Mini 1586: shoot yourself in the foot mafia (game over)

[Jargonaut]

VOTE: CooLDoG. No thoughts on anything that's been said? Serious votes have already been going out. Same to startfromtheheart

Octopus, why so scared of being voted this early?

[Jargonaut]

Why did you ask a question if you already knew the answer?

It was a rhetorical question?[/quote]
What was the point of asking me a rhetorical question?

Serious

votes

have already been going out.

At the time of this post there were not serious votes.

I count three: Rob13, empking, and HumanDestroyer all placed votes that seemed serious.

I don't think posts 29 and 30 have very good reasoning. Non-newb-scum would probably be less likely to do things that are "obviously" scummy like that this early.

VOTE: startfromtheheart
What do you think of the game so far?

[Jargonaut]

Care to explain?

Do you have any suspects?

[Jargonaut]

Meh, I don't think that's very inconsistent given most of your posts have been between the two.

>Implying all experienced scum are good scum

Fair enough, I guess.

Startfromtheheart looks like they're trying to glide through the early posts before stating any actual opinions.

[Jargonaut]

I don't see why Elyse would tell us she got a gun if she were scum. I agree with Wolfy on this.

I like the idea of Elyse shooting whomever town decides later in the day. Elyse, are you good with that idea?

Startfromtheheart, what do you think of the wagon yesterday?

The mafia likely do not have a night kill. This would mean they likely

do

have at least one day kill.

Are you thinking this just because of the no kill last night, or other reasons?

[Jargonaut]

Rob13, did you know that your kill wouldn't be public?

The setup spec makes sense, but I need to think about it more.

[Jargonaut]

The fact that rob13 shot startfromtheheart so early makes me think he's probably not scum. Why would scum kill startfromtheheart over Elyse?

CooLDoG, I don't ready understand your argument.

Prod dodge. Waiting for startfromtheheart to post something with content before I post something with content.

This doesn't really seem like a town attitude, especially given that he had been sitting on the octopus wagon since rvs. It seems like an excuse to coast.
VOTE: Who

[Jargonaut]

CooLDoG, why do you think Rob13 is/was trying to get Elyse lynched? That is what you are saying, right?

Why did you guys want Who to claim already? There's only two votes on him.

[Jargonaut]

What is the reason for CooLDoG scum reads? His case is bad, but that's not the same as being scummy

We need to decide who Elyse should shoot.

[Jargonaut]

Elyse, what are you thinking?

[Jargonaut]

Ok that was not what I expected to see coming back to this thread. I was thinking you would shoot HD or Who. I guess I should have tried to discuss it more.

Unless Who is her partner, I can't see why scum Elyse wouldn't have just shot him. It would have looked town of her to do so.

Elyse, could you explain what you mean by Who's post looking genuine? I just see it as null.

I'm fine with pushing on HD. He hasn't produced anything town IMO.
VOTE: Human Destroyer

[Jargonaut]

Kirbyoshi, how does the kill affect your read of Elyse? Do you have any scum reads?

[Jargonaut]

Rob, you make a fair point. It just seems like there's as much town motivation as scum motivation for her actions.

I think having two gun givers is possible, given that we've had 3 VT flips already (this is a theme game after all; something has to be weird).

P-edit: I hadn't thought of that, but that could be it too.

[Jargonaut]

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said she had as much scum motivation as town motivation for her actions. She'd do what she did as either alignment.

[Jargonaut]

Yeah Kirbyoshi's recent responses have been looking worse and worse.

I'm not satisfied by HD's recent post.

I'll try to get a good post in when I'm actually at a computer.

[Jargonaut]

Ok that was not what I expected to see coming back to this thread. I was thinking you would shoot HD or Who. I guess I should have tried to discuss it more.

Unless Who is her partner, I can't see why scum Elyse wouldn't have just shot him. It would have looked town of her to do so.

Elyse, could you explain what you mean by Who's post looking genuine? I just see it as null.

I'm fine with pushing on HD. He hasn't produced anything town IMO.
VOTE: Human Destroyer

I dislike this jump. A lot. Either it implies that at least one person in [Elyse/Jargonaut] is/are town and not paying any attention to the game and isn't reading (or attempting to read) my posts (this includes one town + one scum AND two town, for those who do not know what "at least" means), or both are scum. And I honestly doubt two scum would jump here so I'm going with the former, which is worrying in a different sort of way.

