Genesis Mafia - Game Over!

[Plum]

V/LA this week until further notice. In moving process, currently confined to mobile. Hence stilted sentences. Extra words need added utility to be worth pecking out.

VOTE: Kinetic. Read situation sane way. Also , emotes. Emotes fit into that whole picture there.

ITT Vi shows off Biblical knowledge, happens to write my given name.

[Plum]

@Juls - Yes, I did read Kinetic's post in a similar way to the way Salamance did (correct typo 'sane' to 'same', of course, as you did). It's a kinda blandly humorous thing to say about [nominal ultimate Town goal] sold with an emote. In the very early game I did very naturally interpret that as, basically 'trying to sell the notion that speaker drew Town', which at this stage of the game reads scummish to me (more motivation to start off with trying to do that as scum than as Town). If you mean Salamance's more involved bits about Kinetic hypothetically 'being Town a lot' or 'being a super scumhunter', then no, those weren't part of my instinctive reasoning/interpretation, nor are they core to the general argument, as far as I can see it. I'm also not sure why I'd supposedly feel the need to dissemble about this for the purpose of [piggybacking Salamanca's super early vote???].

EBWOP: Actually I liked Lady Lambda's vote on SK a bit, maybe slightly more now?

[Plum]

The first a bit for what I assumed the reasoning was (related to you engaging only in joke territory) I liked, though on the other hand not hard to pick up on/vote for as scum, so not too indicative. Seemed better/more productive when your response was in joke territory, less so now because presumably player relationships and stuff, which gives context that makes it all kinda null (also that being more likely context for LLD's vote to start with than what my best guess was initially &c.).

[Plum]

Given the overall interpersonal dynamic now apparent? Certainly not. Before that was clear to me, at the time I originally mentioned it? Not per se, but given my assumption at the time that the vote had to do with you only responding to joke elements in the thread, that your next response in the thread at all was on a joke level was what I noted.

[Plum]

RedCoyote - Maybe? I don't really care at the moment for myself. It's only overexplaining if it's too much. For me it isn't; for other people, maybe?

[Plum]

Quaroath - I mentioned I'm stuck on mobile for the moment and that I know it's probably affecting my syntax somewhat.

[Plum]

Hell is moving; moving is hell. Have internet thanks to infinitely patient husband. Back tomorrow.

[Plum]

The state of the game as a whole is mediocre at best, actually. I'll be doing my best to do my part.

Given the overall interpersonal dynamic now apparent? Certainly not. Before that was clear to me, at the time I originally mentioned it? Not per se, but given my assumption at the time that the vote had to do with you only responding to joke elements in the thread, that your next response in the thread at all was on a joke level was what I noted.

What's so noteworthy about me continuing to be jokey though? Wouldn't it have been more noteworthy had I dropped my jovial attitude?

If there's a potential problem related to you not engaging with the game on a level outside of joking, and you continue to do so, the issue appears to grow. Now, is that scummy/alignment related even if so? Probably not enough context for me to have a solid idea at this point, but at best it's an issue of a null player playing in a way that is opaque, in response to what I thought might have been a vote related to deliberate opacity.

In other news, Im glad to see its an acceptable reason for you, but why are you leaving your vote on Vi (rvs vote) rather than vote Kinetic or Plum if you believe in Jul's reasoning?

The short answer is that I want more interaction to happen before moving my vote anywhere.

This was and is dumb because sitting around waiting for interaction just contributes to a stagnant game. But of course you're not the only one. Kinetic excuses himself from doing anything on a claimed basis of not being a good Day 1 player. I think the excuses are all pretty worthless.

Sal, I really don't like the content (or lack thereof) for your posts.... 29 has you making excuses for a pretty useless post. I doubt that you'd get modkilled just for saying it was a serious vote that demands pressure. That's just a weak excuse. Mind you I have zero clue about your meta, but it's hard to imagine saying a vote is serious as being modkillable.

So confused. So many other more useless posts here. Taking the Salamance explanation way more seriously than it was intended (???). Anyway, Quaroath, why didn't you vote Salamance in post 65? The whole post feels a little weird to me, to be honest. It's worded like a case, really, inasmuch as it's dissecting multiple posts from Salamance to demonstrate scumminess, with questions more rhetorical than inquisitive. But it tries to avoid

being

a case - no vote on Salamance, no strong suggestion that the anomalies discussed are scummy per se . . . it's odd. It's definitely content in a bulk seen little to that point in the game, but to what end? Also, while I'm here:

I don't want to vote rc right now.

Who DO you want to vote? It seems like you don't want to participate at all.

Weird to ask someone who's still on his RVS vote this while you're still voting your RVS vote and no instances of you using the term "scum" yourself in your whole ISO. Like, yes, Vezok has contributed less content, I guess, but . . . not really like this.

Plum: [justifies piggybacking, would also piggyback LLD]

I understand misreading this, but I never really considered following Lady Lambda's vote. Thinking something is a good vote, especially that early, is at least as much a reflection of 'I appreciate how this voter seems to be thinking' as 'this is a vote on someone I would like to vote'.

Hell is moving; moving is hell. Have internet thanks to infinitely patient husband. Back tomorrow.

Now this is definitely a joke, LLD! Plum doesn't have a husband. She was like 15 last time she was on here.

What happened to Pom, Plum? Is she doing alright?

Despite me apparently still being a young teenager in your mind, my younger sister has just completed her first year of college studies in engineering and I'm super proud.

This all said, and despite being annoyed when I initially read some of his earlier posts (like sort of thinking his question to me about whether I personally felt I was overexplaining stuff was fairly pointless), I'm currently okay on RC for the moment.

Kinetic, is anyone scummy at all to you? What would be the point of discouraging a wagon of four players in this gamestate anyway?

