Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
Last blitz I played with him he was mafia so he's probably mafia here. Sheep me.

Guys I'm really confident Gamma Emerald is mafia vote him

These posts make me think your read is off.

[Infinity 324]

Not just because he gets a drawing, but also because I'm curious why Aristo joined and fell off after the drawing

What do you mean?

I read the last paint mafia, and iirc scum had enough ways to change town's colors that red wasn't a very reliable scumtell at endgame. Am I correct?

[Infinity 324]

BLUE players are very, very likely CONFIRMED TOWN unless someone can prove that players can change others blue.
RED players are likely to be CONFIRMED SCUM in the EARLY GAME but we can't rely on that as much moving forward.
Again, this is somewhat speculative, as Cheetory could've changed some core things between the second game and this one, but
I do NOT see Cheetory giving Mafia the ability to paint players blue, since he really didn't like how much that could skew things in scum's favor in the first game and was essentially 'bastard'.

Yeah this makes more sense.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Twoface
Not just because he gets a drawing, but also because I'm curious why Aristo joined and fell off after the drawing.

I was voting him bwcause he said he wasnt a nerd.

I unvoted when he accepted the facts

Ari do you have any reads?

[Infinity 324]

I'll read it when I get to a computer.

You'd be wrong on both

Something's off about twoface I think

[Infinity 324]

Hey everyone! These mechanics sound like fun. One thing I'm a bit confused on is what the colours tell us. If we later on in the game vote for someone to reveal their colour and say for example they come out as purple, would that mean anything other than they were targeted by mafia at some point to change their colour? Also any idea if we are told if our colour changes and what it changes to or if we get voted for it's a surprise for us too?

I can talk about what it was like in the last game:

Since scum couldn't change colors to blue, they could use non-blue, non-red colors on themselves to protect themselves. But since town could anticipate that, scum could also target town with one of those colors to spread WIFOM. Because of that, I think non-blue, non-red colors point to the player being scum but only slightly.

And players weren't notified of a change to their color. I expect that will be the same otherwise we could just massclaim colors and make scum's life very difficult.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: varsoon

I'll take wallposting so soon as a request to be the town leader. But first, he needs to go through the security check.

[Infinity 324]

Plus I think varsoon's hard to read.

[Infinity 324]

I like the natural curiosity in Raya's 44. Raises a lot of the same questions I had after Varsoon explained the mechanics a little. Like for example the purpose of different colors, whether we are notified of changes, etc. Does anyone know if colors are tied to actual roles at all?

Aristo is so cheerful that it almost feels artificial, but perhaps that's just his posting style (@people who've played with him before). I think I might have a hard time reading him

Why wouldn't scum have the same mechanical questions as you?

The default color for town is blue and the default color for scum is red, otherwise color doesn't mean anything about role.

Yes ari's cheerfulness is part of his personality. And he can actually be quite easy to read--if he posts content, he's almost always town. Simple as that. (Though I don't really have the experience with ari to support this, I've played with many people who do and they all agree on this.) However, he often doesn't post content even as town.

VOTE: Twoface
Not just because he gets a drawing, but also because I'm curious why Aristo joined and fell off after the drawing.

I was voting him bwcause he said he wasnt a nerd.

I unvoted when he accepted the facts

Ari do you have any reads?

Is there a reason why you're picking out him in particular to ask?

Yes, see above.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: varsoon

I'll take wallposting so soon as a request to be the town leader. But first, he needs to go through the security check.

Actually I dont just disagree imo this is just scummy


But jjh's vote is worse by default.
Jjh do you think Varsoon is scum, why?

Why is it scummy if you don't disagree?

It would be nice to have a town leader we can trust but since you say you can read him, plus the threat of NK, you're probably right.

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

No, but it does mean he isn't leading us in the wrong direction at least. It's helpful as long as we don't blindly sheep him.

