Mini Theme 2007: Police Academy 1 - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

I was wrong. I own that. Yet constantly shouting me down over OMG 5 percent possible scumteam and demotivsting people to the point where they couldn't hear me is just bad. It's what you do. It causes people to double down.

Anyway gtg.

Part of that was you screaming yourself hoarse against us because one of the trolls called you the c word early.

I called everyone a cunt

[Jingle]

Also, worth noting is that Eddie's logic on me (BoP) was hilariously bad, but fighting back on it would have been counterproductive. I loltunnel town in pretty much every game I've ever played. Basically, my scumreads are easily the worst part of my townplay. My townreads are really only worth their salt when I've done extensive research into the player in question. I may have read a bunch of your games (I will neither confirm nor deny that I have ,) but you were never the target of my meta-ing

still doesnt mattwr bruh. you had garbage reasons that did NOT at all sound like the genuine town jungle I've spectsted. BoP isnt just having a wrong read, its the arguments. those were not townie genuine loltunnelling. also, the night kills had to be from someone who didnt want to stir the thread up.

The second part? Yeah, totally good reason to scumread me here, and something I never really drew much attention to in your arguments because there wasn't a good counterargument. The first? I direct your attention to the geriatric game I played where I consecutively lynched 3 townplayers on bad logic. You overestimate my ability to scumread people as town, but I COULDN'T argue against it because my only out was getting everyone to listen to me and lynch my scumreads again.

Still, fair is fair. You DID catch me, and I own that. Maybe we'll play again at some point and I can return the favor.

Also, Cheet, no worries. I can understand and I don't hold anything against you. Mafia is a game after all, and despite the loss I think this is one of the more fun ones I've played since coming back to the site. I just hope you're doing better/in a better headspace than you were buddy.

jingle you know this game just increases the chance that i will never townread you again yah lol

Pffft. You say that every time I roll scum.

[Titus]

I was wrong. I own that. Yet constantly shouting me down over OMG 5 percent possible scumteam and demotivsting people to the point where they couldn't hear me is just bad. It's what you do. It causes people to double down.

Anyway gtg.

Part of that was you screaming yourself hoarse against us because one of the trolls called you the c word early.

Any slot using that word deserves a site ban/force replace.

[OnTheMark]

I think a warn then ban/freplace Yeah

Some countries don’t have the issue with that word. It’s kinda only an American custom to block it.

[Ankamius]

Tbf Jingle

If you hadn't attacked me at the end of day 2, you probably would have blind sided me forever

[Mathdino]

Oh. And I outright lied about my tell on Mulch being an Elli tell. We did discuss his play briefly in the modchat, but I compiled my reasoning there all on my own. The thing that he did that made him locktown in this game, FWIW, is agree to drop his plan to outpost the hydra early. Mulch thinks that spamposting to demoralize town is a good scum strategy, and he had a legitimate excuse to do so. Letting that drop in order to work with a townread and let said townread pull together other players was possibly the most town thing he could possibly do, when one considers that he had absolutely no pressure to do so other than a single request and no reason to believe it would make townJingle certain he was town.

Isn't this kind of thing the essence of what a real Elli tell is?

[Nosferatu]

Some countries don’t have the issue with that word. It’s kinda only an American custom to block it.

I'm quite frankly amazed at other countries that just let that shit fly

I curse like a sailor but I can't even say that shit out loud

I read it as "c word" in my head lmfao

[Punreader]

I could not have NOT argued correct townplay in this game. Both ETL and pun would have lynched me D1 for it.

This is correct.
There were three contributing factors to my townread on Jingle.

1. The arguing of correct townplay
   
2. The nightkills not being the perfect counters to the correct townplay (i.e. had the nightkills been the most optimal to counter Jingle's strategy consistently it would have been a red flag as to who was controlling them)
   
3. EspeciallyTheLies's townread on him

Any of these absent produces a far less solid townread.

I also would like to note that when I went into the final game day I didn't bother to read the other results and simply assumed I was a random cop (as it turns out, correctly); I was waiting for all the results to be compiled and would in fact have voted Jingle once I saw them all.

Eddie/pun and OTM/Titus/SGBA all needed to stay alive as long as possible to keep the town from organizing around anyone other than me.

I maintain that my plan for the game would have still led to a town win. Mislynch Titus D2, cop eddie N3, both get revealed as town and then it's obvious that 2/3 of Nosferatu/Gorkington/Almost50 are pun with the third pun in the townreads somewhere. In fact, while my plan would end the game in a town win a full day phase later (meaning it was objectively inferior), we'd find Jingle a full day phase earlier. (At least, Ankamius would, if no one else.)

So I maintain we were winning regardless of that.

[Ankamius]

Pun, I think you're underestimating how drastic the A50 lynch was.

Either I'd have been killed (very very likely because... well... duh) and your biggest shield is missing, or I wouldn't have had the clout from the A50 scumflip to shield you effectively. Keep in mind that even with my shielding, you still almost got lynched on day three. Assuming that town would've gone the same path as we did here... then how do you stop the lynch?

