Mini 1580: EpicMafiaTime [GAME OVER]

[d3x]

Hey all, I'm here. I do appologize for the unfortunate timing of the game start coupled with my V/LA. I'll be reading the thread/catching up in full over the next day or so.

[d3x]

I'm going to try and keep this as short as possible. I usually Wall pretty fierce when entering late, but 19 pages is just too damn much to drop all at once and once I start, there's no stopping. If I don't comment on anything you find particularly noteworthy, just ask.

page1- Scum Points - Boo & tn
page2- Scum Points- tn & Boo
page3- Scum Points- tn
page4- Scum Points- Boo, Generic, & tysker
page5- Scum Points- NV {especially if tn is Scum}
page6- Scum Points- NV
page7- Scum Points- tn
page8- Scum Points- tn
page10- Scum Points- tn
page11- Scum Points- tn & NV
page12- Scum Points- tn

I'm caught up to this point and falling asleep. I'll read the rest tomorrowish.

[d3x]

page15- Scum Points- tn {note- if tn flips Scum, SG needs a reread for this page}
page16- Scum Points- Boo
Page17- Scum Points- tn

And I'm fully caught up. I'd be totally willing to Hammer tn. I'd also be totally down to flashmob NV. I have Kthx as HardTown from my extensive meta with him. I'm not going into any other TownReads because there's no cause at this point.

I feel pretty good overall about the tnWagon and am not concerned with the rapid build up, though I understand Kthx's reservations. With the deadline looming and tn having been a higher target for multiple players for some time, I see the natural shift from the main Wagon of Kthx over to the deadline Wagon of tn. Not to mention, he keeps piling on the terribad posting.

My largely condensed reasons for tnScum- He has a shit ton of super weak, worthless, and scummy posts. He largely disappeared after a {questionable} Wagon gained steam. His limp onto Kthx's Wagon was deplorable. Seriously, read that post and then tell me why he Voted Kthx. Hell, Iso him and you'll see that there's not a single mention of Kthx between his UnVote and his jump to L-2. Now he's just coming around to drop halfhearted attempts at content.

[d3x]

I'm curious how a comment about his Role PM {not his Role} spun out into the sharkfest that it did. My exact thoughts were...

-Kthx enjoyed his RolePM, as did I. My RolePM was pretty funny and was well written and got me interested in watching a few episodes of EMT, which I happily report that I enjoyed the fuck out of.
-RC asked what alignment he prefers. Note, this question is not connected to Kthx's RolePM, but is instead a pretty common question {when I 1st joined the site} about his prefered alignment. His response to the question mirrored discussion we've had iRL about Roles and alignments. It also reflects issues we've both had in games since returning to the site a couple years back. We've had many mutual BitchFests about team comps and incompetent Scum partners.

I don't recall him ever Crumbing VT, but it's not out of character. A few games ago, we both independantly set up FakeCrumbs as Town and took runs at each other.

[d3x]

Here's the game in question. He was Crumbing as VT. His character is a Cop in the tv show, but not in the game. He was Crumbing his RoleName, which if I understand it correctly, is similar to what he was doing here. He got in trouble for it there, too. So I guess the answer to your question is yes... kinda.

[d3x]

re: tn's Doc Claim- Meh. I'm fine going in a different direction and seeing how it all plays out Tomorrow morning. I'm mostly inclined to believe him based on the cross confirmation that food is in fact in the game. Hopefully he replaces out and Scum have to decide what to do with him.
re: Kthx's Self Vote- Yeah, this is TownKthx. I'm as close to 100% as I can w/o a Mod clear.

In other news... Some of Mir's recent posts have given me stomache cramps. I'ma start a MirIso. I'll be online until I finish it, so if you have questions, ask away.

[d3x]

Vote:Mir

I just read over his Iso and it's pretty thin on ScumHunting. There's a surprisingly large amount of IIoA and theory debating that I didn't notice in my initial read of the game. He's jumped on the 2 main Wagons w/o really saying much of why {aside from generic platitudes about scumminess}, his drop on his case against Boo and subsequent dropping of it was pretty awkward, and he's committed the ultimate ScumTell of being the 3rd Vote on a <probable> MisLynch.

re: my earlier Scum Points List- Boo has reversed her place in the standing but NV is still there-ish. I feel less happy about FlashMobbing him because of the general responses to my idea, though.

And now... murdering dudes w/ Kthx...

[d3x]

/his case against Boo and subsequent dropping of it...

[d3x]

I don't support starting a brand-new wagon (Mirhawk) this close to deadline. I'm not especially thrilled that this push is coming just as Mirhawk has announced V/LA through the deadline and won't be here to give any defense most likely.

Meh. I must've missed the V/LA. Random curiosity... if you don't like the push, why not mention me? I'm the only one pushing, aFaICT.

