.

"Now, its certainly true that I couldn't have dgb in this endgame with me or I would have lost instantly but that's only BECAUSE I'M TOWN, as scum 1v1ing her wouldn't have been significantly worse than 1v1ing you."
What is this?!

Reformat this post if you want me to respond to anything.

[chamber]

4 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes

[chamber]

Let me first say that if you truly believe even one of the things that you've raised below, then my opinion of debate has been vindicated

hello Appeal to Emotion.

hello naming arbitrary fallacies?

[chamber]

"Desp scum reading me is a lie. He said he was scum reading you, but had to give some credit to the fact that dgb was killed and was scum reading me (or some version of that).

viewtopic.php?p=5421937#p5421937 and the post after it AND viewtopic.php?p=5421983#p5421983 that post and the one after it, for references on Desp.

I've said paranoid a couple of times, but I meant insane for all of them. Paranoid is just a more common cop sanity so I've messed it up a few times. Obviously a paranoid cop would never get an innocent result. 'fair is fould and foul is fair' plainly describes how an insane investigation works, town->scum and scum->town, its not like I'm pulling the theory from nowhere. the 'fair' in macbeth is not the fair you are using from modern language."

Desp said that he was slightly paranoid that i was scum.

On the other hand you,

See post here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5375466

"The Amrun kill is a thing and also points at you."

I thought we established that Amrun was ns's Vig. Or are you claiming that kill as well?

"I don't kill with the intention of framing when I'm scum. Its just bad scum play."

Looks like someone is regreting Mantis Kill.

"You killing dgb was a huge fuck up if the intent was to frame me, and not because you had a power role read on her. If it was me you and her right now, I'd be so dead and you'd have won."

So you say that framing bad scum play but I killed DGB for the Lulz to grant you out of a free pass to face Titus and I. Ok Thx.
And then you go ahead and admit that it was obvious if DGB was alive, you would be dead, and we would have won.

"Reread all the me vs DGB stuff, I wasn't ever close to 1v1ing her, although I suspected her at times, I always backed those suspicions with tests that ended in her favour and with me dropping the suspicion. I think I easily could 1v1 DGB as scum, but I wasn't trying to because I had a town read on her. She also never succeeded in convincing the town to lynch me, something else that points at this being true. "

The only reason that DGB backed down was that there were better lynch targets. You were always terribly scummy, but not scummy enough to warrant a lynch, and you ended just flying under our radars.
Town never lynched you cause we thought you were town. Which was a big fucking mistake.

"Now, its certainly true that I couldn't have dgb in this endgame with me or I would have lost instantly but that's only BECAUSE I'M TOWN, as scum 1v1ing her wouldn't have been significantly worse than 1v1ing you."

What is this

even mean

?!

Reformat this post if you want me to respond to anything.

You know the post is perfectly fine in that everything you said is in quotations. But just to amuse you, here it is.

It takes literally less effort to quote how I did in my post responding to titus than how you did.

[chamber]

Desp said that he was slightly paranoid that i was scum. On the other hand you,
See post here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5375466

He was unwilling to admit I was confirmed town there. That's not even an indication that he thinks I'm not town, let alone one that suggests he thinks I'm scum.

I thought we established that Amrun was ns's Vig. Or are you claiming that kill as well?

Amrun was Nked by NS, the mafia NK from that night still had to go somewhere, and them both shooting the same target is the most likely scenario. The only other 2 options are that they tried to shoot me that night (in which case I'm confirmed and you are more fucked than if you shot Amrun), or that titus doc protected DGB n1. Which still leaves a lacking explanation for the no-kill n2 (hint: you tried to kill me). So, of the possibilities, I think that you shot Amrun is the least damning, and it still looks awful for you.

Looks like someone is regreting Mantis Kill.

I just wouldn't have shot mantis. If I did make that shot you're damn right that I'd regret it.

So you say that framing bad scum play but I killed DGB for the Lulz to grant you out of a free pass to face Titus and I. Ok Thx.
And then you go ahead and admit that it was obvious if DGB was alive, you would be dead, and we would have won.

You aren't me, you lead with suggesting I shot mantis to frame you, which suggests that you DO think that framing with shots is good play, also DGB was a power role and hadn't been that subtle about it, which provides a real reason to kill her. I'll address the I'd have lost point lower.

The only reason that DGB backed down was that there were better lynch targets. You were always terribly scummy, but not scummy enough to warrant a lynch, and you ended just flying under our radars.
Town never lynched you cause we thought you were town. Which was a big fucking mistake.

... this is so dumb. You are twisting things badly. Titus, go refer back to the initial point he made here about 1v1ing. I don't deny that DGB always found me scummy, but thats not what your initial point was.

