Mini 1886: Accounting Mafia [Normal] [GAME OVER]

[Accountant]

VOTE: Bork Bork

I've been an Accountant for years and I can confidently say that those dot things above the letter o are a sign of embezzlement.

[Accountant]

Oh, right.

VOTE: Accounts Payable

Nightless is better.

[Accountant]

I haven't read the OP yet but I think we vote for the set up before we RVS

Then how do you know you vote for the setup first?

[Accountant]

Accountant are you scum?

Nope. Are you?

[Accountant]

VOTE: Accounts Payable

No answer to #13?

[Accountant]

That makes no sense. Why not vote Accounts Payable and go "okay, I voted this setup because..." and then out comes the meaningful discussion and possible alignment indicative statements.

Besides, in 13 you claimed you hadn't read the OP, not that you hadn't read the OP thoroughly. Like, to be clear, I don't care about you making a bad wording choice or forgetting to write "thoroughly" in your original post. Only fools think that sort of thing is a scumslip. What I'm concerned about is the fact that you don't seem very motivated to advance the game state despite claiming you do. Like, you say you made 15 to make me bugger you, and then complain that I'm buggering you. I think it was fairly clear that I was trying to poke you and start a conversation, and you basically told me "sorry, I don't want to talk to you" while complaining about how I don't talk to you enough. What's up with that?

[Accountant]

I disagree. Someone

pointedly

refusing to answer questions in RVS isn't trivial at all. Also, I think setup voting here is NAI as fuck. I expect most of the playerlist to be voting based on personal preference rather than because they think X setup is somehow more scumsided or townsided than the other - and I expect a player who does figure that kind of logic to say so explicitly in the post that they were voting the setup.

[Accountant]

just wanted to kick up some dust

What do you think RVS is, Gin?

[Accountant]

I expect most of the playerlist to be voting based on personal preference rather than because they think X setup is somehow more scumsided or townsided than the other - and I expect a player who does figure that kind of logic to say so explicitly in the post that they were voting the setup.

Why would scum!gin, if he found the more scumsided setup, say so?

He wouldn't. He'd vote for that and claim personal preference - but this is a dead lead, so the possibility of this is discarded from my mind. Like, I'm not a good enough scumhunter to be able to tell town!Gin's "it's just a personal preference" from scum!Gin's same line, so that line of questioning is null to me.

[Accountant]

why is nightless preferable? I've never played one

I don't like spending 48 hours doing nothing.

[Accountant]

*makes scrunchy face*

Blehhh.

VOTE: Cash

Someone please come up with an argument for AP townsided because I love nightless games

[Accountant]

Accounts payable is effectively 9:4 mountainous. Let me mention at this point that 11:2 mountainous has an expected town win rate of under 40%. Now add that scum has a oneshot kill on top of that?!? I don't care how good you think you are, you're effectively voting for town loss out the gate. Neighborhoods have a very negligible power for town. And anyone who thinks the lover-izing pairs things or gladiate thing gives town power needs to look at any of Fakegod's Dance themes. Protip: Town suicides and scum laughs as they win even sooner.

Every single one of you fuckers had better start talking right now; because not ALL of you can be the scumteam... And yet you voted for a ~33% or worse town win rate.

I don't bother calculating setup winrates. I just vote for the one I like playing best.

[Accountant]

I mean yeah I got heated a little bit. But I figured everyone did their due diligence and looked at the setups in consideration BEFORE voting, because you already should have your win condition. I for one rather enjoy not sabotaging my own wincon before the main game even begins. That's like RVSing when the actual win is on the line. Would you be similarly taken aback if I blew up at somebody for RVSing the day before lylo?

I didn't, because I assumed the mod did HIS due diligence and made sure the setups were equal, and I suck at judging setups anyway.

[Accountant]

Talking about skipping RVS. I don't like how quickly you got so serious. Accountant followed suit, sure. But that's Accountant.

wat.jpg

Why is being serious scummy?

[Accountant]

I'll just try to solve the game.

Three posts later you sheep a reasonless vote on me.

You're no better than Kuroi.

[Accountant]

Prematurely ending RVS is bad

Why?

And yes, I expected the setups to be equal.

[Accountant]

VOTE: Pine

Hey, Pine, how come you're V/LA but have time to post memes? Wouldn't it be better to gamesolve if you have time to post in the thread? You were a far more active gamesolver as town the last time I played with you.

PEdit: You're proving my point even more there.

[Accountant]

And yes, I expected the setups to be equal.

No one with the knowledge Accountant has of mafia would assume this

Why not? All the setups I play in are balanced. Therefore, it stands to reason that the setup for this game is also balanced.

[Accountant]

And the Pine push sucks

How so?

[Accountant]

VOTE: Pine

Hey, Pine, how come you're V/LA but have time to post memes? Wouldn't it be better to gamesolve if you have time to post in the thread? You were a far more active gamesolver as town the last time I played with you.

PEdit: You're proving my point even more there.

Because I'm a hypocrite and a mafia junkie. I'm so tired that I'm giggling at the word "Doggo" but I'm still awake and hitting my mafiascum bookmark whenever I sit down.

Give me your read on Gin.

[Accountant]

Why do YOU care what his read on you is?

