Mafia 84 - Crime in Cressario [GAME OVER]

[armlx]

I'm a PGO. Pre-emptive policy claim so no one night targets me and dies for no reason.

Vote Caboose

[armlx]

good claim armlx, that basically gaurantees you live to endgame. also, thats the appropriate time to claim pgo.

As a random game derailing theory note, I don't think claiming as miller is good, as the odds of specifically being targeted by a cop are MUCH lower.

[armlx]

PGO = paranoid gun owner. Anyone who night targets me dies. You can see why that would be claimed D1.

Miller is another role people have debated about auto claiming D1, hence my random aside.

[armlx]

A miller is someone who is town but appears scum when investigated?

Yah. Ignore that part as its mainly a rant

[armlx]

I can think of scenarios where it is a smart thing to tell the town, and also a good idea to keep it secret.

Describe the later ones. The only one I can think of is having a sick meta/mod read and feeling the mafia was all trackers/rolecops/RB's/watchers/etc who might target me....

Is anyone else besides me getting some bad vibes from this roleclaim?

Why do you have bad vibes?

[armlx]

If mafia attempts to NK a PGO, what happens?

They die. Usually, the mafia chooses a specific member to send to do the kill, which makes roles like tracker (sees who someone targets) and watcher (see who targets someone) much more useful. Since this game has a role that cares about who targets who (mine), I'd assume they have to.

[armlx]

Seems really risky. Too scummy = lynch, not enough = dead doc.... for what pay off?

Much rather stick around and scum hunt, forcing the mafia to have to choose to lose a member or leave around an actively scum hunting player.

[armlx]

That's a VERY different scenario.

And I'm not implying I should be auto considered town because of my claim (though I don't mind it). Simply that night targeting me is a very bad idea.

[armlx]

I'm not implying I should be auto considered town because of my claim (though I don't mind it). Simply that night targeting me is a very bad idea.

See this.

[armlx]

I agree that if Armix is telling the truth then he should've definately claimed. Not confirmed innocent though.

This is pretty much the jist of it.

Does anyone here disagree with Emp's post?

[armlx]

If you had a bit more to back up your train of thought, then I would have no problem with this, but at this point, I would personally caution against warping simple questions into scum scenarios. This can inadvertently make you come off as scum, when you are not.

I'm interested what makes you say the last sentence.

[armlx]

Why didn't you wait until later in the day to claim?

The immediate claim prompts discussion and doesn't derail existing ones.

[quote"Lowell"]
I can't reasonably say "well, his claim seems legit, but he's behaving scummy, so I'll vote for him anyway." Nor can I say "wow, he seems really pro-town, but his claim is a lie."
[/quote]

PGO is pretty much a town role (plus if I was scum PGO, not claiming is optimal so people do night target me), and I wouldn't lie about my role as town, so neither of those are realistic scenarios.

Lowell's post rings softly of town to me.

I agree.

Guy0 is misreping Falcone. Falcone merely wondered why people auto accepted my claim as true. He's also using it to say Falcone is scummy. That's god enough to

Unvote, vote Guy0

[armlx]

guy0, votes the first couple of pages don't usually have reasons on this site and aren't expected to. The reason is that this process of random voting eventually leads to discussion. That said, once said discussion starts reasons are expected.

[armlx]

- Therefore, I intend to decide whether or not to lynch armlx, today or on any other Day, based on his actions and his behaviour. He starts out with a notch in the “scum”-column, though, just because I’m paranoid of letting scum ride an untestable claim to victory (see also: BWCS).

That's ironic given the fact you want to avoid WIFOM, yet give into it by assuming my claim is scummy or townie.

@ armlx: Why should I buy your roleclaim? Is it unreasonable for me to believe that you're scum trying to evade a cop investigation or a vig kill?

Its not unreasonable to realize its a possibility. Its unreasonable to assume its one way or another just based on the claim.

[armlx]

If another suitable person to lynch is not found, falcone makes a good point. If we HAD to lynch a town member, it might as well be armix since he doesn't add much to the town's protection in comparison to any normal townie. If he was telling the truth, scum would NK him anyway and if he is gone then that's one less person to worry about in terms of investigations.

Pre-emptive justification of potential mislynches by saying the person isn't as valuable as the worst case lynch (power role) is scummy.

Good thing I'm voting you.

Also, you have it backwards, the scum WON'T kill me if its true.

I don't get this. Isn't any claim either true or false? Either you're scum claiming falsely or town claiming truly. What other possibilities are there?

Mind elaborating.

Falcone, I actually agree with Rofl somewhat. The issue is not people who say "I'll consider lynching armlx based on his future actions", but those who are trying to bring my claim into the issue and thus just obscuring any real reads people will have with WIFOM.

