Light and Darkness (Mini 1810) - Game Over!


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Post Post #2275 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:30 am

Post by Infinity 324 »

I was spectating for part of the time, that was a crazy game.
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Post Post #2276 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:31 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 2275, Infinity 324 wrote:I was spectating for part of the time, that was a crazy game.
Ah, ok. It was indeed crazy.
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Post Post #2277 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:34 am

Post by Frozen Angel »

It was I agree :]

sorry if anyone felt they had less chance to win again. I still beleive the power of factions were like Dark=Light >> Mafia or at least Dark > Light >> Mafia

But its ok if your not agreed :] Its not a fact. its something everyone can have different correct ideas about.
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Post Post #2278 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:49 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 2263, Fate wrote:I did want BTD dead D1 MoI


*sigh*

gg
Yeah I know. This was his one get out of jail free card.

From now on I see him playing anything like this and I'll lynch without pity.

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Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
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Post Post #2279 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:57 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 2265, Fate wrote:
In post 1172, Fate wrote:ANKAMIUS

Take up the sword of your previous slot holder!!!


Also BTD can still die and Nacho you never explained why his posting was better
I can blame Nacho too both for replacing out and having an awesome role and distracting me from scumz
blaming me for this game seems like a pretty fine move >_>
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Post Post #2280 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:00 am

Post by Firebringer »

I thought I was a good replacement for nacho :(
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #2281 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:01 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

my replacement was a pretty sweet upgrade!
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Post Post #2282 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:27 am

Post by BTD6_maker »

Thanks for the game, mods.

I actually thought scum was reasonably balanced here. This was especially as Day 4 was effectively LyLo despite one of my primes being lynched earlier.
What I will say is that Vedith getting his alignment wrong probably made Town auto-lose. We were confused by why Murdercat's numbers didn't make any sense. I was seriously considering claiming Light to lynch Murdercat, but refrained because we decided that given my Dark softing, it would make me seem scummy. (Plus we had no idea whether Murdercat was right or not, due to Vedith claiming Light).
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Post Post #2283 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:02 am

Post by Ircher »

Ya'll were in a 50/50 position except for Vedith's mistake; the two of you also had to get 5 mislynches in a mini; that's impressive really.
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Post Post #2284 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:02 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 2281, Nachomamma8 wrote:my replacement was a pretty sweet upgrade!
Sorry about that tho.
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Post Post #2285 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:33 am

Post by MURDERCAT »

In post 2272, McMenno wrote:
In post 2259, MURDERCAT wrote:Well I don't know what I could have done about that
realising vedith was conftown because he didn't hammer you

town kind of deserved to lose though, why was ira lynched over jason again? he literally townslipped and jason was scummy as fuck
Yeah I don't know I'm too busy for forum mafia for a while, I was shit this game
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Post Post #2286 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:39 am

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 2281, Nachomamma8 wrote:my replacement was a pretty sweet upgrade!
I'd rather the Nacho 1.0 :P
Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
In the process of creating a game to mod, we will see what it holds.
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Post Post #2287 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:21 am

Post by Ircher »

For those who haven't noticed, there is a player survey in the 2nd post of the dead pt; I highly recommend taking your time to give your opinion on it; it'll make me a better mod if you do!
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Post Post #2288 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:01 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 2277, Frozen Angel wrote:It was I agree :]

sorry if anyone felt they had less chance to win again. I still beleive the power of factions were like Dark=Light >> Mafia or at least Dark > Light >> Mafia

But its ok if your not agreed :] Its not a fact. its something everyone can have different correct ideas about.
I personally don't think Mafia is all that weak, sure we get started in the killing later than normal, but once we get killing, the Town falls really quick.

The main thing is just surviving to about N4 (hell, I didn't even manage to survive for my second kill)

The main reason Mafia is weak, is things like the Informed townie, which works against Scum extremely hard, because if that person survives, you back scum right into the fucking corner (And the only reason we got out of that corner happened to be Vedith forgetting his actual alignment).

And it's not like we know this role existed or anything (let alone we didn't have any knowledge of the 7/4 between the towns.)

My main qualm is that town (specifically dark) has more info then scum, sure it only occurs at D4, but that really just isn't right.

Hell if we had known it was 7/4, i would have fought fairly heavily against the Iraon lynch, and would have suggested being split into the 2 towns, rather then both in one.

And yeah Light town is weak as fuck, and that is all through the dead topic.
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Post Post #2289 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:18 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 2288, JasonWazza wrote:And yeah Light town is weak as fuck, and that is all through the dead topic.
And as an added to this point, Light managed to be put in a lose-lose scenario, From
1
Light Lynch (the other kill on light was my poison kill).

