Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[Bomberman]

Consider it a player tactic to strike emotionally in my own defense, but if I haven't made it clear I will do so if I have to. I have thought about digging myself and bringing about some points, but I don't really know if it would make a difference. There is a disparity between the way certain players react, but also what they do. Havo for example is someone who I pegged as very emotional, and I wanted to see through that their emotions were clear, but I let my own judgment decide that it was just hamfisted. I felt he only acted because of his emotions, and not because he wanted to. He lacked in the logical side of things, which led to his downfall. I only refer to this because the way I looked at Havo/Varsoon are completely different based on the assumption of their playstyles, and I knew just from the start that trying to speak and

emotionally

read Varsoon wasn't going to do me any good.

In that way, it may seem like I am trying to base my reads on emotion, but that's not the case. Logically speaking, Varsoon benefits more by trying his hardest to not give out any tells than taking risks. Think about the way Varsoon has operated this game, right from the start. He started off with a strong presence about mechanics to get his foot in the door and already tried playing to best interest. He kept his words textbook and made sure he was doing something, even if it was just talking about inactivity or lack or apathy. These are all fundamentally sound things, but they don't make sense if you think about it in comparison as to how a normal townie would operate. They have faults, they don't just say things at the right time in the right moment. I might even be blowing it out of proportion and just stroking his ego, but it paints a picture as to why these are problems. Perfection can only be pursued, and to ask yourself why someone would care so much about it instead of their words being true should be obvious as to why pursuing such is a problem.

[Bomberman]

Refer to the way Aptil died and the last phase he was alive, how much did he interact with Varsoon? None. Zilch. Nada. Aptil didn't need to because there was plan accounted for, which started with him being painted and then claiming he was a one-shot vig. I referred to this before, but those type of careful steps and plans aren't made by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, and there's really nobody else I could've thought of besides him as the numbers kept dwindling. It's why I wondered if there could be a 4-man, because I honestly still did not like Havo but in the back of mind there was a thought that they way things transpired couldn't have come from a scumHavo, at least not alone. scumHavo would've shot anyone who posed him a threat, and I'm pretty sure Varsoon talked about how much he didn't like Havo.

The point of what scumHavo would do is pretty moot, but the bigger picture is that whole phase couldn't have been done by someone who wasn't experienced enough to think through those things, and there's only one other person alive to fit the description.

[Cheetory6]

VoteCount 7.02

Varsoon [1]

- Bomberman

Bomberman [1]

- Varsoon

Not Voting [1]:

Aristophanes

With 3 alive, it takes 2 votes to lynch.
You have (expired on 2017-07-22 09:00:00) to do so.

[Varsoon]

You're sweeping a lot of my play under the rug so that it looks good for your case, which amounts to "He is playing too good to be town and be alive right now, must be scum."
I play great as town, sometimes. I suck ass as town sometimes. I play great as scum sometimes. I get demolished as scum sometimes.
We've been over this time and time again. Outside of N1, which was a kill that ended up on a PR anyway, scum didn't seem to have leeway with their kills.
As far as having some master plan--of course I did. I was on the fucking design team for the first paint mafia. When I got my role PM, I was already thinking of the best ways to utilize the paint mechanic to benefit town. I was already intimately familiar with the previous Paint games and aware of what was not conveyed in the opening rules posts that people needed to know if we were going to win. I pushed very hard to color flip my biggest suspect and they flipped red and we lynched scum on D1. If anything, the reason I'm still alive is because you were banking on paranoia (evident by players like Max being kept alive, too) and using my own strong early play against me.

In fact, going back and looking at it, Aptil was pushing hard not to let Max get cleared (via Fro99er's sure-fire clear on Max) and Bomber was insisting on a bussing narrative from the get-go. You also were sternly against Fro99er (who was the most townread voice pushing Aptil's colorflip) and their townbloc, which, as we've discovered, was just full of town players. If anything looks 'calculated' and played at a discerning pace behooving scum, it's your play on D2 after the Two-Face lynch.