I'm fine with your plan of tn{'s slot} Protecting HC. Due to recent events, I'm not going to Vote him Today. I don't see the line of thought that Sal's making. If tn's Doc and there's a RB in the mix, sure we'll Lynch him Tomorrow, but how is that any better than the same scenario presenting and him actually being the Doc with us MisLynching him Today? I see no point in banking our D1 Lynch on whether or not Scum have a RB.

I'm going to metadive Kthx to find his other 'Vote me' plays, because I seem to remember him doing it as Town in at least one other game we've played together.

With Mir off the table, I'm down for NV swinging Today. Aside from my earlier problems with him, I feel like he's being a bit too flaily over this potential ScumSlip.

[d3x]

Yeah, he recently did it as Town in Book of Shadows {the game I linked earlier}. The scenario was rather similar, IMO. He did it as Scum once, but it's not really the same animal at all. He did it as a joke in HTF. Aside from my other meta reasons, this supports TownKthx pretty solidly.

[d3x]

@Boo- It's not that I didn't see it or even had the potential to miss it, it's more of an open communication thing. If you see the late push on an absent Mir as scummy, why not directly call me scummy? Maybe you just didn't like it and didn't think it was neccessarily scummy, but that's how it read to me. It felt like a thinnly veiled diss. w/e

[d3x]

@Boo- Word.

@NV- In the scenario you laid out, how does Kthx's supposed Town Cred play into the divergence onto a Town player? Why does he have to selfVote in order to steer the Wagon that already exists? What do you think of the meta I've provided for TownKthx based on the exact actions you've used to call him Town?

[d3x]

I'm all for the {tn} Protects HC plan.

Unless something drastically changes, I'm only willing to support a NV or a Mir Lynch Today. ftr- I have no qualms with Mir Voting NV and still having both on my suspect list. It feels like a 'low hanging fruit' Bus to me.

[d3x]

d3x's push in particular is poor and doesn't jive with his earlier posts.

It doesn't jive with my earlier posts largely because my earlier posts are based on a dry read instead of interaction {which I prefer to rely on}. Both the tnWagon and the new NVWagon have a fair amount of similar Votes; the general scummy vibe Votes. Mir's Votes in both regards are rather suspect. Read his Iso with both in mind.

My position on tn has only changed in light of the Claim. My position on NV has not changed, I still think he's Scum. My read on Mir went from Null to Scum based on his interactions with both of the Wagons, specifically juxtaposed with his hunting/case building earlier with Boo.

[d3x]

I'd only support a KthxLynch over a No Lynch. I'll be around if the Wagon needs a Hammer.

[d3x]

Vote:LLD

This feels very right. I'd like to request an immediate reads list from LLD due in large part to her unfortunate absence at the end of Yesterday {I hope things are better}. Her 1st post in game promised a catch-up from the replacement, but I see no indication that she's read the game.

In other news...

Having the Mason pair known does a few other things that benefit Town, btw. If the Mason goes undeclared and Scum decide to off NV late in the game, it opens the potential to a CC w/o NV to confirm his partner. It'd be a high risk/high reward Scum play that can be entirely avoided with the full Claim.

Frankly, I don't see the down side. If NV is Scum, he has to link himself with Scum to solidify his Claim. If he's Town, we get a TownBlock started.

[d3x]

@Boo- Yes. If NV's NK'ed Tonight and we MisLynch Today, we'd be presumably at 6v3. That's decent enough odds that Scum may try to CC the hidden Mason. If we choose incorrectly, we lose a confirmed Townie and will put us at 4v3. Sure we'll have the one Scum the next Day, but the margin for error just evaporated. I'd rather have the odds stacked in our favor. If the 2nd Mason Claims Today, we have a 2man TownBlock. Scum is forced to pick off one of them and that may just protect any other PRs we have {in the event that we have any more PRs}.

@Sal- I'm not ScumReading Boo. I had some concerns early on, but late game Yesterday cleared them right up. Right now, I'm ScumReading LLD & Mir. I'm not 100% convinced about NV, so I'd like to shore that read up with the 2nd Mason Claim.

[d3x]

@SG- I don't know if I've ever seen it before, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. What makes it scummy, SG? What do you think about LLD? What do you think about Mir?

@Mir- In light of your flip over to obvTownSal, I just reread your Vote on LLD. What exactly did you like about Nati's Vote on LLD? You said you 'like <her> line on LL', but Nati actually didn't say a single thing about her. What specifically makes your Vote on Sal anything but weaksauce scummy OMGUS? If you get the opportunity, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on what I said about you Yesterday {since you apparently weren't here }.

[d3x]

So what is the assumption? Mirhawk is bussing?

