Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

That last line is CTD's, dropped a quote tag there.

[Yosarian2]

Wow, we must be trying to give this game up. Sorry I didn't get to post till now, I had to prep a presentation for a research group meeting here at the university.

Yeah, apparently.

It's also interesting that now, one day before deadline and with everyone lurking, you're trying to attack me, when no one else is. The only people who want a no-lynch right now are the mafia members, and it seems like your actions are likely to cause a no-lynch, which makes me wonder if the mafia is you and rougeban together.

What I meant was keeping your vote on Rogueben was safe up till you were forced to switch your vote to Shteven. You weren't actively pursuing someone you thought to be scum in such a way that you might draw too much attention to yourself.

I wasn't "actevly persuing someone I thought to be scum"? What does that mean? Of course I was

My logic for everything I did yesterday was completly 100% clear, and I think everything I did was the correct pro-town thing for me to do in the situation, ESPECALLY my "Shteven vote switch" and my "not wanting the day to end with a no-lynch". If you want to question my logic for anything I did, please do so. This argument you're using now is compete crap, some vauge garbage about "the tone of my posts" and some horribly WIFOM BS about me being scum because my actions were "defendable". Of course my actions were "defendable", BECAUSE THEY WERE THE CORRECT PRO-TOWN ACTIONS.

This is a fine sounding argument, but it's completely bogus. The correct protown thing to do is to make a reasoned case against another player.. YOU NEVER DID THAT. You eliminated certain people based on a mathematical analysis, which is fine, but then you moved your vote around on Rogueben and Shteven without EVER making any case against them based on their play.[/quote]

(shrug) I've suspected Yogurt for much of the game, based on his play. And yes, I eliminsted many people, but no, it was not just "based on a mathmatical analysis", it was also based on people's play, which made me think certain players were pro-town.

My point is, if you are the SK you can't actively lead a charge against someone you find scummy, because if the lynch fails and they

were

scum, your likelihood for being Night killed goes up (or at least, the scum would have you higher on their probable night kill list).

If you really want to claim that, I'll point out that the one time I won as SK, I attacked scum non-stop and got them both lynched myself. viewtopic.php?t=2049&start=0 SK's want to lynch scum, ESPECALLY yesterday and today.

That actually makes me re-evaluate MBL a bit; his lurking, 1 lne post, then back to lurking, this close to a deadline, makes me wonder if he's mafia instead of SK; a SK would want to lynch scum at this point.

Your logic for me being SK is rather drawn out and absurd, btw, based as it is primarally on the Kinetic kill last night. Like I said, all that shows is that the SK thought Kinetic was probably scum; if the SK could have killed scum last night, he'd be in a much better position right now.

Anyway, with 1 day until deadline, why would you spend so much time going after me if you don't even think I'm the lynch for today? If you think Rougeban is the lynch, why didn't you spend that ten million word post laying out a case against him instead?

[Yosarian2]

I just stated that I was not interested in lynching you today.

Yeah; I started to respond to your post before I read the whole thing, which was my mistake. It did seem a bit wierd that you're spending so much time on this, now, instead of pushing against the perosn you've said should be lynched to day, but, eh, whatever. At least you're posting.

I find it "interesting" that you've not posted since Saturday when specifically asked something by CTD

Um, I posted, because you posted content. Before attacked ,eI was the last person to post content in the thread. (MBL's one line post is not content, obv). What am I supposed to do, respond to myself? If no one else is interested in playing, there's shit-all I can do on my own. If anyone in the game had posted any kind of content, I would have responded, probably within a few hours, no matter if it was attacking me or not.

and consisted of a pretty lame attempt at just stating you'd be happy lynching RB and MBL (of all people - who you haven't really had anything bad to say about all game long, really).

Eh? I've thought he was a likely SK suspect for a while. That useless one-line post he made, followed by 3 more days of lurking, right before a deadline, are also making me wonder if he could be mafia as well; I know I had thought that unlikely before, but only a mafia would want a no-lynch now, and his actions seem to be encouraging that.


[qupte]I'm getting frustrated here. We need a lynch, and a correct one at that. I think the best bet is Rogueben. I'd have liked to hear something from other players before putting a vote down; I'd rather have a real consensus lynch at this point in the game, but screw it.

Vote: Rogueben

.[/quote]

(nods) All right. What's the votecount now? How many more do we need?