[armlx]

I'm glad you shook things up roflcopter, but do you need to be so antagonistic?

What's wrong with it?

[armlx]

I have some responses to the above post after rofl does.

[armlx]

Personally I don't see the meaning of arguing over if he is a PGO or not. Its a good tactic either way, because If he is hes helping the town leting us know before hand, but if hes lying he could still be a vanilla townie trying to make sure mafia doesn't go after him at night.

FOS Dynamo

for assuming that I'm townie if I'm lying.

...and I can say that you're trying to make your scumbuddy armlx unlynchable. It does work the other way around, like matt_s said. And also, look back at my posts. I did NOT defend lowell, guy0, matt_s, or falcone. Stop fabricating stuff about me.

Except the defense is generally true. He's not fabricating anything here. You saying that he is doing that is the misrep here.

I absolutely HATE that first sentence. You label me and four other people as scum on weak evidence like that?

Your only counter here is his evidence is weak. And he's saying you are all very scummy, not necessarily all scum, misrep.

So you expected for me to roll over and take that vote from you without any reasoning?!

I felt his reasoning was pretty obvious if you were reading.

qwints, the absolute dichotomy is not 100% true. But those who fall into the groups rofl mentioned are scummy.

[armlx]

I want you to bold the part where I defended anybody. You're the only person misrepresenting anything here.

I want you to bold the part he said you specifically defended one of those people.

I want you to bold where the reason for his vote is in the above post.

Is anyone else besides me getting some bad vibes from this roleclaim?

Compare to

armlx lives til endgame bc we won't lynch him and scum won't nk him without losing one of their own which is not a good trade for them

Implying he thinks my claim is not scummy.

[armlx]

And the point is...

Your attack of an action he views as a town tell = scummy....

That good enough for you?

No. Especially given the automatic OMGUS (chainsaw defense) of most of you.

I think your claim is BS.

Why? Do you have reasons?

[armlx]

Armlx, who specifically is using an OMGUS defense?

Caboose for one, Matt_S.

Put yourself in my position. You're labeled as scum through the use of crap logic. How would you react?

Show why your logic isn't crap.

Since when?

Since when is attacking something that isn't a scum tell scummy? I dunno, always?

And Caboose, you said my claim was BS before rofl said that. So just the first one was what you were going off then? Do you also assume those who claim cop or doc have self serving claims as they draw protection and can't be auto confirmed?

[armlx]

Then, I get accusations from rofl that I am defending other people, which is a blantant falsehood since I did not once defend anyone else in my posts. You like to accuse me of OMGUS, but I would like to know how you would react to being labelled scum just because you didn't mindlessly believe a roleclaim.

There's a difference between not mindlessly believing and assuming a claim is auto-false with no other evidence.

That's the issue here.

[armlx]

Armlx, I like how you accuse me of using a chainsaw defense. There's nothing for me to defend anyone from.

This the same as saying "I'm not scum". You are defending every other person rofl fingered in his post by joining the wagon on him, as well as yourself.

armlx, I think you're missing the point of the post. I think caboose is complaining more about the accusations of defending other players than about being attacked for his stance on the claim.

Then he should read my previous post.

[armlx]

Armlx - what do you think of rofl's claim that his earlier posts were 'bait'? Do you buy it?

In general I don't, but from rofl I do. I've seen his play style before, and it seems on par.

[armlx]

Since you are now accusing people who are attacking roflcopter, does that mean you are using a chainsaw defense now?

Yes. It does. I am proving my attack through logic and disproving yours however.

And you were among those who rofl pointed at, btw.

[armlx]

rofl wins the explaining my point better then me contest.

[armlx]

Why not before the deadline?

[armlx]

I don't want d1 to end too early.

Here's the deal, there's no reason to stall till deadline if the lynch is decided. Nothing happens.

Armlx, this is a false analogy and you know it. A cop or doc who claims on Day 1 runs a very high risk to be nightkilled by the mafia, and will be suspected more and more as nights pass without him dying. A PGO-claim does not have this disadvantage. Also, cops can eventually confirm (or near-confirm) themselves by finding scum and getting them lynched.

In this size of game, a cop who claims D1 is not likely to be auto killed by threat of doc.

And you apparently over estimate how confirming that correct result is, BTW.

[armlx]

lindisfarne,

There's a difference between not mindlessly believing and assuming a claim is auto-false with no other evidence.

Then his rofl vote.

and

caboose, i didn't specifically say you had defended anyone, i named you in a group which had all done one or more of the following things

1 cast doubt on the pgo claim
2 defended guy0 or other people i named
3 attacked those attacking others i was naming

you're seizing so ferociously on the fact that you didn't defend anyyone because its the weakest part of my argument if you take it as pertaining to you, which it never did. you still haven't given a satisfactory response to the part which does pertain to you. in some ways its like you're strawmanning me.

