1542: Book of Shadows Vol. 1 ~ Game Over

[mastin2]

Yo.

Dear mastin,
You've replaced into an obvtown slot! Congratulations!

now give me something to sheep or eat rope

Love ns

How 'bout I sheep you for now, instead?

Vote: ProHawk

.

I'll get to a readthrough later today. I'd prefer a rundown of things so far to help me, though.

[mastin2]

Mollie died N1
There are two types of kill, a poison and a direct (we're not sure if it's a SK or just alternating maf kills)

?
The first post has mollie listed as D1, and two deaths N1. A burned flavor and a shot flavor. Am I not getting something?

[mastin2]

How would this help you?

Well, because our masonhood is fairly empty, of course!

(Serious answer: because seeing the perspective of others helps give me a better perspective myself. It's one thing to read events chronologically without insight into the future ones. It's quite another to read those same events knowing what happens, at least, what happens through the eyes of other players. In particular, if someone's perspective doesn't match what I see when I read, there's typically going to be a reason why.)

[mastin2]

So two scum between you, Shrimp, Mastin and Serra.

Alright, I'll run with that.

VOTE: serrapaladin.

[mastin2]

Did a quick skim of the later part of Wisdom's iso, and saw some Prohawk suspicion. I'm wondering what people think of a serra/Hawk team.

[mastin2]

@mastin: why do you not have a problem with squirrel's claim?

It seems like a plausible claim and a plausible role. The question isn't if it's a real claim (seriously, who makes that kind of thing up?), but if it's a town power. In other words, you can bet the claim is (or at least, is mostly) real. The iffy part is on alignment. But even there, I sorta think town anyway, since the whole circumstance surrounding it seems superficially town.

...But this is just my preliminary take on it. I'll give you a much better idea when I've finished catching up.

[mastin2]

mastin. work with us please.
that leaves serra and ph

*points to vote history*

VOTE: ProHawk.
Will go here, though.

[mastin2]

Still thinking serra/ProHawk, but will get back to y'all later. Maybe tonight, but no promises.

[mastin2]

Apologies. Cut off my internet early last night 'cause I got weirded out by some creepy person having somehow gotten in touch with me. Will also be V/LA over the weekend, so might not have time to fully read until the game goes into night. (Which I will be doing this game, since I've got no fear of my effort being wasted.)

Still thinking serra/ProHawk, but will get back to y'all later. Maybe tonight, but no promises.

Why are MC and Shrimp town?

It's not so much them being town as it is you two being scum. However, MC does vaguely feel town, and so does shrimp. It's nothing specific, just the overall vibe of their posting.

When I see MC and shrimp posting, I think, "oh, yeah, these guys look town".
When I see you and serra posting, I think, "oh, yeah, these guys look like scum".

Soooooo...as bad an answer as it is?
...Gut.

[mastin2]

Why do you think that I'm creepy?

(No, I was actually serious.)

Nero, you're an awesome person. I place my trust in you, my good buddy. You're anything but creepy. I rely on you.

I think he's town, but not so much that I don't want a flip and also I think you're all playing badly and all of you are probably scum.

Take back my townread here, by the way.

I'm not entirely averse to lynching PH with him not voting MC despite building a case against them. Unfortunately him flipping scum will probably lead to my lynch tomorrow, but what can you do?

I'm not sure what to do about mastin, but I'm obviously not getting a response out of her, nor is lynching her looking likely, so fuck it.

Intent to hammer

Know what?
Screw this. ProHawk is town. Serra/Squirrel are scum.
VOTE: serrapaladin.

[mastin2]

From memory, what do you like about desp's posts?

They seem more in line of what I remember town-Desp being than scum-Desp.

do you think squirrel's claim is legit given the setup?

Do I think Squirrel's claim is possible? Yes, I do.
Do I think Squirrel's claim is real? Not anymore--at least, not entirely. I fully believe that, regardless of her alignment, most of Squirrel's claim is going to be true. It's just that as scum, the alignment would be different, and the potential for lying about the exact nature of her powers becomes a possibility.

ProHawk is town because Serra gave intent to hammer? How is SG scum?

No, I thought of ProHawk's most recent posting, thought I didn't have an issue with it, but DID have an issue with the serra/squirrel tag-team appeal-to-fear of deadline passing. Especially since both had that same attitude of, "welp, he's town". That SCREAMS getting-free-mislynch-to-set-up-lylo-win, because in lylo they can say, "HA! Told you so!" and go after, saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, shrimp.

how about squirrel first?

Sure thing! But serra actually has support now, from ProHawk. I'll switch to whichever wagon grows larger. We do need to consolidate on one of the two, but I find them about equally good lynches.

[mastin2]

looks like it's serra. i guess he is more scummy than prohawk kinda. just judging from the games i have played with them. game with serra, he read me as town after some time, and vice versa for me to him. now, i'm not getting that certainty. otoh, prohawk is sneaky, and hard to trust... a good player. so that's why i'm not 100% with him
i guess it could be both of them. but, i don't really think so, considering that prohawk is going after him now. seems too risky, if they were both scum partners.
so ya, it's squirrel and serra/ph for me. leaning serra scum and ph town

Well, then, join the wagon.

I was hoping to be able to do this tomorrow, but I'm bored of this and the timing of this push means it'll probably go through by deadline, so go ahead and lynch me if you want to after I've said this.

This is not a town line of thought. It's specifically hiding a weapon, with the intention of using it to clear someone (a scumbuddy) when they fall under heat. Desp should recognize the tactic; I exploited it for all its worth in Anything Goes.

squirrel is more or less conf-town. Smudger's claim of SANE cop is almost certain to be genuine, as that is how mala (as opposed to most other mods) names her cop role, and no third-party joat would have any reason to have a role with a "sane" prefix.

Counterpoint: all it'd take for Smudger to know this as scum is for sane cop to be a part of his fakeclaim. And that being ridiculously-plausible makes this point absolutely laughable.