[Yosarian2]

Did you just replace someone, Lee? If so, who?

[Yosarian2]

Oh God...is this game still alive?

[Yosarian2]

I voted Yos cause my gut MASSIVELY tells me he is some flavor of scum in this game. He's a little too snarky for Yos and not playing to win as town.

I certanly am playing to win for the town. You, however, voted me right before the deadline, in a situation where it was pretty clear I was not going to be lynched by deadline because there were only about 3 of us actually even attempting to play the game, and where a no-lynch would be really, really bad for the town. If anyone is "not playing to win for the town" here, it's you.

[Yosarian2]

Can we please either just lynch someone, or declare this game abandoned and give up on it?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, I thought I was voting Rougeban.

I'll wait a bit now before re-voting him, though; if we're going to try and play this game, might as well hear from someone else before putting him back at lynch -1.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting that almost everyone supports the Rougeban lynch at the moment. I wonder who his scum buddy is. I'm starting to think that I may have been wrong about MBL, and that he's more likely to be mafia then SK; he keeps attacking me while not even commenting recently on the fact that, well, everyone else seems to think Rougeban is scum, and he tried to force a no-lynch right before the deadline, which looks like a pro-mafia move to me.

[Yosarian2]

This is SO weak. So your hypothesis is that I, brilliant scum godfather mastermind, have decided to tie a noose around my neck and attach the other end of the rope to the rapidly sinking Rogueben? Despite all the other evidence in the game that points to me NOT being scum?

Um, we thought there was a deadline. We didn't know it would be delayed until after it was past. And if there had been a no-lynch, the mafia might have been in basically an unbeatable position tommorow, especally if you managed to take out the SK tonight. On the other hand, if one scum got lynched, then it'd be a 1 mafia-1 scum-some number of townies situation, and that's not a good place for scum to be. So, yeah, I think there's a very good chance you, the brilliant scum godfather mastermind, would be willing to take some fairly large risks in order to save your scumbuddy at that stage.

[Yosarian2]

he keeps attacking me while not even commenting recently on the fact that, well, everyone else seems to think Rougeban is scum

What's wrong with attacking you and only you? Because Rogueben's truly scum and you want me to look bad if/when he comes up scum?

Calling Yos+RB as the scumteam.

What's wrong with not at all commenting on the only significant bandwagon in a game when you post right before the deadline? Gee, let's think about this for a bit.

[Yosarian2]

Nice try to play semantic games there. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the point of that first sentance was to point out that your play right before the deadline is EXACTALLY what I would expect from you if you were scum with Rougeban, therefore pointing out the obveous flaw in your lame WIFOM defense.

Your defense was basically "But I wouldn't do that if I was the scum godfather and I was scum with rogueban, because I wouldn't want to connect myself with rougeban there by not voting for him!", and that sentance was just me pointing that in fact, if you were scum with Rougeban, you would probably try to cause a no-lynch rather then bus your scumbuddy in that situation, because if there's a no today, then the mafia would be in a MUCH stronger position tonight and tommorow night vis a vis the SK and the town then if one of the scum gets lynched today.

And rather then respond to my actual point, you try to attack apart my post by pretending you don't understand the difference between the theoretical scenerio I was explaining in the first paragraph in order to shoot down your defense (albiet a highly likely theory), and the conclusion I came to in the second paragraph. Yeah, that's just not going to fly here, buddy.

[Yosarian2]

Have you ever seen me play the WIFOM game as scum, Yos?

Lol...that's about the worst WIFOM argument I've ever heard, MBL.

All the arguments for me being town/SK this game are 100% WIFOM, and they're silly in my eyes.

Um, no, there's nothing WIFOM about me thinking "He appears to have tried to cause a no-lynch, a no-lynch would only help the mafia, therefore he's probably mafia". Nothing WIFOM at all about that argument. Now, your DEFENSE was very WIFOMish.

You just don't feel like protown Yos. Prove me wrong.

[Yosarian2]

First of all, I really don't like this Rogueben wagon. TS and Fonz came into the game and immediately went after him. Yos and Twilight have been Anti-Rogueben for a while (or forever, in BT's case). MBL has pushed it the least, mostly because he's preferred to gun at other people (Yos and BT), but he's had a change of mind apparently and now thinks Yos and RB are scum together. So basically, everyone hates RB.

At least

one of these people is team-scum.