I'm trying to think about how we should balance wanting to confirm someone useful and wanting the person we confirm not to be an easy NK. We might just want to try to hit scum, but the chances of that are pretty low all things considered.

[Infinity 324]

There is no ideal result from this phase. If we get a red result later on then we're still probably lynching it, aren't we?

Probably. But if we have reason to believe scum had the chance to frame most or all the townies, we should probably ignore the result.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm, no. If there's a really scummy looking slot, then we can just lynch it.

The null active people can turn out to be red too. But I'm not going to waste a colourflip on someone we should just lynch anyway.

I think there will be a big enough chance for everyone to flip town that it's worth checking. And we definitely won't lynch them "anyway" if they flip blue.

PEdit: scummy =/= unhelpful. And it could be OK to have an unhelpful conftown that scum doesn't want to kill, though you may have a point there.

If I were a cop, I would investigate scummy people unless I had very confident scumreads--I don't trust the town to hit scum more ofte than random d1 so I'd cop instead of lynch.

[Infinity 324]

I just don't get this.

I do. He's basically suggesting to use the color flip like a cop investigation. Cops don't investigate the obviously scummy they investigate null reads. Town lynches the obviously scummy people.

Not a bad idea actually

But unlike a cop we can analyse the posting and everyone's motives to flip someone . Flipping someone we find scummy is better than a random null read . That leads to inactivity in the thread , everyone will have one or two posts here and there and chill . I would like people to think like we're​ lynching scum here and go after that . Not just chill around because we're​ flipping colour flipping

Oh and this is a good point too.

[Infinity 324]

Usually talking about mechanics/theory into ad naseam is fruitless and not very hard for either alignment

Plus I think varsoon's hard to read.

Why are you invalidating everything you said by not committing to your vote fully

How does that invalidate that I thought he could be a town leader and that I though he'd be a good color flip? The vote was never based on scumminess.

VOTE: Twoface
Not just because he gets a drawing, but also because I'm curious why Aristo joined and fell off after the drawing.

I was voting him bwcause he said he wasnt a nerd.

I unvoted when he accepted the facts

Ari do you have any reads?

I like Gamma for the dumb gambit for now and I'd like a Varsoon flip, as he would be an amazing conftown to have and D1 is the only time it happens! Sadly, it also shortens his lifespan if we do this.

However,
VOTE: Varsoon

Cool, can you talk about the points brought up in favor of flipping the scummiest player?

[Infinity 324]

I'd like people to give reads instead of argue theory, because bomberman is right that scum can argue theory for days. At the end of the day, we'll all vote for who we want flipped no matter what our theories are.

FoS apricity for not following up on his questions to me about ari.

[Infinity 324]

But you posted in between at 79...

Reads can sometimes be faked pretty easily, but apparently not by ari. (No offense ari).

That post kinda feels like an excuse not to accept ari as town so easily. And the read feels very weak.

VOTE: apricity

[Infinity 324]

Can't we just color flip a scummy person and if it's red then great, and if it's blue then it has the same effect as if we color flipped and confirmed a null person?

P-edit: Having time to offer a quick opinion =/= having time to respond to stuff and read everything else. I wasn't avoiding you, and I don't know how to make you believe that if you insist otherwise.

More importantly, how is what I said about Ari any different than how you'd generally treat a person you've just encountered that you can't read easily? Wouldn't you also be a bit more wary about them and figure them out along the way? I don't get it. And it's not even a read at all, much less a "weak read" because I don't have one on him yet.

Fair enough wrt the response.

I would be more wary of them if I didn't know an easy way to read them. I think town would be more likely to ask for a way to verify the meta and then go with that if true. It might be just my personality, but I think town would likely jump at the opportunity to try and confirm someone.

Ari disagreeing makes me doubt that though.

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure ari is town.

[Infinity 324]

Apricity, what do you think about aptil

[Infinity 324]

What do you think of me infinity?

I like the points you've been bringing up, but I can't really get a good read without you giving more non-theory content. I asked apricity that for a specific reason.

