503: Dead People Have Powers - Happiness Or Destruction?

[Draux]

You know what's even more suspicious than one letter names? =D

Vote: Suspicious Handbag

[Draux]

First Person To Die May choose whether to passage people of their choice to the afterlife (so do you lynch the cop first?)

There's something worrying about this rule. =/

[Draux]

Unvote

Yea, I sent a PM asking a few questions to Max. Either way, a Cop Lynch seems like the way to go at this point. I'm not exactly clear on the details of the "First Person to Die" rule, or the effects of someone being sent to the Afterlife or not, but Lynching a Pro-Town power role seems like the obvious choice. The Cop just seems far more useful than the Doc to me. However, the false-claiming makes this a very risky strategy. If we Lynch Scum instead of Cop first, that could be disastrous. Should there be a Cop counter-claim, I'm thinking we should leave the "Cops" and Lynch the Doc instead.

The Channelers are also a somewhat strange concept. I don't think we want the Town's Channeler to die early on, because then the Mafia would probably sacrifice their own Channeler to completely seal off all connections with the dead, making it much easier for them to win. The Mafia would probably want to get rid of the Town's Channeler at all costs, as this would give them a relatively big advantage over the Town. Something that's also been confusing me are these Neutrals. Is there only one? Is there more than one? Do they outnumber the Mafia? If there's a large number of them, then there's a likely chance that they'll choose to be on the Mafia's side. Since their goal is to survive, and the Mafia's win condition does not state that these Neutrals have to be killed, siding with the Mafia is the logical choice for Neutrals. This could be bad for us.

[Draux]

We have to take advantage of the fact that the Mafia have not had a chance to communicate amongst themselves yet. Scum would probably not try to act on their own without the approval of their Scumbuddies, so in my opinion, a counter-claim at this point isn't likely - but it's possible. And Kilroy, I seriously doubt two Mafia would both counter-claim a power role. Remember, we just need any Pro-Town aligned person to be Lynched first; making it a power role is just a bonus.

[Draux]

Huh? Why would power roles claim Vanilla?

[Draux]

Basically everyone's "plan" is the same or very similar. I think we've all decided that this is the best method of proceeding at this point. And Night_Light, your average Mini would have roughly 2-3 Mafia.

On another note, something just struck me. If we successfully Lynch the Cop today, what would the Scum do once they have a chance to discuss amongst themselves? I thought about this, and I believe the chance that they decide to sacrifice one of themselves is about 50/50, but will rise to almost certain once the Town Channeler is dead. When that happens, they'll obviously want their own Channeler dead to prevent the Lynched Cop from revealing investigation results. So if at this time one of the Scum claims to be Scum, would we Lynch them? Or would we not Lynch them? Would they WIFOM themselves into getting someone who is not the Channeler to claim?

Also, Mafia are not revealed as Mafia upon death. So who would the Transporter (the person we Lynch first) send to the Afterlife? Obviously Nightkill victims will not be sent to the Afterlife, but what about the people we have Lynched? Since Max has kindly taken out the No Lynch rule, we have to Lynch somebody everyday and cannot rely entirely on the Cop. This somewhat worries me. We would have to be very careful on whom we Lynch.

[Draux]

@ Draux: Of course the mafia would like to sacrifice one of their own, but how will they do that? They have no NK until one of them is dead.
About the "No Lynch", I think it does exist in this game. I can recall reading we can vote it. It's actually a possibility in a deadline.

Yes, I believe there used to be No Lynch. However, after a few people pointed out that we could just Lynch the Cop and go No Lynch until he's investigated everybody, Max probably removed that rule. He even added that even if a Deadline should be imposed, there must still be a Lynch.

[Draux]

Huh? We found two Scum already?

I'm not sure what the Mafia were thinking, double-claiming both power roles. They know that neither of those four who have claimed power roles will be Lynched today, so they were probably trying to avoid a power role being Lynched first. The chance that we Lynch a Townie today instead of the one remaining Scum is very high. In my opinion, this was a misplay on the Mafia's part. I think it might pay to try fish out the remaining Scum and interrogate the claimed power roles before we decide on a Lynch. We have yet to hear from Coron/his replacement anyway.

