Mini 1745: Mutant Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Varsoon]

VOTE: 3dice
Dude's too chummy and accepting (and too willing to vote for me, hm, yes, mmm).

@Suzune: Why are you softing Miller + other stuff so early? Are you scum or do you just love to inform the kill? Regardless, I'd be okay if it was a flat out-and-out miller claim, but bringing out the other stuff the second people start questioning your miller claim makes it seem like you're already wheeling defensive. It's as though you're saying, "but hold on, hold on, don't be critical of me, I've got some other pro-town part of my role!" It's awkward, doesn't make any sense for D1 town to do with the exception of a handful of gambits, but then it'd still be informing the kill, so I don't see the town mentality behind this play. At all.

@lane: Why did you claim? Are you just trying to gain towncred while hoping people avoid actually targeting you with powers early? Like Suzune, if you're town, you're just informing scum. I don't understand your claim, either; please elaborate on why you though it'd be okay to claim D1.

I'm more comfortable with Lane as town here than Suzune, because at least Lane's role can be confirmed; Suzune's is just an awkward claim and seems like a gambit to me.

[Varsoon]

Obligatory opening-game image:



Lane, can you show me where Farside clearly knows Suzune isnt just-a-miller before Suzune's post about only claiming the miller 'part'?

[Varsoon]

I just went back to look for it myself.
Farside, that's pretty awkward.

[Varsoon]

Ugh, this feels gross.

@Lane: I'm aware of the ISO feature, man. I just thought that Suzune made the post about partial claiming first and was hoping you could direct me to that Farside post.

[Varsoon]

I'm interested, but it feels like I'm tumbling down a rabbit hole.
If Farside is informed of Suzune's role and Suzune knew this, then why would Farside ask for more info/claim from Suzune?
It's weird and pings all kinds of strange to me.
I can think of a handful of possibilities, but all of them sound like the kind of shit I'd awkwardly scum-gambit with to either crash or win a game.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Ocean
Nice attempt at controlling momentum while sliding a second vote into a wagon that's not entirely comprised of votes with no explanation.
Speaking of explanation; you should get on with that.

@Farside: I'm bad at figuring this kind of thing out, but I care more about why you chose to interact with Suzune the way you did.

[Varsoon]

I ruled that out because I'm used to neighbors having daychat; you asking Suzune about her role in-thread seemed to indicate that you wanted the rest of Suzune's role to become public info.
I'm curious why.

[Varsoon]

No, Ocean.
You answer me first before jumping the gun to question people with reads that conflict yours.

[Varsoon]

My first vote was meant to strike up some vote movement (RVS votes usually are). I like cross-voting and I like doubling-down on wagons in early D1 because I hate long-winded D1's. 3Dice also was a solid vote for me because he wasn't really putting any pressure around the claims; he did not seem to be trying to suss out why people were claiming or to what end.


It bothers me that you'd slam a vote then make a case after the fact and your conf-bias in making your case shows.
When I agree with something, you call it sheeping.
Where I ask questions and apply pressure, you call it busywork.
All you're doing here is a game of saying one thing is another.

You know what I think is kinda awkward?
You're saying Lane is going to be 'confirmed' sooner or later, as if you know that he's not lying about his role and that you're not skeptical at all. You pop in a bit right after that where you write that " it very unlikely scum would claim reflexive neighborizer anyways", which is a bit at odds with this--do you mean that Lane's role will be confirmed or deconfirmed or do you mean his alignment? The reason this pings for me is that you're saying with certainty that "Lane will be confirmed". That's weird to me. It's weird that you'd vote someone over questioning an alignment-based claim on D1, too.

[Varsoon]

Hey, Ocean, I think that grass is green.
Do you think that grass is green?

[Varsoon]

Gonna also forward 3dice's question here;
Why do you assume farside is a townie?

You keep operating on assumptions that people are town.

[Varsoon]

You can stop insisting on using the word 'sheeping' wrong, Ocean. Every time I read your posts, I'm all

This is a joke, right? You never saw anyone naked vote before? I had my reasons for voting you. I didn't give them out because I wanted to see how you'd react. All you came up with was a vote back on me.

I don't think scum would claim something that is verifiable - as such, I'm townreading Lane for that claim. I think confirmed or not, it is obvious he's town because his move would be suicide for scum to attempt. And yes, we can verify that soon. I don't know what part of this is unclear.

I'm not joking.
Naked votes are awful, by the way. Furthermore, you looked like you conjured up your points against me after the fact; again, the conf-bias leads me to believe you're just trying to justify a vote. You're using buzzwords and simply presenting information and saying that it is scum.

I'm saying that it's awkward that you're treating Lane as 'confirmed' eventually. That doesn't strike be as a town mindset

because

(I know this word might not be in your dictionary, so you should add it) you're writing a player off based on a claim on D1 without questioning anything or sussing out

why

the player made that claim. When a player does something that makes them seem 'obvious' town, you bet your ass I'm going to question it. Especially in the early-game. The only innocents are bodies, homie.

I don't "know" Farside is a townie. I'm townreading Farside because the way she questioned Suzune about not claiming her full role and then questioning for buying it and finally outing what she knows looked pretty clearly town.

You could play a little less in absolutes, y'know.
This also feels like a cop out.
What about Farside's questioning (and making Suzune out her info) looks town to you, specifically?

Stop avoiding my question about grass being green.

[Varsoon]

Why does Lane make that claim on D1?
What is the goal of making that claim?
Why would a town-Lane claim a role that informs the kill (unless gambiting, which would fail, as the claim is reflexive and the jig would be up as soon as the 'reflexive' bit did not go through)?

I'm skeptical of Farside. If Farside has private communication with Suzune (even if limited), I think the town thing would to have been to figure role-things out in an environment that may not have scum privy to it. Instead, Farside put more info in the public game (which only makes sense to me if Farside thinks Suzune is a different alignment than herself). The eventual arbitration and proceeding as mason strikes me more as a successful D1 buddy at worst and a good way to put down a game-stuttering tangent at best. Not where I want to direct my efforts right now, though. I feel comfortable enough about Farside so far despite my misgivings.

I think 3dice is actually doing better now; asking questions that I'd ask. I'd sheep him. :3

I'm actually trying to keep an eye out for something in particular, myself.

You keep dodging my green grass question, you butt.

[Varsoon]

I think it's the kind of thing that'll be more telling later in the game than right now.
I'm willing to put faith in you two saying it's good because I doubt scum would commit to that much theatre that early.

[Varsoon]

You're still avoiding my green grass question, Ocean.

Also; me responding to you is now my 'entire focus' shifting to try to 'discredit' you?
Okay. Sorry for ever engaging with you.

/shrug

I guess it's cool.

[Varsoon]

You're really good with conjuring make-believe reasons for things instead of just legit talking to me.

[Varsoon]

If you want to play a game of rhetorical masturbation; go ahead.
I'll wait over here until you're done. There's no use in talking to you when you're stroking yourself off like this. You don't care about engaging with me or the reality of the game.

[Varsoon]

I'd appreciate it if you'd answer my question about the grass.

I'd also be far more comfortable with your slot if you'd stop suggesting made up reasons for why I have done things. You outright lied about a lot of things and while I could sit here and grapple with you over this for twenty-some pages, I've learned that no good ever comes out of that. :/

Your fantasy is your reality. It's my job to figure out if you're just faking it to get me lynched or if you really believe everything you're writing. So, yeah.
I'd rather not spam up the thread with incessant back-and-forth, especially since half the players haven't even checked in.
We can let people look at the game and decide for themselves.

[Varsoon]

Nah, I'm just trying to be cute so I can bait/mock Ocean's approach.
He's supposed to say, "Of course grass is green."
And then I say, "Stop sheeping me!
VOTE: Oceanwind"

The point is that Oceanwind doesn't know what sheeping is, or at the very least is making mountains out of molehills and it's not healthy for the game state at all.
:/

[Varsoon]

I think by now, though, the Green Grass Question is more representative of Oceanwind selectively combing my posts for things to complain about and scumpaint, rather than actually talking to me.

[Varsoon]

@Dier: Why the max vote?
I should probably sleep, too.
I've got a shift at 6 AM.

@Suzune: I was trying to choose something obvious that most people would agree on. I was going to go with the sky being blue, but then realized it isn't always. I think most people would agree with Farside's early points about 3Dice, ergo, the amount of noise that Ocean is making over me 'sheeping' those points is a bit moot.

