Mini 1889: Greatest Idea Mafia (Endgame!)

[Wraith]

Lil Uzi Vert: Black Goo

Thank god for that one

[Wraith]

I'm Masons with Keyser.

Take your vote elsewhere.

Aw man, if you really are I'm gonna be mad about discarding that. Then again, Survivor sucks.

For random-ish setups like, is there a set number of scum draws that guarantees at least one scum faction in the game despite discards? Or is it entirely random? Is it possible even for there to be no scum in the game at all?

[Wraith]

town bp

I cc your discard

There is only one Bulletproof Townie card.

RadiantCowbells vs Transcend - one is guaranted scum.

FIGHT!

Isn't RC saying he CCs Nurse?

And VT is my alignment card.

[Wraith]

Isn't RC saying he CCs Nurse?

And VT is my alignment card.

Nurse has been mod-confirmed as a discard.

RC counterclaiming a mod confirmed discard would be a scum-claim.

Oh, duh, I'm being stupid.

But if RC is counterclaiming BP then why word is as "I CC your discard"

[Wraith]

Also I initially misread the CC as "Carbon Copy" for some reason so I thought he said he got a duplicate to one of Transcend's claimed cards.

[Wraith]

Oh dear.

I think I misunderstood the combination rules. I thought the two cards you kept combined entirely, so I would've been a Survivor Mason + Role Card. But I realize now that properly I could've been either a Survivor + Role Card or a Mason + Role Card.

NOOOOOOOOOO

[Wraith]

MY POWER IS TOWN ALIGNED

Me too thanks

[Wraith]

I did not get dealt Town Mason.

[Wraith]

RC claimed Doctor? Even more damage done.

Yeah I don't know why he did that either.

[Wraith]

I still don't like the sound of this to be honest.

Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie

I was about to ask why on earth you wouldn't discard that one, but then remembered you were the one who discarded Black Goo.

That's either a remarkably convenient claim or stupendously terrible draw luck.

[Wraith]

VOTE: Wraith

man you gotta work on your scum game.

Oh did I speculate multiball in RVS in this one too?

[Wraith]

Yeah, I'm not claiming my exact alignment card. It's town, and I have a neutral power.

So for now, I'm just gonna sheep RC. VOTE: Wraith

This struck me as odd on a re-read. Besides the whole being generally unhelpful part.

I have a neutral power.

Doesn't this narrow down what power zefiend was dealt?

Jester
One-Shot Townie
Underdog
Survivor
Compulsive Bodyguard Survivor
Lyncher x2
SK Varaiants x4
Cult One-Shot Recruiter
Wild Card

I skipped ahead just to answer the earlier question, since apparently 1-shot lynchproof is good?

I got dealt retired marine and a card with a very useful ability, so I took the Retired marine for alignment (the odds of an SK in this setup are very low). Seems stupid to out my actual role. Suffice it to say that I valued it over having a shot of lynchproof.

I'm also skeptical of this, and I feel other players have ignored it to pressure zefiend.

If you're dealt One-Shot Unlynchable + Retired Marine + "a very useful ability", why use the Retired Marine as your alignment instead of the Unlynchable?

And I don't buy that Drixx doesn't know Unlynchable (even a One-Shot) is a powerful role.

VOTE: Drixx

[Wraith]

Hey Wraith, which of those potential-zefiend-powers is the one that makes you go "nah I won't vote for him, at least this one seems helpful to town"? Because all that list made me want to do is

VOTE: zefiend

If he's telling the truth about his alignment card (unverifiable at this point) and I'm interpreting the mechanics correctly, then if he drew SK he could be a Town Vig.

But I'm not voting for him because I'm generally leery of wagons that gain steam this quickly. So I'm going to look somewhere else and wait to see how things develop in general.

[Wraith]

And to add to above the reason I brought up the pool of possible claims by zefiend is because several of those roles aren't particularly pro-Town even with a supposed Town alignment card.

But even then (I personally find the refusal to claim a specific alignment card pretty sketchy) I still want to wait before joining a wagon on zefiend.

[Wraith]

Actually, what the hell am I doing?

Rethinking about what I want to hear from certain players, there's no reason not to move this along right now.

VOTE: zefiend

[Wraith]

Actually, what the hell am I doing?

Rethinking about what I want to hear from certain players, there's no reason not to move this along right now.

VOTE: zefiend

L-2 BTW

[Wraith]

Oh hey another game where I get wagon'd and probably killed D1

Where have I faced this situation before?

Oh wait, every game I've ever played ever. Except The Thing.

Let's get on with it, shall we?

[Wraith]

Oh hey another game where I get wagon'd and probably killed D1

Where have I faced this situation before?

Oh wait, every game I've ever played ever. Except The Thing.

Let's get on with it, shall we?

Way to overreact bruh.

It tends to be less an overreaction than prescience

TBH I can't tell if I'm more frustrated or jaded at this point. Literally every time my better nature tells my brain "Don't lurk D1, try to make a meaningful contribution" and I try, someone with influence has a problem with it and I eventually get lynched because of it.

So fuck it. I'll just sit here and wait.

[Wraith]

blaming other people for their playstyles is a terrible way to go through mafia

I'm not blaming Grey. I'm blaming me for going with my first instinct rather than pragmatism.

[Wraith]

alrigh wraith who do you think is scum?

It's page 9. So I don't really have strong reads yet.

Zefiend is the closest to a scumread I guess.

PREDIT: My first instinct being to post something rather than lurk. That's what I was saying.

[Wraith]

alrigh wraith who do you think is scum?

It's page 9. So I don't really have strong reads yet.

Zefiend is the closest to a scumread I guess.

PREDIT: My first instinct being to post something rather than lurk. That's what I was saying.

Since you've noticed you get lynched every time you feel the need to post something, who do you think is most likely to be scum on your wagon?

Wraith: ɀefiend, LUV, Grey

Hmmm...

[Wraith]

Also it strikes me that if Grey was fishing for "bad votes" then it's rather hypocritical for him to have flipped on his read on zefiend in order to vote for me.

[Wraith]

Catching up with thread:

If you're dealt One-Shot Unlynchable + Retired Marine + "a very useful ability", why use the Retired Marine as your alignment instead of the Unlynchable?

If Drixx was dealt two town cards, it doesn't matter what order he discarded/used for alignment (the power is irrelevant).
Were you s/reading Drixx for that discard choice?

But I'm not voting for him because I'm generally leery of wagons that gain steam this quickly. So I'm going to look somewhere else and wait to see how things develop in general.

The speed of wagons is less relevant in Greatest Idea Mafia games.
With the possibility of multiple scum factions a quick wagon basically means: town + scum are happy with the lynch (but the victim of the quick-wagon could just as likely be a member of a rival scum faction).

You're right

I think my inexperience with this setup is really harming my play right now

[Wraith]

@Grey: Why announce it beforehand at all?

[Wraith]

I was hoping to not vote D1 (unless it was needed to ensure a lynch).

?

Why?

[Wraith]

I'll try to do a review of the thread later today.

Tomorrow I'll be away from my desktop for a couple days. I'll be able to post from my phone but not extensively.

[Wraith]

Okay, let's get to work.

First let's figure out who's lurking, since there are players with a single post or so in the last couple of pages who I completely forgot about.

Posts By Player

Grey: 92
Transcend: 65
Keyser: 50
RC: 36
LUV: 36
boring: 33
Wraith: 26
Screenplay: 22
zefiend: 22
alban: 8
massive: 7
PimHel: 5
Drixx: 4

So unbelievably, there are three players who have fewer posts than alban, who pleads sickness.

At the moment, I'm reasonably confident in assuming Keyser and Grey are both town. Keyser has been actively moving to solve the game from an early stage, and I find Grey claiming Mass Redirector to be more likely town-motivated than not.

However, re-reading I've encountered a contradiction already that will be noted below.

Let's go through shit.