[Varsoon]

Even your posturing on the Aptil wagon colorwagon D2 looks contrived as fuck, followed by you jumping ship onto JJH the second you get a chance.

[Bomberman]

That's not my case though. I'm trying to state the discrepancy why you are playing in the way you are. I don't really feel "good" would count here either because in bizzaro world where I'm scum you actually haven't played all that well. The brunt of my argument is that you trying to emulate a style that is fundamentally 'good', which is disingenuous because there is no motivation behind it. You've said a lot of empty words and only followed up on things when necessary, but I know that you know that I know that YOU know that I know you have enough experience to understand what pro-town is.

As far as having some master plan--of course I did. I was on the fucking design team for the first paint mafia. When I got my role PM, I was already thinking of the best ways to utilize the paint mechanic to benefit town. I was already intimately familiar with the previous Paint games and aware of what was not conveyed in the opening rules posts that people needed to know if we were going to win. I pushed very hard to color flip my biggest suspect and they flipped red and we lynched scum on D1. If anything, the reason I'm still alive is because you were banking on paranoia (evident by players like Max being kept alive, too) and using my own strong early play against me.

You never did anything about it though. You just blew hot air and tried to rally town when they were slacking, which doesn't take much effort. You think if you have all this presumed knowledge you would put it to use, but you only talked when it was relevant. We're gonna go in circles here at this rate. I've stated my reasons why I have approached your slot in the way that I have, and why I am making the arguments I am.

[Bomberman]

I didn't peg you on the idea of 'too good at mafia to be true', rather I read between the lines and thought about your play as a whole. It's very easy to misconstrue and try and water down my argument by only saying 'you only have the fact im too good to be alive against me', because I never had that thought process. What you said about JJH is wrong though, because I eventually backed off and focused more on fro99er. I have reasons , but do you? Did you ever follow up on a scumread? Did you ever follow up on your mislynches? No. You didn't want to get your hands dirty and of course you didn't need to as long as you kept checking the right boxes for people. I'm gonna say that you definitely benefited from the state of the game and the players to get this far, because I think you would've cracked a bit more under some pressure, but nobody ever got you to that point therefore your only concern was again, to just make it to the next phase.

[Varsoon]

Feels like you're projecting there. I can't recall anything you've done all game besides flounder around and skirt from phase to phase.

The entire game exists for Aristo to read and draw conclusions from. At this point, you're just painting the events to fit your narrative. If rallying doesn't "take much effort," then why did you fail at even that? I only talked when it was relevant? So, like, when anyone talks ever? I was a fairly instrumental part of the color flip phases for pretty much every one of them besides Gamma's, iirc. Again, Aristo can just read the game. It's a truer presentation than either of what us will conjure against the other.

[Bomberman]

I tried to many times, unless you recall the specific interaction we had with each other and the whole 'nutting up' instance. I was getting fed up with us going nowhere but my hands were tied behind my back when it came to you and Havo just disengaged and got really emotional with me. I was goal-oriented in what I was doing even if it didn't amount to much, but I don't ever recall you pushing a scumread.

[Varsoon]

Who is Two-Face?
Who is JJH?
Who is Havo?
Who is Bomber?

I've been pushing my scumreads all fucking game, homie.
Again, the whole thread exists. Aristo's been here and can just read it.

[Aristophanes]

Hurray for the ability to read!!!

I hate that both of you pushed the Nerd thing as your reasons to flip TwoFace. It makes it difficult to get anything out of it. Also, you both were extremely early votes on the wagon, which is of little help. Also also, all three of us have extremely similar postcounts so activity is a non-issue here. God dammit!

@Mod, please draw something funny for this happenstance of me accidentally quickhammering

This post made me gag at the time as it is such over the top forced that it is repulsive! "Draw something for this funny happenstance" is probably the most contrived request one could make and sounds so disingenuous it might be the literal driving force for my eventual vote on you, Bomber!

I keep trying to have an open mind when I read posts, both new and old, in this game. Every time I do though Varsoon is so obviously not Scum and you so obviously are that I don't see this going any other way. I'll see what happens though.

