Mini 1567 - Such Unusual Pretermen... ...Evil Too!

[Kagami]

^same

[Kagami]

Hello~

My role appears to have nothing to do with my pick, nor does the flavor seem at all related to GoT or JA.

VOTE: geists

for 34

[Kagami]

VOTE: Josh_B

I tracked him and found that he shot the nonexistent intro townie.

I believed he was not shot, but rather horsed.

[Kagami]

Browsed too much reddit?

[Kagami]

Hello~

My role appears to have nothing to do with my pick, nor does the flavor seem at all related to GoT or JA.

VOTE: geists

for 34

This is going to make Nati sad.

UNVOTE:

I just realized you're a hydra -_-

[Kagami]

I don't follow why that post suddenly became unscummy.

Self vote earlier means nothing given that one head is nati.

desire to meta even the RVS means little given that one head is ferry

[Kagami]

And what was wrong with 34?

Doesn't strike you as a little odd that someone would call out 30 for being try-hard, then announce that they attempted to meta someone's RVS?

[Kagami]

If 50 is correct, then I'm clearly wrong, but I consider RVS to be largely uninformative.

[Kagami]

Pretty sure josh actually is scum, regardless of whether or not Who is a lyncher.

I'm assuming lyncher counts as "scum," in which case we'd have to get rid of him anyway, and letting him win is a fine way to do it (he would almost certainly leave the game once he's won).

Changing roles was heavily featured in the first game. There were players being recruited to a bulletproof monkery, players being vanillaized, and players passing around an "artefact" that gave them immunity to vanillaizing.

[Kagami]

I'm inclined to think that Who is not a lyncher, and also not a N0 cop, but I still think josh is scum.

We should wait for Who to confirm or deny, but if he says it's legit, I see absolutely no reason not to lynch josh, and it would make no sense at all to lynch Who.

Who said his role changed, not alignment. If that is true, it makes perfect sense that he would claim his result.

It makes no sense for Who to be scum, unless josh were also scum and this is a silly gambit, in which case lynching josh is still the correct action.

[Kagami]

He said his role changed after copifying.

Given the prior game, it's entirely possible he had a mechanic similar to the artefact that gave him investigative powers that he then passed on.

[Kagami]

you sound pretty mechanical about all this, Kagami.

Is that unexpected?

[Kagami]

My role appears to have nothing to do with my pick, nor does the flavor seem at all related to GoT or JA.

My pick was from JA or GoT (Maybe geists can guess which?). I said that my role PM has nothing to do with said pick (and you claim that yours doesn't either). "My role appears to have nothing to do with JA or GoT" does not mean the same thing.

[Kagami]

"No, I'm saying the flavor is hidden, because the Mod advertised it as hidden, and my role matches my random unknown character pick. "

what?

[Kagami]

More importantly, he just claimed his role matches his pick, when earlier he claimed vanilla.

[Kagami]

VOTE: josh

[Kagami]

Returns positive (guilty) for: Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc.

[Kagami]

In practice, it's essentially a cop that also gets a guilty on mafia and a "false" guilty on vigs.

[Kagami]

EBWOP: that gets a guilty on mafia and also a "false" guilty on vigs.

[Kagami]

Is everyone here scum?
Who is 99% lyncher. There is no N0 shit going on. If anyone claims they had an action N0 the chance drops to 90%.
N0 investigation is flat-out the most unfun role that can exist.

Is there a reason to think there would be a lyncher rather than an N0 investigator? They're both "unfun" roles, as is any role that acts night 0 (which we can be pretty sure exists here given that there was a night 0 at all).

As I see it, worst case scenario is that we lynch a scummy vanilla and an actual scum leaves the game. That's basically a win-win; if I were a vig, I'd likely have shot him anyway.

[Kagami]

Don't answer that question. Scum have a vanilla fake-claim (notice there's no sample PM in the opening like last game); they know that vanillas don't have a character.

[Kagami]

-_-

You realize "pretermen" isn't even a real word. The original game is the first hit on google, even if using the site's search weren't an option.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34247

[Kagami]

What, because Kagami stipulated "that means vanilla?"

Stipulation rejected, and even were it to be accurate, we've established that there are likely to be role-altering mechanics in play, so that makes it irrelevant.

I don't know what the fuck kind of gambit shit Who is trying to pull, but I'm far from confident that Josh will flip scum.

Even without Who's claim, I'd feel pretty good about a josh lynch. Why do you think he's town?

[Kagami]

Anyway, I can describe the setup of the first game for the lazy:

3-10 standard 13p setup.

scum (wolves):
-vanillaizer
-compulsive monk recruiter
-Wiretapper (detects if a player has a QT, for finding the original monk)

Town
-Monk
-VT that starts with an artefact
-Gunsmith
-vig

Special mechanics:
Monkery can choose to either seer investigate or be bulletproof for the night (publicly stated, though with a code phrase for either ability)
Whoever has the artefact can pass it to another player at night. All players who have had the artefact are immune to vanilla-ization, though only the original owner knows that.

[Kagami]

I don't get why any of this means we shouldn't lynch josh.

If Who is telling the truth, we should lynch josh.
If Who is a lyncher, we should lynch josh. (It's like a free vig shot!)
Heck, even If Who is gambitting and for some bizarre reason decided not to recant his fake guilty even when his target got to L-1, we should probably lynch josh.

[Kagami]

Nati is rather fond of early mass-claim, and I agree that it often does have value. We just finished micro 303 (ferry's tarot game), which could have easily become a town win if we had mass-claimed day 2.

[Kagami]

I'm presuming that was a vig shot, and that any scum NKs were prevented.

VOTE: Belisarius

[Kagami]

I'm fine with the possibility that you thought it was a gambit, but for me the oddity is the lack of confidence that Josh was scum. Josh was terribly obv-scum and whether or not the investigation was real, he seemed almost certain to flip scum to me.

Agree with geists on who, juls, cho, MDT town. I think NS belongs in there too.