[Varsoon]

1. Have you ever seen scum fake-claim miller? Have you seen town millers claim D1 in the past? How well do you remember these events? Links to those games are preferable.

2. What do you believe is the optimal play as miller? Have you drawn this role before? If so, link it.

3. Explain your read on 3dicerolling.

I should be asleep. I wish there were more hours in the day. Rather; I wish I did not have to work. :/
Anyway;

1. I've seen scum claim miller and I've done it as recently as this year. In Classic Rock Mafia, I claimed a cop guilty on the actual cop to get him lynched then I backed into claiming miller (with my scum partner and actual cop-guilty counterclaiming miller); this play won my team the game. I've also seen town claim miller on D1 very recently, too; in Secret Alt Mafia 2, Gumby claimed miller and was a consistently town-read player through the whole game. I've also fake-claimed Miller D1 as town before as well in Persona 4 Mafia when I was actually a deputy--the goal was to keep the cop from wasting a shot on me while ensuring my own survivability. So, yeah, I've had some recent experience with miller claims from both factions. I believe that scum is less likely to claim miller early but I have heard stories of scum skating by on early miller claims and I've seen far weirder stuff happen.

2. I believe that optimal play as miller is to either immediately claim Miller or to avoid it entirely (and play in a way that avoids catching a cop guilty). Claiming does ensure that investigatives avoid you (which is good) but it also informs scum that there is a likely investigative PR and that it's in a slot other than the claimed miller slot. If capable of being pulled off, I think an effective Miller play could be to fake-claim cop to draw a kill and protect the real investigative, but this also requires the finesse of letting the actual investigative role know what's up before botching things.

3. 3D's earlier posts didn't put down the pressure that I felt a player should be putting on others given the situation he was in. Recently, he's been asking questions that I feel are more in-line with trying to figure out the game and applying pressure. I still think he's not committing that hard to anything and sort of 'going with the flow', but that's about it.

Not crazy about your appeal to competency.

[Varsoon]

Actually, on claiming miller as miller, I think it comes down to the size of the game. In a larger game, claiming miller is fine, because the scum have a much lower chance of hitting the investigative with a kill and by eliminating yourself from the investigative list of targets, you ensure that valuable shots are not wasted. Claimed millers are usually seen as a liability and as a claimed role that can't be taken into LYLO, making them a more dangerous claim in a smaller game, as they are more likely to reach LYLO in less days.

[Varsoon]

Why even make that appeal, though?
I don't see what purpose it serves, aside from your admitted baiting.

I've got a very awkward approach, though. It's worked for me as of late; I've been having some pretty good town wins.
I think my biggest fault is getting either too distant from the game or far too empassioned by it. I like to sink my teeth into the game; especially into my scumreads, but it usually ends up being distracting and can hurt town efforts (especially if I am wrong), so I'm trying to curb that. Can always improve and all that.

I'll get to BRantz tomorrow; I really should have gone to sleep two hours ago.
The short is that I agree with him but would like more of his thoughts on the game and I want to see him interact with players rather than just swoop in and state positions.

[Varsoon]

He does ask some questions (which I do like) but I wanna see how he processes the responses and what he does with that.
I've played with BRantz a little before but I really don't have much of a means of discerning his alignment aside from just kinda watching for awhile.

[Varsoon]

I'll try to stay concise for the sake of folks already complaining re:Walls

Lane's town.
I'm keeping my vote on Ocean.

@Farside: Were you in that Clue Mafia game where I hydra'd with Titus and made a mess of things?
Your play here feels a little more straight forward than there (if it was you there, even). I might be remembering things wrong.
I don't mind naked votes (and even use them a good deal myself), but there's a distinction between an exploitative vote and a genuine one. Ocean's vote landed at a time when game focus was elsewhere; the result of which seemed to me to either be to cast a vote while attention was elsewhere or to divert the heavy game momentum to where he voted (more the second, imo). That sort of thing can come from either town or scum, which is why I have been giving Ocean a hard time over it and trying to figure out Ocean's thought process, motivation, and intent. I still feel as though it is an exploitative vote followed by a biased case, coupled with some anti-town aftermath and no other player has thrown up a flag greater than that one as of yet.

@Xtoxm: Did we end up on the same side of the fence this time? If we're not both town, just kill me tonight plz.

[Varsoon]

@3Dice: I feel like BRantz is asking the right questions and is reasonably holding his own when he's been given more than one chance to let his convictions waver. He's clearly engaged and thinking about the game to the point of trying to figure things out. I don't mind being on the same wagon as him at all; in fact, it gives me a little more confidence in my reads to have him there.

@Xtoxm:

[Varsoon]

Yeah man, what's the beef?
Also, dis seems like BRantz' towngame but idk I'm not a meta

[Varsoon]

@Wanderer: Dunno if you answered this earlier, but what do you make of Lane's claim/the way he claimed/people's reactions (such that you're null-scum reading him)?

[Varsoon]

Been buuuusy prodge

[Varsoon]

All these replaces and V/LAs and I'm working 11 hours a day normally. D:
I'll be limited in activity, but no so much I need to take a V/LA.
I worked 36 hours in the last 3 days with 3 hours of sleep. :/
I can check the game once a day, two if lucky.
Work and Holidays got me like:



Anyway:

VOTE: 3DR
Because Ocean's going nowhere (and I need to focus my energy elsewhere) and I actually do wanna be like, man, that guy just fell in line.
Also because Xtoxm peer-pressured me into it.

[Varsoon]

<3 Farside
I only get away with my work because I have no other obligations but a good friend in town.

VOTE: fuzzy
You're going to have to explain what you find scummy there, guy.
Also, nice try at revitalizing my wagon as it started to falter.

[Varsoon]

Actually... Tom can wait.

VOTE: farside22

There is no way she is town this game.

Explain?

[Varsoon]

Who is showing shades of their scum meta?

You could answer this one for me.

[Varsoon]

Felt like it.
My vote wasn't really doing anything on you and I wanted to push 3DR a bit more.
I honestly don't know what to do at this point, though.
It's been hard to follow along given how busy I've been.

[Varsoon]

The way that 3DR kinda faded into the background after awhile bugged me.
No one's really town for sure until the mod says so. It's important to be critical of everyone.

[Varsoon]

Null/scum. Don't know why he's pushing me, feels awkward to me, but I also have no idea how to start to engage it.
Also, I'm not actually feeling much pressure there, so it's hard to discern what he's looking for with that push on me.
Honestly, he's my best candidate for scum as of now, which isn't saying much.

[Varsoon]

Was it even an L-2 vote?
Fuzzy explained his vote, I'm just like, "Okay, but what do I do about that?"
Y'know?

[Varsoon]

That's what I'm saying; Fuzzy's reasons make sense, so it's not as if I can refute the points themselves or anything.
What strikes me is the timing of Fuzzy's vote along with Fuzzy's general activity all game.

[Varsoon]

Yeah; because that's the way those votes look to me.
As far as the timing, I note that because Fuzzy's activity and words per post spiked significantly when he came to vote for me. Elsewhere in the game, Fuzzy has shared quite little. The supposed furor from him directed at me does not feel anything but contrived.

[Varsoon]

The spike seems artificial in regards to the rest of fuzzy's activity across the board.
It does not seem natural and fitting; but, rather, like a forced attempt at a quick push to get me lynched.
Insisting on keeping the game going in a single direction (especially early) leads to town stagnation. Discussion quickly has nowhere to go and the important kinds of interactions that could happen instead get drowned out.

Neither of these things are full on indicators of scum, but are definitely anti-town in my book.
:/

[Varsoon]

You keep acting like L-2 means something. We're in a mini, dude. Chill out.
Furthermore, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
VOTE: OceanWind
This inability to do anything but continue to play the 'Lets discuss Varsoon!' card over and over, it's hurting the game.
We've got cool, weird claims. We've got lurkers and people who have recently replaced in. We've got hot-fast little pushes happening here and there. We've got the embers of a game with a neat day one, smothered in this almost-15-page blanket of Varsoon-discussion.

I could write a bunch of speculation and mudsling your posts with "quotes" on everything and call you horseshit too, but I'm just gonna vote you instead.
Cool? Cool.

[Varsoon]

No, it doesn't. I think you are probably just Varsoon's partner.

I suppose anyone who defends me now is also my partner?
Good logic, would sheep.