Spoiler: Wall

* PimHel is still sitting on his RVS vote (Screenplay), who happens to now be a growing wagon target. Screenplay is still sitting on his RVS vote (Grey), this despite him townreading Grey in #358.
* Like me, boring was rather perplexed by Drixx discarding the One-shot Unlynchable Townie card
* Grey claimed Mason with Keyser in #38. However, in #324, he also claims Mass Redirector. While it's possible that Grey was joke-claiming Mason for the RVS, this still needs clarification. EDIT: Since Keyser comes out and says he isn't actually Masons with Grey in #92, it's clear now Grey was just joke-claiming.
* I'm still rather confused about RC's apparent counterclaim in #61. In #81 he goes back on his counterclaim and claims Doctor as his alignment card. But even then, that brings back the question of why counterclaim against a mod-confirmed discard?
* LUV in #93-94 is indirectly objecting to Keyser's effort to get everyone to claim alignment cards by misreading the claims of Transcend and RC and portraying those claims as "damaging" to the town. Honest mistake? Subtle way to throw shade on Keyser? Both are equally plausible, but for now I lean the latter.
* Again, zefiend outright refusing to claim his alignment card is suspicious to me. Some have brought up that such a gambit would make little sense as scum because it would draw immediate heat on him - I disagree. While this situation would be easily avoidable if zefiend simply claimed VT for alignment, if I can inject some WIFOM any scum player here would be obviously aware that that's the easy out and might consider a VT alignment card claim suspicion in itself. For my part, I view the refusal to even allow a risk he might be counterclaimed as more suspicious than anything.
* boring is also skeptical of claiming alignment cards. Despite this, he votes for zefiend.
* I find it suspicious that Transcend was immediately wary of zefiend's refusal to claim his alignment card, yet didn't vote for him until after boring did so first.
* massive claimed (Town, presumably) One-Shot PGO as his alignment card. Keep in mind there is a Werewolf version of this card.
* I have to agree with Grey that it's rather unlikely that 2/3 Conspiracy Theorist cards would pop up on a 39-card draw. boring claimed Conspiracy Theorist for alignment and Grey's mod-confirmed discard was Conspiracy Theorist. Obviously, this lends more credence to Grey in this situation.
* As noted by many other players, zefiend's #146-147 comes off as overdefensive.
* I don't like at all that the third part of boring's #149 is essentially injecting a large dose of WIFOM into the zefiend discussion.
* In response to me listing the possible power cards zefiend could've drawn, massive votes for zefiend. This is a very sharp contrast with how Grey, boring, LUV, and Screenplay reacted to my post.
* Grey accuses boring of trying to indirectly derail the zefiend wagon in favor of a wagon on me
* In #180, RC expresses willingness to lynch boring and a belief that zefiend is town. He then urges LUV to vote boring, while keeping his own vote on me. Odd.
* While I still townread Grey, I find it odd that despite "fishing for bad votes" and apparently hitting on me, he didn't have a problem with massive's vote for zefiend slightly earlier
* Despite voting for and scumreading me, LUV apparently missed my hop onto the zefiend wagon by a whole two pages
* Grey does a complete 180 on zefiend page ~9-10. While odd, this seems in keeping with Grey's character, at least as far as I'm aware
* In #233, RC expresses bafflement that anyone would be townreading him at that point. While at the time I personally did view RC's play as extremely erratic and very slightly suspicious, upon a re-read I feel more confident in townreading RC by this point
* By #262, Keyser apparently scumreads 6 players, alban being the only player of them he names.
* Transcend started out very active, but his activity became sporadic after a short time
* In #284, Grey switches his vote to Screeplay. This is a pretty reasonable vote IMO, since Screenplay has mostly been making posts every now and then that contribute little to nothing. After having not made a post in over 100 posts, Screenplay reacts to this vote immediately. IMO a sign of active lurking.
* Interestingly, I think zefiend makes a good point in #297. In general I like zefiend's page 12-13 activity. In fact, his pointing out of massive's bad vote earlier while others apparently missed it probably makes me townread him now.
* #324 is Grey's Mass Redirector claim. While I can see a potential scum motivation for this claim (making rival scum factions fear their kills could be redirected to themselves or a buddy) I find it more likely to be town-motivated. If Grey was scum, he could easily have let the action go through without claiming and let the town investigative/protective roles stew in their confusion the next day. Additionally, the potential scum motivation can ALSO apply to a town motivation.
* In #325, PimHel reappears and question's alban's reasons for giving a "possible tactic for scum to use." Yet, if PimHel is caught up as he claims, he should know that alban was the second-to-last person to claim their alignment card. And since he townreads zefiend (the last player left to claim, who refuses to claim), there is no reason to throw shade about a "possible scum tactic" when everyone else has already committed to a truth or a lie.
* As I wondered at the time, Keyser saying he'd "hoped not to have to vote D1" is really strange. At the time I thought it might be role-related, but there don't seem to be any PRs tied to their vote in the deck
* In #365, Grey apparently forgets he's already voting for Screenplay
* I find Transcend's #391-393 questionable. Especially since he suddenly released a flurry of activity after a minor, joking suspicion was thrown at him. Though his justification for the Screenplay vote in #397 is fine, so I'm probably overthinking this one.
* Then again, three of my more confident townreads quickly turn their attention to him, so...
* boring always has her options open when the wind changes, it seems to me

I've realigned my reads. At the moment I'm willing to lynch boring, massive, LUV, or Screenplay. Drixx and PimHel to a lesser extent, because lurking.

For the time being I will park here: VOTE: massive

[Wraith]

You know what? I'm just going to stop posting today, since clearly nobody likes when I try to contribute.

[Wraith]

boring always has her options open when the wind changes, it seems to me

This describes me as a human, FYI. I can't imagine existing with the sheer amount of arrogance required to believe I'm the only person who can be right.

In all seriousness, Wraith, I'm struck by your vote. I'm the only really active player in your scum list. That makes me the most threatening, and my flip the most informative, doesn't it? So why on earth are you voting a relative lurker?

A similar reason as why I changed my mind and voted for zefiend earlier, though that didn't work out (but TBH I'm not concerned with forcing an alignment card claim from him anymore).

Stating outright why I'm voting who I'm voting today will largely defeat the purpose of those votes. That said, it's been 24 hours since several players shifted their suspicions to him and msssive still hasn't reappeared.

[Wraith]

Also I want to bring attention to Screenplay's vote in particular being some hot garbage

And I'll amend my comment on massive that he has reappeared to demand a case on him be presented before disappearing again. Are we going to let him get away with a garbage opportunistic vote and not contributing because he's lurking like crazy again?

[Wraith]

Considering how many scum have been hardcore lurkers in every game I've played since becoming active again, I'm done giving that a pass

[Wraith]

Obviously there's scum off my current wagon

Wraith is my best bet imo.

Don't remember him trying to sort me at all this game, when in the thing mafia, he spearheaded my mislynch.

Two reasons:

1. Not see you as particularly scummy this game, at least not compared to some other players

2. Literally every time I've tried to scum hunt some chucklefucks push a wagon on me

But since the ideal strategy here is to sit back and say nothing while everyone else gives you a pass, I'm gonna just do that.

[Wraith]

I mean people are voting me for try to contribute and they're voting me for proclaiming my intention to lurk. Funny enough I lose heat when I actually shut my mouth for extended periods since people get distracted by other wagons and then regain it when I point that out in a way that's deliberately inflammatory.

That tells me that the people who keep flipping their votes to me and then onto the next wagon of the day are really just looking for easy lynchbait than actual scum. When I get home tonight MAYBE I'll call out particular offenders (COUGH SCREENPLAY COUGH), if I feel like it.

But until then people can either stop pussyfooting around and lynch me before I sink too much effort into this game or move on, since I'm just going to keep saying whatever I feel like saying.

[Wraith]

He's already contradicted his claim with that day vig kill.
I still want to hear him full claim before N1.
I'm guessing 3rd party scum day vig.