And honestly at the time it happened, let's be honest, even if light wanted to stop a lynch, they have to go against a 5 manned dark team, and a 2 manned scum team, to stop the lynch, which only requires 6 to lynch.

You can't honestly say that light is balanced when even 1 lynch on them can cause a complete loss to occur (with no chance of winning)
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Post Post #2290 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:24 pm

Post by Ircher »

And thats where my ideas & FAs ideas concerning balance differs.

Spoiler: My Own Thoughts....
Part I: Rating Questions
* (1 is lowest, don't explain here)
Question #1:
On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the flavor of the game? Consider all parts of the game including role pms, pre-game, day/night scenes, and endgame. Also consider it's relation to the given theme.
7

Question #2:
On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the Light/Darkness split-town mechanic? (Keep in mind that it is the central focus of the setup, and the setup was designed around that mechanic).
7

Question #3:
On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between town (as a whole) and mafia? While the split-town does play a role in the overall balance, we are looking at the balance between them and their common enemy, the mafia.
6

Question #4:
On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between the two towns. While the mafia are a common threat to both, you are to ignore their impact when answering this question.
12

Question #5:
On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall balance of the entire setup. It is possible that while subsections of the setup may be balanced, the overall balance may be tilted to one side or another. The key question here is do you think each faction had a close to equal chance of winning?
15

Question #6:
On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall quality of the game considering all aspects? This includes everything from flavor, balance, core mechanic, execution quality, and how much you enjoyed watching the game.
23


Final Score: 70 / 100 (Moderator use only!)


Part II: Short Answer Questions
* (No more than a single sentence; generally brief 1-word responses are expected.)
Question #7:
How would you summarize your opinion of this game in 1 word?
Suspenseful

Question #8:
Do you feel the setup was worth running? Do not explain why.
Definitely.

Question #9:
How would you describe the overall balance of this game in 1 word?
Fair


Part III: Constructed Response Questions
(Optional, but highly recommended; answers are recommended to be in written in paragraph form using proper grammar to the best of your abilities. Multi-paragraph responses would be wonderful!)
Question #10:
What is your opinion concerning the mechanical themes in the game and why? Keep in mind there are multiple mechanical themes in the game (Split Town, Fire/Poison kills, Town White Flag). How would you suggest to improve the execution of certain themes (primarily Split-Town)? Is there anything else you would like to say about the mechanical themes of the setup?


Some things worked out great, others not so much. Let's start with the smaller stuff: I feel that adding the White Flag mechanic to both of the towns has helped the balance of this game tremendously; would definitely consider doing that again if I run a sequel. The White Flag helps to clear up a few mucky kingmaker situations, and it helps clarify endgame situations. Nonetheless, the White Flag mechanic has a few pitfalls when applied as a lose condition in a multi-town game. The primary concern being that scum fakeclaiming a certain alignment get outed immediately if one faction achieves their lose condition. We didn't see it happen this game, but it nearly did; the only thing that caused it not to be a problem was that mafia were careful not to directly claim their alignment. A somewhat significant side effect that should be kept in mind for the future, but for the most part, I think the benefits outweigh that con plus it encourages mafia to townhunt too, so they don't accidentally confirm themselves as scum.

Moving on, we have the night kill changes for the mafia. In this particular setup, the only roleblocker lied in scum hands, and that's a really good thing because if either mafia flipped and a town roleblocker was still alive, the other was probably doomed as they were restricted by role. That said, I absolutely LOVED having delayed kills; it was a great way to keep town always guessing and whatnot! (Sure took them awhile to figure out, but kudos to Snarky for figuring it out.) On the other hand, the delayed kills present several balance issues as one realizes how weak they really are. In the mini, the lynch was good enough even though scum had to be more clever; however, in a large, the severe lack of kill opportunities and possibly high number of chances for a kill to fail in a way.... It needs to be improved. The best way to fix this is probably three-fold, but I'll talk about that when I talk about balance. Overall, a decent addition to the game, but it needs (a lot of) polishing.

Finally, let's discuss the split-town mechanic. It definitely underwhelmed me; that's the fact of the matter. Before someone assumes I'm saying "scrap it", listen first. I feel that the concept was great; in fact, it adds a whole new dimension to play! Not only do you have your common foe to defeat (mafia), but you also have your lesser foe to defeat (the other town). The problem lies with the setup imo and the execution of the mechanic; there were a lot of things I could've done to make the mechanic more interesting and more balanced. In addition, the playerlist totally killed the mechanic's idea by mass-claiming alignments; that definitely got me to roll my eyes. The fact that people thought they could break the game by mass-claiming alignments was absolute idiocracy, and it should've been clear from the start that such was practically impossible. Getting back on topic, I will conclude that the mechanic ought to be given a second chance; there is a bunch of untapped potential waiting to be utilized here, and without a doubt, if it is executed properly, it could change the way people play.