[Draux]

If I must say it (which I don't think I do), I am Vanilla Townie. I haven't claimed until now because I didn't think there was any further need to claim after four people have claimed power roles. I'm pretty sure Mafia wouldn't claim Mafia at this point, neither would Neutral claim Neutral, nor Town Channeler claim Town Channeler. Everybody would simply claim Townie, and the mass claim loses its purpose.

And Ckillor, he was being sarcastic. Whoever is the Town Channeler, please do not claim. I disagree somewhat with Setael's Scum list in terms of the claimed power roles, but I don't think I need to explain any further on that yet. His suspicions for the third Scum seem solid, with my addition of Coron who has yet to post. I also find Ckillor a little strange, but I'll let that pass as Newbieness. Y, you are pointing out details which do not need pointing out, almost like you are fishing. Your posts are filled with illogicality/WIFOM, and there's something about the way you easily agree with other people that doesn't click with me. But more importantly, let's not jump to conclusions as to who is Scum yet. We need to hear from everybody first.

[Draux]

If Neutral claims, the Mafia would kill them for being "confirmed". Then again, the Mafia's win condition do not require Neutral to be killed, so it's arguable.

[Draux]

Hold on a minute. Wouldn't it be better if we actually Lynch Scum today? I don't think the Transporter status is all that important. Think about it. If we get the unclaimed Scum today, and Lynch the four claimed power roles after that, the Scum wouldn't be able to kill us off fast enough for them to win. Also, remember that power roles are immediately revealed upon death, so we may not even have to Lynch all four. The Scum have seriously messed up big time by claiming both power roles. We've virtually won this, pretty much regardless of who we Lynch today.

One problem with this is the fact that alignment is not revealed upon death. If we manage to Lynch the two Scum who claimed power roles first, we wouldn't be able to tell if we have successfully Lynched the third Scum later, since we also need to Lynch the Town's Channeler to actually "win". A way around this is to either try and Lynch the third Scum before Lynching the claimed power roles (we will know when we have done so because they'll start killing), or Lynch the Town's Channeler before all else. The former is very risky - as it may take us a long time before we correctly Lynch the third Scum, and the latter is also very risky - because losing connections with the Afterlife this early on might not be very beneficial for us.

All of that is of course based on the fact that there are only three Scum and not more. Any thoughts?

[Draux]

First of all, I'd like to say that I am not a Neutral. I'm interested to hear how Spambot and Setael came to this conclusion. And Y, I think you miss my point. If we do as I mentioned, power roles become an unnecessary factor. Look, at this point, the Mafia cannot kill us off faster than we can Lynch them. The small number of dead Scum wouldn't affect the majority Lynch if we stick to a pre-arranged plan. If we actually do manage to Lynch the third Scum today, we can then proceed to Lynch the four claimed power roles, followed by the Town Channeler and we win. Get it? The Scum cannot kill us off faster than we can Lynch them. WE WIN. The problem is that finding the third Scum today won't be easy, therefore we might need to utilise the Cop later on. But still, Lynching the third Scum today is A VERY GOOD THING, as we would never need to enter into that situation. Is there any flaw in my argument?

[Draux]

@Setael: Well, I mentioned that the entire plan (which suddenly occured to me one morning) was on the basis of there only being three Scum and not more. I guess it's possible that there are four Scum, but I seriously doubt a Mini would have 1/3 of it's players as Scum. =/

[Draux]

So Satael will be the transporter?

I don't' like that idea since I clearly believe him to be scum.

Is there a reason we are making a scum person the gatekeeper?

Well, I've already made my point about Lynching Scum first (thus making them the Transporter), but the general idea here seems to be Lynching Town first. I'm pretty sure Setael is Town judging from her posts. I seriously doubt Scum would help the Town as much as she did. Well, if that's what we're going with, I'm fine with it.

Vote: Setael

[Draux]

Setael, we discover power roles immediately upon death (if I remember right), so there's no need to wait for Nightkills and such.

[Draux]

Hmm, that wasn't how I interpreted it. =/

Mod: Can we get a clarification about what happens when we Lynch a power role?