Pray tell, how did I contradict my claim? Dayvig is not inherently pro-town, especially when you have terrible Townies practically begging to be vigged.

I'm an Underdog One-Shot Dayvig. Now just a Vanilla Townie.

Liar.

I'm the Underdog

[Wraith]

VOTE: zefiend

[Wraith]

Since I'm town now I'm considering fullclaiming my power as well. I'd like input.

[Wraith]

In case this got missed:

ZEFIEND IS A BIG FAT LIAR. I AM THE REAL UNDERDOG

[Wraith]

Since I'm town now I'm considering fullclaiming my power as well. I'd like input.

Full roleclaim unnecessary.
Ah, so you started the game as third party scum, now reborn as town...
...and the VT alignment claim was a red herring until you knew which team you were on.

Yup

[Wraith]

Since I'm town now I'm considering fullclaiming my power as well. I'd like input.

Full roleclaim unnecessary.
Ah, so you started the game as third party scum, now reborn as town...
...and the VT alignment claim was a red herring until you knew which team you were on.

Hang on a sec... why are you assuming 3rd party? Couldn't he have been on a scum team?

Underdog is a third party role. I start as Survivor and when the first person dies during the Day, I join their faction.

[Wraith]

Underdog is an alignment that changes when the first day kill happens. Hence why I didn't claim my alignment card. Dayvig is a role that allowed me to shoot Transcend.

I shot him because I genuinely thought he was scum or 3P, and I like playing as scum or 3P more (lots of people can verify this, and you can also check TBD Mafia for proof that I prefer 3P). So shooting scum would have allowed me to coast the rest of the game. Instead, I'm now gonna get mislynched as a VT and likely lose the game, considering what I'm seeing so far.

Wraith is confirmed scum for ccing me for literally no reason, because Underdog is not revealed when I die. Just lynch/vig him tomorrow. That's why I said I

should

have shot Wraith, because I now know he's scum and could have gone along with my strategy.

Good thing you have a 0% chance of flipping Town then.

Even without my counterclaim, your claim makes absolutely no sense. Why would an Underdog Dayvig shoot D1? It would mean you are choosing to join a faction you have yourself directly weakened.

You also lied about having a neutral power, since Dayvig can only be Town-aligned or Scum-aligned.

Okay, so I think this is a good time to get reads from Zefiend, and any updates Wraith might have to his reads.

* I was right about Screenplay so points to me, yay!
* For the moment I'm more willing to give massive a pass, since his votes look pretty good in hindsight and I can better appreciate his "wait-and-see" approach now.
* boring clearly got duplicate alignments in the cards he didn't discard. Since she discarded Werewolf, I'm more willing to lean Town for now, but it's not definitive.
* I've realized there's a critical flaw in my assuming more likely town motivation in Grey claiming Lightning Rod in advance, since if he was lone scum in his faction or third party he could have done the same for reasons of spreading WIFOM. That said, I still am pretty confident in townreading him for the moment.
* Keyser really wanting to avoid voting is still really strange, but at the moment I'm also confidently townreading him.

Other than that, my reads are back out of whack. Besides the 100% scum zefiend, I think right now I lean toward LUV or Drixx as scum, but I need to review those ISOs (especially Drixx). Alban and PimHel are also still lurking.

[Wraith]

* I've realized there's a critical flaw in my assuming more likely town motivation in Grey claiming Lightning Rod in advance

That never happened.

Whoops, I meant Mass Redirector.

[Wraith]

If zefiend flips Town I'll volunteer for that and also vote myself tomorrow if I somehow live.

[Wraith]

Indeed. Most annoying.

[Wraith]

Like, there is no possible way an Alien Bloodsucker acting last night was scum.

Every expectation was that all night actions would be redirected to one player. The towniest fucking thing possible is to make that player immortal.

Does it cost us a vote? Yes... but it also preserves a strong town voice! No fucking way scum does that.

So you're claiming the Bloodsucker is acting as a town Vig. That's a pretty bold assumption.

That being said at this point I'm pretty willing to sheep Grey. I'm taking one side on the WIFOM and sticking to it, plus he's making the most active effort to solve the game.

VOTE: Drixx

I at least want a claim.

I also still think LUV is scum.

[Wraith]

I'm not claiming any more than I also have today.

Why?

[Wraith]

Dammit Keyser, I was in the middle of updating that myself.

[Wraith]

Also I hate to rain on Grey's parade and considered keeping mum about it, but considering it's right there in the claim matrix it would be easy for scum to figure this out anyways.

Since Transcend was presumably telling the truth about his alignment card being Bulletproof Townie, and there's only one BP Townie card in the deck, I'm rather skeptical of Grey's claim and his reluctance to fullclaim right now.

[Wraith]

I keep bloody forgetting the power card doesn't influence the alignment card.

[Wraith]

@WhemeStar: Why did you choose to kill Boring?

Right now I want to lynch one of LUV, Drixx, PimHel, or RC. Of course, I have to wait until Drixx's fullclaim to decide which it is.

[Wraith]

Hey Wheme, since your last few posts are potentially confusing, can you fullclaim what cards alban drew?

Also would Bloodsucker work on a BP?

[Wraith]

I can't answer that Wraith

Answer which one?

[Wraith]

Same, right now I'm pretty confident in a townbloc of myself, WhemeStar, Keyser, and Grey + boring's voice.

[Wraith]

VOTE: Wraith

this is scum.

Considering treating this as a scumclaim

[Wraith]

What does underdog do

I start as a Survivor and my alignment changes to that of the first Day death. In this case, Transcend.

[Wraith]

Jerry presumably thought you were asking if the target would be able to keep using their action in future nights.

I mean the Bloodsucking is essentially just a nightkill. Nightkills don't prevent their target's action from being carried out, the same applies here.

[Wraith]

Considering you're already outed there's no reason for you not to fullclaim, dude.

[Wraith]

Well WhemeStar, stumping or no, you are a killing role so it would be a pretty shitty thing if you deliberately killed off a townread. Like she can still talk and all but you took away a town vote in a setup that doesn't have implicit balance.

@boring: Honestly I disagree with your analysis of the Bloodsucker role, I think taking Bloodsucker is a pretty decent towntell. It's something of a self-defeating role for a scum faction - when you kill someone, you tend to want them out, not able to continue contributing to the discussion. But in town hands it's a buffed Vigilante - you might be shooting in the dark, but with that role if your reads miss and you hit town they can at least still contribute to the discussion. Hence why I believe alban/Wheme's claim - it makes a lot more sense to take the role with a town alignment than a scum alignment, killing role or no.

[Wraith]

But can scum kill someone who's already dead

If you are killing townreads I will policy lynch you

[Wraith]

So.... Is no one else seeing WhemeStar's outright contradictions, or does no one actually care?

I haven't had time at all to pore over his posts in detail so if you've noticed them it would be nice if you pointed them out.

[Wraith]

Anyways

VOTE: PimHel

[Wraith]

Anyways

VOTE: PimHel

Why are you scum reading Pim?

Lurking

I actually posted that before getting by head back in order for this game - I originally intended to switch my vote to RC for the roleblock claim by massive. But if Pim is going to keep lurking I'm fine where I am at the moment.

[Wraith]

I have no bloody idea, I don't usually check that kind of thing.

[Wraith]

If PimHel is going to have to be replaced I'm going to shift my vote to RC based on massive's claim.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Wraith]

Wraith regardless of your claim status if you're going to push on me then I don't have an issue lynching you here.

You're already voting me and haven't changed. Considering I'm the closest thing to confirmed town we have, combining that with massive's claim and the night results paints a clear enough picture for me to consider you scum.

[Wraith]

Is everything up-to-date?:

Spoiler: Claim matrix for reference

ALIVE

Wraith:

Survivor Mason

- Underdog - Town power?

