Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[Squirrel Girl]

I is reading! I read slow! Tonight though, will finish tonight.

[Squirrel Girl]

Oakies, that actually went pretty easy because page 6 was a skim page, yay! I actually find it disconcerting how many sheep I managed to get on the Sal wagon. I mean...the Sal wagon. Yeah, sure, the claim was silly and probably did nothing but, really, people are going to sheep that? With some of the other stuff in play? It doesn't even make sense to me. I predict Sal town and one of Kthx/TN to be likely scum. I'll also admit to not being overly amazed by Not_Voting. I agree with HC's attack on this page towards Tysker...but with Tysker's join date it feels...a little straw graspy. I agree with Mirhawk about the gaping hole in the HC push...and I agree the HC question dodge thing was silly but...I mean, I don't think he expected that alone to get a lynch, at best it was an excuse to get on, and I don't think he needed to lie, at that stage of the game, to get on a wagon or pressure someone. Not calling HC town - but unsold by the case.

I have Mir, Boo, and Red as moderate town reads of varying levels.

Vote: Kthnxbye

Wagon...wagon...speed wagon, HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Squirrel Girl]

I guess I'll say hello to the Kitty, and hello to the people I've played with before! Mostly so I can buddy you so I'll not be lynched!

[Squirrel Girl]

I have Mir, Boo, and Red as moderate town reads of varying levels.

[Squirrel Girl]

173 isn't even a misrepresentation, it's an outright lie.

It's more of a matter of opinion, really. It is hardly unreasonable for Sal to suggest that Jake started the fight - quite frankly, this is I think the...third time, I've been or seen a replace centered around Jake and his willingness to get into knock down drag out verbal brawls in thread. I'm willing to go out on a limb and suggest he had a fair share of the blame in this situation. I'll happily agree that Sal did too - I think it's silly of him to suggest he didn't, and, quite frankly, a couple of other players happily added to the fire. But to say Sal is lying for claiming Jake "started" it? I don't even see why, if he was scum, he'd choose to lie about that - what's it even matter? Was his master plot to force a ragequit or something?

FWhy SG is hopping on is yet to be seen but Im not too worried due to her taking over Jakes slot.

I'm hopping on you due to your Sal vote. I find it scummy and opportunistic.

[Squirrel Girl]

Since when does trying to provoke someone make you scum? I find it to be a very effective scumhunting tactic if used properly.

To argue TN's side - if that's what Sal was about, now that the player in question has *been replaced* he ought to be honest about it, so in that case it would be a lie. And, also, in that case, it would be a lie I'd be willing to lynch Sal over.

Also, could you explain TN's lie? I'm missing it - do you know something I don't about his policy on liars?

I think Sal and Jake have issue with each other because they're so similar. I wish Sal would stop making everything an attack on him and pop a few peanuts and chill so I could get a read I was happy with. I'm even voting people based off their move onto him, and I'm almost tempted to vote him just to poke the bear some more.

@Sal - what is your read on Bookitty? I'd love to get a read from you hat didn't involve a player that was directly interacting/attacking you already. You feel a little too tunnely for this stage of the game. Let's save the tunnels for the second half of Day 1, or for Day 3 when they're at least funny.

I am not opposed to the move onto TN. I'm just having a hard time reading the slot. I think I would prefer some more votes on Kthnxbye though, he's been decently objectiely scummy, so I'm not sure why more people aren't willing to pressure him.

[Squirrel Girl]

which, by his own admission, was intended to start a fight with Jake

When did he say this?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Sal - what is your read on Bookitty? I'd love to get a read from you hat didn't involve a player that was directly interacting/attacking you already. You feel a little too tunnely for this stage of the game. Let's save the tunnels for the second half of Day 1, or for Day 3 when they're at least funny.

Bookitty is playing like the ordinary Bookitty I know and love. Null-Town for now, same for HC. Red is Null, as are you Mir, Tysker, and generic. Null-Scum are Kthxbai, and scum is TN.

What has HC done that is townish?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm not sure if I'll get to that tonight or not, but I will get to it soon.

I look forward to this.

[Squirrel Girl]

I do like what Squirrel is bringin' to the table to eat so far.

Pistachios.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't really have much else to add. I find the Mirhawk/HC convo slightly woggly to me since HC isn't voting Kthxbye, and Mir isn't outright calling him town, but I think that's more interesting once we get a few flips. Right now all I'd really do with it is create a paranoid plot and then scream about it. Not so helpful that.

I think I feel a bit better about the Generic slot though.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't really have much else to add. I find the Mirhawk/HC convo slightly woggly to me since HC isn't voting Kthxbye, and Mir isn't outright calling him town, but I think that's more interesting once we get a few flips. Right now all I'd really do with it is create a paranoid plot and then scream about it. Not so helpful that.

I think I feel a bit better about the Generic slot though.

Why is that weird? I can't vote for two people at once.

If you had examined the two and made a value call to vote one over the other, I would have expected more effort focused on the chosen one than the non-chosen one. Also, as even shown by this post from you, the conversation appeared to be going nowhere really. Even now, you didn't respond to his response, you didn't offer any insights. The interaction felt weird - it still does.

[Squirrel Girl]

Your posts are more likely to come from scum than town because they are extensively overexplained and overdefensive.

This is pretty much where I'm coming from also.