Don't think beli should be in maybe town. Zeph is null to me, but I agree that formerfish doesn't look good; and replacing firestarter is even more damning.

Disagree that the vig shot was bad, though obviously suboptimal. Vezok was a good choice, imo.

[Kagami]

It's hard to answer that because of site-wide rules.

[Kagami]

I guess it's safe to say that I think he was indeed possible scum who legit was trying to protect a buddy. I know it seems crazy that someone would be so overt, but I think it's possible. I also would rather he not be around as the game progresses, and I think it's unlikely that he wouldn't remain alive.

[Kagami]

I missed where you were in giests fery, zephyrus I don't really have an issue with looking into, something he did pinged me weirdly. I still don't know what you are seeing with Kagami though, I isoed her and can't find much I would normally find scummy.

You are geists are funny in that you both seem to be scumhunting by iso-ing suspects, while not iso-ing the flipped scum.

Josh was clearly not a masterful scum player spreading the mist and setting up future mislynches, or even a good scum attempting to distance. His interactions with both myself and NS are not badscum-scum.

[Kagami]

Well, you're kind of right on point one. Both 214 and 204 imply that you two hadn't read the game much at all at that point, at least.

I don't see the motivation behind the sass there, given that I don't claim that a josh iso led to said vote. To my mind, the Josh's posts probably clear NS and juls (who was already town enough).

The beli vote is in part because of his non-acknowledgement of 28 and also for the defense in 124/180, though I am concerned that josh answered attacks on him so readily, but ignored 33, not to mention the flimsy vote on me after voting geists.

p-edit: why would the vig claim? That was a vig shot and obviously a vig shot.

[Kagami]

or the kill-preventer?

Why do you want conf-innos before they are wagoned?

This is not role madness, mass-claim has significant negative utility.

[Kagami]

Stop trying to townslip.

WTF is that?

Seriously though, Bel was the first mod to accept my off site experience and allow me to sub in on JesusChristMafia. I wasn't going to play this game because I don't know what a peterman is, and I don't watch GoT or read Jane Austin novels. But, I saw that the game had been open for signups for a while, and Belisarius was in it, so I added my name to the list.
Except for JCM, I don't have any completed games on MS, so most mods have been rejecting me because of experience. So, that's the other part of why I'm playing. Empking accepted me, and I love to play the game.

I'll be at a disadvantage because I don't know much about the theme, but scum tells are scum tells, whether I know the theme or not.

[Kagami]

You believe that incredible flail was caused by pressure from his buddy?

[Kagami]

I don't see how tempo matters at all; if anything, it devalues the mass-claim.

If there are 3 living scum, they might be willing to fake-counterclaim to get a lynch in if a PR is wagoned. When there are fewer, any counterclaim is almost certainly going to come from town. Why draw out the conf-innos before we get votes on them worth analyzing, especially when we know the prior setup had both NKs and vanilla-ization?

[Kagami]

If you believe I'm scum and that scum vanilla-ized who, then don't you think I would have carefully checked the playerlist and zapped you instead?

Last game doesn't prove they're unreliable... it's true that roles changed, but inte and espeon both were vanilla'd because their roles were outed, and the town suffered for that, from a spectator's perspective.

What's the "opportunity cost of something going wrong?"

[Kagami]

I guess it's true that you guys probably wouldn't have doubted kaze if you weren't in probably lylo.

[Kagami]

I would have strongly considered shooting vezok.

[Kagami]

You guys didn't believe kaze-slot about the artefact, and even vigged him.

[Kagami]

I guess that was pre-lylo.

[Kagami]

The OPs don't include a sample vanilla PM (last game did). They likely have fake-claims, and nothing stops them from claiming vanilla.

[Kagami]

This conversation is at least more interesting than the silence prior to it.

[Kagami]

I'd be interested to read said article.

I'm very interested in the roles and setup of this game, but I really doubt mass-claim is good here, nor do I think it would have been useful in the prior game. The most valuable thing we might get out of it is a better understanding of the mechanics of the setup, but if the setup is well-designed, then that should benefit the scum-team no less.

I don't think this is M:TG, where a tempo advantage suggests that we should make more aggressive plays.

[Kagami]

Ok, I will catchup tomorrow, just from skimming I don't really like Kagami's going against massclaim.
Also, why is PhDScar still not around?

Why wouldn't I go against massclaim if I don't think it's a good idea?

And I suspect phd is around, but for whatever reason isn't required/allowed to post.

[Kagami]

O, I had just checked that and didn't see it o.o

[Kagami]

... because it was a page back... I'm a little surprised a replacement hasn't been found

[Kagami]

Simplest scenario is that there's a doctor, a vig, and whatever Who is. You believe that it's a good idea to reveal those roles?

Is there any reason to believe that massclaiming is actually wise beyond that nati said so?

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fish

[Kagami]

Spoiler: 328

Vote Count Nine.Five: Somebody's no longer alive.

Josh_B (7) - Cho, MTD, Juls, Kagami, Nobody Special, geists, Zephyrus
Who (2)- Josh_B, vezokpiraka

Not Voting: PhDScar, Belisarius, FormerFish, Who

With Thirteen alive, it is Seven to lynch

(expired on 2014-05-10 13:21:24)

Alright, so here us the lynch vc. Josh and vezo are dead, so that avenue is closed. It does concern me a little that Who isn't on the lynch that his guilty started, but I'd have to look at the course of events to figure out why. I don't remember PhD at all, and Beli gets my benefit of the doubtfor now. I am not worried about myself.

If we are following the normal scum rules we are looking at 3, right? So who on the lynch is bussing for town cred?

This is scummy for many reasons.

It strongly advocates for lynching among the group of players that the poster is not a part of. FF seems to believe that both scum are on the wagon, despite the fact that everyone off the wagon is null/scummy, except Who, the one off-wagon player he tries to paint as suspicious.

