Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[jjh927]

VOTE: Gamma

Sure.

[jjh927]

Explanation of why I townread Ari and jj
I'd figure scum wouldn't want to just let someone get confirmed by their own will, they'd control who got confirmed

Just as a late response, I actually kinda like that there is actual logic in this, which nets Gamma a fairly shitty townlean. That puts him higher up than anyone else in my reads so far though.

VOTE: Varsoon

This looks good to me.

[jjh927]

Nope. We're voting to reveal colour, not to lynch scum.

[jjh927]

There is no ideal result from this phase. If we get a red result later on then we're still probably lynching it, aren't we?

[jjh927]

I think we should be using today's colour flip on a very null, very active slot, and just outright lynch the scummiest person rather than using the colour flip on them.

[jjh927]

Hmm, no. If there's a really scummy looking slot, then we can just lynch it.

The null active people can turn out to be red too. But I'm not going to waste a colourflip on someone we should just lynch anyway.

[jjh927]

Are you not willing to throw your vote around yet, Frog?

I've been seeing this as a kind of lower-pressure RVS. Am I wrong?

[jjh927]

Can I hammer?

Splatting people with my vote will be nostalgic

[jjh927]

Ugh fine

VOTE: Twoface

I'm fine with this because I feel he should be unsure about me if he's unsure about people for not posting much. I've not been as active as I could be.

[jjh927]

Bomberman wtf! Why are you not voting yourself!?

I don't want a blowhard telling me that me self-voting is anti-town despite the circumstances, but you can still push me if u want

That was the response, right? Yeah, I think this is even worse than the not voting himself bit.

[jjh927]

VOTE: Bomberman

[jjh927]

Nope, I voted you because your conviction was shitty, your reaction was shittier, and your explanation of the reaction was extremely shitty.

And then your reaction to my vote was exactly what I was looking for to keep my vote on you.

[jjh927]

But Frog, this is scummy as all hell?

[jjh927]

Bomberman exploded after I voted him or I'd have just swapped back

PEdit: There were like 8 pages of "We should colour flip scum" from other people after I said that.

[jjh927]

Phew.

VOTE: Twoface

There were a few minutes there where I thought I might want to vote you, Frog.

[jjh927]

Bomberman, this is the first phase of the whole game. We don't have a lot of substantial stuff to go off and you acted like me voting you was me accusing you of being the antichrist.

PEdit: Not a threat. I would have wanted you colourflipped because you seemed to me like you were reacting more to me voting Bomberman than to anything else.

[jjh927]

PEdit: Not a threat. I would have wanted you colourflipped because you seemed to me like you were reacting more to me voting Bomberman than to anything else.

Bullshit. I was reacting to you unvoting twoface which seemed like protecting him and voting bomber when you said you didn't care to color flip scum.

Yeah, was a conceivable possibility though. I'm not accusing you of shit, Frog. That was just an interpretation pushed to the surface of my mind by you shouting at me.

[jjh927]

No, Bomberman. I'm saying you shouldn't take day 1 votes as "This person is scum and I have loads of evidence". I like throwing my vote around a lot for reactions and your reactions to people voting you or being suspicious of you have been terrible.

[jjh927]

Not the post I'm talking about? #266 where he says "we don't have a lot of substantial stuff to go off of"

Yeah, that's me saying your reaction was a massive overreaction, which is itself something I consider fairly substantial to go off. Especially for day 1.

[jjh927]

No, Bomberman. I'm saying you shouldn't take day 1 votes as "This person is scum and I have loads of evidence". I like throwing my vote around a lot for reactions and your reactions to people voting you or being suspicious of you have been terrible.

What purpose is there to vote someone if you're just going to take it back, what exactly were you trying to feel out?

I've been asking you to elaborate on things but you've haven't really been doing so

right, but now he's given other reasons, so why do you keep harping on "it's D1 bro"

If you think that is the ONLY thing I have harped on him for maybe I'm not being clear enough

Just you wait and see what happens if Twoface doesn't flip red.

Most of the purpose of that vote was a reaction test. I wasn't just after your reaction either- I wanted to see how other people felt about potentially running you up. Both of those different types of reaction would be best got by a naked vote, which is why it was a naked vote. And I got reactions and I got some reads, so yeah.

[jjh927]

What do you think I still haven't answered, Bomberman?

Because if it's about the Varsoon vote then that's still me throwing my vote around.

[jjh927]

Frog, you were in my only completed game on site.

[jjh927]

Frog called me out on me voting you for two things. 1. I was no longer voting Twoface. 2. I was voting someone scummy, rather than someone null, disagreeing with what I'd said earlier.

Honestly, I think the reason you're confused is because you're making shit up.

[jjh927]

Nah, I actually still think I should be voting someone null for the colour flip.

[jjh927]

I mean, you'll get to see exactly how much conviction I have if Twoface flips blue.

PEdit: Eh. I've got a lot of better reads rn. He's fairly null. Might be a bit of a scumlean. If I'm gonna place someone I need to talk to them.