[Accountant]

TIL reasonable assumptions are insufferable

ok

UNVOTE:

[Accountant]

VOTE: shannon

choo choo

[Accountant]

Accountant, do you know n_m's meta by any chance?

No.

[Accountant]

The food tell sounds like BS. I think Pine is town.

[Accountant]

On a re-check, not as town as I thought. I think I was giving him too much credit for trying to do an early sort of Gin - it's too easy to fake. 136 is weak townread for the simple fact that it would be trivially easy to claim that shannon or I are scum for whatever reason. Instead he claims he has no real reads, which mirrors my read of the game at that point.

[Accountant]

I still think the food tell is BS

VOTE: Pine

I'd like to note for the record that I feel weird that my voting decisions this game have been steered heavily by hito/cabd and I'm not sure how I feel about this.

[Accountant]

You're probably town for bothering to point out the better setup and making us vote that.

[Accountant]

Gin, ok but there's some WIFOM involved there with such an obvious tell

Why would town Pine have motive to do a personal scumtell of his then use WIFOM to justify it?

[Accountant]

Do you think that town!Accountant would

not

vote Pine/sheep hito and cabd?

[Accountant]

Second Aside: Accountant prefers non-gendered pronouns.

Like Math, I've given up correcting people for it, at least in games. Way too distracting.

[Accountant]

VOTE: Pine

Are you going to be like this the whole game?

[Accountant]

Why hasn't be been WotCed out if he's like this?

[Accountant]

Not everyone has the same idea of what is healthy though.

[Accountant]

Not everyone has the same idea of what is healthy though.

/sigh was @ this

i guess this is the part where i'm told everything is relative so i can't judge anything

/raspberry

No. I'm telling you that if you think Infinity is faking their attitude about the gamestate purely because you don't understand why they'd be unhappy with it, then you havw to understand that they might see it as healthy from their pov.

[Accountant]

Who has experience with N_M and can tell me about his scumgame?

[Accountant]

So, uh, why is their tone simulated then?

[Accountant]

Accountant, do you have a read on me?

Not a strong one. You fall into that curious "I have no reason to read you either way but your posts are coherent and have reasoning so I put you as a weak townread" area.

[Accountant]

I don't like this. This is a useless WIFOM that hurts town more than helps them.

You don't seem to understand what I meant. Gin said they had badfeels about me because I was sheeping cabd and hito and presumably that is something scum does.

That is true. If I was scum, I'd likely do it. But equally if I was town, I'd do it - so I'd do it no matter what. But didn't just take my word for it. Think about it for yourself. When presented with strong reasoning for Pine, isn't it natural for town me to vote him?

And if it's something I do as all alignments, then it's NAI, yes?

[Accountant]

I love you, N_M.

No love for any of the other people on the wagon? Why N_M in specific?

[Accountant]

Townreads on cabd and maybe accountant and gin

If Infinity is scum, FoS Accountant, extreme weak FoS Gin.

Why the differing FoS strength?

[Accountant]

Why isn't accountant pushing a policy lynch or trying to sort NM if truly concerned about a lack of independence here?

1) It's impossible to sort NM with the posting he's done so far and everyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. Also not responsive to verbal prodding or other attempts to make him easier to sort.

2) I'm not gonna policy lynch NM while my scumread is right there.

[Accountant]

Well I have scum reads on Accountant and Gin (to some degree). So if they're scum, I'll probably join you on Infinity.

(Given everything stays the same.)

This post makes no sense.

[Accountant]

kuroi....

might be scum

Yep.

[Accountant]

I don't like this. This is a useless WIFOM that hurts town more than helps them.

You don't seem to understand what I meant. Gin said they had badfeels about me because I was sheeping cabd and hito and presumably that is something scum does.

That is true. If I was scum, I'd likely do it. But equally if I was town, I'd do it - so I'd do it no matter what. But didn't just take my word for it. Think about it for yourself. When presented with strong reasoning for Pine, isn't it natural for town me to vote him?

And if it's something I do as all alignments, then it's NAI, yes?

How is just as important as words until VCA.

What does this mean?

[Accountant]

Wrong. NM is obvtown.

Talk to me about this read.

[Accountant]

Some things are NAI but for the manner a player chooses to do something.

To ridiculously oversimplify. Posting in English a lot is NAI for me. Posting in english a lot to disrupt communication is scummy.

I do it as both alignments NAI is surface level dismissal and a bit wifomy.

Then Gin can go ahead and tell everyone how the manner in which I sheeped cabd and hito were scummy. But I was pointing out that sheeping them isn't inherently scummy.

[Accountant]

Why do you care?

I want to resolve inconsistencies.

[Accountant]

it's the manner in which you do them.

Talk to me about this.

[Accountant]

Please clarify which parts don't make sense to you.

Titus says:

Suppose Infinity is scum. Then Accountant and Gin are likely scum.

You say:

I think Accountant and Gin are scum. Therefore, if we say that they are, then I think Infinity is scum and would wagon him with Titus.

This represents a logical inconsistency. Titus argued that Gin and I are possible scum if Infinity is scum because Infinity townread us - but the same logic does not apply in reverse; ie. I don't understand why you think Infinity is scum if you think Gin and I are scum.