Note, howver, that MBL is now suggesting RB is scum, but seems totally uninterested in any kind of wagon on him, AND avoided his wagon right before deadline not long ago.

I'm pretty sure MBL and RB are scum together. No way to know which is the Godfather and which is the other scum, since neither have been investigated, and it dosn't really matter at this point anyway.

vote:rougeben

[Yosarian2]

I haven't played a scumhunting game? I'm becoming more and more convinced that I've found two bad guys in you and in rougeban, and if I'm right about that, I've played a pretty good scumhunting game I think.

That's as bad as your "the scum must be good, Yosarian must be good, therefore Yosarian is scum" argument. Which was especally amusing as you're probably at least as good at being scum then I am, if not better.

[Yosarian2]

Yos decision to vote Rogueben when he did is difficult for me to interpret. It fell right after TS decided to join with MBL in voting Yos, leaving both Yos and RB tied in vote count. I have a feeling that Yos was scared things would go against him, and tried to get the vote moved back towards RB. I still have Yos high on my SK list, but this action could conceivably be done by town or scum. I think that if the RB wagon sputters out we are going to lynch Yos.

Eh. Like I said earlier, only reason I waited to re-vote Rougeben was because I wanted to give the replacements a chance to get a word in before I voted him, and nothing anyone said changed my mind about him being scum. The only thing that's changed is that MBL looks even scummier to me then he did before, but that's in large part because of a possible link to Rougeben.

[Yosarian2]

And hey, glancing over, I find it unlikely that both yos and rogueben are mafia.

Just quoting this to save for later, so I can repeat it back to you tommorow after we lynch rougeban today and he comes up as mafia.

[Yosarian2]

Don't be subtle yos, you're bad at it. If you want to say something, come out and say it, but nobody will buy thinly veiled attacks at this stage in the game.

Um, pretty sure that was about the least subtle thing I've said in a while, Simenon. I just meant exactally what I said, that I'm confident Rougeben is scum.

Anyway, care to explain exactally why you think I'm scum?

[Yosarian2]

No, my tone has more to do with the fact that we should have lynched someone and moved on like 2 MONTHS ago, and it's just annoying.

As to why I said that comment, I'm pretty much just running out of way to say "Rougeban has to be scum, for the love of God could we please just lynch him already".

[Yosarian2]

cause i'm not scum here.

So, your stratagy this game is just keep repeating you're not scum and hope that convinces everyone, huh?

[Yosarian2]

cause i'm not scum here.

So, your stratagy this game is just keep repeating you're not scum and hope that convinces everyone, huh?

You're not always this tedious. And I've never been in a game with Yos-scum. Now I'm pretty sure I know what it looks like.

This game is tedious. I am pro-town. Your continued attemps at argument by repetition are noted, in this case just trying to repeat over and over again that I'm scum when you're pretty obveously full of it.

And yeah, if you keep repeating the same crap over and over again, I'll keep responding to it in the same way. Sorry if you find that "tedious".

[Yosarian2]

Um...that post is a bit confusing, Simenon...who are all those quotes from?

If you find it suspicious that I distrusted Glork early in the game, eh, I guess that's understandable. Glork just didn't seem to be to be quite acting like his normal pro-town-ish self, especally his early behavior towards Battle Mage, who I thought was pretty obveously pro-town from pretty early on day 1, and his somewhat wierd behavior towards Guardian.

[Yosarian2]

1) His entry to the game, June 5. Posting stream of consciousness.
a) question to Albert, no conclusion
b) don't like Glork's post about nightchoice speculation
c) bit of a kissup to BM, fos glork for bad manners
d) defending BM but "we shouldnt ignore bm" (too obvious a statement?)
e) "dont like the bm wagon "gliding along"
f) agrees with jack, attacks glork
g) conclusion: vote glork fos albert (COP, TOWN)

(shrug) So, I was right about BM being town, and you just said Glork was acting in a scummy manner on day 1.

Really, if I was scum here, do you really think that my stratagy would have been to buddy up with BM and pick a fight with Glork? Does that make any sense to you?

