Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Highlights and observations in brief:
23: Why didn't Oman jsut shift to Phate when Phate voted NJH for voting Oman?
43-44: something about Y and ryan pulling people of souplfy gets my eye
I think NJH made sense questioning Oman's sef bandwagon- Oman did take getting called out on more seriously than seemed warratned.
Crub and destructor's votes on ryan both look dicey.
During my spectator reading, I believed destructor's claim that the ryan vote was a townie gambit/ruse. Still do.
100: Agree with Oman that this post sucks. There's no logical basis for it at all:
1) Perhaps Y and his partners weren't on it at all?
2) Perhaps 3 scum were on it?
3) Perhaps there's only two scum and it was one and one?
Too much speculation.
~113: I think Phate was trying awfully hard to make destructor look scummy. Ryan and WhoMe jumped right on, too.
122 and 130: I do, in a contrarian fashion, agree with Phate and think it looked like krahven was giving destructor an out, not that he needed it. He'd already explained the ruse.
Phate had a problem wth krahven's 124 (saying Phate thought destructor was "obviously scum"). Looking back at Phate's recent posts, it looks pretty clear you think destructor is scummy. Why else say things like, "Wow, way to give your buddy an out, huh, kravhen?"
~138: Second Y that krahven looks jumpy/over-reactive.
Fascinating back and forth between ryan and Phate, now.
I agree that ryan has some follower like reasons for voting destructor (Y nailed them in 152), but Phate doubles back around saying destructor's scummy but not that scummy and not as scummy as ryan.
186: Crub appears! And adds...nothing, really. Lurker.
189: Oh, wait. He thinks destructor slipped up.
196: souplfy does the same, but seems to do it little better than Crub.
199: souplfy seems to have been scum fishing with his vote on destructor
214: Holy crap- Day 1 massclaim? WTF is soup thinking?
215: Not sure why phate would claim there...
Same for tdp...
I'll have to address this whole Phate/ryan business in my next post, but for the moment:
Appeal to NewbnessPhate wrote:For crying out loud, look at my join date.
I'll come to conclusions shortly. I need to digest.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Absolutely not.
I think it is against the spirit of the game.Fiasco wrote:
Yes -- there's no reason not to encrypt your role at the start of the game, which is usually a breaking strategy. We discussed this in an earlier thread (named "ethics: codes", I think). There should be a rule against this stuff, but it's hard to say where to draw the line.Thoughts?-
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Throwing out various ways his '2 scum on the wagon' could be way off. I didn't even look to see if Y was on the wagon, but just threw the scenario out there.destructor wrote:Y and his partners? What are you saying here?
unvote
vote: thinktank
Each section, in sequence, weaves all over the place. Is he scummy for what he's done or not? Is it enough to have him at -2 or not?thinktank, parsed for emphasis wrote:i will give Phat ethe benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what the safe claim was and its definetly not enough to vote him.
True its scummy
but considering he admitted he didnt know what it was and his join date implies this as well, I don't think he has enough strikes on him to lynch as ryan stated.
But seriously, stop coming up with these oddball ideas, they aren't helping town at all: safe claim and the encrypted claim? really?
Phate's actions are definetly scummy,
being new or not is besides that point however don't hammer him yet-
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I feel like there is a subtlety between Y and ryan I'm missing.
Y: In your last post, you quoted ryan saying what the two slips were, and yourself clarifying, I assume...I don't see any difference between ryan's post and your clarification, and I skimmed back to the original events and don't see the difference between you and ryan there, either.
Can you (or someone) just restate it for me? It has to be as obvious as a Mate in One, but I'm just not seeing it.-
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His initial claim.Phate wrote:Closed setup. The scum will all claim lettuce (vanilla).
@tdp when she questioned his claim.Phate wrote:So you're scum, or more likely, I was wrong in my assumption that all vanillas got lettuce.
After tdp claimed.Phate wrote:So NOW, any vanilla townie who's not lettuce or cucumber (and evidently, rolenames are unique) will know that we're both confirmed vanilla townies. *grins*
Phate wrote:I don't get it. The scum don't have a safe claim. If they did, the way I'd know it would be to be a vanilla, in a game where all vanillas have the same rolename.
