Mini 1567 - Such Unusual Pretermen... ...Evil Too!

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Ok, I'm here. If anyone has any questions about night actions or so forth feel free to ask, I'll be reading up a bit. I don't really understand why kag is receiving flack for this vig speculation. Just to reiterate though I was a gunsmith night zero; I am now something completely different. I got two role PM's and everything.

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This mass-claim thing seems like a fishing attempt, though.

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Actually, that was a really dumb way to phrase it. What I mean is that I see no reason to mass-claim.

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Hm, I'd claim if people really want to mass-claim but I don't really understand why you dislike who's play.

Thought-experiment: You are a gunsmith with a N0 guilty; what do you do?
Imo, claim a cop guilty and fess up when the dude claims non-vig is basically ideal play. I would have started out from the first post with the cop guilty personally but I have a (short) history of over-zealous claims.

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I didn't do anything N1 though, I feel fine claiming that.

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That's simply ridiculous. I don't know how to even address that really. Do you think Who's play was bad considering Gunsmith guilty? If Who were scum, why wouldn't he expect to be counterclaimed? Why claim gunsmith at all when there was no reason to suspect a vig?

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I'm not totally up to date but what do you think about Bel?

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That's a little funny, I hypothesized that such a role was used on me N0. Does it make people into their picks? Because that's what happened to me.

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I don't think my role and flavor are related.

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NS, if you used it on me, do you think I might become a gunsmith again?

NS says the word "alternate" my guess is that he is the inverse of whatever hit me N0.

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At this rate, I think there is a lot more role weirdness than I initially expected. Imo, mass claim is not such a bad idea anymore.

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Actually, I'm more surprised that it seems LML might actually be right about no vig despite the evidence to the contrary.

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I suspect NS is town unless someone else with a gun steps up.

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As I said earlier, if you look at what people have claimed, no one seems to have actually started with their flavor pick. I think Fish's role switches his target's role to the pick. I would guess that it probably is, in fact, a toggle.

Also, I'm pretty sure my character is related to my role.

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Oops, I meant unrelated.

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I think we should pick targets for fish and NS tonight before we lynch anyone. I suppose I'll claim my new role though.

Once per game I can choose to use my night action. It is either protective or investigative, and it gets better each night. Last night Who could have reported or bodygaurded. Tonight I can doc or track.

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From what I've read about kagami (which is just about every kag-game on this site and a couple on another). Kagami-scum is more taken to opportunism than she has been this game. The only reason I don't think it would be a good idea to lynch Fish is because I want to make him target a VT to see what his action does. It seems strange to me that we might have two town roles that change people. If we hadn't lost three of the role changing actions we would potentially have a role madness game by now.

I would be interested in hearing what Geists has to say about Kagami though, I feel like I may be biased.

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Uh, ok. I'm a one-shot investigator/protective. N1 I report or bodygaurd. I get better options each night. I would have to survive pretty late to get them though, so I plan on using it tonight. That makes me a N2 doc/tracker in effect, which Who could reasonably consider bordering on VT useless.

The second post was in response to NS saying that the word "alternate" was in his role PM. The way I figured it, we have two roles, the one we start with and our alternate flavor role, therefore it would make sense if his role switched his target's. I was asking because I wanted to figure out how NS's role worked, because I figured I had been targeted by a similar one. That said, I would rather be a gunsmith (which is effectively a cop with NS as a miller) than the much weaker role I am now.

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Are you joking? You think I'm faking and NS is scum, so that makes town all vanilla except you?

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Also how does that not make sense? You know for a fact that you changed my role on N0, and with the town make-up, it would be hard to believe that the one investigative role is lying.

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I strongly believe we should dictate NS and fish's actions tonight before we lynch anyone. Fish nerfed me night 0, but we have no idea how his role would act on a VT. Afaik, alignment changing is bastard unless we know it is a possibility in advance, so I think NS should also target a VT tonight.

@fish: The fact that who could not have known town make-up is exactly the point. There is no investigator that could have counter-claimed and in fact, there is a PR with a gun. Hypothetical scum-who could not have known he wouldn't be countered, and unless NS is also scum, you would have to hypothesize a rolecop or blind luck. At that point, you have a ridiculous conspiracy theory that would involve an incredibly risky gambit with virtually no chance of success.

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The reason most of the town looks scummy is because the dialogue has somehow shifted to the insanity zone where this setup is based on a large theme game with an unkillable PR-izer (as opposed to say, SUPREME 1) and lynching scum is scummier than not lynching scum.

I like Bel's recent posting and have changed my opinion on Fish's slot (due purely to his role). What I find pretty weird though is that he thinks Juls is a top town read. I don't really know what to think of her "zap" thing, other than that I doubt Kagami knew NS had a gun if even she is scum. The push on NS is pretty bad though, mostly because I don't see why someone would hope on a wagon championed by someone who thinks it is scummy to not post a wincon.