I made a list for myself of the players who had definitely done stuff, those who had only technically done stuff, and those who had pretty much definitely not done anything. It was pretty dispiriting.

[Plum]

Vi

- You know what, I was going to say that I could to some degree comprehend where you're coming from on me. Certainly the fact that I didn't edit out my frustrations about the gamestate as I typed that post, in context, being misread, that sort of thing I get (and have gotten before if memory serves). But actually more than half of the things you quoted I'm not seeing, unless it's just to underscore an assessment from you that *I'm* being useless, in which case &c. Frankly, to some extent I'm just glad that you're doing something now, as opposed to not doing something (and the larger, more momentum-filled wagon is also a good thing for the game notwithstanding the fact that all things being equal I didn't particularly want to be the one wagoned). I've been feeling the same way, reading the game, as ABR has, and I'm with Salamance on the difference between ABR and Kinetic and I think the idea that they're different because Kinetic suggests he'll reread a five-page game on the weekend to try to reengage is silly at best. If anything, I'm currently inclined to see it the other way around.

(For the record, I didn't find ABR's stuff particularly creepy, but the long involved defenses by him of it not being creepy were . . . weird at best)

Anyway, one thing ABR is in the right direction about about is Jazzmyn. I'm fully convinced that Jazz has and does find ABR legitimately creepy and I don't think that her framing it that way is itself a tactic to spread *chaos*. But inasmuch as her latest post is all about the presumably not alignment-related creepiness from ABR. It would be one thing if Jazzmyn had a couple of lines about it and moved on, but that was basically the entire content of her post, and it got to the point that she asked him to "contribute meaningfully to the game" where the extent of her own content is: 1)asking Salamance to elaborate his RC (meta)read and 2) asking Kinetic why he worried about the four-vote wagon on RC being too many votes for RC's level of scumminess. To that degree of depth of inquiry, really.

[Plum]

Salamance, why do you think there's scum on my wagon?

[Plum]

To be fair, all three had expressed some level of suspicion of me/willingness to vote me before Vi's vote. It seems more like Vi's vote allowed things to slide into place.

[Plum]

You're making things up as you go, you have no credibility.

If you have to tell someone else that they have no credibility . . .

RC - First thing about my first few posts is that I was on mobile (and sometimes sleep deprived/addled by the stress of moving). I apologize for my fucked syntax. I also think I'd ascribe the "overly proper" tone of the first post you mention to that, but take it how you will. Not sure I really see that I'm "talking to Juls as though she's Town" - I do question why she thinks I'd need to dissemble about whether I had the same thought process as Sala in order to justify following a lone, early vote. Anyway. I can at least translate a little bit.

The first a bit for what I assumed the reasoning was (related to you engaging only in joke territory) I liked, though on the other hand not hard to pick up on/vote for as scum, so not too indicative. Seemed better/more productive when your response was in joke territory, less so now because presumably player relationships and stuff, which gives context that makes it all kinda null (also that being more likely context for LLD's vote to start with than what my best guess was initially &c.).

Spoiler: Let's not make this post too wally

1. I initially liked LLD's vote for what I assumed was the reasoning behind it (hence why I later said it was for what it suggested about LLD as much as about reflecting scumminess of SK). I assumed that it was related to SK only engaging on the level of joking around, and that that was a good point. However, I did consider that this was not really something that I thought scum couldn't pick up on in that way and thence choose as a vote, so it didn't hold *that* much weight with me. Regardless, it seemed like good thinking.

2. It seemed like a better or more productive vote given that SK's response was to continue engaging only on the joking level. This was something that came up in preview while I typed that post, which may have contributed to me using a question mark there.

3. However, LLD's response afterwards suggested to me that the whole vote and response might have been related to their relationship/in-jokes they shared - that is, largely influenced by stuff that wasn't inherent to the game. In that context, the whole thing shifted towards null.

4. So at that time I believed I was wrong about my initial assumptions about the rationale for the vote in any case.

I appreciate Vi's Post 204, so at least I currently have a read there (Town lean).

I'm basically very pleased that Kinetic wagon became an actual thing, naturally. But I think the timing of Salamance's vote is bizarre. Sure, he votes after the Vi and RC shift to that wagon. But he posts after that shift without shifting his vote, and

then

shifts after Kinetic says he's dealing with stuff out of game and may need to request replacement? I can't see how that sort of thing prompts a vote that wouldn't otherwise be there unless the voter assumes that Kinetic is mentioning such things in bad faith. That's what's weird. Perhaps moreso than voting with his scumread RC . . . after attacking RC for voting me with his scumread Vi. That's also weird, really. Salamance, what gives?

[Plum]

Okay look calling the scumteam is a thing that doesn't exist at this stage in the game, have a nice day.

Also what the actual fuck.

I mean, your theory is that RC is not only happily bussing Kinetic when he could probably have stayed on me or voted you or Juls and have Vi follow him there, but that he actively

asked you

why you hadn't mentioned his scumbuddy Kinetic once.

[Plum]

*popcorn*

[Plum]

I *am* the food shtick, and really, I was just there to make the corny joke you were looking for, Quaroath. Besides, this Jazzmyn stuff is too delicious to pass up . . .

Happy scumday, Vi!

[Plum]

If you end up seeing yourself as the only one helpful to the Town - and you are the only one who *does* see yourself as helpful to Town - well.

[Plum]

If you end up seeing yourself as the only one helpful to the Town - and you are the only one who *does* see yourself as helpful to Town - well.

Where on earth did you get that from?

Regards,
Jazz

Okay, so who's helpful to Town in this game besides you?

Anyone seeing Jazz as helpful to Town in this game is invites to raise a hand.

[Plum]

EBWOP: *invited

[Plum]

I don't think it matters. You're welcome to think so, though.

[Plum]

Okay.