[armlx]

I like how guy only pops up to attack people, lurks till he is attacked, then responds.

[armlx]

I did. You were attacked and responded. See step 2.

[armlx]

You should be posting in the middle of those two actions. That's the issue.

And step was was your attack of rofl.

[armlx]

What's the point then?

Your first assumption was that I wasn't town, the "Oh, and its not a big issue if he's lynched as town" was A) scummy and excusing a mislynch before it even happens and B) an afterthought.

[armlx]

I accuse you of opportunism, not lurking. Far different.

[armlx]

As for Sineish, he hasn't been that lurky, especially if you check it compared to his site posting history.

[armlx]

you did accuse me of lurking, but w/e.

The lurking wasn't the reason you were scummy. The issue was the opportunism that went along side it.

And the site posting history isn't irrelevant. there are 2 kinds of scummy lurking.

1) Avoiding a game specifically. He hasn't really been on a posting spree elsewhere that would give this away.

2) Active lurking. Too early to really say this.

[armlx]

Also, to be fair, some people do think that all lurking is scummy, the issue is simply not posting for outside reasons is a null tell.

[armlx]

Ahem, Essentially, guy0's entire defense is summed up by playing the noob card?

Yup.

[armlx]

when the mod reveals my role after my lynch you'll realize you were all wrong and can then start teaming up on those who accused me to begin with

Appeal to Emotion.

Needs more role claim from guy0.

[armlx]

EBWODP: The above role claim statement is based on the L-1 count.

And

policy Unvote, FOS guy0

. Never leave someone being forced to claim at L-1.

[armlx]

What makes you guys think guy0 is at L-1?

I didn't count.

Vote guy0

Moving along.

[armlx]

I also put zero stock in his "claim," and armlx's "policy unvote" is bizairre. If I can get out of trouble by self-voting, causing someone else to UNVOTE, haven't I just created a mechanism to remove a vote from myself pretty much whenever I want to?

No, the policy was I thought he was at L-1 as per Mana_Ku's post + my laziness. I wanted a claim pre-lynch, and leaving someone at L-1 while waiting on or just after a claim gets really awkward sometimes.

My unvote was only correlated to his self vote in that I thought said self vote put him at L-1 before he could claim.

[armlx]

Unvote, FOS Guy0

as per above policy.

Claim or die plz.

[armlx]

what do you mean by claim or die?

What is your role. If you do not claim, you will 100% sure be lynched. If you do claim, there is a chance you won't be.

[armlx]

Vote guy0

[armlx]

i don't think pgos are told when they activate.

This. I doubt it thought, game size implies there's probably 2 killing groups.

Armlx: Post 93: Do you think that rolf see's you as town and they are talking about the fact that your claim is not auto truthful? I don't see them as lynching you now, but explaining how it scum might try and fake claim (day 1 risking yes a rare role as that not so risky and looks pro-town). Post: 115: I'm sorry but weren't you not too long ago telling people that your claim is something, but not auto pro town just because you claimed. Why then do you support rolf comments? Post 150 is true.

Farside, my claim is not a sole reason to lynch me, which is more or less what the people Rofl attacked were stating for me being scum.

And

Vote Alvinz

. There was a reason I revoted there. If guy was scum, w/e, if he was town, my vote would bait a hammer like that.

[armlx]

It was also clear to you that guy0 was scum. It's pretty clear to me that you're jumping to silly conclusions.

Its also clear to me you are trying to connect the mislynch to your alignment when there is no connection.

[armlx]

The arguement that I'm making is that rofl is using the same theory to get me lynched that he used to get guy0 lynched. Does anyone else besides me find that weird?

No, especially as guy0 was considered legitimately scummy by a majority of the players.

[armlx]

I was inclined not to as most roleclaims that I've heard in games of mafia are false.

I assure you this is not true.

[armlx]

See above. Need moar votes on Alvinz.

[armlx]

Armlx, I don't think I understand what you are trying to say here. Elaborate please?

My point is the fact guy0 was town does not make Caboose's action not scummy.

[armlx]

I hate deriving meaning from kills. Emp may have very well been a vig kill on policy.

[armlx]

How was Caboose's alignment connected to guy0's? And I notice that you are lumping me in a group based on the fact that I am reading what you actually post.

Caboose was trying to say b/c guy0 was town, the points rofl made weren't true.

[armlx]

So basically, we let roflcopter, with the not-so-tacit-approval of armlx, decide the lynch for the day based on who is not in their little "Armlx is telling the truth and everyone who doesn't believe him is scum"-club? No thanks. I think trying to divide the game into two groups like this is ridiculously bad play (see also: roflcopter’s comment about Sineish in #255).