Mastin: are you a positive utility town role that would allow titus to make a setup based argument for smud/squirrel-scum?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeahhh, not answering this. For obvious reasons.

[mastin2]

I didn't want to point out your slot's various soft claims because that again would have been better used tomorrow.

What town reason is there in outting a perceived softclaim? There is little/none. What scum-reasoning is there in outting a perceived softclaim? So that their scumbuddy can see it, and shoot away.

So you're saying you think mala gives full fakeclaim role PM's, rather than telling scum a certain character isn't in the game?

You erroneously assert these are mutually exclusive, when in fact, they're mutually inclusive. There are only. ONLY. two ways to give scum fakeclaims and have it work.
The first? Give them a full fakeclaim from the onset. (In which case, Sane Cop would be part of the fakeclaim.) Mala may not do that.
The second? Tell them a character isn't in the game...and offer, on request, to provide the flavor for the scum player's choice in fullclaim. In which case, the scum player requested cop as part of their fakeclaim, and Mala generated Sane Cop because that would be the format she'd use for a town claim.

The process differs, but critically, the results do not: scum can have the Sane Cop tidbit in their fakeclaim.

Arguing otherwise is arguing that the game can be completely and entirely broken by a D1 massclaim; the scum not knowing the flavor behind their roles would doom them to death. So assuming any level of moderator competency at all, scum either have onset-fakeclaims or can acquire fakeclaims when required. You're saying the former isn't possible, but the latter is standard operating procedure.

For instance? Scum JOAT, with powers working similarly to the claimed mechanic. Rolecop instead of cop. Asks for a fakeclaim which has the cop. Mala generates a claim to fit the scum's specifications to the best of her ability, including making the Sane Cop distinction. This is moderating procedure 202. (Not quite 101, since it's a theme.)

I think I'll refrain from further speculations about the setup in the chance mastin is town.

Thing is, you wouldn't be speculating at all if you thought I was at all town...which you do.

[mastin2]

Scum are MC and one of {mastin, shrimp, PH}.

why not squirrel girl?

(Because they're scumbuddies.)

[mastin2]

@Mastin - town you walls it up, I am of the opinion that scum you does not.

Excuse me while I do a very un-Mastin like thing.
Ahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH.
EHEHEHUHEHUHEHUHEH.

...

No.

A scum-me walls more often than a town-me. Was true way back in 2009, and has continued to be true in my games throughout the year, for one simple reason: a town-me can't describe things as well, and often doesn't bother. A scum-me can describe things well, thus, bothers. Know why my posting as scum got shorter? Because it became such a strong scumtell for me to have walled that much. (I wall regardless of alignment. I walled more as scum, though.) As one recent scumgame where I did nothing but wall, you can look at my contributions as Unmasked Kit in Anything Goes. My posting should be obvious enough, since there's a massive tone difference between Katsuki and I.

Your posts are pretty sparse and I think Serra has a point that you're not discussing things.

I am talking. I have also promised to give a full readthrough during the night phase, since I can afford to do so. (I can guarantee the results will get through tomorrow.)

Would still prefer a serra or Squirrel lynch. Squirrel looks not to have support, though.

[mastin2]

As long as you're looking to talk about it some more I'm still looking for your feedback about the meta thing.

Bluntly, that meta is absolute entire bullshit. And the only reason. Literally the ONLY reason. I haven't put the effort into showing why. Is because it's so damn obvious. SO. damn obvious. That I wouldn't bother doing one or two. I'd track down every single town game of mine where I wallposted less, and track down every single scum game of mine where I walled. And not just track them down! Compare them, to contemporary games of the opposite alignment! For instance, a towngame where I didn't wall was Gundam. A scumgame contemporary to that? Anything Goes, where I wallposted like a champ. My very first scumgame? Wallposted like a champ. (OhGodMyHamlet, I believe. If not, OhGodMyVillage.) Contemporary towngame? (Around that same newbie range.) Barely any wall at all. Three of my final games as a VI? (Emerald City as scum, Jebus's large as lyncher, and Phables Death Note as town.) All wallpost games ridiculously long, one as each alignment, but the scum game had the walls be longer and more consistent than the other two. Oh, and other games around that time? Lurking as town and barely posting content; wallposting as scum, and posting plenty. Ooh, but how about after my return from vacation? Surely my walling was curbed, then. And it has. But as both alignments--yet my posting as scum was still worse. Compare Newbie 1024 (scum) to Newbie 1048 (town); 1048 had shorter posts. But that was in 2010, surely it's changed since then. How 'bout random games from 2011? You'll find things like Mafia on Werewolf Island as scum (wallposting like a champ), and similar (but overall shorter) walls as town from that time. But by now, that was three years ago. Except the trend continues into 2012. And even into 2013, where I even pointed out in one or two of my games (among them, a newbie): my scum-self being able to explain things better, posts more. My town self not being able to explain things as well, posts less.

Oh, and all of this? Just a wall without me linking to a single example. Because it's not needed. Because I've literally had 140+ games under my belt. ~35 as my original account, probably ~20 as alts, and likely another ~30 or so on hydras, with approximately 5 or so lost partially or entirely to the rollback, but even subtracting all of those arbitrary numbers (which're likely on the larger side), you end up with at least 50 (if not more) games of mine that're purely me you can read. You can randomly pull up three town games and three scum games and literally say anything you please to make them fit a narrative, simply because I have so many games to choose from.

I know my meta better than anyone else. And you trying to invoke post-length meta to scumread me? Is absolutely laughable. You give three examples? I can give at least six to counter it. I'm not, because I'm lazy, because that's effort, because that's a lot of work for very little reward (just showing how full of shit you really are), and because bluntly, as I said, it's simply not needed.

But if anyone who's town actually is considering listening, sure, yeah. I'll do the dance. Otherwise, that you're scum pushing a shit case should be self-evident.