Question #11:
What is your opinion concerning both the overall balance and individual sections concerning balance of the game? How well balanced is the basic conflict of mafia versus town (ignoring to some extent the split town mechanic), and why do you feel that way? What would you suggest doing to improve the basic balance between the towns and mafia and why? How well balanced are the two towns in relation to one another, and why do you feel that way? What would you suggest doing to improve the basic balance between the two towns (ignoring the mafia) and why? What suggestions would you make to improve the setup's overall balance, and why? Is there anything else you would like to say concerning the balance of the game?


When it comes to balance, this game could've definitely another set of EXPERIENCED eyes. Don't get me wrong --> Frozen Angel, Mhsmith, and Realeo did a great job of improving the concept of the game, but when it comes to evaluating the actual balance of the game, their efforts can probably described as mediocre. (And before anyone says anything, I'll note that I am horrible at reviewing complex games, and a split town is a pretty complex mechanic). That said, the game didn't feel broken --> Each faction had SOME REASONABLE CHANCE of winning outside pure luck. Looking at how this game ended, if I were to give win chances, it would probably be like 45% Dark Town, 25% Mafia, 30% Light Town. A few problems in this setup balance-wise include the delayed kills (and way too many protective roles....) and role confirmability. This game definitely wasn't breakable by alignment mass-claim; however, the setup made it easy for scum to mess that up if they weren't careful due to White Flag. Concerning the delayed kills, a few ideas to improve that are: 1) Making it a true factional kill not tied to an individual player's role. 2) Don't flip the possession of that ability. 3) Allow mafia to execute them more often. (Arsonist every night + Poison on even nights wouldn't be too bad). Fixing the problem with delayed kills would help the town vs. mafia balance tremendously. The other thing that pught to change is the backup poison doctor's role to something else, but I couldn't think of anything that was a weak yet worthwhile role to possess. Murder's info ended up borderlining on game-breaking, but it came at a late enough time where it couldn't wreak too much havoc. Still, I ought to give them less info next time. The info concerning scum's affiliation in the Identity Cop role pms was a mistake --> The two identity cops could've used it to inadvertently confirm each other; that was not by any means intentional. Last of all, 6-5-2 would've decreased the swing of the setup and drastically improve balance between the two town factions. Overall, the balance could use a lot of changes, but the setup was doable.


Question #12:
Why did you choose to moderate/review/spectate this game? How well did the game meet your expectations?


I moderated because I find moderating more fun than actually playing (as can be seen by looking at the mod thread's length). I really liked the mechanical idea in this setup, but I feel it wasn't executed properly and there is a lot of room for improvement. Overall, a little disappointed in my own setup, but it was still great in terms of following.


Question #13:
What were your favorite part about the game and why? What was your least favorite part of the game and why? Is there anything you would suggest to improve the parts of the game you disliked and why? What is the most memorable event from the game? Which parts/aspects of the game do you think executed well/were designed well? Which parts didn't work as well? Is there anything else you would like to say concerning your overall experience with this game, and/or how it was execited?


The split-town is both my favorite and least favorite part about this is the setup because of the impact it had. I REALLY wish I executed it better and in a more fun way, but on the other hand, this setup was made around it. The most memorable event has to be Vedith forgeting his alignment and screwing the game for town. This game has a lot of potential to be better, and I'll make sure to be more thorough in the future.
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Post Post #2291 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:37 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 2290, Ircher wrote: it would probably be like 45% Dark Town, 25% Mafia, 30% Light Town.
Personally i don't believe that Light town even really had a 30% chance to win, Personally i would say it would be 50/30/20 (D/M/L)

Honestly Mafia had a better chance to win because we didn't have to rely on lynches, Light actually had to rely on lynching dark town and then mafia in a more realistic world because of the numbers disadvantage.
Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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Post Post #2292 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:49 pm

Post by Ircher »

In post 2291, JasonWazza wrote:
In post 2290, Ircher wrote: it would probably be like 45% Dark Town, 25% Mafia, 30% Light Town.
Personally i don't believe that Light town even really had a 30% chance to win, Personally i would say it would be 50/30/20 (D/M/L)

Honestly Mafia had a better chance to win because we didn't have to rely on lynches, Light actually had to rely on lynching dark town and then mafia in a more realistic world because of the numbers disadvantage.
There were a good number of ways you could've been screwed; who got lynched DID MATTER to the mafia.
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Post Post #2293 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:48 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 2289, JasonWazza wrote:
In post 2288, JasonWazza wrote:And yeah Light town is weak as fuck, and that is all through the dead topic.
And as an added to this point, Light managed to be put in a lose-lose scenario, From
1
Light Lynch (the other kill on light was my poison kill).