[Squirrel Girl]

If you say so. It doesn't prevent it from looking weird from my perspective though, and you were asking why I thought it looked weird.

[Squirrel Girl]

So half my wagon thinks I over explained and was overdefensive while the other half think I was dismissive and deflecting..... Interesting.

Isn't the dismissive thing Mirhawk's? He's not voting you. Also, I'd agree that you were dismissive, you were dismissive after being called out on being over explain-y. Both situations exist, that some find one aspect more telling than another actually isn't all that interesting to me except on a highly theory driven thought process of 'how the game is played'

I sort of felt like you were trying to be dismissive of your wagon here though.
Am I allowed to cite you for being dismissive here, or would that destroy my ability to also suggest that you have been over explain-y? If I'm only allowed to do one I'll stick to over explain-y

@SG: In vampire, you were much more active in questioning where in this game, you seem to be happy following. In vampire, I was scum and you were right on with your questioning me (which is why I wanted you dead N1 even after I fielded your questions to a point of you losing some suspicion). In this game, I'm town and you are letting others make statements and simply agreeing with them instead of asking questions yourself. Why?

Dunno. Maybe I had more time then or had a more focused line of questioning I was pursuing. I feel I've been fairly up front with my thoughts and have pursued the ones important to me.

@Everyone: Let's say it took 4 to lynch and I flipped town. Is there scum on my wagon? If yes, then who and why?

So, basically the question is "are there scum on my wagon?" This is the wagon;

Generic, Not Voting, Squirrel Girl, Bookitty

I have Boo as town and Generic as leaning town. If you flipped town off a magic 4 person lynch I would be mildly suspect of Not Voting, who also has the laziest vote on you.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Kthx - actually, thinking about it, who am I letting lead me? I think the agreement with Boo is like, literally the first and only thing I've noted wherein I just pointed and someone else and said "yeah, that!".

Like, it's literally the only thing where I've "followed" so where are you getting the 'SG is playing different and is too much of a follower' vibe from?

[Squirrel Girl]

I really want the above answered. I just ISOed myself and like my first 6 posts contain about 5 examples of me disagreeing with someone.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am interested in the interesting explanation too

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't think K is town, he's Null at best. The only reason he's getting the free defense treatment is because I think you're scum.

Do you do this often? Defend people you have null reads on because a scum read is attacking them? Because earlier you didn't seem to care so much about Boo as you did about Red, and were defending him from Red. Is Red also a scumread?

First me and Jake, then generic and Kthx, and Bookitty and Mir.

This is the mafiascum battlethread

I know, rite? Someone pick a fight with me, I'm feeling left out. I can say mean and hurtful things too!

[Squirrel Girl]

Yes this is a thing I do sometimes.

I'm not entertaining any thoughts about RC being scum at the moment no.

I'm pretty sure you meant to say something else with the second half of that sentence. I think you said Red too many times.

Do you do it as town, scum, or both?

My sentence is fine on the Reds though I suppose I didn't properly set up that the pronoun 'him' meant Kthx, which makes sense in context, but not in isolation.

Meh, the main thing I saw and that stuck in my head when writing that was the 'ditto' to Boo's comment. Your p207 and 211 are fluffy and I don't remember you fluffing anything in vampire. Also, you never followed up on your question to tn in p206. Did/does it no longer matter?

Okay, now, hold up. Because I like some of your other posting here, but you're still married to this 'playing differently' thing with me...even though right here we've already establised that at least the parts of how I'm playing differently that you have described were proven to be wrong. Your other point was that, as town, I ask questions - it would be sickeningly easy for me to go quote a mound of questions that I have spouted off thus far. So, I'm not being lead, and I'm asking lots of questions...that basically seems to leave your "playing differently" belief on me...as...when I was town I suspected you correctly, and now I'm suspecting you incorrectly?

Am I missing something here?

As far as the question to TN in 206...well, he didn't answer it directly, but he did give an answer in one of his later posts. His answer left me totally unsold, which is why I wasn't exactly leaping onto voting Salmance, because the reason was so tenuous and unlikely to my mind - I did say that at some point, which was really what that whole line of questioning was about. So if you hoped I was going to leap on Sal, no cookies, and as far as TN, I'm pretty sure that he thinks what he's saying is legit, and it's not alignment telling that I consider it a poor misrep.

Now maybe Im missing the point, but these breadcumbs he left incase he needed this claim is unnecesary. Also at L 2/1 did we really need to hear him claim early when we havent heard from Lady and the "other people who havent posted yet?" And whats the town motivation for softclaiming a PR?

Just to make sure I understand this correctly. Your case on him is that he was scum, soft setting up the ability to fakeclaim a PR, and then jumped the gun to claim a VT, and this makes him scum. Do I have that right? Because it sounds a liiiiittle nuts, and despite what you may have heard, I don't *always* go for nuts.

But, really now, is that what you're saying? And if it's not, could you clarify, because it's what I think you're saying.

[Squirrel Girl]

Apparently. I can't put my finger on it exactly but it seems different. It could be because I don't actually know your alignment this time around. I don't know and don't have enough info at this time to try and figure out if it's your posting or my alignment that is off. Best answer I can give you at this time.

But you're still applying that read to me?

