Genesis Mafia - Game Over!

[vezokpiraka]

Vi you played horrible this game. I wasn't the only one thinkig you were scum. Also saying I'm dumb because I scumread you as town when you did the same fucking thing. Also outing zik was just horrible. I never expected you to steep so low.

@the scum team: great game guys. Lld is always amazing as scum.

@the town: we were pretty bad. Sorry for day 1, but you should have listened to sonic.

[Vampirate]

Instead of trash talking others why don't people give positive criticism.

[vezokpiraka]

Instead of trash talking others why don't people give positive criticism.

Positive criticism to Vi? Like he would ever listen.

[Vi]

Positive criticism to Vi? Like he would ever listen.

Might as well try.

[singersigner]

Vi I don't know that you've answered this and now that the game is over perhaps you'll humor us...why did you do it? What purpose did it serve? Why risk your status as a player, let alone as a mod, just to even the playing field?

[Vi]

Vi I don't know that you've answered this and now that the game is over perhaps you'll humor us...why did you do it? What purpose did it serve? Why risk your status as a player, let alone as a mod, just to even the playing field?

It's actually really simple.

Metal Sonic is an epic-tier, hohum-class piece of shit on a personal level. It's even beyond the usual sorts of people we see as moderators, because they at least tend to have been provoked into awfulness. Metal Sonic does it for fun!

Remember this post?

Hey there Vi. I don't remember Zakk giving a suggestion for a Jazz vote.

Oh, Kagami. I've already asked someone who knows more about replacing out as scum what she thinks about that, answer pending.

That was a town-tell. I'm disengaging for now.

Curses!

Fuck you.

Vi had earlier put Jazzmyn in her town-reads. This is not a manner in which someone is supposed to treat a townread.

and fuck you

This is a particularly great paragraph of wisdom that I will certainly learn from and adapt into my games. I don't understand how you can possibly scumread Jazzmyn after this.

and fuck you

I particularly dislike the fact that she tried to weasel a scum motivation out of that translation. Instead of the word "complaining", she calls it "scumplaining" ... why? Through this word, she tried to elicit a negative connotation which suggests a slant that the action comes from "scum" or is "scum-motivated" -- even when the evidence presented does not lead to the conclusion. When questioned further: "Can you explain how the above is "scumplaining"? What is your thought process? There is a logic gap.", and she fails to answer. Simply, her premises are false, leading to a slimey conclusion that she hopes you folks would buy.

I like the part where Vi was flustered and expressed signs of unease when I brought up that SleepyKrew should be replaced.

Knowing that retired SleepyKrew had a tendency to doze off at inopportune timings, and a younger and fresher Master would bring vigor into the town and revive the slot, would always be a situation that scum would object to.

and fuck you SPOILER ALERT, ASSHOLE - I'M NOT RESPONDING TO SCUM OR PEOPLE I CAN'T CONVINCE, SOURCE: A WHOLE BUNCH OF MY POSTS WITH RANMARU

It's also a lot easier for town to be right about who's Town if one is good enough at Mafia.

and fuck you

Vi, if we're right that she's scum, is playing a formidable game.

and fuck you

It's your lucky day, Master: I'm going through your recent posts now!
I'd be interested in seeing what's "terribly wrong" on my end.

This is really simple.

I received a role PM that states that I'm Town.

Your read on me is bullshit. Which, considering the amount of thought you put into it, isn't very surprising.

and fuck you

Now everybody has noted it, I'd like to bring everybody's attention to Vi's hypocrisy when she talks about "blatant condescension and maniuplation"

and fuck you

Vi's tone and intent is to demotivate, discredit, and to attack.

I'm merely just stating neutral facts.

and fuck you

I'm glad we could have this conversation. I'm going out for a moment, and I might continue.

I hope you're attractive Vi, because Master Zik is not just skilled at Mafia...

At this point I've already gone from trying to work with Master Zik's scumread on me (considering I had been thinking he was scum since page 3) to wondering why he's being so obtuse to getting rather frustrated with how he seems to be going out of his way to antagonize me to openly flaming him in a way I've never done

to anyone

before. In Master Zik's position after seeing this post, there were basically two realistic options for going forward.
1) Assert that while you do indeed think that I'm scum, maybe things are getting a bit out of hand, and we should both work on making this civil. (and, ideally, actually do so)
2) ESCALATE THAT SUCKER

YEAAAAAAH

On the bright side, he did try to calm it down afterward, albeit in the most condescending way he could find. And so we wound up here.