[Draux]

The thing is, whichever of the two is the real Cop knows for certain that the other one is Scum. I'm not exactly sure what we're hoping to achieve by getting these two to "make a case" against each other, since it's already clear between themselves which one is Scum. Technically, that's all the proof the real Cop needs to convict the other claimer as Scum. But they can't exactly convince us that the other is Scum by using "I know because I'm the Cop" as a reason. "Making a case" against each other isn't as useful as it sounds, as there may not even be a case at all. Instead of getting them to make back-and-forth accusations against each other, I propose that we use the good old Scumhunting technique on them ourselves. We should pressure Kabenon and Kilroy into answering questions (or something like that), and hope that the Scum cracks along the way. Maybe getting the claimed Docs involved is also a possibility. Good idea?

[Draux]

I'm 99% sure Setael is Townie. I don't think the setup is so evil that the actual role of our Transporter would be hidden. Whoever we Lynched Day 1 would have their full role and alignment revealed, in my opinion. The Mod has said that you are a Townie.

Mod: Setael IS a Townie, correct?

Scum cannot make night kills until they are in purgatory, so we are trying to not lynch them yet if we can help it because

our doc and cop will then be vulnerable to NKs

.

Huh? Wouldn't we want our power roles dead? =/

2 - There has been some debate about whether neutrals should claim vanilla or neutral. I am of the opinion that they should claim vanilla because mafia only has to kill off the townies in order to win, so if they claim neutral, mafia will have no motivation to NK them and their NK pool is therefore narrowed.

But you're saying that from a Townie's perspective. Using your logic, Neutrals would rather claim Neutral, no? Don't encourage them. Wait... >_>

Anyway, I agree that Kilroy is more likely to be the Scum than Kabenon. Something about the fact that he strongly insists that Spambot is Scum is fishy to me. In post 203, he also basically contradicts himself on multiple occasions (concerning his 'plans'). However, Kilroy was also very eager to initiate a mass claim, something I don't think Scum would be happy about. But Kabenon hasn't really done anything to show up as Scummy, so my best bet is that Kilroy is the Scum.

[Draux]

I was referring to the bolded part of your post.

...

our doc and cop will then be vulnerable to NKs

.

I'm saying that if we mistakenly Lynch Scum first, it would be beneficial for us should the Scum idiotically decide to Nightkill our Doc or Cop, because then they save us the trouble of having to Lynch them. Of course, I agree that the Cop should be Lynched before all else, but I was just pointing out that this is

not

the reason why we wouldn't want to Lynch Scum first.

Skitzer, you're quick to make decision? We need to hear more about what Kabenon and Kilroy have to say.

[Draux]

Interesting... mafia NKs only send people to purgatory. So yeah, you guys are right. It doesn't really matter if we kill mafia or the real cop first because if mafia NKs the cop or doc, all that does is send them to purgatory, where they can then start using their power role.

What I was saying exactly. Thank you.

But they wouldn't do that, obviously.

Basically, anybody that shows up as vanilla on the lynch scene should just be sent on, to be safe.

That'd be everyone except for three people (given that the Channeler shows up as Vanilla).

Also, you say it bothers you that he's voting Kabenon... we will probably know Kabenon's alignment shortly - don't you think the last scum would be motivated to be on the wagon of the real cop?

No. The Scum would try to get their fellow CopScum Lynched before the real Cop. I'd think that a useful Cop is the last thing the Scum would want at this point.

Vote: Kabenon007

puts him at Lynch -1 (if I count correctly). I'm not comfortable with hearing nothing else from Kilroy, but I'm 67% sure that Kabenon is the real Cop. I still think we should hear something from Kilroy before someone hammers, though.

[Draux]

Vote Count:

kabenon007- 4 (draux, kabenon007, Seteal, Skitzer)
kilroy8675309- 1 (kilroy8675309)

Not voting (7): ckillor, death_omen, Night_Light, Delicious Goldfish, Random Acts, Spambot, Y

7 to lynch.

Y and Spambot are also Voting for Kabenon, unless there are Unvotes I missed. DeliciousGoldfish has a point, but it's not relevant until the Scum can kill AND the Cop can investigate. Ckillor, you make little sense. I don't understand what you're trying to get at. So, does anyone else have anything to say? I'd especially like to hear more from Skitzer (Coron's replacement). Death_Omen and RandomActs seem to have vanished as well.