Long story short, Im voting him because he claimed to early, a sign of defensiveness that he has been showing ALL DAY when 1) Jake, his shepard, left, and 2) he got wagoned.

Unvote: Kthx

I'm doing that so you really understand how much my attitude here is changing. Look, I'll agree with you on the following;

Breadcrumbing flavor as a VT is silly and means nothing and it's silly that Kthx did it and thinks it means something (like, he could be scum and have that flavor role - and nothing would be weird about that).
Claiming at L-2 is kind of silly too. I don't get the point.

However;

1. If he was planning to set up a fake PR claim...why did he not claim a PR.
2. I do not see how an early VT claim is a particularly scummy move. It's a silly town move, and it's a silly scum move, and I'm not sure why it would save his life if he was scum. Frankly, if you hadn't have been pushing him this way I'd still be all about lynching him right now.

Can you address the above please and thank you?

Also, did K always have that sig? I never noticed it till he pointed it out.

He did. But that would be a funny gambit to pull

[Squirrel Girl]

Although I also don't see any world thanks to the vindictiveness that Salamence has put forth where he is anything but town-aligned I guess.

I don't know what this means. Can you say it more plainly, please?

I think he is lacking commas.

Although I also don't see any world, thanks to the vindictiveness that Salamence has put forth, where he is anything but town-aligned I guess.

Or; "Salmance is being so vindictive, I don't see any scenario where he isn't town aligned."

[Squirrel Girl]

@Red - I would note that my issue with Salmance has little to do with a desire to lynch Kthx, I have a desire to lnch him, many others do as well. My issue is with his *stated reasoning* for why he wants the lynch. I don't think the reasoning holds water. I am also not really sold on your hangup about forcing multiple claims Day 1. I don't see how it's a bother. You and I were just in a game that was won after multiple early claims. In fact, neil was tagged and bagged due to claim. What's the worry?

@Sal - I feel like you're disconnected right now. Are you or are you not pushing for Kthx to be lynched? Because you're losing me and apparently don't even care.

@Boo - he's a clear meat, I think. Like Blind Velvet Worms. We'll wrap him in bacon anyway, so it doesn't matter.

@Lady Lambdadelta - I can has friends?

Vote: Natirasha

[Squirrel Girl]

Well...you could always still offer thoughts in non-wall form. I don't accept your post there as a reason to be as quiet and unresponsive as you've been.

[Squirrel Girl]

Like, how about you respond to what Lady Lambda has done? That's not a wall.

You could also say how you feel about the current state of the Kthx wagon?

Perhaps respond to his claim?

Maybe comment on your read on Sal?

[Squirrel Girl]

You mean his soft pr claim? I think he's full of shit until I see some results.

Actually I meant his claim. We talked about it for a bit when it happened. Are you already skimming the game, or did you just forget about that?

Sal subtly tried to buddy me in 320

Yeah, I could see that as buddying. He was trying to do that to get Kthx lynched though, so I'm thinking you need to consider your two scumspects and assess which actually looks scummy. I have serious doubts they both are.

As regards the Mirhawk/Boo debate - I'm pretty happy with what Mirhawk just posted. I actually agree that Boo was vaguely winning the battle (I forget who said that, but I am of the same mind) but I also think it was pro-town for Mirhawk to step away, as I was really starting to have my eyes glaze every time I read one of those posts.

@Mirhawk - that said, I am filled with a sadness that knows no bounds that you no have no vote in play. Let your vote out, let it run barefoot through the grass!

[Squirrel Girl]

No reason to settle for a lurker wagon at this juncture, imo.

Isn't your Not Voting case basically a lurker case? If it isn't, what's the case?

My issue with Sal's case on Kthx is it is basically this; "you are scum for setting yourself up with a fakeclaim situation, and also claiming VT at L-2" Logically that just doesn't parse well, both halves of the case I can see, they make sense as separate pieces. However, my issue is this - as a combined whole, it seems like one should shut down the other. Also, he voted him after the claim, suggesting his issue was really a rushed and early VT claim...so then it feels like the PR stuff is just padding to try to make his vote look better.

Do you like the logic of Sal's case?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Red - aw, and in my plots to avoid quote striping I forgot about your ask about NV and Haschel. Basically I'd rather lynch Kthx than either of them, mostly just based on the concept of anyone bothering to breadcrumb as a VT. Though that does make me think (I am soooo clever).

@Kthx - could you provide a link to a game where you breadcrumbed as a vanilla town, please and thank you?

[Squirrel Girl]

If he can't do that I think I'm all for just running in the Kthx train.

[Squirrel Girl]

Slightly more useful though.

What's your take on Kthx also?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm scum, maybe I'm bussing him, maybe he's a chosen mislynch - discuss!

[Squirrel Girl]

@Red - I went back to look over your wall post.

Yes, could you please quote the NV case from that wall post for me? WHat I found looks nothing like a solid case thus far, so either I'm missing something or you got really drunk and forgot to include a case.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Boo - are you also drinking nutty and tasty alcohol beverages? I have Mirhawk still as a town lean. Would you like to vote Nat maybe?

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe on Nati. I kind of think this is the way he always plays.

Maybe so - but it's incredibly anti-town if that is true, and so we still need to do something about it. Otherwise it will be Day 3 or 4 and no one will have a read or any info on him.