[Accountant]

Accountant, there's a difference in going *It's early game and I'll sheep these guys and vote with them because 'they've shown to be townie'* and *It's early game and I see people who I think are pretty town voting someone so I should go investigate myself*

You did the former and just acted like a blind sheep, add onto this that the tell Hito was referring too, you thought was BS.

1) The food tell is BS. I didn't vote Pine based on the food tell; I voted Pine based on the point about distancing from the vote that hito made.

2) The thought process was "It's early game, I have no strong reads, someone comes up with a good argument on someone else, I think it's a valid argument and I'll add my vote to it." I don't sheep players; I sheep arguments. Good arguments. Tremendous arguments. I sheep the best arguments.

3)

I'd like to note for the record that I feel weird that my voting decisions this game have been steered heavily by hito/cabd and I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I may be a sheep, but I'd like to think I'm not a blind one.

[Accountant]

It's the additive property. If 2+1=3 that means 1+2=3. (I'm probably using the wrong principle, but hang on.)

Titus said if Accountant and Gin are scum, Infinity is probably scum.

So that means if Infinity is scum, Accountant and Gin are scum.

One person's alignment in this game is not dependent on another's.

Okay, let's walk this through. Titus thinks that if Infinity is scum, Gin and I are scum. Why? Because if Infinity is scum(she argues), then his townread on me and Gin are because he is scum buddies with us.

Now, suppose that Gin and I are revealed to be scum, but Infinity's alignment is unknown. There is no reason for that townread to be one scumbuddy townreading another as opposed to a town member townreading scum. Do you now understand?

[Accountant]

[Accountant]

Yeah nah not feeling this response Accountant. That's not how a townie would respond I don't think.

Go on. We're all waiting to here why that's not how a townie would respond. Or are you just blowing smoke up my ass?

[Accountant]

Because N_M acted the exact way I'd expect him too. He's my strongest town read because he's so transparent. I can predict his every move.

I'm gonna trust you and titus here. Hopefully you 3 are not the scumteam

What about them invites so much trust that you're willing to follow their unexplained reads?

[Accountant]

There's scum in Accountant, Pine, Kuroi, Bork.

Why Bork and not AA?

[Accountant]

I'm liking accountant a little less. I want to know their reads

[Accountant]
[Antihero]
[hito]
[Infinity, Gin, Cabd]
[Titus, All Alone, Bork, NM, shannon]
[Kuroi]
[Pine]

[Accountant]

Why anti so high?

1) Good, active engagement
2) Tone is really town and really hard to fake - sort of a combination of "I don't care what you're thinking, I'm going to go ahead and try to work out my own reads" and pushiness coming from town that have no strong reads

[Accountant]

I'm not used to this sheepiness from you accountant

Were you expecting me to respond to this, or...?

[Accountant]

I want to know whether you usually sheep a lot or a possible reason for you sheeping in this game and not others

Idk just when someone plays in a way I'm not expecting I wanna know why

This seems pretty blindingly obvious to me. I'm sheeping opinions because it seems to me like the opinions are correct and will, when advanced, help town win the game. There's no other reason for town to have an opinion unless they think it's correct.

And since I'd say this as either alignment, that kind of question is a dead lead if you want to sort me.

[Accountant]

I'm liking accountant a little less. I want to know their reads

[Accountant]
[Antihero]
[hito]
[Infinity, Gin, Cabd]
[Titus, All Alone, Bork, NM, shannon]
[Kuroi]
[Pine]

Okay I'll bite. Where is your null line set?

The Titus line

[Accountant]

This argument below seems so clinical and abstract, it doesn't read how a town response would. In appealing to logic so coldly, it comes across as fake. Also, there's the admission that you'd do it as scum as well. This post is not so much a denial of being scum as it is you saying 'yeah but I'd do it as town too so don't scum read me for it'. That doesn't fly with me.

Well, I think - or I like to think that I think - in clinical and abstract ways. I'm not sure what makes you think that I would be unclinical or warm as town but not scum. There are tons of extremely clinical town players - Magna and Thor are two off the top of my head(there are also many extremely unclinical players, like KainTepes or Riley Cake; the point is that all players are different and applying a hard tonal tell to everyone is a doomed idea). I always appeal to logic in mafia games - after all, mafia is a game about logic.

Can you explain what's wrong with the thinking that if I would do something as both alignments, it's wrong to scumread me for it?

[Accountant]

I'm more concerned about the apparent lack of sleep Accountant has had.

?

[Accountant]

I was playing video games in the meantime, because, y'know, it was the afternoon over here. o.o

[Accountant]

@Infinity: "Off" isn't a read, it's a word so vague as to be near meaningless. What exactly is off? Which post gives you the strongest sense of offness?

[Accountant]

I'm currently catching up.

[Accountant]

As if this moment, I'm starting to think it was actually townie for N_M to say he learned nothing. Something about the brutal honesty even under scrutiny gives me town vibes.

You don't think it was easily faked?

[Accountant]

Like if I was scum trying to claim something was a reaction test and someone called me out on it why would I not just say I learnt nothing? It's an answer that can't be disproved and gives town no information.

[Accountant]

Who "pushed a lot" for a pine lynch? Hito I guess?