.Phate wrote:I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla
Something in these last two just don't jive with the others for me. He came out saying scum would just claim lettuce, but later says they don't have a safe claim because all the vanillas are different. Then his last quote, that if all vanillas were the same that he'd have given them a safe claim...
I don't know. Something about it just seems odd, but it could just be his initial lack of understanding the term Safe Claim causing me to read everything later wrong, even while trying to account for it.-
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This is coming up everywhere, it seems. Sort of like the old square/rectangle line:ryan wrote:Not being pro town IS anti town Phate no matter how you spin it.
Pro-scum is always anti-town, but anti-town is not always pro-scum.
How did Phate's claim help scum? What, besides the clumsy and selfish claim, makes Phate a good lynch?-
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But hethinktank wrote:I said he was worthy of being at lynch-2. If I had voted him then he would have been at lynch -1, which he was not worthy of at that point.wasn'tat -2. I put him at -3 (three posts later) to see if you would get on him.
After the grilling he's gotten I doubt he's scum, but you seemed to not want to touch it at all, despite you're thinking he should have been more pressured.-
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Wow, this thread is hot and stinky.
Can you back that up with something substantive?Crub wrote:Wow chill pill's needed all around methinks.
vote Phate
you're way into negative townie points now.
I've been burned thinking someone is scum just because they flew off the handle, and I haven't been convinced by anyone that the claim thing was scummy.-
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Like what? Without looking back, I'm drawing a blank.destructor wrote:But that's not to say other things Phate has done aren't questionable.
Yes and yes, but they need to be considered with other stuff before they are labeled scummy. Anything anti-town can be scummy, but not all of it is.ryan wrote:gorckat: Do you believe that anti town is bad for town? Do you believe distracting is anti town?
I do think Phate's claim was distracting and anti-town, but it was done for selfish reasons, and it has yielded a lot of discussion, and has earned you a handful of votes for how you've latched onto the arguments around it all.
In fact, I need to re-read the pre-claim stuff, since that's where you originally earned votes, iirc.-
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I burned some time going back and see
1) What Phate had done that might be seen as scummy (bulldogging destructor over the non-vote-vote, even as others were letting it go), though I think it's not damning
2) ryan pushing hard for Oman and destructor lynches (barning opinions back then, as well)
vote: ryan
It's not just hooking up on other's reasons, as you implied was my reason for voting you, even though I didn't (but I did notice how squirmy you're getting, and got early on). The way you went after Oman and destructor smacked of 'easy lynch' motives looking to end the day with a minimum of fuss and discussion also looks scummy.-
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I'm down with a name claim, and second soupfly going first.
I'm not surprised Y went down- he was the most aggressive towards ryan. thinktank surprises me a bit. If it were a vig, I think there were scummier looking targets, and for an SK there are people practically confirmed that make more sense than a useless player.-
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When I saw Y was a cauliflower, I thought "isn't that a white veggie?" Google Image showed them to have green leaves, which I'd never seen. I doubt our own perceptions can be applied to Aimee's ideas. Say "pepper" and I think of a jalapeño. Others might think of the black powder you sprinkle on stuff.
I agree the apparent (can you confirm, tdp?) lack of color specification on Pea (and, to a lesser extent Lettuce- there's red lettuce, irrc) is different, but its what I am- a Green Pepper. I'm sure there's a reason the color is specified.-
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Perhaps there's mafia peppers, thus the color specification. Same for the bean.soup wrote:i also find the green bean(s) suspicious. it was slightly less troubling than the pepper because a green bean is not just a bean that is of the color green. in other words green beans and other types of beans are different morphologically whereas a green pepper and a yellow pepper differ only in color.
Since I wasn't around, I agree the mason should stay out of sight. If they can confirm themselves later, then they're gold in the endgame.
destructor:Didyou get a guilty on Crub?-
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Had you voted him after the fake-vote earlier? That was certainly water muddying, although I think it was useful.destructor wrote:vote destructor
I find that to have been an anti-town move. Muddying the waters is not a good thing in my view.
