Mini 1955: Perpetual MYLO III - Game Over!

[kunkstar7]

this game feels extremely scumsided mafia controls EVERYTHING a lot of lynches most likely won't happen without bussing if we ever lynch a mafia mafia will just kill whoever is playing the best on town or someone to wifom give credit if we lynch town mafia just kill whoever is playing the worst on there team or someone to make another mafia member look towny all in all this game is basically set up for mafia to get to 3 way with someone in the best spot and 2 towny people they think they can beat. This feels hugely scumsided.

VOTE: Chara

Just take a look at the previous games of this setup. If it were too unbalanced I'd doubt we would be at III. Actually I think the idea of forcing scum onto their own lynches is probably not a problem. What are they going to do, refuse to lynch? That's going to be reaaallll town looking...

[kunkstar7]

It's not much but having perused the last few iterations I was looking to see what Wickedestjr would bring up in regards to his opinion of the setup, and his post about it seems to match his modnotes on his run of the setup. It's an easy thing to do for both alignments but it's about keeping him honest in my opinion. I'd wait to see Wisdon's input but he doesn't have as much to compare to.

Any other game, and I'd vote you. But I don't feel like carelessly spreading a vote.

This is a curious sentiment to me, why is an early vote like this careless? Don't give me "the setup" as an excuse, it's 7 to lynch.

[kunkstar7]

wrong reaction

correct reaction is: VOTE: diamondsentinel

I like this move.

You didn't know all mafia you just said you did for no reason and I didn't feel the need to sit here and go "oh my god I wonder who it could be" when that would just slow the day down and be like "well what now"

This ignores the second part of that gambit post. He posed a question asking for impressions, but your response is to just shut it down and not even take a stab at what he asked? I do admit that his question is basically asking for RVS 2.0, but shutting it down and acting like it could go nowhere is disingenuous.

[kunkstar7]

because the setup means that setting up a path to victory is the correct route not day-to-day

I don't think it'd work out the way you want it to, once you hit the next day you have to reevaluate the state of the game and that can change the path quickly, essentially pushing it back to day-to-day. You're going to spend most of day one arguing for this plan and by the time it gets agreed upon there won't be time to argue the lynchchoices. Could be something we do from Day Two though, even if the first point is still an issue.

acid and diamond look like they will be the prime lynchbait

Where does the acid part come in here? I can see diamond but not acid. I think diamond versus wicked is probably town on town, wicked's vote explanation list feels like a town move to me.

(also I hate the fact that they allowed images into mafia games...)

Can be lynched:

UC Voyager
Carcalilly
Not_Mafia
Brian Skies
Maki

Don't like anything coming from these, mostly from the fact that their contributions are nonexistent. Brian Skies willingness to lynch "lynchbait" doesn't really mesh with his concerns about lining up lynchpaths.

[kunkstar7]

wicked's vote explanation list feels like a town move to me.

What list?

The post where he votes Diamond, he lays out a list of explanations for the vote.

[kunkstar7]

Scum can't explain their votes?

This is a disingenuous line of questioning but I'll bite, the answer is obviously.
It's about the presentation of the vote+list. Wicked is voting DS after having been called out for not switching to DS by acidphoenix, and his listing comes off to me as trying to overjustify the switch in vote in response. You're not going to get Wicked making a move like that as scum, I think Wicked as scum wouldn't have made that vote switch.

[kunkstar7]

Are you scum reading any of the people that

are

contributing?

I don't have any solid scumreads on anyone else just yet. That list wasn't entirely for noncontribution, I had Maki and Brian on there for their own reasons. View it as a snapshot of my feelings on the game at the time. Of those who contributed I already mentioned my opinions of DS and Wicked at the time. Acid's take on DS is pretty linear throughout his iso so I can't find a fault in his position, even if I disagree with it ultimately. Lycan's post on page 8 make me feel like I missed a whole lot of stuff when it came to his "questioning", I skimmed over those and the answers to it because they looked mundane to me.

[kunkstar7]

Wicked, do you think there is a difference between Not Mafia's listing and mine?

[kunkstar7]

Yes I do. Do you not?