My case on Messiah Complex is basically that he's pushing the ProHawk case on the fake sounding forgot we started at night thing.

Not to mention hypocrisy, since your case on me (meta) is about as fake as it gets. Like I said. With how many games I've played? RIDICULOUSLY. easy. To say anything you damn-well please about me and back it up with a link. I've covered the complete spectrum of plays. Basically every single style of play that people think can be used, I've employed at least in one part of my career, as both town and scum. Every move, every gambit, every style, everything. Heck, I helped invent a fair number!

A case on me being scum built from meta isn't impossible. You'd basically focus on things that show my mindset as town and mindset as scum. A case on me being scum from

post-length

? Is about as fake as it gets.

VOTE: Squirrel Girl.
Pro-Hawk is the scumbuddy. Their discussion today shows as much.

[mastin2]

Do explain Mastin. What about our discussion makes me the scum buddy?

Your interactions with Squirrel Girl today SCREAM scumbuddy-talking-to-scumbuddy, just waiting for the town players to vote a town player. The banter doesn't look like town-talking-to-town, or even town-talking-to-scum. It looks, very strongly, like scum talking to other scum as part of a formality, essentially to look good while they wait and lurk, essentially, to town voting town. (I'm guessing MC, here. Scienceshrimp has shown interest, and if Nero also thought that appealing...bam. Mislynch.)

Also, your case on me here seems to be 'I disagree with her take on my meta, even though I am arguing that it's possible to look at my meta and conclude anything as my defense'. It doesn't parse out.

Not quite. I'm saying that someone can say literally anything about my meta...and doing so like you did is a damn-strong scumtell. I'm also saying that it's possible to analyze my meta and come to some accurate conclusions about my play. Your shallow meta did no such thing. Additionally, while your craptastic 'case' against me would be reason enough for me to scumread you (given as how said craptastic case is literally the only thing you say makes me scum), there's more. Your role is possible, but not plausible, in the setup. Your play has been highly manipulative and just plain wrong. You are not town. I am sure of it.

I'd be willing to lynch prohawk.

So am I, but my Squirrel Girl scumread is much stronger.

Nero still being alive also greatly concerns me.

That would be because he's my mason buddy, and obviously, I'm inclined to protect him from harm.

Also, I'm a she. Not a he.

I mean, if my case on her was bad, so was...whichever of your heads made the meta town case on her, and she felt no need to disabuse you of that notion apparently.

Though the meta case by scienceshrimp was mostly wrong, it was not entirely wrong--more than that? I could actually understand where it came from, even though I knew it was not even close to entirely correct. Yours? Yours, on the other hand, if the idea had any merit,

is rats-ass backwards from what it should be

. It's not the act, nor the conclusion, even. It's how it's done.

To follow up that thought, let's even say she's convinced my case is the derpiest derp to have ever derped.

Except you don't derp. Not as town. That you're saying you derped is itself a scumtell. Because while I might not know who your main is (I don't bother putting effort into finding an alt's main, even though I'd be fairly good at it), I know that you're a dang-competent town player. Your scumread on me for absolutely crap reasoning then, itself, becomes a scumtell, and trying to say that it's a derp-case from you only amplifies that.

I also think town Mastin would have reasoning.

Also rats-ass backwards. Providing reasoning* was, is, and always will be, a classical scumtell of Mastin. There's a

reason

I 'joked' for the longest time, "If Mastin makes sense, she's scum", or the like, in which I pointed out logic being a scumtell. (A very strong instance of this being Mindreader Mafia, where I used QT manipulation to its absolute maximum. It's among my top-five performances as scum of all time for basically being the epitome of scuMastin.)

*Rather, I always give reasoning. Contrary to Squirrel Girl's claims, I've already done so for her, too. The difference between a scum me and a town me is that a scum me can give

extensive

reasoning, whereas a town me just has a general idea and struggles to verbalize it.

[mastin2]

Talk to me about how my PR isn't plausible.

I remember some speculation about the flavor and it not matching up. I also think that it doesn't fit, now that I think about it, knowing what I do of the setup, at least as town. It seems like something that does exist, because those powers claimed don't smell like fakeclaims. But that doesn't mean they're town; every usage of your ability I can easily see actually coming from a scum JOAT.

I'm scum because...I'm too competent as town to mess up my take on your meta?

Again, you're strawmanning my points. This is one of them, but not the entirety of them, but yes. Relying on meta near-exclusively to read me wouldn't be a cardinal sin if not for the fact that said meta is completely and entirely backwards from what it should be.

And also because I'm so incompetent as scum I'll have some sort of weird scum/scum talk with my scumbuddy right at day start...because...?

Who said you were incompetent as scum? That talk with your scumbuddy at the beginning of the day is brilliant scum play, not incompetent scumplay.

You're not an incompetent scum player. Attacking me is

smart

, because doing so would reveal my hand if I got too emotional (I can basically conftown myself), and if I waited too long to reveal it, could force a mislynch onto me. It also allows you to place your vote on me in filler, so that you can switch onto MC in a heartbeat.

Her case is about how I'd be too competent as town to make this bad of a case on her...but apparently in her head, when I'm scum, I'd lose all my competence and just go for it. Because, with MC and ProHawk out there I have NO easy wagon to go to. Mastin isn't thinking things through at all, because Mastin is scum freaking out that I caught her. I really feel this works well to explain the narrative we've experienced.

A case against me isn't incompetence as scum; it's brilliance. Different alignments have different motivations, different causes. That's scumhunting 203, but if I had my way, it's be 102. (It's a fundamental of the game I teach, even though it takes a long time to master.) The motivation of a town player is to find scum through analysis, and convince players using reasoning. Your case was neither. The motivation of a scum player is to manipulate town, and to set up a victory in the eventual lylo. Your posting is quite strongly this.