[jjh927]

Oh, if Twoface flips red I won't be pushing for a lynch on Bomberman instantly. Obviously I'll be lynching Twoface with everyone else. I'll still think Bomberman is scum, but he won't see the evidence of that conviction that he seems to desire so much.

I'd like to talk to twoface but he's not here and if he colourflips it won't make a difference because I won't need to place him. I did give a reason. That's why he's kinda scumleany.

[jjh927]

Is conviction still a word?


But yeah, you know I greatly value a back-and-forth conversation that I'm involved in to place people, right?

[jjh927]

Bomberman was trying to argue that I don't really scumread Bomberman because I'm not voting him. Reread.

[jjh927]

Oh right. Yeah, well, here's what will happen;

If Twoface flips blue, Bomberman gets to see just how convinced I am that he is scum, because I will vote him until he is lynched.
If Twoface flips red, Bomberman does not get to see the extent of how convinced I am that he is scum, because we'll all be voting Twoface.

Understand?

[jjh927]

We both played in the one game I have finished on site.

[jjh927]

I am reading him as someone who makes kneejerk reactions and changes his ideals to see fit whatever push he is making, sometimes in the form of blind aggression

I don't really like this but perhaps you know him better than me

*eyes twitch*

[jjh927]

Do you want to tell me where you got any of those things?

First up, gimme some kneejerk reactions.
Then show me changing my ideals to fit a narrative.
Then point me to some blind aggression.

[jjh927]

I mean, that was because I wanted his reactions. I never intended to keep my vote on him, Frog.

[jjh927]

Your reaction was pretty neat too because we placed each other from the ensuing conversation.

[jjh927]

Frog, if I'd said "Oh yeah and now I'm gonna move my vote off you" instead of that last statement, would I have got reactions to analyse?

[jjh927]

That was one post. Also, I didn't have anyone besides Bomberman's.

[jjh927]

I thought there was more to be had from that angle. And there was, because you jumped at it.

I would have liked to have seen Aristo's thoughts on it too but that boat sailed when he wasn't around.

[jjh927]

It could have been appeasement but I'm telling you it mostly wasn't. I may have moved off the vote a little earlier than I otherwise would but I did still intend to move it.

PEdit: I said earlier I was looking for reactions other than Bomberman's.

[jjh927]

Where's the association with Twoface exactly?

[jjh927]

No, I mean you being sure there's scum in me, Bomberman and Twoface

[jjh927]

sorry JJ, you understand my paranoia right? I'm just trying to sort through this, because I'm pretty convinced there's scum in {you, bomber, twoface}

I still think TwoFace is the best color flip if only for a reaction to him claiming he'd happily self-hammer. So I expect that when he wakes up. If he flips blue, honestly it probably comes down to sorting you and bomber for me. But my gut tells me it's TwoFace who is scum, and you and bomber are TvT and I'm just sorting through that, but I'm not positive.

But wait, you think we're probably TvT but that changes somehow if Twoface isn't scum? You're losing me.

[jjh927]

Hang on just a second. Why would voting blueface be scummy? This isn't a lynch wagon and I refuse to treat it as such.

[jjh927]

If it's a point against then you would consider it scummy, no?



Oh, and btw- we'd be better off with a blue flip if we still lynched scum.

[jjh927]

I'm not going to get any further into a bottomless argument with someone I believe is town who is getting far more aggressive than they need to. If you have any real questions left I'll answer them.

[jjh927]

Frog, check your tone the last few posts and cool it.

PEdit: I was trying to get a grasp of your thought process.

[jjh927]

@mod What's a voptecoun

[jjh927]

Raya, if you scumread me then please talk to me and ask me questions, especially if it's not a very strong read

[jjh927]

Don't collapse the wavefunction

[jjh927]

VOTE: Twoface

[jjh927]

@jj

In post 57 why does Varsoon look like a good vote to you? Is there any reasoning behind that?

Mind explaining post 234?

Could you also explain the thought process when you switched your vote to Bomber then back to Twoface?

In 57, I hadn't placed many people and was still treating it as low pressure RVS. Earlygame wagons are good.

In 234, my "ugh" was because I kinda wanted the hammer for pretty much no reason.

Switching vote to Bomber was for reactions, from both Bomber and other people who happened to be around.

[jjh927]

VOTE: Twoface

What's your opinion of Bomber now?

Still a scumread but I'm far more willing to sheep you on him being town after the Twoface flip.

[jjh927]

Frog, you're going full conf bias here. You were saying earlier that blueface would contribute to a scumread on me, and now you're trying to say that redface also contributes to a scumread on me?

Why wouldn't scum!me have just bussed?

[jjh927]

Then could you explain why you're looking for things that make me scum on both sides of a coin?

[jjh927]

Frog- votes don't have pressure behind them unless you can bullshit meaning onto them.

[jjh927]

Frog- votes don't have pressure behind them unless you can bullshit meaning onto them.

So now you're backtracking and saying you didn't scumread him?

If you want to call it that. I had a bit of a scumlean but it's still day 1. RVS and shit. You get out of RVS by making shitty cases confidently.

[jjh927]

I didn't push the game out of RVS. I was getting myself out of it. You know how shit my reads were before then?