[Aristophanes]

Yet another armtwist situation, but this one I don't feel too bad about. If scum really decided to not NK to incriminate Aptil, then hats off to them for doing such a ballsy play.

VOTE: Aptil

This is just fucking sad . Fucking absolutely day2 all over again just this time i'm actually getting lynched.

Yeah, but this time you don't have a fakeclaim to last-minute push off to a mislynch.

What I'm hoping is that it's D1 all over again, where we lynch scum. Wanna make me a happy man? Go on and flip red. Or whatever color you've painted yourself, I guess.

VOTE: Aptil

These are two votes on scum. But which is a bus?

Bomber sits is the middle of the wagon. The safe zone. The spot where it is found that scum populate more times than not.
The theory that Scum NK'd to incriminate Aptil while also voting there shows they don't believe their case. Yet they vote Aptil. This makes no sense.

Varsoon looks too confident in his hammer post though. He looks like he knows he will get a red (read: scum) flip and reacts accordingly. The hammer could be out of a hope for towncred. The post looks like he knows Aptil was painted.


Now for devil's advocate.


Bomber was early enough on the wagon that it didn't make sense to be there as scum. Why push a buddy when there are far more viable targets alive still? Why call it an armtwist and make a crazy theory as scum? It would make far more sense to look at this logically rather than making some weird narrative like they did.

Varsoon looks at the thread with logic and confidence. He is hopefl that a scum flip will occur and thus takes the risk. Why would he hammer as scum? I mean, there's no way he could know I was going to come in and almost derail the wagon should he not vote, but he also could have delayed and hoped for movement in another direction. With shorter deadlines a NL was perfectly possible, and the towncred for hammering scum isn't much of a thing with current site meta. So why bother?

[Aristophanes]

I'm disgusted with everyone who wasn't here, didn't compromise on a wagon, and the fact we had TWO confirmed townies not voting.
I wish there was just a clear-cut "This is the person responsible for there being a no-lynch" but there isn't and that annoys the fuck out of me.

Let's actually focus and play and put down votes this time, please.

This is a towny response.

Nobody wants to flip Varsoon so I'm throwing my hands in the air and giving the people what they seemingly want.

Vote: Bomberman

This is a scummy response.

Like, I keep reading and nothing is changing my mind!

Recent and historical posts all point in the same direction.

[Aristophanes]

I read and read and read. I checked all different days of the game. All different phases. I read all of the cases and discussion this day. Every word of it.

Nothing has changed.

Do either of you have any final words? I intend to make my hammer in the morning.

[Aristophanes]

Also, it would be cool to either do it on pagetop or leave the pagetop for Cheeto, so posts which get up to or close to that point are appreciated

[Bomberman]

My early behavior in this game was based on the fact I wanted to relax and be a bit loose. It's why I joined on this account in the first place. I took a risk on Aptil, one that persisted more than believing that we had some sort of one-shot vig. Need I remind you on the phase of rayas death, I had voted and pushed Aptil. There was never a point I townread Aptil, though when I called it an armtwist it's because It was similar in what happened before.

[Bomberman]

God, you keep making the same mistake everyone has made this fucking game. Stop looking at what Varsoon is saying and instead focus on what he does with it, or perhaps why he says it. Maybe because he has a ulterior motive to look good?

[Aristophanes]

My early behavior in this game was based on the fact I wanted to relax and be a bit loose. It's why I joined on this account in the first place. I took a risk on Aptil, one that persisted more than believing that we had some sort of one-shot vig. Need I remind you on the phase of rayas death, I had voted and pushed Aptil. There was never a point I townread Aptil, though when I called it an armtwist it's because It was similar in what happened before.

I appreciate the wish to play loosely! It's why Gorkington is a thing. Heck, it's why a lot of alts come into being! You still made plays throughout the game which advanced Scum's agenda and I don't see that from Varsoon..

Sure, you didn't townread Aptil, but you still have curious interactions and stances, curious wordings and placements, just too much to overlook.