[Infinity 324]

Apricity, what do you think about aptil

I'm pretty much of the same opinion that you just stated. I had a mild townlean on him based on gut feels, but when I looked at his iso, 80-90% of it was related to game mechanics, and that's a behavior I usually think is anti-town. What I'm interested in seeing is how aptil's thoughts about jjh will develop from here once jjh responds. To me, since I understood the reasoning jjh was coming from, aptil's vote appeared a little contrived. If it was genuine confusion I guess that's different...I can't really tell currently.

Wait, I thought you agreed with aptil that we should flip the scummiest person instead of a null slot.

Speaking of which, Infinity, you never addressed aptil when he asked you about your Varsoon vote; you just kinda dropped the vote later. Out of curiosity, was it a pressure vote or a vote for color flip?

Right, I sort of talked about that in 107 (and in the posts where I voted him, though it may not have been worded well). At the time I thought it would be a good idea to flip someone active and town-leader-like who's hard to read, and varsoon fit that bill. In 98 max said he could read varsoon and brought up the threat of a NK which I hadn't really thought of before, which made me change my mind. So to answer your question, it was a vote to flip.

This feels really off to me, it's like since I pointed out you didn't follow up on something you did the same to me. Though it's possible that just occured to you as town or that you're scrutinizing me more since I'm scrutinizing you.

[Infinity 324]

Varsoon, what do you think of my opinion on that subject in 108

[Infinity 324]

I do. What does that have to do with my read of him?

First of all, how is it different from what you talked about in 61 with raya?

Second of all, I don't see why you said you saw jjh's logic when it seems you agree with aptil in that argument.

[Infinity 324]

Ok so what you're saying is that you agree with aptil, but you also see the other side and you wonder why aptil wasn't more charitable?

[Infinity 324]

Sort of. More like I see jjh's point even though I don't personally agree with it and found his logic pretty easy to understand, so I wonder whether aptil was truly confused about it or just using that as an excuse to vote someone.

I actually like this, even though I don't really agree. There's a good amount of depth for an early read that's not visible on the surface.

UNVOTE: apricity

Also be patient ari! We might disagree on the best way to choose a color flip, but I trust a town consensus more than a random guess, and I'd prefer to give people the chance to develop good reads before we flip someone. I think we get a lot more info that way.

PEdit: I've since changed my mind on the subject (see 140) and agree that we should probably just go for the scummiest person.

Also, that's possible, but there's not really enough in jjh's ISO to tell imo.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: twoface

You reminded me that something's still off about him

PEdit: A ton of content between now and the flip is not required, but I think there is a lot of read generation to do! I was kind of thinking of this point as the end of the mechanics talk and the beginning of the reads talk (at least optimistically). I don't have many solid reads, raya and havo have said barely anything, and I still want more content from jjh, aptil, and max. It's ok to disagree, but I think there's a lot that could be done before the flip.

[Infinity 324]

Bomberman do you usually have so many small suspicions early on?

[Infinity 324]

At least I know you're likely town!

Yay!

Bomberman do you usually have so many small suspicions early on?

I think too many people fall into the mindset about 'developing their reads' further and then miss out on avenues of thought merely because they are waiting for something to happen

Interesting, I'll probably actually be more aware of that this game

[Infinity 324]

You reminded me that something's still off about him

Like what exactly?

Let's start with: you're not scumhunting.

[Infinity 324]

This is correct. I don't know you.

Care to prove me wrong? An explanation or a demonstration would suffice

[Infinity 324]

we've never even played together before so how can you act like you know me and my play?

Everyone who knows me knows I'm reactive not necessarily proactive.

I don't need to know your play for something to feel off about you for me--why do you assume I do?

[Infinity 324]

And I fucked up the link. What the hell is wrong with me today!?

It's ok ari, we still love you <3

[Infinity 324]

we've never even played together before so how can you act like you know me and my play?