MC is a wagon you can go to. In fact, you will, because of some BS like "well, guess we can't lynch Mastin, so we might as well lynch her buddy". Because your vote on me? Is filler. It's meant to look good, not actually be good, because while you can post more and more on me being scum, you're never getting two of {Nero, MC, scienceshrimp} onto me. MC, sure. But scienceshrimp, no, and Nero, also no. A lynch on me is literally impossible, and a scum-you knows it. It's you stalling, basically posting to look good, for your attacks to look more legitimate, in the hopes nobody realizes that you're scum, who's biding time for an MC mislynch.

ProHawk is your scumbuddy. So obviously you're not going to go there.

The plan is stupidly simple. Post about who's scum, while not attacking your main candidate, MC. When town players are feeling like compromising, MC gets brought up. (Or perhaps they're already voting MC.) You hop on, pointing out you're also suspicious of them, and bam. Bingo. Mylo mislynch; game over.

[mastin2]

@Mastin - so my plan, as scum, is to post filler and avoid pushing on MC, even though I've already established myself as not liking MC and easily could just push him today, and my reason to do this is to discredit you...because that matters if I can get a mislynch, and part of my masterful three part plan included telling my scumbuddy to act confused about me not going after MC at the start of today, and also for him to go after shrimp in an attempt to *also* I guess lull town into a compromise on MC.

You make a lot of assumptions about my case on you.

No, your plan is to avoid pushing MC so that you can switch ONTO MC. I already described this.

Have you actually caught up though, I am way past the titillated point when it comes to wanting some reads from you.

And if you were actually town, you'd still desire them from Nero.

I'm pretty sure Mastin has seen town make meta scum cases on her before, and I'm willing to bet she doesn't always rage vote them immediately.

'Course not. There's nothing in a game I always do. I have flipped out on players making scum-meta cases on me before, and quite justifiably so.

Oh heck no you lying piece of scum. You are no tracker son. I am more than happy to die to seal your fate Des, but people should consider the possibility of two scum-kills tonight, or a scum-partner that is in the bag. Can't think of any other reason why scum would self-sacrifice.

VOTE: MC

Guess I am a sucker for crappy play, you should have been dead yesterday.

Not a town reaction.

Hey MC, convienient that you have two results on a dead guy, one on a claimed target, and Titus/Mastin which you either know won't catch you in a lie or is your partner and one implicating me which is false.

If they were scum, how exactly would they know I wouldn't catch them in a lie?

I think that we're certain that ProHawk is scum

This is not something someone says who has tracked someone to the night-kill.

What nightkill?
MC said they tracked you to Squirrel Girl...who is still very much alive.

VOTE: ProHawk.
I'm not sure who's the scum between shrimp and MC. But that definitely reeks of having been a scumslip, of SG being targeted to die via poison.

As for my claim:
Phoebe Halliwell, youngest sister of the charmed ones. I have the ability of premonitions, which is a x-shot jailkeeper. I'm also basically a mason with Nero, who I used a shot on last night. Titus did in fact not use a JK on Nero N3, but I would prefer not specifying the other nights just like I'd prefer not specifying what x equals.

Obviously, I prefer shrimp to go next.

[mastin2]

Also, can you explain the fluff for premonitions = jailkeep.

It didn't so much explain the roleblock half of the JK as it did the protection half. Seeing the future when touching them. My guess is that the roleblock comes from the protection requiring my physical presence or something like that.
Like, none of this comes from my role PM, but I basically envision it as being that I can protect them from harm, but only if I'm basically ferrying them around all-night away from harm, and that the ferrying away prevents them from doing anything during the night. Akin to the flavor I used for the jailkeeper in Maniacal Street Mafia, and using a van to transport them throughout the night.

The ability itself is only a line or two of flavor. Kinda vague overall; I'm under the impression the mod basically just assumed we'd fill in the gaps.

Is there anyone here with a brain?

Yep, me!

YOU ARE DOUBTING MC WHO FAKE-CLAIMED A GUILTY ON ME, BUT ARE STILL VOTING ME EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK HE COULD BE SCUM?!?

Yeah? Because I'm not ruling out a cross-bus for towncred, with you having scumslipped accidentally revealing too much. MC might be scum, but if the scumslip's true, you ARE scum.

[mastin2]

MC is scum, and that much will be evident with mine or his flip. What bothers me is how his results implicate Mastin. If scum has a role-cop, they would know her role but not when she used it. So either MC is a scum-tracker, or MC and Mastin are scum-together, or someone told him when she used her role. OR scum wins tonight with a mis-lynch.

Oh, I'm almost certain MC's results are mostly true and come from a tracker. The only question is if it's a scum tracker or not.

Because I'm not ruling out a cross-bus for towncred, with you having scumslipped accidentally revealing too much.

LOL! My "supposed slip" came AFTER the fake-guilty.

...Which just proves my point? A cross-bus for the towncred, which was going fine, except you scumslipped in response to the fake-guilty. That's exactly what I'm saying could have happened.

But either way.
MC-town.
MC-scum.

I fully believe you to be scum.

[mastin2]

So if MC flips scum, then you still think I am scum? Because why again? What exactly do you think I slipped on?

MC claimed you visited SG; you reacted that you didn't visit the nightkill. SG is still alive. Thus, regardless of MC's alignment, you're scum.

[mastin2]

Mod: V/LA for the next week. ESPECIALLY Thursday-Sunday.

My grandmother's dieing. She's in a coma, and fading fast. She's the relative I go to visit in southern Oregon each year, meaning that when I go down there, I'm obviously going to be V/LA, emphasis on the Limited Access. I'll do what I can to keep playing, though.

I would actually like both of them to weigh in on which one of the two are scum and why.

Aaaaaaaand, this is the sort of thing to come from scum. I'm not going to make a case I don't believe in. I can do analysis to see which of Shrimp/MC is scum, but that's a bridge to cross tomorrow. Today, we're lynching scum. Not getting distracted by hunting for potential buddies and potentially lynching town.