[Aristophanes]

God, you keep making the same mistake everyone has made this fucking game. Stop looking at what Varsoon is saying and instead focus on what he does with it, or perhaps why he says it. Maybe because he has a ulterior motive to look good?

I don't think so, but I will give him one more readthrough in the morning before I decide. You're not dead yet

[Bomberman]

So you remember when I was like 'what has Varsoon done to be town'? I was very clear in those choice of words because I was and am fed up about people denying me. You all think one-dimensionally about this game apparently and don't question if the things people are selling you on actually are worth it in the end. You're easily bought in that case because as long as it looks proper theres no issue. Goddamnit, you think a player with a smooth operator title knows a thing or two about making their words pretty without any substance, but you don't care about that fact so long as it fits a logical checklist in your mind. You can't think about the game like that with everyone, and if you need to hammer me and see that just get it fucking over with so I can say 'I told you so.'

[Aristophanes]

So you remember when I was like 'what has Varsoon done to be town'? I was very clear in those choice of words because I was and am fed up about people denying me. You all think one-dimensionally about this game apparently and don't question if the things people are selling you on actually are worth it in the end. You're easily bought in that case because as long as it looks proper theres no issue. Goddamnit, you think a player with a smooth operator title knows a thing or two about making their words pretty without any substance, but you don't care about that fact so long as it fits a logical checklist in your mind. You can't think about the game like that with everyone, and if you need to hammer me and see that just get it fucking over with so I can say 'I told you so.'

There's a lot more that goes into this than you are noting though. There are motives. There is tone, There is placement on wagons. It's not just his smooth style that has him being read like this! If you think it is just his words that have me townreading him you are absolutely missing a huge aspect of the game and of my cases!

I know he is smooth, I know he is good. I know he is convincing as either alignment.
I was literally one of (if not the) first one in this game to note that his play is very good!

Spoiler: For reference

VOTE: Twoface
Not just because he gets a drawing, but also because I'm curious why Aristo joined and fell off after the drawing.

I was voting him bwcause he said he wasnt a nerd.

I unvoted when he accepted the facts

Ari do you have any reads?

I like Gamma for the dumb gambit for now and I'd like a Varsoon flip, as he would be an amazing conftown to have and D1 is the only time it happens! Sadly, it also shortens his lifespan if we do this.

However,
VOTE: Varsoon

Why do you think having Varsoon as a conftown outweighs the damage of losing him so early, possibly even N1?

Varsoon is a strong player and will have a short shelf life anyway, so I'd rather he be a true blue towny that we can trust! He's also a far better flip than a null, especially early game. Flipping a null can lead to apathy from them if town. Iirc it plagued West9 in the first game of this series.
Varsoon isn't the type of player to stop playing because he's conftown, making it an even better choice!

You think I am underestimating all of this and not taking any of it into account. You are very wrong there!

[Bomberman]

I honestly don't believe Varsoon has done anything to 'wow' which is why I never considered him as a boon in the first place. When I speak about this play I speak about the prettiness in a sense of it being manufactured, which is the only way I can try and tell you. You read my moments of inactivity and indecision as a staple of scumplay, but I have to ask you why they simply can't be faults. I am getting personal and talking down to you at this level because I don't believe doing the same thing Varsoon has done right now is beneficial, because I want you to see the contrast difference between us and make the right decision because of it. I am town and I care about the things I say and do. I am self-conscious to a fault, and sometimes I don't really think too hard about what I wanna say and just let it all out in the heat of the moment.

[Bomberman]

There are two absolutes I have been positive on this whole game and have acted upon it:

1) The TwoFace wagon had to have scum on it.
2) Town was being mislead into lynching each other over the state of the game and lack of effort of it.