@Pisskop: I'd like to chew the fat with ya.
What are your reads?
Specifically, what's your position on the claimed players as of now? How do you feel about Ocean returning to our 1v1? How's life in the city?

[Varsoon]

But yeah also gonna be afk most the day, as STAR WARS and FINISHING GRADUATE SCHOOL and VISITING FRIENDS and WORK loom overhead.
D:

[Varsoon]

I dunno man the 'TRAITOR' trooper and FN were pretty cool

[Varsoon]

@Farside: Can you direct me to what makes BRantz obvious scum?

[Varsoon]

I'm not really familiar with BRantz' meta and the same accusations of cherry-picking have been made about me, so it's like,
produce something more convincing?

To me, he's more null than anything as of now.

[Varsoon]

I was referring to this game, Farside.
I just want you to provide some basis for your meta claims really?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, but it's been awhile.
I don't see the meta behavior as particularly damning. /shrug
I usually don't rely on meta, though. I'm bad when it comes to tells and stuff.

[Varsoon]

I'm always online, homie.
Always have a tab open here.
Don't really have much to say, though.
Why is who voting me?

[Varsoon]

Fuzzy's voting me for my own votes and not addressing him, I think.
Ocean's on me for being scummy? He's voting me now 'cus I find problems with people who voted me/made cases on me.
laladuck's vote on me seems to be a joke about starwars and maybe-sheeping.

iirc, that is.

[Varsoon]

People are pressing Suzune?
Why, though?
The facts of Suzune's role will be made clear enough in time and Millers are never taken into LYLO

[Varsoon]

@Ocean: I'm voting Fuzzy? Pretty sure that's not the case.

[Varsoon]

I don't like that in Post 574, Fuzzy quickly changed his tune to saying Varsoon's reasoning on me is bad when his initial stance was that I was pushing a poor case on Varsoon.

But now that he and Varsoon are voting each other and calling each other mafia

, he's suddenly on my side of the me vs Varsoon conflict and no longer calls me mafia. That leaves me conflicted on him.

Oh, I suppose I misread the bolded as present tense for the game as-is.
I've been pretty run thin with the holidays and all that, but I don't have any huge tugs in my gut at this point in the game.
I guess I'm townreading most of the people others think are suspicious, so maybe we should talk about those reads so I can figure things out for sure?
I'm reading pisskop's curt posting and seeming-annoyance as town.
I'm seeing BRantZ's approach as similar in tone to other town-BRantZ games and I don't really feel like there's scum motivation there.
Dierfire is completely evading my radar.
/shrugs and hugs
UNVOTE:

Not really feeling Ocean any more.

[Varsoon]

Koggz' catchup is a bit awkward for me and seems to just disrupt things. I'd prefer it just be one spoiler'd wallpost or concise points at once, but, eh. Catchups.
I agree that not much has stood out in the catchup for me.
I don't have any experience with this player.
What slot did they replace?

[Varsoon]

@Fuzzy: You're chummin' hard with that awkward BRantZ pre-emptive.
If you were reading my posts you'd know I'm townreading BRantZ.

[Varsoon]

Vig the miller claim,
Investigate the most universally townread player.

[Varsoon]

Not pisskop's?
Also, why are you so quick to decry the wagon?
I don't recall you having a huge townread there.

P-EDIT:
You gonna ask those people about their votes instead of shruggin' on it?

[Varsoon]

Elaborate?

[Varsoon]

Why do those votes seem least fitting, though?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: laladucks

[Varsoon]

"Gonna say these guys are most suspicious on-the-wagon right when it hits L-1"
Those guys have been consistently scumreading that player though.
"Oops."

P-EDIT:
VOTE: lalaladucks
oops.

[Varsoon]

Kinda hope Brantz is scum so pisskop can rub it in Ocean's face.

[Varsoon]

So, you think that pisskop is scum regardless of Brantz' align?

[Varsoon]

Oh, 'cus you're giving pisskop a hard time for wagoning someone who might be scum.

[Varsoon]

And you don't seem to be trying to pull teeth enough to get pisskop to elaborate on his vote; you're just like, "That thing you did there is scummy man."

[Varsoon]

I can think of a few of those, man.
What was the theme?
I did extra horrible Clue Master Detective where I hydra'd with Titus.
Maybe it was Monogatari Mafia? I did real bad there, too. :/

[Varsoon]

Would Brantz/Pisskop scum bus in this situation, though?
If we were in the position where we had both scum practically caught, bussing wouldn't be that optimal, imo.

[Varsoon]

@pisskop: iirc, you replaced into that one?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I don't like using meta (because I think it can be manipulated easily and I am bad at using it well) but this does remind me a lot of town-pisskop games.

@Ocean: I just don't see much that scum-pisskop has to gain from throttling the wagon into l-1 territory. Regardless, it's better for him to be on the lynch wagon rather than off for the sake of reading him across the game, so I think it's even worse of a play if he's scum. /shrugs

[Varsoon]

Well now I have to question if you're adhering to town meta in order to play that angle as scum or if you're just towning it up as you typically do. Meta wifom, the worst kind!

[Varsoon]

To be fair, your game doesn't feel forced to me here, which is either a compliment to you duping me as scum or your towniness, so, eh, occam's razor.
Occam's razor.
Town-pisskop is probably town-pisskop.
It's D1. We should just go for a lynch and then work with claimed night actions and flips from there.

[Varsoon]

"Oh hey looks like the new day finally started, well not many people are probably posting in there cus of the holida--15 new pages!?"

Here are my highlights catching up:

Kinda hope Brantz is scum so pisskop can rub it in Ocean's face.

Yuuuuussss
Yuuuuusss
Ofc Ocean's now scumreading you, so now you've got to flip town so I can rub

that

in Ocean's face.

He's literally trolling at this point.

Koggs isn't a wasting a protection on anyone. MAXOUS would have protected Koggz because Koggz was a) a likely nightkill, and b) even if he wasn't, Maxous would have confirmed Koggz's alignment. I'm not sure how many more ways it can be phrased, Pisskop.

Why are you insisting that Maxous died protecting Koggz?
Why are you saying Koggz has 'a protection'?

Oh shit, just got a clarification from mod. I have a guilty on 3dice.

3dice, please fullclaim immediately. Then die anyway.

For real?
VOTE: 3dice
Ayo. Also awkward is the VT claim with no other confirmed VTs yet.
This would explain the weirder parts of his D1 play.

We have 3 claimed investigators. I believe all three.

I demand massclaim, because we have a decent shot at breaking this setup as it stands.

Why do you want a massclaim?
Massclaim in closed setup is literally the worst idea.
If I was a vig, I'd shoot you.

[Varsoon]

Oh, also:

@3Dice:

Are you really VT? For real?

@Fuzzy:

How did you know you lost your vote? Is it temporary? Can you tell us more about that?

@Koggz:

Do you receive any indication when people target you that you've reflexively let them know you're town?

@Ocean:

Why do you support a mass-claim? Why did you target Dierfire N1?


P-edit:
@Ocean: Because you were arguing with Pisskop over lynches and Pisskop wanted Brantz more, iirc.
Why should I claim? Why do you assume there's no vig when they could have shot Maxous/Max's target?

@Pisskop: The image or what? Or are you replying to Ocean?

[Varsoon]

Claim. Now. Quit stalling. You'll get your answers soon enough.

No.
You tell me how a massclaim helps us solve the game.
Furthermore, you pushing me for a claim and insisting I'm stalling (we have awhile till deadline, homie) is really awkward and I can't see why you wouldn't just explain why you want/support a massclaim.

[Varsoon]

I'mma tell you straight up; based on info I have and on the claims so far, a massclaim would not solve this game.

[Varsoon]

I'mma also tell you further-straight-even-more-up, one of our claimed investigators is probably a liar.

[Varsoon]

Rules post even says that there is at least one VT in the game, so get rekt.

Oh fo' real?
Well then I guess I believe you some more.
I once built a setup with exactly one VT in it. Y'know. For fun.
UNVOTE: for now.

@Ocean:
1. I'm reading but this isn't my only game and I've got a lot else on my mind. I'm sorry if some thing slip.
I don't support the massclaim, but I guess we'll go along with it right now--it should be clear why I oppose it as soon as I claim, but I'm against mass-claiming D2 in a closed setup because

giving scum that info is stupid

.
I'll tell you a piece of advice, and this one's important,

Massclaims never break/solve closed setup games. If a game can be solved or broken by Massclaim, then it is a broken setup to begin with.