Cho also bothers me a bit. Her posts are all reasonable, but it seems like she's trying to avoid put herself out on a limb too much, and I generally didn't like the Zeph wagon earlier today. I'm not sure what else to say other than that she gives me the sort of vibe Huntress did in my first newbie.

Other than that, I think Kagami is posting much like she usually does. MTD doesn't post much, but I've pretty strongly agreed with most of what he has said. I don't really know what to think about LML.

pedit: I second the motion for an extension.

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I guess I'll give you that. Idk, my position on NS is based on the fact that I think one and probably both of the transforming roles are town. Also because he has a gun.

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That isn't a discrepancy though.

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If we're going to have a deadline lynch, I'd prefer Zeph over NS. I still say his role seems more likely town than not, and I don't understand why we're considering lynching a PR over a completely worthless player slot.

VOTE: Zeph

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Yeah, I suppose, and I would like his slot to be replaced, but unless that happens we would have no reason to believe that.

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NS's role is highly confirmable and I see no reason to consider it any less likely town than yours. At any rate, your "setup spec" is nuts and my slot is practically IC.

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I may be an ass, though. Only time will tell.

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Zeph had no replacement for practically a week and we have no reason to expect that he would have been replaced in the near future. I tracked LML and he didn't go anywhere. As far as I can tell, that's pretty compelling evidence for LML-town, I estimate he would have had about a 75% chance of having gone somewhere as scum.

As for reads, I think Cho is prob scum, not sure who else for partner.

VOTE: Cho

Oh, btw, why were you so sure about juls? Did I miss something?

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Why would I track NS? I already knew he was going somewhere.

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Ok, I'll walk you through this slowly then.

Let's say I track NS, regardless of alignment I assume he has the role he claimed (if he doesn't we will know). He could target anywhere between 1-3 people. If he targets three people, then yeah, he's scum and he made the nightkill, but this is no different from tracking a VT.

He'll have to claim his other targets. Since both of his claimed actions are necessarily known to the person he acted on, this is easily confirmable and pointless to track. Any fake action he claims would have to be targeted at either his partner or geists, so I doubt he would fake that.

And even if I hadn't considered all this, I would need to be pretty suspicious NS in the first place to justify the track, which I'm not.

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Everyone is VT except Fish, NS, and me, iirc.

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He doesn't pass the gun, he passes his role.

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Er, the rest of his role, I guess.

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No, no. He said NS passes the gun. NS explicitly doe not pass the gun.

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Although, tbh, I didn't know that he didn't also pass the gun.

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I disagree that LML was the towniest player until I got the track result. Feel free to disagree I guess. My thoughts were that Cho/LML were the most likely scum with Cho my top scum read and LML my second. I wanted to track someone with about 50% chance of being scum (my exact thoughts were that I wanted to reduce the Shannon entropy of the game state as much as possible). In retrospect, I was probably being arrogant about the 50% and Cho would have been a better target. If it makes you feel any better, I certainly feel much better about my grasp of the game now.

Additionally, I didn't want to track a claimed PR because if I tracked a scum PR, they would likely act even if they didn't carry out the NK which would confirm scum except in the case of NS or Fish. (Also what I already said about difficult to fake actions. I'm pretty confident in NS-town at this point.)

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NS had a carbon-copy of Fish's role as a passable object which was given to Juls.

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It's a question about game facts. Besides, I didn't even know that was targeted at Juls.

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Oh, I was answering Cho's question. Didn't see yours.

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Ah yeah, there it is. Sorry, bro.

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My main issue with this line of reasoning is that I just don't see what NS would be covering up.

If we assume he's lying, he must have either targeted his partner or Geists. I don't really see why he would cover up the first one, and it would be pretty baffling for him to target Geists when he was the NK (also, would Geists even flip VT if he was targeted?) I could see it as some sort of attempt at a track dodge, but this would only make sense if he thought both he and his partner had high odds of being tracked.

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I doubt either is lying about their role. The only question is whether NS is lying about his night action. As it is, I see little motive for this and I agree with kagami's point that passing is a town-oriented mechanic.

From a balance perspective, it seems like their roles probably have similar power to inventors. If this is the case, it would suggest a pretty high likelihood that they are cross-aligned. That said, we don't know how powerful the scum-team is and the only thing I know for sure about the effect of their actions is that Fish pretty clearly nerfed me. I could see both being town perhaps, but not both scum.

p-edit: I doubt characters are alignment indicative, and I'm somewhat inclined to believe that the duplicate is just a funny coincidence.

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I was a gunsmith, became a one-shot snowballing investigator/protective. Night one, I could have reported or bodyguard'd, but who saved the role. Night two, I could doc or track, I tracked LML. My role is now used up.