Kinda hard to push an absent slot

Yeah, it's easy to push an absent slot. Now, stop throwing yourself a pity party and push scum if town.

Cabd's been pushing Pine.

Can you quote a Cabd post and go "this is what I think town Infinity would post/would like to see from Infinity"?

[Accountant]

But do you actually have a substantive disagreement with my logic in 708?

I'm currently reading through Titus vs Infinity and my eyes are starting to glaze over.

[Accountant]

You'd think if Pine was scum, there'd be some semblence of a counter. There isn't because Pine is getting railroaded by opportunistic scum.

Why would there necessarily be a counter if Pine was scum?

Any scum with their teammate getting wagoned early faces a tricky dilemma wherein they have to take the risk of their teammate dying vs the risk that they look bad if they defend them, their teammate flips scum and they get fucked by associatives.

Given Pine's behavior this game, I think the possibility of a scumbuddy abandoning him to die is very real.

[Accountant]

Definitely wrong, wrong and never heard of it

Replace out please.

[Accountant]

So your read isn't on him as a player; you'd be townreading any name with the same wagon composition/speed?

Not speed. Speed is NAI.

Lack of a decent reason, no counter, on a lurker, and passing the buck.

Talk to me about passing the buck more

[Accountant]

Why would I do what scum tells me to do?

If you're going to be an anti-town lurksack I say go all the way

[Accountant]

Accountant; Shannon; Antihero

Not necessarily in that order.

Why Anti?

[Accountant]

What then?

Then claim scum and vote yourself

[Accountant]

also I honestly don't like any of the cases anyone's putting out. I was expecting with this playerlist that there'd be something I could sheep by now LOL

So whats wrong with hitos cases

[Accountant]

But do you actually have a substantive disagreement with my logic in 708?

I'm currently reading through Titus vs Infinity and my eyes are starting to glaze over.

Yes, because when you apply the logic in 78, you get voted like 262.

More than likely I would have still pushed N_M if I didn't have the past experience to think of the reverse being true as well.

...what does this mean

[Accountant]

I don't understand what 78 has to do with 708.

[Accountant]

Okay, I'm getting confused. Let's rehash. I think that NM saying he learnt nothing isn't alignment indicative because there are reasons for him to do it as either alignment. What's your response?

[Accountant]

Kk

[Accountant]

Accountant, what were you hoping to gain by questioning gin on that particular point?

I'm hoping to convince him that what NM did isn't a towntell. I think it's risky if people start saying so and so are town for dubious reasons and trusting them due to it.

[Accountant]

nope

[Accountant]

Questioning logic is how I sort people. I sort people by looking for the righteousness of their pushes and the genuineness of their reads, and that flows from the logic they use to justify them.

[Accountant]

Yeah, but even if Pine lasts through this day, he'll still be a huge suspect tomorrow, and if he gets lynched then, whoever hard defended him goes down with him. So I can definitely see why a partner would abandon here, especially since Pine got flashwagoned out of nowhere and came very very close to L-1 super early on

[Accountant]

especially especially since Pine is clearly not doing anything to redeem himself

[Accountant]

whoever hard defended him goes down with him.

Faulty premise.

Do you think it's impossible that scum!Pine's buddy wouldn't want to risk associating himself with someone who has a high chance of getting lynched?

[Accountant]

Her point is that you're premise is that town will never defend a scum player. Which is faulty because it happens all the time.

My premise is that the lack of a counter to Pine does not indicate that Pine is town.

[Accountant]

I don't even think it suggests it.

[Accountant]

Yeah, but even if Pine lasts through this day, he'll still be a huge suspect tomorrow, and if he gets lynched then, whoever hard defended him goes down with him. So I can definitely see why a partner would abandon here, especially since Pine got flashwagoned out of nowhere and came very very close to L-1 super early on

You're acting like his lynch is inevitable, and like his scum flip is inevitable, and like the lynch of his defenders is inevitable. Looks like you've solved the game, then!

VOTE: Accountant if I wasn't already

In the first place, the situation we are discussing is a hypothetical wherein Pine is scum. Titus claims that within that hypothetical world, Pine's buddies would defend him.

It is my view that it is probable that scum will get lynched, due to the support of a lynch on him and the fact that he's not done much to refute the arguments against him. Even if you disagree, I think it's reasonable to say that his partners might agree with me and find it probable that he will get lynched. In this case, don't you think they would avoid defending him in order to avoid having suspicion cast on then after he flips scum?

Thus, we see that in a hypothetical world where Pine is scum, there's a large chance his partners might not defend him. Therefore, the lack of counter to Pine does not indicate that he is scum.

[Accountant]

does not indicate that he is town*

[Accountant]

teaparty?

[Accountant]

Hmm

The blatant switch right after being questioned looks town to me.

why

[Accountant]

I think Accountant is scum and Pine is probably town @hito

Tea Party, as in Mad Hatter's?

No response to my refutation of your logic? Or are you more interested in pushing your pet wagon than actually finding scum?

[Accountant]

It'd be easy for scum to do it in a way that didn't look like caving under pressure.

Why would scum Bork take a special effort to avoid looking like he's caving under pressure where town Bork wouldn't?