2) interactions the next day
a) coddles BM, attacks guardian,
b) jack is "the opposite of jackscum" (little weird, could be stretching for a reason to trust a good scumpartner)

...it's wierd to try to metagame people and see how they act as scum compared to how they act as town? I've seen Jack as scum at least twice, once as my partner and once in a game I was modding, and he was acting quite differently this game.

c) glork is better but still on list of suspects (awkward, how could he clear glork after two days in the game and on D1?) says he'll justify his anti-glork sentiments from earlier soon. (very weird)

Eh? What's wierd about that? You agree with me that he was looking scummy day 1; he was looking a little better day 2, but was still on my list of suspects because of his day 1 actions.

d) says guardian's "done things that look like scumtells"
e) jumps to albert for carefree wagoning
f) "I could see connections between any of my top 3-4 suspects and I'm sure they're not all scum together." WHY NOT, LOL? another weird statement... are two known scumpartners? YB asks "who ARE your top 3-4, Yos replies: "Albert, Guardian, Glork and you." says he's "confused now." (sounds phony)
g) Yos's #24, awkward response to glork

Nothing awkward about it at all. I went into a great amount of detail about the possible connections I saw between the people that I considered scummy (and note that, dispite your bizzare next comment, Yogurt was, in fact, on that list). I had noted several things. Note that if you read that list, some of the things contradict each other, in such a way that they could not possibly ALL be true; however, they were a number of different possible links I had noted.

4) tells MoS that BM is "making a lot of sense". this is the first such occurence in the history of Mafiascum.

He did make a lot of sense. Did you actually read BM's posts? He played a much stronger pro-town game then I've seen from him in the past, and did it in such a way that I was almost postive he was pro-town. I was so sure of this that, as you can see, I actually based a lot of my other day 1 reasoning on that.

6) AFTER A 6 DAY ABSENCE: "I was suspicious of Yogurt 5 pages ago." Reread his two weeks in the game... Yogurt hasn't been anywhere NEAR Yos's focus, then after a quick reread:

Yogurt was always one of my main suspects, as you yourself noted above in my list of "connections between my main suspects". Yes, Albert and, at times, Glork were higher on the list, but Yogurt was always up there as well; once those two were ruled out as scum (Albert by being lynched and showing up as a townie, and Glork with his strong claim) Yogurt was left at the top of the list.

"I actually DID reread most of that before... I like Billy's case against Yogurt, but I still think Albert is higher on my personal list of suspicion."

So Yos forgot his earlier suspicions and latched onto Billy's case in his mind. Possibly because Yos doesn't have true suspicions?

Since you just did a re-read of my posts, you should KNOW that that was not true. Did you see who I listed as my main suspects day 1? Albert, Yogurt, Glork, and Guardian. Yogurt was the only one of the 4 who was left as a viable suspect at that point. So, yes, I was always suspicious of Yogurt. I've been suspicious of him all game.

[Yosarian2]

Can we just lynch rougeban and win this game?

[Yosarian2]

If we lynch RB and he's mafia, we're a loooong way from winning... or are you implying that lynching non-mafia will bring you VERY close to winning as the mafia GF?

You just keep beating that same drum, don't you? You really think that's going to help you at this point?

If we lynch RB and he's mafia, which he pretty much has to be, I think we've got a good chance, because I think it's fairly obveous that you're either the SK or the last scum at that point (I think there's a pretty high chance you're linked to RB, personally), and whichever one you are, the other one will probably kill you tonight, putting us in pretty decent shape tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, sorry, Billy, I had forgotten you had asked me a question. You wanted to know what I thought about the laster incarnations of Jack, right?

White: Very, very active, for one, until he vanished; in the few weeks he was here, he posted 52 times. And most of those posts had a lot of content in them. He correclty opposed the Shteven wagon, and suspected MBL. In general, looks pretty pro-town to me.

Toaster Studel: Let me preface this by saying that in the past two games I played with her, we were both pro-town, and she for little apparent reason suddenly became convinced I was scum, latched on to me, invented elaborate and improbable conspiricy theories about why I was scum with the other people she suspected, and stubbornly attacked me until one of us was dead. It's quite frustrating. That being said, considering that, her play in this game looks a lit like the last two times I saw her as a pro-town player, and while she was wrong about me, I entierly agree with her other two suspects, Rougeben and MBL.

So, even looking beyond Jack, I tend to think Simenon is probably pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

Awesome. I knew I was right about Rougeban. And now, we have 2 lynches left to find the godfather.

At the moment, I'm definatly suspicious of MBL; I really feel like he was trying to avoid a rougeban lynch yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

vote:MBL

[Yosarian2]

wrong. who's your second pick?