You think I'm conf-biasing Mirhawk? I have no meta and the overstating cases thing is something I used to do as newbscum myself.

For me it's the motive of things. I don't agree with everything he's saying, but he appears to be trying to shake at stuff and poke at things. It looks like scumhunting to me. I'll agree he whiffed your answer, but...y'know, scum or town I think he believed what he said when he said it. I don't see any reason scum would intentionally lie on that one. So, really that whole argument the worst I got out of it was that Mirhawk maybe needs to read more attentively. Yeah, that's a thing, but I don't think it's a lynch Day 1 thing. Also, for me, the way he backed out of the argument felt good. I didn't like that he left a hanging vote, but the back away felt pro-town and I feel like scum would be less likely to look like they're giving up on something.

So, basically the issues against him are - maybe sloppy reading and not being aggressive with vote.
The issues for him are - willingness to stand by beliefs, active appearing scumhunting, pro-town back off from fight.

That leaves me leaning town on him. I have a pretty decent sized list of other players I'd much rather lynch than him. Kthx, Sal, and Nat all immediately spring to mind as better lynches, and two of them are probably at least as good, if not better, info lynches. Frankly, I'd probably prefer a Generic, Haschel, or even Dex wagon over Mirhawk at this point. So it's really a non-starter for me as a wagon, especially if the selling point is 'counter wagon' and you're basiclaly trying to recruit about half of the people on the Kthx wagon, which is the wagon it would even be running counter to.


And I know about the drink, now I want that thing!

[Squirrel Girl]

I go Payday, I'm a purist sort.

I'd actually totally forgotten about NV and TN. There are a lot of players in this game making next to no impression on me. TN I have an actual scumread on, NV would be part of the Haschel/Generic/et al mushy middle for me. I'm holding off on Kthx for that VT breadcrumb thing - basically if he can show he's done that as town I'm left with not as much feeling of support for the wagon, if he can't I'll start hard pushing it again. I can agree with you that the current wagon composition is...not as happy as I'd like to be about it. But...

[Squirrel Girl]

I think I'm so excited to defend Mirhawk precisely because I have so few strong reads. I'm not giving up any slightly town lean!

[Squirrel Girl]

@Red - a lot of your case feels playstyle based. Have you played with Not Voting before now?

@Sal - I have literally just restated my reads, if you need them again let me know. Also, yes, my read on Kthx and you is in flux, and that's why I'm trying to figure it out. I will openly admit I don't think you are both scum, so, yes, in a perfect world where I could figure out which of you feels more fake I'd know exactly where to place my vote. You have correctly identified that I am unsure o fmy read there - as I have stated a few times now. I'm not sure why you're basically repeating me back to myself but with a little extra mustard on the wording.

@Haschel - What do you think you breadcrumbing a VT role has to do with Kthx doing so? Also, have you ever done it more than the once?

I am giving slight townpoints to Sal for his total flip-out on Nat while Nat was calling him town.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Nat - there was nothing to say about you, you even admitted that your vote on me was baseless. You're like a bag of oatmeal - there's not much gain in punching you.

@Red - I disagree with your disagreement, I'll reference your points by the posts you note them about;

120 - You're barely making a point here, and basically your point is 'he's doing an attack I agree with but it might have been pointless' not really a scumtell there.
247 - I agree that this is a bad case and the 'honestly' thing holds no water. But, i personally don't have a frame of reference that this is a case he would only push as scum. I think this is a playstyle based tell.
268 - You call it 'paint by numbers' I call it 'guy who scumhunts with old tells you disagree with' which of us is right? Again, this is a playstyle tell unless you know he'd normally not use it.
337 - I'm not even sure what scumtell you're associating here. An alternate view is to see this as town paranoia.

That's why I'm not really sold on your case and find it playstyle based.

@Kthx - I am still waiting for you to provide information about any other time you have breadcrumbed a VT role. A link or two would be most excellent, and would lead us on a bogus journey as well.

Vote: TN

Baaaa!

[Squirrel Girl]

I assume that means you're sheeping Boo?

Sure. More I'm sheeping the wagon in general, but I don't think it matters one way or the other.

On phone atm but wanted to point out tn is at L-1 from outa nowhere. The speed of his wagon does not sit well with me.

Well, this is a very generic and empty comment. I have two questions for you;

1. Who on the wagon do you find scummy?

2. Have you ever breadcrumbed a VT role before, and if so could you provide a link or two?

[Squirrel Girl]

I am still waiting for you to provide information about any other time you have breadcrumbed a VT role.

Can't think of anything specific and not only is me crumbing my character even though it's a VT role not even remotely alignment telling, the fact that a big stink was made of it is ridiculous. I also don't care to put ANY work into meta'ing myself. All the meta you need of me is my sig.

I feel like I need to pull on some boots for this answer.

No - you crumbing a VT role and getting heat for it is *not* ridiculous.
Why did you crumb it? Like, can you talk to me about what was going through your head when you decided to do it - what was the end goal?

[Squirrel Girl]

Sigh. Ask yourself what crumbing ANYTHING does.
It puts the crumber in a position being cleverly honest from the start if town. No worries if youre town since youre not lying about anything.
If the crumber is scum, they put themselves in a position if thier crumbed claim doesnt work, someone might find the crumb and catch them. Scum crumbing fake anything reduces the flexibily for them to lie about something later.