[Plum]

I'm sorry your parents didn't teach you some manners. You crossed the line. I made a joke about a school dance being an awkward time, Plum said it wasn't creepy, and you, Jazz and Vi have come out of the woodwork with your SJW bullshit. Rid this website of your antics please. You have no idea who I am.

Okay, other people have the right to find it creepy. I just thought it was relevant that I didn't find it particularly creepy myself, that's the only reason I mentioned it in passing. That said, if everyone could lay it to rest (both on defense and offense), that would be really great.

[Plum]

LLD - You're right, I ought to apologize. Jazz, I was not being nice, nor was I being productive, and I'm sorry. I've been on the receiving end of stuff maybe a little like this as Town in a recent game, and first of all, it sucked for me at the time, and second of all, if the interactions between me and the player suspecting me at that time had continued, it would have been a massive detriment to the Town.

If I were to clarify where I was going, it was along the lines of what Vi was saying earlier: You have a lot of scumreads, and are very quick to dismiss people as scum or somewhere in {scum or useless Town}, which makes those statements pretty low value, especially coupled with your relative dearth of Townreads. That contributes to people seeing you as not helpful Town (or scum?). But I do agree with Vi and LLD. Saying so may not be worth much now (or it might), but there's a deep, stubborn consistency going on with Jazz that is just fundamentally not manipulative. And for sheer transparency I thought Quaroath's recent stuff was in line with him being Town as well. And Vezok's certainly scummy. So.

Salamance, I'm not convinced of any alignment relationship between Zik and RC (though I guess it would be weird if they were scum together; they'd have bigger fish to fry here, you'd think). But anyway.

Master Zik

- any reads on anyone besides bloody RC?

[Plum]

I read your ISO. I'm looking for something new/relevant.

[Plum]

I read your ISO. I'm looking for something new/relevant.

Then you had better be more clear in what you want from me, because I believe that I have been very transparent with my reads.

How do you read the Jazzmyn wagon (participants, development)? How do you read the Vezok wagon (again: participants, development)?

[Plum]

Wait, so what the hell happens when you draw scum?

Any reason not to go to L-1 here?

[Plum]

Zakk -

[Plum]

Well that was a post that I literally just started and then my laptop decided to post. Give me a few minutes and yeah.

[Plum]

Zakk - A couple of things.

First of all, I totally ask 'what gives' irrespective of my read on a player. It's basically 'explain yourself' and it's not something I wouldn't say to someone I thought could be scum, so, uh.

My point about my SK read not being so useful without more context was that in the context of the early game, more players than him were sticking to the joking level/not directly engaging in the game. Not all of them were really going to be scum, realistically (in fact, depending on how you sort it out, there were probably literally too many for them to all be scum). But a null player playing in a way that is opaque and may be deliberately so is an issue to be aware of going forward. Frankly SK hasn't gotten much better and I'm waiting with ~baited breath~ for what he has to say.

My questions to Salamance about the people on my wagon were to engage and gauge him. He made a broad statement 'There's scum on the Plum wagon. Take your pick'. I wanted him to talk so I could figure out if it was sort of lazy BS or not, and make him explain who might be scummy and why. Frankly speaking I did feel fine about RC and Vi at that time; Juls somewhat less so and Vezok even less so. I wanted to see Salamance's reasoning. And given his answer I wanted to know why he thought the sheeping was scummy from people who had already expressed suspicion of me. I wasn't defending them per se, but I was pointing out that the sheeping accusation needed to be read in the context of those suspicions that had already been expressed before Vi's vote and the subsequent wagon. In the end, Salamance's take on things was pretty meh, but he's still Townish.

As for Zik, I wanted stuff that wasn't ramming down the tunnel of arguing point-by-point with RC and not engaging with the more immediate game developments (or more than just arguing over whether it was scummy of Vi to suggest what a scum pespective of Jazzmyn might look like). Frankly, his response - which he posted after your big post - was pretty good. I disagree with his conclusions, but I'm feeling fine about him now. But I needed to see him respond in some way to the Jazz and Vezok wagons in order to actually, you know, read him.

I'm trying to think about how much the Zakk stuff changes my read on the slot.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vezokpiraka

almost feels like a cosplay celebrity not-quite-flirting with her fan following

I just see Lady Lambda as this all the time. In the best possible way.

[Plum]

VOTE: SleepyKrew

like this is even some sort of question

[Plum]

Yeah, we should totally let the guy who did nothing but quickhammer Day 1 and of whom RC appeared doubtful go on his merry way without even a smidgen of pressure. If this is low-hanging fruit, I'm willing to pluck, sue me.

[Plum]

I'm sorry, what part of 'did nothing besides coming in to hammer' is hard to understand? I apologize, I guess it technically wasn't a quickhammer, but whatever. Vezok wasn't a bad wagon or a bad lynch. There were plenty of ways to be on that wagon and it not be a problem. But SK's basically contextless Vezok hammer was emblematic of the main problem that is

SK doing fuck-all

and playing to be deliberately opaque at best. Sitting around calling SK a lettuce or begging SK in all caps to do something isn't magically going to make SK do anything productive and/or readable.

[Plum]

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Point is, it's not that I think the Vezok lynch was super bad. I think that SK overall and in context his hammer vote on the Vezok wagon are scummy.

[Plum]

For heavens' sake. I think SK is scummy. Did you literally miss the part where I said outright 'SK is scummy'? I am disinclined to disregard his opaqueness and lack of contribution. If he's playing this way and he's Town - if I'm wrong - at the very least I can hope that voting him will make him more inclined to post things that are productive and help me and others get a better read on him. I can't imagine how you could possibly not understand this, especially given your thoughts on SK upon replacing in:

Sleepycrew

– more fluff than substance. 136 is a sad excuse to vote, not to mention I disagree with it. 238 is the funniest post of the game so far. Hands down. probably wouldn't be this brazen about being completely useless if he were scum, unless this is his meta in which case that observation is useless. not enough stances to really get a good read. that alone is scummy. would lynch simply for willing uselessness alone. replace out if you’re not going to play.