So... because we don't think your posts are town, we're either incompetent or lying?
You said nothing about why that post by Octopus looked town, and it didn't seem like you were actually trying to convince anyone to abandon the wagon. I agree with what Elyse said about how it looked more like an attempt to white knight him.
Your push on startfromtheheart doesn't really point to either alignment.

I'd like to hear from Who some more. Could they possibly be prodded?

Speaking of Who, I don't think this question got answered:

Elyse, could you explain what you mean by Who's post looking genuine? I just see it as null.

[Jargonaut]

I'm not liking Kirby's reads wall. The reasons seem contrived, and the"point system looks like it was included to make the reads seem better thought out and more legitimate than they are. Notice how the same reason, lack of content, gets a different score each time he mentions it about someone. Also notice that none of the math works out or makes sense. This feels like a lackluster scum effort to look like a townie trying hard.

@Jargo

...

This post seems to be very genuine to me. I don't think he made it up and he's most likely telling the truth about being lazy as a VT, etc. I know it might not seem that way to some people but if this was a feigned scumpost, it's pretty impressive.

Ehh, I've played games as both alignments where I found myself bored and not caring much to post. Plus, I'm pretty wary of judging posts based on their genuineness. In "Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure" (a mini we were both in), a big reason people wrongly read TSO as town near the end was due to the genuineness of his posts.

Spoiler: What people said about him

I just hope we're right. If not, well played TSO. "Let me check my Role PM" was what convinced me.

TSO, that post where you were talking about how fucking lost you felt in this game after the double Night felt genuine to me and pretty much locked in a townread.

I interpreted "didn't produce town content" as "didn't produce content" (this is also because Elyse had made a similar complaint the post before).
Going on this, and considering the fact I had made a post clearly stating I was on V/LA for July 4th weekend, either:
a) You didn't read the post (not reading)
b) You aren't good enough at scumhunting to realize that the fact that I was gone and wasn't able to produce content would (gasp) affect my production of content (incompetent or scum)

I'm not talking about you being gone for the start of Day 2. Your Day 1 contains nothing to make me think you're town. I'm not asserting that you being on V/LA over a holiday weekend is indicative of alignment.

[Jargonaut]

Intent to hammer 'n' shit

[Jargonaut]

I looked in a few of the recent games of his and didn't see it, so I figured it's probably not used frequently enough by him to accurately use for meta.

[Jargonaut]

@CooLDoG: Yes, I think if you look back a few games and see a common behavior when a person plays an alignment then it can be used. Play styles evolve over time, so if you have to look back too far back too find something there's a good chance it's no longer reliable.

[Jargonaut]

Lol grammar fail on my phone, but you get the idea.

[Jargonaut]

What does that even mean?

[Jargonaut]

I'm ready to hammer, but I'll give everyone a chance to make one more post before the day ends.

[Jargonaut]

I'm not fence sitting. I'm going to hammer.

[Jargonaut]

VOTE: Kirby

I'm ready. I assume that video is hammer time.

[Jargonaut]

Elyse, what were you trying to accomplish with that reaction test? You should give a final reads list before the mod comes on.

I agree that if both guns were given out, then town probably gave one and scum probably gave one. The fact that you both Elyse and Rob13 have guns again makes it look like it's permanent, so one of them is probably scum who gave themselves a gun.

[Jargonaut]

Actually Elyse, you don't need to answer that. Empking looks town from his reaction.

[Jargonaut]

I don't think scum Rob wouldn't have shot Elyse. We know he'd be on a team of two (or else it'd already be gg). Thus, even if empking were town, he would want to shoot Elyse, otherwise he would risk himself or his partner getting shot tomorrow.

Also, could you elaborate more on your plan? How do we get the retributive shot? Are you thinking someone else gets Elyse's gun? The simplest explanation IMO is that Elyse's gun was a permanent gift. Same with Rob if he's town.

If the guns aren't permanent and someone of each alignment gives one, why did both Elyse and Rob get guns again?

If CooLDoG is scum, Rob likely is scum with him (by Rob's own argument).