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Who believed he changed due to a hidden role mechanic, which is why he said N0. My role PM never said anything to that effect.

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Yeah, just a gunsmith and that after night 0 I got a new role PM.

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By which I mean that that second part was not part of the role PM, just part of my introduction to the game.

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Though it doesn't really matter, I am generally aware of what vezok is like. Also, it sounded like perhaps NS loaded his gun by zapping himself, since he is not PGO-ish.

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*now

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I don't think NS is scum. His role is pro-town and he is the only claimed gunsmith miller. But assuming Fish is town, I can see why he would be suspicious of NS's role. Other than that, looking at Fish's case, the arguments worth considering are that NS missed two night actions and Fish didn't like his reads list. The first point is definitely a little weird, but not that convincing. I also don't like his wagon or the manner in which people voted him.

If I had to choose between voting NS or Fish, I would probably vote fish; but I don't think there is any need for a 1v1. I don't like his posting as much this game as the previous game I played with him. His arguments seem weaker this time around, but I don't know what to make of that. In light of there being some kind of gunsmith GF, I think the setup would make more sense with both NS and Fish town.

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@kag: Why would they expect me to be a viable lynch candidate on day 2? I know I, for one, would not have anticipated any suspicion on my slot without a second claimed investigator. Besides, even if there were two nights of stabbing it would be a pretty serious leap to assume that goons don't have guns, since the wiki page explicitly states that all mafia except doctors have guns. Perhaps they were banking on no gunsmith miller, in which case hiding the gunsmith GF would cast doubt on the claim.

As far as your spec about PR's and kill flavors, I agree with NS. Since most mafia roles have guns, I would expect the kill flavor to be "shot" even with wacky future gadgets involved.

p-edit: Cho, the spec isn't all that important. Do you at least have thoughts on what you've read so far, like why you are voting NS or something along those lines? It sounds like you prob won't have to worry about sticking around much longer anyway.

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I just asked him myself (also if he's in his right mind). I assume your question was something along the lines of, "is kill flavor relevant to game mechanics?"

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Last time I did that I didn't get an answer and people were mean to me. :<

Why are you assuming that NS is lying without asking first? This is easy to test.

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He said it turned him into Darcy and that he is now PGO-ish.

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As far as I'm aware, alignment changing mechanics are considered bastard unless it is known that they might possibly exist beforehand.

Outside of that, there is only so much negative utility a transformer could bestow on a Vanilla (the only serious problem would be if it made someone suicidal). All in all, I don't think the transformer could possibly be all that dangerous.

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Could make them a restless spirit/treestump.

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I would imagine that if someone might be brought back into the game, they probably wouldn't have access to a dead QT. So I doubt just anyone could be brought back.

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Imo, there isn't really that much question about the positive utility of the role. The only possibility for WIFOM is if NS is scum and I doubt he is. We have lots of confirmed information about the transforming roles.

Either way, the best thing we are looking at with targeting dead people is probably some kind of treestump or restless spirit. Maybe revival, more likely nothing. Imo, zapping a town-read and passing to a different town-read is the optimal usage for the ability.

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I'm not particularly confident in my ability to read Kagami, but here goes.

I broadly agree with just about everything Kagami has posted so far and she has gone a little further than she might otherwise have to. Her stance against targeting a dead person tonight seemed unnecessarily pro-town, for instance. (Actually, I was waiting to see if she would do that.)

The main thing that bothers me about her is this:

Btw, post timing makes me 100% sure the NS is town. 871 at 5:04, votecount at 5:07. Empking did indeed reply to a message from NS.

To me, the only reasonable deduction is that NS clearly asked empking a question. It would be really stupid to fake mod communication without first checking that the mod would answer the question you claimed to ask, so I was never in any doubt that NS had asked a question. Though I agree with the conclusion that NS is town, this seems like it could be over-reaching to affirm something she already knew.

Other than that, I have no problem with Kagami. I think she is most likely town.

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NS gives us no more information than Cho unless he's town. The only non-confirmed info is his second target and his current role, which means nothing if we lynch him anyway. I don't understand this concept of an informational lynch anyway. Lynches aren't investigations; lynching someone to find out their role/targets is hugely counter-productive.

I refuse to vote NS unless you give me a good reason to think he's scum.

p-edit: I thought cho replaced notscience in a game once; are you even allowed to replace yourself?

pp-edit: srsly? The possibility of some kind of knife wielding scum has obvious relevance to my role, so I don't see how it's so unreasonable. Also, we have one vanilla goon flipped and it sounds like a lot of claimed town power, how do you propose the scum is balanced with two factions and only one-kill per night?

ppp-edit: How is my innocence tied to cho's scumness?

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Idk, aside from the towniness of his role, which already makes this NS wagon a bet against odds; NS posts read to me like someone trying to figure the game out.