No, its not everyone who doesn't straight up believe me. Its those who try to flip my claim as a scum tell using just that to say I am scum.

if you derive no meaning whatsoever from kills then scum are free to kill the player who is most obviously a danger to them every night without any fear of repercurssions because you're too busy not deriving meaning from kills.

In most cases, there are too many possible reasonings to determine which one is most likely.

Which is basically what I, and others in the group roflcopter is trying to paint as scum, have been saying since Day 1.

It is what you said. Def not what Caboose did.

FOS Falc

for mentioning a Jester.

[armlx]

Except you were saying that BEFORE rofl ever defended me.

Like I said, trying to paint the claim alone as scummy is in itself scummy as you are basing a lynch on little real behavior.

[armlx]

Its definitely your implication that solely based on the claim you were assumingme scum.

[armlx]

EBWODP: The lynch thing.

[armlx]

That's definately not true. The reason I think that you might be scum is the fact that rofl is intimidating people that question your roleclaim by labelling them as scum.

Again, you said I was likely scum before rofl did that.

[armlx]

I think my problems with Rofl is that he was so quick to accept you as town.

This is a legit thing to be worried about, and you are probably more worried about it then myself as you are a 3rd party in the matter.

[armlx]

farside, I'm not sure on rofl being town, I'm just sure his read of the situation is right.

I see a lot of accusations, but really nothing to back them up, besides the calling of BS on armlx's roleclaim.

Its a pretty big thing. Its not quite trying to lynch confirmeds, but its on its way there.

[armlx]

Well then, brace yourself, because once my role is disclosed your theory is going to crumble like a brittle cookie.

Ye olde "I'm not scum" statement that means 0.

Who said you were confirmed pro-town? I hesitate to do that, because the last time I thought someone was confirmed innocent, they turned out to be scum.*

No one, hence the close to. Its more analogous to someone who was against a wagon the whole time hammering after the person claims doc because they "don't believe the claim".

And that whole last itme thing is irrel. Revist the scenario and see why you were wrong.

[armlx]

Falcone, I'm pretty sure his "role based info" is him claiming his win condition is the town one there, which is an irrelevant statement to make which only is really an appeal to emotion at best.

[armlx]

That's not exactly something you do with someone you think is scummy.

My point is there is a difference between not thinking someone is scummy and being sure they are town.

[armlx]

I would like to hear from someone besides armlx on this.

I'll hold off on commenting in that case.

[armlx]

FOS rofl

for misrep on the first point. Like I said, doubt its a soft claim of more then him trying to say he has a town WC.

[armlx]

Ok, so looking back on it, rofl really was tying in at least 2 (matt_s and falcone, maybe lowell) who didn't deserve to be grouped with guy0 and caboose (who were both legitimately scummy). That in itself is scummy.

This leaves me stumped. They pretty much can't be scum together, but.....

I'm leaning caboose on the basis I've seen rofl do ridiculous things like this before, but the extent of this is... odd to say the least.

[armlx]

Why? I mean really why just think meta on this? Some people are good at using their meta against people (which is why I don't believe meta is in it's self a good thing to go on) If someone looks and acts scummy, maybe that is because they are scum.

Why doesn't meta apply here?

[armlx]

I am. I don't see why it doesn't apply.

[armlx]

Mind elaborating on why matt other then OMGUS?

[armlx]

Because you even admited his play was odd. How can that be?

Its slightly above his standard level is my point. Caboose's behavior is further above the standard for him.

[armlx]

What's my standard. I say that I hate meta, but go ahead armlx. Do a meta on me.

I currently have a standard level for you and a slightly elevated one for Rofl.

[armlx]

Mana_Ku is posting elsewhere, pretty sure Demon Pineapple just flaked.

FOS Mana_Ku

.

[armlx]

I think it's clear that efforts to create confusion and act antagonistic are scummy.

The former, yes. The later, not necessarily.

Where did rofl try to create confusion?

[armlx]

I'm interested how rofl responds to this.

[armlx]

The alvinz wagon just fell off the map. Needs more attention.

[armlx]

I'm happy to oblige him. I don't see the need for confusion.

[armlx]

The only excuses I can think of is he is being a dick and not wanting to be replaced despite not wanting to play (unlikely) or is scum trying to WIFOM out of a wagon (likely)

[armlx]

It's basically another form of the appeal to emotion of giving into a lynch. In this case, its him trying to cause confusion of the form "scum wouldn't be doing that".

[armlx]

Except appeal to emotion is EXTREMELY scummy as you are trying to bypass any logical reasons to lynch you.....

Vote definitely stands.

[armlx]

My responses as stated earlier.

Way too early to be limiting our target so much.

No, that's pretty standard. The status only applies in the short term on those kind of lists early on.

