Mini 886 - Popcorn Mafia - Game over!

[Xylthixlm]

I mean I don't have the luxury of being this boat-rocking usually

You don't have the luxury of being this boat-rocking here.

[Xylthixlm]

Your play is anti-town for exactly the same reason it would be anti-town if you did it in any other game. You obviously understand that you shouldn't play like that in a normal game, so why are you playing differently here?

[Slicey]

ort what do you think of Sarag?

[Yosarian2]

do your research please, Bogre always acts like this;

Ok, how so?

[Yosarian2]

Xyl, explain exactly why my play is anti-town.

It's not so much of "is your play anti-town". My question is "is Bogre a pro-town person who's actually scumhunting, or is he a scum faking scumhunting with bad logic, deliberate misrepresentations, and fake scumtells." And that's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

I personally find it odd that, after asking me the question, you never responded to my post 64 where I explained why I think you are misrepresenting rite, and instead just kept declaring rite to be scum without even commenting on it.

[DragonsofSummer]

Here is the problem Ort.

I was asked to answer that question.

Try reading the thread before you jump to conclusions. Vala asked me whether I would, so I answered her question.

As for your second point, saying me putting we in my statement is scummy, thats grasping at straws and ludicrous.

[Yosarian2]

In a few hours, I'll be going away for thanksgiving weekend. Might not have much or any internet access until monday.

[Bogre]

@Yos.

It's not that he's saying the town is hurt by a townie being shot. I mean, that's pretty simple to know.

It's the other things he's focusing on, and the way he's presenting his argument.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos.

It's not that he's saying the town is hurt by a townie being shot. I mean, that's pretty simple to know.

It's the other things he's focusing on, and the way he's presenting his argument.

Huh? What other thing is he foucsing on?

I think Bogre's line of thinking is that if you're shot, and you're town, you don't die, so there's nothing to be afraid of.

I'm not sure I agree; or, more clearly, I think I might be on Xyl's side on this one. Even though it might be more fun to play in a game until the end, a town win is a town win, and your priority should be ensuring the win of the town, not your personal survival.

You said a town shouldn't be afraid of getting shot because he won't die. He explained your argument, clearly showing that he understands what you were saying, and then says he dosn't agree that town shouldn't be afraid of getting shot, because the personal survival thing dosn't matter, what matters is winning, and getting shot hurts that.

What, exactly, was this "other thing" you think he was focusing on? What's wrong with the way he put that, exactly?

[Bogre]

He was focusing on personal survival. He thought my entire answer was based off wanting to survive myself, which isn't true. He pretty much said what everyone knows and nothing else except fluff and scumslips.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Your math is wrong, Drake; it's 6/11. Unless you're suggesting I would shoot myself.

The question directed at Bogre was a no-win question, yes. And, I probably would have gotten better results by picking someone who I knew had been around the block to ask. I am taking all of that into account for when I make my decision. Bogre's claim that his answer was "formulated to gauge reactions" seems coached to me, but then, I've done a similar backtracking maneuver as town before. Difference is, I have a crystal clear meta most of the time and before the end of the day, I was "obvtown" again. <_< Bogre quite obviously does not have this advantage, because regardless of his alignment his play is not pro-town.

[quote="Bogre]a) Created a large distraction?
b) Obscured the real point of the game?[/quote]

Actually, at this point, yes, because it's all anyone wants to talk about. That's not necessarily your fault but if you don't want to get shot you need to get your act together fast. (No guarantees either way though, obviously. I'm keeping my cards fairly close to my chest still.)

I do have a few suspects up my sleeve, but nothing I feel like sharing right now.

Hope everyone is having a good Thanksgiving.

[Vala Mal Doran]

fail fail fail

a) Created a large distraction?
b) Obscured the real point of the game?

fix'd

[Sarag]

Ok, I'm going to be a bit less active over the weekend. I don't have heaps of time now, so I'll just use this post to make a defense of the Bogre scum-buddy accusations that have been leveled at me.

Sarag is a possible scumbuddy because:
- coaching in 67. Trying to help Bogre answer the question and redeem himself.

Firstly, the accusation of coaching is ridiculous. I can see how you might think that if you read 67 in isolation, but I was actually just answering the question he asked me - of what a better answer would be. Here is the relevant context:
- I called him out on his poor answer to Vala's question (35).
- When he wriggled and tried to avoid it, I pushed harder (38, 48, 57).
- I didn't ease up until he

finally

gave a slightly better answer in 62 (underlined):

I am curious as to what a better answer of that would be, Sarag.

Obviously she will see that I am scumhunting (and actually have found one)

. Why shouldn't she shoot you?