Look. At deadline, it was 3 votes for a deadline lynch.

10 minutes before the deadline yesterday, at 2:50 in the morning when you probably knew no one else online, you posted that "we need to lynch someone" but did not do it yourself. You could have, at that moment, lynched either Rougeban or Simenon by just changing your vote; they both had 2 votes on them, and it was only 3 for a deadline lynch. Instead, you chose to do nothing and allow a no-lynch to happen. That really makes me think you're scum, especally since we now know Rougeban was mafia; I can't imagine why a townie wouldn't have lynched someone at that point rather then seen a no lynch. Yeah, we got lucky with a no-lynch there, but it was still a terrible move.

[Yosarian2]

I don't know about that, MBL. I could see a mafia member scum in that situation thinking a no-lynch gives you better odds then lynching simenon, especally if you thought simenon was town. I can't see a pro-town person thinking that a no-lynch there was a good idea.

[Yosarian2]

That dosn't at all answer my question, MBL.

You clearly did choose to no-lynch at the end of the day yesterday; you posted 10 minutes before deadline, it was 3 in the morning, and no one else was on. You could have chosen to end the day in a lynch by simply moving your vote to either Simeoon or Rougeban, and yet you did not. Why?

You keep dancing around this issue, but you have yet to offer anything like a pro-town explination for your actions there. And as that's the second time yesterday it looks like you tried to get a no-lynch in a situation where a no-lynch was likely to help the mafia but not likely to help the town, I'm having trouble believing that it was not intentional.

[Yosarian2]

Near endgame, a mislynch is not better than just plain "getting a lynch". I didn't think RB was as likely to be scum as Yos, so I stuck to my guns. Oops.

In that sitation, that's just not true. The only way for the town to not be screwed in that situation would be either lynching scum, or hoping for crosskills. And in that situation, even a mislynch would be better then a no-lynch, because a mislynch (especally one on a player many consider scummy) dramatically increases the odds of the SK sucessfully killing a mafia member that night. So, no, even a mislynch is better then a no-lynch, and even a random lynch is actually pretty good since it's got a 3/7 chance of hitting some kind of bad guy. Random lynch>mislynch>no lynch.

The "your play was scummy" logic is just plain bad.

If I was scum, I could have had two shots at an SK instead of one.

Instead, I chose not to foment the lynch I didn't believe in, and I also chose not to lynch Simenon, who was scum's top pick as SK. I wanted Yos dead. (And I may have been wrong, not sure yet.)

I understand what you're saying, I suppose, but this argument would be more convincing if I could understand why you as pro-town would act this way. Did you really think, at that point, that you were going to succeed in getting me lynched?

[Yosarian2]

Sorry I've been quiet lately in this game. This game has just been dragging for so long I'm having trouble caring about it, but I'll try, especally since Thok was nice enough to replace into this game and read the whole ugly mess.

Also, for MBL to be scum you have to assume that either he
a. thought Simenon was SK, but didn't want to deadline lynching him
b. didn't think Simenon was SK, but decided to nightkill him rather than go hunting for the SK.
c. WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

That's probably the strongest argument for MBL being town that I've heard. (I know, he made a similar argument, but he sounded SO SCUMMY saying it, heh).

unvote

.

Let me take a minute and try to re-aquaint myself with the game here, and I'll see what I can figure out.

[Yosarian2]

Eh...we went through this earlier in the game. He could easily have pre-submitted it, or else his scumbuddy sent it in because he was out of town. I know most mods aren't all that picky about only taking nightkills from scum godfathers.

Anyway, re-reading BillyTwilight, he seems very unlikely to be scum, unless he decided to bus YogurtBandit from the very start of the game, and his attacks on YB don't really feel like that.

I'd also say that just based on today, Thok feels unlikely to be scum; if he was scum, then trying to rule out both me and MBL seems like a really bad idea when the town has 2 chances left to lynch scum.

[Yosarian2]

Right. Especally in this situation, where the last scum needs two mislynches in a row in order to win, the scum does not want to clear multiple people. It's a very good question, and everyone should answer it.

Also, Billy, could you explain in a little more detail why you are so sure Fonz is innocent? Your explination confused me a bit.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I'd still like your answer on why you pulled your unvote for MBL based on what Thok said, considering it was essentially the same defense that MBL had given all day.