And honestly at the time it happened, let's be honest, even if light wanted to stop a lynch, they have to go against a 5 manned dark team, and a 2 manned scum team, to stop the lynch, which only requires 6 to lynch.

You can't honestly say that light is balanced when even 1 lynch on them can cause a complete loss to occur (with no chance of winning)
in case of a massclaim light would loose. yeah. thats the price of doing such gamble I agree its a high punishment.

I agree a light had weaker stances on lynch wagons. I wasn't paying attention this factor , I might add some voting power to lights to balance this.
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Post Post #2294 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:43 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2290, Ircher wrote:In addition, the playerlist totally killed the mechanic's idea by mass-claiming alignments; that definitely got me to roll my eyes. The fact that people thought they could break the game by mass-claiming alignments was absolute idiocracy, and it should've been clear from the start that such was practically impossible.
I dunno. After trying to think of a way that dark town could've used that information better, all I've come to the conclusion of is that light-town had a far better chance with Vedith claiming dark than light. :/

One of the reviewers said that each alignment lynch wins the game for one of the other alignments when it was 3-2-1, and that lynching dark wins light the game in that particular scenario. That makes it a lot more likely for light to win since the only people dark can tolerate lynching is one of the claimed darks.

tl;dr: god damn it vedith
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Post Post #2295 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:47 pm

Post by Ankamius »

It was already obvious, but the level of difference that one mistake had on the game was enormous. I feel like this game can be a good example for a lot of things. It mostly relates to how to handle multiple towns from a moderating
and
playing standpoint, but it should also be a good example on how devastating a small mistake in claiming your role can be and, well... how self-hammering as town can be an acceptable choice in some very specific scenarios.
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Post Post #2296 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:18 pm

Post by BTD6_maker »

In post 2253, Ircher wrote:
Game Over!


It is a sad day for the planet, but perhaps, Zanos will be given a chance to redeem itself in the future.
If there is a sequel, I have some ideas on how to improve the game. Once I get mod rights in the Mini Theme queue, I could run the sequel with you as joint mods. (It won't be the exact same setup).
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Post Post #2297 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:28 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

You played great BTD :]
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Post Post #2298 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:33 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

Yeah just try not to ask for so much help, no offense but it was kinda annoying.

Day talk doesn't mean you get advice on every little move you do, because you can easily look like scum in that case (coached by another player and not having "real" reads).
Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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Post Post #2299 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:51 pm

Post by BTD6_maker »

Part I: Rating Questions
* (1 is lowest, don't explain here) (I'm explaining anyway)
Question #1:
On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the flavor of the game? Consider all parts of the game including role pms, pre-game, day/night scenes, and endgame. Also consider it's relation to the given theme.
9
I enjoyed the theme flavour, although I am still wondering what the flavour for Day beginning would have been :]
Question #2:
On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the Light/Darkness split-town mechanic? (Keep in mind that it is the central focus of the setup, and the setup was designed around that mechanic).
6
An interesting idea, although I don't think it was executed as well as it could have been.
Question #3:
On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between town (as a whole) and mafia? While the split-town does play a role in the overall balance, we are looking at the balance between them and their common enemy, the mafia.
7
Mafia had a hard time in this game (ignoring Vedith) due to Murdercat.
Question #4:
On a scale of 1 to 15, how would you rate the balance between the two towns. While the mafia are a common threat to both, you are to ignore their impact when answering this question.
10
Light Town roles were too focused on finding and communicating with each other and were rather outnumbered. Again, I have a few ways to try balancing this a bit more.
Question #5:
On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall balance of the entire setup. It is possible that while subsections of the setup may be balanced, the overall balance may be tilted to one side or another. The key question here is do you think each faction had a close to equal chance of winning?
18
Dark Town had a disproportionately high chance of winning, but otherwise it wasn't too bad.
Question #6:
On a scale of 1 to 25, how would you rate the overall quality of the game considering all aspects? This includes everything from flavor, balance, core mechanic, execution quality, and how much you enjoyed watching the game.
21
This was a very enjoyable game to play, especially from a few days into it.

Final Score: 71 / 100 (Moderator use only!)


Part II: Short Answer Questions
* (No more than a single sentence; generally brief 1-word responses are expected.)
Question #7:
How would you summarize your opinion of this game in 1 word?
Suspenseful
I agree with you here.
Question #8:
Do you feel the setup was worth running? Do not explain why.
Definitely
I even think I could run a sequel with you possibly.
Question #9:
How would you describe the overall balance of this game in 1 word?
Swingy
Mafia could end up ruining a faction with Night Kills, even inadvertently. In addition, Dark was quite strong.

I will answer the verbal questions when I have more time.
"one of these days i'll read you correctly" - Transcend, Micro 714
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