[Accountant]

Really? I see town caving into pressure all the time. Are town somehow more resistant to pressure than scum? If not, then why is caving into pressure scummy?

[Accountant]

Perhaps to someone doing a shallow read it might look scummy, but you know it's not really scummy, I know it's not really scummy, and most experienced players know it's not really scummy. Since most of the playerlist is veteran enough to know that being indecisive is not inherently scummy, there's no reason that Bork would ever have the thought "hmmm, I'm worried I might be scumread if I appear indecisive".

[Accountant]

ok

[Accountant]

Scumpost

Why?

[Accountant]

You think I'm bork's partner defending him?

[Accountant]

Yes

But then why did I spend a page telling Infinity why his defense of Bork was bad if my intention was to defend him?

[Accountant]

Ohwait Bork is a she? My bad

[Accountant]

Accountant, was questioning me on bork an attempt to sort or an attempt to convince? If it was an attempt to sort, what were you looking for and what did you gain?

Both. I wanted to attempt to convince you but also wanted to probe how genuine you were when saying that Bork townslipped(as opposed to mafia making their buddy look good or buddying a town).

[Accountant]

Hey, shannon, are you going to actually respond to my rebuttal of your case against me? Or are you just going to ignore me and pretend that's going to make people believe you? If you're really town and are trying to get a scumread lynched, you should be doing stuff that convinces other people you're right, correct?

[Accountant]

I think it's scummy to assume so many things are going to happen that way, and to line up lynches.

Re: Pine, I wouldn't say 'never' but I would say 'usually not on scum', hence 'probably' town.

1) How am I "lining up lynches" against anyone?

2) Why is it that I would assume things would happen as scum, but not as town?

3) Why is that post "assuming" stuff when it was clearly a hypothetical discussion in the first place?

[Accountant]

Anti: What is your thoughts on shannon?

[Accountant]

Huh.

Well I will read tomorrow- but sight-unseen I would like to see the following players

UNLYNCHED

Day1:

Gin
Pine
Hito
Kuroi
Titus
Antihero.

More tomorrow!
And for those of you that don't know- I am on Asia time. GMT +10.

Why Pine and Kuroi?

[Accountant]

You keep lobbing that accusation and me and all I can do is shrug my shoulders because:

1) It's impossible to respond to
2) I'm not sure why you singled me out specifically, because I think most other players' sorting attempts are also pretty meh

So I find that vote kind of pointless.

[Accountant]

Like, I think it's essentially a vanity wagon - or at least a vanity reasoning for a wagon that has other people on it for unrelated reasons - because your definition of "meh" is very fuzzy and hard to pin down and so I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what makes my play "meh" and why that's scummy. It would be nice if you could give me that reasoning.

[Accountant]

Infinity: I think that a lot of the time my focus is on forcing people to acknowledge and overturn logical mistakes in their posting because I think it's harmful to town. For instance, it would be scary if you read Bork as town overmuch because of that post and he used that to slip by as scum, right? So while that may be meh in gamesolving terms, it fits with the objective I had. Additionally it's fallacious to say that it's scummy when the answers I get don't influence my reads. When this kind of logical questioning is happening, either the person does some kind of slip in logic that exposes a scum thought process, or they don't and it's NAI since both alignments can think logically. Just because I keep getting NAI results won't affect my own alignment.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean that I have reads which are bland and sheeping. My top scumreads are Pine, Kuroi and shannon. That's not exactly controversial, but I wouldn't see it as something that's just blindly following the common wisdom either.

[Accountant]

btw Accountant is town af. They're picking apart logic, which fits with the statement they made about their playstyle earlier. And it's proving really functional and helpful. The questions they're asking are actively providing discussion, as well as making people question/reinforce their reads. One of the towniest things one could do imo

See, I don't really see this. Can you give an example of a really productive question accountant asked and the effects it had?

You could replace my name with the names of a lot of other players here, is my point.

[Accountant]

It's because you have done little, if any, scumhunting. I'm not saying your scumhunting is misguided or fallacious, I'm saying it's not there.

[Accountant]

I don't believe you.

[Accountant]

Link a game where you were town and your level of scumhunting was comparable.

[Accountant]

Kuroi, can you talk to me about how you were more focused on the game and engaging with players about their case again you vs this game where you are more irreverent and dismissive?

[Accountant]

Wrt the logical questioning part, maybe I just disagree with you on theory here, but do you disagree that scum can usually come up with a reasonable response to most questions? Can't town be illogical as well as scum?

I'd say about 80% of the time they come up with a reasonable response. 20% of the time the reasoning is made up BS that falls apart under scrutiny. 1/5 chance of hitting jackpot at no cost is a great deal for me.

Town can be illogical, but they'll always have consistent, firm, genuine belief in their reasoning.

[Accountant]

Kuroi, can you talk to me about how you were more focused on the game and engaging with players about their case again you vs this game where you are more irreverent and dismissive?

To clarify this refers to your Strahd link.

[Accountant]

Wrt the logical questioning part, maybe I just disagree with you on theory here, but do you disagree that scum can usually come up with a reasonable response to most questions? Can't town be illogical as well as scum?

I'd say about 80% of the time they come up with a reasonable response. 20% of the time the reasoning is made up BS that falls apart under scrutiny. 1/5 chance of hitting jackpot at no cost is a great deal for me.