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They both seem to be idle in site chat.

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Doesn't the wagon bother you? Besides, Kagami has claimed that Cho-slot is quite possibly conf-scum; why would you vote against that if you agree with just about everything Kagami has said today?

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I think the real question here is why are we not lynching/seriously considering lynching Cho-slot. It was a good idea yesterday and it remains a good idea.

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Iirc, PI came in the game, made posts that suggest he didn't know the game-state. Remained on a town lynch wagon that his predecessor never gave good reason for.

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It's like he just didn't even try reading overnight just so he could PBPA right now.

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Hey Juls, is your new role one-shot?

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So you zapped bel, and Kagami changed roles. Do you know of any reason for redirection? Also, who did you pass to.

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Oh, for the record, since we're talking about whether characters are role-indicative or not. I was Lucy Steele, but I don't know what that has to do with investigating or protecting.

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No, no. He targeted me. I was hoping he would claim a target first but it isn't that important.

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Seems to be the case.

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I swear to god, this idea of "informational lynches" is the worst thing I've ever heard of. Tell me though, what did you learn from lynching NS? Last I checked the only useful thing about lynching him is that we know he's town so at least we can't mislynch him twice.

If PI is scum, vote PI.

On an unrelated note, I'm not super sure what Fish wants out of me. My position hasn't changed much since yesterday, though I guess I should place a vote.

VOTE: PrivateI

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Yes, I am not Lucy Steele anymore.

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@Fish, nah. SK needs to catch up and we may as well hear from PI. If Juls hammered now it would be pretty suspicious, and if Kagami hammered it would basically be a scum-claim.

@SK and PI: Did either of you receive a "transformer" last night?

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Ok, so it looks like most of your scum-read on me is based on 539 and 652.

Fish I thought was somewhat scummy by play, but his role was a somewhat less townie version of NS's so I wanted additional information. At the time I guess I would have put him at null-scum or so.

As for 652, I thought NS was almost certainly town. His role was townie for a number of reasons and the aspects of his play that people found suspicious were fully in line with what I've seen of him in games I've read (the one I remember best is Earthbound Zero). Zeph on the other hand was a compromise. His behavior was maybe a little suspicious when he was around, though it looked like his disappearance was a non-indicative site-flake. There was no real examination of the people I was interested in at the time (Cho, LML, and Bel) and with no replacement for over a week, there just didn't seem to be much of an additional option. So yeah, I thought they were probably both town.

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1. Maybe I forgot something, but the only other statement I remember about me was an off-handed ridicule of my track result/target post, which has already been justified earlier in the thread.

2. I didn't think, nor did I say that Fish was prob-scum. I thought that his role was lending towniness to a slot I considered scummy by play. Wanting to know more about the role is natural. There were other thoughts involved as well, with several missing actions from the transformers; I was worried about the game going totally mountainous, although that thought factored more into my choice not to lynch NS.

3. I considered the possibility that he had the battery NS was talking about. Of course, if he did, then why lynch NS over Zeph. It was a deadline with a choice between lynching an almost definitely town PR versus the mystery slot that needed a replacement that never seemed to come. Last I checked, Kagami and Juls both made essentially the same compromise.

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I'm around. A little disappointed that PI hasn't tried to post anything, but around.

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Weird, so I take it Juls killed night 2, and the transformation took place before the kill happened; hence the stabby flavor?

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Why did MTD not have a gun then? Also yeah, I was a gunsmith.

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Investigated fish amusingly. I was a little worried I somehow misread my role PM and vigged him.

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Oh MTD just had no gun but it wasn't in his role name. I see. And you were worried I might track you because of the thing near the end of the day. Makes sense.

No no, I was a gunsmith.

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I got transformed so much I don't know what I am anymore. :<

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I never said it, but Vezok's death was one of the reasons I thought fish and NS were both town. Didn't make sense unless the scum didn't understand the transformation roles during N1. I figured it would open a big can of WIFOM worms if I said it though.

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I got paranoid about fish later on though.

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I still don't understand how the VC conf-towned him. It just confirmed that he asked a town-looking question, which he could have easily done as scum.

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Eh, I wasn't really bothered by the handling of the question. I mean, to me it was obviously yes, because if it were no then it would be like saying there isn't a gunsmith.

But even so, I figure if two scum in a team have different kill flavors, it must be role-related. If two scum on different teams have different flavors, it's still game-relevant even the flavor doesn't interact with any other mechanics. So I think the answer has to be yes regardless.

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Yeah Gunsmith > cop. With a gunsmith you know where you stand

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Well, cops are good when there aren't godfathers or framers/tailors.

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Except you don't know when to expect them. Imo, there should be no false investigative information unless the town has some reason to expect it. Godfathers and such are only known if they flip or get RC'd.