[Draux]

Night_Light, we'd want to Lynch the actual Cop first so that they can investigate people and the Scum cannot Nightkill yet.

[Draux]

Kilroy, if you want to convince us that you're the Cop, you could at least try and post something actually, well, convincing.

[Draux]

You lie, Kabenon.

Setael has three periods before she decides what to do with Kabenon, right? Let's just Lynch Kilroy, see what the Mod reveals him as, and decide to send Kabenon to the afterlife or not based on that. Or we could just try and go for the DocScum today, but that's not such a brilliant idea.

[Draux]

My choice of whether to transport someone or not will not be revealed until the third phase, when they are sent on. I have been instructed not to post my choice in thread.

Do you have to decide this upon death, or anytime between the three phases? Either way,

Vote: Kilroy8675309

is the best way to go right now.

[Draux]

Haha, so, looks like you finally came around, did you? Well, I have to say, Y, I'm surprised you don't believe me, seeing as how you are my scum buddy. I would have thought you would have not gone right for the throat with your first post. Oh well.

Vote Skitzer

Haha. Nice try, Scum. Kabenon's just trying to make us reel with WIFOM. I wouldn't listen to him.

[Draux]

mmm...not very convincing, Kilroy.

vote: Draux

Not very talkative. Seemingly innocent. Safe bet.

Umm, Skitzer, do you understand our current situation?

Spambot makes a good point. I'm actually not so sure now whether we should Lynch the Cop today or not. It all depends on the chances that the Scum will Nightkill the Spiritualist this Night, and possibly the next. Should we Lynch the Cop today, they have a 1 in 5 chance of hitting the Spiritualist this Night, and that becomes 1 in 4 the next Night. The question is, should we sacrifice Cop investigations to protect our Spiritualist for sure?

Something I'm worried about is why they Nightkilled Night_Light. She was clearly willing to be Lynched Day 1, indicating that she probably wasn't the Spiritualist. I'm not sure whether they didn't realise that or there's some other reason behind this.

Either way, we don't need to be hasty in Lynching the DocScum yet. We know one of two people is the DocScum, and it doesn't really matter which order we Lynch them in because Scum will still get the same number of Nightkills anyway - considering that we decide to Lynch the Doc even when the DocScum is dead. I never really considered that at least one Scum needs to be in the purgatory for them to Nightkill. I just assumed that as long as one of them is no longer alive, they can kill. We'd need a Mod clarification on this.

Anyway, I should

Unvote

for now while I think about this.

[Draux]

Now, let's think about this. The scum isn't necessarily motivated to kill the Town spiritualist right now, because it also cuts off any dead scum.

I disagree. Killing the Channeler would be the Scum's top priority. Dead Scum would soon be sent out of the game soon after their death anyway. They'd want to Kill the Channeler as soon as possible.

[Draux]

I'm still here, in case anyone thought I died in real life or something.

@ Spambot: If we had Lynched the actual Doc yesterday, your plan would've worked. However, we do not know who the real Doc is, and other players were not willing to take the risk of Lynching one of the claimed Docs.

By my calculations, we should aim to Lynch the actual Doc today. The order in which we Lynch the claimed Docs doesn't change the fact that the Scum would still get a Nightkill, so we might as well try to get an extra Doc protection tonight. We need to hear something from Kilroy as well, if he's still around. In my honest opinion, I think there are only three Mafia in total, including the Scum Spiritualist. A four versus eight is almost unheard of in Mafia.

[Draux]

Huh? Deadline already? =/

I'm not really sure who the real Doc is. RandomActs seems to have vanished a lot recently, and I can't gather much from him. Spambot is more actively helping the Town, but then again, so was Kabenon. Kabenon's interactions with Spambot leads me to think that RandomActs is the Doc, but Kabenon might've set it up like that so we would think Spambot was his Scumbuddy. Either way, that's WIFOM so we'd have to take a different approach.

[Draux]

I think there will be no night kills until we kill another mafioso. Two reasons:
1. Dead means in purgatory, and Max said they can kill only while there's a

dead

mafia.
2. The killings were maid by a ghost. Kabenon disappeared in the killing scene, so he can make no more kills.