You're telling me he's gotten so much better in the intervening period that you don't understand how I can believe that SK's opacity - his lack of stances and other useful stuff - is scummy?

And no, this isn't 'my idea of giving you a single reason'. I'm not interested in playing the game of trying to guess what in my play you would think or say you think was a Towntell because I told you that I thought it was a Towntell, certainly not with your current attitude towards me. That sounds ridiculously unproductive. I was trying to clarify my position on SK re the Vezok vote, and frankly more interested in explaining to ABR than you.

[Plum]

New school program, commute is more horrible than anticipated, still trying to make apartment livable, will try to have real post tomorrow. In all honesty I'd be on the borderline of apologizing profusely and replacing out because of my unanticipated time/stress levels but we've already had a few just in the last few pages so I'll redouble my efforts.

[Plum]

Not currently at L-1 by my count so not claiming in this post.

I've been getting all demoralized and whatever, and it was just going in this nasty negative spiral in this game because Vi's right inasmuch as my play has been subpar for my own standards, and in that light I can understand Vi reading it as scummy. And then I feel bad about playing badly and all that and that of course doesn't help matters at all. But. I know I need to do something to break out of this, and I've managed to get kinda pumped up for doing my best here, so here goes, going to start with Day 2 and go back and refer to ISOs as relevant.

Spoiler: zakk

I can't tell what fraction of my frustration with him is directly to do with his read and push on me, let's get that out of the way. But I really want to ask him again: What distinguishes my vote and reasoning on SK today vs. what you expressed about him in his catchup post? He even later says that SK is "certainly acting like [scum]".

Other things about Zakk, have been noted by others: Is

super enthusiastic

about lynching me, still has Vi as his other top scumread, completely uninterested in the way those reads interact because we're "independently scummy" - except for some of his accusations back in his catchup post re Vi giving me "stuff to latch onto" so it's just kind of mindboggling that someone so gung-ho on a wagon would literally not notice or care that his other big scumread is the one who is

just as super gung-ho

about the lynch. Not that there's only one plausible conclusion or line of thought in this case, but Zakk not even asking the question? I mean, I know he finds apparent self-awareness scummy, but it's ridiculous. However, he just might be, like, unaware in general because he turns around and says that Vi is "being rather inquisitive for not having any strong opinions of your own that you are pushing" which, like, have you seen the wagon you're currently voting and pushing passionately? Hello?

Part of me can't help feeling that some of his weird inconsistencies are . . . not Town, but, like, something scum would be more likely to perceive and avoid in their own play, like why continue despite everything to really read both me and Vi strongly as scum without recognizing, let alone addressing, the elephant in the room there? Especially knowing he can recognize and call out things that look like similar omissions of judgement in other players? But I don't know if that's really a valuable train of thought for seeing if a Townread is justified.

Spoiler: Salamance

Salamance, you've been Townreading and/or defending me for much of the game, often calling out, even voting a player for voting me. So what gives? Let's see. Nope, ISO gives not much in the way of clues.

Relevant Salamance trajectory re Plum:

Soft support of a vote on Plum:

That said, I see Jul's reasoning with Plum, but I think the wagons should point towards kinetic

Keeping things clear about why he

isn't

voting Plum (???):

Im not voting Plum as of now, not because I have a townread, but because I dont have a scumread on him/her.

Reach a point that looks like there's an assumption that Plum is Town, based on wagon speed and stuff (???):

There is some scum on Plum wagon. Take your pick.

Townreading: Juls, LLD, Plum, SK?

Im mainly voting Vi because I dont like the plum vote, and I cant get a read on her, which is odd because usually I would expect townvibes immediately.

On the other hand, after voting and posting in support of the SK wagon that only had Plum on it::

VOTE: plum

In Vi we sheep.

For now at least. I haven't had the time to really dig back like I should.

If Vi is town, which Im not sold on, then this is a good vote too.

Ehhh. Kinda weird overall, but the most salient reading of Salamance wrt me is, in my view, that Salamance read the early wagon on me as scummy early and that read lodged in his head and has sort of overinformed his reads in stuff relating to me since then; he lacks any substantive explication of the read on me and not much attempt at reevaluation of the initial read on the earliest Plum wagon. It doesn't seem calculated despite the fact that a longterm Townread on me supporting stances against those who push me could have scum utility; if it were calculated I'd expect to see it used a little more explicitly and aggressively. I could be wrong, naturally, but I'm feeling fine on Salamance here.

Spoiler: Vi

I reread and . . . I mean, yeah, sure, I thought ABR's reads and reasoning were basically bad, but I never had particular reason to doubt their sincerity (i.e. they weren't particularly scummy), I mean, one thing 100% obvious from my recent time playing is that sometimes other players have approaches or thought processes that are, from my perspective, basically insane, but despite that, you know. So maybe this is just a perspective difference here between us, but none of the things you point out in ABR's play are exclusive to him, like, at all this game.

Anyway I feel like basically all the one-on-one interactions between Vi and RC, LLD support a read of Vi as Town. Auxiliary things like Vi's take on what Juls said starting Day 2 and (probably) Zakk's replace-in post further support this. This is the sort of thing that I can't say with no paranoia because Vi; if I'm wrong and Vi is scum and Vi continues playing this way it would be hard for me to pick up on the scumminess for probably at least a couple of game Days, though obviously attempts at CONSTANT VIGILANCE would be made.

SKrew is -trying- to be bad at Mafia.

I'll give this to him, if so, he was succeeding regardless of alignment.