Eh, it was a similar defense. I guess the big difference is that MBL's defense kept sounding to me like a scummy WIFOM "I wouldn't have acted like that if I was scum" defense, and I tend to disreguard those, whereas Thok pointed out a logical reason why MBL-scum wouldn't really want to act like that no matter what.

[Yosarian2]

Though can you see any reason why a

town

MBL would possibly act like that?

Well, he shouldn't. I was so frustrated when I came back and saw the game had gone to night without a lynch.

That being said, the key thing is that while I can see why MBLscum might want a no-lynch, I can't see why he would choose to not lynch Stheven but then kill him afterwards; it seems like lynching him and then killing someone else would be strictly better for a scumMBL there, wouldn't it?

[Yosarian2]

Furthermore, you had a very strong winning strategy had RB only moved his vote to Yos.

Ah yes, I didn't even notice that:

Official Day Five Vote Count: #6

Rogueben – 2 – The Fonz, Yosarian2
Simenon – 2 – BillyTwilight, Rogueben
Yosarian2 – 2 – MrBuddyLee, Simenon

MrBuddyLee – 1 – CrashTextDummie

at deadline it takes

3

to lynch.

So my scumpartner RB and I decided not to collaborate on that lynch.

note: scum WINS THE GAME if they lynch a townie there, kill the SK overnight and don't get killed themselves.

That's an interesting point. Why didn't the scum hammer someone?

The most likely theory I can come up with is that the scum godfather really thought he was already voting for the SK, and so didn't want to move his vote and was hoping a townie would join him there; the only person that theory could apply to would be Billy Twilight look bad. Or else Fonz was scum, and he had decided to bus YB-Rougeban long ago and didn't feel like he could reasonably back away from that plan there at that point without looking scummy. It's possible MBL thought I was the SK and wanted to lynch me to prevent me from killing rougeban (which I pretty obv would have done if I was the SK), but that dosn't seem to fit with the fact that the scum Godfather killed Simeoon; if MBL was scum with rougeban, and he thought I was the SK, he would sure as heck kill me at night since I was quite suspicious of both him and Rougeban all day and would surely kill one of them that night if I was the SK.

I'm thinking the last scum is either Fonz or Billy at this point.

Edit by way of post: Hmm. CTD was lurking already; if he was scum, he probably wouldn't have been able to hammer before deadline. Ok, so that dosn't rule Thok out either.

[Yosarian2]

That's an interesting point. Why didn't the scum hammer someone?

Because you're the godfather?

(There's some amount of snark in that comment, but it is a plausible explanation for yesterday's voting.)

Eh? How so? If I was the other scum, then why wouldn't I have, a few days before dealine, said "Oh well, I guess I'm not going to get rougeban lynched today, don't want to risk a no-lynch here" and moved my vote over to Simoon instead?

[Yosarian2]

Eh? How so? If I was the other scum, then why wouldn't I have, a few days before dealine, said "Oh well, I guess I'm not going to get rougeban lynched today, don't want to risk a no-lynch here" and moved my vote over to Simoon instead?

I'm looking at this from the "Why didn't Rogueben move his vote" point of view, as opposed to the "Why didn't Yos2 move his vote" point of view. Granted, there's explanations for Rogueben's lack of another vote even if you are town.

Well, that's a fair question. Probably most likely is some combination of "he was convinced Simoon was the SK and therefore really wanted him dead" and "he realized moving his vote to me would be pretty obviously a scummy WIFOM move, likely causing other people to move their votes to him before deadline".

[Yosarian2]

Billy: Sorry if I haven't been paying as much attention to this game as I should. it just feels like everything that needs to be said has already been said so many times, it's frustraing; it just feels like this game should have been over a long, long time ago, and I'm having trouble caring as much about it as I usually do about mafia games.

That being said, I'm really thinking that Fonz is probably the last scum at this point. I also really don't anymore think MBL is the last scum.

Again, as I myself pointed out, Thok's defense of MBL was similar to what he already said, but something about the way he said it make me go back and take a look. And he's right; I could see scum-MBL choosing to no lynch, but I can't see him chooseing to not lynch Simoon and then killing Simoon that night. I just don't see that as making sense at this point. I suppose I was just frustrated about the insane no-lynch yesterday, nothing pissed me off so much as when the town just fails to lynch, especally since we had two different bad guys at just one vote short of a deadline lynch there; but after I calmed down and looked at it more dispassionatly, I saw that Thok was correct. And MBL's "I just couldn't bring myself to help Yos win" explination, while being poor play, is at least psycologically understandable.

