Mini 1880: Witch Trials Mafia - Game over!

[Shaziro]

Why would I want to prove Iso as town if I was scum, instead of continuing to point out how outright scummy they have been in the attempts of getting them mislynched? Especially if I had made the point very clear that I did not feel they should make it to LyLo?

[Shaziro]

Mod: Would a role working differently than the wiki says it does be a moderator lie?

[Shaziro]

Mod: Also, is it bastard for a votecount to not be reset by something like a govern, which alters how many votes are needed for a hammer?

[Shaziro]

How about you let my questions get answered and wait.

[Shaziro]

Right, so based on what Clumsy said (Apologies if you felt backed into a corner about how you could answer without giving anything away, I wasn't trying to angleshoot ya), any role that changes how many are required to lynch causes a vote reset. Dreal. I challenge you to think of a role or power that would cause a vote to not count towards a lynch that isn't negative for the person voting and wouldn't trigger a reset.

[Shaziro]

Clumsy just confirmed that any role that would change the amount of votes needed to lynch would reset the VC. A power that scum could use to make their vote not count would do exactly that. Therefore, it would reset the vote count.

[Shaziro]

And no, Clumsy can't have been lying. He's already confirmed this game has no mod lies.

[Shaziro]

I have a number of comments to make on the above, but we still have two people who haven't posted. Care to join us?

Let's hear what you got.

What do you think about it?

[Shaziro]

What about my argument for Iso being likely town?

[Shaziro]

Read my recent posts, the ones after that explaining.

[Shaziro]

If we -did- massclaim, what would be your proposed claim order?

[Shaziro]

Hm...

[Shaziro]

This game has gone quiet.

[Shaziro]

Witchcrafts are the equivalent to spells, it's just a different name for the same concept. In Curse of Strahd, the folks who had spells could choose to use them, and they were all positive as a result. After all, there's no real reason to choose to use a negative-to-you ability. We could also prove that it was not a spell by having Iso "hammer" two times in one day. If both times fail, they're clear. If they hammer, it was once per game or once per day, and that makes them a witch. The logic is perfectly sound, and I'd be happy to test it in the way I just described. I'll even let them "hammer" -me- instead of anyone else. Scum can't quickhammer and get away with it either, as it's pretty clear there's only one witch left, and that means any quickhammerer gets hung, costing them the game.

Iso, your vote on me is bad and you should feel bad for it.

[Shaziro]

...the one who claimed a whole lot of abilities? And also legitimately -did- catch scum by page 3, when he caught Grey the SK?

[Shaziro]

That's an answer as to who was more likely to die, me or Vecna.

[Shaziro]

Not gonna vote a townread.

[Shaziro]

No I mean so I can hammer something since thats what you want me to do.
You did say you want me to hammer a wagon twice in 1 day, right?

If you wanna do it that way, that works too. I'm gonna wait for a VC to make sure I'm only putting you at L-1 though.

Dreal, if you and Iso are the only ones votable, I'm voting you.

[Shaziro]

I don't see a logical way that Iso, with the role I believe they have, could be a witch.

[Shaziro]

I said that -before- I decided they were town. Literally ISO me and look at the post order.

[Shaziro]

Christ sake Dreal, read the damn game. I said that since Iso was a wishy washy middle ground who could easily be scum or town, they couldn't be allowed to be around in a LyLo scenario and needed to be either sorted or lynched. I figured we should lynch, because our cop got killed after outing Desperado. Then, while thinking about Desperado's flip, I noticed the thing with the Witchcrafts, and came to my conclusion that if Iso's role -is- what we're seeing, it makes no logical sense for Iso to be a witch. Since I've got them sorted, I don't want them lynched, because they aren't scum. Also, Iso, I thought you said you couldn't hammer. If that's true, why does it matter to you who your "hammer" is on?

[Shaziro]

Alright, Iso, if you confirm you're here, I'll gladly test your role by voting you, you "selfhammering", me unvoting.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Isomorphic

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Unvote

Right, now we see what the result of that was, repeat, and if you still aren't dead you can't be a witch.

[Shaziro]

Y'know, I would feel a bit bad for testing like this....but it has a very witch-trials feel to it.

[Shaziro]

Uh. Should I still be voting?

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Isomorphic

[Shaziro]

VOTE: unvote

[Shaziro]

Dreal, you here?