With all due respect Miss Vi, you are in no position to judge whether my play is "bad" or "anti-town". Unless you have basis for my reads being wrong or poor, and the only argument you can make for this is my half-wrong push on RedCoyote, you should stop pushing that argument.

I'm already playing a better game than you by not resorting to raw Appeal To Emotion such as this. <shows full quote again>

Thanks for the compliment, but no thanks.

If I was scum, your vote would never be on me for more than 72 hours

You are implying that you are able to catch my scumgame, which, when you have fully internalized that to its core, is unlikely to be the case.

I understand your sentiment, and I thank you for the compliment, but it does not work that way, hon~

But hey, people can say I'm the most arrogant and condescending person in the game, if not the most so they've ever met. That's totally fine and absolutely accurate.

I mean, I had already requested replacement specifically to get away from the toxic environment that he was causing for me (and I've already had a private conversation about how that did not come about). At that time, I hated him without reservation, was thoroughly sick of his attitude, and wanted to do anything in my power to hurt him. He conveniently presented that weak point of how protective he was of his identity (except when he wasn't), and one night I decided to take advantage of it. Leveling the playing field had nothing to do with it. There was no strategic reason. The aggressor was then conflated with the origin, and thus we received another lesson in the perks of being the perfect doormat.

I'm over it. I'm really not that upset or surprised to see posts from Metal Sonic and vezokpiraka or Jazzmyn like what they have been in postgame. I couldn't convince them that my side exists or might have a shred of understandability if I wanted to, so it's not worth trying. They can think I'm an indelibly horrible person if they want (I can already see the responses to this post! "Well I already had a 0% chance of thinking you were a decent person and not at all a disgrace to the moderating team of mafiascum dot net, but after reading this I'm really,

really

certain. I hope you get attacked by a crocodile."), and it'll be mutual, and we'll just not occupy the same space from now on. My life doesn't end with this game and it isn't limited to this site. There are better places for me to be and better people to be around.

[Salamence20]

I knew it all along. Elementary my dear watson

*Smokes pipe*

[Kagami]

Imo, the mod-abuse thing is a bit overblown. MS had already started posting on his main, so the only thing Vi "confirmed" is that MS wasn't posting in a game he doesn't belong in and lying that someone else's alt was his own.

Positive criticism to Vi? Like he would ever listen.

Might as well try.

Alright, clearly there were two major errors on your part:

1. Your two strongest townreads were scum. Your scumreads were town.
2. Your confidence in your reads was far too high.

Your post-game commentary seems to mostly focus on other members of the town being "scummy" in one way or another, and thus deserving of your suspicion. That your two strongest townreads were scum suggests that the issue is primarily on your end, however. Clearly your model of "scumminess" needs to be heavily re-evaluated.

The inaccuracy of your model is compounded by your overconfidence. You made it essentially impossible to lynch the two scum players, making it 100% safe for them to give town the double-lynch. It also lead you to disregard the more accurate reads of your fellow town. I think part of the issue here is that you view "neutralness" as scummy and thus avoid it unnaturally.

As a specific criticism of your model, you seem to value "tone" over more objective information. It doesn't seem to me that at any point you considered the ramifications of singer's kill, nor did you look for associations with the flipped scum. Instead you plowed ahead using your feelies from day 2.

[Metal Sonic]

Imo, the mod-abuse thing is a bit overblown. MS had already started posting on his main, so the only thing Vi "confirmed" is that MS wasn't posting in a game he doesn't belong in and lying that someone else's alt was his own.

Actually I didn't. Vi outed me, and I was active at the time of the post so there was no point hiding any more. I "confirmed" Vi's confirmation.

Vi

did out

me, even though I have made it clear multiple times that I did not want it to do so. This is clearly a purposeful abuse of moderator power.

[Metal Sonic]

Metal Sonic is an epic-tier, hohum-class piece of shit on a personal level. It's even beyond the usual sorts of people we see as moderators, because they at least tend to have been provoked into awfulness. Metal Sonic does it for fun!

Firstly, this is over the line. I'm been absolutely patient with you, but this is enough. I've been taking your abuse, when all I have done was for attempting to determine your alignment, and lo-and-behold! You were the hardest defender of scum in the entire game! Apparently, you still have the cheek to blame others for not townreading you enough.

Secondly, 99.99% of MafiaScummers would disagree with you.