The reasons for phd, beli, and himself not being scum feel forced, as does the "Are there 3 scum?"

---

342, however, does present a reasonable argument. I'm a little leery about it, though, since it feels set up by 328.

Re: mass-claim, I still question whether it's a good idea. The games that can be broken by early mass-claim are almost exclusively role-madness, in which the scum have to claim roles, and their role/actions can be evaluated or proven. That said, it sounds like nati has more information than I do about this game, so maybe it's ok.

[Kagami]

If you don't consider "let's not worry about those off the wagon (except maybe Who), so who on the lynch is bussing for town cred?" advocacy for a wagoneer lynch, I don't know what to say, especially in the context of 254.

Yes, you said "I don't even remember phd," which is in itself silly since it's pretty hard to mention him without recognizing that he never posted; this statement is grouped with beli get the benefit of the doubt for whatever reason and that you're not worried about yourself and implies that those three shouldn't be considered.

The post is very clearly saying "We shouldn't worry about the 4 off wagon guys, except maybe Who, and should be looking at the lynch-wagon."

With regard to touhou, I recall being a pretty important part of the varsoon defense and Scum-Gaiden push on day one. Then I pushed scum-CoK before AD faked a (correct) guilty on him, and then I wanted to lynch scum-muffin for the entirety of day 3. "Your reads were shit in Touhou" is a bizarre thing to say, especially given the behavior of your slot.

[Kagami]

Vezok was not in any way softing a PR, and was strongly defending josh while pushing Who as a lyncher. Even as town, he was a mislynch waiting to happen. Scum wouldn't have killed him.

Even if you believe Who is scum, vezok would obviously have dropped the case once it was apparent that Who wasn't a lyncher, so he'd still make little sense as a night kill.

Vezok is not known to be a strong town player. I'm not sure who Ferry would have shot, but I probably would have vigged Vezok, even if I found other players a bit more suspicious.

[Kagami]

I don't know how it was ten years ago, but I would think Who wouldn't have claimed PR for that bus. Josh was terrible scum and would have gone down without the PR claim (I'd hope), so why would Who put himself in the position of having to explain why he never gets NKed? He even claimed to have turned into something different from VT.

[Kagami]

If we really believe Who-slot is a valid suspect, then that probably

would

be solved by a mass-claim, though. Scum-Who would have to rely on the pretense that there's a doc protecting him, or claim full BP. I don't think Who is scum though, and find the sparsity of opposition to a mass-claim further evidence of that.

[Kagami]

If any town are confused by that speculation, then hopefully such town will be the next WIFOM NK target.

[Kagami]

So you think there's a gunsmith and no vig, or there's no gunsmith but I'm still somehow a better vote?

[Kagami]

Obviously you think additional things or you wouldn't be voting at all, since what you know does not include alignment information.

If you think Who lying about being a cop is anti-town, then you're a fool. If he is what he claimed, then he did it perfectly.

"Who had some sort of knowledge of the alignment of the mafia goon lynched" is not necessarily true, though it almost certainly is because Who is almost certainly an investigator who investigated Josh.

Your argument that Who could be scum is ridiculous, and ignores the only real piece of evidence that might suggest this was a thoroughly idiotic scum gambit, which is that josh is an odd choice of investigation target.

[Kagami]

I have the strong impression that you don't know what WIFOM is.

[Kagami]

Look, I don't know why you think WIFOM is some magical phrase that somehow makes any evidence null, but here's why Who is not gambiting:

He would have to pretend to dodge NKs all game. If there's no doc, he's suicided.
He didn't need to claim PR to bus josh.
If there's no vig or other gunsmith miller, his claim will be very suspicious.
He did it so early, he ran the risk of counterclaim.
He claimed a role-changing mechanic. If there turns out not to be one, which will become evident fairly soon, it would be probable that he lied.

There is no "WIFOM" in any of this. He would have taken an enormous risk that would likely leave the scum-team with only one player. As the game continues, it will be very obvious what the truth is. Painting Who as a possible lynch is silly.

The only way I see Who as possible scum is if he's a Usurper, which seems extremely unlikely.

[Kagami]

At the very least, I would be expecting you to support Geist's mass-claim plan given your beliefs.

[Kagami]

@geists: Changed my mind, I support mass-claim. This is ridiculous.

[Kagami]

Does your new role seem in any way related to your flavor?

[Kagami]

Your role changed, and you did nothing N1, and you won't claim? Your character already claimed, and it's seriously questionable at best. The only thing we know for sure is that your slot had knowledge of the goons alignment. I'm leaning heavily towards mafia bus.

We're not leaning that direction. We feel pretty confident that scum are in {Kagami, NS, Zeph}.

Why has fish left suspicion-land?

[Kagami]

K, I'll pretend LML is popcorning to me.

I'm vanilla, picked a JA character. Role PM is very plain and makes no mention or reference to my pick or any other flavor. Would appreciate being zapped if zapping gives PRs. Thought you were the vig, NS.

popcorn to fishy.

p-edit: I think claiming source (GoT or JA) might be useful, actual name seems unnecessary and poss dangerous.

[Kagami]

You're ridiculous. You've decided that Who-slot is town, and hence an actual N0 gunsmith, but persist that there couldn't be a vig.

[Kagami]

Not sure it's a good idea, Juls. Empking is familiar with Mind Screw II; I'm extremely leery of deathnote-like abilities here.

[Kagami]

We can decide after mass-claim. It might be useful, but for now I think any pattern is likely going to just be JA vs GoT.

[Kagami]

Any reason not to zap yourself N1?

[Kagami]

Just the verb I chose to use for it =\

[Kagami]

What evidence? There is no vig evidence.

Worried about a cult now.

Cults are extremely unfashionable in closed setups now. NS's role may be very similar to the frenchie what found an artefact.

[Kagami]

I don't even know what other verb I'd use for a role change power...

I had absolutely no knowledge that NS had a gun, or I'd have been more open to the possibility of no vig.