Crumbing flavor does none of the above.

Second reason is cuz my sig isnt just for shits and giggles. Im often thought of as scum and even though Im just VT, its me putting out there early my role. Whether you believe it later is up to you, but yall keep saying its wierd therefore scummy is stupid,

THE FACT IS IT ISNT ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE.

Everything has the potential to be alignment indicative. I will admit I have a hard time believing you decided to breadcrumb 'just because' and had no goal at all in mind when you did it.

Now, wtf SG? Out of my entire post the only thing you comment on is the rehash of a shouldbe dead topic? What are your thought on literally anything else i said?

The rest of your post was a comment about the wagon speed on TN - I don't have much of an opinion on that, and then some wagon analysis that obligates me to consider both you and TN to be town, and I have no opinion on that. If I was to presume both of you were town I actually disagree with your wagon analysis because you're so focused on the vote movers when there's no actual assurance that scum hop votes more than town. Does that respond to everything else you hoped I'd respond to? If not, ask, and I'll respond to whatever I missed.

Vote: Kthxbye

With a self vote he's either scum going for a play, in which case he's a good lynch, or he's town who thinks his wincon is getting himself dead, in which case he's also a good lyncha nd I'm sheeping him

Also, his answer about the breadcrumbs leaves me pretty flat. It feels fake.

[Squirrel Girl]

Kthx, I know your answer will probably be "I don't care" but what do you think of that claim?

[Squirrel Girl]

SG wtf?

If you had a question in that quote that this reply doesn't answer, please clarify.

@Kthx - I 'justified' calling you scummy a few pages ago when I said a reply I didn't like to my breadcrumb question would get me to vote you again. It had nothing to do with TN claiming or not claiming, really. And has less to do with sheeping your self vote logic.

[Squirrel Girl]

@SG: Why do you think kthxbye would be advocating his lynch and voting himself if he were scum? Wouldn't scum want another roleclaim out there for added accuracy?

Why would kthx be seriously advocating a self lynch if he were town? It's a wifom question. There is no benefit to town or scum in getting themselves lynched, really. If he is a VT his vote on himself (which he has quickly moved away from, I'd add) was bad play. If he was scum it was an attempt to garner sympathy and the attitude you are now expressing towards him.

I would rather ignore the self vote entirely - I think a more reasonable question is about the breadcrumbs. I think they were done to add veracity to his claim, whatever the claim may be. I do not think a VT would think it would be worthwhile to add veracity to a claim. Therefore I think he's scum. That's the whole Magillicutty of my case.

[Squirrel Girl]

Also, quite frankly, even by your own logic and his now moved vote he is now "wanting another roleclaim" so...?

[Squirrel Girl]

Kthx has explained why he's advocating a self-lynch. He wasn't complaining about your vote on him; he was complaining about you justifying it even when no justification was needed. That is a bit odd. If I tell you that you can have my hazelnut smoothie, you don't feel the need to announce to everyone around, "Hey, I'm ENTITLED to this hazelnut smoothie. It's mine by right! I'm right to take it!" You'd been admiring this hazelnut smoothie for a while, so I don't think you needed further justification.

To take your example and apply it to what happened;

SG: Hey, everyone, you see that tasty hazlenut smoothie? If Kthx's next post isn't the total score of the HMS Pinafore I'mma drink it!
Kthx: People should vote me if I burp! *burp*
SG: I am now taking the tasty hazlenut smoothie, and it is because of the HMS Pinafore thing, not the burp thing!
Kthx: Why are you overjustifying that move?

That's my take. How are you in line with him thinking I reacted weirdly. I said 'do this or get voted' he failed to do what I had asked, I voted him and restated my reason for the vote since there had been a new angle applied to votes on him and I wanted it clear that I wasn't about them.

I don't feel sorry for kthxbye. I admit, I'm vulnerable to AtEs and I have to steel myself against them, but I didn't see any AtE in his post. He was presenting logic, which I appreciate. He backed up that logic with a vote on himself. Kthxbye didn't Spock us and say, "I sacrifice myself for the good of the town, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." He presented four options and explained which one he thought was best.

A self vote is AtE or it is bad play. I will admit I see this one as AtE and you simply see it as bad play, but I think it is not odd that I think you are reacting to the incorrect version. Conversely, your responses to me suggest a sudden and pure townread on Kthx for his play. I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to draw from what he has done. You can call him town in spite of it, but don't suggest he's town because of it. That's why I clarified that my vote was not because of it. I think he stands as scummy ignoring the self-vote. I don't think he's done anything particularly townish.

[Squirrel Girl]

I thought the sticky out tongue was a clue that part was all the joke. It's pretty silly logic if you thought I was serious - and the very next line is a legit reason being presented as an addendum...to, what, an also legit reason? The legit reason was the serious comment, the other comment with the funny faces was a joke.

[Squirrel Girl]

Going back and looking, the entire rest of that post is basically dedicated to explaining why his breadcrumb action didn't make sense and was fake.

[Squirrel Girl]

Fair enough. Your underlying point is serious, though, or appeared so at first glance: he's playing scummy or he's playing anti-town, so in both cases he's a good lynch. That doesn't seem silly on day one to me. That was the point of the Nati wagon, too, wasn't it?

