Mini 1597: Runecast Mafia - Day 5

[d3x]

/le sigh...

[LynxKuroneko]

Role PM for Ability Cop - Each night, you can choose a player to investigate. You will learn an ability the player has. For example, if the player is a doctor, your result will be “protective”. If the player is a weak doctor, you will learn one randomly selected ability (either protective or investigative).

I was trying not to quote it or anything. Not my fault if you didn't understand. The fact that you really thought Ansuz could be town, regardless, is scary. And I didn't disagree with the redirection - agreeing that there was one wouldn't and didn't get us closer to finding scum. Ah, well. Next time, right?

[Thor665]

If the player is a weak doctor, you will learn one randomly selected ability (either protective or investigative).

I have to admit, seeing this, I loathe the way you attempted to convey the info to others.

[Thor665]

The fact that you really thought Ansuz could be town, regardless,

[Thor665]

I was trying not to quote it or anything. Not my fault if you didn't understand.

And let me also say.
YES.
That is exactly your fault.

[LynxKuroneko]

Right. Don't blame me for being wrong about the last scum. Reread everything if you care to.

I enjoyed the game, mod lady. And good game to everyone. Sorry for letting my noob spill all over; I'll do my best to get better!



p.edit - Get over yourself. You pushed one theory - and kept on at it even when it wasn't disputed, and even though it still wasn't getting us closer to finding last scum. Whatever you weren't understanding wouldn't have impacted the result because you practically conf-towned Ansuz several times, regardless of what I was saying.

[fferyllt]

When I'm at my laptop I'll link all the private threads including the mod notes.

Thor, it may be that some of my decisions as a designer and mod were not mainstream ms, but they made sense to me and they were all things I've seen before at MS. I learned to play mafia, design games and to mod on other sites. I've acclimated to site meta, but I still get occasional surprises.

[T-Bone]

The decision to not use NAR was the one thing I disagree with. The roles and set-up were fine otherwise.

[Thor665]

Get over yourself. You pushed one theory - and kept on at it even when it wasn't disputed, and even though it still wasn't getting us closer to finding last scum. Whatever you weren't understanding wouldn't have impacted the result because you practically conf-towned Ansuz several times, regardless of what I was saying.

When someone doesn't understand your role (as you claim to have fully understood your role) it is your job to explain the role again.
You didn't even try.
Maybe I would have ignored you, but you should have tried to explain the role more than once when I "misunderstood" you.

@ffrey- I blame bad roleclaim at this point.
I actually don't have an issue with the NAR thing because it was possible for town to figure that out. Frankly, I don't have an issue with the weird ability cop as, if it had been claimed it would have changed value calls being made.
I think the setup was scumsided - but, hell, almost no setups are well balanced in theme games so that's not an issue for me.

[T-Bone]

Town *could* have figured it out, but I think ffery should have been upfront about it (in her ruleset, for example). That is the one thing that changed the outcome of this game, and it was due to Mod influence, not player influence, and that's what makes it bad. While NAR isn't mandated, it is the most commonly used method of resolving night actions and might as well be site default. Not once did I consider that NAR wasn't being used, nor did anyone really (since no one asked), cause no one had the thought or inclination to think something different was going on. Mod choices and Mod influence heavily affected the outcome of this game.

[fferyllt]

Scum redirector is a really powerful role. I had initially planned to make it a one-shot, but my reviewer felt that the scum team was underpowered compared to town and recommended that if I used a scum redirector I not nerf it.

But, I think Ansuz' fake claim was a game changer. I built some role redundancy into town in part to balance the possible number of early kills, and to fuel a little paranoia among the paranoia prone. When Ansuz counterclaimed the town vig, the redundancy may have played in their favor. It seemed like especially in the latter days of the game, set-up spec trumped scumhunting.

The other suggestion given to me about the setup was the conditional post restriction role. I had the slot penciled in to be something really over the top, and I think that role did fit the bill.

[fferyllt]

Town *could* have figured it out, but I think ffery should have been upfront about it (in her ruleset, for example). That is the one thing that changed the outcome of this game, and it was due to Mod influence, not player influence, and that's what makes it bad. While NAR isn't mandated, it is the most commonly used method of resolving night actions and might as well be site default. Not once did I consider that NAR wasn't being used, nor did anyone really (since no one asked), cause no one had the thought or inclination to think something different was going on. Mod choices and Mod influence heavily affected the outcome of this game.

I will probably do this in future games if I don't use NAR. I've played quite a few theme games here that didn't follow NAR so I don't assume it. But, I'm unhappy that not making it explicit may have impacted the outcome.

[LynxKuroneko]

Role PM for Ability Cop - Each night, you can choose a player to investigate. You will learn an ability the player has. For example, if the player is a doctor, your result will be “protective”. If the player is a weak doctor, you will learn one randomly selected ability (either protective or investigative).

My words:

1704: I literally get one word summing up their ability. Ansuz was 'killing' and Konowa was 'vote altering'. (This wasn't a very good summary, I can admit that.)

1771: And I only get *one* result (hence the one-word statement) on someone, regardless of their abilities.