Just humor me and explain how.

[kunkstar7]

Also, another difference is that you called your list "Can be lynched" which implies that you would be okay with any of those five players being lynched. I cannot assume the same for Not_Mafia's list. E.g. he might only support a lynch on his top two or three options.

So I can see how my list can be taken in a negative way per your first point, so I concede that. This second point though is iffy to me though, since I think Not Mafia naming people scum is essentially giving his ok for lynch in the same way I did. If you think someone's scum then why would you not be willing to lynch them? I understand the idea of more certain reads than others but Not Mafia didn't give any hint towards that idea.

UC Voyager is a tough one to read here because on one hand his progression makes no sense, especially considering it was an

unvote

as a switch off of Wicked rather than a vote hop. He was leaning pretty hard into his Wicked vote with pretty much no substance but still leaning hard, then the one Not_Mafia post and now its "welp gotta take a look at NM let's forget about Wicked". I think the fact that its an unvote is whats really getting me here. Now the other side of that is I'm not sure him being well-versed in MS play, but seeing as this is not a newbie I'm just going to take this one at face value and throw him into scum side.

Mulch....oh boy. So this is a bit different Mulch coming out here than I saw in the game I just finished with him. This shift places him on the town side based on that meta, but I think he purposely shifted his play a bit around that time period so maybe it's his just going back to normal, so I'm not giving too much weight to it, just my initial thoughts on Mulch coming in.

[kunkstar7]

Honestly just saying "acid is scum because gut or meta or whatever" isn't going to fly. Your gut means nothing to me, and I suspect, to several other players as well.

Hey Maki tell me something..how did you go from

I don't really have much to say at the moment given the posts going on.

to this:

Will hammer acid happily if he gets to L-1 he's scum too

[kunkstar7]

I already said I'd vote acid before I felt no need to rehash that statement all over again my sr on acid never went away

Sure, but I find it hard to believe that a page three comment on a list of initial reactions is enough to warrant a continued scumread on someone? It's not like acid straight up disappeared since then, he put in a bit more content. So you're really set on that one? Also, tell me what you think about Lycan's play so far, specifically his interactions with Chara?

[kunkstar7]

Damn, basically new playerlist. Ok so there's a bit to go over but can't go into depth since on phone, just want to point out that the township someone keeps calling out is pretty much BS because then you have to do the same for the Mulch slot. Not to mention this is the second game out of three I've seen that same thing happen which I've been involved in the other one I think was scumrelated, so no I don't think it's a credible point. I really need to put down a vote at this point but I just don't like any of the top wagons, due to my previous read of their interactions.

(p.s. can we not do the people pictures pretty please they are really jarring)

[kunkstar7]

It feels like an attack on my TR to try to get me to change my mind than actual disagreement.

I disagree on you townreading someone based on that point, so it's both a disagreement and looking to either clarify your townread or make you look at that slot more seriously? If you have additional points in your townread I can't discuss those because I haven't studied them, I'm saying that if that's your whole townread then it's one with no basis and I will judge you accordingly.

[kunkstar7]

Acid is a better lynch here than wicked by a mile,

Vote: Viomi.

[kunkstar7]

Really glad that it was Miu who died, makes dissecting the hammer a lot easier.
Viomi flipping scum has me chilling out my townread of Wicked, I can see the points of it being scum theater. Day One I attributed it to his playstyle considering that he had the same antagonistic style of interactions with DiamondSentinel, but I don't think I can let that one just sit easily. I think Wicked's alignment is going to be pretty crucial to reading DS and few of the other people who interacted with him heavily.

I didn't get to mention yesterday but Shuichi doesn't really sit well with my either. A lot of their given reads and positions are given with the caveat of being willing to back away from them quite easily, or just the general "man I could be totally wrong" vibe that accompanied most given positions just feels very noncommittal to me. Doesn't help that it was UC's slot either.

[kunkstar7]

VOTE: kunkstar
why does Viomi's scumflip initially make you think Wicked is scum too? it doesn't sound like you considered scum theatre until it was brought up, the way you phrased it.