[Yosarian2]

Ok.

If both me and you are town, Fonz, and MBL is town, then I'm not sure why he wasn't hammered when we were both voting for him for a while. That's not solid proof, the last scum could just being careful to avoid looking bad tommorow or I could be wrong about MBL, but it makes me think.

There's also a pretty significant process of elimination thing going on here; I've explained earlier today why I think most other people look pro-town; Thok's looked incredibly pro-town today, for reasons I explained earlier. I just can't see how MBL's actions yesterday make sense if he's scum, and BillyTwighlight can only be scum if he diecded to bus YB from the very start of day 1 and kept it up all game.

At this point, I'm still thinking it's probably either you or Billy just like I was earlier today, and I think you're a more likely suspect then Billy is.

[Yosarian2]

It does apply when you and Billy were both voting MBL, Fonz. THat's actually another reason I tend to think you're scum.

And no, we're not in a "hammer and the scum wins" situation here, but any scum could easily have finished off MBL early on without looking too suspicious, and it's interesting that they didn't; the most likely reason I can come up with for that is that either you're scum or MBL is scum.

And for the record, I think at this point of the game, with only five people left, process of elimination is one of the best ways to find scum. It's won me more games then any other late-game scum hunting technique I can think of. It's just easier to figure out who's town.

I've said enough times that I don't see how MBL's actions yesterday make sense if he's town. They make much more if he's scum, imho. If you really believe MBL's unwillingness to vote the goon is less likely to be a town position than my unwillingness to vote anyone but the goon, I'm really not sure what to say to you.

Nice misrepresentation there, btw. It's not MBL's unwillingness to vote the GOON that's a point in his favor, and it's rather absurd of you to pretend that's what the argument was. It's MBL's unwillingness to kill Simoon during the day, combined with the fact that the scum chose to kill Simoon at night, that I can't get around. If MBL is Godfather, can you think of ANY situation where "Lynch Simoon, kill someone else" wouldn't have been tactically better for him then "Lynch no one, kill Simoon"?

[Yosarian2]

All right, nothing else is really moving here, I might as well put my suspiciouns into vote form.

vote:The Fonz

[Yosarian2]

I think that's the most likely situation here, yeah.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, Fonz. You are right, your play in general yesteray was mostly helpful. Let me put it this way: If MBL isn't scum (and I don't think it's that likely right now), then who would your #2 suspect be?

[Yosarian2]

Heh. So basically, Fonz, your attacks on RB yesterady are supposed to be 100% proof that you're town, while my attacks on him yesterday don't prove anything, huh?

[Yosarian2]

I never said the first was evidence of you being scum. Of course it's not, inherently.

Basically, if I was right earlier that either you or billy twilight is scum, then the question really is, which looks more buslike; your attacks on RB yesterday, or Billy's attacks on Yogurt/RB for much of the game? That's what I've been trying to figure out. Attacking a scum is a point in your favor, but everyone has points in their favor now.

As for the third point, I wouldn't say he CAN"T be scum, but I think that that series of events (MBL allows a no-lynch to happen, then the scum kills simoon) dosn't make a lot of sense from a "MBL is scum" point of view. If he was scum, he'd obv. have been better off lynching Simoon then nightkilling someone else then by no-lynching then killing Simoon, no matter if Simoon was a SK or not. So basically, either he made a mistake as pro-town by no-lynching, or he made an even bigger mistake as scum by no-lynching, and I think the scum possibility there is somewhat less likely; I can see MBLtown making that mistake in that situation more easily then MBLscum.

And honestly, I just get kind of a bad feeling about you today. It seems like you're unwilling to re-consider your MBL position at all, or even to understand why someone might disagree with you, to the point where you're acting like disagreeing with you over this is some kind of scum-tell in and of itself. The whole vibe I'm getting from you today just feels like you're likely to be scum who's committed himself to a wagon that he can't afford to see fail, not like town who's considering all the possibilities.