1776: my ability *does* return pretty much one-word ("killing" for you, "vote altering" for konowa) reports. If the target has a 'watered-down' role (as several of us do from what I've seen), I'll get one result.

1781: If the target has a 'watered-down' role (as several of us do from what I've seen), I'll get one result.

1789: I do not get a 'primary' result, like I've explained.

- - - - -

And you didn't understand?

[Kthxbye]

/le sigh...

This.

Love that my PR was completely negated...yay.

[LynxKuroneko]

Am I wrong guys? Or is Thor just salty?

[d3x]

Here's the Neighborhood QT. I thought Ansuz and Kthx may be Scum together early on, so I was trying to feed him information that, if it manifested in thread, would confirm the two of them as Scum.

@Lynx- You are in the wrong. There are so many easier, more concise ways you could've gone about giving your Role information without getting ModKilled for quoting. It 100% is your fault that Thor didn't understand, because you were being obtuse about it. You could've said... "If a player has more than one ability or utility, I only get a single randomly picked result". You didn't have to spread it out cryptically across 5 posts. And finally, why the hell did you sign up for a nonNormal game as your first outting? I can't seem to escape players that sign up for games where they are clearly out of their depth and should be swimming in the kiddie pool for a few laps. Experience would've told you that a weak Doc isn't watered down, it's a secondary passive ability. Presumably, this was in your RolePM to directly tell you that you only get a single result for a Role that has multiple uses or abilities.

@Kthx- You're not off the hook just because you were redirected. You still didn't target OP.

[LynxKuroneko]

I thought I got that point across, but your words are noted. I didn't say weak doc was watered down, but I think I get the point.

I was excited for my first game, and loved the theme. I was going to sign up for a beginner first. But yeah; shame on me!

[TunnelMates]

I thought you were pretty town by the end of Day 3 and bodyguarded you Night 3 for your Ansuz result...

I made my last reads list putting You in the Town category, and OP in the scum category, because I thought those two were the obvious bodyguard targets to pick from.

[TunnelMates]

I caught up completely before N2 came and chose to bodyguard Kthxbye's hide claim (Burning_Earth) N2. N3, I had a stronger townread on Lynx and thought the ability cop would clear up the Ansuz situation, plus I felt Kthxbye might be bluffing again or not being truthful about the role...that and being convinced OP was scum.

The 1-shot invention was a 1-shot governor or 1-shot self-watcher. I had my message ready to send to give it to Thor N2 knowing that he was claiming that he wouldn't die immediately upon being shot, but decided ensuring the hider didn't die with his target was better. Plus, I didn't trust Thor completely.. Losing potential info from a hider (N2) or the ability cop (N3) wasn't worth the trade off of potentially giving the invention to someone who might die or may be scum (for LYLO usage).

[Untrod Tripod]

Town *could* have figured it out, but I think ffery should have been upfront about it (in her ruleset, for example). That is the one thing that changed the outcome of this game, and it was due to Mod influence, not player influence, and that's what makes it bad. While NAR isn't mandated, it is the most commonly used method of resolving night actions and might as well be site default. Not once did I consider that NAR wasn't being used, nor did anyone really (since no one asked), cause no one had the thought or inclination to think something different was going on. Mod choices and Mod influence heavily affected the outcome of this game.

I will probably do this in future games if I don't use NAR. I've played quite a few theme games here that didn't follow NAR so I don't assume it. But, I'm unhappy that not making it explicit may have impacted the outcome.

In my games, I will change the NAR to fit the setup, but I WILL PUT IT IN THE RULES POST

from a design standpoint though, hider should NEVER be redirectable. EVER.

[TunnelMates]

from a design standpoint though, hider should NEVER be redirectable. EVER.

yeah, I was really surprised to find out Kthxbye hid behind Thor and still died.

This was before knowing how the redirector in this game worked. I was in disbelief that it was Thor if the hide was true.. because I did not suspect him towards the end, and asked Ffery for scum spoilers so I could stop thinking about this game...

[Kthxbye]

@Kthx- You're not off the hook just because you were redirected. You still didn't target OP.

actually, I'm completely off the hood as I'd have cleared Thor and not died at all so get off it. In fact had they NOT had a redirect, I'd have remained alive while they targeted OP thus preventing the entire issue. So yeah, I'm actually waaaaay more correct in my play than you are even close to so...

I = off any fucking hook anyone can come up with.

[fferyllt]

Mod Notes: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=58706

Mafia Thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=58708

Neighborhood Thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=58806

Dead Thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=58807

Spoilered Dead Thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=58806

[d3x]

@ffery- The Spoilered Dead QT is the same as the Neighborhood QT

@Kthx- No. If a Hider reveals him/herself, their job becomes one of transparency so that the Town knows what to do in the event of their death. If Thor was Scum and there was no redirect, we would've done the same thing. It's the wrong play. Period.

[d3x]

It's like High School Math. You only get 1/2 credit for the right answer if your work is wrong. If your gambit had worked, it would still be the wrong play, even if we'd have won.