I don't like the half/fake insinuation of a cop claim- I don't see how its a pro-town move. The fake vote worked because there was a bread crumb asserting it was planned. This just looks reckless.-
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vote: soupfly
1) If you really think I'm guilty, aren't you better off pushing me in spite of a lack of support
2) Moving to Oman for weaker reasons than the 'green' thing- an 's'
3) "theNK" (think tank)...not "one of the NKs"? That seems like you slipped letting on a personal involvement in think's death-
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A borderline semantics thing would be "if I was town, would I have done X" or something like that. What soup said is more significant- it implies an involvement in selecting think.destructor wrote:This is semantics and is almost as much a reach as the 's' argument. Points 1 and 2 you raise were good enough to base a vote on. Was 3 really worth bringing up?-
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vote: WhoMe?
1) I've never seen spinach roasted with beef, and its been shown that your palette and tastes don't line up with other players, and may not line up with the mod
2) There are three claims that don't roast well with beef according to your list, which means A) there'd have to be four scum and B) all three living scum claimed non-roasting veggies or C) if it is 3 mafia + SK, then they the SK also happened to claim non-roasting veggie
I think there's too many coincidences needed to make your split a possibility, and I think you're pushing it from the, shocker, safe side of the split. Its win-win for scum because it doesn't immediately bite you in the ass when you lynch wrong, and if you put one of your partners on the other side, then hitting them would get you an extra day to nab a townie.-
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View his posts alone (the combo boxes at the bottom of the page). He's got a big one that goes over the claims and ones that could be served with a roast beef and ones that aren't.
The problem is the large coincidence it would require- that there are either 4 scum or there are three scum and an SK and in both cases- they ALL claimed non-roasting veg.-
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I pulled 5 quarters out of my pocket the other day- 3 were minted in 1995. Can I conclude that 60% of quarters were minted in that year?
The claims also fit with things planted in January, per a quick Google.Peter Cundall wrote:JANUARY
PLANT:, Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, capsicums, cauliflower, celery, cucumber, eggplant, leek, lettuce, parsnip, pumpkin, silverbeet, late sweetcorn and tomato.-
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Just for kicks, I Googled the terms: Britain, Green Pepper, Roast Dinner
On the first page were three recipes using peppers in roasts (one is red, but still- its a capsicum). One of the wesites is Yahoo UK, another a Canadian one (I think...they're close in some culture, aren't they?) and Food Network.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 114AAoGyEj
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes ... 72,00.html
http://www.tdc.ca/sundayrb.htm-
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Yeah, that was me with the January thing
I would much rather us go after the person pushing a theory that requires so much coincidence (that the scum all claimed the incorrect category of veg).
A thought I just had: assuming the scum used safe claims and WhoMe was right, it would require the mod giving the scum claims obviously not like the others, that is- non roast veg, whichdoesseem bastardly to me.-
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I think this is potentially LYLO, assuming 2 scum and an active 2nd killer (ie, not a one-shot vig):
7- lynch town
6- scum kill 2nd killer
5- 2nd killer kills town
4- left alive and 2 scum could win
I hadn't pegged Oman for Cop at all, but it makes sense to me in a weird way.
FoS: destructorfor the half claim/not a claim when fingering Crub.-
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One of the reasons I didn't vote you. What you did was, as said before, water muddying, and could have drawn Oman out. Looking back to see if he dropped clues as to whom he looked at night one, there were a few times he strongly hinted at being a unique role (such as saying he knew why his name wouldn't match anyone else's).destructor wrote:gorckat and tdp seem to have forgotten at that I admitted I wasn't the cop, too.
Drawing him out in the day could only help scum, which makes the whole half claim thing fishy.
I was, and am, willing to see it as a gambit like the fake vote, but it still warrants attention.
I agree that soup is near confirmed (like 99.9% with the breadcrumb), and Phate I think is because the claim was so sloppy.
In the neutral/slightly scummy rank I'd put destructor and tdp, both with flags raised (tdp's claim could have been scum shooting in to establish themselves).
Crub and Kitty I have to re-read to get a handle on. They've both slipped under the radar. destructor could have been making some space between he and Crub. I'll have to look for links.-
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I refuse to say QFT, but that's what I mean.destructor wrote:Also, I'm not liking the way you seem to be cleaning up the edges of your claim in each post. First you didn't mention the restriction of 2 posts per page or the 150-word limit, then you didn't mention the three strikes rule. You also only mentioned being investigation proof in 680 but in your last post expand that to all night actions besides nightkills.
I'd imagine a person with a restriction like that would be trying to max out each post, especially once people know you have one.-
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