I think that Vi is latching onto the wrong subset of certain scummy things (i.e. 'voting for easy targets, seeming to snipe from the sidelines' is a reasonably sophisticated line of thought for finding scum but is wrong on me and I think wrong on ABR->Nachomamma and hasn't touched on what I'd think was relevant similar behavior from e.g. SK, Quaroath - I think you're setting better nets than Zakk but running into a similar problem). But anyway. I want to apologize for compounding my mediocre early play by not acknowledging it and trying to engage you regarding your read on me earlier, Vi. I'd like to have been, or potentially be, a player to bounce ideas/reads off of with you in this game and I think I'd have been more productive if that had happened, but that's not your responsibility, obviously. But a flag of interest in case you ever are interested there.

Spoiler: Master Zik

I see SleepyKrew being pushed for something that is null at the very least least for him, and in my opinion the push on him looks just as scum-driven as the one on Vezok.

Plum and Salamence20 are likely candidates that fit the criteria, but I am nipping this avenue of push before more come.

Plum might be the mislynch if Vi is scum. This does not look like a bus.

Master zakk, you can't call Plum and Vi both scum at the same time. Plum looks like the designated mislynch. Either way, this does not look like a bus. Don't you find this suspicious?

Okay you should clarify where you're coming from and where you're going to here. I actually don't think you're scum despite this sort of messiness, though it does prompt the question of what you think of Salamance and who, if anyone besides Vi, you think is scum trying to engineer this mislynch, and if no one, why you said such a thing. That's about it. Oh yeah, and the response to SK votes seems perfectly in line with Town Master Zik.

Spoiler: Quaroath

Quaroath had some strong posts Day 1 but faded out towards the end of Day 1 and still sort of hoping for more from him here. First big question: Why is Vi Town? Second question: what's your read on me, citations appreciated just so that I can see where you're coming from, thanks. Because for now the most solid thing in your ISO is that "there are many reasons to vote [Plum]" wrt Sal voting someone for voting me on Day 1, which in context is basically "Plum's not so Town that it's straight up scummy to vote her", which isn't much of a read in itself.

Two fairly important questions: who would you have voted if Vi had no vote down at the time of your post? Furthermore, what would you have done if, instead of sputtering out, the Jazz wagon/push maintained and/or gained momentum in the aftermath of your frustration vote?

One player who is basically definitely Town and interesting and stuff: Jazzmyn. Despite the sort of natural reaction to her first substantive post this game, I'm finding her approach and reads pretty valuable as we go on and convincing of a lot of effort in an iceberg-10%-above-the-water-surface kind of way and fairly convincing to get me to take a longer and harder look at Zakk again (though I know Jazzmyn hasn't given strong reads based on Zakk's posts and her read on the slot is based on Kinetic's stuff and not finding Zakk's posts changing her read). Might just be confirmation bias wrt my early read on Kinetic which coincides with hers, but.

Re the Vezok wagon: LLD, Quaroath, SK are the ones I'd really care to look at there. SK is an obvious nonstarter in terms of peeling apart motivations or talking to or anything like that. Quaroath kinda meh. Did have prior suspicion and vote on Vezok and that's sort of legit. Though I'm sort of cooling on his trajectory with the Jazz-vote-for-annoyance-hop-back-to-Vezok once that became a thing again. LLD's stuff is also . . . I don't know. I'd love to see LLD's take on the Vezok lynch and the players on it (besides myself), actually.

I don't really think the Plum case is particularly strong; sure, she's done nothing, but that's been pretty typical of her play as I remember it. I did read her ISO, I did like her frustrated tone in response to some points, but my eyes glazed over because it's too late (early?) to read lots of words.

That being said, don't really have an alternative to Plum and will lend a half-hearted sword there while I get current.

Forgot to check the votecount. Pretty elated I didn't hammer!

*two thumbs up* you got my back, bro

Also it's amazing to see the deviance from Vi's take on it; Vi thinks I'm scum playing mediocrely and has a major scumread on me; you apparently don't think so highly (in one significant respect, anyway) of my play in general and don't share the scumread per se but are happy to vote me. So, uh, thanks, I guess.

So: I feel reasonably okay about Vi, Salamance, Master Zik as above. And, as above, people who deserve scrutiny here - at the very least, more than they've gotten from me recently until this post: Zakk, Quaroath. Part of me can't help feeling that some of his weird inconsistencies are . . . not Town, but, like, something scum would be more likely to perceive and avoid in their own play, like why continue despite everything to really read both me and Vi strongly as scum without recognizing, let alone addressing, the elephant in the room there? Especially knowing he can recognize and call out things that look like similar omissions of judgement in other players? But I don't know if that's really a valuable train of thought for seeing if a Townread is justified. Similarly with Quaroath, definitely needs some reevaluation. Transparency after questioning can only carry you so far, I think.

So that's not all the players, and one player I know I need to better evaluate right now is LLD but don't have brainspace this literal second, obviously waiting with bated breath for Singer, hopeful that I can read her; in similar vein, Ranmaru. Effectively goes without saying and yet I said it, I know. That's just about everyone except Nacho; am okay on Nacho as above + with ABR, would like to see Vi talk more about Nacho if at all relevant.

VOTE: Quaroath

[Plum]

LLD - Because I was really, really, really fucking tired; I'll spare you the IRL details unless you want them. I started my post at a semi-arbitrary point - start of Day 2, sieve for stuff, go back to ISOs and stuff as warranted - trying to cover a few things that I either already knew were important for me to reread and analyze/address (e.g. wrt Vi) and to make sure I tried to give a hard look at players who were weird/prominent in being on or avoiding the wagon on me and updating my reads (e.g. Quaroath, Master Zik, Salamance, zakk). I hadn't really gotten to you by the point that I was basically finished in terms of energy remaining and at that point I just accepted that fact that among the players I had weak reads or reads that needed updating, I hadn't gotten to you.