[Shaziro]

[Shaziro]

No, my logic goes well beyond that. Read my explanation. Effectively, if they can "cast witchcrafts", then it's something they choose to use. If they choose to use a negative ability they're ridiculous. I also highly doubt that -any- mod would give somebody the power of "you can fake a vote on somebody". It -does- make sense as a negative utility. I think that a massclaim would be a good idea maybe.

[Shaziro]

Can you think of a reason for the witches to have negative utility, given that they're dealing with several town PRs and a serial killer who can commute?

I sure as fuck can't. My guess is that the [Redacted] probably includes their revenge kill. I bet they both get it, I bet it's called "Evil Eye" or something like that (Because that's a big witch thing and was supposed to bring misfortune), and I bet it's not considered a "witchcraft".

[Shaziro]

Iso, do you still think I'm scum?

[Shaziro]

Can you think of a reason for the witches to have negative utility, given that they're dealing with several town PRs and a serial killer who can commute?

It's staring you in the face. You're literally pushing it yourself.

So you think that the mod would give a witch negative utility...so they could claim that they can't be a witch, they have negative utility?

[Shaziro]

Iso, do you still think I'm scum?

We'll cross that bridge tomorrow because I'm most likely sure the game ends with this:
VOTE: Drealmerz
-Ali

What happened to your super positive scumread on me?

[Shaziro]

Do you think it's possible for there to be two witches remaining XnadrojX?

p-edit: Sniped by Iso.

[Shaziro]

I vote for a massclaim. I'm fine with Isomorphic's order.

[Shaziro]

Am I next on the claim order, or is that Dreal?

[Shaziro]

Me (I already claimed)
Drealmerz
SlySly
Shaz
Persivul
Mudkip
-Ali

Did I miss Drealmerz roleclaiming? If not, I want to hear that, and then I want to hear Persivul and Kip. -Then- I'll roleclaim.

[Shaziro]

Same thing I told Titus in Adventure Mafia, Isomorphic.

~Reasons~

[Shaziro]

Isomorp, scum almost definitely have a roleblocking witchcraft. It just makes sense as an ability to be made a spell.

[Shaziro]

I probably should've let SlySly answer that, didn't see it as a question when I first read it. My bad.

[Shaziro]

Dreal, roleclaim.

[Shaziro]

When you get your answer, Pers, I'd like you to claim.

[Shaziro]

I'm up. Am I the only one not to have Roleclaimed yet?

[Shaziro]

You're right, that's the one we're missin'. Let's hear it, kipper!

[Shaziro]

My turn! I'm a VT, I'm the Town Tailor. Can't do anything but voice and vote, same as everyone else. I also, as flavor, make clothes and sell linens.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Drealmerz

[Shaziro]

Dreal is not confirmed.

[Shaziro]

Dreal is probably scum. Note how early on, he was adamant that people not be called confirmed town unless they're an IC, and shouted and raved about how there was no way they were "confirmed". Now -he- gets called confirmed, and there is no such complaint. Hypocrisy.

[Shaziro]

No. But when people are calling -you- confirmed town, you don't correct them. Hypocrisy.

[Shaziro]

No, you're scum. You aren't using your gladiate because you know that having it doesn't mean you're confirmed town, and because you know that the person who you would use it on, Isomorphic, isn't getting lynched. Isomorphic, of course, pinged me too when they demanded it be on them, because that of course suggests they either A: Don't believe you have it or B: Know that you'll get lynched in that tradeoff. But that doesn't excuse you being hypocritical and scummy.

[Shaziro]

Why would scum know there was an IC though? That's non-information.

[Shaziro]

Babysitter has no special interaction with an IC, so far as I am aware.

[Shaziro]

Slysly, why do you think him mentioning ICs and then there being an IC is suspicious?

[Shaziro]

Gladiate slysly, or you're definitely today's lynch.

[Shaziro]

Because you claimed the role, now you get to prove it. Gladiate him now.

[Shaziro]

Do you think Slysly is scum?

[Shaziro]

Then gladiate your scumread. Prove your claim true. Otherwise, I recommend you start backpedaling and explaining why it was a fakeclaim, but that's okay

[Shaziro]

Can you all realize there is only one more scum? Please and thanks.

[Shaziro]

Like, we have a proven town Seer who saw 2 shadows. We've killed an SK. It's a 2/1/10 game. Either Slysly is lying and is scum, dreal is lying and is scum, or dreal might be scum with a gladiate witchcraft. I want to see Dreal gladiate the two possible scum, please and thank you, and we can go from there. So do it, or you're the lynch Dreal.