[Kagami]

Any particular reason to target who?

Does your flavor seem to correspond to NS's?

[Kagami]

And why didn't you go along with the Who guilty? His claim should have been especially believable for you.

[Kagami]

And why didn't you go along with the Who guilty? His claim should have been especially believable for you.

Nevermind this, you said you were gone and your posts are pretty consistent with your claim.

[Kagami]

popcorn?

[Kagami]

re: flavor - I meant, does your role-changifying beam have similar flavor to the NS zap (turn into creature from another dimension)?

[Kagami]

And is it usable on the dead?

[Kagami]

Ok, operafia is over. Can you explain the metaread, geists?

[Kagami]

I wouldn't say the artefact was cultlike, but with the claims so far, there are mechanical parallels with last game.

Spoiler: SUPREME 1 setup

Anyway, I can describe the setup of the first game for the lazy:

3-10 standard 13p setup.

scum (wolves):
-vanillaizer
-compulsive monk recruiter
-Wiretapper (detects if a player has a QT, for finding the original monk)

Town
-Monk
-VT that starts with an artefact
-Gunsmith
-vig

Special mechanics:
Monkery can choose to either seer investigate or be bulletproof for the night (publicly stated, though with a code phrase for either ability)
Whoever has the artefact can pass it to another player at night. All players who have had the artefact are immune to vanilla-ization, though only the original owner knows that.

[Kagami]

I think popcorn is on zeph.

And yes, I've been curious for a while about the meta-read, which could only come from rock operafia, so obviously I couldn't ask about it before.

[Kagami]

Yes, fish, I still think you're scum.

Zeph-slot is a null lynch.

Anyone who actually thinks I'm scum is willfully misreading the intent behind josh's posts.

[Kagami]

Zeph is new, he's allowed to say silly things. You are not. That's not the only reason I don't like your slot, anyway.

The only meaningful evidence against zeph is that he may have replaced out because of pressure.

[Kagami]

So the fact that he acted like anyone who suggested he hammered scum as scum was a crazy person is good with you?

And what other reasons do you suspect me? I'd love to hear them. I have a nice pot of camomile tea brewing and some crumpets if you are interested.

If he actually believes it, it's ok with me.

It does seem to be the case that he has no scum games, so I can see an argument there, but the timing of the replacement request advert suggests a flake rather than a replacement request. I do like the players on the wagon for the most part, but I dislike it's strongest advocate.

I don't want to make a laundry list that's too long, but the following things also ping to me:

-Sheeping geist's "strong advocacy" statement, then admitting advocacy
-Role parallels to scum-roles from SUPREME
-Challenge to keep my vote on you
-You vanilla-ized our only investigator on N0, then claim no action on N1

[Kagami]

I think you should consider evidence that you, and in this game only you, have access to, ferry. Evidence that scum-kagami couldn't have predicted anyone in the game would acquire.

I'm willing to drop FF for now.

What do you think about LML?

[Kagami]

just ferry.

[Kagami]

If we get to 24 hours prior to deadline with no replace, I'll vote zeph.

[Kagami]

I replaced into NY 171 with an L-1 wagon and 100 pages to read.

Some people are just crazy.

[Kagami]

It makes very little sense for NS to be able to zap a player and then give the zapping power to someone else if he were scum. Scum would just pass it back and forth and the passing mechanic would be pointless, and he also wouldn't have made it public knowledge that it's passable.

The passing mechanic only makes sense to me as something that keeps the role out of scum hands and to help it evade the NK.

[Kagami]

You want interections? Why don't you have any opinions on Josh's interactions?

[Kagami]

I don't understand why a scum role would have a passing mechanic, nor why scum would report that mechanic, given that optimal scum-play would be to pass it amongst themselves.

[Kagami]

Thirding the motion for extension.

[Kagami]

Tq.

[Kagami]

Replacement advert has is now two pages from the most recent :<

[Kagami]

I did. I stand by the fact that I think that Josh was a major scale bus. That's what I got from that. Sort posts by name, LoudmouthLee. My first 5-6 posts were about that. Thanks!

This is ridiculous. Your first 5-6 posts are ridiculous.

Lay out for me a reasoned case for day 1 being a bus, who the bussers are, and how that makes sense with the current claims on the table.

[Kagami]

VOTE: Zeph

[Kagami]

I have a hard time believing NS's role belongs to scum.

NS has a gun, and is thus the only gunsmith miller. I've never heard of a gunsmith being in a game without a possible false-positive. NS-scum means that empking is throwing a very unusual red herring at us, or LC is scum with him, which I find pretty unlikely.

NS had to pass his power. Why would scum have to pass their power? Wouldn't they just pass it to their partner? The obvious best scum-play would be to just pass it back and forth and not claim the passing mechanic.

As a town mechanic, however, passing makes a lot of sense. It prevents the setup being ruined by the PR-maker being NKed/lynched early on. Day 2 massclaim would have pretty much put us in a mountainous game if the PR-maker were simply NKed.

Lastly, we all sent one pick and only one pick, which is pretty unusual for a UPick. Given that "Rains of Castamere" was allowed, I wouldn't be surprised if emp just didn't care what people sent and allowed redundant picks. I see no reason for scum-NS to lie about his pick anyway, unless you think they're alignment indicative (like, all scum have GoT picks)

Although others seem to disagree, I'm pretty happy with the LML track. LML was indeed townread by most everyone, and the track nearly conf-innos him to my mind since he'd be very likely the scum chosen to make the NK. Tracking one of the PR-claims would be silly, since their roles are completely confirmable by their targets, and it's also likely that the track would be anticipated by the scumteam.


Btw, has anyone here played any games with vezokpiraka prior to this one?

And I too would like to hear a bit from beli.

[Kagami]

Yes, I don't think that's a reasonable possibility.

I was only asked for one and sent one, I assumed that so did most people.

[Kagami]

...

FF, how many did you submit?