Town can be illogical, but they'll always have consistent, firm, genuine belief in their reasoning.

Ok, it's probably at least a large part playstyle.

UNVOTE:

Why'd you unvote? I thought your vote was meant to shake up the game, not lynch a scumfuck.

[Accountant]

Kuroi, can you talk to me about how you were more focused on the game and engaging with players about their case again you vs this game where you are more irreverent and dismissive?

Not really. There isn't a correlation between activity level and alignment.

I'm talking about the way you approach stuff. Someone calls you scum in Stahd, you're more likely to argue/engage with them and try to prove them wrong or poke holes in their case. Someone calls you scum here, you go "wow, you really can't read me, can you", or focus excessively on getting heat off your back vs having a conversation or probing the other player to see if their vote is genuine or BS.

[Accountant]

Speaking of NM: you think I'm scum, so you want to rip me apart me and get lynched, right? Don't you need town support to do that? In this case, why aren't you putting in effort to garner town support?

[Accountant]

No. That's not it at all. I wasn't disparaging. I told you how I play and showed a game of similar activity level. Now you're telling me how I approached the games in these two is different when our words ~10 posts ago speaks for itself.

I never said anything about your activity level. I don't know why you jumped to that.

[Accountant]

@All; A reminder to PM your updated working papers to the mod now; including explicitly claiming if you are or are not the third party turned town

Y'know, Accountant - if you're going to by amount of scum hunting, you should include him too. His amount of scum hunting is coimparable to mine.

Not even close. Go take a look through Cabd's ISO and look at the attempts to genuinely engage eg. Titus.

[Accountant]

I meant amount of scum hunting. My hands must be taking a departure from my mind.

The way you approach this is indicative of the amount of scumhunting you do. In other words I'm saying that in Strahd you used people's cases on you as an opportunity to gamesolve and here you're... not.

[Accountant]

Accountant, why do you scumread shannon again?

shitty logic + not making any effort to justify pushes = disingenuous pushes/BS pushes hiding behind the facade of an illogical player

[Accountant]

Pine has done enough for me. Yet, all that will continue is myreads getting staler because I cannot talk to low end posters.

I like this post.

[Accountant]

this after food

FOOD TELL FOOD TELL LYNCH THIS SCUMLORD

[Accountant]

I want NM to replace out so I can talk to a real human being rather than a troll/lurk machine

[Accountant]

No. I'm not scum reading you for playing the game differently. I'm scum reading you for not playing the game.

VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

I hope people can join me on this, because Pine is actually attempting to play the game. If we're going to policy someone, let's do it against someone who doesn't give a damn about the game.

>calls out camn's wagon for ganging up on someone who hasn't caught up and protecting Pine

>makes this post

VOTE: Kuroi

[Accountant]

Ok the next few pages are just Kuroi confirming himself as scum

I refuse to try to read camn/Titus today because it's not possible.

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:
waaaaaaaaaaay too much support to get rid of kuroi way too quickly with way too little reasoning.

So?

[Accountant]

Good reasoning, now move your vote back onto Kuroi if you really think he's scum.

Town will easily abandon their old votes when scum claims. Besides, it's fine to lynch Pine D2.

[Accountant]

Why is it suspicious that it was quick? Say Kuroi was scum. Why would the wagon NOT develop quickly? Would town be slower to pick up on his scummy behaviors?

[Accountant]

If there was a stronger case on him maybe. Like pine wagon I didn't have an issue with since the case was very strong for how early on it was. But generally I share ETL's view that wagons that develop quickly are likely to have opportunistic scum and that bussing usually doesn't happen that quickly. Not always, but more likely.

But if you could explain why kuroi is scum other than bad logic and not answering questions that would help me a lot.

why are you dismissing the bad logic and not answering questions?

[Accountant]

I don't think they're a good enough case. I've seen town do both of those things quite a bit.

But the way in which it was done was very scummy - for instance usually town refuses to answer questions because they think it comes from scum or because they think it's ridiculous. The way I see it, Kuroi didn't do it because of those reasons, but rather because he was uncomfortable with the line of questioning, which was why he aggressively deflected the question.

[Accountant]

I think it may very well be Kuroi and Pine.

[Accountant]

I'm becoming more and more sure that Infinity is scum. Almost every single post feels like it's dripping with fake fakey fakeness. "look at me, i'm scum hunting but not really"

Can you quote some examples of those "fake" posts?

[Accountant]

My Infinity townread is mostly gone. Kuroi/Pine are both excellent wagons and I will unashamedly sheep the largest one; frankly unless someone has an actual towncase on them(as opposed to going "oh but they were merely only acting like a giant scumfuck, and not literally claiming scum"/"hehe Pine is my bro so I will not lynch") I think the distinction between them on D1 is negligible, as I think they both have a roughly equal, and high, chance of flipping scum.

[Accountant]

@bork Why did you state an intent to hammer (with a caveat, but still) if you were so unsure? Don't you want more time to work it out.

Based on what experience I have, if I expressed a scumread on someone with a large wagon and then didn't vote for them then people would bitch at me endlessly. And I don't really feel like being whined at. Y'know, along the lines of 'omg shes scumreading but not voting omg I found teh scum!'.