[jjh927]

You guys are mixing up the wagons. Scum is more likely to be on TwoFace later on the color wagon, but at any point in time on the lynch wagon.

Also apricity you should answer me about gamma

I don't think the hammer comes from scum partner in the lynch wagon. That's all.

Why?

[jjh927]

Okay, I'm actually around again and I'm stealing the pagetop for no good reason whatsoever. Can we look at getting a load of people to join on a wagon?

Looking at Infinity's iso I have no idea why he was the nightkill. I think Apricity is a good vote though. I don't like either Aptil or Apricity tbh.

VOTE: Apricity

[jjh927]

VOTE: JJH

But why don't you like Apricity?
Is it just the cool thing to do?

Dunno how cool it is considering how split the votes are rn

[jjh927]

Since you're here I'll talk to you about you. I'd actually rather we flipped you, but the deadline is looming closer because blitz and I'd feel icky about not voting on a larger wagon.

A couple of your votes have been either bad or wrong, but luckily not both from my perspective so you've got that going for you. Talk to me about Varsoon maybe?

[jjh927]

I really like that you just answered that question from ages ago without me having to ask it again. I'm used to people refusing to answer questions while I repeat them.

But I guess I'll ask another question- doesn't the scum partner hammering serve exactly the same purpose? And does 485 concern you at all?

Forget about the Varsoon question for now because this is more interesting.



PEdit: I wanted you to talk more about Varsoon but IDC now tbh. It's because he was one of your day 1 townreads and I wanted you to talk to me about him. I'll give you some quotes next post.

[jjh927]

UNVOTE:
Again i don't understand this wanting to end this so soon . Two people have hardly even been here .Looks like jj is not an option right now so i would like to .

If the options are Noface and Bomber my vote is on VOTE: Bomberman

This is reaaaaaaaaally off, considering all the discussion about twoface self-hammering, you acknowledging that he was on L-1, and that tbh Bomber was never really much of an option. So I'm calling this one wrong. But I can't really call it bad because at that point in time I had a fairly significant scumread on Bomberman and maybe a titchy little scumlean on Twoface.

VOTE: aptil please pile on

And this has already been discussed by other people I think, but this vote is bad. But I can't say it's wrong.

[jjh927]

I feel like Apricity is engaging in the game in the context of a commentator rather than as an active player here. I can't see a good example of her engaging with her scumreads. She's constantly catching up and making that a point. The questions she asks don't seem to be coming at a scumhunting angle. She's generally talking to her townreads. That's where my principle issues lie, anyhow. I can grab a few posts if you want, but hopefully I've explained this well enough.

[jjh927]

I really like that you just answered that question from ages ago without me having to ask it again. I'm used to people refusing to answer questions while I repeat them.

But I guess I'll ask another question-

doesn't the scum partner hammering serve exactly the same purpose

? And does 485 concern you at all?

Scum partner hammering like that would be taking a risk no . Like if someone asks them about it , the reaction to that is pretty easy to catch on .

This is why I asked you about 485. To me, that post looks like a shitty attempt to emphasise to everyone that it was accidental, which immediately makes me consider that it wasn't accidental. On the other hand, that kind of shit matches Bomberman's general tone / posting vibe thus far so it's not an outlier.

[jjh927]

Vote: TwoFace

Pile 'em on lads

I might've hammered but that's alright I hope

@Mod, please draw something funny for this happenstance of me accidentally quickhammering

I'd also like to bring this up again because like Ari I also felt it sounded fake. Thoughts?

Does any discussion come from this? I think this one's a pretty good example.


On the whole "not engaging with scumreads" thing, you're gonna have to check through her iso for that. Because I can't quote posts that aren't there.

[jjh927]

Although shit, I think the only way this kind of shit furthers a scum agenda is if she's trying to gently push people in the general directions of some town, especially someone who scum have changed the colour of assuming they can do that.

If we colourflip someone who turns out red but is town, then we're obviously gonna look straight at who pushed that wagon. So subtle pushes that get people discussing points like the one above are something to look for.




On the other hand I am totally confbiasing this because I only even thought about the scum motivation for this behaviour right after you asked me about it so I'm gonna sit down.

[jjh927]

What's your read on Bomberman right now, aptil?

[jjh927]

Can you talk about the slot outside of the hammer thing?

[jjh927]

Can you talk about the slot outside of the hammer thing?

Outside of the hammer i would strongly suspect him based on day1 .Even day2 i don't understand not seeing fro as town and his coming back with 667 'what would this town do without me' , although going with his tone overall with the game it didn't feel good for me . I will re-examine the slot later if he continues to survive like that.

But the hammer somehow clears him of all this? You're not making sense to me here. That hammer is somewhere between NAI and scummy depending on how you look at it. Twoface was publicly confscum and thus a hammer which actually did serve to limit discussion should not make you read Bomberman as town. There is no reason scum wouldn't hammer that.

[jjh927]

VOTE: aptil

[jjh927]

Well, basically, I've been fairly clear with things here. You're arguing that the fact that Bomberman hammered, not even the way he hammered, clears him. And that is just not true by any stretch of the imagination. You're basing this off of assumptions of coordination? Why would scum make it easy for us and "be co-ordinated"?


