Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[shaddowez]

Hey Infinity, PV, farside, Cakez, Wisdom....I think that's all I know here.

VOTE: Pere

He's likely to lurk the entire game anyway, so may as well start here.

[shaddowez]

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

I'm town so he has to be scum :p

I don't know about anyone else, but you sold me with that argument!

[shaddowez]

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

[shaddowez]

Nope, just wanted to up my post count.

(I'll give a real answer once mine has been answered)

[shaddowez]

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

They're pretty much the same.

Infinity

, here's your answer: I tend to be nitpicky about semantics. One of the phrases is more assertive than the other, which often times comes from town. The other leaves a little bit of room for maneuverability, which often times comes from scum. In this case they are pretty much the same, but the phrasing can still be indicative of things.

[shaddowez]

I wouldn't say frequently, but it is something I've seen. It's definitely possible that it's personality related (for example, I highly doubt I'd ever catch someone like Thor this way), but it is something I look at when things could have been phrased slightly differently.

[shaddowez]

What makes you think that Tammy isn't someone like Thor?

I meant particularly in posting style. Thor's posts, in the games I've been in with him at least, are almost entirely full steam ahead. That's why I used him as an example of not finding a non-assertive post.

[shaddowez]

...snip...
Kagami is spending all his time trying to sort specifically me, which is odd to me. But he still seems town for now. Gut town lean on Tammy.

VOTE: wraith

Two things. First, if you have a read on a particular person, shouldn't you pursue that and/or pressure them? What's specifically odd about trying to sort out one person, especially without knowing their motivation for doing so? Second - why discuss other people in your post, and then vote Wraith with no other mention of him in your post?

This is an awfully strange 180:

Whats strange about it? The reason im townreading Infinity happened after those initial posts and actually have to do with how Infinity handled those posts.

I dont like this.

Widom beat me to it. There were a number of posts in between, and I can easily see how Infinity's responses could have caused a change in a read. Are you suggesting that people's reads shouldn't change?

@Nacho: Can you explain what you were trying to accomplish with your questioning of shadow?

I'm more interested in why he seemed to be soft defending Tammy and focusing on things not related to this game specifically. Granted I brought up Thor and other people's posts, but that was to illustrate why I was looking into something here.

@MOI: V/LA until Sunday the 13th.

Townreading Inf for his early play, don't see the scum motivation in his play. I think he's immediately scumhunting and trying to get the game going.

VOTE: kraska

Is this an RVS vote? You haven't participated yet, say you like Infinity, and then randomly vote kraska. If it's not, please give some explanation.

[shaddowez]

@mod

- V/LA for standard weekend duties.

Someone asked me about scum reads earlier, I'll try and get a post out a little later, I hope to not have to wait until Monday to do so.

[shaddowez]

Catching up now. Kagami, do you want my scum reads as of Thursday, or do you want me to catch up and provide them as of now?

[shaddowez]

Just noticed it was kraska that initially asked me, not Kagami. What don't you like about me commenting that I'm catching up?

[shaddowez]

Catch up post is just about done, so here's my reads prior (mostly off memory, I really need to start taking notes). I'll do an up to date one once I've done my catch up post.

Town - farside, Wisdom, kraska
Leantown - Kagami, Tammy
Leanscum - Cakez, Infinity, Nacho
Scum - Bulba, Wraith

Everyone else was null due to lack of content or not being able to get a read.

[shaddowez]

A lot of this is old since a lot happened, but I'm going through everything.

to be clearer: Making a post without being over the top tryhard is not a playstyle adjustment, therefore arguing "yeah he wouldnt playstyle adjust so you dont have a point" is bullshit

i dont see how infinity was being "over the top tryhard" i think it was the opposite his posting emanates nervousness/wariness. but nyway ur point was he would have stopped probing people for answers to useless questions...which is still bs considering the timespan

I don't like "you can't possibly believe this you're scum" arguments, do you often find that you can find scum in that way?

Can you please explain what you mean by this? I don't see that type of argument from either of them, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Shadow's opening post looks motivated by "being safe." The initial part of his rule-of-three 147 is reasonable, but I don't like the wisdom bit and the final part also feels limp-wristed to me, as if the point were to mention an buddy in a negative light.

I also think the townreads on infinity aren't terribly well justified, and am suspicious that three players have it. I would guess that exactly one infinity-defender is scum regardless of his alignment.

What's the "rule-of-three"? Also, how do you feel I was being safe in my opening post?

shadow's play in the purge mafia came off as "playing safe" and he got scumread for it...im waiting for more content but i think shadow laying low and playing safe isnt particularly scummy for him

pedit: theres pere too i think

This post makes me hard townread kraska for reasons that I feel would be detrimental to town to say right now.

There's a difference between playing safe and having intent to play safe (especially in RVS).

I'm still not sure what you mean. How does any vote count as "playing safe" in RVS?

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

Explain? This seems like a ridiculous reason for voting.

Do you really feel that lack of content (ie fluff) is a bad reason for scum reading somebody? Isn't that a large part of what scum have to do, make stuff up and look busy?

i didn't really like her response to my questions but i'm also not sure if she knows any better

Please refer to the pronoun under my avatar.

cakes' case is very shallow

I'll add on an agree to this.