WhemeStar:

Vanilla Townie

- FBI Agent - Alien Bloodsucker
-Grey-:

Conspiracy Theorist

- Cop Lover - Bulletproof?
massive:

Mafia One-shot Governor

- One-shot Paranoid Gun Owner - Roleblocker? [N1: Blocked RadiantCowbells]

Keyser Söze:

Mafia Fruit Vendor

- Vanilla Townie - Scum power?
Lil Uzi Vert:

Black Goo

- Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie - ?
Drixx:

One-shot Unlynchable Townie

- Retired Marine - ?
PimHel:

Wereparrot

- Bodyguard - ?
RadiantCowbells:

Hider

- Doctor - ?

DEAD

Transcend:

Nurse

- Bulletproof Townie - Bloodhound
boring:

Alpha Werewolf

- Conspiracy Theorist - Tracker [N1: Drixx visited -Grey-]

Srceenplay:

Cult One-shot Goomaker

- Lyncher
ɀefiend:

Lover

- Jester - One-shot Dayvig

I want to bring this back to the front of the thread because something just struck me:

RadiantCowbells:

Hider

- Doctor - ?

I really wonder what power was so intriguing that it took precedence over Doctor. He had a chance to be a Town Doctor by making Hider his alignment but instead discarded Hider and used Doctor for his alignment.

Or he's lying about his alignment card.

[Wraith]

Can Drixx just say whether Grey is not Mafia / is not werewolf / is not alien etc...

I don't know why he is calling Grey out-right town. This is a multiscum game.

This would help clear things up. I want to trust Grey's instincts here but I also don't want to risk killing a claimed investigative when we have a less risky possibility (IMO) for the night shooter in RC.

[Wraith]

Here's how this is going to go. You say one more word about how I am scum and I will claim and I will make sure one of us gets lynched today. Decision is yours.

Considering Keyser has already spelled out very sound (and ultimately, correct) reasons for why my claim is true, that you continue to tunnel me (again, the closest thing to confirmed town in this game) doesn't look town-motivated whatsoever.

[Wraith]

Okay, so this picked up suddenly. Glad I could be of service.

If Drixx was actually town, he'd have dropped his claim like it was hot because there is no chance he continues living as town after being forced to claim as an investigative even as a soft.

Drixx is buying time. Stop selling it to him.

This makes a lot of sense. Drixx soft-claiming an investigative but not explicitly claiming his card has been rubbing me the wrong way all day.

I was legitimate when I claimed supersaint.

VOTE: Wraith

Either we're lynching him or he's hammering me today. no one else is getting lynched.

Oh please. I'd volunteer but that would mean if you are telling the truth about your alignment (which I doubt) then that would mean two townies dying instead of one. Which means you are willing to let your tunnel of me get in the way of your wincon, which is certainly not a pro-town move.

But at the same time, I'm backed into a corner here, because if you are telling the truth then you could just as easily kill a town player with a far more useful role than myself. So I have no choice but to volunteer.

So the only option is that I call your bluff. If you're telling the truth, then Town is probably crippled, but I have absolutely no power to change that beyond not lynching you, and I'm not going to let your scummy behavior slide just because of your claim. But if you're lying, we lynch scum. So yes, I'll hammer you if you are the lynch today.

And I'm much more inclined to think you're lying because if you were telling the truth about your claim and genuinely thought I was scum, you would be pushing for your own lynch because it would sacrifice just you in order to kill a "for-sure" scum player. So I think your push for my lynch is completely disingenuous, and is motivated by you being scum and blufing a Super Saint claim.

[Wraith]

Also UNVOTE:

I'll follow through on that promise

[Wraith]

Additionally it's entirely possible that RC isn't bluffing about being Supersaint, but is actually a Scum Supersaint. In which case it's doubly important that I do the hammer and take the bullet. So there's no excuse for me not to.

VOTE: Drixx

Grey has convinced me to rejoin this one. But I'll hammer RC if given the opportunity.

[Wraith]

In fact, it's even more likely that RC is Scum Supersaint than bluffing entirely about being Supersaint, because his first instinct was to push for my lynch rather than his own. Which would get the double-whammy of lynching near-confirmed town and preserving the Supersaint shot for later.

[Wraith]

Boy am I glad this changed. I feel a lot more confident in townreading Grey right now. I had a tinfoil theory in the back of my mind making me doubt that was just fucking agonizing.

[Wraith]

993 is a good post...

But my #2 stands.

No he's actually correct. We both misread it but it was extremely easy to misread it, he worded it poorly.

No, Drixx is small potatoes. He claimed fucking bloodhound. If there's multiple scum he will be crosskilled if there's not he will back himself into a corner and be lynched for it.

Wraith is hiding behind an easy claim to make (no fucking way underdog dayvigs day 1) and being considered confirmed town by several people and his reads are bad enough that he doesn't get nightkilled ever

He's essentially claiming that zefiend's fakeclaim was obvious because an Underdog dayvigging is totally counter-productive, which is true. Which makes my counterclaim an "easy decision" in RC's eyes.

But the problem here is that Grey was the first to point that out, and

I myself pointed that out

. I actually thought I was the first to point it out because I claimed immediately upon seeing zefiend's fakeclaim without reading any further.

HI EVERYBODY! I'M GOING TO USE MY ALIGNMENT CHANGING ROLE TO CRIPPLE THE ALIGNMENT I'M CHANGING INTO

Underdog is an alignment that changes when the first day kill happens. Hence why I didn't claim my alignment card. Dayvig is a role that allowed me to shoot Transcend.

I shot him because I genuinely thought he was scum or 3P, and I like playing as scum or 3P more (lots of people can verify this, and you can also check TBD Mafia for proof that I prefer 3P). So shooting scum would have allowed me to coast the rest of the game. Instead, I'm now gonna get mislynched as a VT and likely lose the game, considering what I'm seeing so far.

Wraith is confirmed scum for ccing me for literally no reason, because Underdog is not revealed when I die. Just lynch/vig him tomorrow. That's why I said I

should

have shot Wraith, because I now know he's scum and could have gone along with my strategy.

Good thing you have a 0% chance of flipping Town then.

Even without my counterclaim, your claim makes absolutely no sense. Why would an Underdog Dayvig shoot D1? It would mean you are choosing to join a faction you have yourself directly weakened.

You also lied about having a neutral power, since Dayvig can only be Town-aligned or Scum-aligned.

Okay, so I think this is a good time to get reads from Zefiend, and any updates Wraith might have to his reads.

* I was right about Screenplay so points to me, yay!
* For the moment I'm more willing to give massive a pass, since his votes look pretty good in hindsight and I can better appreciate his "wait-and-see" approach now.
* boring clearly got duplicate alignments in the cards he didn't discard. Since she discarded Werewolf, I'm more willing to lean Town for now, but it's not definitive.
* I've realized there's a critical flaw in my assuming more likely town motivation in Grey claiming Lightning Rod in advance, since if he was lone scum in his faction or third party he could have done the same for reasons of spreading WIFOM. That said, I still am pretty confident in townreading him for the moment.
* Keyser really wanting to avoid voting is still really strange, but at the moment I'm also confidently townreading him.

Other than that, my reads are back out of whack. Besides the 100% scum zefiend, I think right now I lean toward LUV or Drixx as scum, but I need to review those ISOs (especially Drixx). Alban and PimHel are also still lurking.

And to corroborate my claim that I claimed without reading anything after zefiend's claim (wow that was a mouthful, also it's totally up to you to believe if I'm telling the truth here), I cite this Grey post:

In case this got missed:

ZEFIEND IS A BIG FAT LIAR. I AM THE REAL UNDERDOG

In case it got missed:

IT'S FUCKING IRRELEVANT BECAUSE HIS CLAIM IS A BLATANT LIE ANYWAY

[Wraith]

Like that's an amazing CC situation. If someone ELSE ccs you just say 'OH I JUST KNEW THIS FUCK WAS SCUM AND DIDN'T WANT HIM TO SLIP AWAY.' If they don't people write you off as conftown.
His push on Drixx for not taking unlynchable makes no sense, his push on me is awful, his play makes no sense, his all-analysis no-content overview of my ss claim is off, the threatrics of it make my stomach turn.