That's not even considering a Nosferatu lynch after the Titus townflip. It's actually really difficult to get a scumlynch there with the way the gamestate was.

The game becomes a huge mess really quickly, and with a competent night planner with scum (which... well, would have looked quite a bit better without that A50 defense)... I don't really favor town's chances very much there.

[Ankamius]

Another underestimated point is that Jingle essentially

had

to push me as obvtown in order to avoid any developments from the attack on me at the end of day two.

It's... kind of hard to discredit or deflect a town that is correct, influential, and someone who you're supposed to be thinking is really obviously town. Especially one that already talked down a case on your mislynch target the day before.

[Ankamius]

Well... as for me figuring out Jingle earlier than everybody else, I probably would have burnt out and apathied if I wasn't being listened to and saw all the town death going on.

A lot of my momentum was from the A50 scumflip and the Titus cop-innos, which showed me that I was well on the right track.

[OnTheMark]

I second Ank’s thoughts.

A Lynch on anyone besides Almost50 would have been disastrous.

Titus and I almost always end up disagreeing. She disagreed on Almost50 and Jingle.

Pun I would have thought was a lost cause. Hell I was becoming apathetic towards end of day.

If a50 wasn’t lynched I probably would have just I dunno :/ but blah

[Eddie Cane]

can you and Titus agree to not try to read each other in the future please?

-_-

[OnTheMark]

can you and Titus agree to not try to read each other in the future please?

-_-

I tried to instant town read her :/

She disappeared :/

[McMenno]

Some countries don’t have the issue with that word. It’s kinda only an American custom to block it.

I'm quite frankly amazed at other countries that just let that shit fly

I curse like a sailor but I can't even say that shit out loud

I read it as "c word" in my head lmfao

do you mean just the word cunt not used as an insult directed towards women? is that what is meant by "that shit"?

and if mafiascum moderation wanted people to not say the word cunt then they would just slap a filter on it like the n word. not hand out warnings and force replaces and bans or all that nonsense.

[Ankamius]

well

ETL had influence and charisma to get her reads pushed through, but she was far more likely to push down her two townreads over A50
You had two scum in your scumreads, but you... also had obvtown in your scumreads too, which made people not want to trust or work with you
Punreader had mediocre to ok reads and had little influence, but was willing to work with people. Sadly, that's pretty useless without someone with better reads and charisma to work with.
eddie was both being suspected and had somewhat already ruined their chances of being able to rally town together. It wouldn't really be doable to bring town together for that slot.
SGBA... is SGBA. They didn't have a whole lot of influence over anything on day two and iirc the reads I saw from whatever slots put reads out there weren't very accurate either. There's also the point that their continued existence in the game basically single-handedly ruins Titus' odds of influencing anything.

then you have one of:
Titus, who had very wrong reads and was tunneling the obvtown hydra
Nosferatu, who was willing to work with people, but had no presence anymore

That doesn't have very much chances of coming together and still having the ability to accurately push scum to a lynch. Far more likely is that even if a town (ETL, maybe eddie/Punreader) manages to bring enough town together to push a scumread down, they'll just get nightkilled themselves the next night and the trend will continue.

A50 got lynched because the suspicion was already there, it just needed to be pushed (which snowballed, since I wasn't killed N2). Even then, just outright killing me would've been a huge step towards reaching this gamestate anyways, albeit with some huge advantages over a mislynch:

1. A scumflip, obviously. More room to fuck up and still have a town win.
2. Both the players on the chopping block before the A50 wagon sprang up easily hopped on over to a confirm scum when the wagon started. That's a strong indicator that they're both town, even without my shielding.
3. Jingle's soft-defense of A50 is still there, so it's reasonable that he's in the PoE list

I don't really know what exactly ETL would have done in that scenario since it's hard to parse whether the Punreader tunnel was due to the fact that she specifically wasn't killed or that a weird SGBA kill was done instead, but if that doesn't change, then Punreader probably dies day 3, sadly.

It's a huge slippery slope :/ The gamestate was very fragile even going into day three, but hopefully the strength of my gorkington scumread would've been enough to at least make sure he gets lynched

eventually

, which would still win town the game as long as Jingle isn't allowed to fuck with the setup too much to make the results useless. At the very least, there's a realistic and obvious paper trail that town paying attention should be able to pick up on in this scenario which doesn't exist in a game where A50 doesn't die (and assuming I'm killed N2, which is blatantly the best scum play in that scenario).

[Porkens]

I'm glad y'all got my mislynch out of the way. I really liked the the cop gifs throughout.

My reads were carp as usual after about page 10.

[Ankamius]

Oh I should probably respond to this too:

Ank didn't die because that was as good as hanging a sign around gork's neck reading "LYNCH HERE!" Additionally, I was fairly confident in my ability to get the townread from her. SGBA on the other hand was no longer providing and background noise I could hide behind, tn can be a scary fuck, and 23 people is a lot of eyes that could choose to take a look at the thread and screw me. Of course, only like 4 of the people in the hydra were likely to do so, but...