This is, I think, his scummiest post. It was an attempt to make scum tells out of nothing

We obviously fundamentally disagree here. This has been discussed to death already, so w/e.

I didn't see anything close to a power role claim.

Where caboose said the "once my role is revealed" thing was sorta a power role soft claim, sorta a appeal to emotion of the "I'm town" variety. Could be interpreted either way.

A clear misrepresentation and ignores the implication that being distracting is scummy.

Is distracting actually scummy? What defines him as distracting, not trying to add input?

I think you are confusing derailing conversation with distraction as well.

Pretty sure alvinz is the 100% correct lynch for today, I have to look back and see who else to consider though. I'm starting to wonder if Caboose is actually playing in form for himself here.

[armlx]

I've seen one other type do what alvinz does but I shutter at the idea because I despise the role at face value. I'm not going to suggest it because if the role exsist in this game......well I will just say I'm not a fan.

Yeah, the old jester/bomb issue. Neither is a legitimate role as they punish the town for correct play, so anyone afraid of that just get over it.

[armlx]

Caboose, it actually can be either depending on scenario and extent.

[armlx]

It's not a towntell.

It can be if its used to cause constructive discussion/wagons.

[armlx]

I actually don't think he has been that antagonistic.

[armlx]

Why do you keep defending him? Do you think alvinz should be lynched just because he wants to be lynched or because he hammered yesterday?

I have a habit of defending people when they are attacked for dumb reasons.

I think alvinz was good to look into because of the hammer yesterday, and his response has made me want to lynch him.

Caboose, I would not call that really anatagonistic. If he started ad homing you, rather then citing in game actions that were legitimately an issue, then it would cross the line.

[armlx]

You don't think that rofl has acted the least bit scummy in this game?

I never said I didn't think that. I just don't think he has been scummily antagonistic. Nice misrep.

[armlx]

(this is an OMGUS and well reasoned statement).

I lol'ed. But not really.

[armlx]

I've agreed with him where he was right, and pointed out where others are wrong. It just happens I find he is right and most of those attacking him are wrong.

As I said, I feel some of his scum list is reaching a little. But that's about it.

[armlx]

Considering I'm in 2-3 games currently with you, you can see why a meta-read would be ongoingly developing.

[armlx]

lynch caboose today. he is scum. if i'm wrong you can lynch me tomorrow.

I do NOT like this.

[armlx]

The complete ignorance of the alvinz wagon relative to the rofl one makes me very happy with my vote.

[armlx]

What is the case against him, apart from putting on the hammer vote yesterday, and the strange posting style?

That's it, but strange is quite an understatement.

[armlx]

the environment in this game is far too favorable for a lurkerscum strategy.

This is true for all large games before about D4.

[armlx]

then lets change the beat.

Lets not, as it adds to the already high number of more or less random lynches each game.

Now, if any of those people are active across site but here, I'm all for a wagon. Otherwise, let the mod deal with it.

[armlx]

I realize. You have behavioral reasons on top of simply not posting that show those are better then random. It just an issue of confusing flakers/worthless people with scummy lurkers.

[armlx]

Is specifically ignoring one game a sufficient reason to wagon in your opinion Farside?

[armlx]

I agree with Falcone.

[armlx]

i also love how caboose constantly says he hates metas but always tries to use his own to defend himself.

This.

[armlx]

That was a profound post, armlx.

You never have had an issue with me making that kind of post before now......

[armlx]

I still don't understand why people keep ignoring Alvinz.

[armlx]

His actions don't fit what I've seen of him as scum.

Links plz?

[armlx]

His actions don't fit what I've seen of him as scum.

Links plz?

Here you go.

He's totally not suicidal.

Self hammers.

I mean, I've seen him as town not act like this, so I have to believe that there is null evidence pointing to this being anything other then what it usually is, which is scum appeal to emotion.

[armlx]

Really it bothers me that you keep deffending Roflcopter and now throwing Alvinz as scum they way you are. I see too much buddying up between you and him to change my vote.

Sure. The past several attacks on rofl have unreal dumb. Look at qwints' last post. "Trying to look like a cop"? Really?

[armlx]

It might be seen as an attempt at breadcrumbing.

That's probably the most slanted attack I've ever seen.

[armlx]

Caboose: The long/short thing is false. Its just commonly stated as hyper-long days used to be unthinkable, and the other extreme was more common (hyper-short). In reality its the extremes that are bad, and that's it.

As for qwints, I'm pretty sure over the thread I've responded to all the other points he made, and that single one was beyond absurd.

Farside: Its just a self-propagated comment. It seems to me like a case of confirmation bias, he thinks rofl is scum (or is trying to make us think that), and tries to see something scummy everywhere from him.