What is this even mean?!

In the hypothetical world where I'm scum, if the end game is me you and DGB, DGB would vote me right away, and I'd vote her back, then we'd have to convince you to lynch each other. In that hypothetical world where you are actually town, I think convincing you to lynch DGB instead of me is not significantly harder than the hypothetical situation you claim currently exists, which is me 1v1ing you and having to convince titus. The only reason DGB being alive in THIS end game would have been a instant loss for town is precisely because I am town, she'd still vote me right away, and then you'd hammer without consideration for my alignment because you are scum and don't need to be convinced. (though if you tried to pull the move you pulled here snap voting me, she'd have likely voted you on her own, thats a big scum tell in her books).

[chamber]

I can't do this any more. Everything that I say, you keep twisting my words into something that I don't mean.

Just hammer this scum.

I've been supporting that he judge the facts for himself since the beginning. Obviously an argument between two people trying only to incriminate each other is going to involve one person twisting the words of the other (though in this case its you doing the twisting).

[chamber]

You did not have NK day 1 and day 2

What powers do you think I have to justify such a massive limitation?

You NKed amrun and no killed day 2 to try the ride the bulletproof train

Who No kill gambits when that far behind?

You Nked DGB - twice
and found out that she couldn't die and started trying to accuse her.

And then she was magically killable (and I was willing to try again) on night 5? Also I was accusing her on day 2 as well if I remember correctly, hardly fits your proposed timeline.

[chamber]

wtf sorry.

You, as well as I know that the only thing going for you is the lack of the N2 Kill.

The post I linked shows that Desp does not think that your self-explaination is doubtful. This almost surely indicates that he does not believe you to be scum.

I'm willing to admit that there being no N2 kill should just straight confirm me as town, making it the strongest piece of evidence in my favour. It is however by no means the only piece. where as you have precisely 0 things in your favour.

[chamber]

In a 3 person LyLo with DGB, of course I would vote you since DGB is obv town and by simple PoE, you are scum.

And I guess this is why you killed her then, that you thought she was the only obv town left, poor move without accounting for her ability, but it did work out for you.

[chamber]

I was town. Welp.

[chamber]

Can't believe you hammered me there if you are town. You had to believe so many coincidences.

[chamber]

I know berating you after you already made your choice isn't going to change anything, but holy shit dude, holy shit. There was a bloody cop investigation on him. Me being BP or not has no effect on whether there can be a doctor or not so he macho inconsistency is always going to be there. I already explained why I claimed early, and could have again if you asked, deadline was quickly approaching, things were looking like they were going to move to me, and the missing NK made me suspect that the mafia already knew I was BP severely reducing the incentive to keep it to myself. Like this was literally one of the easiest end games I've ever seen and you fucked it up somehow.

[chamber]

I had no idea what any abilities did. I was hoping whatever happened to Desp happened to me. Hence why I shot Desp.. I was intending to bp him.

so this brings me to one of the things I thought should have been pointed out that wasn't. Now, Titus, wasn't scum, but to those of you who didn't know that, I'm not sure why you didn't probe this as a probable scum slip:

Ugh. Desp was town. Throughly didn't expect that given he was lying out his ass yesterday. My night action must have effectexme given I was a doublevoter.

Gave armored head to desperado in the hopes it would make me bp.

Titus claims he thought Despo was scum, and THEREFORE WANTED to make him bulletproof. Titus what were you trying to say here?

You are reading what he said wrong. He said that he wanted to give himself BP by targeting despo. Yes this makes no sense, but its self consistent and honestly, titus just never made sense.

[chamber]

I'm really not a fan of their being 2 hidden mechanics. It was basically impossible for us to predict the source of the hidden vote and ultimately its why titus voted incorrectly.

[chamber]

Yeah, the source was still hidden though, and assuming a 2nd unexplained mechanic when we were already dealing with one seems pretty convoluted. Occums Razor and all.

[chamber]

I probably came off a little overly harsh earlier. I'm still upset over this loss, but the fault by far lies on titus, not the setup. Sorry if I was taking it out on you.

I like hidden mechanics when they are done well, and I do think that the witches on their own were done pretty well, the effects of the prophecies were reasonably predictable without being just obvious. The right amount of obscuration. The existence of the 2nd hidden mechanic was completely unpredictable though, he flipped vt. I'd say that's a hidden mechanic done poorly.

[chamber]

I was a terrible Watcher.

Your meastro one was just bad, I know you tried to set it up, but it was too transparent. The mantis one was a little odd at the time. The others all seemed fine, and even the mantis one was only odd not awful. I think you got more unlucky than anything.