[Shaziro]

Like, if you're scum that is hoping to just stall it out and -maybe- get away with us forgetting deadline and hitting a no lynch? You've got 3 and a half days. It ain't gonna happen. Go ahead, gladiate.

[Shaziro]

So now we just wait for mod confirmation. Gonna explain why you wanted to stall if you -knew- why you shouldn't?

[Shaziro]

Given that I'm asking, it should be clear to you that it isn't clear to me. Quit getting pissy and clarify.

[Shaziro]

So you're one shot, I take it?

[Shaziro]

Arright, so now it's a fairly simple debate between whether Dreal's gladiate is a witchcraft, or his own ability. Dreal, what is the flavor for your role, what function do you perform in the town?

[Shaziro]

So you are saying that your role pm didn't give you a position in the town, just a role?

[Shaziro]

What I've asked for is if he has a specific job given. From what I can see, literally everyone else does. He somehow doesn't. That's suspicious to me.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Slysly I wanna see how this pans out.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: unvote

No, we didn't. I put you at l-1

[Shaziro]

@Mod: Slysly is listed as both voting for Dreal, and not voting

No he isn't. There was not an error in the VC. That just doesn't happen. Your mod is not bad at VCs. Pick up that can. Move along.

Fixed.

[Shaziro]

If I'm the lynch, XanaX has no vote tomorrow.

Your point being that, if you are mislynched, town necessarily loses?

[Shaziro]

I'd rather kill scum today than try and play the "oh which is safer if it's a mislynch!" game.

[Shaziro]

If Slysly got flipped and flipped town, we'd be lynching you or dreal.

[Shaziro]

Because scum can have a gladiator too.

[Shaziro]

I've been mentally debating between the two. I'm more comfortable with Dreal going at this point. You?

VOTE: Dreal

[Shaziro]

Why would scum not have a witchcraft allowing them to gladiate. Especially one that is flavored as them having devilish charisma? That's very standard witch fare.

[Shaziro]

Nope. Voting what I see as the most likely scum based on what I've seen.

[Shaziro]

Somebody get on here and hammer Dreal.

[Shaziro]

Iso, vote somebody, -now-. We are -way- short on time, and Xnad has to hammer because you can't.

[Shaziro]

I think they're both likely to flip town tho ;~;
-Ali

A lynch is better for us than a no lynch and you know it.

Somebody get on here and hammer Dreal.

He's L-2

I meant somebody as a kind of plural, yes, I know we need two votes.

[Shaziro]

Alright, majority is on dreal, Pers or Xnad one you need to hammer it.

[Shaziro]

Once on another site, I was gladiator, gladiated scum (actually a 3P - not exactly a SK but similar), they lynched me, and that 3P went on to win.

"This one time, X happened, that's what's happening here!"

Remind me to point out how bad this logic is when Slysly flips town.

VOTE: Slysly

[Shaziro]

The biggest load of BS is that Xanax had this big hardon to lynch sly and didn't even revote after the gladiate.

p-edit:

Shaz it's up to you

He was assumedly waiting because he knew that Iso couldn't hammer.

[Shaziro]

Why in the hell would you -ever- put somebody to L-1 in Lylo that fucking fast? You had a -big fuckin' case- from me proving that Isomorphic was town, and look, I was 100% right. Don't brag about your homesite's newbies being better than anyone here when you do things like that, Dreal.

[Shaziro]

Persivul played a damn good game, and town -still- would have won if Dreal hadn't played LyLo like he's never heard of Mafia.

[Shaziro]

AND IT WASN'T EVEN BASED ON GUT OR META OR ANYTHING IT WAS REALLY SOLID LOGIC AND I WAS PROUD.

[Shaziro]

"I played like shit because everyone else is bad". L O fucking L.

[Shaziro]

Also, you don't get to pretend like you gave Keyen any kind of chance to prove that they were town. You voted and before they could post for shit, Pers hammered it. If you were playing even half decently, you'd have declared intent to vote there and gotten reactions and information. You played fast and loose because you played badly. That is nobody's fault but your own.

Oh, and as for my case sucking? Read the dead thread. Everybody but you agreed it was a fine case, -including the fucking mod-.