And I have played with Wraith and can confirm that he does in fact have the balls to fakeclaim and if you read 200 you'd know that to.

I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring up that exact situation. Even though it's kind of shitty to push my own meta.

In NY200 I fakeclaimed in a way I explicitly described in the Scum and Dead PT as a "Hail Mary", because I knew it was a longshot that it would work but had no real choice because I was backed into a corner.

Do I strike you as the type of player to throw a Hail Mary when not backed into a corner, as in this case? Really?

[Wraith]

Wraith my attitude here is that if there's even a 1% chance that you're scum in a slot people are reading as confirmed town it has to be treated as an absolute certainty ala Batman vs Superman.

That was literally portrayed as a fallacious argument

You are citing a fallacious argument from fiction to support your suspicions of me.

This is maddening.

[Wraith]

That actually reminds me that my actual intended fakeclaim for if I was backed into a corner D1 (a very real possibility) was Judas.

[Wraith]

Yeah I was weighing the possibilities when thinking it up. TBH though I was more concerned with potentially drawing a nightkill from it. All I was concerned with was escaping a lynch D1 so I didn't get eliminated without a faction.

[Wraith]

RC has really good points about Wraith. I just caught up, and it looks like he overplayed himself. The early "defeated" AtE behavior melted away when he felt he was "confirmed town". Now that he's being questioned again, we're seeing yet another side, with little pockets that hint at being cleverer than he's let on.

This possible ducking and weaving is worrisome. His voting pattern is worrisome.

RC's rallying cries look very town.

I still don't know if I believe Drixx. It's super plausible, but also something I think scum!Drixx would be perfectly capable of inventing. I've got a whole roll of aluminum over here, but I'm not sure he's the best choice for lynch today.

Now, speaking of foil, is Keyser going to be bothered to vote today?

Well this is depressing, because you think I being clever and playing dumb but since I'm indeed town, it's indeed just me being dumb per your judgment.

If Grey is going to back off Drixx now, I'm going back to RC.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Even if I agree that his recent posts have been better, I can't let the WIFOM of his claim combined with his pushes of me go without direct address.

I'm outsourcing whether or not I hammer this to Wisdom of the Crowd. If majority of players want me to hammer and take the potential bullet, I'll do it. Considering that even the Stump is starting to doubt me that might actually be the best option. If they would rather Grey take the bullet in his vest instead, I'll abide by that too.

[Wraith]

Wait a fucking minute.

The nightkill still got stopped somehow.

And if we're now giving Drixx benefit of the doubt, then the only possibilities are a truly one in a million scum no-kill gambit or that massive is telling the truth and blocked RC from nightkilling.

So in a scenario where Drixx is assumed truthful it's 99% likely that RC is scum.

[Wraith]

Oh or Whemestar is Scum.

Fuck.

[Wraith]

Yeah boring it would be REALLY nice if you'd point out WhemeStar's contradictions about now.

[Wraith]

And before you say "do the legwork you lazy bum" take two things into account:

1. You're confirmed town so anything you say is inherently trustworthy
2. Why make me waste my time when you've already noticed these things

[Wraith]

Or scum simply, y'know,

no killed

because they were worried that it would end up targetted at them. There's not much of a point targetting into suspected mass redirect.

Oh for fuck's sake I completely forgot about that,

UNVOTE:

ARGH

It all seemed so clear just an hour ago. Now I'm lost again.

[Wraith]

You can't be serious

[Wraith]

I mean when the only confirmed town voice thinks I'm scum playing dumb and my most confident townread votes for me I just don't know how to react. It's a gut-punch.

[Wraith]

You can't be serious

You can't possibly have forgotten the possibility of a gambit that you yourself mentioned just five posts prior.

It's probably scummy for me to point this out myself but fuck it.

then the only possibilities are a truly one in a million scum no-kill gambit

Or scum simply, y'know,

no killed

because they were worried that it would end up targetted at them. There's not much of a point targetting into suspected mass redirect.

Oh for fuck's sake I completely forgot about that,

UNVOTE:

ARGH

It all seemed so clear just an hour ago. Now I'm lost again.

VOTE: Wraith

This is called consistency.

[Wraith]

Um, yes

[Wraith]

I can't even respond more articulately to that, I'm just too exhausted.

And in general I'm pretty defeated at this point, I just want out.

[Wraith]

So I slept on things and now I'm really drawn back to this.

Is everything up-to-date?:

Spoiler: Claim matrix for reference

ALIVE

Wraith:

Survivor Mason

- Underdog - Town power?

WhemeStar:

Vanilla Townie

- FBI Agent - Alien Bloodsucker
-Grey-:

Conspiracy Theorist

- Cop Lover - Bulletproof?
massive:

Mafia One-shot Governor

- One-shot Paranoid Gun Owner - Roleblocker? [N1: Blocked RadiantCowbells]

Keyser Söze:

Mafia Fruit Vendor

- Vanilla Townie - Scum power?
Lil Uzi Vert:

Black Goo

- Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie - ?
Drixx:

One-shot Unlynchable Townie

- Retired Marine - ?
PimHel:

Wereparrot

- Bodyguard - ?
RadiantCowbells:

Hider

- Doctor - ?

DEAD

Transcend:

Nurse

- Bulletproof Townie - Bloodhound
boring:

Alpha Werewolf

- Conspiracy Theorist - Tracker [N1: Drixx visited -Grey-]

Srceenplay:

Cult One-shot Goomaker

- Lyncher
ɀefiend:

Lover

- Jester - One-shot Dayvig

I want to bring this back to the front of the thread because something just struck me:

RadiantCowbells:

Hider

- Doctor - ?

I really wonder what power was so intriguing that it took precedence over Doctor. He had a chance to be a Town Doctor by making Hider his alignment but instead discarded Hider and used Doctor for his alignment.

Or he's lying about his alignment card.

If you've drawn three town cards (or two town and one scum) - Hider, Doctor, and Supersaint - and you've decided to go Town...why pick Supersaint over Doctor?

I know earlier RC has an outburst about the "absurdity" of picking Doctor when in the last GIM game he was so obvtown he got dayvigged immediately, but...really?

If you're Town and have the choice between Doctor and Supersaint, how on earth is picking the latter a pro-town move? Supersaint can easily backfire on Town,

especially

in a setup like this that doesn't have implicit balance.

So that's what's bugging me now.

[Wraith]

Wraith, why did you want to full roleclaim as soon as you countered with Underdog?

Because my power is probably better used when guided by Wisdom of the Crowd

[Wraith]

Wraith, tell me about your LUV scum read.

Aw geez that's like ancient history at this point. I need to review the ISO when I get the time in order to jog my memory.

[Wraith]

The fact you're building a playstyle around dodging VCA is enough to make me happy to push your lynch through anywhere I see it happening because that's pro-scum behavior.

Edit

Isn't VCA entirely useless in a setup like this?

[Wraith]

@mod

: does SuperSaint shot bypass bulletproof?

A Supersaint shot would kill a Bulletproof player.

Oh well that settles it, I'm definitely the hammer if we lynch RC

[Wraith]

Is RC even a Supersaint?

I would be very surprised if he was a Town Supersaint. He's either bluffing entirely as Town, bluffing entirely as Scum, or a Scum Supersaint.

Bluffing or no, there's now no reason why I shouldn't be the hammer.

[Wraith]

Is RC even a Supersaint?

I would be very surprised if he was a Town Supersaint. He's either bluffing entirely as Town, bluffing entirely as Scum, or a Scum Supersaint.

Bluffing or no, there's now no reason why I shouldn't be the hammer.

I will lay out my entire train of thought here to avoid any confusion.

If he's a Town Supersaint, it means he eschewed a Town Doctor combination for a role that can very easily backfire on and cripple the Town in a random setup like this. So I dismiss that theory out of hand because it doesn't seem like a pro-Town action.