The Nati wagon was me pressuring him to get active while I was waiting for an answer from Kthx. I did the same thing for the TN wagon as well. They were 'sure, why not?' wagons that helped my vote serve a purpose while I was waiting for Kthx's answer.

Would you have voted him at that point if not for the self-vote?[/quote]
Yes. I had indicated as much a few times prior to him answering the breadcrumb question;

I'm holding off on Kthx for that VT breadcrumb thing - basically if he can show he's done that as town I'm left with not as much feeling of support for the wagon, if he can't I'll start hard pushing it again.

[Squirrel Girl]

I think a replace is likely, and if it's not then TN should ask for one regardless if she has that much bottled up anger at the mod.

[Squirrel Girl]

SG: You looked at the game D3X linked in which kthxbye did the exact same thing as town?

He did not do the exact same thing. In that game he sort of fakeclaimed cop...kinda, didn't breadcrumb it, but rather flat out stated it, and when pressed immediately went with a full clarification claim.

In this game he, functionally, dropped sideways flavor quotes that were available in the opening posts and presented them as "evidence" of him being VT to support a claim he was forced into.

[Squirrel Girl]

The over explainy paired with his awkward lack of desire/ability to explain the breadcrumb, paired with there being no gain for town but arguable gain for scum to do said breadcrumbing still sells me.

[Squirrel Girl]

Like, in that linked gain - he had a reason for doing what he did. He was trying to drop cop crumbs to draw a kill. What was his reason in this game? He doesn't even know. So, as town, he makes a conscious decision to breadcrmb to gak with scum, and in this game with alignment unknown...he doesn't even know why he did what he did, and certainly had no plan behind it? I don't buy that. It feels fake.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm frustrated because I really like Boo's current work, but if it's right then I think that would show me to be wrong about Kthx and I really like my work there.

Bangarang!

Vote: Not Voting

[Squirrel Girl]

Without a flip it means little but if all three are town boo kitty and SG either aren't reading the game well or their scumhunting is tactical.

Blood! Blood! Blood makes the grass grow!

[Squirrel Girl]

I no longer think kthxbye is scum.
TN's extreme tantrum makes me think he might be town. I don't have meta and usually when someone throws a fit like that, they're town and they feel like someone has been mean to them.
I think Not Voting is scum.

Them's my reads on the wagons that I was on.

I'll let the cutest little necromancer answer for herself.

My issue with TN is that the rage seemed weird and mistimed. It sounded like his issue was about the Jake situation - which...I dunno, if that was so upsetting to him it feels like he should have replaced out days ago. My paranoia wants to say it was actually rage about something dealing with his claim, and my mental theory is it had to do with the mod messing up his fakeclaim in some manner or other. But, I will admit that's paranoia talking, and I don't want to lynch him today no matter how much Sal is trying to somehow sell me that lynching the claimed Doc Day 1 is a good move.

I'm of fairly equal vibe on the Kthx/Not Voting question, and will actually go a step further in saying I don't think they're scum buddies, so a scum flip from one would clear the other for me. I'd be pretty happy to string up either of them though - I think there's a decent case on each.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am fine with the protect HC plan, probably more worthwhile than requesting it, which would be silly

But, yeah, the TN replace should be on that like white on rice. Worst case is scum have a roleblocker, and we're in about the same situation, best case he's town and does the protect, or he's scum and needs to fake the same. Sounds overall bankable.

[Squirrel Girl]

That's why I'm not really sold on your case and find it playstyle based.

Oh, don't give me this "playstyle based" nonsense, you even admit that his arguments are bad and hold "no water". If that's the case, don't you think there's the possibility these are artificial arguments he feels compelled to make? Especially given the fact they're on what was then the most likely lynch at the time?

It is certainly possible that they are bad because he's scum making false cases.
It is equally functional to ask, as I do 'is he known for not making bad cases?' because if he normally doesn't, than this is more scummy, but if he normally does than it is less scummy. Bad logic is not an inherent scumtell unless you can show that the player normally wouldn't commit a logical flaw.

[Squirrel Girl]

Mason V Doc with a day left to go.

Anyone up for a no-lynch?

What about Kthx? He has also claimed and is otherwise scummy.

Vote: Kthxbye

[Squirrel Girl]

Since when?

I thought he was town because I wanted a quicklynch?

I remain un-fond of your play regarding that moment. That said, my scum read on him has never transformed to a town read - My scum read on him *was* caused to waver by a possible scumread on you. But that is a different situation than making him town.

[Squirrel Girl]

@SquirrelGirl

: How sure are you on kthx-scum? More than 50 percent, you think?

Since 50% would be sort of null read - yeah, I'm more than 50%. Let's call it 80% or something? I dunno.

Basically I don't want to lynch the Doc nor the Mason claim, and at this stage don't really want to run up any other claims, so I think Kthx is a fine one as I don't really see him ever becoming a solid town read for anyone and I think it would benefit us to lynch someone who has had a lot of people lay out opinions on both pro and anti him being scum. Also, his activity level over the past week as attention dropped off him is pretty anti-town, so even if he is town I don't feel like I'd be losing a functional sounding block. So, worst case, we lose an inactive VT who at least half the town or so suspects to some degree and gain some wagon analysis info. Best case, we tag a lurky scum and get wagon analysis info. He's scummy enough I know I'm never going to be comfortable with him sans a cop investigate, and I can think of some better players for a cop to be checking even at this stage, so...meh.