If you flip red then it's you and Bomberman and the game is won.

[jjh927]

What you're suggesting is that scum play out some kind of super-rehearsed scene if they're going to hammer. Your assumptions are highly flawed.


And yeah, you and Bomber have a massive glaring association going on here because your sole reason for townreading him rather than scumreading him is bullshit.

[jjh927]

What would you expect to see in scum hammering Twoface that you don't see in the way Bomber did it? And don't say the word "coordination" or any derivative thereof.

[jjh927]

Your vote is on aptil rn, and that's the biggest wagon. L-3. Votes are super split.

[jjh927]

We need to convince other people to join on this wagon, really. I'm waiting for people to show up again following my talk with aptil.

[jjh927]

Frog, what are you feeling on colourflips right now

[jjh927]

Well, if we want to get a votecount then we really ought to give this coming pagetop to Cheet.

[jjh927]

jjh and jjh927 are the same person?

[jjh927]

I mean, I guess I've never seen them together in the same room.

[jjh927]

What's your opinion on aptil, Raya?

[jjh927]

Gee this is exactly what someone who isn't lurking looks like

[jjh927]

We have 14 hours. Can people exist?

[jjh927]

*tumbleweed passes by*

[jjh927]

I would be up for voting Gamma if nobody else shows up to vote but I'd much rather aptil or Raya rn. Where do you stand on either of these, Frog?

[jjh927]

I mean as far as wagons and actually voting go not your reads.

[jjh927]

Do we somehow get more information from people self-hammering colour flips?

[jjh927]

Do we somehow get more information from people self-hammering colour flips?

[jjh927]

But if you're caught up, aptil, then you've seen all the bomberman shit? It's an utterly terrible reason to tr Bomberman.

[jjh927]

So what you're saying is that saying you won't self-hammer is somehow suspicious, so scum will say they will self-hammer anyway. So you get nothing out of it. Whereas someone else hammering is another vote with analysis potential.

[jjh927]

I'm just weirded out by Frog's insistence on something I don't see the benefit in, is all.

[jjh927]

Smarter than this how? I don't get what we gain out of asking if people would self-hammer colour flips.

Is it something that loses its effect if you explain it?

[jjh927]

I think I almost get it but I don't see how scum can't do exactly what you'd expect town to do in a way that seems completely genuine, considering they'd have plenty of time to prepare their reactions.

[jjh927]

That's actually something I can get behind. Not being sarcastic for clarification. Carry on.

[jjh927]

I've set an alarm for 30 minutes before deadline and will happily hammer anyone who is on L-1 at that point.

[jjh927]

Frog has indeed played with me before. Frog, I take it you want me to self hammer here?

[jjh927]

I don't even know why I'm waiting for him to respond. I've never been conftown before and the prospect is exciting.

VOTE: jjh927

[jjh927]

I'm what

[jjh927]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm actually a VT. I was mostly expecting me to be blue, but I'm not sure if it was the egocentric or realistic side of me expecting scum to have recoloured me red. Now I'm a mixture of both.

[jjh927]

I wouldn't say I'm clear. Blue would be clear. This is clearly a night action and the voices in my head were right when they said that I would be a target of some kind of colour changing thing.

[jjh927]

Max, I haven't- I'm most interested right now in how many they get.

[jjh927]

I don't even know why I'm waiting for him to respond. I've never been conftown before and the prospect is exciting.

VOTE: jjh927

I'm what

Yeah, I'm not. I'm actually a VT. I was mostly expecting me to be blue, but I'm not sure if it was the egocentric or realistic side of me expecting scum to have recoloured me red. Now I'm a mixture of both.

These posts dont follow imo, either you expected to be recoloured or you didnt, and this looks like fake surprise

It's not quite that simple when your gut tells you one thing and your brain tells your gut to stop being so self-absorbed

[jjh927]

I'm not challenging your scumread? What actually is there to challenge rn?

[jjh927]

Okay, right, I'm done with my thinking thing and have collected myself. What needs to be figured out is- if scum painted me, then why am I purple and not red?


Having just read setup shit from paint 2, the sneaky thing there was that scum had no blue paint, but town were not told this. How do we know scum have red paint and what would this mean for balance?

[jjh927]

Purple was far more surprising than red or blue because I was blue and was expecting, if recoloured, to be red. I felt those were the only two realistic outcomes.

Could you outline again why you think I'm scum because I must have missed it.

[jjh927]

Why would scum not having red paint be bastard?

[jjh927]

We flipped me and I'm purple, Ari.

[jjh927]

Well, they left Frog alive.

[jjh927]

The colours don't mix if the paint is dry and I am pretty sure this game operates on the same principle. Either some shenanigans happened that someone can enlighten us to, or someone made the decision to paint me purple.

[jjh927]

In game 2, scum had a load of different colours to choose from.

[jjh927]

Well, they left Frog alive.

So? Infinity was Obvtown so he was Obv a good NK choice. What is your point here? That Frog is scum?