[armlx]

Post 255

in other news, sineish is added to the list of people who are obvtown

Post 398

sineish wrote:
and I am wary of following him for a second lynch.

i get the feeling you intimating that the mislynch yesterday was my fault and nobody else's. and why do you need to be following someone else? can't think for yourself? or is it that you don't know how to look like you're scumhunting without actually scumhunting?

fos: sineish

Post 399

sineish has a total of seven game posts. from here on his lurking will no longer be tolerated. for reference, i have 35+ posts (middling activity), caboose has 50+ (high activity) and armlx has 85+ (insane activity). seven is obviously not going to cut it.

looking back, you seem done have done a fair amount of legwork yourself on that guy0 lynch, so i don't know where you get off saying you were following me into it.

post 402- lists sineish as an acceptable lurker lynch

While roflcopter has switched on sineish, he did build a case while doing so. I don't like the fact that rofl seems to be trying to lynch any player he can, but I don't quite understand your confusion Mana_Ku.

Hmm, this is actually legit.

Rofl, response?

[armlx]

Farside, his Caboose comments changed in context of an alignment flip on guy0.

And see above.

[armlx]

What does guy0's alignment have anything to do with mine?

Ask rofl. I was kinda lost there too.

[armlx]

He's not helping anything in the slightest, even assuming he isn't scum.

I do NOT like this reasoning to vote.

[armlx]

He is trying the K7/Kscope method to dodging a lynch Caboose.

[armlx]

I was going to say I believed the claim, until I read his description of what it does. Kill back bodyguard? Rly?

Still, I think we have a better way to do this, so

Unvote

while we discuss.

What are people's thoughts on having Alvinz target me tonight? If he isn't dead tomorrow, we lynch him. If he is telling the truth, we are up about half a lynch and a confirmed me compared to just ending it today.

The issue is whether the odds of him telling the truth are high enough to justify the chance of him being an SK or mafia RB or some other role that is dangerous given another night alive.

[armlx]

Just so I don't forget, I have something specifically to say once everyone has commented.

[armlx]

One of the issues I'm having with it is that there is a very large amount of mechanical overlap with my role, to the point where I'm wondering if 2 roles that 1 for 1 with scum like that would be balanced.

[armlx]

I was thinking about that too. Unless there are two scum groups? I never played a game with 2 scum groups before.

That would make sense over a 1 scum group and an SK then if Alvinz is telling the truth.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Jebus

I can get behind that. His last post alone is enough.

[armlx]

Rofl goes OMGUS....

I can support his lynch as well.

[armlx]

Jebus, you are still voting Alvinz. What are your thoughts on my plan regarding him?

This question applies to everyone else voting him as well.

[armlx]

Well... history of lying about bodyguard claims....

Sigh... why does this have to be so complicated. There's no reason to assume the behavior is linked to an alignment at this point, so its pretty null.

I have a feeling this isn't a Rosso though (have role in game A, fake claim it as scum in Game B because of game A).

I say we just go ahead with the given plan anyways.

[armlx]

BTW, in case you couldn't tell, Jebus's relevant post sarnath'ed my question.

[armlx]

Alvinz, the question you are trying to ask is

If someone dies from two different sources, is this revealed in a distinct manner from one source?

Not sure if it matters, as that cross game post is pretty close to mod kill territory.

[armlx]

i notice matt's implicit confirmation that neither alvin nor armlx is scum with him in that last post.

This.

[armlx]

Ignore that last part. The flavor for the N1 death scene makes me think that the victims were killed by scum since they were in their houses. If alvinz is to be killed by the PGO, I guess he would be in armlx's house.

You are assuming the mod would give away info for no reason here. Bad assumption.

[armlx]

Wow alvinz, that was actually a reasonable proposal. I'm ok with that.

Except its basically asking for a cop to come out tomorrow if he is alive...

[armlx]

Oh yeah, that.

Meh, doesn't solve anything.

[armlx]

Lowell, the gain is if alvinz is town we lose less ground.

If he is scum, lynching him tomorrow assuredly over today doesn't really mean much unless we think he is a role that could cause it to ie. SK or RB.

[armlx]

What argument tomorrow?

The one where we just lynch alvinz?

[armlx]

All I can see this whole Alvinz-armlx night targetting thing doing is creating a whole lot of WIFOM on D3, and that's not helping us at all.

I don't see any WIFOM. If he's still alive, we lynch him. Its not like the bodyguard claim was saving him today anyways.

[armlx]

I could get behind a rofl lynch at this point.

[armlx]

But what if I'm town qwints?

[armlx]

The use of the word "role" implies that he has a role worth drawing out by the scum.

That's a stretch.

[armlx]

caboose and qwints. final answer.

The amount I agree with this is shocking.