I disagree with this. I'm pretty sure being in the afterlife counts as being 'dead'. I know Max only referred us to the PMs on the first page, but I assume that Scum would still get a Nightkill even if none of them are in purgatory, but one or more of them have been sent out of the game.

[Draux]

They cannot kill people can only use their powers when dead (i.e. in purgatory) sorry for any confusion on the matter

In that case, we've easily got this game in the bag. I seriously doubt one Scum can out-Lynch the entire Town, especially with a Cop running about. For the sake of keeping our Cop useful, we should definitely Lynch the Doc today so he can protect the Channeler every Night. To the Channeler, just don't claim until we've verified today's Lynchee as the real Doc.

[Draux]

just to get things rolling

Vote: randomacts

i get a much better feeling from him that he is the doc, though if it ends up being liek how we all though kabenon was the cop im probably wrong. i would like to see more from both claimers, possibly prods

I

seriously

think we should wait for Spambot's replacement before jumping to conclusions. I realise there's a deadline, but "getting things rolling" by casting semi-educated Votes is not the way to go at this point. Hopefully, Max finds a replacement before the deadline.

[Draux]

This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Max, do you think Spambot's replacement will turn up before the deadline?

[Draux]

Well, no he probably doesn't seeing as he hasn't quite read through the thread properly.

[Draux]

I suggest you

finish

the proper re-read before all else.

[Draux]

I see where you're coming from, Claus. I'd completely forgotten about the Mafia Channeler. Firstly, I believe that Kabenon was not the Channeler or Max would've told us otherwise. What I'm worried about is whether the third Scum or the DocScum is this Channeler. We should avoid cutting our ties with the Afterlife until our Cop has found the third Scum. If the third Scum is the Channeler, then we're all good. However, if the DocScum is the Channeler, we shouldn't Lynch him too early. Now, we have no idea which one is the Channeler, and we'll probably never find out. The Cop is a very important role in finding the elusive third Scum, and I don't think we should do anything that might disable him prematurely. I'm not really sure how to go about this situation.

[Draux]

It is unlikely that the scum spiritualist is one of the ones who claimed doc or cop. He's probably the 3rd, hidden scum.

Remember, they did not have a chance to communicate with each other on Day 1. We can't safely assume that the third Scum is the Channeler.

If we cut the ties to the afterlife, we lose our cop, but scum loses their nightkills.

So you'd rather rely on our Scum-hunting abilities than an investigation role? Your strategy does have a good point, but I'm not sure if it's the best way to go for us.

[Draux]

I'm really not comfortable with this D_O wagon. Are you taking a stab in the dark as to who the third Scum is? I realise that D_O is currently the Scummiest-looking player in the game, but I'm just not able to conclude that with the certainty that you people are displaying. Or are you saying that it's okay that we Lynch a Townie today? Look, if we Lynch one of the claimed Docs, we have a 50% chance of hitting Scum, and the other 50% is the Doc. If we Lynch some other random player, we only have a 20% chance of hitting Scum, and the other 80% are people whom we do not want Lynched. I understand the idea of Setael's 'Lynch third Scum and then DocScum', but I seriously don't think it's worth the risk to Lynch D_O today considering the odds. Are you that positively sure that D_O is Scum?

[Draux]

I'd still really like to choose from among the unclaimed but I'm no longer convinced about D_O and I

really

don't want to mislynch.

My point exactly.

Though I'm worried that the D_O wagon has already auto-Lynched due to the deadline.

[Draux]

That plan was long overdue, Ckillor. Lynching any more pro-Town players at this point would be disastrous. I thought that it would've been an easy win for us, but after some recalculation it seems I was wrong. The Scum could very well still win this. We can't afford any more Mislynches. The best thing to do now is

Vote: RandomActs

.

[Draux]

Well, he's Lynched now. I would've preferred Day to be a little longer, but oh well.

[Draux]

kilroy can provide us either another confirmed townie or the scum's name.

Either that or he investigated Y.

Anyway, we could've won this for sure if Kilroy has actually done something useful the previous two Nights. I hope you've got some useful results for us today, Kilroy. At worst, our chances of winning are 33%, and at best it is 100%. This situation is only slightly in our favour.