Empking and Rob are likely not scum together. In fact, empking is probably town for his reaction to being "shot."

Rob, you are thinking both guns are given out by scum? In a 1v1/2v2 situation scum would lose unless they could give themselves at least one gun. If that's the case, why give both to town?

Ok we definitely need to discuss this setup because I am confusing myself.

[Jargonaut]

I'm a VT. Popcorn HD.

@ CooLDog: What do you mean "kill one person at a time." When do kills not happen one at a time?

It seems like you are thinking that the scum gun giver wouldn't be able to give themselves/their partner a gun. Wouldn't that be way too town sided? Town would potentially have control over every kill.

@Rob: In a situation like that, wouldn't scum lose in a 2v2 situation? That seems too broken to be likely.

[Jargonaut]

Idk why scum would fakeclaim bulletproof instead of gun giver or watcher like CooLDoG suggested. He's probably telling the truth.

The scum team probably has at least one PR imo, seeing as they don't directly issue the kills. BP does make sense for scum, but enough so that it makes me wonder why scum HD would claim it.

Clarify what Rob has done to make him confirmed town. Was it just shooting Elyse?

[Jargonaut]

I really don't see why he would fake that claim as either alignment. I guess we'll find out soon enough though.

[Jargonaut]

?

[Jargonaut]

Why not just do the shots now? It sounds like a guaranteed win for us as long as CD isn't scum. You might at well just shoot who and I now then decide between CD and empking if the fact doesn't end.

[Jargonaut]

Wait how do you know that the guns were role related? How would that be balanced?

[Jargonaut]

No flip...? We got flips for the other people Rob and Elyse shot. I'd guess there must have been something attached to Who's role that hid his flip. Idk if that would make him more likely to be scum or town though. Either way there's still scum alive.

Rob did you really shoot empking?

[Jargonaut]

Idk, I can't see why scum who would claim it, but now that I think about it, town who would have wanted to claim after he knew he was shot so that we would have more info. So either who was scum or his flip was hidden due to something other than his role, in all likelihood.

[Jargonaut]

...ok so there are 3 scum, only who wasn't one of them.

Empking flipping scum is surprising. I'm going to ISO him and HD for any assosciatives.

[Jargonaut]

@Rob: At that point I had been thinking the guns were permanent. I mentioned it in that same post.

So we have 3 scum. If they gave out both guns, then they would have to give one to town and Rob getting both wouldn't make sense. If they gave out one and town gave out one, then we should expect there to be a gun giver role, which isn't the case. I doubt scum would not get to control the kills at all, do there must be more to the setup. I want to assume this game isn't bastard.

[Jargonaut]

To be named?

[Jargonaut]

Uhhh.

Glad I wasn't crazy thinking CD was totally scum. Originally though I'd figured it was Who and Empking though.

I'm fairly sure Rob would win if we ended up 1v1.
VOTE: Rob

If I understand the situation correctly, tomorrow will be a competition to see which of us is QuickDraw McGraw

[Jargonaut]

Haha grammer fail

[Jargonaut]

This setup was crazy. I think it was good luck for town that Elyse and Rob got the guns, but all the town flips lost them the game.

The fact that Elyse got the gun again was what convinced me of the setup once I thought about it enough.

[Jargonaut]

Actually I gave you the gun. He gave it to Elyse.

[Jargonaut]

I'm a 1-shot gladiator BTW. If there was a time when I should have used it feel free to tell me. I have no idea. The fact that town was all VT made using it seem too risky.

[Jargonaut]

Well CD used his janitor on him.

Speaking of PRs, who did empking neighborize? Anyone?

[Jargonaut]

Oh cool.

[Jargonaut]

Can someone tell me why HD's claim looked fake? As you saw, it was real.

[Jargonaut]

Because you miscalculated your fake-claim. Two town vigs (even if scum chooses who they are) AND a 1-shot BP town makes no sense unless scum have crazy PRs ... which wouldn't make any sense, because we have no investigative roles, no what exactly would their PRs do?

Thanks for explaining why you claimed, though, Apparently you thought being the only PR would somehow confirm you, yes?

This sounds like you thought his claim was just a straight up lie, not that it was more likely town.

[Jargonaut]

*more likely scum