Everyone who knows me knows I'm reactive not necessarily proactive.

I don't need to know your play for something to feel off about you for me--why do you assume I do?

yes you do actually. To say something is off with me you need to have a baseline to compare it to. The more important question is why did you mislead people into thinking you knew how I play?

Something is off about you from my expectations of how people normally play. That's all there is to it, and I didn't expect you or anyone else to interpret it differently (although I see why you did).

[Infinity 324]

None, although I followed much of the last one.

[Infinity 324]

So you can't possibly have a realistic expectation on how other people will play during a color phase. You can only have a expectation of how you would play.

An "off" feeling is a just a gut feeling that someone might be scum. Do I need to know your meta for that?

[Infinity 324]

6 pages overnight...

I'm up page 10 and jjh is only continuing other people's trains of thought and not starting his own. I'm surprised bomberman is not calling him out for that.

Varsoon is likely town.

[Infinity 324]

Phew.

VOTE: Twoface

There were a few minutes there where I thought I might want to vote you, Frog.

Maybe it's really bomberman and jjh

This looks like too easy of a switch

[Infinity 324]

Okay so you don't like my reaction, I understood it the 3rd time you said it

Now give me something in return and actually answer the things I am asking of you instead of creating this false dichotomy where I failed your test therefore you don't owe me shit because that's gonna make me pretty heated

I changed my mind

jjh actually looks better after this, partly because of the mindmeld with frog who also looks pretty good and partly because he does actually seen to have his own reasoning and convictions.

I like this post from bomber. It seems like a genuine reaction of someone who wants to come to a resolution but is having difficulty doing so.

[Infinity 324]

Frog, what would you say if I told you both bomber and jj are town

I think it's possible scum!apricity would've been more emotional about me scumreading her for the wrong reasons, what do you guys think?

But then again, I have too many townreads already I think.

[Infinity 324]

Frog, what would you say if I told you both bomber and jj are town

I'd agree. My instinct tells me they are TvT, as I've said repeatedly.

Sorry, still catching up.

[Infinity 324]

Phew.

VOTE: Twoface

There were a few minutes there where I thought I might want to vote you, Frog.

Maybe it's really bomberman and jjh

This looks like too easy of a switch

Hmm....

What do you mean by "and"?

I meant as scumbuddies

[Infinity 324]

Are you not willing to throw your vote around yet, Frog?

I've been seeing this as a kind of lower-pressure RVS. Am I wrong?

nah not yet

I've only played with five of you, and Varsoon was nearly 2 years ago for one game and Max was my newbie game and a game we were scum together, both before I site flaked. Also, I have no idea how to read Gamma early game I think, and you know I wasn't sure about you D1 in RC's game, so I want to wait on you because you're obviously a big asset to town if town. Only other one is Ari, and I like I said I have a shitty early meta read of him as town.

If Infinity is town just sheep him on reading me

This is true, I've played 10-15 games with gamma and misread him once I think.

[Infinity 324]

I said something was off about him, didn't I?

VOTE: twoface

L-2. Just make sure not to quicklynch.

[Infinity 324]

It's also nice to have a solid townbloc of me Varsoon Infinity and bomber. Maybe Ari too!

Ari is probably my strongest townread atm

I agree with you that jj trying to pass of his bomber vote looks a little suspicious, but I totally agreed with you when you said the rest of his play looked genuine--is that still a factor for you?

@twoface: the kinds of things my gut picks up on you probably wouldn't do consciously anyway, however it's very possible I got lucky. There's a reason I put a winky face

[Infinity 324]

if he posts content, he's almost always town. Simple as that. (Though I don't really have the experience with ari to support this, I've played with many people who do and they all agree on this.)

[Infinity 324]

Just make sure not to quicklynch.

:/

[Infinity 324]

It's ok, just please be more careful next time.

And that you about the avatar! (I think that's what you're talking about?) It actually took a while to find one that worked through all the error messages