The idea of it being scum theater was presented Day One near the end, I didn't think it had much merit because he had prior interactions that were similar. The fact that Viomi flipped scum actually lends credence to the idea because we have half of the puzzle on scum theater deal.

[kunkstar7]

so you would've thought Wicked more town if Viomi had flipped town?

My opinion of Wicked would have remained unchanged in that case (pending looking at how the wagons developed). I would be back in the original scenario where I didn't think the theater idea had any merit.

[kunkstar7]

Really glad that it was Miu who died, makes dissecting the hammer a lot easier.

What does this mean too

Miu was originally on the Wicked lynch, and judging by their tone they really didn't want to lynch Viomi over Wicked. If Miu hadn't been killed we would have to figure out the intent behind the switch. For example, why would Miu switch rather than allow someone else to switch or allow Dunnstral to vote on a lynch instead? But it's all moot since we got the flip, and we can read Miu's actions with their alignment known.

[kunkstar7]

a lot of this going on in the last few pages here. are they scum too?

I'd have to look it over but no one else stuck out to me on that point like Shuichi did on D1. Anyone in particular you're pointing out?

So the Wicked wagon makes sense considering it was one all through D1, but the Wisdom one is lost on me a bit here. Especially someone like Dunnstral...so what's your reasoning Dunnstral on the Wisdom wagon?

[kunkstar7]

So looking at it myself, the Wisdom wagon has no basis. Maki doesn't give anything to support it besides essentially doing exactly what Wisdom is doing, just repeating "hey this person is scum". The one paragraph of reasoning boils down to "I don't like how Wisdom doesn't give anything to support his reads further" which is pretty much nonsense if you go through Wisdom's iso. Sure there's a lot of pressing on that Wicked is scum but he's got his feel of the game there.

Wicked is obvious scum, Chara is obvious buddy who's stalling for him, Maki is obvious scum who's doing nothing and then there is the dumb looking duo of kunkstar and Dunnstral, one of which is the last scum with the other actually being shit at mafia.

I think this is a decent enough assessment of the game so far. I think that the assessment of Dunnstral's slot having to follow the Mulch's slots hard push on acid makes sense, and that being the missing reasoning for Dunnstral being in this paragraph. Interesting enough, I want to note that only Wisdom and Lycan seem to be strong holdovers of the Wicked lynch from D1, with everyone else ambivalent about Wicked's alignment. Just noting this for myself for when Wicked flips.

Vote: Wickedestjr.

[kunkstar7]

With the Wicked and Wisdom flips I think we are looking at Dunnstral and Maki as two of 3, I'm not sure about Chara or Kaede, and I'll just go with Wisdom on DS. Looking at my end of day note places Lycan pretty squarely on the town side, due to the 2 day long focus on Wicked. Shuichi is another eh slot, but previous reads of Shuichi has me inclined to be slot 3.

[kunkstar7]

Vote Count 1-13

Wickedestjr

(4): Wisdom, Lycanfire, DiamondSentinel, Miu Iruma

DiamondSentinel

(3): Viomi, Shuichi Saihara, Dunnstral

kunkstar7

(2): Wickedestjr, Maki Harukawa

Viomi

(2): Chara, Kaede Akamatsu

Not Voting

(1): kunkstar7

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: November 2, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2017-11-01 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Wickedestjr is V/LA until Monday Oct 30
-

This is the VC just before Viomi starts taking off, after replacements. I'm no longer a wagon in D1 here but we still have wicked on me, Viomi on DS. No known bussing until it's forced into only scumwagon options. Wisdom, Lycan, Miu on Wicked, probably all 3 town (2 confirmed.) Maki and Dunnstral both following the same idea (assuming myself and DS as town because why make three scum wagons from Viomi's perspective?), So I still feel good about my read on those two.

[kunkstar7]

Maki selfvoting is a pretty shitty thing to do, but it doesn't really hold much sway in my read on her. It means we should probably just do Dunnstral first, but that's still giving the gambit more than it should be worth.

[kunkstar7]

I dropped this:

Vote: Dunnstral.

[kunkstar7]

What we do first actually matters quite a bit.