I'm all but caught up in this game, and I'm feeling reasonably motivated, actually. I'm going to try to keep it that way.

[Plum]

@Plum, I'm not going to click through your spoilers, was there someone in there relevant?

Yes. You might want to at least open the spoiler with your name on it; it contains a couple of questions. I don't think I have anything novel to add about your suspicion of me on basis of using spoiler tags.

[Plum]

I said all but caught up. I was tired. I am currently tired. As mentioned, I have a new school situation and horrible commute. Last night I did what I could to catch up and process and I caught up with/repreocessed almost everything important. If I manage it, I'm sure I'll be doing a thorough read/analysis of you tonight. But I have to go help with other household stuff in a few minutes.

[Plum]

Okay I'm going to at least try to make a quick coherent post re LLD.

Thing is, first of all, I think you're overstating your polarizing nature that makes everyone get some sort of read on you or whatever? Maybe it's just me, but looking and reading back I don't think 'hmm, yeah, LLD did a lot more interesting or controversial stuff than I remembered'. There's a lot of passivity/hanging back early in the game, a lot of pressure-type votes/going along with Vi, and, like, okay, I recognize that as a playstyle easily enough to not be encouraged to read the playstyle instead of the play. And I'm down with your interactions with Vi; they seem productive enough but not in really hard to fake territory if we're talking reads. And what's left is like Teflon. I slide right off. There are definitely bits here and there that are intriguing as to what's going on beneath the surface (questions it raises about motivation for the serious early SK vote; arguably why you read Quaroath as scummy relative to the others who voted Jazz when prompted by Vi), but it's surrounded by swaths of stuff that didn't make much difference in the game.

That all said, I don't *think* you're scum - a little because of the things beneath the surface thing. I think your interaction with me here is Townish with weight given to the follow-up post where you seem genuinely perplexed and frustrated with reading me (and also thanks for that one being a little more positive; definitely helps with motivation on my end, which I appreciate). That said, I may be dealing with a tendency this game to be giving borderline players a little too much benefit of the doubt if they've said or done a couple of things that looked at least a little Townish (see my take on Salamance being questioned by Nacho, whose point is good and warrants a reread/reevaluation of that conclusion on my part, esp. if Salamance is lurking here). I'd like to see your evaluation of the Vezok wagon/participants therein. I'd love to discuss Quaroath with you. Zakk too if you like; I'm wavering back and forth on him in a way that suggests that I'll need to reevaluate again to see if his bizarre approach to stuff like dual wielding Plum/Vi suspicions without addressing the obvious questions there and the bizarre attack on Nacho are coherent and honest and just weird (Nacho's take on the Plum/Vi suspicions) or whether there's something else that can be pulled out of it. I'd also love to see any more detail in your evaluation of me, esp. say Day 1 and how it might have progressed or not by now.

Ranmaru will have to wait for tomorrow I guess esp. given I want to see what he comes up with when finished reading (I mean, it was kinda meh, especially given how few players got any screentime in his notes and summation, but I might be biased because a lot of it was effectively an attack on me).

[Plum]

I'm sorry, with me at L-2 you felt that if you didn't place an L-1 vote there was a risk that interest in my lynch would fade? Uh, really?

Regarding Ranmaru finding Vi scummy . . . is it just me or did this previous post not feel like Ranmaru talking to a major suspect of his? Especially

Yet I'd like for you to show why you think I simply want to find you as scum, instead of genuinely believing you are scum from your D1 play. You should have been putting in effort from the very beginning, you shouldn't have started so late. If there are any posts you'd like for me to analyze to consider in my read on you from D2, link it and I'll look into it.

Why tell Vi how he thinks Vi *should* have played early Day 1?

Vi - maybe Saturday night or Sunday EDTish?

[Plum]

Vi - I've been out of the house 12 hours today, need to do food related stuff. Tomorrow during the day work? I actually think I'll be doing stuff from home so I'll squeeze it in.

[Plum]

Okay there are too many walls and everything hurts.

LLD, I'm not sure how well I can currently sell you on Quaroath. He says he's going to be posting here this weekend. I'll see if he acquits himself well or not. If you think pressure is good at any point in the process your input is welcome, naturally. With regard to your later question about scumreads overall: Quaroath, Salamance, zakk (??? big question marks here). On basis of Vi's reads, I'm going to examine the Zik/zakk more.

I'll take Vi's reversal on Ranmaru for what it's worth; I'd still love to understand why Ranmaru continues talking about scumreads the way he does
(e.g. "I do want to say this [unvoting Ranmaru] isn't enough for me to flip a read on you [Vi]", still talking less to a scum suspect than to a sort of abstract medium onto which he is projecting and defending reads). Also, while LLD is talking about weird things Ranmaru has said in discussing reading her, there was that time he effectively said, to the post where LLD voted me Day 1 "LLD is Town for this . . . conditional on Plum being scum" only in far more words.

Singersigner seems cool enough for the moment.

I'm actually interested in Salamence's opinion. He seems to be posting more in other games than here. I just feel his presence is lacking as opposed to his earlier game presence.

Uh, yeahhhhh.

I'm all but caught up in this game, and I'm feeling reasonably motivated, actually. I'm going to try to keep it that way.

Could you not ignore me completely?
I understand that you're being pulled in a lot of different directions this game, but I made effort (on a phone!) to engage you specifically and would like at least an acknowledgement of that.

Nacho, I am sorry! Let me do that properly now. Also, thank you for your honest evaluation of me and some of my issues in playing the game. They are accurate and good and appreciated by me whether or not other people find them useful.

Re zakk: I get what you're saying re it not seeming to offer much benefit to him if he's scum, and I'm going back and forth on him in my head (on like everything, including the weird push on you, which similar situation that doesn't look like zakk-scum benefits from it but it's just so bizarre and stuff) like some kind of stupid pendulum.