2. Right on. I was curious why you went for Dier rather than me or Pisskop, who you had a bigger scumread on.

3. I know you wanted Brantz' blood at the time, but when Pisskop joined you gave Pisskop a lot of flak for joining the wagon. Brantz being scum validated pisskop and, even furthermore, Brantz being traitor means that scum-pisskop could not have known that was a bus.

I'm a one-shot sensor.
I'm probably going to die tonight because of that claim, so, y'know, fuck you.
It looks like our bodyguard is dead so if there's another protective out there, I sure would like it.
I couldn't use my power last night because the day did not end in a lynch.
I'd like it if today's lynch wagon was set up well for sensor (IE: no self-voting, I don't wanna be on it, etc).

[Varsoon]

@3Dice: As far as who is lying goes, I think that Pisskop's claim is the hardest to fake claim and Ocean's is the easiest. If you flip town and there's no claimed means of altering Xtoxm's results, we'll have to proceed with the assumption that Xtoxm is lying or that scum's got a means of altering results. We can probably clear Xtoxm between all of our claimed 'investigating' abilities because even if someone isn't lying and Xtoxm is telling the truth, we still have someone's investigate + my sensor.

@Ocean: Because you were giving Pisskop a hard time for Pisskop scumreading Brantz. Brantz flipped scum. Ergo, Pisskop was right to scumread Brantz.

My claim can be easily disproved if I'm lying, though. :/

[Varsoon]

Also, that's what I told you, Ocean.
My role make me instantly dubious of all the other claimed town PRs, especially the investigatives.
I assume that my sensor doesn't technically target anyone so I wouldn't get a result from Koggz.
But still, we

could

have all the roles claimed and scum could just have some really powerful roles to counterbalance ours.
So it's like
why massclaim?
Oh, right, to direct the scum kill
gg

P-EDIT: Then I misread the convo. I thought you were giving Pisskop a hard time for joining the wagon late/as it was escalating and Pisskop was all "No, Brantz is scummy" and you were all "You probably just bussin him" and I was all, "Man I hope Brantz is scum so Pisskop can be validated in jumping on that wagon and Ocean can stop pushing one of my only good townreads."

[Varsoon]

Xtoxm, can you confirm how your role works?
How are you even sure you're blocked?
Also, if I was scum, I'd kill you rather than blockin' ya.
Furthermore, it's a bit weird that I make a claim that calls suspicion to the investigatives and then you (a claimed investigative about to cause a lynch to go through based on a claimed guilty) doubles back to scum-read me. :/

@Dierfire: It simply reads that I can scan the previous day's lynch wagon to discover how many players on it were Town-aligned and how many were not Town-aligned. I assumed miller fell under that bracket, but I should actually ask the mod, gimme a sec.

@Ocean: iirc that was a game I figured we had in the bag and then Xtoxm, who was a strong town PR, came out of nowhere and throttled my team to defeat with his claim.

[Varsoon]

@Xtoxm: Actually, given the wording of my sensor role (town aligned or 'not-town-aligned'), I think SK is possible too. :l

[Varsoon]

Also, yeah, lalaladucks could've jailkept Xtoxm or there's weird interaction if Xtoxm's target is Jailkept. /shrug

[Varsoon]

Hey man, massclaim is broke regardless of Ocean dropping the ball.

[Varsoon]

@Ocean: Responding is a catch22. Think about it for awhile and file it away and we'll talk about it in post-game.

[Varsoon]

You insisting on blatantly repeating that info only increases the likelihood that scum will be aware of it and kill/claim around it.
There. You got me to engage you over it, which is exactly the anti-town goddamn thing you've been doing.
The town thing to do would be to stay silent about things and catch scum making a mistake. :/

[Varsoon]

I was also townreading Suzune, for what it's worth.
I also think Koppz is town until proven otherwise.
Dierfire is likely clear regardless of your align due to your claim.
I've got a solid enough read on Xtoxm/lalala, too. If we've got an SK, could be here?
Really, the only people I'm critical of as of now are you, 3DR, and Fuzzy.

[Varsoon]

Also, to get back to Dierfire:

Miller does ping as not-town-aligned on my Sensor.

@Oceanwind:
My annoyance is more at you making it blatantly clear that waiting for another VT claim was what we were doing.
Even with 3dice 'slipping' as it were, insisting on talking about it only brings more attention to it.
Ergo why I said further discussion is a catch22.

[Varsoon]

I use mine at night.
Likely to keep Jailkeeper from being able to protect me? /shrug.

[Varsoon]

My sensor is pretty much rendered useless now that it is claimed, though.
Best possible situation is that I sensor a wagon and get no scum results on it,
but that's almost impossible now.

[Varsoon]

Right now I'm unsure if you're a roleblocker claiming Jailkeeper or if you're SK (or even if we have an SK) but your posts don't feel that scummy (like you're not really pushing an agenda imo), so I'm mostly just making role-based speculation but otherwise you're more town than scum for me right now.

It's useless as far as it won't be a surprise. If we can actually co-ordinate who is on the lynch wagon, we can at least get results that will create a smaller lynch pool than the entire playerbase.
The problem is that one of two things happens:
Either we co-ordinate and use my role and it's just okay but doesn't really hurt scum much
or I am able to give scum a really hard time and then they'll just kill/block me
That's what I mean.

[Varsoon]

okay.jpeg

[Varsoon]

Not saying you're an SK, though. I'm not going to be sold on the SK thing until 2 kills show up in one night and town doesn't claim one.
Can't wait 'till someone's like "You fake-claimed sensor in NY185 too homeboy"

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Is it wrong that I had to go back and check because

I wouldn't put it past myself to fake-claim sensor as scum

?

Spoiler: But I didn't srs

[Varsoon]

I just save the images, I dunno what that's from if anything.

[Varsoon]

It's functional.
I had to force it to stop trying to auto-update and I never use the App front-end thing.

[Varsoon]

@Pisskop: Well dats cool
I guess NAR makes you resolve after Xtoxm?
Or is it like
He might actually be a VT before you made him vanilla
So xtoxm's result is still not matching the claim maybe anyway?

I'm actually confused more now.

[Varsoon]

If it's humid enough, 35c is kinda chilly.
We'd get as low as 10c most winters in Louisiana and while we usually wouldn't have a freeze all winter, damn it was cold.

[Varsoon]

><
I just realized that you meant you 'vanilla-copped' him, not made him vanilla.
I was reeling
I also thought you were talking about 3ds instead of Max.
I really need to sleep or get some coffee or something okay

[Varsoon]

*cough*
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bus_Driver

I don't really believe we have a bus driver PGO/bomb rolling around, but I'm also shite at setup spec.

[Varsoon]

Pisskop's giving you a hard time because Bus Driver is an actual role on Mafiascum.
'Army Veteran' or 'Veteran' is also sometimes used in place of 'Paranoid Gun Owner', which is similar to what Fuzzy is claiming he does, although he's claiming abilities that are more usually named 'Bulletproof Bomb'.
I think that's a pretty loaded up role
I gotta assume the BP Bomb part is limited shots? I dunno/recall if fuzzy claimed that? Even then, it's still like
Non-consecutive Bus Driver, Bulletproof Bomb.

[Varsoon]

oh no wait went back and re-read it he said they both die
nevermind that's not so unbelievable.

[Varsoon]

Still, goddamn the swing in this setup if that's real.

[Varsoon]

Mod: If the scum team was reduced to just the traitor being alive, what would happen?

[Varsoon]

I dunno, man.
You're playing with Varsoon.
That dude's, like, the most competent.

That's a bit of a conclusion to jump to with regard to Fuzzy's role, imo.
I personally figured that he was just recollecting what his role did (Bomb) and remembered that it reflexively killed people and so he claimed Veteran because that's another name (and probably one he's more familiar with) for the role that reflexively kills people.

As for the trolling bit;

The fact that he called it "bus driver" when in normal terminology it is a bomb is hilarious. I think Skull is just screwing around with us.

kinda implies you don't know that Bus Driver is a role.

I'd like it if we all just kinda had fun and played the game without getting elitist about it, y'know?

[Varsoon]

I apologize if I've been ephemeral or difficult to play with at times. I don't put myself in the position of making moves that are outwardly impressive and explaining myself unless I'm an SE or IC for a newbie game.