Case closed.

From this post onwards, I'm going to stop being friendly to Vi, because #2780 was clearly antagonistic, and it's a waste of my effort to be nice to people who are going out of their way to do the opposite.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Metal Sonic is an epic-tier, hohum-class piece of shit on a personal level. It's even beyond the usual sorts of people we see as moderators, because they at least tend to have been provoked into awfulness. Metal Sonic does it for fun!

Firstly, this is over the line. I'm been absolutely patient with you, but this is enough. I've been taking your abuse, when all I have done was for attempting to determine your alignment, and lo-and-behold! You were the hardest defender of scum in the entire game! Apparently, you still have the cheek to blame others for not townreading you enough.

Secondly, 99.99% of MafiaScummers would disagree with you.

Case closed.

From this post onwards, I'm going to stop being friendly to Vi, because #2780 was clearly antagonistic, and it's a waste of my effort to be nice to people who are going out of their way to do the opposite.

Congratulations on making the whole world blind. How do you feel?

Ah, it looks like we're out of time. We'll be back next week though, on "Terrible posts that serve absolutely no purpose!"

-Audience Applause-

Seriously, both of you drop it. Neither of you like each other, we get it, welcome to MafiaScum. This isn't a community populated by people who all love eachother.

That being said, if you two can't be civil, then frankly you're missing the whole point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, I almost never ask this but fuck it, I like the way Kagami writes.

What would you have done differently than me, Kagami? I would ask the question (How would you improve my scum game?) but given that this game ended in a town loss, that's a bit of a hard position to speak from.

Though, I suppose if you wanted to look through all my games and stuff feel free to answer that, but you get the idea.

[Vi]

Alright, clearly there were two major errors on your part:

1. Your two strongest townreads were scum. Your scumreads were town.
2. Your confidence in your reads was far too high.

Your post-game commentary seems to mostly focus on other members of the town being "scummy" in one way or another, and thus deserving of your suspicion. That your two strongest townreads were scum suggests that the issue is primarily on your end, however. Clearly your model of "scumminess" needs to be heavily re-evaluated.

The inaccuracy of your model is compounded by your overconfidence. You made it essentially impossible to lynch the two scum players, making it 100% safe for them to give town the double-lynch. It also lead you to disregard the more accurate reads of your fellow town. I think part of the issue here is that you view "neutralness" as scummy and thus avoid it unnaturally.

As a specific criticism of your model, you seem to value "tone" over more objective information. It doesn't seem to me that at any point you considered the ramifications of singer's kill, nor did you look for associations with the flipped scum. Instead you plowed ahead using your feelies from day 2.

Affirmed. I acknowledge that I made it impossible to lynch LLD, and that I went off the plan to lynch zakk. I screwed up impressively.

I did consider the ramifications of singersigner's kill and looked at associations with the flipped scum, and I posted both of these inthread. I did reason that the singersigner kill was made because the scum were not threatened by the Town bloc (and they weren't), though I didn't consider her reads. I mentioned this to Metal Sonic D4, but came to the conclusion that no one alive D4 was particularly threatened by the Town bloc on D3. That was what led me to initially suspect Ranmaru, though him dying overNight caused some trouble with that read. I was surprised that LLD was not dead N1 (over RedCoyote, who was in a similar political position but more broadly suspected), and Nacho not dead N2 and N3 (despite claiming a power role and being a universal Town read), but I couldn't really do much with that except be deeply concerned that there was scum in the Town bloc (and LLD was going to be the last person I picked out of there). I did actually discuss with you that Cabd-scum made zakk-scum most likely of the people he discussed because Cabd's read on him was even more obviously made of paper than his other reads, but you shot it down.

Looking at the reads of the other Town players is easier when 1) I understand that they're Town, and 2) they're not using things like the Rule of So. I dismissed Jazzmyn completely out of hand for that and basically being a Scumread PGO. I don't know what to do with this, since we're necessarily making this argument in hindsight and assigning considerably more weight to correct scum reads than anything else.

With regard to overconfidence, yeah, the bloc was probably pushing it. However, that's what you're supposed to do with solid Town reads. Part of the reason you landed in trouble was because I lost confidence in my (well-founded) Town read on Plum, and I pulled zakk from my Town read list after a short while on Day 2, so saying that I just don't reconsider reads would be inaccurate. With regard to making sure your core Town reads are definitely, bedrock, completely Town, well, yes, I thought I had done that. I was wrong. In other words, I'm saying I had the right approach but didn't vet it for quality control well enough. Would you disagree?