Ehhh. Kinda weird overall, but the most salient reading of Salamance wrt me is, in my view, that Salamance read the early wagon on me as scummy early and that read lodged in his head and has sort of overinformed his reads in stuff relating to me since then; he lacks any substantive explication of the read on me and not much attempt at reevaluation of the initial read on the earliest Plum wagon.

Hmmm. Why do you draw this conclusion instead of the more obvious and more intuitive one where his early town read you is as weak and inconsistent as it is because he's white knighting you to gain cred from the wagon but still would like to see you lynched?

You have a good point. My conclusion was based on an assumption that scum white knighting a Townie in my position would gain more from it/be safer if he were more aggressive in my favor and in attacks against those who pushed me (given that I don't think even an aggressive attack from Salamance on that basis would change much). But your analysis has points in its favor. And also Salamance's one post in the last few days was basically 'I'm prod-dodging; Plum is Town" which, like, why? It's not like you haven't made it

abundantly clear

that you think I'm Town and stuff. That's the exact opposite of news. And also it's a more aggressive/forward use of the purported read on me . . . so . . .

319...I don’t like that Plum continues to avoid Jazz’s question despite being assured it’s a legitimate question. Even if townPlum thinks it’s coming from scumJazz, she’s not even voting him to make that clear, so it’s just being unnecessarily antagonistic which *I think* is out of character for her.

The sense I got from Plum's responses is just that it was a bad question to ask. I don't think it was unnecessarily antagonistic; I just don't think Plum felt like wasting her time on an answer that wasn't going to be understood.

I think it some respects it was unnecessarily antagonistic (that's what I was trying to apologize for) and certainly keeping going in that way was unproductive.

Ranmaru, what do you want to discuss with me? I'm not super interested in going through every single thing you've said about me, but we can do highlights or something and/or discuss other people. If you're stiff confused by my attitude wrt Vi in the early game, I'll try to clarify.

Vi, I will try to catch you and then we won't be boats passing in the night (I had been thinking of making some sort of joke about you and zakk being boats passing in the night with regard to Nacho and the set reads getting all mixed up, but it never happened).

[Plum]

Ranmaru - I'm where I was with those guys. LLD probably Townreading a little more strongly, to be honest. I think her interactions with Vi combined with Vi's Townread are compatible with LLD-Town and sufficient for now. Singer leaning Town. Quaroath still scummy. It would be cool if you tried to figure out something stronger about Quaroath; I seem to recall you saying that he was super null? But also that you liked a bunch of his posts in your catchup?

Regarding your response to Vi's unvote, it was weird mostly because you were responding to what you seemed to be treating as an unspoken assumption (that your read on Vi would substantially change based on Vi's unvote alone) which I didn't see would really be an assumption most players would make if you didn't say anything.

Vote: Plum

Her voting this way shows me she may be townie. Her voting alone doesn't help me get a read on her, I have to have good reads and hopefully get the interaction right. Meaning, if Plum flips scum, LLD will be a stronger lean of town to me.

I'm sorry, this was just one of many things I vaguely recalled from skimming your catchup posts that I found, like, really laughable?

Preview edit: Yes, Nacho, there is also that, and I don't think it's a bad reason. I perhaps should not have mentioned anything specific he posted in catchup mode because of the risk of going down the rabbit hole to little purpose but to satisfy my desire to point out how weird some of the things he said really were.

[Plum]

Most of the people who thought ABR was Town when he was still here thought most of his reads and stuff were junk, tbh, me included.

[Plum]

Hey Plum. Can you get to my question?

Which one? Why I'm cool with Vi's read on you? I mean, Vi's Town. There was definitely something I felt was off about some of your approach (e.g. talking to Vi like you were criticizing Vi's play for not conforming to your vision of Townplay instead of it being scummy; I didn't love the huge pushy Vi case either - it epitomized the reason people say 'cases are scummy') but if Vi (and LLD, and Nacho too) come out of it reading you as Town, I'm inclined to trust that at the moment. Do you think Vi was, during the period questioning you, actively trying to determine your alignment and that Vi's unvote was a reflection of that? Or what?

[Plum]

As for Plum vs VI, I just have more gut on Plum. And it was earlier, and reads I make earlier in the game tend to be more accurate. And VI is being pretty active and I always like to keep active people around regardless of their alignment and get rid of non-contributors like your own predecessor as quickly as possible, to make way for replacements like you who actually give a hoot. And Plum is not being active, and she's scum, so I think she should die first. Also she was the one up on the chopping block versus vezopiraka yesterday so I don't want her lurking her way through things.

Okay, look, I'm not currently lurking. I'm currently being reasonably active. Where I haven't been active this week, I've apologized and explained about my IRL stuff while trying to be productive. I've certainly posted stuff that is relevant to, perhaps, reading me.

So don't pretend that I'm lurking, okay? It's actually starting to piss me off. And while you're at it, consider that 'Plum should be lynched because she wasn't lynched Day 1' is a pretty lousy argument.

Preview edit: Ranmaru, getting back to you after this post.

[Plum]

Ranmaru - Why do I think Vi is Town? Read my posts again and get back to me if still unclear.

I did read your case (well, somewhere between skimmed and read); I did read your response to the thing about the way you were talking to Vi.

My own evaluation is heavily augmented by the reads of Vi, LLD, Nacho. I couldn't filter that out completely if I tried. If they weren't there, I'd probably be frustrated and unsure on you (because of things like the things that felt off vs. say the sheer volume of words that seems somewhat earnest, plus trying to evaluate how beneficial to scum a huge adamant push on Vi is in the current environment); similar to Zakk. That's why having Townreads is helpful.