In this game, I've felt very comfortable. It's akin to sitting down at a table with several friends (and many of these players are players I like enough to call my friends). I don't put on any airs or try to grandstand beyond having fun. That said, for people who aren't so familiar with my play, this sort of approach might not seem effective. I used to 'suit and tie' my game up strongly, hoping to make impressive plays and seem like a serious competent player. Mafia's not an interview, though. I don't really feel the need to impress anyone. That said, in assuming a casual play-space, I might make the mistake of not displaying proper etiquette for some folks.

So, again, I apologize if I've been less than awesome. If there's anything I could do to make your experience more worthwhile, let me know.

[Varsoon]

Oh, pisskop, you riddle the Sphinx with such a quandry;
"How can it be worthless and delicious at the same time?"
Have you not eaten fast food? Surely, you've become intoxicated and, with roaring hunger, slammed down on a Big Mac and though, "This is heaven."

I don't mind being judged. I've proven enough chummers wrong in my short time here that I'm cool with being looked down upon. Number one rule is to have fun; number two is to win. I can always do the first. It's pretty wiz when I can do the second, but I don't pretend to be better than I am.

[Varsoon]

I'm always looking to improve, for sure.

I see the game as a game; we're all here to win, but the reason why we are

here

is because this is a site that is fun, competitive, and well-run. This site is conducive to having 'good' games of mafia. When it comes down to absolutely having to choose, I'd rather take a fun loss (where I surely learned a lot to improve on) than a boring/frustrating win. I feel as though it is my responsibility as a part of the community to foster strong bonds and make games that I am in fun for people to play. When a game isn't fun, people don't want to play. I want people to think of the site as a place where they can have fun, make friends, and play some great games of mafia. To that end, I do focus a lot more on having a good time than winning.

That said, don't think I'm just messing around here. I'm trying to win and I'm putting forth an effort, I just don't get so caught up in that effort that it strips the game of its fun.

As a note, pisskop can be really difficult to butt heads with, but that's his temperament. Rather than frustrating him and making a fuss, I think it's more telling (of both his alignment and his motives) to let him carry on while shouldering the japes. I used to entrench myself heavily against players like Pisskop (and Orcinus and RECKONER) and it only ever hurt the game I was in; Scum loved it because it caused huge distractions. I'd occasionally lock horns with scum putting on an abrasive act, but then I wasn't really catching them for the right reasons since the rhetoric is typically null.

[Varsoon]

But, yeah, basically, if you're not having a fun time, I wanna know what I can do to make this better for you.
If shifting gears in my level of involvement is what you want, I might let you down, as I'm about to take another trip out of town and won't have time to do much but mod my upcoming mini-theme.

@Pisskop: Especially since you can come out of it looking town-as-fugggggg

@Mod: There is a flipped Traitor in this game (Brantz). If Brantz was the last surviving member of his team and there were no other factions outside of town left, would Brantz be able to deliver factional kills or would his team lose? Furthermore, does Brantz' rolecard indicate that he can be recruited to his team in any way? Was Brantz aware of who the other members of his team were?

[Varsoon]

@Xtoxm: Who do you think the blocker could be?
I figured there'd be enough false positives and negative utility to make my sensor not worth it. It seems kind of counter-balanced off of the traitor/miller there, offering an interesting bit of misdirection and potential info for the scum team.
Imagine my sensor returning a two-scum hit on a wagon that none of the non-traitor scum were on. :3
If there's an SK in the setup, then my sensor can get non-town on 5 players, which I think pretty much makes it strongly unreliable as it will always yield close to a 50/50 pool and almost never an all-town pool.
I doubt SK because that'd make this one of the swingiest g'damn setups ever (Suicide bomber, multiple investigates, sensor, lovers, etc).
Also, given that I'm one-shot and at night, the Jailkeeper and/or Roleblocker could just squash me if I haven't already been killed.

[Varsoon]

Oh, also, yes, puttin' that on hold.

[Varsoon]

I tried playing some Necrodancer because I like Roguelites and I like Rhythm games (oh boy so much so) but I haven't really gotten big into it.
I heard you could put your own music in it, though?

[Varsoon]

Trust, Pisskop isn't trolling.
Dude's also town.

[Varsoon]

That's fair,
Alls I'm saying is that if you end up in LYLO with Pisskop, vote the other dude.

[Varsoon]

I'm actually totes at a loss.

[Varsoon]

@Ocean: If your action fails, what response do you get from the mod?
Is it the same response you got back on N1?
'cus your action should have failed if laladucks is telling the truth.

@lalaDucks: What Ocean said;
Why didn't you go for Koggz?

@Mod: How would you resolve the following hypothetical situation; a Bodyguard protects Vanilla town. Another player uses a Jailkeeping ability on the same Vanilla town player. Scum directs their kill at the same Vanilla town player.

[Varsoon]

Oh, yeah, I am assuming that the Jailkeep blocks from all role interaction at night. That's actually what I'm used to.
Hm.
Actually.
Everyone should probably qualify exactly how their roles work because shorthand isn't doing us any favors here and y'know closed theme game y'know massclaimsrubbish

[Varsoon]

I'm aware. It's a Doctor that also prevents the player from taking any action on the night they're protected. It's usually used to include a protective role but to hinder 'Follow-the-XXXX' strategies.
I'm used to a variant that makes the player targeted essentially commute, if that makes sense.
That's why I asked that players be explicit about their roles.


@lalala: It should only block actions taken but not reflexive/passive stuff. Someone doesn't stop being a miller because you jailkeep them. You should probably also ask the mod if your jailkeep does block a reflexive action such as reflexive friendly neighbor.
I can understand wanting to stop the killer but it's probably easier to stop the kill-target (because you can wifom either or if there's a no kill right), and you could have confirmed Koggz' claim maybe.

@pisskop: Yeah okay we'll see when the game is over if it really helped us or just got us in a heap of trouble.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

The winning one
skadoosh

[Varsoon]

"Moist succulent Ocean's butt"

I'mma pass.

[Varsoon]

@3Dice: I am refunded in most cases.

@Ocean: If a player's behavior bothers you enough to disrupt the game, tell the mod. I'm very laissez faire about player behavior; the line for me is when insults are directed solely at players rather than play and it disrupts about a page. If someone says one off-handed thing, I let it fly. I've got a tougher skin about things and I also don't want to make mods force replace otherwise engaged players solely because of offended sensibilities. It's a stressful game; people are going to say things that aren't nice sometimes. It only stresses the game further by forcing players to replace out over time. There's a line, and I surely allow a lot more than many others might, but I also have yet to run a game that has been sabotaged due to foul play.

[Varsoon]

I'm not 'enabling' his trolling.
He got a warning from the mod. It's over. Drop it.
If you want to join a hugbox community, got to tumblr.
We play a game about lynching people here.
Grow a thicker skin and play the game. Your complaining and wanting to lynch me over policy is MORE distracting and does a larger disservice to the game than Pisskop droppin' some japes.

[Varsoon]

If you are scumreading pisskop because of an element of his play that's consistent across all of his games, you need to sit down because class in session.

[Varsoon]

@Ocean: Oh, cool, glad to know you're not voting me over policy rather than play.
Stop trying to strain it otherwise, too.
You've got some weird elitist thing going on, so sure, I'll concede to you that I'm probably enabling 'disruptive' behavior and I'm a horrible piece of shit. My title is Scatman.
But Pisskop has been warned by the mod for his behavior, which I will say did cross the line at times; that's why he was warned.
We can discuss this after the game, but you insisting that my position on POLICY influences my position in THE GAME is scummy as fuck and I'd prefer if (if you're town) that you divorce these two concepts entirely.
I'm not going to talk to you any more about POLICY because you can't seem to find the line between THE GAME and POLICY, so let's just solely focus on THE GAME at hand.
Sound good?

[Varsoon]

Ocean, stop trying to shoot down town from co-ordinating a wagon that's good to sensor.

[Varsoon]

Everyone gives their reads;
We insist that all of the most scum-read players get on the wagon.
I stay off the wagon; my inclusion on the wagon only limits the info we get and there's not much reason to want my results if you believe I'm faking them anyway. You've got to trust.
The wagoned player stays off their wagon. They'll be lynched, so they should not be self-voting as it only inhibits town info. If they're town, it's pretty much against their wincon to self-vote.