[Kagami]

@NS: What was your original role's name?

[Kagami]

I can think of three explanations for the Darcy thing, one of which is that Empking simply didn't care about redundancy.

I agree that it's weird not to use it night 1, but FF is guilty of the same.

Another question to NS: Did you receive the transformer at the end of N0, or did you also not use it N0?

[Kagami]

NS claims to have sent in many picks, so it's definitely odd. Normally, the mod would prob just make NS one of his secondary choices.

So far, I don't even see the point of our picks being limited to JA/GoT, nor any reason why there can't be two darcys, so it's not clear to me how that's alignment indicative.

Emp might even have thought it inappropriate to take a secondary pick since he didn't request or receive multiple picks from other players, idk

[Kagami]

The only really alignment indicative explanation I can think of is that NS zapped someone else (scumbuddy) and/or the zapper doesn't actually transform you into your pick. Then NS would have claimed to have transformed into Darcy believing that this is the correct way to claim this, not realizing that FF had already revealed his pick as Darcy.

I just think that's less likely than the possibility that two players were allowed to potentially be Darcy

[Kagami]

Well sure, he's the "pride" of pride and prejudice, which he overcomes by the novels conclusion.

I would think that it's not only possible for one to be scum and one to be town, but likely. I'm trying to think through which one. NS's behavior as town is far from "townish," but that's par for the course for him. I've been in two games with NS (me as scum, him as town in both of them), and he always seemed like an easy mislynch (though I did NK him in one because I thought he was a PR). His role as he's claimed it, which is to some extent confirmed, seems very much like a town role to me, whereas we have no such confirmation with regard to FF's.

Some aspects of FF's play do seem unlikely as scum, but I'm more than a little concerned that he didn't die last night (yes, WIFOM, blah blah blah).

[Kagami]

@NS: What was your original role's name?

Another question to NS: Did you receive the transformer at the end of N0, or did you also not use it N0?

Could you answer these, NS?

[Kagami]

@FF: Have you asked Empking any questions during this game, and if so, could you tell us what they were (excluding anything role-related/revealing)?

[Kagami]

Why do you think NS-scum didn't know the town win-con until you posted it?

[Kagami]

Because I feel like if he had the win con, from being town or from a provided fake claim, that he would have used it to come across as genuine town. That's the same reason I included mine when I claimed, I figured town would see it for what it was.

If scum weren't provided with it, then wouldn't you think that quoting it (and thus conf-towning yourself) would be a pretty egregious breach of the rules?

[Kagami]

...

I win when all scum has been eliminated and at least one town player remains.

This is the win condition

exactly

. You can't possibly have believed this was kosher without either knowing that scum have access to it or first asking Empking if you could quote it.

[Kagami]

There are 3. And I've already pmed Emp to clarify, so we can either keep going round and round on if I broke the rules or not or we can wait for him to reply.

I don't think you broke a rule or you'd be dead by now. The question to my mind is whether you are:

Town who thinks that scum weren't informed of the town win-con, but believed it would be ok to quote the win-con they don't have access to, thus confirming yourself as town. You can say what you like about changing a word and punctuation, but it's very obvious you wouldn't be able to say what you said without access to the actual win condition. You then would have to have lucked out that Empking didn't interpret this as a rule violation.

or

Scum who either checked with emp if it was ok to quote the win-con, or simply assumed it should be fine since you'd know that the scumteam had access to it.

[Kagami]

I didn't really think much of it until I was reviewing the game this afternoon, it's not the most obvious point. What I said in 802 is absolutely correct no matter how you want to spin it.

[Kagami]

Yes, that's how rules work in these games. No sensible players believe you did something that empking considered illegal.

[Kagami]

Run me through your scum read on me again? Cause last reads list you put out had me as begrudgingly town, even with me pushing for your lynch. Today starts you flavor claim and I call bullshit and all of a sudden I am scum now. So how about you actually play the game and explain how that happened since you have done a total of Zero scum hunting this game. Hell, to be completely honest you have barely fucking played.

I think the opposite. The scummier aspect of NS's play today is that he didn't vote you in his opening post.

I've played two recent games with NS; in both games, he was town while I was scum. He basically did little to no scumhunting in either game, and quickhammered the doctor day 1 in one of them without asking for a claim. I know of other town games he's been in wherein he's failed to submit important night actions multiple times. I'm willing to give him some leeway on less-than-optimal town play.

Why do you guys think the gunsmith miller claim is fake?

(btw, the best evidence for NS-scum to my mind is not bad town play, but rather 210. I still have a very hard time discounting the gunsmith miller claim though, and am waiting for a response from empking about other things.)

[Kagami]

Did you mean 210 or 211?

I meant 210, in which the only thing that josh suggests shouldn't be mass-claimed is a passable object.

[Kagami]

Kagami, what certainty do you have that no other person will have a gun once their roles are toggled? If LC was ONLY a N0 gunsmith I would be in agreement but he was a full fledged gunsmith so there may be a gun-miller to come into existence. I am not saying it is bad logic, but it's not confirmed either.

Possible, but that would be a little silly. Also, NS claimed the gun before mass-claim had ended, and the manner that he claimed it sounded genuine to me.

Do you think he made up "laser gun with no batteries?"

[Kagami]

It seems like a very odd setup decision to give a scum player an item that implies gunsmith miller, while hiding the real miller among transformation roles or not having a miller at all.

If the gun is not just to millerize him, then where does he get this battery from and what does it do? Simplest explanation to me is that one of the characters has it, and is able to give it to NS for some purpose, most likely to give him vig powers. This again implies NS-town.


I've asked empking a number of questions, and will probably weigh in harder on one side or the other after he replies.

[Kagami]

O, and nobody commented on my question earlier about whether or not they've played with vezok here or elsewhere. Does that mean everyone is claiming no prior experience with vezok?

[Kagami]

NS, what do you think about Cho and LC?