The motive for unvoting you there is, if Vi's now convinced you're probably Town, no need to try to push a wagon from start, no basis for pretending she had a scumread on you or was deeply uncertain about you. Even in a system where you wagon up and scumhunt from there (as you're assuming based on what Nacho described as one tactic Vi has used in this game), you don't literally push a wagon on anyone. There's diminishing returns all over the place. In fact, if Vi came to the conclusion that you were Town, I expect that she'd cut off immediately due to massive diminishing returns of staying in a wordy back-and-forth with you that wasn't liable to illuminate anything for her and possibly mire the whole Town in stuff that wasn't a really direct scumhunting effort, esp. at this point in the game.

Preview edit: Zakk, I see your post. I need to go to sleep soon. What would you like to talk about re Vi, Nacho, myself?

[Plum]

I need to go to sleep soon too.

You choose what we talk about. I'm interested to know what you'll choose.

I'm egocentric; let's talk about me. Have you read some of my recent posts? Any thoughts?

[Plum]

Zakk - uh, cool. I guess. I'm going to sleep now unless you have more to say on the matter.

[Plum]

Oh yeah, while we're here - Master Zik, have you read my posts of this past week or so? What is your read on me?

Ranmaru, will get to the reads-elaboration tomorrow. I'm basically still up only because people are still posting in this game at a ridiculous pace.

[Plum]

Okay how the fuck can you say with a straight face that I'm powerlurking? How the actual fuck?

[Plum]

Yeah, you're just trying to piss me off now, zakk.

Seriously.

I'll deal with you this evening when I'm not confined to mobile.

[Plum]

Sure. Spoiler alert: not currently seeing Jazz-scum but I'll take a serious look.

[Plum]

No, zakk, it wasn't designed to get you off my wagon. I'm not concerned by your vote or case or whatever. Just annoyed. Which presumably was by your design.

Why annoyed?

Firstly, because accusing me of power-lurking now is an outright lie.

Second, because you're screwing around trying to figure out how to make me look bad however you can.

When plum gets challenged, she disappears and nobody has anything to interact with, so they lose interest. Maybe she's been really RL busy, I didn't check her posts like nacho and I am on mobile so I can't now, but it's worth checking to see if she's avoiding the game like nacho was

Completely aside from the fact that my activity has been pretty decent this past week, and that over this past week I have been talking to people who've challenged me - including you! directly! But when it turns out that I

have been busy IRL

, suddenly it

is

scummy and not a factor relevant to your accusation, as you first suggest. Furthermore, it's an attack that rests on me being so lacking in integrity that I'd dissemble about out-of-game stuff to gain an in-game advantage. And for fuck's sake, one of your quotes about that is from a point in time when we had both expressed in the previous few minutes that we were on the verge of going to bed because it was late at night. Compare LLD. She was, possibly still is suspicious of me for activity and interacting-with-an-accusing -player-related stuff; she still has her vote on me. The differences between LLD and zakk in this matter are left as an exercise for the reader.

As for the rest of your case, it's largely a series of buzzwords and reflective of the fact that, as you claim, you haven't been reading my recent posts anyway. If you'd like to outline why you think I've been "discouraging scumhunting", why you think that not suspecting some of the people who suspect me is scum-motivated as done in this game (because claiming that no Townie ever Townreads someone who suspects her is facile), where you see me "trying to ride the site popularity wagon" and to what end, perhaps your words will be worth refuting (as for the last two, it's pretty subjective, but you can try to outline why you think what I was doing served a scum agenda if you like).

VOTE: zakk

[Plum]

Vi: If that's the case in your eyes, I can do little but offer my apologies.

Nacho:

... fine.

UNVOTE:

I'll consider things (Zik) more closely when I have enough brainpower to think.

[Plum]

Well. I can't get everything right. I barely have the mental energy to think. I should probably try to just wait a little so that emotions or whatever aren't affecting my posts so much.

[Plum]

Well, in a way I'm glad zakk was scum. Not saying that I think that what he did this game, hounding me and trying to piss me off like that and then further slandering me by insinuating that I would replace out of a game for tactical benefit, was at all called for. I'm actually still upset. But given that it was a deliberate scum tactic, it's not something I would take him to task for on a game level. It worked. On the other hand, however tactical the decision was, I can't see myself excited to play with zakk in the future.

On the other hand, zakk

was

scum and he

was

deliberately trying to get me upset. And I did, to the point that I was in a position similar to Vi's - I realized that my real-life stress was affecting my play, and, more importantly, the game was affecting my ability to cope in real life with a recent move, a newly entered PhD program, and all the rest; I literally didn't have the emotional energy left over to deal with zakk gleefully lying about my activity levels and declaring that I wasn't putting in enough effort and therefore was scum. At that point I spoke to the Mod, who basically absolved me of the guilt I felt replacing out of a game that had already seen so many replacements. At which point, having decided to replace out, I notified the Moderator officially and ceased posting in the game. Metal Sonic will recall that I developed very strong feelings about tactical replacing out and about anything that might resemble the same after a recent game we both played in, to the point that I decided my policy would be to refrain from posting in any game after I decided to replace out, including to post a notification publicly or give explanation, on the grounds that it could be a form of out-of-game information influencing an in-progress game (any future games I Mod will have a rule related to this as well, to the effect that in-game requests to replace out are irrelevant and only requests to the Mod by PM have any game value). Perhaps taken to extremes, but still. Even such things as Vi's public replace-out and retraction touched on those issues, though I don't think there was necessarily any game compromise surrounding it.

Vi, it was lovely to play with you again; I really valued that opportunity and regret that I had to replace out. Sorry that, as we shared a faction, a lot of my play was mediocre (it was), and sorry you had some bad experiences with this game. Nacho, you're still awesome. And thanks to all the rest and the Mod; good game all.