Prohawk attempting to drive a wedge between us/mastin is funny though
I also shot mantis a message the other day saying that prohawk's reaction to the tracker claim is bullshit. From his PoV (if he was town), MC is all but confirmed scum, yet he's not fighting and screaming at us to lynch MC.

My point exactly.

I do strongly lean towards MC also being scum, butyeah. Confscum today. Scumhunt for other-scum tomorrow.

All-in-all? This seems to be the exact same ProHawk from Tales of Vesperia. Him being given as a free scum lynch in mylo included.

[mastin2]

Awkwardly enough, it turns out the line of communication was faulty. My grandmother's apparently fine, but I'm on my guard just in case.

Does anyone else see why its nearly indistinguishable to tell the difference of scum between Mastin and Shrimp, or is it just me?

Maybe that's because we share the same alignment and thus, distinguishing between us is going to be hard.

Look at you sucking up to Nero, Tell me Messiah, what kinda tricks do you think you have up your sleeve to win this thing? You are DEAD after I flip.

The thing about this is, if MC were actually scum and you actually town, the only possible reason he'd have to claim this is if the game would be won after your lynch.
That you're INSISTING that the game will continue after your "mis"lynch is yet more proof that you're scum. Either MC's town (and thus, you scum), or MC's scum-making-winning-game-play. The thought that MC would be scum-making-play-not-winning-game simply doesn't come from town.

@Mastin - what about your role was a counter to my role?

There isn't anything from the roleclaims themselves. Busdriver/Cop/Vig have no overlap with JK. If there's anything about your role that's a counter to mine, it'd have to be in flavor, but I'm not an expert on that, so I wouldn't know. I've never pushed the idea that your role is a counter to mine.

though she does seem to have forgotten that she suspected me in her most recent comments. That or her read changed...and I don't think the gamestate changed at all betwixt and between, so it's an odd shift.

What game are you reading where the gamestate didn't change?
What changed is that MC claimed an incriminating result on ProHawk. That itself wouldn't clear you. ProHawk's reaction to the result REEKS of being a scumslip about your alignment being town. MC said he saw ProHawk visit you. ProHawk reacted that he didn't visit the scum's nightkill. That smells of being him having slipped that he targeted you for a poison kill...which would necessitate you being town. You can't GET a larger change in the gamestate than that.

Look at you sucking up to Nero, Tell me Messiah, what kinda tricks do you think you have up your sleeve to win this thing? You are DEAD after I flip.

for example, this looks very much town^

Like hell it is. That's a scumclaim, not a town mindset.

There's a difference between saying something and linking to it. Read ProHawk's posts from here onward. That's him during D2. Then look at his posting on D3. THIS IS IMPORTANT. An important piece of the game is that orcinus softclaimed on D2 to have a role countering ProHawk. Orcinus was ProHawk's scumbuddy. They organized a bus. And this post is a dead-ringer for the post you're towntelling him for.
Look here and here for the setup from orc's end.

It's the same thing this game. ProHawk is scum. MC's probably scum, yes. But ProHawk? DEFINITELY is.

because it looks like he doesn't have any fight in him. (on MC's part)

GUESS WHAT NOT HAVING ANY FIGHT IN THEM IS A SIGN OF. It's not a sign that ProHawk's town. It's a sign that he is scum.

[mastin2]

ProHawk's reaction to the result REEKS of being a scumslip about your alignment being town. MC said he saw ProHawk visit you. ProHawk reacted that he didn't visit the scum's nightkill

Wouldn't that point to prohawk NOT being mafia though?

Whut. No, it's explicitly a scumslip. He reacted as if Squirrel Girl was the nightkill of the mafia. Neither of which are proven facts. (Edit: Nevermind. Just checked. He didn't ever explicitly say mafia nightkill. He did imply, though.)

Holders of your slot did sell that though. Any theories on why they were goofy?

Fairly certain Titus didn't? She's one of the isoes I've skimmed, and I saw her doubting the claim for the same reasons I did, a combo of flavor and thinking your role doesn't fit into the setup.

Wait, so your theory is that MC is probably scum and is bussing his buddy...?

Yes. However, if given the choice between lynching probable-scum (MC) and confirmed scum (ProHawk), I'm lynching the confirmed scum. To think of it in another way? You don't lynch the cop-with-a-guilty first; you lynch the guilty first, and then analyze the cop's alignment after that. (In this case, tracker.) MC is most likely scum. He is not confirmed scum, and thus, lynching him is too large a risk. ProHawk IS confirmed scum, and thus, is the risk-free lynch. We can analyze MC's alignment after we have ProHawk dead. It's really that simple.

I also don't like how Mastin is ignoring the VT count in the game. I think that is one of the best cases for ProHawk town presented, and Mastin has him as super scum, but hasn't addressed that point.

Because I saw it as such a useless point to address that I didn't bother? I saw it, and discarded it. I didn't ignore it. VT count in a mini normal is a fine point. Theme games by their very nature are more PR-heavy, and I can see that especially being true if the scumteam's relatively stacked. Having "only" four VTs is not at all imbalanced. It's not what I'd do as a setup designer. (I'm not fond of role madness, because my experience with role madness has been a 100% town winrate--well, until Tales just ended, but even then that game was close.) But bluntly? I expect it of other setup designers. A theme game which has the same PR ration as a mini normal is the rare exception to the general rule, a pleasant surprise I love to run into. Not the norm.

ya but, how come you are not questioning or evaluating MC at all?

Again: questions come tomorrow, not today. We have confscum from ProHawk. Figuring out if MC's scum (likely, yes) comes tomorrow. Not today. I guess I could question him a bit. I am evaluating him, if you haven't noticed. But I'm never lynching him before I'm lynching ProHawk.

from my pov (town) i'm a little torn cause, i was thinking along with NS that prohawk was scum. but his latest posts have me reconsidering. how can you be so sure?