Besides, your theory on me here, which is basically "Yos is probably scum who's hoping to get me lynched today and MBL lynched tommorow", just feels really scummy. First of all, it feels like you're trying to intimidate me and others to get on the wagon by implying that disagreeing with you here is itself a scumtell. You certanly seemed to think I was pro-town back when I was agreeing with you, after all. Secondly, it dosn't make a lot of sense in and of itself; if I was hoping to get MBL lynched tommorow, then why am I going after his most venement attacker today? If I get you lynched today, that actually dramatically lowers the odds of MBL being lynched tommorow. And finally, it kind of illustrates my point, the main reason I asked you that question, that from my point of view, by process of elimination, you're almost certanly scum, there really is almost no one else left who's likely scum at this point.

[Yosarian2]

And neither you nor MBL has presented a reasonable explanation of his no-lynch causing behaviour.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It feels like you're trying to link me to MBL, which is clearly impossible, or else that you're trying to attack me in order to undermine my defense of MBL and set me up for a mislynch tommorow after you get MBL mislynched today. Otherwise, I just don't see how you could logically be attacking me like this and still keeping your vote on MBL. Your play just dosn't feel pro-town at all here.

And obveously, it's not my job to explain MBL's actions. I'm not sure why you would expect me to "present an explination" for his behavior.

Right back at you now. I've got a horrible feeling about your play today. Thok comes in, and suspects me, and makes an argument in defence your number one suspect MBL, which there's no way you couldn't have seen yourself, and all of a sudden it's a compelling argument for his innocence, and process of elimination means I

have

to be scum.

Well, yeah. Thok's argument was quite strong. And if MBL is town, then yeah, you pretty much have to be scum.

And, also, the notion that I'm not considering other possibilities- I just stated a fairly strong suspicion of you. I find it deeply scummy that you earlier claimed 'scum can't rule people out' now you're basically suggesting it's scummy of me to not suspect BT, and to have reduced my suspicion of Thok in reaction to events.

No, it's not scummy of you to not supect BT. My point is that you seem to agree with me that neither Thok or BT are likely to be scum; or at least you're unable to make a case against either of them. So, since I know I'm town, from my point of view that makes it either you or MBL, and I don't think it's MBL. So that's why I'm voting for you. Process of elimination for the win.

Yes, because my attacking you, and telling you that you are my number two suspect is SO the best way to get you to vote with me. Really.

You're not trying to get me to vote MBL here. Assuming you're scum, you're pretty clearly trying to get Thok to vote MBL today, then kill off someone tonight and try to get me lynched tommorow. That's what your gameplan looks like to me, anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Well, if that happenes, then I've obveously made a mistake somewhere. I was right yesterday, though; if you remember, a big part of the reason I thought Rougeban was scum was similar logic, using process of elimination to figure out who the goon had to be.

[Yosarian2]

Thok, I'm thinking this one is going to be up to you. If you vote for Fonz, or BillyTwilight, or MBL, (or probably even me), it looks to me like that person is going to be lynched. So, I'm just wondering; if you absolutly had to vote for someone right now, who would it be?

[Yosarian2]

I'm here.

Basically, at this point, we're all just waiting for Thok, I think.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. Honestly, Fonz is kind of feeling less scummy to me lately. I'd be willing to go along with a billy lynch.

In fact, if it helps get this game moving somewhere

unvote

vote:Billy Twilight

[Yosarian2]

Woo! Game is over, and we somehow actually won! Awesome.

[Yosarian2]

Billy: Eh, it wasn't stupid, hesitating to hammer MBL there really did make you look more town, just like you thought it would. It didn't turn out the way you wanted, but I'm not sure that means it was a mistake on your part.

Anyway, partway through the last day, I just suddenly, all at once, realized I had been wrong and MBL was actually town. I can't really explain how I came to that conclusion, and I know it frustrated the heck out of Fonz, but...well, I just knew, heh.

[Yosarian2]

Twilight played a great game, if not strategically.

Why is Yos always scum to me? Every single game.

Lol. I donno, but you're not the only one who think that.

I blame the "best manipulater" tag.

[Yosarian2]

You think it frustrated FONZ.....!!!!

Lol. Well, I don't mind frustrating the scum.

It frustrated me when he used it to conclude that I was the scum, yes. At least I'm getting better at not blowing up in that scenario.

I don't think you'd have had a prayer in endgame anyway, tbh Billy.

Yeah...the mistake I made there was to eliminate Billy incorrectly. when I actually shouldn't have done so. I figured that out eventually, though.

And, I donno...if MBL had been speedlynched early in that day, and Billy kille,d I donno, Thok, Billy might have won.