No. It's that Frog was pushing me day 1. Frog was more obvtown than Infinity imo, and it's a good bet that with an alive Frog I'd be colourflipped at some point. This lines up.

[jjh927]

If colours mix then there's presumably some kind of loyal blue-painter somewhere in the town.

[jjh927]

If like in game 2, scum can paint Red but not blue, then that would mean JJ was Blue and was painted Red by scum, thus making him purple. No?

That's funny however if we lynched jj and that theory remained to be true it'd be useless for mafia given it would pseudo-confirm Townies who were colored red

Also jj the rules state Blue is town and Red is groupscum so altering or lying about that fact would be bastard

How the hell can you say TwoFace was town when he flipped mafia goon lmfao

Do you understand the concept of this game

[jjh927]

Yeah, IK it's not open and shut.

[jjh927]

When did I say anything about Twoface

[jjh927]

OH nvm Bomber, you do indeed lack understanding as I thought. When I said scum might not have red paint, I mean they might not be able to paint people red, not that they aren't red.

[jjh927]

I'm gonna give you all till I next wake up to catch up to where I am with this or disagree with me, and then I'm going to start analysing my colourflip wagon.

(I'm not going to sleep yet though)

PEdit: Frog is very very town.

[jjh927]

Oh damn I entirely missed Havo's joindate, time to reread the slot oops
Pedit is preview-edit its what u type when someone posted something while you were writing your post

Siblings Pet Doggo is Frogger's hydra, he's just slipped twice and posted as it

Why do you need to resort based on joindate?

[jjh927]

Well, they left Frog alive.

What does this have to do with me?

I have some thoughts but I'm out drinking in Vegas

I responded to this earlier. Basically, you existing points to me having my colour changed. Not that anyone's suggesting that I started purple.

[jjh927]

Looking at Infinity's iso I have no idea why he was the nightkill.

JJ talk about this

What do you want me to say about this? He was a towny, but I didn't see him making any waves or anything. This was mainly in response to Varsoon's requests for things to look into.

[jjh927]

but the deadline is looming closer

Talk about this. There was still plenty of time

I disagree and I didn't know how many more people I was going to be able to talk to.

[jjh927]

Well, they left Frog alive.

What does this have to do with me?

I have some thoughts but I'm out drinking in Vegas

I responded to this earlier. Basically, you existing points to me having my colour changed. Not that anyone's suggesting that I started purple.

Explain to me because I've been out drinking since before your color flip

You were pushing me day 1. I feel like town!Bomber would be the only other viable colourchange target for scum who are thinking in the short term, and I think the general consensus was that I was more suspicious than Bomber. So you being alive rather than the nightkill because you were obvtowning could be because scum expected you to lead the charge on colourflipping me.

But then, all this logic would point to me being coloured red, not purple. I seriously think there might be a loyal town painter somewhere and the colours got mixed.

[jjh927]

We had 24 more hours for the first flip.

[jjh927]

This is reaaaaaaaaally off,

You realize this sounds fake as fuck right?

Why not just say it sounds off?

Is this an actual point you're making because I don't even remember why I added all those 'a's

[jjh927]

We had 24 more hours for the first flip.

I get that.

Still you weren't panicked when we got closer to deadline

I was on the Twoface wagon, which, when it appeared, was pretty much set in stone.

[jjh927]

So, you think I'm scum and I painted myself purple?

[jjh927]

I don't, you've just been really towny.

[jjh927]

And I wouldn't paint myself purple because I can't think of a good reason to besides crazy wifom plays

[jjh927]

I didn't post for ages just so you could have that pagetop and also because me saying anything else would serve no purpose.

[jjh927]

Occam's razor says that scum just painted me purple but I don't see why they'd do that.

I do see why they'd pick red. Next, I'm sure someone else could have figured out I was a good colour change target, especially someone who was thinking about it for their role. A town loyal painter's main purpose would be to recolour anyone who was recoloured by scum. Finally, number 3 is linked to both me being a good colour change target (because this is dependent on me being likely to be flipped) and also on me having been the colour change target (because scum have extra incentive to flip me).


And yeah, I discussed the possibility of them not having red paint, but nobody really wanted in on said discussion except for Bomber who misinterpreted it completely.

[jjh927]

@JJH: Why did you self-hammer? We've been over how that denies information to town. Also, why claim VT instead of just Town? Why are you talking about color mixing mechanics? Where are you getting the idea that colors mix if wet/dry? iirc, the wet/dry mechanic was only important in the first game as a way of seeing if a player was recently painted.

Reasons for self-hammer: when I asked Frog about self-hammering with those exact concerns he said self-hammering was a good thing somehow and I just took him at word after his reluctance to explain it immediately. I also wanted to be conftown, regardless of any doubts in my mind about being recoloured, though I was mentally prepared for the worst if it came to that. Lastly we were coming close to deadline and it was going to happen anyway.

I fullclaimed because it seemed like something sensible. I highly doubt I'm getting nightkilled after this colour flip.

Purple is a mixture of blue and red. I can understand why scum would colour me red, but not purple, and the only town role I can think of to do with painting would be a loyal one designed to recolour townspeople blue. So I feel this is a legitimate possibility.