[Kagami]

If it makes you feel better, I consider you the most likely scum-partner if FF is scum, but I'm leaning toward both NS and FF being town, which would make you almost certainly town. If both NS and FF are town, then there's absolutely no scum motivation to resisting the 1v1.

[Kagami]

The kill flavor is an interesting point. In the first SUPREME, emp used kill flavor to distinguish vig kills (shot) from Wolf kills (slashed). For them to be in the OP suggests that they're important, but for emp to have been inconsistent on geists suggests to me that something more subtle than SK is the culprit.

If kill flavor matters, then neither one sounds like something "In Flux" would do.

[Kagami]

Did we get a prod on Cho?

[Kagami]

FF's role is "In Flux"

[Kagami]

... In light of there being some kind of gunsmith GF ...

It seems we share the same suspicion about the stabbing flavor.

[Kagami]

"I believe that the scum must actually send a member to make a kill"

This is pretty much standard in 100% of the games nowadays, and I agree that the different kill methods are likely different flavors for different members of the scum-team.

[Kagami]

(and I think that's a legit townslip from LML, if there weren't already enough reasons to townread him)

[Kagami]

I want Cho to weigh in.

I think it's more likely that Cho made the N1 kill, but her end-of-day 2 performance was so suspicious that the third scum, who is a gunsmith GF, had to make the night 2 kill.

[Kagami]

...

Cho also bothers me a bit. Her posts are all reasonable, but it seems like she's trying to avoid put herself out on a limb too much, and I generally didn't like the Zeph wagon earlier today. I'm not sure what else to say other than that she gives me the sort of vibe Huntress did in my first newbie.

...

Cho didn't want to be the one to make the N2 kill. The only other player LC hinted at being a likely track target was LML. Scum probably would not have revealed their alternative kill flavor unless it was necessary to do so.

Consider my vote on Cho, pseudo L-1.

[Kagami]

The Cho wagon looks much better than the NS wagon in terms of its constituents.


We already know that a vanilla goon possesses a gun. The scum who does not possess a gun is likely the exception. I also don't doubt the "laser gun without batteries" claim, regardless of his alignment. Do you think a scum player with a "laser gun without batteries" would have "shoot" flavor on their kill? He would have to have gotten the batteries by night 1, and then Empking would have to have made the laser gun have the same kill flavor that we'd expect Josh's goon gun to have.

NS as the stabber actually makes more sense to me than him being the shooter. I also don't think he'd have been shy about making the kill himself. Even if he were tracked, which is unlikely given LC's scumreads the day prior, he might have been able to wriggle out of it, while his partner certainly couldn't.

It also harms him that the scum revealed a gunsmith GF, since it makes the gunsmith miller aspect of his claim less likely. Why would he have the stabber make the kill, and then point it out when we had all missed it?

I think the scumteam revealed something they didn't want to reveal by showing us their stabbing flavor. I think they had to have a good reason to do that, and a good reason to "shoot" on day 1. Cho-scum satisfies both points.


The mystery to me, though, is why didn't they stab night 1? They could have gotten an LC lynch if they kept stabbing, and made us think that goons don't have guns.

[Kagami]

@kag: Why would they expect me to be a viable lynch candidate on day 2? Besides, even if there were two nights of stabbing it would be a pretty serious leap to assume that goons don't have guns, since the wiki page explicitly states that all mafia except doctors have guns.

Fair point, though I would have considered attempting to frame you as scum if it were possible, rather than have you as near conf-town.

As far as your spec about PR's and kill flavors, I agree with NS. Since most mafia roles have guns, I would expect the kill flavor to be "shot" even with wacky future gadgets involved.

My theory is that all scum except one "shoots." The scum that stabs is a gunsmith GF. I'm just pointing out that it would make very little flavor sense for NS to "shoot" if his claim is to be believed (and I believe it).

NS's theory that there's an SK makes little sense to me.

Re:Cho, if this is a scum replace-out, I agree with LML's sentiment on it.

[Kagami]

@MTD:

What do you think about Cho? I think you're the only one here who has experience with her.

[Kagami]

Btw, post timing makes me 100% sure the NS is town. 871 at 5:04, votecount at 5:07. Empking did indeed reply to a message from NS.

[Kagami]

I can imagine lots of things it might do to dead people. Revival seems very unlikely, since that would be completely broken. Treestumping/restless spiriting don't seem as helpful as making a new PR, and there's a very good chance it simply does nothing, or transforms the dead into corpses of their characters.

If you find NS suspicious, then the obvious best thing to do is to zap a VT so that we can confirm NS's claim. Transforming the dead seems like a bad idea.

[Kagami]

If it did something like that though, he'd have absolutely used it and passed it to his buddy on N1.

[Kagami]

I'm going to giggle my nuts off if both NS and Fish wind up being town.

I think that's reasonably likely. I hate walls, but I'll make one to summarize what I've said so far regarding this and add a couple more points:

Spoiler: NS

His play has been bad so far; he chose not to use his power the first two nights, and his reads list from day 2 had some pretty ridic points (specifically, scumread on LC, who to his mind should have been confirmed gunsmith given his being a gunsmith miller). I also don't like Josh's mention of a possible passable item.

BUT

He kind of always misses night actions and does anti-town things.

He has not used his role the way scum likely would. He didn't have to claim that it's passable, he did. He could have passed it back and forth with his buddies, or even passed it off without telling people that he originally had it.

His claim of "laser gun without battery" seems too odd to disbelieve, and fits somewhat with the sort of flavor FF has claimed. From what we can tell, this ability is simply "gunsmith miller," once again implying town.

We'll find out tomorrow if the transformer has a pro-town effect, which it almost certainly does if it actually changes people into their picks (implying the power is identical to FF's). If it does, then it makes no sense for scum to be allowed to not use it. Usually scum-has-protown-ability means that the ability is compulsive (as it was in SUPREME 1).