I tend to get nightkilled very fast when I have influence for damn good reason.

The town was still dysfunctional enough that it wasn't guaranteed that Gork-slot would've been pushed down. It should be clear that was the case just by how incredibly hard it was for me to get my townreads to join the wagon. I lgot Nosferatu to join pretty easily, but literally everyone else I was appealing to either wasn't interested at all or just "...meh, I guess" hopped their way over to it.

And that's from direct appeals to people who were already scumreading Almost50

.

How the hell would anyone get Titus to follow them onto Gork? Or Mark? Gork by that point was a reasonably strong scumread, so even everyone else who could be convinced over would probably take some convincing to hop on over.

It's far more likely that town would've found tunnels on each other, or gone back to that dichotomy between Nosferatu and Titus (except without me there to shout both of them down a second time), or... really just about anything other than being coordinated enough to push down Gorkington.

And as for me... I would've caught you eventually no matter what happened just by how I gamesolve

I gamesolve by putting pieces together from various clues around the gamestate and trying to push things that have the highest scum equity but also the highest information equity. My read strength actually is mostly irrelevant, I only need one correct scumread at a time, as long as I'm seeing that scumread as the best one to push.

That's why my eddie scumread actually wasn't a bad thing at all despite being wrong: I had an accurate enough view of the gamestate that I would eventually hit the correct answer and be confident in it. That's mostly what happened with the Titus nightkill; if I hadn't locked onto a shiny object (Nosferatu)... I probably would have caught you day 4 even without the mechanical guilties, it just would have taken longer. :/

Plus I'm well aware of my blind spot towards being townread, so that wouldn't have worked

[Ankamius]

BUT

it's good to FINALLY know how my playstyle works out when I'm this engaged for so long

I get nightkilled immediately whenever I'm on track for that every single time and it's actually kind of aggravating at times.

[mhsmith0]

fwiw I think ank dying n2 is more of "oh she powerlynched a50 so of course she dies" as opposed to "let's all trust that her other reads were necessarily correct" but idk everyone here well enough to say for sure *shrugs*

[Ankamius]

Pun would've sheeped me most likely

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Nos

Everyone else... nah

[Jingle]

I think a warn then ban/freplace Yeah

Some countries don’t have the issue with that word. It’s kinda only an American custom to block it.

There is literally no word that is universally offensive. The closest would be the n word, but even then, contextually there are situations where it is used unoffensively.

Correct response to this, imo, would be for the person taking offense at the word to say that they are taking offense, and your suggested course of action if/when the player continues to ignore the request to not use the language.

Of course, it's different if the word is intended as a slur or being used to bully someone, or even if the board/forum/venue has rules/standards against offensive language, but that was clearly not the case here. N_M's original post may have been in poor taste, but the response was disproportionate, and he didn't continue using the word after being asked to stop, so... :shrug:

Not even worth a warning, imo.

Oh. And I outright lied about my tell on Mulch being an Elli tell. We did discuss his play briefly in the modchat, but I compiled my reasoning there all on my own. The thing that he did that made him locktown in this game, FWIW, is agree to drop his plan to outpost the hydra early. Mulch thinks that spamposting to demoralize town is a good scum strategy, and he had a legitimate excuse to do so. Letting that drop in order to work with a townread and let said townread pull together other players was possibly the most town thing he could possibly do, when one considers that he had absolutely no pressure to do so other than a single request and no reason to believe it would make townJingle certain he was town.

Isn't this kind of thing the essence of what a real Elli tell is?

As I understand it, yes. However, the key here is that it didn't come from Elli but rather from me. I don't use a computer, so I have a very small list of players I can read this way. It usually takes me between 2 and 20 man hours and at least 5 completed games in a shortish timeframe to come up with something reliable by hand, depending on the player in question. The lie was the heavy implication that the tell came from Elli, which in turn gave me the option to keep the tell secret and then turn around and doubt myself in the late game should it become necessary.

I actually wouldn't take tells from Elli if I was offered, because figuring them out is half the fun for me. I like to get into people's heads and figure out why they act the way they do. It's why my favorite role in a mafia game is actually moderator.

[Jingle]

No objections to outing the scum thread here, btw.

Dunno if that actually helps, but I don't think anyone would care about letting it go public.

[Ellibereth]

As I understand it, yes. However, the key here is that it didn't come from Elli but rather from me. I don't use a computer, so I have a very small list of players I can read this way. It usually takes me between 2 and 20 man hours and at least 5 completed games in a shortish timeframe to come up with something reliable by hand, depending on the player in question. The lie was the heavy implication that the tell came from Elli, which in turn gave me the option to keep the tell secret and then turn around and doubt myself in the late game should it become necessary.

The funny part is that we actually did talk about this exact tell in the team mafia mod discord. :p

[Jingle]

We did?