My reads:
TOWN: Pisskop, Dierfire, Koggz
UNSURE: Ocean, Fuzzy, Xtoxm (these depend on flips of my scum really)
SCUM: 3Dice, Ducks

[Varsoon]

@Ducks: One of you must be scum. That's why you're both there. It's setup spec, bro.

@Oceans: Well then let's co-ordinate with our claimed investigatives to figure out who we want to sensor out and who we want to keep off the wagon.

[Varsoon]

What makes me the most scummy, Oceans?
Also, whoever criticized my reads as being easy neglects that almost everyone else has the same reads while I notably have Pisskop and Fuzzy in different pools that most you cucks.
So the reality is that my reads are actually far more divergent from the norm.
Or do you want me to scumread practically cleared players like Dierfire?
Chumps.

[Varsoon]

Ocean, STOP talking about POLICY in the middle of THE GAME.
You can discuss POLICY with pisskop after THE GAME is over.
Chummer.

[Varsoon]

Fuck varsoons role. Id be much more impressed if he had claimed vt and used it.

You can thank Ocean for pressuring me really hard to out my role despite my misgivings about it.
Obviously my role works better when it's not out in the open like that.

VOTE: Ocean

Dude's probably scum, fuggit.

[Varsoon]

varsoon that vote is disgusting

what about you thinking that me or 3dice is scum?

Check my reads posts, homie.
Actually, just read the game, homie.
Actually Factually, just close the game and read a book, homie.
Educate yourself, g'damn.

@Ocean:
You saying that you researched clerical information in previous modded games does not make your claim any more believable.
If anything, it indicates that you've put in effort to go through Skullduggery's other games in a vain attempt to 'prove' your role isn't fake.
Town wouldn't need to do that, as that's

really

digging, but scum wanting to justify a fakeclaim might do that early in the game or even now that the pressure has been put on.

My vote stands. You're scrambling under pressure and trying to divert attention to your justifications.

[Varsoon]

@lalala: I'm saying that the answer to your question about why I'm voting the way I am and what i think about my reads has all been laid out already. Read the thread. It's been posted within a page or two of you requesting the same info. If you can't retain that, then take a break from the game or something. I gave you a funny video to lighten the rather tense mood around here, 'cus, man, it bothers me that things are so tense. We should all be working together. <3 <3 <3

@Ocean: Yes, I am illiterate. It's a socio-economic issue; I was born into a class and country that could not provide proper education for me. Stop oppressing me. It's really insensitive to be so cruel to someone who is literally less fortunate than you. Consider others, homie.
Also consider that you brought up Skullduggery's previous game's ability formatting and then immediately spent a paragraph talking about how this fits into how your role is worded. It's almost as if context indicates that you're

using

this info from Skull's game to talk about how your claimed role is worded the same; thus lending legitimacy to your role. You then go on to indicate that you should apply the same strata of judgment to Dierfire but you draw no conclusions from doing so. This is what I got from your post. Again, I am illiterate and the only school I have attended was in the Bayou swamps of Loosey-anna, where I learned how to crawfish and hunt gators, getterdone. So I may be wrong in reading your post because I'm a filthy mongrel of a human being who can't even comprehend language, but then again, you might also just be doing the thing I said you are.

But then you'd have to admit that I'm right and you're being offensive to those less-fortunate and edumicated such as myself; and from I hear you Ivory Tower types don't like admittin' yer shortcomin's unless it's on a suicide letter or somethin.

[Varsoon]

Don't hold it against me, Ocean. I'm fucking retarded.

[Varsoon]

Looks like I fail at even being a coon-ass.
Dayum.

[Varsoon]

It's almost as if Ocean is making this game insufferable with useless pursuits, emotional appeals, and other dreck.
If you don't feel encouraged to produce content, that lies on us.
What can I do to help you get in the game, 3DICE?
You're kind of on the stand here. I know you've stuck to claiming vanilla, but what are your thoughts right now on the game?


@Ocean: I have a very paralyzing reading problem and I would prefer if you wouldn't try to scum-read me over something I have no control over. Are you going to vote me for my type 2 diabetes next?

@lalala: I'm voting Ocean because:
Ocean's role is the odd one out of all of our investigative roles.
Ocean's flip will give us lots of information regardless of alignment.
Ocean's play has been very unhelpful, leading the game down pathways that discourage players from engaging in both short and long-run.
Ocean has been consistently pushing me for what I find to be floundering reasons; typically we disagree in approach or I'll say something insulting and then Oceans will vote for me. It's awkward.
I don't want Oceans in the game anymore. Lynching Ocean eliminates a voice that is frustrating, anti-town, elitist, and boring.

[Varsoon]

When people suspect me for poor reasons, I'm going to call them out on it.
I've been scumread at some point by every player in this game, I'm willing to wager.
I have not responded the same to all of them.
I would appreciate it if you'd not generalize my play in such a way.

I listed reasons why I am voting for you. Your made-up reason that you laid out is not one of them.

I am legitimately illiterate; if you don't respect that and you think I'm using it as some sort of rhetorical prop, you're just oppressing me even more.

Your role is a strong investigative role that stands out from all of the other weaker roles in this game.
Have you answered this already (remember; I can't read)--does your claimed investigative give you a negative result on Millers?
I mean, obviously, you're going to say it does, because that's in-line with every other claimed investigative so far, so it's a dumb question to ask, because you'll say it does regardless.
I just wanna know in the case we do get a town flip from you.

You're the messiah of this game, Ocean. I wish I was as literate and capable as you. Please lead us to victory.

[Varsoon]

3Dice has contributed pretty much everything we could ask at this point, right?
We've got reads, we have a full claim, we've got what he thinks, etc.

In regards to you looking up information, here's my situation on that:
You have a role that makes you look very town (pro-town investigative) but is easy to fake.
We are at a gamestate after massclaim that makes us doubt all of our town's claimed investigative power.
You then proceed to start looking up ways that your role might be arguably weaker.
You then post this in a way that also justifies the precise wording of your claimed role, offering added legitimacy to the claim.

In my eyes, you are under pressure to prove that your role is real.
Most town players tend to just insist on their role being real.
You didn't do that; instead, you specifically went to other games to look up how your role could be weaker (when it's been established weaker roles are more believable at this point).
This comes after you make sure to reiterate how 'Macho' makes you weaker, when it really doesn't (we have a maybe-jailkeeper and a bodyguard, so the Macho bit only really seems to interact poorly there).
I can strain my eyes to see some sort of town motivation in trying to give more credence and understanding of your claim, but in the case of not knowing how your role would interact, why not just ask the mod privately? You bringing a link to prove it in the thread means that it is important that you prove to us that your role might have some shortcoming and that it is worded in-line with previous games modded by this mod.
It's far easier for me to see why scum would go to that effort, especially scum that's potentially on the chopping block, especially in your case as you're so active and you have this constant

compulsion

to produce content.

Occam's Razor n stuff.

Also, are you seriously saying that BRantz making a big overt gesture to you implies you're not scum? He could easily have been bussing or, more likely, been attempting to get your attention to let you know he's the traitor.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

I'm glad that you're reaching out to me and focusing more on what feels critical and at hand.

I'm not saying that I don't see how you could be doing what you claim there, Oceans.
I'm saying that there's scum motivation in doing that.
Obviously, regardless of your alignment, you'll argue what you are now arguing; that you looked it up for pro-town reasons.
As town, it lets you inform the game about how things might work and how to approach investigates
As scum, it lets you make your roleclaim seem more believable and gives town something seemingly ancillary to discuss
So the fact you make that point is good, but it's still null to me, if that makes sense.

I also do not trust any results unconditionally from claimed Investigatives.
The only innocents are bodies.
This is especially worth taking heed to in this game, since we know there was a miller and we know Skull has used false positives like Godfather in the past.

[Varsoon]

10/10 post, Dier.
So we should be lynching 3Dice right now instead of lalalaladucks?

[Varsoon]

I think it's foolish to believe you can set up a foolproof plan for victory this early in the game.

All of Dier's winning contingencies are based around if 3dice is scum.
Basically, if 3dice is scum and we lynch there, we should be able to win.

Also, yeah, it was brought up; what if someone's vote is always going to be frozen?
Doesn't that propel us to LYLO faster?

[Varsoon]

@Koggz: Since the massclaim, multiple players have expressed that all of our claimed investigatives are likely not true; it seems like too much town power.