Lastly, I find it incredibly unlikely that NS didn't send the PM to empking he claimed in 871. Empking seems to be logging on exclusively to mod this game. NS tells us at 5:04pm that empking has sent him an answer to his PM, and there's a votecount at 5:07pm. That's a pretty freaking incredible coincidence if NS is lying about having received a reply. It's possible that NS sent a message about something else or that NS asked "If I were town, how would you reply to..." but I find that very unlikely coming from NS.

Spoiler: FF

I actually don't fully understand some of the townreads headed in his direction. I find his play neutral if not a little fishy (haha, get it?).

His role as we understand it does imply town, though. He nerfed Who/LC, but even if he is scum, I don't see how he would have known that would happen. Juls hasn't complained about whatever happened to her, so we can assume the ability is positive utility. As we learned from SUPREME 1, pro-town ability doesn't mean town, but does usually mean compulsive if scum, and it seems reasonable to believe that FF did in fact do nothing night 1. (An alternative possibility is that he can't target himself or anyone he's targeted before, which means he could have zapped his partner night 1, but his posting habits partially corroborate his excuse for missing the night 1 action.)

Also, while the compulsive monkinator of SUPREME 1 couldn't simply kill the newly made monks (since the monkery was bulletproof), there's no obvious reason FF couldn't just kill his transformation targets the same night he zaps them. If Juls has become something snowball-y, like LC did, then it also makes little sense that FF is scum, since a snowballing mechanic implies that the zapped person is supposed to stay hidden.

[Kagami]

"In Flux" has enough of a futuristic/sci-fi tone to fit with captain whatever of the 23rd century and a laser gun. NS claimed first; if he completely made it up, he would have gotten very lucky that you had such a role that in no way fits with the theme of GoT/JA.

[Kagami]

Kagami, are you going to vote Cho or someone else?
LML, would you rather lynch Cho or NS?

I want MTD to check in, but I'm still pro-Cho lynch. MTD has played with Cho before and may have some worthwhile insight into the slot. Also, emp is making an effort to get her replaced.

[Kagami]

PrivateI replaces Cho

PrivateI, thank you for replacing into an impossible situation. You're a good person. With that, please take some time and reread the thread. You are accountable for your slot's actions (which spells doom), but we're going to give you every opportunity to let us know what you're thinking.

If you don't feel like reading, PI, I'm happy to summarize for you. We don't have too much time, come check in~

[Kagami]

He's alive on sitechat, I just wanted him to say hi :<

[Kagami]

I feel like the current gamestate is such that any scum lynch will be game-winning. Cho-scum implies LC and beli town to my mind, which yields a very small suspect pool.

p-edit: If cho were really ns, the replace-out would mean conf-scum.

pp-edit: -____-

[Kagami]

If cho is scum, I consider my theory that cho didn't want to perform the night 1 kill for fear of a track to be accurate, implying LC town. I'm pretty confident you're town anyway, but that would be nigh-confirmation.

For the beli aspect, I consider beli only viably scum if one of NS or FF are scum by virtue of his resistance to the 1v1. If Cho is scum, there's almost certainly only one left, making that impossible.

Looked through cho's posts; she's someone's alt, but do you really think she's ns's? The slot is conf-scum if that's so.

[Kagami]

It doesn't bother anyone else that privateI is here, but hasn't posted?

[Kagami]

MTD too

[Kagami]

I went through all her posts, and I see no compelling reason to believe Cho is ns.

[Kagami]

O yay, you're here.

Cho had claimed vanilla during the massclaim, but she ninja vanished before telling us what she became on night 1; could you fill us in?

[Kagami]

I changed last night. I had picked Elinor Dashwood. I became something that is in game of thrones.

I'm very concerned that only vanillas are dying.

[Kagami]

Juls, did the verbiage on the transformer suggest whether or not the transformation took place before or after the night kill? E.g. If you turned someone bulletproof, could they be killed that same night?

[Kagami]

My flavor is

extremely

role-indicative.

[Kagami]

I'm not following on the role, so NS became something that has nothing to do with his flavor, but your transformation is much narrower and makes sense?

My transformation's flavor corresponds to the role, yes.

[Kagami]

You're almost certainly a masonizer, juls.

[Kagami]

Scum wouldn't be dragons, so nothing.

[Kagami]

aa, screw it. I'm your dragon, hence why I became not my pick.

[Kagami]

I have a dragony power that is related to flight.

[Kagami]

I imagine you masonize us, but it might be something else, idk. You should target me tonight regardless.

[Kagami]

He almost certainly target MTD.

I think the transformer is in the game, and that it was a mistake to say that you gave it to LML.

For whatever reason, emp decided to ignore my pick and make my hidden flavor a dragon, for the purposes of your role. The transformer probably made me a dragon independent of the action you performed.

Much like NS's initial role probably meant that he was looking for a character with a battery (among the "transformation" roles), you are meant to look for your dragon.

[Kagami]

Because PI already posted and surely would have mentioned being transformed.

As for why he'd target MTD, no idea.

[Kagami]

Alright, my theory upon seeing the LML death was that scum wanted to have all members of the town transformed for some purpose, but that appears to be inconsistent with FF targeting LC.

@LC: Don't need to respond to this, but if you gained another shot, I would strongly consider protecting juls over tracking (unless we lynch scum, then tracking is obviously best).

[Kagami]

Jul's claim makes her pretty much conf-town to me; her role sounds like it's a seeking mason.

LC is more obviously town then before. Scum clearly agreed that he had cleared LML.

I still like beli for town if FF is not scum by virtue of the resistance to the 1v1.

FF, I don't like that a mostly-townread PR-maker is still alive, though targeting LC again makes little sense for scum (and I'm surprised that it would even be allowed)

MTD, PoE puts him in scum-land. He hasn't really done anything at all.

PI-slot is still terrible. I agree entirely with LC's assessment of his post today.

[Kagami]

Well, nothing at all isn't quite right, 781 is a pretty awful vote.