Isn't that saying that you care more about how you look to the rest of the town over hammering someone you don't want to? Also, why not just say "at the start, I already said I was uncertain in my read, so it's unreasonable to expect me to hammer this early"?

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: pine

And theeere's the scumclaim.

Why is this a scumclaim

[Accountant]

I'm becoming more and more sure that Infinity is scum. Almost every single post feels like it's dripping with fake fakey fakeness. "look at me, i'm scum hunting but not really"

Can you quote some examples of those "fake" posts?

Spoiler: all of these sound disingenuous.

On one hand, kuroi is being very reckless for one. On the other hand, he may just be scum BSing because this logic is almost too dumb to be town.

Please let's not lynch people for not reading the thread, at least ETL looks like he'll play the game unlike n_m

1212 feels like trying to spin facts into a narrative. I know town can do that too but eh

Kuroi doesn't feel like scum to me and I agree with ETL that it developed suspiciously quickly

VOTE: camn

Yeah this is better. The case on kuroi is really not as strong as you guys are making it out to be.

ETL you were right to doubt yourself.

@bork Why did you state an intent to hammer (with a caveat, but still) if you were so unsure? Don't you want more time to work it out.

Honestly I can't make much sense of kuroi myself so I don't totally blame you guys for scumreading him I just can't see his actions from a scum perspective

and I don't know how to explain it

bleh

maybe it's best we end up lynching him today so we can get scum like camn tomorrow

I might be confirmation biased but I don't think I'm wrong.

also the buddying of me. also the wking of kuroi. also the chainsawing on camn.

Sorry ETL I don't see this as disingenuous

[Accountant]

two counterwagons - pine and camn. anti was voting camn. switched to kuroi but then hopped off.... to vote.... the counterwagon to his previous vote.....

I don't get it.

[Accountant]

I lost my job last night. Give me a day to... fix myself, and I'll give this the attention it deserves.

I'm sorry to hear that. I won't hold a grudge if you decide you'd rather replace out and focus on your life, for the record.

And also for the record Infinity is a far worse wagon than either Pine or Kuroi.

[Accountant]

VOTE: High

Reads haven't changed since yesterday. Flips don't make any difference in this regard(yes, I still trust hito). Tired and headache. Will talk more when I get up.

[Accountant]

so hito and titus are scum

Why?

[Accountant]

Alternative: We lynch you because you're scum

What about me? Am I still scum?

[Accountant]

VOTE: Kuroi

My head is not in this game atm. Kuroi, let's have a coffee and a chat. I know you scumread me. Who else do you scumread and why?

[Accountant]

VOTE: camn

I will tunnel the everloving shit out of this obvscum until she's lynched.

Someone needs to sit me the fuck down and explain in baby words why camn is obvscum.

[Accountant]

And by someone I mean you.

Also, Anti was obvtown and clearly a strong player.

[Accountant]

Thats how this all started. How dare I throw out a scumread on trolls.

Well, first of all, Bork isn't a troll, and that's blatantly obvious - comparing her with NM is unfair.

Second of all, you don't have a scumread on NM. You're not trying to lynch NM because you're very sure that NM is scum. You're doing it because you don't want him in LyLo - it's a policy lynch.

[Accountant]

@all the people who want Camn lynched: I don't feel like lynching a claimed investigative.

[Accountant]

How can you be so staggeringly overconfident in your read on camn that you think she's still scum despite being an un-cc'd investigative

[Accountant]

I woke up to take a leak.

Accountant, I posted a reads list not too long ago. Look there.

I was actually looking for explanations.

But okay, where's your null line in your reads list? Why is NM at top? Has Gin really obvtowned that much?

[Accountant]

Well, just to clarify, right now, do you think NM has a significantly higher than average chance of flipping scum?

[Accountant]

camn kuroi cabd i am now positive are town. power back YAY so i'll be back here soon after coffee and breakfast.

Be sure to come back with an explanation for these reads!

[Accountant]

Kuroi read. Talk to me. You know that's not a good explanation.

[Accountant]

Kuroi read. Talk to me. You know that's not a good explanation.

its good enough for me. why do i have to justify a town read? i think he's town based on his posts. he feels town. he was being an angry idiot D1 and nothing he was saying was making sense but in the context of him being irritable it does i suppose.

VOTE: ETL

@Titus: Your hito read is based off:

a) Pushed wagon on town Pine
b) Anti said so

or

c) Both?

or

d) Other [explain?]

[Accountant]

Presumably the mafia think anti's reads are too close to the truth and bumped him off, so this lends his reads credence

[Accountant]

I cared about the reasoning behind your reads because I thought you might be town. But after your response I no longer think so.

[Accountant]

btw, saying that you're scum because shannon didn't leave working papers is legitimate logic(it doesn't actually make you scum cos shannon is apparently lazy as town but nobody couldve known that). Scum have no reason to leave working papers as they will be ignored, so scum is less likely to have working papers

[Accountant]

now i remember why i quit this fucking site in the first place. these games are not fun.

p-edit idgaf.

If you really didn't care about my scumread on you, you wouldn't make a long post telling me my scumread is bad

[Accountant]

Accountant, why is ETL scum?