The only other real option on the table is going for yet *another* claim.
I'm against that at this point, we have enough for scum to pay attention to, and also some interesting questions to assess with our theory Doc, so I think a flip is beneficial, and seeing who scum kill will be some fun wine to chug tomorrow.

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: d3x

Enough people are talking about it - can anyone point me at a game with scum fakeclaiming masons? I've never seen it, myself.

[Squirrel Girl]

@SG- I don't know if I've ever seen it before, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. What makes it scummy, SG? What do you think about LLD? What do you think about Mir?

I had town vibes on LLD's push on Nat, but otherwise find her slot to be a mushy and unappetizing nut with no flavor.
I have a town read on Mir. it's not super strong, but I would oppose his lynch today and with the current issues presented about him.

@CrimsonWolf - I don't actually suspect anyone about that, I just find the concern to be a bit like having a fear of a Miami zombie trying to eat you. Okay, yeah, sure, it has happened - but that doesn't mean it's a big issue, even if you do live in Miami, and I'm not even sure we live in Miami.

[Squirrel Girl]

But, yeah, I agree with you in a sense, but certainly not enough to vote him over. Presumably you have other concerns though given your first comment.

I am aware you're asking me to clarify 'concerns from my first comment' but I'm not sure what comment you're talking about. Is it LLD? I would say my concern basically begins and ends with her non-involvement. She started interesting and then just went quiet. I can't read that, so I don't like it and choose to define it as scummy to maintain sanity.

[Squirrel Girl]

No, your first comment to me. "I don't actually suspect anyone about [pushing for a mason claim]" I was fishing for you to expand on your d3x vote without directly asking.

It's really just a gut vibe. He feels like a knife in the shadows.

[Squirrel Girl]

I feel Mirhawk is trying to find scum, and his questions and actions appear to fit the mold of someone hunting scum rather than hunting easy lynches and acceptance.

I put Salmence on the town side mostly due to rage.

[Squirrel Girl]

I feel Mirhawk is trying to find scum, and his questions and actions appear to fit the mold of someone hunting scum rather than hunting easy lynches and acceptance.

Can you point out any examples of this? Post numbers or quotes will do.

What do you think about his vote on Sala?

I really have no desire to do that, but I'll pull open the iso and random skim around the time I replaced in.

Okay - Post 81 is good stuff. He's basically questioning motives in someone unvoting him. You kind of pop at him for this since you apparently think a town player would just be happy with it, but I find it a town reaction for two reasons. First, he's clearly worried about tn's motivations and logic. Second, he's more worried about that than about being unvoted - I think scum would tend to just be like 'sweet, I got unvoted!' whereas his reaction is 'that seems weid, please justify it' which strikes me as town trying to scumhunt.

There are little bits like that throughout. if you desperately need another couple from me I can do it - but I don't find it fun so would prefer not to have to bother.

I find his vote on Sala to be in line with the little grumble they've been having all game. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to see in it at this stage. It doesn't seem particularly scum motivated even if he is scum, because he probably has some better places for his vote than picking one of the most vocal players if his goal is to try to sideline his vote. I'll admit to not seeing much town logic to it either, but it's not really affecting me much which is why I'm only commenting on it because I was asked.

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: Generic

I'm kind of here.

[Squirrel Girl]

But alright, no roleblocker. Congrats.

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: Generic

I'm kind of here.

The epitome of panicvoting.

I guess so, since I'm not even the biggest wagon, I didn't even realize how horrified I was.

Vote: Generic

I'm kind of here.

Vote Mir and when he flips scum Ill follow you on generic

Promise

I kinda townvibe on Mirhawk though.

[Squirrel Girl]

Like Generic, of all people as a target? Gen's pretty town as it stands.

Have you looked at the vote counts? His slot is in a prime questionable position along with me, Mirhawk, and a bit of Sal and you.

[Squirrel Girl]

I guess so, since I'm not even the biggest wagon, I didn't even realize how horrified I was

Let me rephrase, I think you're running out of targets to POE. And of Generic/Sala/Me, Gen's the easiest. Mirhawk's a pocket mislynch or something.

I disagree with you that Generic is an easier lynch than you or Sal. But that's about the beginning and the end of that tell and none of it shows desperation from me regardless.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Squirrel Girl: Now that kthxbye has flipped town, do you think Sal is likely scum?

I think Sal has a chance to be scum, yes, I think he's probably behind Mirhawk and Generic in relative probability, but I'd probably toss him into my third seed.

This looks like a defense of kthxbye, but you continue expressing suspicion of him throughout day one despite this. Can you explain your thinking?

The case Sal was pushing on him was scummy and didn't make a lot of sense as regards Kthx's play.
The case I pushed on Kthx did make sense as scum play.

Whether or not I think a player is town or scum does not control how I see cases being made for or against them (or, rather, I try not to let it be so). I defended from the Sal case because the case was deserving of being defended from and it would help me to get a read on Sal. I don't feel it obligated me to then declare Kthx town nor to refuse to attack him in other means over other issues.

[Squirrel Girl]

He is not - read my vote post.

[Squirrel Girl]

The list above was never in any given order.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't understand your position on Mirhawk. Can you clarify please?