The first one is pretty clear, and I based a lot of my comments around it. I said that it was between fro99er and Varsoon but of course I gave Varsoon more benefit of the doubt because he was doing exactly what you said, therefore I attacked fro99er for his behavior. Varsoon has done anything a good scum would, which is let town lynch themselves and make sure there's nothing he can be accountable for. I was also on the TwoFace wagon but if you really think I'm gonna bus my partner ~20 posts into the game then you're sorely mistaken. I've said it before and said it again, the TwoFace flip and wagon wasn't all that special. He wasn't playing good and he was daresay obvious scum that even the most dense of people could see. It was not a hard lynch and not something I am proud of, rather I would be more proud if people would've listened on what I've been preaching about this whole fucking game. A lot of people wanted to come at you and Apricity, or max or what have you and I sat and thought about the likelihood of there really being scum simply in the inactives. That turned out to be a right assumption in my eyes and I made this conclusion based on the fact we were killing off townies left and right. Once fro99er was out of the way it was down to two people, and we're only in this scenario is because everytime I wanted to color flip varsoon or point suspicion at him, you all wanted to tell me he was obviously town and refer as to how TwoFace got lynched.

The way TwoFace got lynched is not telling, it's what happened after it. Why is that a poor man scumteam ignores a power player after their goon had been lost already? Infinity was and always has been a very strange kill, but a lot of people in current meta are too scared of taking risks and just write things off as NAI. It's bullshit. I may have claimed Varsoon was null that point in time, but I damn well didn't townread him, and it's because I didn't want to accept the fact fro99er and Varsoon had to be town and that the proclaimed townbloc fro99er had made was true. That was way more scummy in my eyes because it read like only coasting off credit due. Fast forward a bit, fro99er is gerrymandering votes and making loud and proud claims while I continue and let things transpire because apparently I lack the credibility to be taken seriously as a player. Maybe when I turn out to be 100% fucking right you'll all trust me next time.

[Aristophanes]

Nothing I read is changing my mind. I'm really sorry, Bomberman, if I am incorrect here!

I've gone back and Iso'd you both and I just don't see VarsoonScum or BombermanTown.

[Aristophanes]

There are two absolutes I have been positive on this whole game and have acted upon it:

1) The TwoFace wagon had to have scum on it.
2) Town was being mislead into lynching each other over the state of the game and lack of effort of it.

The first one is pretty clear, and I based a lot of my comments around it. I said that it was between fro99er and Varsoon but of course I gave Varsoon more benefit of the doubt because he was doing exactly what you said, therefore I attacked fro99er for his behavior. Varsoon has done anything a good scum would, which is let town lynch themselves and make sure there's nothing he can be accountable for. I was also on the TwoFace wagon but if you really think I'm gonna bus my partner ~20 posts into the game then you're sorely mistaken. I've said it before and said it again, the TwoFace flip and wagon wasn't all that special. He wasn't playing good and he was daresay obvious scum that even the most dense of people could see. It was not a hard lynch and not something I am proud of, rather I would be more proud if people would've listened on what I've been preaching about this whole fucking game. A lot of people wanted to come at you and Apricity, or max or what have you and I sat and thought about the likelihood of there really being scum simply in the inactives. That turned out to be a right assumption in my eyes and I made this conclusion based on the fact we were killing off townies left and right. Once fro99er was out of the way it was down to two people, and we're only in this scenario is because everytime I wanted to color flip varsoon or point suspicion at him, you all wanted to tell me he was obviously town and refer as to how TwoFace got lynched.

The way TwoFace got lynched is not telling, it's what happened after it. Why is that a poor man scumteam ignores a power player after their goon had been lost already? Infinity was and always has been a very strange kill, but a lot of people in current meta are too scared of taking risks and just write things off as NAI. It's bullshit. I may have claimed Varsoon was null that point in time, but I damn well didn't townread him, and it's because I didn't want to accept the fact fro99er and Varsoon had to be town and that the proclaimed townbloc fro99er had made was true. That was way more scummy in my eyes because it read like only coasting off credit due. Fast forward a bit, fro99er is gerrymandering votes and making loud and proud claims while I continue and let things transpire because apparently I lack the credibility to be taken seriously as a player. Maybe when I turn out to be 100% fucking right you'll all trust me next time.

Your post makes no sense. Why would either of you bus your partner at 20 posts into the game?

If the lynch is not telling, then this doesn't matter anyway!

And you were both on it, so saying scum were for sure on it is not helpful at all.

I must do this.