0 interest in engaging, 0 interest in trying to sort me or anyone else when forced to engage(nothing in that convo with me could conceivably be spun as an attempt to figure out mine or anyone else's alignment rather than an attempt to look good), 0 reasoning for reads

Titus, why is Hito scum?

[Accountant]

Why not just lazy town?

But then what's with the anger about being called out?

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:

Hard to fake this type of anger as scum; and I don't feel like being on a wagon with Kuroi.

[Accountant]

this is super wrong. Not that it is wrong on the surface.. but scum are LESS likely to SAY they don't have working papers. They have a whole scumteam to help them with this, (given Daytalk), and totally have incentive to lie. ETL doesnt deserve scumpoints for telling us there were no papers.
Secondly, Shannon replaced out, and looked unengaged. There is no indication she even KNEW what the working papers were.. and in the Hunger Games (which FB modded and had a similar mechanic) townies forgot all the time. So that whole arc is shite.

I straight up said that anyone who thinks ETL is scum because of this is wrong, but on the other hand it's not unreasonable to glance at the game and come to that conclusion, and pretending that anyone who does is a flaming idiot is bad.

[Accountant]

this is actually a v. good post

Mmm. I did unvote ETL.

[Accountant]

VOTE: Kuroi

[Accountant]

Ceph's entrance is pretty obvtown. I had a previous townlean on that slot so I'm comfortable with calling him strong town.

@camn: I understand that Not_Mafia needs to die by LyLo, and I don't even disagree with the PL here, but I want Kuroi to die first. Come lynch Kuroi with me, please.

@hito: what's your stance on Kuroi again? I don't think Infinity is a good lynch.

[Accountant]

Going hard on the camn lynch despite the claim

[Accountant]

Because if camn gets lynched and flips investigative, there's a spotlight on Ceph; scum doesn't like the spotlight, and if he wants to get rid of camn he can do it at night. There's no reason for scum!Ceph here to draw so much attention to himself for no good reason barring stupid WIFOM games

[Accountant]

Except he can be like, lol didn't read sry.

And sorry, hito, I misread the tone of 1772 in re: ETL. That makes me feel even BETTER about sheeping you.

but nobody is going to believe that he didn't read your claim?

+ he continued pushing even after attention was drawn to it

[Accountant]

but nobody is going to believe that he didn't read your claim?

Kuroi is right about the WIFOM. I haven't even flipped, and you in particular are

already

giving him town points for not caring that if I am telling the truth.

No, I'm giving him town points for not giving a shit if the spotlight comes on him. Seeking out attention is definitely a towntell, and that adds on to my existing townread on Gin's slot.

[Accountant]

Right, this conversation is going nowhere. Let's talk about more interesting things.

@camn: I understand that Not_Mafia needs to die by LyLo, and I don't even disagree with the PL here, but I want Kuroi to die first. Come lynch Kuroi with me, please.

[Accountant]

Why is Kuroi still on ETL?

[Accountant]

I let go of the scumread because I realized he wasn't scum. Do you disagree with my reasoning? If so, why?

[Accountant]

I will go ahead and re-read Infinity's D2 play.

[Accountant]

@hito: Infinity's "durdling around" seems like lost/aimless town rather than scum to me. I don't read him as the sort of player who active lurks as scum.

[Accountant]

camn, Hito, Infinity. I am not lynching these players today. Struggling to avoid confbiasing on Kuroi but he keeps doing scummy shit. Nobody trs him, some sr him but somehow his wagon evaporates every time. That makes me more certain that he is scum.

[Accountant]

They're not scummy.

[Accountant]

Blah. I feel disengaged this game and I don't know why.

[Accountant]

Suppose we agree to make the lynch targets for today limited to those on Pine's wagon. What then?

[Accountant]

Cephrir: In this setup there's a named townie(the internal auditor), which is confirmed to be town. Cabd has claimed IA and there's no CC.

[Accountant]

No, I'm saying that it's extremely unlikely that a lynch on town D1 doesn't have at least 1 scum on it, so it might be fruitful to try to find the scum on that wagon, which is easier than trying to look at everyone and getting lost in the chaos.

[Accountant]

That is, who had the most unrighteous or un-genuine reasons for being on that lynch?

[Accountant]

Blah. I feel disengaged this game and I don't know why.

Offer to talk about reads goes out to you as well...

What reads of mine do you want me to talk about?

[Accountant]

I skimmed the last three pages - I just can't summon up the motivation to read them carefully. Please let me know if there's anything important I missed. Infinity wagon feels to me like this weird compromise wagon that everyone magically gravitates to, and I personally think it's a mislynch. So I'm not getting on that ever.

[Accountant]

Start with camn

She's town.

[Accountant]

Start with camn

She's town.

Why

I don't know

All I remember is that I had a strong TR on her for some reason earlier in this day phase and I don't recall why. I trust my previous self, I guess.

[Accountant]

I kind of want to replace out. Sorry everyone. I can't muster up the willpower to play this game and I'd rather replace than be a lurksack.

[Accountant]

im replacing out btw

[Accountant]

this is an official request to replace out due to extreme game apathy this is not your fault firebringer I'm sorry for ruining your game

~Noted

[Accountant]

nice work everyone!