NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[davesaz]

Oh wow, nice flavor, worth the wait!

VOTE: brassherald
Put that trumpet away, you'll wake the baby!

[davesaz]

I kinda like the effort to make content from both of them.
Liking it doesn't mean I find it AI, any alignment can feel a need to make content happen.

[davesaz]

Slight TR on Rask, though his usage of reaction results is offbase.
My post acknowledged there were a couple reaction tests in play without actually reacting to them. That's NAI, especially from me, though Rask has too little exposure to me to know it.

The actual LAMIST posts here are from Profii. Town should think a no-lynch RVS vote is NAI or a reaction test. I give Profii scum points for going out of his way to paint NL as bad -- that position is so routine it goes without saying, so saying it tends to come from scum trying to look town.

@HWS re:119 -- no, the vote for no lynch is the reaction test.

TW sheeping Rask seemed a little sketchy but I know from recent completed games with TW that it's quite normal.

I kinda want to vote into the people voting Rask, but can't decide who I like the least there.

[davesaz]

Happy scumday Flubbernugget!
Did you mean not flailing?

HitAlt seems townier than what I'm used to. So does HeWhoSwims.

[davesaz]

Enough time has passed that I can't be sure if it's a true memory, but I think I've incorrectly scumread Dramonic before for posting like this.

[davesaz]

I haven't seen enough Flubber to have a read there.
(Generally I haven't seen enough of most of the player list to have a read -- my style is to read far more than write if you don't already know that)

[davesaz]

Pursuing it isn't the best approach either.

@MoI re 244 -- your Flubber case seems to rest on a single post, am I reading that right?

[davesaz]

As a rule of thumb, voting someone over one tell is a bad idea

Disagree heartily. I'd agree with lynching someone over one tell can be a bad idea, but even that is situational. Certain contexts it's absolutely the right thing to do.

[davesaz]

and I haven't see good reasons as to why my read on profli is wrong.

The way I understand your profii case, it's strictly because "no-lynching is not anti-wincon". Is this correct?
If it is correct, I absolutely think this reasoning is wrong. No-lynching D1 absolutely is anti-wincon (for town).
If there is something more to it, you have not explained what the something more is, and doing so might help.

[davesaz]

I’m sorry I don’t just assume things. There was nothing wrong with asking profli to clarify

This I actually agree with. I saw profii's post and did read it as "the content provided" not just "now that there is content", but I didn't see anything in Rask's posts that was

obv

town.

[davesaz]

Read up to page 11.

All this "liar"talk gives me a feeling that Gustavo is being a pedant wrt inferno. I will have to confirm via iso eventually

The case on me is weak sauce. Something about coasting being scummy but not willing to call scum over it. As a rule of thumb, voting someone over one tell is a bad idea

What do you mean by “Pedant?”
I wouldn’t say voting on one tell is a bad idea, but I’d argue that your “coasting” is NAI.

I'd guess that he means exactly what the dictionary says.

[davesaz]

Thanks.

I was scum reading you when I voted you. Idk how to put it but your early posts all seem so fake to me. Like you are trying to appear town and it doesn’t come off as genuine.

Please quote and analyze.

[davesaz]

Someone posts an opinion about what they think you were thinking. They can be wrong, but it cannot be a lie.

[davesaz]

So I was reading back through looking to generate discussion and found this:

I kinda like the effort to make content from both of them.
Liking it doesn't mean I find it AI, any alignment can feel a need to make content happen.

This is really non-commital. The thought pattern feels off too. Thoughts?

Two people did things that I saw as reaction tests to end RVS.
That is a good thing.
I don't think that doing it is AI.

Does this help you understand what I said?

[davesaz]

Davesaz

– Any reason you just ignored the question in 319?

Probably lack of time when I read it.

[davesaz]

@MoI re 244 -- your Flubber case seems to rest on a single post, am I reading that right?

Yes. My "case" (which really isn't a case but an observation of an actual scummy post in the first 24 hours of the game) rests on that post.

Do you have an issue with that?

Also why are you still voting brass which was an RVS vote?

I might have an issue with it or might not. It would depend on whether I agree it's scummy, coming from Flubber, or at least see a reason that you might.

Some people move their votes around a lot, other people don't.