If he's bluffing entirely as Town, then there's two possibilities - he lied about his alignment card, or he didn't. I find no pro-Town reason for him to lie about Town Doctor being his alignment card, so I dismiss that out of hand. But if he's telling the truth about his alignment card as town, then as Grey said - why not discard Doctor (not unique) in favor of Hider as your alignment, which is unique. And if he chose to use Town Doctor as his alignment then the power must have been even better...but he claimed Supersaint, IMO nowhere near as useful as a Town Doctor. Why not claim your actual power instead of bluffing a power that specifically punishes a lynch? So something doesn't add up, hence why I don't favor this theory.

I think him bluffing entirely as Scum is a strong theory. He could be lying about his alignment card here but not necessarily about drawing it - since IIRC he didn't specify if he drew Town Doctor or Scum Doctor, he could have used Doctor for his power card and a Scum card for his alignment and just switched the two around. This even works if he's not bluffing about drawing Supersaint - he could have a Werewolf Doctor combination.

Equally plausible is that he's telling the truth about being a Supersaint, but lying slightly about his alignment card. He could have possibly drawn Scum Doctor and Supersaint, and become a Scum Supersaint - a very powerful and plausible role combination IMO.

So I favor one of the latter two theories, obviously.

[Wraith]

I've liked massive for town since d1.

Wish I could townread Keyser, but anyone that plays like scum gets read as Scum.

me too thanks (massive is town, evolved from my D1 scumread)

If my vote wasn't welded to Keyser, I'd be voting Wraith.

:X

[Wraith]

Also my read on Grey has developed from skeptical town to tinfoil scum to certain town

[Wraith]

Oh geez I'm in prod territory.

Sorry, it's a combination of being busy IRL and not having much more to say at the moment. I'm pretty committed to my current course.

[Wraith]

I will say that RC has a point that picking Supersaint as scum and then claiming it would be a very unorthodox strategy since it likely guarantees death before LyLo. But at the same time, that makes more sense if he's solo scum, but admittedly since he's picking in a vacuum there's no guarantee he'd have a partner, so since I assume RC is rational he'd be picking under the assumption he'll be alone just to be safe. That said, I think it's all meaningless because I really do think he's bluffing entirely and isn't a Supersaint.

There's also the possibility that we have WhemeStar stump him tonight, if we'd prefer to lynch someone else and don't want to sacrifice me in case RC isn't bluffing. It also presents the possibility of keeping RC around if I'm entirely wrong. But at the same time this can easily be interpreted as me trying to "weasel" my way out of potentially killing myself with the promised hammer, so it's wisdom of the crowd here. I'll still hammer if we decide not to go with this.

[Wraith]

I will say that RC has a point that picking Supersaint as scum and then claiming it would be a very unorthodox strategy since it likely guarantees death before LyLo.

Or rather, death

in

LyLo.

[Wraith]

This game has badly stagnated again.

If people aren't going to bloody well pick between RC or myself, they need to advance alternatives. It feels like barely anyone has voted today outside the core trio of me, RC, and Grey.

[Wraith]

I should say now that, while Mafia is an emotional game, that being excessively rude is not acceptable.

If RC is town it's disappointing but I guess I can understand. If he's Town I really am losing my mind here.

But if RC is scum he's just doing his job.

[Wraith]

Needless to say, consider RC to have +1 vote from me. I'm simply holding mine off for the hammer.

Equally needless to say, absolutely no one should hammer except for me, in case this wagon gets rolling again overnight. I also have a very, very big day tomorrow in terms of a job interview so I don't know how active I'll be.

[Wraith]

Needless to say, consider RC to have +1 vote from me. I'm simply holding mine off for the hammer.

Equally needless to say, absolutely no one should hammer except for me, in case this wagon gets rolling again overnight. I also have a very, very big day tomorrow in terms of a job interview so I don't know how active I'll be.

Just vote him, he's not a SuperSaint. He's just a liar.

Like I've said before there's still a risk he is a Scum Supersaint of some variant.

I'm not risking a more important townie catching a bullet.

[Wraith]

Wraith you talked in postgame of 200 like you were good and deserved to be treated with respect. You'll get respect when you earn it. vote grey.

Considering that wasn't a great scum game by me that's debatable.

That said, like hell I'm voting Grey at this point.

[Wraith]

I really don't think I win this 1v1 so when Wheme gives me his word that Grey dies overnight I am going to selfvote and get this over with.

Wraith I had the confidence to claim a fake guilty on you. I have fakeclaimed 10 guilties on this site and all have been on scum. I have that confidence here.

Call this my eleventh fake guilty hail mary scumread that isn't going wrong. Grey is scum.

The difference is that even your fake guilty in NY200 wasn't enough, it was really that you actually did have ground to stand on since I had unconsciously slipped a couple times in early D1. So even though a lot of people doubted your fake guilty there the original merit of your case combined with your force of personality managed to push the lynch through in the end. Plus, you also did have me dead to rights because of the N1 Roleblock that blocked our team's nightkill; even though you claimed that had no bearing on your suspicions of me, even now I find it very hard to believe that it had

zero

influence.

But here you don't have that original meritorious ground, at least not in my opinion. Whatever doubts I had of Grey earlier in this day have since been dispelled by his play. If I'm wrong, and he's scum, then I guess I just have to come to terms with the shame of being a Village Idiot this game. But I think I'm right.

[Wraith]

I've had my own pet tinfoil theory concerning Grey for a while now. In it he was originally scum for his habitual lying but it's since shifted.

But in light of recent events it doesn't make nearly as much sense anymore...

[Wraith]

o shit

Okay at first I thought the mod comment was directed at RC and myself

But now I can see yeah we were secondary.

This shit is getting too real between you two.

[Wraith]

I was townreading Wheme earlier because of the circumstances surrounding the claim but the three factors have probably convinced me he's lynchable today:

1. Bloodsucked boring for apparently no legitimate reason and doesn't seem concerned about killing off town votes. Also as Grey said seemed very concerned about boring getting her N1 Tracker results for some reason.
2. Making no attempt to solve the game and pretty much just sheeping other players. In fact he was mostly sheeping Grey until Grey pushed Keyser, yet later was fine joining RC's wagon on Grey.
3. Other inconsistencies that Grey has pointed out (such as his comments on AtE)

At the same time though I'm still full of doubt because of one simple thing:

I agree with grey on how does it make sense for a mafia player to pick bloodsucker. My role as scum is weaker then a normal NK

He's right. Bloodsucker is a weaker nightkill for scum but a stronger one for Vig. It makes a lot more sense for a Town-aligned player to pick it than Scum-aligned.

[Wraith]

Wraith, tell me about your LUV scum read.

Aw geez that's like ancient history at this point. I need to review the ISO when I get the time in order to jog my memory.

I can't remember if you followed this up yet...

I've been busy. But LUV crept back up on my radar last night because he's been conspicuously absent from these conversations for a VERY long period.

[Wraith]

I think I've found the smoking gun.

I NO TARGETED TO AVOID POTENTIAL PGO BULLSHIT DONT DO THAT SHIT EVER AGAIN

I was legitimate when I claimed supersaint.

VOTE: Wraith

Either we're lynching him or he's hammering me today. no one else is getting lynched.

That settles things for me.

[Wraith]

I think I've found the smoking gun.

I NO TARGETED TO AVOID POTENTIAL PGO BULLSHIT DONT DO THAT SHIT EVER AGAIN

I was legitimate when I claimed supersaint.

VOTE: Wraith

Either we're lynching him or he's hammering me today. no one else is getting lynched.

That settles things for me.

[Wraith]

I am killing RC tonight. If I am dead and he isn't I want him power lynched tomorrow.

k

VOTE: WhemeStar

[Wraith]

I'm fine with being roleblocked

RC has changed his story or been caught lying/contradicting himself so many times I cannot trust a word that comes out of his mouth anymore.