Real life. Colours mix if wet, but not if dry. We can disregard this completely tbh; if colours mixed, it's because I was painted by two different sources in the same night. The scum likely did not mix their red with the blue I began the game with.

[jjh927]

And Varsoon- this is the part where I analyse my colourflip wagon.

[jjh927]

VOTE: Aristophanes

Not much analysis required there, actually.

[jjh927]

He asked whether Gamma would self-hammer, then I asked why self-hammering is beneficial. There was a discussion on it. Me asking the question seemed to make him vote me for some reason. I don't know how you're missing that.

He didn't personally tell me to self-hammer but I assume he would have done. Also we did not have 24 hours left. I believe we had 10.

Read the full discussion on self hammers if you want me to talk about it any more.




On the nightkill stuff, after flipping purple there's always gonna be this suspicion from town. Also sunken cost fallacy may be a fallacy but it's still a thing.

[jjh927]

The entire colour flip phase, Ari had one post and it was voting me. I would say he also assumed Frog and others would be joining him. Based on the wagon, he's the most likely scum in it. TRs for Varsoon and Frog, I've reaaaally liked Maxwell's stuff from this phase, and Bomber hopped on for good reasons.

[jjh927]

Yeah I was responding to Varsoon.

[jjh927]

It's equally plausible scum would just want to soft push people in the direction they were going yesterday so as not to attract attention.


And Bomber- eh. Me calling you and Bomber a scumteam was a massive stretch and I see that now. Bomber has been playing consistently with his posts and tone this whole time and I guess he's kind of townleany right now? I saw his vote on me as being because he considered me a possible scum and was curious as to what I'd flip anyway, and I was on L-2 close to deadline. I think scum would already be on wagon by that point.

[jjh927]

I don't think Ari has actually attempted to decipher what's gone on here and I would love to see him dispute this.

[jjh927]

Gamma is probably a vanity wagon so you're probably gonna have to make a decision between me and Ari

[jjh927]

Your list there is missing Ari and Bomber

[jjh927]

I'm getting the feeling that today is going to be either me or Ari, and I don't think I can get behind a Gamma vote at this time.

[jjh927]

We're voting you because your involvement in the game is shit and I highly suspect that scum are somewhere on my colourflip wagon.

[jjh927]

The 24 hours thing was a response to Varsoon.

I don't see any lies or slander in that post.

Sunken cost fallacy applies there because scum have already gone through the effort of painting me purple, and instead of evaluating who they should nightkill objectively, they may be influenced by how they already went through the trouble of painting me purple and mark me down as someone who they need to lynch.

[jjh927]

Could you reiterate why you want me lynched?

[jjh927]

I mainly think you're scum because I am near certain that scum were on my colourflip wagon.

As an exercise, imagine a perspective where I am town and analyse my wagon for me.

VoteCount 2.05

jjh927 [6] - Aristophanes, Varsoon, Fro99er, MaxwellPuckett, Bomberman, jjh927

aptil [1]

- Gamma Emerald

Gamma Emerald [4]

- aptil, Havo, Apricity, Raya36

Not Voting:

No one.

[jjh927]

While we're at it, I think Havo is probably town because he WASN'T on my wagon and he's been kinda blunt and obvious on his angles.

[jjh927]

Go check up on the context of Bomber voting via his iso. I don't think that's scum.


Oh, and while we're at it, you're completely aware of this supposed meta that scum don't start wagons like that, so there's no reason for you not to play to it. If you expect people to believe scum will be in that sweet spot on a wagon, then that's a bullshit argument for you not being scum.

[jjh927]

I get why you included it but it doesn't take suspicion off of you, especially after you try to make it seem like it does.

[jjh927]

What do you think of people off the wagon?

[jjh927]

Na, there's loads of interesting shit off the wagon.

You've got Gamma's vanity vote and you've got the Gamma wagon. If Gamma is scum, then I think the other scum must be on my wagon. I just don't see scum!Gamma getting bussed by his assumedly last teammate when there's a wagon on me, the guy they recoloured.

With that in mind, if Gamma is scum then he's scum with either you or Bomber. I still like Max's overall attitude to this phase and have a pretty firm TR from it. And Bomber voting me is consistent with how he was before my wagon, but it could feasibly make sense as scum. Right now, I think you're more likely, Ari.


But hey, you considered my perspective so I'll consider town!you. I'm gonna say maybe no scum are on my wagon. That means they've avoided it subtly. So in that case, alarm bells go off majorly around Raya, who could have jumped on the Gamma wagon as a non-suspicious option that didn't put her in the line of fire following my colourflip, lynch and townflip.

Thoughts?

[jjh927]

We have 20 hours to put a wagon together and I buy Ari's unvote so unless a lot more people turn up to discuss what we're doing then it's

VOTE: Gamma

I don't actually think Gamma is scum, but his flip will tell me where to look for the scum. If he's town, then both scum can be off my wagon. If he's scum, then the last scum is on my wagon.




Aptil, that's a fair point and I didn't realise that's how things went down.