[armlx]

fos:Natirasha

That was a little fast.

Orly?

[armlx]

The turn to defend rofl.

[armlx]

Roflcopter is not the answer. Falcone is.

[armlx]

Why are we voting rofl?

I'm interested in the response here.

[armlx]

I'm torn. I think parts of farside's case are valid, so I want to hear from rofl regarding these (again), but the whole "Points out bullshit arguments" part of me wants to shred qwints' "case" right away.

[armlx]

@amrlx - would you say anything more than you did in post 347?

Nothing really worth going into.

[armlx]

Very irritating to play with--that's why I'm mostly still voting him.

I lol'ed.

[armlx]

Wait...we have a PGO? Who's that?

Hi. Claimed Pg 1.

[armlx]

I like how qwints make it look like a lot more when a lot of the people rolf is suspecting are just doubles.

[armlx]

Rofl: ATM its either you or qwints, but a reread is needed.

[armlx]

Wait, what?

When did qwints claim cop?

I really don't like armlx's pushing of an either-or between rofl and me.

This strongly suggests to me that armlx is actually a PGO

Contradiction much?

I really don't like that given the already dead cop.

[armlx]

when you were mysteriously absent at deadline aside from one completely inconsequential comment. if you missed the cop claim, i imagine you missed quite a bit. but you were awfully active across the boards, i distinctly recall your name popping up constantly during the approaching deadline times on the 'most recent post' slot for various forums.

Definitely false. I was V/LA from Friday night to Saturday afternoon, as anyone who read my sig last week can confirm. I made a total of 0 posts on site between Friday at 5pm and Sunday at 5pm, during which the majority of the pre-deadline things you are accusing me of being absent for (ie. retired cop claim) occurred.

Vote Rofl

Talk about just blatantly false statements.....

[armlx]

on more important matters, what do you think of farside's ad hom against me?

It's farside. Some level of emotion in her play is expected.

i'm glad my lack of fact checking before i post gave you a pretext to vote me

It does. I'm assuming you just posted that under the premise that it is usually true.

[armlx]

Hmm, that works too..

Unvote, Vote Farside

[armlx]

somehow i doubt it.

This.

[armlx]

the fact that if everything was kosher with how the alvinz plan was supposed to go there would have been a third death doesn't differentiate the two for you?

Assuming no doc protect, RB, that the cop didn't just target me N1, etc etc.

[armlx]

I agree with rofl on there being a difference between his speculation and qwints's. There was a night of info for rofl to base his assumption off.

[armlx]

Generally, if a townie knows that someone is scum, he/she tries to convince everyone else of that fact. You aren't doing so well in that area. Scum play doesn't come naturally to you, does it?

This.

Thing that I just thought about: Keep in mind that even if Farside flips scum (which I think she will), Nat isn't automatically town. Nat could be a scum tracker (I've been one before in another game, so this role DOES exist) from a scum faction who spotted Farside as a scum from another faction. There is the remote possibility that Farside is a grave digger (a miller for trackers), but I seriously doubt it.

MASSIVE FOS Caboose

Seriously? No indication of multiple scum groups at the moment yet trying to deconfirm a person who is only THEORETICALLY confirmed on that, and what amounts to a Jester mention? Uninformed millers aren't common, let alone uninformed versions of an even more narrow, less common version.

[armlx]

No indication of multiple groups? Where are the multiple kills coming from then (I realize that SK is a possibility)?

On the scale of likelyhood, SK > Multiple scum groups.

[armlx]

No indication of multiple groups? Where are the multiple kills coming from then (I realize that SK is a possibility)?

On the scale of likelyhood, SK > Multiple scum groups.

I have no clue where you get that idea. And I have no clue what I said that deserved a massive FoS.

Look at games across site. And we aren't even sure that the 2 extra deaths aren't due to my role.

[armlx]

There's no other large SensFan game I can look at, so I don't know if SK>multiple scum.

Look site wide. Most games with only 2 scum groups are Mafia + SK. IF there's 2 mafia groups in a closed, there's usually an SK on top of that (in my experience).

Why is what I said scummy?

1) Trying to unconfirm people on sketchy at best evidence
2) Bringing up a corner case that makes the optimal play non-optimal, ala mentioning a Jester.

[armlx]

I'm under the impression that each mod has his own style. I haven't played a Sens game yet, so I don't know what it is. But I don't think that this is something of pressing importance right now, just something to keep in mind.

Each Mods style is influenced by site wide metas too...

Who said I was trying to unconfirm anybody? I'm just saying that we should be careful with the assumption that Nat is town.

But WHY. Your assumptions are unreasonable given out info.

What? Again, I'm not trying to make any definite statements, I'm just saying that we should also be careful with the assumption that Nat is scum if Farside flips town (which I think is possible, but very improbable).