Also, if you had not gladiated, you'd have gladiated Iso or some shit and been -just as wrong-. Stop trying to blame everyone else for your garbage play.

[Shaziro]

It's gamethrowing because you failed to consider that your read could be wrong. You don't even get to argue that it was a good read, because it was -wrong-! You set scum up to get an easy win if you were wrong, and you -were fucking wrong-.

[Shaziro]

The guy who put somebody at l-1 in lylo first thing is telling somebody else they don't know how to play the game. LOL. It must be real embarassing to brag about how even the newbies on your home site are better than players here, and then play like that.

[Shaziro]

When the scum, the town, and the 3rd party all agree in the deadchat that it's your fault...it's -probably- your fault.

P-edit: If you think there is a nonzero chance that you are wrong, USE THE TIME LEFT IN THE DAY (you know, that 2 week period?) TO NARROW THAT CHANCE DOWN.

[Shaziro]

Your frame of mind is garbage and wrong. Voting somebody immediately on a 3 person lylo because you're thinking they're scum without spending any time ensuring that your read is correct is gamethrowing, especially when a well-developed case for that person being town is in play. Blaming the person you set up to get quickhammered because they didn't have time to talk to you before they got quickhammered is garbage.

[Shaziro]

Man, roles sure are pointless to look at, it isn't like my case was 100% correct. It's not like I have basic logic capabilities to know that in a highly PR-ed town and a 3rd party, scum wouldn't get negative utility. Nope. Never happened. Clearly I just said they were town because the role "sounded town", right?

P-edit: The gambit was quite literally the only proper response to your little stunt.

[Shaziro]

You didn't look at the fact that the one person hard-defending Ali was NKed. You didn't look at the fact that the one person scumreading Pers was killed off. You didn't take the time to let Keyen explain what was up with -their- Persivul scumread that was stated to exist by Alisae, even after it was made clear that Keyen was there and trying to post. You threw, dreal.

[Shaziro]

The difference is, Slysly didn't throw the game.

[Shaziro]

I mean, I assumed you didn't take the time to look at those, because if you had the answer would've been clear and you voting Isomorphic would be the dumbest move ever. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't that dumb.

[Shaziro]

Don't worry, I won't make the mistake for a third time!

[Shaziro]

So you have the right to be mad that we think you gamethrew, but Ali doesn't have the right to be mad at you saying they were useless all game? That's a pretty lame double-standard!

I mean, I also thought Isomo was scummy. Hence me hard scumreading them. But then I applied some -basic fuckin' logic- and made a case. A case you ignored, because you were on a lame ass tunnel. Then you tunneled it so hard you instavoted in Lylo 3 person and gave scum the win, costing town the game.

[Shaziro]

Very sad Pine left the game too, by the way.
I did most of this because PRINCESS RARITY is the lovechild of Paladin Andrius and Cleric Pine but he wasn't even here to see it.

If I don't play another game of mafia then this will be a good bookend for me.
I'm at the point where I'd rather play D&D with a small group of people I want to play a game with than sit through a mafia game with a grab bag. oh well

pedit: I haven't left, Ali, I just have no will to play mafia at the moment since there are no games that interest me.

Once my Mini Normal is wrapped up, Clumsy and I are working on running a Mini Theme together that may suit these needs!

[Shaziro]

Man, it sure is super complex and deep to instavote in a 3 person lylo. We just don't understand Dreal's super strategic mind. MASTER OF PUPPETS, MOTHERFUCKERS

[Shaziro]

Dreal literally everyone else agrees you're wrong. Accept it.

[Shaziro]

Tends to be a good idea to cop the middle ground, get 'em sorted.

[Shaziro]

you vote and if you vote wrong, the game is over

Which is why

It is gamethrowing

To make your first post

In LyLo

A fucking vote.

Is it

Gamethrowing

To self hammer

As an independent???

I should point out that it -is- playing against your win condition.

[Shaziro]

The difference, Pers, is that the only person he particularly screwed over by acting dumb was himself. Maybe scum to a degree because they didn't get the extra kill from him, but then again he may have killed scum. Dreal let the entire town down by acting dumb.

[Shaziro]

And actual Dreal, that's EXACTLY what it might be.

I thought a few good hard minutes about what really made the most sense, tried to "feel" you out! whatever it is, I'm looking forward to it!!!

Those few minutes are the downside of not having the same brain as Clumsy. It is both a blessing and a curse.