At which point I acknowledged his response was closer to what I was after. I didn't think pushing further on that particular issue was likely to bear any more fruit, so I backed off a little. I then

answered his question

of what I thought a better answer would be, and why Vala shouldn't shoot me (quoted above, not underlined). If it was scum-buddy coaching, it was pretty terrible - push hard and wait for the damage to be done,

then

coach? I don't think so. I very much feel he was beyond redemption at this point.

---

- Attacking Bogre's backtracking, and then saying it's ok in Post 71.

Ok this, I think, is a simple misunderstanding. Here is my post 71:

Bogre, my first reaction to that post is: Holy backtracking, Batman!!

I think it's more likely that you just didn't know how to answer.

But, ok, you did it to spark discussion. If you say so.

The underlined bit is sarcasm. I don't actually think it's ok.


I'm still not sure how I feel about Bogre. He has continued to keep digging himself further into a hole, but his bull-headed play remains consistent with poor town. In my experience, townies act like this more than scum do, but there are obvious problems with relying on that.

The case that DraketheFake has mounted against me feels very much like clutching at straws, and like opportunistic bandwagoning (metaphorically of course, since there are no votes - but he followed a few others' accusations that felt more genuine to me). At the risk of being accused of OMGUS, small

FoS: DraketheFake

. If anyone actually cares, I will defend but I'd rather not waste everyone's time.

[DraketheFake]

My math is fine, Val, since there are 12 players in this game. Excluding yourself, then, there are 11 players, 7 of which are townies.

@Sarag: That's a pretty jumpy response. Caught with your hand in the cookie jar? You're "not going to waste everyone's time" by defending yourself? Is that because you figure people will ignore what you've just said in favor of continuing to harp on Bogre? Because you saw what happened when Bogre tried to defend himself? Your decision here is a very strange one by a player who came under mild suspicion at best.

[Sarag]

On the contrary, I'm a little concerned that there is too much focus on Bogre, despite my hand in it. I think it's a real risk that lurker scum could be kicking back, enjoying the show at this point. Bogre has had this much bad attention because he wasn't very good at defending himself. I'm clearly not reluctant to defend myself from attacks that have actual substance - see the majority of my last post.

[Bogre]

FOS Sarag

Only scum play soft.

You were really concerned with me, then backed off.

Rite and Sarag are good targets.

Also, you guys are whack if you think my play is anti-town. You have -never- seen anyone hardline someone to see how they respond until pressure, or if they buckle? It is a fairly effective scumhunting tactic, IMO.

[Xylthixlm]

^ still scum

[Yosarian2]

He was focusing on personal survival. He thought my entire answer was based off wanting to survive myself, which isn't true.

But your whole comment that "town shouldn't be afraid of getting shot because they won't die" is ENTIERLY based on a focus on personal survival. That's the only way your comment makes sense, is if the person who is "not afraid" is not afraid because they, personally, would survive being shot, even though it hurts the town. He was entierly correct in saying that your comment is about personal survival instead of the good of the town.

[Xylthixlm]

Scum: Bogre, Sarag, ortolan, DraketheFake

[Sarag]

Only scum play soft.

Wrong.

[rite]

For what it's worth, at this point, Bogre's my number one choice for a target, ortolan my second.

rite has the consistent defensive and self-explanatory tone which I associate with newb-scum.

[snip]

Town players don't want to give information like this so that they can be evaluated "fairly", they want to convince others that they're town. It looks like he is going out of his way to appear "honest" rather than acting how a townie actually would- trying to convince people that they're town.

Maybe the meta of the site has just changed since I've played here, but I stridently disagree that you can tell townies are townies because they want to convince others they're town. Scum don't want to be evaluated "fairly," they want to convince others they're town.

Also, you first say you associate newb scum with being "defensive," then say you associate them with giving out information so they can be "evaulated 'fairly'". I don't understand; these two appear to be at odds.

Your attacking of DoS for answering a question represents either a fundamental misreading of the game, or an eagerness to attack SOMEONE that is often displayed by scum.

[Slicey]

Scum: Bogre, Sarag, ortolan, DraketheFake

Almost agree. I don't think ort is scum, at least not yet.

[Xylthixlm]

Town players don't want to give information like this so that they can be evaluated "fairly", they want to convince others that they're town. It looks like he is going out of his way to appear "honest" rather than acting how a townie actually would- trying to convince people that they're town.

This townie wants to be evaluated "fairly" and is perfectly happy to offer information that makes himself look scummy if it happens to be true.

[Vala Mal Doran]

My math is fine, Val, since there are 12 players in this game. Excluding yourself, then, there are 11 players, 7 of which are townies.

Oh. Oops.

[Vaya]

Responding to prod.

Sorry that I've been neglecting this game thus far, I will hopefully get to this tomorrow.