I meant that letting Maki's selfvote influence what we did first is giving too much weight to the selfvote.

[kunkstar7]

meantime: of the people that want Dunnstral I really only care for Kunkstar's thoughts on the matter. why's that vote so good for you?

For me, Dunnstral as scum comes across strongest in my analysis of the wagons for the previous two lynches, especially D1. I think having both of the major wagons D1 scum placed scum in a really weird place. Wicked, Dunnstral, and Maki all exhibited similar behavior by either avoiding the major wagons for the most part, or like Wicked only hopping onto one of the two until it was inevitable. I do have the benefit here of knowing my own alignment and also being one of the larger initial wagons D1, so I think the vote changes I'm seeing probably hold a bit more weight for me than any other town player looking at it.

I have the same sentiment here as Lycan, that while we

could

win with mislynches, a perfect game is much preferable for me. Maki suggesting that it's acceptable to mislynch just because we can rubs me the wrong way.

[kunkstar7]

Maki suggesting that it's acceptable to mislynch just because we can rubs me the wrong way.

Can you explain your thought process?

I understand that the objective is to get 3 points aka three scum lynches. This means in theory that we can afford at most two mislynches but still win, that's an objective evaluation of the game state. Despite that, I am looking to get the final point today, rather than just taking a shot in the dark and saying "well if I'm wrong we can always try again tomorrow.", because I value a perfect town win as an obtainable goal (a few others have expressed as much, but this occurred following Maki's statement so I won't use it here).

Why is it very bad for scum to get 1 point.

This statement, with the context that I think is her referring to if we lynch her and it turns out that Maki really is town, is a really lax view of the game and reveals a mentality that is not town. I think the natural motivation for a town player in this situation is to look for a final scum, to complete the objective that the past two lynches have reinforced as motivators towards completing the objective. By saying that we can freely throw a mislynch today is demonstrating a lack of that motivation, which would only be present in a scum player who hasn't had the same milestones for motivation on their path to completing an objective.

[kunkstar7]

Maki Harukawa

(2): Kaede Akamatsu, Maki Harukawa

Dunnstral

(2): Chara, kunkstar7

kunkstar7

(1): DiamondSentinel

Not Voting

(3): Lycanfire, Dunnstral, Shuichi Saihara

I'm doing this because we have 2 mls and if everyone wants to keep focusing on me I will do what I see needed to get talk going on the real targets

This doesn't mesh. You are only 1 of the 2 votes on you. Self-voting doesn't answer anything that's put forth as to why you would be scum, and the insistence that you are trying to get people talking doesn't make sense either as you haven't advanced anything for discussion or provided alternative reads for a lynch. You can't say you want talk about real targets when you don't mention who the real targets are.

[kunkstar7]

We are talking about Dunn, I've even voted Dunn. No comments on anything I've said about it though? Also, honestly I can't tell from your ISO who your prime picks for scum are. I see you mention you want to talk about Dunn, but not this second part.

[kunkstar7]

Lycanfire you Dunn Shuichi is my pool~

Ok lets step through this then, starting with Lycan. Anything specific why he's scum? What do you think of his placement on the Wicked wagons D1 and D2?

[kunkstar7]

The more i think about it, the less sense this game state makes

Spoiler:

I disagree, I think the game makes sense, we've got two scum wagons, and scum doesn't want to end the game yet. I'm questioning whether I'm opposed to switching to Maki over Dunnstral, but leaning towards being find with it. I really want Shuichi to take a stance first though.

[kunkstar7]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lycan
I changed my mind.

Do you feel like this is a productive use of your vote right now? Is Lycan actually a viable wagon? I'll pose the same question I did to Maki earlier (which is still unanswered), what do you think about Lycan's position on the Wicked wagons D1 and D2 and how does it factor into your read?

[kunkstar7]

The amount of waffling these last pages or most of this day tbh is crazy. Dunn's got the least going for him, bad interactions, bad vote placement, no crazy gambiting, just bad. How is it so difficult for even the people who agree with me on this to just accept that and get the lynch? There's exactly one person who makes the most sense for a lynch, let's just do that then if I'm wrong everyone can have fun sorting out their feelings the next day. We won't have to though.