Experience!

Read the damn links. This is ProHawk's scumgame. He scumslipped this game; that's the only difference. Tell me what he posted seemed legitimate, and didn't seem like a scumslip. It doesn't. He slipped. He's scum. His posts are faked and manufactured.

also from my pov, squirrel and nero are town. that only leaves - you, MC and prohawk.

Same back at you. And know everything you're saying about me and MC? Applies in reverse for ProHawk. The reason MC isn't 100% scum-with-ProHawk is specifically because you're now defending ProHawk just when a lynch on him seemed to be realistically possible. Do you see that?

why would scum bus now at this point?

For the towncred. It worked in Tales. Orc won the game after bussing ProHawk with a counterclaim. This game, two players largely suspected would pull the same stunt. And then, BAM! One becomes conftown, and can lynch town in the resulting mylo/lylo for the win. I JUST saw it happen, Mantis. I KNOW it's something ProHawk can think of, and I also KNOW that it's the kind of plan a scum-Desp would support. This isn't some reckless move likely to backfire. This is a move that's low-risk (they're already the most suspected), and INCREDIBLY high reward.

[mastin2]

Would you like to expand on those - since I don't think you have other than to say you think my role does exist but you don't think it's exactly a town role...which indicates you did believe the role could exist in this setup as long as it had a different alignment, which makes this commentary seem pretty wonky and false.

I'll try, but yes, I did believe the role could exist with a scum alignment and obviously with scum having flavor. Nothing I said says otherwise. I have zero doubts: regardless of your alignment, your claim is at least 90% true. As town it's obviously 100% true. As scum, the 10% not-true comes from the fakeclaim flavor and obviously switching some abilities for others. (E.g. cop-->rolecop.) I previously believed it was scum, that it didn't fit in very well as a town role, and that the flavor vaguely said it was also scum. Now, I'm thinking I was wrong about that, that it could be town and thus would fit. I don't see how that's hard to understand.

Read this explanation here, and then notice that mastin has been arguing about how the only way MC would do this as scum was if it was a scum winning manuver, and then recognize how this doesn't make sense if Mastin thinks MC is scum. I am so right about her!

Read my posts again:
I said that

from ProHawk's position

, the only possibility is that MC would do it as a winning scum-maneuver (or as town with ProHawk as scum, of course, but that requires him to be scum). The thought of scum-making-a-not-game-winning-maneuver would never occur to a town-him.
From

my

position, the only possibilities are that MC is town and has a guilty, or that MC is scum faking a guilty on his scumbuddy for the towncred. I've made this quite explicit. The reason I'm not voting MC is the possibility (albeit not probability) of the former scenario. In either case, ProHawk is scum.

ProHawk is scum for a multitude of reasons, too. There's the claim from MC. There's his play being a dead-ringer for Tales. There's also my preliminary analysis of the deceased which points that way. And then there's his scumslip. Any one of these by itself would be strong; together, they confirm him as scum, 100%. Like...MC's 90-95% likely to be scum. ProHawk is 100% scum.

[mastin2]

So, ProHawk.
I'm out of touch with reality.
I'm tired. Frustrated. Apathetic. Lazy. Bored.

So if you're town, treat me as town for a bit. You've got one post. Make a case, a solid case, for why it'd be MC and shrimp as the scumteam, and why you're not scum yourself. You're not going to convince me I'm scum. You're not going to convince me Nero's scum. So don't bother--I don't care if that's what you've been pushing. Play ball with me. I like your response? Then I give you time. I put in the effort to check things. I double-triple-check my findings, do my research. I analyze. I make use of the time we have, to see what you've said, if it has merit, and consider the MC-shrimp scumteam.

I don't like your response? I don't risk waiting until a few hours before deadline to vote. You said it yourself, we can't no-lynch. I risk it all on you being scum. I'm wrong, I'll take full responsibility. Because right now, I don't see myself voting anyone other than you. I realize that this is asking a bit, so I'll give you plenty of time. Three days, to make the most convincing argument you can. I'm not blind enough to not listen. But I am sick enough to be reckless. Because you? You really look like scum. Your posting today. Your posting yesterday. Your scumslip. Your interactions with MC. The meta I have on you. Everything points squarely at you being scum.

[mastin2]

I like the reach out Mastin. Expect my self-defense/case post maybe later tonight, or tomorrow sometime.

Alright, will be looking forward to it. (Free ammo, 2081/2082.)

[mastin2]

Mastin, what do you think of the VT count?

Said it yesterday:

Because I saw it as such a useless point to address that I didn't bother? I saw it, and discarded it. I didn't ignore it. VT count in a mini normal is a fine point. Theme games by their very nature are more PR-heavy, and I can see that especially being true if the scumteam's relatively stacked. Having "only" four VTs is not at all imbalanced. It's not what I'd do as a setup designer. (I'm not fond of role madness, because my experience with role madness has been a 100% town winrate--well, until Tales just ended, but even then that game was close.) But bluntly? I expect it of other setup designers. A theme game which has the same PR ration as a mini normal is the rare exception to the general rule, a pleasant surprise I love to run into. Not the norm.

Of course, at this stage, Nero, there's basically a requirement for there to be a maximum of four. Shrimp could be scum, ProHawk could be scum, both could be scum, but both can't be town.

maybe it's nero and MC.
i could see that, with nero's back and forth on prohawk. as in, he's trying to play the neutral scum.

Aaaaand, shrimp attacks conftown. And doesn't vote MC. (More free ammo, ProHawk. Still waiting, by the way.)

[mastin2]

I have pondered long and hard on what I could say to you to get you to change your mind. Read through your posts, trying to get a handle on your perspective. At one point you had said that Squirrel and I absolutely had to be scum-scum, not town-town, nor even scum-town. I am hoping Squirrel flipping town has spurred your re-evaluation.