If he's a town read, how can he be in what you seemed to list as your top three scum?

I town read Mirhawk. Frankly, I lightly townread Generic also. However, as I said here;

Like Generic, of all people as a target? Gen's pretty town as it stands.

Have you looked at the vote counts? His slot is in a prime questionable position along with me, Mirhawk, and a bit of Sal and you.

The vote counts do not, I believe, lie. There are a number of wagons that speak to a scum likely being on them, while having a couple names pop up constantly. I choose to rule myself out, and then am left debating who of Generic/Mirhawk I have a better town read on. The answer is Mirhawk. Consequently Generic is who I am voting. That is also why, in the posts you quoted, where I am making a comment about who is scum in relative probability I mentioned Mirhawk's name. It does not mean I have him as a top scumread and nothing I said at any spot supports that other than squinting at the one post and ignoring the way I answered the question, and what the question was about.

But alright, no roleblocker. Congrats.

Are you implying this is a slip? If so, why not vote Nat? If not, I don't get the implication.

I don't get how you missed it. Here is the post Nat is reacting to;

It doesn't mean no RB, it means I can't confirm no RB. Either way, the existence (or lack of) a RB doesn't matter.

Now read Nat's reply and then my reaction again and it should all make sense.

What's this? You didn't make any arguments using VCA. What are you referring to? Or did you just expect him to read your mind?

I did make an argument using VCA in that post - I just didn't show my work. I expected him to go and do some work himself if he wished to discuss the matter with me.

[Squirrel Girl]

SG Sheeps on it with not much reasoning that I can see.

It was a vote on a lurker, but that's a cute way to try to act like it had some deeper plan beyond that, as though I needed reasoning beyond what was said.

[Squirrel Girl]

I was prepared for a push on me, was surprised it was you SG. And yet when you come back at me the part you focus on is my comments about your nats vote.

Basically means I was rigt when I said you are pushing me based only on my position on wagons.

I note that you don't defend that commentary.

Also, yes, you were right when you said I was pushing you because of your location on wagons. I already said that about myself, so it would be really weird of me to try to deny it now.

[Squirrel Girl]

Why not get Generic today and Mirhawk tomorrow?

[Squirrel Girl]

Anyways, I want you to know that this is pretty much one hundred percent your fault sal. Keep that in mind.

What's the Sal town case in your eyes?

[Squirrel Girl]

I was reading over the dead thread, and, mod, don't listen to SG. SG, unless you're hit by a truck, don't tell me life kept you from taking 2 minutes to PM Skull and say, "Sorry, have to replace out". I didn't agree with you being lynched, but there's no excuse for you to drop from the site for 5-6 days, come back shortly after you are lynched and say that it's unfair to call your play bad. You hurt us and you should own up to that, imo.

I did not deny that I lurked, nor that my lurk was bad.
I did deny that I played BP badly and lacked aggression or fear in offering my thoughts.

If he had said 'your lurk hurt town' I would have fully agreed with him - it did.
He said that my lack of aggression and fear of being lynched hurt town. I disagree with that.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Squirrel Girl: I LOVE your playstyle and I wish real life hadn't made it difficult/impossible for you to defend yourself. At least for me, you were right that it was just PoE and not your play that led up to your lynch.

I lurvs you too I thought you played brilliantly this game.

[Squirrel Girl]

Eh, if I "played good up until that point" and the issue was the four days I was not present and town lynched me - then my crime was lurk, and not what he said it was, and I never disagreed that my lurk was bad. So I think you and I agree with what we did "wrong", and I and Skull disagree. I played my role no worse than if I had been a VT though - the lynch was due to PoE and lurk, and me playing my role different would not have changed anything besides maybe claiming the Day before when I'd been around...though I have doubts that would have done much of value.

[Squirrel Girl]

Looking back, my wagon was also 50% scum.

[Squirrel Girl]

So was Generic's, but...

[Squirrel Girl]

Um, no, that's not what I said, actually. I could go into detail about the observation I made in the dead thread, but I won't because I honestly find it really funny that you're so disgruntled over something I said when you don't even know what I said.

Well, actually I'm just trying to learn what people think I did badly so I can correct in the future to avoid the same. Part of the game is playing it, and part is getting better at it, and you can't get better if you don't understand what you did wrong and I don't think it's weird of me to want to understand thoughts as regards that.
So...if you want to share, great. If not...then don't but please don't be weird about it, because I feel like you're trying to needle me now for reasons that I don't understand.

I'd prefer you to share, but that's your call. I am clearly misunderstanding what you said though if it wasn't about lack of aggression and fearlessness - as I thought that was expliitly what you had dinged me on.

[Squirrel Girl]

I stand by what I said. All I meant was that you didn't play with the aggression or the confidence of a player who had nothing to fear from the Mafia.

That's what I'm misunderstanding - if you do choose to clear it up for me.

[Squirrel Girl]

SG, look at your D1 play (In the only other game I've played with you...you know, the one that you had to die due to being so freaking obv-town) and then compare it to your play this game. THAT is what Skull is talking about. Your D1 play in that other game is how you should have played THIS game due to not being worried about being nk'ed.

Can you describe what was different? Because I thought we had this conversation already in this game and kind of came up with 'nothing much' as an answer.

I'll also note, at the end of Day 1 I kind of felt most players town read me.