Exactly this. It feels to me like an easy Bus. He gets the points for being there early in case the Wagon goes through. If it doesn't, when she flips Scum, he can point here for TownPoints.

all three wagons yesterday are fair game. The scum would've been satisfied with any of them going through. So, honestly, VCA won't help us much at this juncture, I don't think.

I'm not so sure. I think if the 3 Wagons are evaluated {I may have time later}, the frequent fliers may tell us something. With all 3 being Town {assuming NV's telling the truth}, there almost

has

to be overlap with Scum Votes.

Time to drop some knowledge... and some bombs.

Nat is almost 100% Town. The ScumTeam almost 100% don't have a RoleBlocker. LLD submitted the Kill last Night, so Nati's opening Vote coupled with Mir's weaksauce Vote looks especially like a Bus. I think one of the detractors from the early LLD push is the 3rd Scum. It could be SG for the chainsaw against me, but I'm not sold, yet. That being said, There's the outside possibility of RC being the 3rd, but I doubt it. His opinions feels legit, but he's a damn good player and I have no doubt he could fake it. If Mir is in fact the 2nd Scum, SG is totes his partner. Read her posts Today if Mir flips Red.

[d3x]

With the info above, I think it's especially important that NV's buddy comes clean. This will give us the most info Today with which to plan out the next few Days.

[d3x]

Oh, and re: Mir's sheep on Nati-

Early Votes w/o reasoning in the opening posts of D2 are sometimes PR driven. Nati coming in as such w/o Claiming, may be an excellent reason for Mir to jump 1st. When it doesn't look like Nati has any special knowledge, he jumps ship. It makes perfect Bussing sense. Look at Nati's explanation for the Vote and Mir's immediate reaction.

[d3x]

More later tonight, but briefly...

Nati is almost 100% cleared because I don't see her coming in here and opening with an unspecified Vote on her Scummate who just submitted the NK. It defies logic. LLD wasn't under any outward suspicion that I recall and it's unbelievably doubtful that Nati would forcably put her on Town's radar.

[d3x]

@Sal- I'm sure you're right, but I'd rather get the cross confirmation from the Masons.

[d3x]

UnVote

That's L-2 and we're still waiting on people. LLD is 100% the Lynch for the Day, but seriously dudes...

[d3x]

We can work a bit of the old PoE around here. We have 2 Scum after LLD is taken care of Today, but I'll be dead as well {10/2}. NV and HC {pending confirmation} are 100% Town, so they'll be NKs the following 2 Nights. I'd also recommend Nati for the solid Town Block. I feel pretty strongly about BooTown & SalTown. That leaves the Lynch Pool at Mir>SG>Generic>RC {in that order, imo}. You will have a pretty healthy margin of error, if it comes down to it.

It's clearly not fool proof and I'm just floating this as one idea, but I think it's a decent one. There still needs to be more from about 1/2 the players {once the US holiday weekend is over}; Mason confirmation being a super high priority.

[d3x]

That's completely valid, Generic. I feel much more strongly about MirScum than I do SGScum, but I think those are the 2 highest probabilities. If you read SG's stances {

especially

Today} in regards to Mir and LLD, you'll see the connections I am seeing. I feel more strongly on BooTown due to late play Yesterday {read the 'Greasy' modifier discussion with HC} than I do about Sal, but I have him as a pretty strong Read regardless. If the MafiaGods are smiling upon us, we won't need to delve down that PoE list farther than SG.

There's a fair amount of play in the List based upon connections once we have a few nonLLD flips. I wish LLD were more prolific so we could be sorting out her connections, but we don't have that luxury.

Then again, if NV comes in and says his Mason partner is magically someone else, everything changes {aside from LLDScum, ofc}. That's ultimately why we're waiting.

[d3x]

Word.

Does anyone else have any other business for Today? I don't care if LLD doesn't check in before the Lynch. She's 100% Scum and she's too wily to really give us anything useful in terms of Reads. Mir not providing any contend in regards to his early D2 Vote is all but an admission of guilt, as far as I'm concerned.

For the record, I'm not a Tracker; I'm a Watcher. No one else visited the Doc Last Night and that's how I know she's not some other random PR.

[d3x]

Let's do this.

I love you guys and I have utmost faith in you to pull out the W. It's been fun

Vote:LLD

[d3x]

Sorry guys, I'm super sick. Posting may be light for a few days.

I watched myself. I got nothing. I checked with the Mod after the fact and I wouldn't see myself targeting me under optimal conditions, so that gives us nothing.

I see no reason to deviate from the plan.

vote:Mir

L-3

[d3x]

It doesn't mean no RB, it means I can't confirm no RB. Either way, the existence (or lack of) a RB doesn't matter.