[Kagami]

@PI

in micro 291, for example, TIP and I had different kill flavors. See also the wiki page.

Why do you think there was stabbing flavor for the night 2 kill?

[Kagami]

I don't mind if other people have opinions, but yes, it was specifically for PI.

[Kagami]

I had liked FF to be lynched early yesterday, but I have a hard time imagining how his role would fit as scum, especially with the apparent second zap on LC.

If scum-FF could just zap no one, or zap the same person over and over, why wouldn't he just zap his scumbuddy over and over? We know he can't be forced to target town or the ability would surely be compulsive and then we have a missing zap on night 1. It's also unclear why he would claim a PR at all.

I'd rather lynch among PI or MTD, and I feel better about PI. The kill flavor change still implies to me that scum A killed night 1 and 3, while scum B killed night 2, when the tracker was a threat. The only two track targets LC has crumbed were LML and Cho-slot. PI's catch-up posts are ridiculous, wherein he pretends that he didn't read the OP and saw who was already dead prior to reading, and he makes a point to only start "catching up" while the thread is open.

[Kagami]

First sentence came out awkwardly: I was suspecting FF early yesterday, but realized that it was unlikely for role related reasons.

[Kagami]

I'd been wondering that, which is why I asked you about whether the transform came before or after the kill.

[Kagami]

I swear to god, this idea of "informational lynches" is the worst thing I've ever heard of. Tell me though, what did you learn from lynching NS? Last I checked the only useful thing about lynching him is that we know he's town so at least we can't mislynch him twice.

I think what I mean to say is that if I end up being wrong about my suspicions of Fish, I would rather be wrong today and not tomorrow since it's likely MYLO tomorrow.

Why is it mylo?

[Kagami]

if they don't kill, sure. Otherwise it's lylo

[Kagami]

LC, was there a flavor change to your second transformation?

[Kagami]

What do you think of the seven players currently alive?

[Kagami]

What about the players who are not fish?

[Kagami]

You know, one of the most difficult things for me to get used to playing on here as opposed to where I came from is the length of each phase. I hate waiting for things to happen and during 2 week days that's all I feel happens sometimes. Like right now, we are all sitting around waiting for two people to come back in thread and contribute.

Yep. Not sure what else to do though?

If they come back with nothing, we know they're scum.
If they come back with rubbish, then they're probably scum and we get some information out of it.
If they come back with a towny-town bombshell, then yay for us.

Waiting is pretty win.

(this post is also essentially a prod dodge, I haven't much to say until we hear from PI.)

[Kagami]

Alright, this will be a short game. PI is obv-scum, SK is prob scum.

No one without an agenda to keep mislynches open would make that catchup and conclude "LC is more likely scum than PI-slot." Even the content of the catchup itself has every single thing PI-slot says and does being scummy, while LC-slot goes from nigh-certain town to top scumread because of two not-so-bad posts?

O, and let's ignore the conf-town gunsmith miller and evidence that there is non-gunbearing scum.

The catchup reads to me: "I'm going to NK juls and FF, and I want to keep everyone else open for mislynching. Bonus points if I can divert the Cho-wagon."

Intent to hammer PI.

[Kagami]

1. I don't think 539 is terrible, it even struck me as a reasonable point at the time, and I don't think that 653 is as bad as you're saying it is.

2. No, because they would think a real gunsmith is in the game who would be certain to CC them.

3. This is a reasonable point.

[Kagami]

Saturday is cutting it a little thin, but I suppose =\

[Kagami]

I'm around, have to be on site at 10, so I'm guaranteed online tonight if juls isn't.

[Kagami]

Hmm, didn't expect a dragonifier o.o

I killed FF, all the plausible scumteams I came up with included him or would seek to kill him themselves, so it seemed safe. I strongly considered the possibility that the scum were hunting for specific transformations, which I thought likely pointed to FF being scum anyway.

@nati-ferry: If I were scum, you would have died night 1 (and I'd never have killed vezok unless there was a really good reason for it)

[Kagami]

Timing of the VC was an mod-error, but a subtle one; I don't blame emp for that. Somehow you guys still got a lynch through on him anyway =\

[Kagami]

I still don't understand how the VC conf-towned him. It just confirmed that he asked a town-looking question, which he could have easily done as scum.

To me it was pretty relevant, I just don't see scum-NS asking an "If I were town, would you answer..." question.

[Kagami]

I maintain the opinion that a scumteam with differing kill flavors is borderline bastard.

I actually really liked that as a mechanic. Imo, godfathers are pretty much bastard, but this version, where the GF is identified by an obviously-GF kill flavor, is much much better.

[Kagami]

The problem is that mods and reviewers hold the notion that cop is a powerful role, and balance accordingly. They tend to think "nerf the cop" roles like a godfather is changing a very strong role into a still pretty strong role, when in fact it changes the strong role into a role that is almost completely useless, and potentially negative utility.

If the meta forces people to have little faith in a cop result, then the cop has no utility. When cops and trackers and whatnot are as likely to be useless as they are to be useful, setups become 3-10 mountainous, which is horrible.

Also, the role is straight up bastard, but pretends like it isn't. Imagine I make a 9 player game: 6 VT, 1 cop, 2 goons. I tell the cop he's sane, but he's really naive; The game is clearly bastard. How about this setup: 6 VT, 1 cop, 2 godfathers? Oh wow, this second setup is totally ok! It's even Normal~. There are slight differences between the two setups, but only under circumstances where a cop inno gets lynched (which is unlikely), and then it's still not clear which one is screwing town harder.

Anyway, that's not this game. I thought the mechanism of cop-nerfing was pretty ok here, since the kill flavors revealed the presence of a godfather.

[Kagami]

I don't see why the transformers weren't told that they turned people into PRs. That NS didn't target anyone night 1 because he was afraid to seems like a flaw.

A night action should also be expected to be wasted because someone would likely target a corpse, which is a little silly. Is there a reason FF and NS's transformer had different targeting restrictions?