As for analysis, you are completely sold on this idea of me being scum because of my scum-play in Tales of Vesperia. I am telling you, my play there and here is EXTREMELY different. Consider the following:
Did I slip/scum-slip in Tales? Compare my posts there and here. You should notice my posts as scum are more calculated, they are read over multiple times, I have a plan and try hard to make error-free-posts. Look at my posts here. I am working on trying to figure things out, but am not worried about hitting the submit button before figuring things out. What you feel like are fake and manufactured are actually genuine. I forgot we had started in the night phase later in the game commenting on poisoning details despite having started out the game stating that exact fact. I completely screwed up in calculating mylo/lylo situations. My confusion/indecision/flippidy floppity stems from an absence of knowledge, not an abundance of it.

I screwed up confusing SG with SP. I thought MC claimed that I visited SP. You somehow think it meant I slipped up. What you are completely forgetting is the fact that scum will have planned this gambit in advance. They would have discussed "Oh hey tomorrow we are probably going to mass-claim. Here is what I am mass-claiming be ready to do X, Y, and/or Z". I would have known who MC was going to claim I would be visiting.

Me making mistakes is genuine. Me correcting my posts before they go out is manufactured. I am not going to take pot-shots at the scum-team until you answer one question for me:
Did you or did you not realize the last game-day was MYLO?

Not at all impressed with this post. I asked for a case on why you're town, not a defense against my points specifically on why you're scum. It's filled to the brim with manipulation and hypocrisy. It's basically deflecting rather than answering my concerns.

also prohawk i think mastin wants you to make a case on why we're scum, so that she has an excuse to lay down suspicion in our direction

Oh, I have PLENTY of reason to have suspicion on you. I don't need an excuse. If ProHawk's posting today has been bad, yours has been abysmal. ProHawk's posting looks scummy; yours flat-out just looks like scum. Basically every post I reference as being "free ammo" for ProHawk's (now-revealed-to-be-nonexistent) argument? Are basically posts that trip my scumdar and trip it HARD.

Bluntly, know one of the reasons I'm not voting ProHawk right now?

Is because of how scummy YOU are being, in just about every post you make.

I realize the implausibility of it, but I'm really, REALLY considering a you-ProHawk team specifically because of your attitude. Interactions fit, and you two are certainly the two individually-most-scummy players right now. Your thoughts make no sense, and seem highly opportunistic. Your stances convenient. As they have been through the majority of the game.

why isn't she questioning MC?

Same reason I haven't been questioning you: because you? Aren't my focus. (Or haven't been. Thinking I need to direct more attention onto you.) ProHawk has been. Bluntly, he's the player I most need a read on. More than any other player, I feel he holds the key to the game. Him-town, him-scum. That I need sorted. And if him-scum, who his scumbuddy would be.

mastin, why are you not working that out?

And yet you assume I haven't been. All my posting today has been oriented around this, loosely put. I can build a case for MC being scum or MC town. I can build a case for you being scum easily but also a case for you being town. I have built a case for ProHawk being scum, but am not blind to the point where I'm ignoring the case for him potentially being town. I'm working

everything

out.

But bluntly...you're not. You've already concluded that it's MC and me. You're not asking questions of MC, either. You're not asking questions of ProHawk, either. You're not being cautious. You're not analyzing. You're not considering all the possibilities like I am. And that? That is why I'm increasingly concerned about you being scum. ESPECIALLY considering how you've held that townread on me. Both slots, for different reasons from different heads. Yet when push comes to shove, in lylo, you've discarded that. In favor of a scumread. Not because of any tangible reason. But because it's convenient for you to have it.

[mastin2]

tl;dr version:
scienceshrimp is being highly hypocritical by accusing me of not working things out, of not asking questions, when they have done exactly that, only much much worse.

[mastin2]

My worst nightmare come true. Re-analyzing evidence.

Mastin I would still like an answer to my question.

Yep. Same spot.

Realized I did owe you an answer to the question as I thought about things today. Yes, I did think that two days ago was mylo. However, my brain was thoroughly shut off at the time. I saw, "Oh, guilty." Which by itself would not have been blindly sheeped, if not for the "oh, scumslip" following it. Both of which I re-evaluated yesterday, when I thought that I really wasn't thinking. So while I did think it was mylo...I didn't, y'know...

think

it was mylo. I wasn't treating it as a mylo. I was treating it the same as any other day, in which you lynch the guilty first.

Butyeah. Right now, I need to give the game a runthrough, to figure out if it

was

scum bussing or scum-making-gamewinning-ploy. And probably prepare defense, too, considering that there's just as much about me being scum as there would be for both of you. I'm asking the mod about paraphrasing the neighborhood QT now. (It's, sadly, been fairly empty. Nero's not exactly the best at using his neighborhood with me, and regrettably it's largely been vice-versa, too.)

I got the strong vibe here that the town player doesn't want to risk being wrong by making the first move and that the scum player isn't willing to put all their cards in one basket and commit to one mislynch, either. Soyeah, I need to actually give that effort. (Tomorrow. It's nearly 4 am; I kinda need to get sleep.)

Here to bring you a reason I'm paranoid of Mastin
I have not been obvtown this game
I've been checked out most of it in fact
But I don't see a questioning of it.

Do have a slight lean this way, though. (Like...51.5/48.5.) Because I

have

been questioning them. The best element of their play was when I entered into the game and they tried to get me to sheep them; their play has gotten much, much worse progressively throughout the game.

i was actually getting paranoid before that it was MC and nero.
now that nero is dead and confirmed town, this makes its a lot easier.
no way prohawk is scum after MC's fake guilty on him.

so that's why ph, i'm telling you to ask me anything. i can build a case on mastin if ya want. i'd rather not, due to laziness.
but, after all the town mess ups, it'd be nice to still get a win.