Just yesterday I was convinced there

must

be at least one scum among RC, Wheme, and ThinkBig. Possibly two, with RC and TB being the most likely two. But Wheme's handling of Grey's big push against him made me discard that. At this point all three are so scummy I just can't trust any of them. I'm fine with lynching any of them. I'm just ready to move on.

[Wraith]

Hello.

I just replaced me. Someone fill me in on what has happened.

Please fullclaim first.

[Wraith]

Are we treating this as a massclaim or are we just doing this for the three wagon candidates of the day?

[Wraith]

I feel slimy saying this but

I'm suspicious that momo didn't claim immediately, but instead needed to know what the matrix is and how the setup works. It comes off to me as him buying time and pertinent knowledge for a fakeclaim.

[Wraith]

I wouldn't actively oppose a Wraith lynch tomorrow.

Have you, like, been deliberately ignoring and not giving feedback on my posts for the last few days? Because that is what this has felt like.

[Wraith]

I wouldn't actively oppose a Wraith lynch tomorrow.

Have you, like, been deliberately ignoring and not giving feedback on my posts for the last few days? Because that is what this has felt like.

Really dude?

Really?

What, aside from your survivalist commentary, has there been to respond to?

Do you HONESTLY want my feedback on your play over the last few days?

Think long and hard before you open that can of worms.

Oh I have no illusions that it is a very negative impression, but when I'm trying to make a point (such as "RC was blatantly lying and here's proof" or "I think momo is trying to fakeclaim") I would at least like some token commentary considering I townread you. Just on individual issues like that it would be fucking nice if I could get a "nah I don't think so" or a "oh shit nice catch" or whatever the fuck one time or another.

It's a big part of why I'm pretty much stopped caring about who we lynch, because 3/4 active players are my scumreads and literally everyone else is either dead or lurking.

[Wraith]

Like holy shit can I fucking get vigged?

I just don't fucking care anymore if 3/4 active players are scumreads and the fourth is deliberately ignoring me because he thinks I'm a fucking VI.

Just get me the fuck out because I'm tired of the nagging voice in my head that I need t contribute to this shitfest considering what it's turned into. No fucking offense to the mod, it's not his fucking fault.

yes I've been drinking

[Wraith]

I can't help but feel like I've been getting gaslit through multiple games. That's really all I can say.

[Wraith]

Fuck it, I really can't shake this suspicion

VOTE: momo

[Wraith]

I want momo dead

I'm a One-Shot Gladiator.

[Wraith]

I want momo dead

I'm a One-Shot Gladiator.

Could you lay out your reasoning or link the post for me that states it?

RC was being scummy and his claims (discarded Hider, alignment card Doctor) were very questionable, so pressure swung to him. Then he repeatedly lied and fakeclaimed in increasingly desperate gambits to shift the pressure back to myself or Grey. Then momo replaced into the slot, didn't immediately claim all cards when asked and instead asked for info regarding the setup/claim matrix - slimy a reason for a scumread as that might be, to scumread a replacement player for asking for setup context, considering RC's previous play it reeked to me of scum caught out and needing time and context for a fakeclaim.

And now momo claims One-Shot Townie as his alignment card. Why would RC originally lie about his alignment card being (Town) Doctor? IIRC even RC never wavered that his alignment card was Doctor. So I'm calling this bluff once and for all.

I'm willing to hammer momo to take the bullet in case he and RC weren't bluffing all along, as I said way back when. But if we don't lynch him today and there isn't a plausible alternative lynch advanced, and I'm still alive by nightfall, I will ensure momo is one of the only options tomorrow.

[Wraith]

Keyser, your turn to claim.

If Drixx got no result then clearly someone is lying. Either there's a roleblocker still out there who blocked him, Drixx is lying about his role, or LUV is non-Mafia scum.

I'm choosing to trust Grey implicitly at this point. If I'm wrong we've lost, but it's already a huge longshot at best. So I'm not going to waste time and energy second-guessing myself about Grey and I'm going to focus on everyone else.

[Wraith]

Anyone have ideas how town/scum would/should use One-Shot Governor at MYLO/LYLO?

I don't think it would work. If LUV used his ability to save a scumbuddy that would be a scumclaim and he'd be promptly lynched. So at this point it's of dubious use.

[Wraith]

That said just just from PoE, claim plausibility, and his hardcore D2 lurking, I personally believe LUV is scum. momo is also scum.

It's debatable to me whether or not Keyser is scum. I certainly don't want to lynch him today compared to momo or LUV.

[Wraith]

If Drixx got no result then clearly someone is lying.

Town Roleblocker flipped last night.

Why would Town Roleblocker massive Roleblock claimed Town Cop Drixx?

That's why I think there's either another Roleblocker out there and someone fakeclaimed, or Drixx is fakeclaiming.

[Wraith]

Oh okay, I actually thought you would get No Result if you investigated non-Mafia scum for some reason. Brain fart there.

So that leaves three options:

1. massive for some reason didn't believe Drixx. Since Drixx was very likely Roleblocked in some way yet two nightkills still happened that are unaccounted for, this likely clears Drixx as town.
2. There's a second unclaimed Roleblocker who blocked Drixx. This means someone who has claimed is lying, or it's Keyser.
3. Drixx is completely full of shit, isn't a Cop, and is claiming he was roleblocked to avoid giving out a result that can be refuted.

[Wraith]

I'll also say that on possibility #3, I don't see much of a reason for Drixx to claim roleblock to avoid giving a result if he's fakeclaiming entirely. He could easily get away with pinning a guilty on any number of players (like, literally everyone methinks) and pushing it for a potential win tonight considering how few players remain. So I'm more inclined to believe he is telling the truth and was roleblocked in some way.

[Wraith]

This could still be an incredible gambit.

If we are assuming momo is telling the truth, that means there are still 2 scum out of 5 remaining players. This implies that if we lynch momo town still more than likely loses, so this claim can still push us off lynching momo.

I still advocate lynching momo today but I am willing to go for LUV instead.

Right now Grey is the only player whose judgment I trust. But if you powerlynch me we will lose for sure, whereas a momo lynch still has a chance of hitting scum.

[Wraith]

I agree that a Survivor claim is believable and a shitload of turmoil could've been avoided if he'd just claimed that in the first place.

But I'm just saying, if we're going to lynch an alternative today LUV is my top choice, and I'm making it clear that powerlynching me today will result in a town loss for certain if momo is being truthful.

[Wraith]

And also that momo is a much safer lynch than myself if you decide the choice is between the two of us.

[Wraith]

There was an understood "at least" there since we know there are at least two scum factions remaining.

[Wraith]

Fine then, lose.

[Wraith]

???

Two unclaimed kills?

[Wraith]

Like personally I think there's a maximum of 3, which includes momo

But there's a minimum of 2. I see no reason for another Town Vig not to claim at this point. And I include SKs in the category of scum factions.

[Wraith]

That's my point though. A Survivor claim is believable enough to draw heat off momo and convince us to focus elsewhere even if momo is actually scum.

I'm still hesitant to lynch a believable Survivor claim but it's safer than a shot in the dark - ie, myself, Drixx, Keyser, or Grey. IMO the only acceptable lynches today are momo or LUV.

PREDIT:

That said, my list of lynch priority is, in descending order:

Grey
Drixx
Keyser
LUV
momo

[Wraith]

Yeah, I think it's LUV.

He never even mentioned TB and I feel a Governor would take more interest in the lynch of a town killing role.

[Wraith]

FYI this might be totally irrelevant now but for a long time I had a tinfoil theory that you were Lovers with Keyser and one of you was scum.

This was largely stemming from that you omitted "Bulletproof Alien Lover" from this list:

My power role card was one of:

One-shot Bulletproof Townie
Werewolf One-shot Bulletproof
Serial Killer (Two-shot Bulletproof)
Serial Killer (Immune to Mafia kills)
Serial Killer (Immune to Werewolf kills)
Serial Killer (Immune to Alien & Replicant kills)

And anyone that doesn't understand the value of keeping which one it is from scum is an imbecile.

which I took as deliberate

But since you're so willing to lynch Keyser now I take it that is completely wrong.