[jjh927]

I mean yeah, but up until this point I was treating this as me or Ari, and Ari just unvoted without suggesting any other wagons.

[jjh927]

VOTE: aptil

Is it possible to wagon this if we really try

[jjh927]

Well there's a massive amount of scum motivation in the post before I voted if we accept the premise that there's no scum on my wagon. And that's not a given, but if there is scum on my wagon I think it's probably Bomber.

[jjh927]

Nope. I suggested a LOYAL town painter. Painting people blue, but only successfully targeting town, would be a way for town to combat scum's repainting of town.



Oh, and do you understand the difference between a townlean and a townread? Because "I guess he's kind of townleany" isn't exactly a firm townread. Not like the ones I have on everyone on my wagon except him and Ari.

[jjh927]

Ari, I still don't understand why I'm purple and I feel that being simultaneously painted blue and red is a better theory than scum deciding to paint me purple.


Also, that's a solid omgus by aptil.

[jjh927]

Okay, so I've considered two options.

1. Scum painted me purple.

2. I was painted red and blue simultaneously.


So, in the case of 1, why do scum not paint me red? I can't answer this question.

For 2, the question is- who painted me blue? The loyal town painter would be an answer to this question. Their role would be to paint the people most likely to be painted by scum blue. I was definitely at least painted by scum. It is not a stretch to say that if this role was in the game, they could have correctly predicted I would be painted by scum and targeted me.


So I have an answer to the question for option number 2, but can't think of the answer to number 1. Thus, I feel that option 2 is more logical than option 1.




If there is a town painter they should absolutely not claim because their existence would hint at stronger than anticipated scum painting ability and we could not afford to lose them.

[jjh927]

But if that painter was loyal it would be VERY pro town. They could paint people blue in order to counteract scum repainting people. They could paint people weird colours and confrim that they visited the target.

I forget you're only slightly less new than me though, Havo. "Loyal" is a role modifier that means the role can only successfully visit people of the same alignment as them.

[jjh927]

Havo, you clearly don't understand the loyal modifier so I'd suggest you go look at the wiki.

And a loyal painter would specifically be trying to target people that they thought scum would repaint, so me being targeted by both is not a stretch. Scum will try to eventually flip whoever they paint and will pick a target who is likely to be flipped. All of these events are not independent and are correlative so don't pretend it would have to be some crazy coincidence.

[jjh927]

There's very rarely an obvious scum to lynch, Havo.

What are your reads?

[jjh927]

Ugh that's L-1.

[jjh927]

VOTE: Gamma

Got a suspicion that I'm not gonna bring people around on Aptil.

[jjh927]

Townreads: Fro99er, Varsoon, MaxwellPuckett
Townleans: Aristophanes, Bomberman, Apricity
Null: Havo, Gamma Emerald
Scumleans:
Scumreads: Raya36, aptil

[jjh927]

How about you ask me about a few specific reads and I talk to you about them? Because that's how I prefer to roll.

[jjh927]

Voting me isn't necessarily scummy, it just means you're misguided.

I still don't get why scum just decide to paint me purple.



I'm voting Gamma because it doesn't look like I'm gonna get anyone with me on aptil or Raya. Lynching in my scumreads > lynching in my nulls > lynching me > no lynching

[jjh927]

Yeah, that doesn't explain why they don't just paint me red.

[jjh927]

Maybe it's so we don't lynch on sight purple people and thus scum can actually get away with painting themselves purple

[jjh927]

He was a townlean before this phase, mainly because at no point did I like people on his wagon.

[jjh927]

Wagon analysis

[jjh927]

Well, I feel like in the instance where he is scum, the other scum is on my wagon. I think the reverse is true to an extent- he was sitting on a vanity vote, which is a good way of parking a vote away from my wagon in order to diversify somewhat. Also his was a competing wagon with mine.

[jjh927]

I think I just had people I'd rather flip tbh

[jjh927]

Well, I'd kinda like to talk to him tbh.

[jjh927]

Oh and I still hate his colourflip wagon so there's that

[jjh927]

You're already voting me, Frog, and I'm still on L-2 and I'm adding you to my mental list of people who can't read me.

Do you not go over your arguments and think "This is actually a really weak point"? Because it's not too late to say you were wrong yet.

I am not going to counterargue against points I have argued against multiple times that are based entirely around misinterpretations of things I've been saying.

[jjh927]

You're not helping yourself to read me, Frog. You've tunneled to the point where I honestly think you're too stubborn to see sense.

You were NOT the one who was able to read me in RC's game. Actually, I seem to recall you said you were unsure about your read on me. Transcend was the one who correctly read me throughout the game when nobody else did, so put that crap back where it came from.

The Occam's razor point is shit.

The loyal stuff is something I have explained several times over. A loyal painter is the only town role I can imagine that would be capable of painting people. Please actually picture it and its implications rather than just scoffing at the notion.

All the stuff about Ari is factually incorrect and everything following it is bullshit.

[jjh927]

You watched me crush a town game where I had night actions that I could control, a platform where I could talk 1 to 1 with people, and in which I didn't die. I do better at this game the more information I have. I like being able to process information and acquire new information. I don't appreciate being mislynched by town tunneling the shit out of me for no good reason.