Also

cakes' case is very shallow

yep

It was the 6th page when I made the vote. Were you expecting a large case? His ISO was like 10 posts at that point.

You're right, when you made the vote it was. However, you were asked to explain it well after then, and you didn't add much substance to it.

shhh its ok it seems ive been chosen to be the designated person far thinks is scum and tunnels all game long its ok ive accepted my fate
anyway i was kinda half serious too. this is town farside

Are you saying this purely based on her tunneling?

Alrighty then...

@Nacho: Give me your thoughts on Wisdom when you can. I'm not sure if I'm looking at 1305 Wisdom here, or if this is the amicable scum Wisdom I've been seeing a lot lately. I'm not sure how much I'm going to be around over the next few days, but I'll try to do my best with anything else you want to talk about.

@Wraith: Why'd you stop with the Mr. Fluffy talk? I found it strange in general, but I found you stopping to be kinda abrupt.

Vote Shaddowez

I could go Wraith too, but I'm not sure it's as good a vote.

This is your second post, and it's practically a naked vote for me. Why do you feel I was a better vote than Wraith, who you also didn't address except for asking about Mr. Fluffy.

I didn't like him going after surface reasoning. His play just felt shallow overall, and I just didn't get the feeling that he was actually looking for scum.

So, you do realize I never actually said she was scum, it was just something I look out for? Also, if you want to ask anyone about me and semantics arguments you can ask Wisdom about Episode 1.

...snip....
I understand the scum reads on Wraith, but I was going to vote shaddowez until I realized I couldn't be the cool kid to start that wagon. So, I'm just gonna stick on Nacho for a while so you guys can question me about why it's there and when I'm going to change it because it's always fun when that happens.

You wouldn't have been the first person on the wagon...I believe there were already three votes on me. If I'm actually a scum read of yours, why wouldn't you vote me regardless of where on the wagon it was?

Okay let's take a look at shadow's short ISO
...snip....

I don't like semantic arguments. That's just me. Semantic arguments are a scumtell to me. That's probably because I strongly prefer VCA and logical/data-based arguments than attempting to analyze word choice or emotional expression. I think it's absolutely impossible to accurately analyze someone's emotional state over the internet.

See my comment above about my semantic arguments.

[shaddowez]

Town - farside, kraska, PV
Leantown - Tammy, Wisdom, Infinity, Nacho
Leanscum - Cakez, Kagami, Leon
Scum - Bulba, Wraith

(Details to come probably tomorrow, Mondays and meetings suck)

[shaddowez]

Yep, you caught me.

[shaddowez]

I'll start by apologizing and saying I suck.

I've tried keeping up, so some of this is off the top of my head. I agree with Wisdom's choice of the kill, although the results aren't what I would have hoped for. I was scum reading Bulba, and was going to make a case next time I was on, which is now irrelevant.

I'm not sure I buy Leon's role, at least not as a "town-aligned" 3p. I find it much more likely he's an SK with a fakeclaim that makes it sound less individual win. Regardless, I disagree with Wisdom's plan (and no, not just because either scenario has me dead - if my death gives info to town, so be it), but because I think it gives way too much power to one person - leon. Ultimately he gets to choose whether or not he's going to listen to the lynchee, and even if it means his death he could severely hurt town with a PR shot.

As for the multiple claims, I agree that Tammy is the towniest of the claims, but that lines up with my reads in general.

Regarding my vote, I thought I took it off RVS but was waiting for a VC before I voted. Grey hasn't done anything to improve my read of Wraith's slot, so since there was a recent VC I'm confident doing this.

VOTE: GreyICE

[shaddowez]

By some of this, I meant most of this.

[shaddowez]

That's not my plan. He doesn't listen to any lynchee. He just shoots who we decide right now.
What you're referring to is Gray's plan.

My bad, like I said going off of memory. That I approve of more, and gives me even more reason to like my vote.

[shaddowez]

Lying coward. Won't even vote Shadow when he's your "second scumread". Leon and shadow. Me and shadow. Where does your vote always end up? FOS Scum, Vote town. Or in Leon's case not-mafia scum, which to mafia is the same thing.

Wisdom's voted me multiple times now...

[shaddowez]

I opppose Grey's plan because it leaves your shot to one single person. I'm fine with Wisdom's plan where there's a group choice for who you shoot.

If you're actually a third party, SK or not, you can hurt us if you manage to hit a PR, but can absolutely help if you hit scum. I'm willing to take the chance to let you live for one night and see how it plays out

[shaddowez]

Kagami

- Technically it could be, but my understanding was that it was the lynchee's choice if town or leon's choice if scum. Which leads to this:
a) I don't like the idea of

any

one person having that choice, including myself
and
b) since I don't trust leon, the thought of him making the shot if the lynchee is scum bothers me.

I'd rather have a group decision regardless. It's basically another lynch, and since there's still a majority, even though scum will have a say it may not be enough to divert the shot away from a scum member.

[shaddowez]

Good game all - scumteam, sorry for being so terrible.