Correct?

PREDIT:

Can Governor prevent a lynch after hammer?

[Wraith]

Also I'm going to hold off my vote until we get input from other players.

[Wraith]

VOTE: LUV

[Wraith]

Him actually being a Governor doesn't preclude LUV from being scum

This is fucking frustrating. I think it's too risky to lynch Keyser but I might not have a choice here.

[Wraith]

Oh wait he's claimed One-Shot Unlynchable

VOTE: Keyser

[Wraith]

@Grey: If Keyser isn't fakeclaiming and we can't lynch him today, what the fuck do we do?

Lynch momo to be safe?

[Wraith]

If he hadn't used it today he'd be dead, dude

[Wraith]

Why would lynching momo, claimed Survivor, be a less favorable solution than lynching one of the most likely Townies?

[Wraith]

How does making the "likely town" pool smaller rather than getting rid of a third party make that more likely?

[Wraith]

LUV is such scum. He's trying to WIFOM me into lynching a townread, and is even implying there's only one scumteam even though we know for certain there must be two. He dies tomorrow.

Unless someone convinces me Drixx or Grey are scum there's no fucking chance I'm lynching a townread over a claimed third party.

@Drixx: We still have to lynch Keyser first to pop his Unlynchable. On the off chance we survive through the night, no fucking way do we go into LyLo with an Unlynchable player.

[Wraith]

LUV is such scum. He's trying to WIFOM me into lynching a townread, and is even implying there's only one scum faction even though we know for certain there must be at least two. He dies tomorrow.

EBWOP since Grey is such a stickler for semantic specifics

[Wraith]

Wait a fucking minute.

If there are two scum factions remaining, both kills got blocked or didn't happen N1. RC/momo still got roleblocked and Grey claims BP. Five scenarios:

1. RC/momo is a Survivor; Both teams no-killed because of Grey's Mass Redirector fakeclaim
2. RC/momo is scum; Both teams no-killed because of Grey's fakeclaim
3. RC/momo is scum and was blocked, the other scumteam no-killed because of Grey's fakeclaim
4. RC/momo is a Survivor; one scumteam shot Grey and hit the vest, the other no-killed because of Grey's fakeclaim
5. Both teams killed - RC/momo is scum and was blocked, the other scumteam shot Grey and hit the vest

That settles things for me - we lynch Keyser to pop his Unlynchable for potential LyLo tomorrow (there's no pro-town reason to lie at this point, so if he gets lynched from it he'll almost certainly flip scum) then lynch momo for today

[Wraith]

I expected Unlynchable to work in that if the Unlynchable is hammered it resets the votes and they are no longer a lynch option for the day

@mod: How would Unlynchable work in this game?

[Wraith]

Is it even a bad thing if we lynch Keyser and his power pushes it to night immediately?

Now that I think about it...

If we go to night with 6 alive, scum might crosskill, but if they don't that leaves 4 players alive. One will certainly be momo one way or another.

If momo is scum, that's at least two scum with two other players. In that situation Town is Kingmaker for a scum faction.

If momo is Survivor, that's at least two scum with a Survivor against Town. So in that situation momo is Kingmaker for anyone.

But all this would rely on scum not crosskilling, which with either 5 or 6 players alive I think is unlikely.

I don't think it would be our worst option if Keyser's power immediately ended day with no lynch.

[Wraith]

One way or another I

strongly

argue against letting any claimed Unlynchable player into LyLo with their power intact.

[Wraith]

Oh brilliant idea. We make LUV hammer momo.

[Wraith]

Oh shit

If we lynch Keyser and get insta-night no lynch, and then I get really,

really

lucky with my picks, I can force momo to only be a Town Kingmaker.

[Wraith]

Apparently there's a mafia roleblocker...

Would you still get your gladiator in if your are NK'd?

boring got her Track result so I would strongly assume yes

What makes you think there's a scum RB?

[Wraith]

I expected Unlynchable to work in that if the Unlynchable is hammered it resets the votes and they are no longer a lynch option for the day

@mod: How would Unlynchable work in this game?

If an Unlynchable player hits the lynch threshold, the game progresses as though No Lynch was the choice, and the game goes to Night.

@JerryArr

Does a supersaint hammer bypass unlynchable and governor ?

Do we skip to night phase if a 1 shot unlynchable is hammered?

Re Supersaint: If a Supersaint is hammered by an Unlynchable or Governed player, the hammerer dies, as it is a kill activated by a lynch, not itself a lynch.

Re Unlynchable: Yes, see above.

Fuck.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

I propose we lynch Keyser today to dispel WIFOM and pray the scum crosskill.

[Wraith]

Also if we do that, I want an answer to this question from Drixx, Grey, and Keyser:

Use my Gladiate (I will not name my targets) tonight or no?

[Wraith]

Keyser, hammer momo.

That will lynch the third party and defuse your unlynchable shot. It won't kill you.

Um, yes it will

[Wraith]

Increasingly thinking it's just LUV and momo

[Wraith]

I'm still uncomfortable letting an Unlynchable into LyLo

[Wraith]

VOTE: momo

[Wraith]

He has a point

Make LUV hammer momo

If he doesn't it's a scumclaim.

[Wraith]

You are such scum.

[Wraith]

Why not confirm it?

Just ask him to do it and see how he reacts

[Wraith]

What is the bloody harm in giving LUV a chance to do it and seeing if he takes it?

If LUV is scum he won't do it

If LUV is town that fucking sucks but it removes the for-sure LyLo mislynch from the table and scum might still cross-kill

[Wraith]

You need to stop talking

Like literally everything you say is so scummy right now

[Wraith]

It's the safest but momo is acting so fucking scummy right now

[Wraith]

Why would Survivor choose Supersaint over Hider?

[Wraith]

Listen. As a survivor, you want to 100% make sure you are not lynched. That's how you win. Again, I might be wrong, but I am probably right. Ask RC post game.

If I were Survivor I would be much more worried about getting Nightkilled

Hider helps with that way more than Supersaint. In fact picking Supersaint probably

increases

the chance you will be Nightkilled.

[Wraith]

You talking to me or Drixx?

[Wraith]

Hell, I'll hammer

Since I'm now more confident than ever momo is scum instead of Survivor, my Gladiate isn't necessary anymore.

UNVOTE:

[Wraith]

Night. I would've used it already if it was Day.

[Wraith]

VOTE: momo

Yeah but if you're dead from a Supersaint shot you won't be targetable anyways

I mean Keyser's right, if you still have a BP use you need to live

[Wraith]

Also I can't target myself with the Gladiate

[Wraith]

He already is lol

[Wraith]

Oh for the love of god

[Wraith]

Drixx please hammer

[Wraith]

KEYSER OR DRIXX

ONE OF YOU, FUCKING HAMMER

If I'm not fucking allowed to hammer goddammit I'm not going to wait around for us to argue in circles for days.

[Wraith]

I don't get why Keyser and Drixx are so hesitant to take one for the team. We're practically in fucking LyLo roles matter less now.

[Wraith]

So are we just going to sit here forever waiting for deadline?

LUV has posted since momo was put at L-1 without hammering, so I consider that a scumclaim.

[Wraith]

Wow, I got cold feet using my Gladiate for the last day since I thought there was likely only one scum remaining and so wanted to leave the option open to pop Keyser's Unlynchable just in case.

But yeah the TB lynch was dumb and I should've spoken up about it at the time. I was just so burned out after that heated shitfest between RC, Grey, and myself that I just didn't care anymore and wanted to move on.

Yet again most of my initial instincts were correct (LUV and RC scum) and I screwed myself by overthinking things.

[Wraith]

No idea how on earth I got tracked to a BP night one and managed not only to win but be alive at the end.

The Cop claim gave you a general pass D2 and then the RC drama did the rest.

Did Grey draw BOTH scumkills N1?