[kunkstar7]

kunkstar has fewer posts than UC Voyager.

And hey...I may be a shitty player but at least I don't have dots as multiple posts.

[kunkstar7]

There's kunk kinda active lurking for ?

Speaking to your reference here - I made my position for today pretty clear, I don't know what more you would expect for me to say that would clarify my position?

[kunkstar7]

Well your position ammounts to "Dunn is obv scum and there's no point in looking everywhere else unless he flips town, in which case we can do that tomorrow"
Am I wrong?

I think that's a fair summation. What differentiates that from Wisdom's similar play D1 and D2 though? This maybe a game view difference, I'm giving a lot of weight to D1 and D2 over stuff happening current day because short of some weird scum slip I don't think that stuff being said by unconfirmed people is going to have as much effect on my reads as interactions between the knowns. Do you disagree with my position? In what ways has Dunnstral been town at all this game?

[kunkstar7]

Of course it's entirely possible I have missed a post of yours where you express stances on other people, specially with you barely being around it's easy to forget stuff, if i've done so my bad, and would you please quote it for me?

So I think I had it posted once near the beginning of this day but to reiterate my initial reads:
Scum:
Dunn
Maki - My only reservation on this read is the fact that both Dunn and Maki are the top wagons. I doubt this is repeat of D1 but I don't know.

The Greys (in order of likely scum):
DiamondSentinel
Shuichi
Chara
Kaede

Town:
Lycan

I haven't expressed much about the middle of the pack because most of those people are the ones going on about how they have no idea about the gamestate. I'm trying to figure out which ones are sincere about that sentiment. I'll admit that I've tunneled a bit here on Dunn, but its just my reading of the middle of the pack just hasn't given me anything as conclusive as Dunn.

Like put yourself in my position, obviously if you're town you know you're town, but that doesnt help me game solve at all, it's like you're asking me to take your scum read and sheep it and if you're wrong then 'who cares?'. Like is that literally what you're implying?

I'm not asking you to sheep. i'm asking you to take a look at my position on why Dunn is likely scum, see that it makes sense, then having understood why Dunn is scum, vote him. You don't need to solve the entire game, you just need to find one of the three remaining. When you've got a solid scumread on someone, that's your one of three.

[kunkstar7]

So I take it from that that these are your reads in order from towniest to scummiest?

Lycan
Me
Chara
Shuichi
DS
Maki
Dunn

Just wondering if i misinterpreted something there.

That's the list.

[kunkstar7]

I'd appreciate Dunnstral stop lurking. But I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
Kunk needs to eat rope for lurking so much. 39 posts over 3 days is unacceptable in any conditions.

How is my lurking worse than Dunn's? Specifically why do I need to be lynched versus Dunn who you just ask to "post more"? Is there something wrong in my posts? You can't just coast on quantity here, 39 is plenty enough to have actual content to call out.

[kunkstar7]

You have half of the posts as Dunnstral. So there's why it's worse than Dunn.

You have half the amount of four other players currently alive, so that makes you less town than them? Glad I got that read right then.

[kunkstar7]

PEdit: I have also actually contributed to the conversations enough for people to have reads on me.

And? What, there's

nothing

for you to comment on in my posts? Apparently there's only a little to go through, can't be that hard.

[kunkstar7]

Come on Kaede you can do better than that...at least if I get lynched the votes for this day are going to be very informative for whoever is left.

[kunkstar7]

but, no. it still doesn't work. if kunk is town, Maki can't be scum. they have to be the same alignment, scum or town. because scum Maki hammers then sacrifices herself.
kunk could be scum with Maki town, but Maki can't be scum with kunk town.

I think this ends up being my thoughts on Maki after all that just went down. There's no opportunity cost for scum Maki hammering there with the mechanics.

[kunkstar7]

Do it Maki, give in to your anger~
The most frustrating part of this lynch is it's going to deprive town of the easy scum lynch when they just sac whichever of Maki/Dunn is scum (obv Dunn).