"Tone" being wrong became evident once I realized that I had Town reads on almost everyone that way, but I also had reason to think that everyone was scum based on what they were actually doing (except Nacho, and even then Nacho was making a push on BBMolla that I didn't trust). I was simply ineffective on the last Day for this reason.

I'm having a little trouble with what specifically I could have done better (aside from being able to read LLD D1, surrendering my Town read on your slot D2, and going off the plan to lynch zakk D4) without any knowledge from the game that I did not have at the time. Postgame, it's easy to say "oh well

clearly

" but what would be very helpful would be picking out the things that were definitely identifiable mistakes at the time they were made.

Actually I didn't. Vi outed me, and I was active at the time of the post so there was no point hiding any more. I "confirmed" Vi's confirmation.

Vi did out me, even though I have made it clear multiple times that I did not want it to do so. This is clearly a purposeful abuse of moderator power.

Affirmed.

Firstly, this is over the line. I'm been absolutely patient with you, but this is enough. I've been taking your abuse, when all I have done was for attempting to determine your alignment

Ditto. That is basically what I was saying to you. Do you see how this sentiment is going both ways, and would you like to stop this from going on?

and lo-and-behold! You were the hardest defender of scum in the entire game! Apparently, you still have the cheek to blame others for not townreading you enough.

How you were reading me had little to do with it.

[Metal Sonic]

No, I had to make it clear that the post was over the line. I've posted a number of times that I liked Vi but she refuses to be nice back.

I've been absolutely civil. I have not used any expletives or vulgarities with the express purpose of insulting Vi, and I have not done so in 2784. Great job on calling me a "piece of shit", though. I was defending my actions as game related but Vi decides to involve Out-Of-Game business which led to all of this. I am still defending myself while Vi is going offensive.

Anyway, thanks for the sarcasm LLD. You really did not have to respond to that.


p-edit: Better stuff. Hell yeah, I love Kagami.


LLD, you pinged a couple of my Level 5 Scum Tells which was why I was very quick to jump onto you after singer died. In fact, if there wasn't a certain symp in the game, I would argue that you might not have made it this far.

I would PM these tips to you because I would like to keep my scumhunting methods top secret and I suppose you want your improvements in your scumgame to be too?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No, I had to make it clear that the post was over the line. I've posted a number of times that I liked Vi but she refuses to be nice back.

I've been absolutely civil. I have not used any expletives or vulgarities with the express purpose of insulting Vi, and I have not done so in 2784. Great job on calling me a "piece of shit", though. I was defending my actions as game related but Vi decides to involve Out-Of-Game business which led to all of this. I am still defending myself while Vi is going offensive.

Anyway, thanks for the sarcasm LLD. You really did not have to respond to that.


p-edit: Better stuff. Hell yeah, I love Kagami.


LLD, you pinged a couple of my Level 5 Scum Tells which was why I was very quick to jump onto you after singer died. In fact, if there wasn't a certain symp in the game, I would argue that you might not have made it this far.

I would PM these tips to you because I would like to keep my scumhunting methods top secret and I suppose you want your improvements in your scumgame to be too?

I want you to take a look at my avatar then tell me if you think it cares whether or not I "had" to respond to that.

I'm telling you to stop propagating fights and using Ad Populum arguments to tell someone why their dislike of you is unfounded.

You will never convince this person of this, this way and you will only ever cause a shitstorm (Darude-ShitStorm)~.

So drop that whole stuff, and let it go (the cold never bothered me anyway).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Alright, I'm going to teach you a lesson MetalSonic.

It's called "things I care about in a mafia game".

In the end, you called me town. It wasn't because of anyone elses reads, because you were content to call me scum without those after singer died.

No, you called me town because you agreed with Kagami's reasoning that I was town per my role, and eventually dropped me.

I made a conscious choice to burn a ton of my town cred killing singer. In that choice, I then made another consicous choice to do something I felt would redouble that town cred, by not only making my perspective seem really town, but also making it a lot harder to consider I was the one making the singer kil.

So, I dunno, I feel like any statement that comes from "I knew you were scum and if this game had gone differently, I would have gotten you" is missing the point.

[vezokpiraka]

@vi

The thing is that I know you from long ago. You were the only friendly face I ever saw on this site. Everyone said I was awful and you were actually defending me. I thought of you very highly.