Mafia wiki says that sensor is "painfully overpowered"

Sensor is overpowered.
I'm a one-shot sensor.
In a setup where Mafia has a fucking day-kill.
In a setup with false-negatives for sensor.
Stop acting like me being a 1-shot sensor in this setup is anything like being an unhinged sensor in a normal setup; the only common thread is the word 'sensor'. Insisting that my claim is less likely to be true because of worthless logic like this should be grounds for suspicion (of competence).


I'm far more comfortable with a 3Dice lynch than a lalaladucks lynch.
If I'm blocked by ducks for it, ohwell.

[Varsoon]

Is it a blatant over-reaction to point out when another player is

literally wrong

?

You were referencing that the wiki says Sensor is overpowered.
My backlash is because I made the assumption that you were making the connection that because I am a kind of sensor, my claim is therefore an overpowered claim.
Sorry.

Why did you even bring up that the wiki says sensor is overpowered?

[Varsoon]

3Dice, I already admitted that I am illiterate; what about Mana Khemia would indicate you're not scum here?

So if you were trying to lend credence to my claim being fake by using the logic that sensor is a strong role (as stated on the wiki), why is a 'blatant over-reaction' to express how my role is functionally different than Sensor as described and discussed on the wiki page?

[Varsoon]

What makes me scum, Fuzzy?
Entertain me.

[Varsoon]

1) I've gone over why my role is not OP. Furthermore, why not doubt one of the other claimed investigators? Why am I singled out among them? If anything, my 'result' is far less direct than any of theirs.

A) Which wagon are you talkin' about? Everyone I've voted for, I've voted 'cus I either wanna pressure 'em or lynch 'em.

C) So you're letting scum bait you into tunneling me even more? Mkay. If I had vote-freezing powers, I'd use them on someone likely to scum, because then they would be less likely to be in my sensor-group, which makes me much more likely to pull a group of all-town. Don't flatter yourself; you're not my number one scum pick. If I was scum with vote-freezing, I'd probably hit someone who had a vote that I felt really threatened by.

Dude you realize if Dice is ACTUALLY the only VT, then Xtoxm's result is wrong, which makes it highly likely that lala or Xtoxm is scum, right?
Also, yes, a lala scumflip practically conf-towns Xtoxm unless they're like on a team together and playing the most awkward gambit.

[Varsoon]

I'm always here for you, Ducks <3

[Varsoon]

If you want me to be on the wagon that I'm sensoring, sure.
VOTE: 3Dice

[Varsoon]

I don't have enough meta experience with you to really differentiate your 'town' and 'scum' posting styles.

I was just blown away 'cus I was thinking you were saying I was a regular sensor. That'd be busted. I'm just one-shot.

[Varsoon]

I don't think one game from each is a large enough sample size for meta, really.
I've got various reservations about your slot, but right now your flip is most likely to lead us to victory.
So if you are town, what do you think we should do next?
Also, what are your reads as of now? Have they changed much since the last list you gave?

[Varsoon]

I agree; I think that if there is scum between you and lalalala, it's lalala.
I'm only willing to comprimise lynch you because a lot of my townreads are pretty sure lynching you is the right thing to do and I'm honeslty not that great at town; I'm willing to trust them.

I also think Ocean's role is super out of place.
Probably a fakeclaim, /shrug.
Especially given the macho modifier.

[Varsoon]

@Pisskop: I'm putting most of my faith in you and Dierfire. Dierfire advocates lynching 3Dice. I thought you do as well?

@3Dice: I'm really unsure about xtoxm given the fact I think you're town and therefore his result on you is probably whack.
Which indicates laladucks is the liar here but I wouldn't put it past scum-xtoxm to kick up some RB WIFOM.

Eh actually fuck it follow muh heart
VOTE: lalaladucks
And then I'd lynch Xtoxm next.

@Ocean: Ducks feels very hands-off and kinda joking in this game. Doesn't strike me as trying to really chip away at the game or anything.

[Varsoon]

Don't give me shit; thank the mod for giving me an unclaimable role or some shit.

[Varsoon]

Only reason I could see is that Xtoxm doesn't have a great reason for leaving your wagon and when I joined your wagon it seemed it would be the lynch wagon, which means I'd get a sensor result there, which may end up with Xtoxm showing up negatively on that sensor result.
The solution (voting me to avoid being on the sensor'd wagon) and calling for my lynch is kinda awkward.
But that's probably all me being really paranoid?
I dunno.
Does anyone else see that?

[Varsoon]

I think the only acceptable lynches today are lalaladucks, xtoxm, and 3dicerolling.
3DR flipping town lets us know that either Xtoxm is lying or there is a roleblocker in the setup.
lalaladucks could be the scum blocker, but flipping town lets us know that Xtoxm is lying, the blocker (if there is one) is still out there, or that 3dice is scum.
Xtoxm could be lying, but flipping town lets us know that his results were truthful on 3dice and that there's probably a blocker out there or 3dice is scum.

Why haven't we considered a redirector scenario?
Didn't Fuzzy claim busdriver?
Couldn't that have altered Xtoxm's results? If not by changing who his target was, by changing lalaladuck's jailkeep to targetting Xtoxm?

[Varsoon]

I think giving fuzzy a pass just because his vote is disabled is a mistake to make. Not just for the reason you stated, but also because if he was scum, he could have had a team mate use that sort of a power on him (or used it on himself) to make himself look more town and give an excuse for not being active with his vote.

[Varsoon]

I'm not any good at mapping strategies and I also don't trust all the claims fully here, so I think it'd be a pointless practice for me to do that.

[Varsoon]

So we need Koggz and Ocean to vote for Ducks.

[Varsoon]

Just when I thought Oceans was on-page with me, they want to throw away all the work we did today to turn around on a last-minute Varsoon wagon;
of course you want to test the waters first, too. I can at least respect Xtoxm for actually pitching a vote rather than trying to soundboard with town. :l

[Varsoon]

Oceans

want to test the waters

was this intentional

Yes.
Also the fact that Oceans would lynch me over you or Xtoxm is appalling.
Dude won't even give a day to do my sensor thing.
I WONDER WHY THAT IS HUH
I WONDER WHY OCEANS WANTS TO EITHER LYNCH ME OR NOT BE ON THE WAGON I SENSOR
WOOOOWEEEEE I CANT GUESS WHY SOMEONE WOULD WANT TO AVOID THAT

[Varsoon]

Yeah okay, but that dudes town and when lalala roleblocks me it'll be 10/10
Either that or Xtoxm is lying/thirdparty/theactualblocker/idunno

VOTE: 3dice

[Varsoon]

Yeah okay, but that dudes town and when lalala roleblocks me it'll be 10/10
Either that or Xtoxm is lying/thirdparty/theactualblocker/idunno

VOTE: 3dice

How did read on 3dice change all of a sudden? I accused you of being partners and then you voted him out of nowhere. What happened to your insistence that you be off the wagon?

Hm? I thought I've made it incredibly clear that I want a lynch out of lalalaDucks/Xtoxm/Oceans (probably in that order of how much I want them) for awhile.
Furthermore, I thought I also made it pretty clear that I thought that 3Dice is town but I also believed that his lynch was good because
-I could just be wrong, I'm humble enough to acknowledge that
-His lynch yields strong info regardless of his flip

As for insistence on being off the wagon, that's another one you seem to have missed. Since Dierfire made it clear that they want me on the wagon, I've decided that it's okay for me to be on the lynch wagon.

Finally, when you started raising all these flags to lynch me, I wanted the day to end with, y'know, a lynch that actually progresses town rather than a lynch

that I know is on an actual investigative

. The choice seemed clear to me; I could either let you continue to mouth off with terrible ideas that pull away from the wagons we've spent ALL DAY discussing and deciding on, or I could end the day with a wagon I felt was optimal but not the best.

Compromise, homie.

[Varsoon]

Everyone on the wagon was town.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Xtoxm
Ayyyyyyy

[Varsoon]

Dude specifically found arbitrary reasons to not be on the wagon at the end of the day.
Couple that with his 'guilty' on 3Dice when I've got an inno there.
Couple that with the fact lalala wasn't stopping/RBing him.
Out of everyone off the wagon, he's my biggest suspect for those reasons.

[Varsoon]

I do too, I thought that was the plan.

[Varsoon]

Actually
UNVOTE:
For some reason I thought Oceans was off and 3Dice was on
With 3dice off the wagon, I can't really go full ham on Xtoxm.