[d3x]

I Watched myself largely for a lark. I figured that there wasn't a RB b/c how N1 played out {why not Block the Doc and Kill HC so we MisLynch the Doc D2}, so I'd be smoked N2. I thought it'd be funny if the Mod told me I died by giving me my results. Then when I didn't die and didn't see anyone target me, I thought I may be able to outright confirm the existance of a RB because I should've seen me target myself. I confered with the Mod and he said that I'd never see me target myself, so it gave me nothing. There are other reasons I'd want to Watch myself as a Watcher {finding nonRB Scum PRs, etc}, but that's really delving into a theory discussion and no longer has relevance here.

re: Mir/LLD's interactions-

I just pulled a triple Iso {tysker, Mir, & LLD} and the few tysker posts are not favorable to MirTown. He tries to connect tn to Mir with the softdefense claims {presumably knowing that Mir will at some point flip Scum} and lobs a softball question to Mir that's been covered numerous times.

LLD comes in and Mir feels it neccessary to post this in his 4 player summary. This is the only time I could find him as mentioning either LLD or tsyker until the Vote D2. I've already given my thoughts on why that looks like an 'out of the gate' Bus.

By they way, he still hasn't answered what part of your 'line' he liked about LLD.

I jsut don't see enough in her posts to legitimately draw a MirTown connection. She wasn't trying to derail any Wagons from Town onto Mir, she was jsut pointing w/o any real substance. I can easily see that as just distancing.

[d3x]

I can selfWatch and my PM explicitly states that I can, but I won't see myself targeting myself. For example, if tn had Protected me N1 and I had Watched myself N1, my results would've only listed tn, not tn and d3x.

[d3x]

Based on how my results PM was phrased, there'd be no difference.

[d3x]

I didn't know that there'd be no difference until the Day opened and I asked the Mod, becuase I didn't think about it until I got the results PM.

[d3x]

I Watched myself largely for a lark.

I thought it'd be funny if the Mod told me I died by giving me my results.

[d3x]

You want to swat my knuckles with a ruler post game, that's fine. Otherwise point out how it's Scum motivated. Wouldn't Scum's best play be to either say they were RB'ed or say they targeted the wrong Mason?

[d3x]

Lol, if you're not using this conversation to ScumHunt, then i don't understand the relevance. NV opened the discussion with the possibility that I'm Scum and you continued it... the logic follows that you're entertaining the possibility of d3xScum.

---------------------------------------------

I'm not sure that I'm willing to move my Vote from Mir Today. I don't like that he hasn't answered anything in regards to the early D2 comment about Nati's reasonings for the LLD Vote and then his flop to Sal. I'm not swayed by Nati's stance on him.

[d3x]

I am freaking gobsmacked by this game.

1- Epic flavor {as it should be in an EpicMealTime theme} and great Mod'ing, Skull. Thank you!
2- Epic gambit Nati. Hot shit, that was prostyle.
3- Epic Scumfail. I'm sorry guys, but I have no idea how this all fell apart for you. Sal's outting Generic left me dumbfounded, staring at the monitor in disbelief. This is why you never drop alignment until the Mod's posted the deathscene and the game's closed.

Scum played a hell of an early game, but damn...

Maybe this will be revealed in the Scum QT, but I have some questions re: the actions taken {esp N1}. You guys had a Strongarm Kill and a RB, so why Kill the Doc? Why not Strongarm HC, Block whomever, and leave the Doc to be strung up D2? Or RB the Doc and Kill HC? He basically outted himself as a PR in the waning pages of D1, so I don't get it at all.

[d3x]

Oh, and it was a pleasure playing with everyone.

GG all.

[d3x]

SG- For me, I think that your D1 play was much more in line with the TownSG I've seen multiple times elsewhere. There were some suspect things that {in hindsight} were faulty 'guilty by association' things with me. I found someone scummy and your interactions with them felt hollow/posturing. This post in particular caused me issues. Note, at that time I had the Investigation on LLD, but had yet to reveal it. After I started getting a strange feeling about some of said interactions, you slipped away. That only reinforced the unease I felt and heightened my ScumRead on you. By the time you became a higher priority, we were in the PoE phase, which I feel bad about. I floated it as an idea to progress, but I think it was far from the optimal way to go. {In hindsight, this was pretty solid posting }

re- Everything else: There's too much drama for my mama in here. I think there were big mistakes made from both sides of the discussion. While I personally don't think I would've bowed out like Generic did, I see no shame in it. I think there were enough concrete points that could've been made to solidify the same end result. I think the longer the Day played out, the stronger a chance RC would've chosen correctly when it came down to it. There were multiple points easily as damning as the one Boo brought up {the lack of a Hammer on RC} and while I see Generic as a good player, I don't see coming back from any of them.

Also- Thanks for the nods, RC and Boo. I enjoyed playing with you both, as well! I think my play here was very subpar, aside from the clutch {read-

no brainer

} Watch N1. I appreciate it, though. It's always good times playing with RC and I look forward to playing with you again, Boo.