I really, really suck at explaining. (Especially when sleep-deprived.) But, well, simply put...this is a really, really scumdriven post. Like...I can see it coming from town, maybe, but...it really looks like scum faking things rather than being genuine about them. And that's my vibe of scienceshrimp throughout the majority of the game, too.

Heck, that was ProHawk's main defense. (It'll probably be one of my main points of defense, too.) That genuineness, even if it's genuinely wrong, was a large part of his defense against my attacks, that he makes mistakes as town and doesn't think things through, whereas as scum he's artificial and more calculated. (Okay, so I'm writing more of me into his defense than I should be, but still.) scienceshrimp...hasn't seemed genuine. I seem to recall that artificial posting was a main point against MC; I'm thinking it also applied to the other scum, and scienceshrimp fits that profile more than ProHawk.

But I dunno. I need time to think.

[mastin2]

Mastin, do you have any theories? Why aren't you voting at this point?

Oh, I have plenty of theories. That's the problem. Voting requires me to know who the scum between you is. I don't. I'm trying to figure it out, but the main thing hindering me is that part of my process is going to be sharing with you my full experience on the game, which includes the QT, but I'm still waiting on mod approval to paraphrase it. (For different reasons, it's comparable in length to the Tales QT pre-spam, which I haven't done because the QT is technically night-only and I haven't asked the mod if I can dump notes in there. Butyeah, waiting on the mod to answer what I can or can't say about it, basically so I know how detailed I can get in my paraphrase.)

Basically, my plan is to paraphrase the QT, show what thoughts go along with the QT, explain where I'm coming from, what I'm seeing, a brief pro/con for each of you two, and my overall current thoughts without double-checking. And then to do the double-check. The absolute essential tl;dr version is that, basically, I'm at something like 55/45, with the lean being towards scienceshrimp, especially given their overall vibe to posting. But while gun to my head, push come to shove, that's enough for a vote, I'd prefer at least 60/40. (Honestly, I don't think I'd ever get more than 75. Heck, more than 65 would be cause for concern that I'm confbiasing, which would cause me to start over again simply 'cause confbias analysis is worthless and I'd need to find where I went biased.)

[mastin2]

I am pretty sure I have scum nailed down, would you like me to wait before I place my vote?

Heck no. You gonna vote me? If town, loss is on you and if scum, we 1v1, reducing my workload. You vote science shrimp, then it reduces my workload. Either way, I'd be thrilled to get this over with so that I don't have to bother with it.

'Course it's fairly obvious you're planning on voting me anyway. You wouldn't be asking otherwise. And I can also tell from your wording that there's nothing I could possibly say that'd stop you from voting. (Seriously, I don't know why people bother to ask the question. I ALWAYS can tell who they're planning on voting for anyway. Town, scum, doesn't matter; people can't hide their intentions nearly as well as they think they can.)

[mastin2]

I'm here, confirming I'm not hammering.

[mastin2]

So right now:

My thoughts are mainly that if ProHawk was scum, he could have hammered me when scienceshrimp voted me.

Yes.
Those moments may be times he wasn't around.
But scienceshrimp admitted it themselves, that he's been around. Taking their own word for it is in fact the very piece of incriminating evidence against them. Thus, ProHawk is almost certainly not scum.

Then there's the reaction. A scum player doesn't want to enter into a 1v1. scienceshrimp wanted ProHawk to unvote to avoid that. ProHawk even pointed this out as evidence against scienceshrimp, when scienceshrimp didn't vote for me.

I'll run by the math again, but this looks really, really strong.

[mastin2]

I'm running through the scenarios.

I can't remember why ProHawk was as strongly scum as he was.
I can't remember why scienceshrimp was as strongly town as they were.
I can see the scum in scienceshrimp's posting from their mylo game onwards.
It's much harder to see the alternative.

So I'm sorry if I'm screwing this up.
I'm sorry if this isn't the right call.
But it's one I have to make.

VOTE: scienceshrimp.

[mastin2]

I hope you weren't trolling us.

For the record: I never troll. I take

precautions

.

Neighbor QT.
Mafia QT.

[mastin2]

No lynching not once, but, what? Three times? Means that the town effectively mislynched a second time, thanks to the scum nightkills replacing the lost town kills.

[mastin2]

What should I have done different to get more people to listen to me? Was I not confident enough sounding?

Quite the opposite problem, in fact.

Your 'confidence' read as (because it was) arrogance. And while that type of charm may work on certain players, in here, all it did was invalidate any legitimate point you could have been making. Because by being so sure about it, you appeared to have basically nothing. Your tell on me, for instance, is something that was easily proven to be BS. I meant that when I said it, that the only reason I didn't counter it wasn't because I couldn't, but because I felt too lazy TO counter it.

That's not to say there aren't legitimate things you could have focused on. As town being misread as scum for bad reasoning, I will have a freak-out, where I try to figure out what's going on. As scum being read correctly as scum for bad reasoning, I will rant about why that reasoning is bad, and either paint the person using it as scum (like I did) or as wrong-town. The two might superficially have similarities, but are quite transparent after a more in-depth look.

If you had pushed something akin to that, I wouldn't have been able to fight back effectively. Because that is an instinctive response that I can't help but doing as scum. But since you pushed me for things that were alignment-null (or even potentially towntells of mine), you gained no support since...it was for things that were alignment-null, and you thinking they were alignment-indicative made your posting arrogant.

Random thought--I'm beginning to suspect that Squirrel Girl is an alt of Jake from State Farm.

Both claim to be good at reading me, but use bad reasoning to do so,
I seem to recall one of them referencing a game the other was in,
Both have a similar sense of humor,
And both have similar posting styles...
...Including both of them kinda being pricks.



Butyeah. I didn't read the whole game, so I'm not going to give feedback to everyone, but I want to give more extensive feedback to the players who were here during my time in the town.