[davesaz]

So I was reading back through looking to generate discussion and found this:

I kinda like the effort to make content from both of them.
Liking it doesn't mean I find it AI, any alignment can feel a need to make content happen.

This is really non-commital. The thought pattern feels off too. Thoughts?

Two people did things that I saw as reaction tests to end RVS.
That is a good thing.
I don't think that doing it is AI.

Does this help you understand what I said?

I guess.
What I don't understnad is why you would say that you liked something and then come right back around and say "ehhh but it doesn't ffect my read at all because it's NAI." It seems weird.

Saying I like it without qualification would likely be taken to mean that I think it's town, which is not the case. My #1 goal as town is accuracy in communicating where I am on things.

[davesaz]

I don't think rask has done anything shady but would still entertain him as scum coasting

I’m disappointed none of the rest of you saw the scumminess in 180. Rask coasting as scum in the first 24 hours the game is open? And hedging on Rask ( he’s not scum for this but could be scum for this other thing ) at the same time?

I would expect that if we looked at all the places people hedge, the result would be that town do it more often than scum. (Flubber's null for me, I haven't re-read him yet)
But I do understand there are people who think that way. And if you had something else like meta as a component of the read that would be helpful.

For me it would be more revealing when coupled with other things than as a standalone event.

[davesaz]

Does anyone believe for a second that any player can be “coasting” less than 24 hours into the start of a game? Or that a Town Flubber would make that the tentpole of why Rask would be scummy.

If it were a suspicion worthy of conviction I would have voted there.

IMO this sidesteps the actual question. I looked through your ISO to see what came out of 180, if anything.
You floated the idea of coasting. Is there something you can share with us that indicates that Rask's activity during that period was somehow out of line with the norm? If not, what's the point of bringing it up at all?

[davesaz]

I think brassherald is town for now.
UNVOTE:
I'm not going to give Gustavo's replacement a complete pass. I had seen some clear scum indications there, was trying to give things a chance to de-escalate.
Gonna need to go back over some stuff to get more reads.

[davesaz]

Actually elbirn kinda did though he dropped it

What have I done? I'm having difficulty parsing your posts and I don't know if it's just me or idk

I think this was referring to 84. (hope I remembered that number right lol)

[davesaz]

I just answered that in 459.

[davesaz]

Yes, I would.
Some experience.
I'd say that I rarely if ever obvtown people, and usually don't take other people's word for it.

[davesaz]

I also don't think 482 is a town post, but, again, I can't quite put my finger on why.

Time travel?

[davesaz]

I flat out disagree with 472, there are clear "you guys are scumreading me for the wrong reason" tells in Gustavo's posting.
I'm concerned that Skygazer wagon seems too easy. I agree that there isn't any obvious town motivation in that ISO.

[davesaz]

The majority of the votes in this game have had words around them but are effectively naked votes

That's a nice observation but what does it mean to you?

[davesaz]

The majority of the votes in this game have had words around them but are effectively naked votes

That's a nice observation but what does it mean to you?

It means this game is likely a town loss.

Why does it matter what it means to me?

Why can I say something like that and have the town take a minimal note of it and continue to play as they were?

Why are you challenging me on this instead of taking action on how unacceptable it is?

I kinda thought you might have specific votes in mind.
Sometimes a relatively naked vote does have reasoning if you bother to pay attention to context. Other times it's just naked.
I'm asking you about it because you pointing it out and doing nothing yourself about it sets up all kinds of people to be the 2nd/3rd to push, like scum often prefer.
You asking why I'm not doing anything about it is helpful, because it does show you're having a similar thought process at least on this point.
Why I haven't yet done anything is a function of available time, which you seem to have already guessed, plus wanting to see how you responded to the question.

[davesaz]

Davesaz - I totally get being more observant than talkative, but every time he posts, nothing really changes. There's lots of questions in his iso, but a lot of it boils down to minute clarifications that don't really read into motivations. A lot of his commentary is "I agree with this point or that point" but it's again looking through the forest ignorant of the trees.

Out of respect for Pine I'm gonna say this more quietly than I normally do.
When I say I haven't had time, that's a statement about RL, and I absolutely never lie about it.

[davesaz]

I wrote 545 and literally closed the lid on my laptop and went to a meeting right after hitting submit.