[Varsoon]

But yeah
OceanWind, pisskop, and Koggz are all absolutely town
or there's false positives and I commit seppuku.

[Varsoon]

My posting elsewhere was catching up with my modded and soon-to-be-modded game, scumbag.

Am I lynched? Is that it?

Swapping them wouldnt give altered sensor results.

Varsoon, are you claiming the mod explicitly sent you a 'all town' result?

Yeah, the result was that all on the wagon are town. There were no 'non-town' on the wagon. Take that for what you will.

I figured my lynch was inevitable for a few reasons, mostly my claim, which needs to be checked anyway.

[Varsoon]

What about if I'm town, though?

[Varsoon]

Was I really hammered?

VOTE: Xtoxm

[Varsoon]

I'm just a mystery guy with suspicion all around me, ey.

[Varsoon]

/shrug
At least we tried.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I really should've strong-armed the kills.
Sorry, Fuzzy. Wanted to give you some more autonomy and not be such a controlling scum lord.

I really hate when town mass claims and it's like "OH WE ARE ALL INVESTIGATIVES OR TOWN-CONFIRMED BY OUR CLAIM THATS COOL TIME TO ROLL SCUM!"
and then they do
:/

That said, good stuff from town, you guys kicked some butt, so yeah~
I had fun. Flavor was very enjoyable, Skull handled this game like a pro.
Despite some setup misgivings and my loss, I'd gladly play another Skull game!

[Varsoon]

Exactly. I knew that, due to our roles, town was likely to have roles that would benefit them in a mass claim.
I'm always against mass-claims in closed setups anyway, 'cus I actually factually hate being on either side of a mass claim that wins/loses the game for a team. It's bullshit, imo.
My sensor claim didn't do me any favors, though. :/

[Varsoon]

Oh, cool! Can I be the gunzerker?
I wanna be the Gunzerker?
Or that guy with nine toes.

[Varsoon]

My advice to Oceans is to relax a bit.

I did scum it up a bit early because I was hoping the bus with Fuzzy would work out or I'd coast 'till end if no one saw me as scum for my scumgame.

[Varsoon]

@Ocean: Oh, I don't mean to say that Mafia as a social thing should mean it's not competitive or fierce.
I see it as a group of friends gathering at a table to play a game.
The group coming together for play is what's most important to me. Yes, I want to win the game. Yes, I might do some pretty underhanded and cynical things to win.
I'm not there to troll or to insult people or anything like that. I'm there to play a game with my friends. Yes, it's a time investments and yes, I take it seriously, but at the end of the day I am playing because I enjoy it and because I enjoy the people I play with because they enrich the experience.

Dude, I'm sure Skull appreciates your feedback. In fact, the favor was reciprocated with honesty and feedback that can help you. <3

[Varsoon]

Oh, I like when the mechanical aspects of a game come together in a way that makes the game competitive, balanced, and engaging.
I enjoy crushing my opponents with effective rhetorical appeals and hunting scum between the game mechanics and my own investigation.
I did mention that I was bummed out that the mass claim weakened the game; but that didn't ruin the game for me because I was still playing with peers I enjoy.
You gave me a challenge and I liked playing with you. Ultimately, you were not a threat despite scumreading me, so do with that what you will.

[Varsoon]

You did not get me lynched. I was lynched because I claimed sensor after massclaim. Xtoxm lead my lynch wagon. I was lynched wholly because of him. The other votes were Fuzzy's bus (which I knew would lead to my lynch and was fine with), yours, and Koggz' sheep of Xtoxm. Koggz did not join my wagon when you were pushing it.

You were not a threat. If anything, you distracted town with your poor and long-winded early push on me and made us look like Town v Town.

I lost the game because my partner played weakly (both in thread and in his kill decisions), I made a poor claim, and the setup was not balanced to favor scum.

You were not very helpful to your team. We left you alive because of this.

[Varsoon]

Furthermore, your attitude bogged down the game and discouraged players from playing.
So that's also part of it, homie.

[Varsoon]

You literally proved on Day 1 that you did not have the charisma or rhetorical prowess to convince people to lynch your scumreads.
This meant you were not a threat as town.
You'd only become a threat after making a claim that cleared you, but then we could just kill you at that point.
You, as a player, were not a threat--your role may have been, but you were not.

[Varsoon]

<3
I'm just giving 'honest advice' like Oceans likes.
I wanna play more games with him, but he needs to become a better player to get more enjoyment from his games :3

[Varsoon]

Have you even read the scum thread?
All of my called kills were ones that would have likely won the game--I can't say for sure because those kills did not happen.
I let Fuzzy make the kills because I wanted to see where he would take the game. I knew this would give us a lower chance of winning, but I wanted to put confidence in my fellow player and let him have what may have been a more enjoyable game for himself. Call this a weakness and I'll agree; but it's negligible.

You did not 'take down' any parts of the scum team. Brantz killed himself and Xtoxm lynched both me and Pisskop. Xtoxm won this game for town.

I'm not 'butthurt', I'm telling it as it is. The fact you're trying to insist you were anything but worthless and a drag for your team is telling, especially when you think that scum's honest explanation for keeping you alive is coming from 'butthurt'.

Actually, sans the investigative roles stacked up, we probably would have won. Investigation PoE is why the pool of lynches was narrowed enough to get me and my ally lynched.

You didn't even catch my biggest scumslip, either. I think Koggz may have, but never quoted it, so, /shrug.

[Varsoon]

Homeboy didn't lead any lynches, except arguably on BRantZ, which did not matter because BRantZ traded 2-for-1.

[Varsoon]

If you want to be elitist and hypocritical about advice, I'll stalk you and join any game you sign up for.
I'd rather you face your weaknesses than run and hide behind a veneer of being a stiff.

[Varsoon]

I don't think you understand; I irritated you on purpose in the game because you pushing against me was a large waste of energy for you and did not help town at all.
I apologize if you think that I was jostlin' your jollies because I genuinely wanted to goad you to respond. It was all a scum strat.

I'm purposefully not going to avoid you in the future.
Keep projecting your insecurities. I know I lost this game, but I want you to admit you're bad.

There's nothing reportable about joining games, homefly.

[Varsoon]

It's all G, Fuzzy. Don't ever worry about kills 'pointing' to players, people will always WIFOM the kill so much it doesn't matter.
You win some, you lose some, you always learn. <3

[Varsoon]

I'm not stalking you literally, weirdo! Gross!
I mean to say I want to play more games with you, so I'm probably going to sign up for any game you sign up for! <3

[Varsoon]

It's not that big of a deal, I'm just razzling his berries.
I don't care that much about the game, it's said, done, and was fun!
But I think we can all agree Oceans is a bit uptight, yeah?
I want him to have fun. <3

[Varsoon]

You can click the report button, but nothing will happen. Signing up for games isn't against the rules.

[Varsoon]

Why don't you wanna interact with me again? We can talk in private chat if you want, as others probably don't want to read more of this back-n-forth.
I just want you to have fun <3

[Varsoon]

I like Pisskop's avy.
I kept Piss around hoping Piss would backfire, but in the end, Piss has good judgment.
I always forget this.

[Varsoon]

Reminds me far too much of this, Pissk:


@Oceans:
I'll only avoid your games if you do two things;
-Talk to me
-Lighten up a bit, man

I'm actually just having a bit of fun at your expense, sorry.
I'll probably actually avoid your games, but you really should chill out a little bit.
I intentionally irritated you a lot in the game, so I apologize if some of that bled over.

[Varsoon]

@Fuzzy: I've run a few theme games, and, trust, people will probably sign up if you advertise the game regardless of the theme/flavor. I've been running themes for fairly unknown/obscure stuff on-site. I think maybe three or four players in my SU large had seen an episode of the show.

[Varsoon]

I also really enjoyed your play, Pisskop.
That's part of why I kept you around. You had sass.
It was also aggrivating town a bit, so that did help muh scum agenda.

[Varsoon]

I really hate when I actually factually claim what I actually have and then it backfires.
I should've just claimed tracker, as that was my third shot ability.

[Varsoon]

Anyway, I'm totally cool with releasing the scum-thread.
Here's the link to our Scum Chat.

[Varsoon]

I will say, should'a killed Xtoxm on N1.
You're too good at catching me and on top of that you had an investigative. I swear.