[jjh927]

Frog, let me make one thing extraordinarily clear. You are very, very wrong, and I hold you completely accountable.

[jjh927]

Oh, you love this whole "back and forth" narrative but in reality that went scum-town-scum when the whole bomberman vote thing happened, town at the start of day 2 and scum when I asked a question. And I've been scum in your eyes since then.

[jjh927]

If you were able to see sense then you wouldn't be voting me.

And idgaf how much you care about the mislynch in terms of this game. It's more that you're playing shit today

[jjh927]

That pretty much sums it up, yeah

PEdit: Pretty sure your ability to see sense is an integral part of your play.

[jjh927]

Okay, I am sure you are able to see sense in games other than this one

[jjh927]

Assuming scum can't paint blue or red, they paint me purple because it stops me being conftown after my probably colourflip.

[jjh927]

That's the most reason

Well there's a massive amount of scum motivation in the post before I voted if we accept the premise that there's no scum on my wagon. And that's not a given, but if there is scum on my wagon I think it's probably Bomber.

I didn't think scum were on my colourflip wagon at this point, and I still don't.

[jjh927]

That's the most recent reason

Well there's a massive amount of scum motivation in the post before I voted if we accept the premise that there's no scum on my wagon. And that's not a given, but if there is scum on my wagon I think it's probably Bomber.

I didn't think scum were on my colourflip wagon at this point, and I still don't.

EBWOP

[jjh927]

We have 20 hours to put a wagon together and I buy Ari's unvote so unless a lot more people turn up to discuss what we're doing then it's

VOTE: Gamma

I don't actually think Gamma is scum, but his flip will tell me where to look for the scum. If he's town, then both scum can be off my wagon. If he's scum, then the last scum is on my wagon.




Aptil, that's a fair point and I didn't realise that's how things went down.

Exactly what will his flip tell you?

From your POV: At least one scum has to be on your wagon ,both scum off your wagon is an absolute stretch here .The least likely scenario .You have to select one from your wagon , it's just insane that if you're town you think that your flip was a coincidence and not one scum could be on it .

This is the post in question. And it's a lovely example of echo chamber because this word "coincidence" is being thrown around when me being recoloured and me being colour flipped are not independent events- scum recoloured me because I was likely to be colour flipped. We would expect scum to be on the wagon which is a good reason for them not to be on the wagon. Aptil keeps misinterpreting points until he makes a new point to be used against me and then someone else like Havo ends up agreeing with it for some godawful reason

[jjh927]

Because you, someone pretty much universally townread, were pushing me EoD.

[jjh927]

TwoFace red flip looks really bad for JJ.

First he wanted to be the hammer, which looked like him hoping that the TwoFace wagon would stall at L-2 so he didn't have to put TwoFace at L-1.

Then he tried to get a bomber wagon going and almost convinced a few of us to move off TwoFace for it. And now he claims the bomber vote was for reactions, when clearly he was scumreading bomber and said he didn't want to vote scum reads, but then voted his scum read after TwoFace was at L-1

[jjh927]

because I was pushing JJ

he'd want me dead

[jjh927]

VOTE: Aptil

Can we do this


PEdit: Okay, but if scum can't paint red then can they paint blue?

[jjh927]

Also yeah the loyal idea is definitely a reach but if we start assuming scum can't paint either red or blue then the colourflip phase is stacked in our favour and works very differently to the other games. Instead of being a check of decreasing reliability, it becomes a check of limited success, where it fails on anyone repainted.

[jjh927]

Oh and Frog- sorry for being a dick earlier. I could partially justify it with psychology-based reasoning, but I was mostly just being a dick.

[jjh927]

Because instead of getting a false guilty in the case that they paint town and we flip them, we get the equivalent of a no result.

[jjh927]

Oh, because they'd be no-resulted too. Okay, so with those assumptions, it's like switching a framer for a roleblocker

[jjh927]

Gamma is feasible but I'd much rather Aptil or Raya

[jjh927]

I will never resign myself to being lynched as any alignment ever.

Also once Frog unvoted me that opened up the option of lynching in my scumreads that I thought was previously closed.

[jjh927]

Wow 1129 has some serious tonal pings for me

[jjh927]

When did I say Gamma will flip town?

[jjh927]

"I don't think Gamma is scum" and "Gamma will flip town" are two radically different statements.

Do you have a job as a misinterpreter

[jjh927]

But you seem to say that as soon as the day started and did not vote jj for that reason .

At which point scum going "No it's jj we should colourflip him" would probably have the townblock beating down on them before we even got to the colourflip

[jjh927]

There weren't any vigs in either of the other paint games.

Twoface was a standard goon.

Signs point to scum not having red or blue paint.

Infinity was a jailkeeper.

There is not even the slightest hint of a crumb.


I do not believe this claim is plausible.

[jjh927]

The key thing to remember is that both paint games were fairly low-power aside from this colour flip mechanic, and I don't think 1-shot vig fits into that.

It's a clumsy fakeclaim.

PEdit: Leashing sounds good.