[davesaz]

I wasn't really satisfied to dave's answer in 459 and his response to t_w's question in 471 is also unsatisfying. He doesn't explain why he would be satisfied with that answer, it's just a straight matter-of-fact yes which kind of pings me. It reads like he doesn't even want to clarify his point. Also 85 seems like safe fence-sitting fluff but that's been pointed out and it was so long ago.

It's a straight up admission of self meta.
I don't vote.
I don't take stands until I actually have a stand to take.
That's how I am.

[davesaz]

I don't think it's true that my ISO is naked, I have definitely given content.

Don't think I stated this explicitly but my issue with Flubber was the thing MOI pointed out: the point on Rask being scum coasting made no sense that early.

VOTE: Skygazer is a good wagon.

Why do you talk about one person but vote another here? And then no followup beyond that point?

[davesaz]

1) I'm counting this post as a strike against you on the grounds of PT slipping

It's usually a good plan to read the rules -- did you?

[davesaz]

That post was literally a few hours ago. I already gave thoughts on sky.

You may want to review your ISO and answer that question again.

[davesaz]

You're going to maintain the assertion that you've given thoughts on Sky?

[davesaz]

davesaz. Another person who needs to be around more. Had an early townread for something I don't really remember but that's not gonna incubate well in isolation. Anywho, like, what do you think of HitAlt? HeWhoSwims?

Sample size for HitAlt is too small to make a decent read. The post where he calls a scumteam is sketchy and it's not just because I'm one of the team he called.
Vague memory that HWS was a weak townread but I'd need to re-read to be sure.

[davesaz]

replace out

I'm too hot blooded and in this specific situation I'm unwilling to fuck up the atmosphere.
After my replacement flips town please examine your head.

[davesaz]

cancel replace

[davesaz]

I'm gonna give you some self-meta, calmly and relatively gently.
It represents RL information and consequently is the truth.

I play as myself. This is not a persona, no mask, no fake outrage or ignorance, nada. It's actually unfiltered me.
I don't jump to conclusions. Jumping to conclusions can cause serious damage. I do make intuitive leaps but I don't put things on the line based on mere intuition.
I don't make stuff up -- no fake claims or fake results from me. I may occasionally exaggerate to make a point but I won't go all-out on said exaggeration.
If you're innocent I'm the guy you want on your jury. The facts have to make sense before I'll vote guilty.
If you're the prosecutor on a guilty defendant and at least minimally competent, I'm the guy you want on your jury. If the facts prove your case, I won't allow the guilty to walk.

When I'm scum and thus forced to lie, I'm painfully bad at lying. The reason I play is to get better at it. And to get better at detecting lies from others.

There you go, the plain unvarnished truth about me. It really upsets me a lot that site meta pretty much forces people to scumread me for it. I'm the opposite of site meta -- being careful is being me, not being scummy.

[davesaz]

You're going to maintain the assertion that you've given thoughts on Sky?

VOTE: Skygazer

I feel like the description of raskol's NL vote as "LAMIST" is probably the scummiest thing in the thread so far.

Yes I will. The above still applies for me.

That's an acceptable answer, but not a strong one.
Have there been scummier things since? That post was a very long time ago. In your later post you didn't reflect any potential changes in Skygazer which might either reinforce or soften the opinion.

I have an opinion about Skygazer. If I tell you what my opinion is before I trust your opinion, I'll give you information you can use to make your opinion match mine. Since I know my alignment is town and don't know yours, it plays to my wincon to challenge your opinion to see if it's well-founded or not.

[davesaz]

That's a misrepresentation of what I said.
What I said is that one of the reasons I play mafia at all is that I'm bad at lying. (the other being that I'm damn good at solving logic puzzles, if people were just acting a little more logical)

[davesaz]

Suggesting that I'm less than genuine is a good way to really piss me off. That was one of the other points of the post.

[davesaz]

There is absolutely nothing tangential about it.
I'm flat out saying that I don't have an opinion yet.

[davesaz]

Firm opinion...

[davesaz]

replace out -- mean it this time

I'm done with mafia.

[davesaz]

That's strictly a health thing btw. Sorry Pine, I'm old and I don't like the physical effects of raging any more.

[davesaz]

Several of the people who drove me out of this game were scum. Interesting...
When someone doesn't have an opinion and they say they don't have an opinion, typically they're town.

[davesaz]

Was it disapproved, or failure to approve? If it were me modding, silence is approval.