Now you come in and hurt one of my best friends on site and start saying you are always right.

You were very modest and aleays helpful 3 or so years ago. What happened Vi?

[singersigner]

Yet another example of why it bothers me that no one bothers used NKA anymore. Scum know they can get away with the more obvious kills because people don't really pay attention to them past "oh maybe PR hunting" or "well they were obv town". Like, who cares about killing obv town if you've got them town reading you?

But I digress. I knew once I died it was a lost cause for town because literally no one else was campaigning for LLDscum, and being more confirmed off a role people assumed she had a choice to use whenever was equally depressing but oh well. Such is the game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yet another example of why it bothers me that no one bothers used NKA anymore. Scum know they can get away with the more obvious kills because people don't really pay attention to them past "oh maybe PR hunting" or "well they were obv town". Like, who cares about killing obv town if you've got them town reading you?

But I digress. I knew once I died it was a lost cause for town because literally no one else was campaigning for LLDscum, and being more confirmed off a role people assumed she had a choice to use whenever was equally depressing but oh well. Such is the game.

I could use it whenever, that was true.

But I understand your pain. You played fantastically, truly.

[Vi]

@vi

The thing is that I know you from long ago. You were the only friendly face I ever saw on this site. Everyone said I was awful and you were actually defending me. I thought of you very highly.

Now you come in and hurt one of my best friends on site and start saying you are always right.

You were very modest and aleays helpful 3 or so years ago. What happened Vi?

All references to professional abyss-gazing aside,
*I don't think I said I was always right. I'm certainly strong-willed but I'm not going to claim I'm always factually correct (in fact I just got done with a post where I pretty unequivocally confessed to being a large part of the problems this Town had).
*That same strong will that saw the best in you three years ago and was willing to speak out about it has tried to see the best in Metal Sonic and failed, and is willing to speak out about it.
*(In fact, the person I saw the best in and spoke out about in this game was Ranmaru.)

Did this memory of me affect your read on me ingame?

Yet another example of why it bothers me that no one bothers used NKA anymore. Scum know they can get away with the more obvious kills because people don't really pay attention to them past "oh maybe PR hunting" or "well they were obv town". Like, who cares about killing obv town if you've got them town reading you?

It's closer to the truth to say that I didn't use it well. <.<

[Vampirate]

@vi

The thing is that I know you from long ago. You were the only friendly face I ever saw on this site. Everyone said I was awful and you were actually defending me. I thought of you very highly.

Now you come in and hurt one of my best friends on site and start saying you are always right.

You were very modest and aleays helpful 3 or so years ago. What happened Vi?

The one thing about mafia (I know this from another site) is that people cannot actually see the tone of people's words. Considering mafia is 70% perception and 30% facts (I may be wrong) then other players cannot see any stress of any real day lives or the true tone in ones post one is trying to convey.

ABR is a perfect example here. I have no real issue with him but the one thing he doesn't understand, even though he's a very good player by a skill reputation here is that unlike here, we can actually hear the tone of a standup comedian. In here all we have are just words and the problem with his posts then was he was taking the supposed jokes to an uncomfortable personal level, hence the creepy factor. It could be part of his play style though for all I know, everyone has their own playstyle and some just don't like others.

Anyways, without knowing what is going on in either's heads or anything Vi and Metal Sonic are going on in real life, the whole argument is just a 'he said she said' argument at this point from an outside perspective.

As an aside, if anyone would like to discuss on improvements to their game or improvements to mine I wouldn't mind. I came to this site to get better.

Also, sorry for replacing out. With 2 larges that are now done, this and another, I had over 200 pages to go through both combined and my head just wasn't there to catch up on either so I replaced out of both to clean the palette as you might say.


@Vi, hopefully this isn't your last, and honestly hopefully far from your last.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vi, do us all a favor and stop. You just don't understand.

[Albert B. Rampage]

And nobody will be able to explain it to you the way you are.

[Metal Sonic]

heyyyyyy ABR my man I forgot you were in this game with all that drama!


bro i missed you and wanted to play with you (even if under an alt). I was

very sad

that you left, although UT did alleviate that sadness by patching superman Nacho in.

i want to play with you again. you're a good man. see you soon

xoxo

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't hide under alts. I was travelling the west coast for 3 weeks and had bad internet connections, then I had to run a festival in my home city, so yeah, I had to replace out, not because of Jazzmyn or LLD calling me "creepy".