[Draux]

well then i will claim as the spirtualist. and unless he wants to give up, draux will counter claim. it sucks that we are at LyOL because my plan at the beginning was to hopefully live until all the scum were found and have it at the end where we need to lynch the spiritualist to win and i wouldnt have to claim yet. because dying sucks.

Yeah, of course you're the Spiritualist. The Scum Spiritualist, that is. I think I

will

counter-claim, thank you very much Mr Scumperson.

[Draux]

Vote: Ckillor

[Draux]

This post is really fishy to me. After the confirmed cop confirms that RA is scum, DG is still doubting it. Was he trying to prevent a RA lynch? Is it possible there are 2 scums left? (DG and ckillor)

Then we would've lost already. As scummy as DG sounds, Ckillor is the real Scum. Now he's just whining about how he 'messed up'.

And RandomActs, kindly shut up and leave. Mmkay?

[Draux]

Setael, you saw how 'helpful' Kabenon was when after we Lynched him. Do you seriously think RandomActs would be anymore helpful?

[Draux]

No, I'm still here. It's just that there's not really a much of a case against Ckillor, except for the fact that I'm the Spiritualist therefore he is Scum. I could just go through the thread and list all the Scummy things he's said, but I doubt that'd be very helpful in convincing you. I can comment on the cases presented against me though, if someone is willing to summarize them. It seems that Claus has quite a lot of cases against me. =/

- One is the bid for the transporter spot: It would surprise me if the scum did no bid at all for the transporter spot. Random Acts seems to be interested in it in posts 69 and 173. In 173, he specifically mentions Draux, Y and Night Light, without anyone in particular asking him. I find it probable that he would try to pass at least one of his scumbuddies as town, when pointing the "townie" finger at so many people in the beginning of the game.

Firstly, I believe that me and Night_Light were established as the most Townie-looking players by a few people before RandomActs mentioned this, although I'm not sure why he added Y into it. Secondly, I made a point on Day 1 after both counter-claims that it'd be better to actually Lynch Scum instead of Town. If we were to Lynch Scum and then Lynch all four claimants, the Scum would not be able to kill us off faster than we can Lynch them. Simply put, if we had Lynched Scum on Day 1 we would've won already. I was slightly against a Townie Lynch on Day 1, but went along with it anyway since the Town didn't seem to get me (partly because they suspected a fourth Scum, which was possible but highly unlikely). I'm not sure if the Scum realised this or not, but it would've been very bad for them if the third Scum had been Lynched on Day 1.

[Draux]

@ Y: No, it would've been a good thing. Don't you get it? We would've won. It wouldn't matter if power roles were transferred to the Afterlife. As long as we Lynch all four claimants, all the Scum would've been dead before they could take out the Town. How is this a bad thing?

And I couldn't exactly say "Hey I'm the Spiritualist, don't Lynch me today so the Scum can Nightkill me when they get the chance LOL" could I? I hinted that I didn't want to be Lynched on Day 1, and Spambot and Setael even suspected me a Neutral for it. I don't recall ever saying that I was willing to be Lynched on Day 1. It's not exactly within my power if people decide I was a good choice for the Transporter. And it would've been a bad thing if I actually outright claimed I was the Spiritualist at that point.

@ Claus: No, I didn't leave any breadcrumbs. Not intentionally, anyway. I really didn't want people to suspect me as the Spiritualist. You interpreted my 'Channeler don't claim' statement as a breadcrumb, but it was meant to be a ruse so that the Scum wouldn't think I was the Spiritualist.

[Draux]

Good job Town. I almost had you.

[Draux]

The setup was very interesting. I can see it as somewhat balanced, but I'd say it was the double-counterclaim on Day 1 that lost it for us. Had Kilroy been a little more useful, and the Town didn't decide to Lynch D_O (What was the purpose of that again?), we would've lost far earlier. I would rather have had the real Doc become the Transporter and two Scum still in the shadows. Max, if you should make a Dead People Have Powers 2, I suggest the roles should extend from just your average Mafia, Cop, Doc. Maybe include some roles with strange mechanics?

[Draux]

Oh, and how about giving the Scum a little time to discuss strategy before Day 1?