You are making arguments that seed irrational doubt and protect farside.

[armlx]

The scenarios given are very improbable, but they're not impossible. They shouldn't overturn a lynch, just something to keep in mind.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt comes to mind.

And you are defending farside by giving out scenarios that allow both Nat and her to be town.

[armlx]

this whole trying to maintain the widest array of possible future lynches by letting no one become in any way confirmed in the eyes of the town thing is similar to my original issue with caboose.

This is true.

[armlx]

Lowell, point 4 is false. qwints was probably DL lynch if he didnt claim.

[armlx]

Jebus was a natural consensus lynch

WTF, why did this happen.....

[armlx]

Natural consensus lynches are just dumb and scum fueled.

[armlx]

Vote count please

Fixed.

[armlx]

If Farside is town and telling the truth about not targeting who Nat said she did, Nat should target me tonight as to save us a lynch tomorrow.

However, I doubt this is actually going to happen as its pretty obvious one of the 2 is scum and Nat as scum won't target me.

[armlx]

What the fuck.

Seriously.

Unvote

.

[armlx]

it goes without saying that nat should target himself tonight to save us the trouble of lynching him tomorrow if he's actually an immensely stupid vig.

This.

[armlx]

Holy shit. I think that's the first time I've ever seen the stopped vig kill = NK-immune SK/Godfather thing.

[armlx]

Mass claim sounds like the nut low today. Tomorrow is where its at for mass claim.

[armlx]

Rofl: How could I be SK at this point unless my game plan is to just no kill.....

[armlx]

armlx, while you're here, what do you think of matt/do you think he's a likely scumpartner of farside

I really have to reread. I don't like his call for mass claim here.

Nat as SK makes a lot of sense actually, set up wise. 4 man mafia + SK would be balanced at 18.

[armlx]

yeah, plus if he's nk immune it explains missing nk after his vig claim

your input after a reread will be appreciated

Midterm on Monday means it won't happen for a bit, but yeah.

[armlx]

Mason shouldn't claim today.

Should wait till tomorrow.

[armlx]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

So we lynch Nat today, Matt_S or someone tomorrow?

[armlx]

I mean, even if they confirm......

OBV SK.

[armlx]

qwints, who did you target last night.

[armlx]

I targerted rofl and got pro-town

Sorry, brain fart. I looked at your posts and for some reason failed to find today's result.

Vote Nat

. OBV SK.

[armlx]

lynching nat today seems like suboptimal play when we could be killing more mafia.

But if he is the SK, lynching him = 1 less kill a night = more time to kill mafia.

Honestly, what are the odds he is town?

[armlx]

his nks have been extremely helpful in the finding of mafia.

Assuming he is SK, what incentive does he have to keep killing mafia?

[armlx]

Rofl: I think he knows the gig is up now. His only out is to hope we play like you suggest and we fuck up, leading to the 1-1-1 or w/e end game.

[armlx]

Never let the claimed SK live.

[armlx]

Letting Nat live really puts us on a slippery slope that will eventually end in Nat, 1 mafia, and 1 town (I think that's called Prisoner's Dilemma, but I don't remember).

This.

[armlx]

What rofl said.

[armlx]

lets talk about likely scum pairs. matt, you start.

You mean pairing two living people together as scum? No thanks. I've learned not to make connections with alignments I don't know.

Why not?

[armlx]

lets talk about likely scum pairs. matt, you start.

You mean pairing two living people together as scum? No thanks. I've learned not to make connections with alignments I don't know.

Why not?

Because if one person in the pair isn't scum, people use that as an excuse for the other one to not be scum.

That's dumb.

[armlx]

Matt_S + Falcone IMO. Just going back to D1 and the way things split based on my claim. Falcone I'm less sure on by far though.

[armlx]

Because that claim was 100% necessary....

[armlx]

Does it matter? I'm starting to think a mass claim should happen soon.

Yes, it does matter.

And yes, mass claim TOMORROW.

[armlx]

My understanding is that we will lynch Nat today, but that we want lurkers to post before we go ahead with the lynch.

This.

[armlx]

I say just replace him anyways. I learned my lesson in Newbie 606, where he only posted to respond to prods

as an IC

. Don't make the same mistake and just deal with it now.

[armlx]

I don't see how armlx isn't confirmed

180 ALERT.

And qwints COULD be lying scum in theory.

[armlx]

180 ALERT.

Unless Natirasha is mafia for some deranged reason, I don't see any scenario where you are scum.

You've been trying to get me as a lynchable suspect all game...

[armlx]

What Caboose said.

[armlx]

something about these last few posts gives me a really uneasy feeling that matt and armlx might be scumpartners. if this is the case, armlx is obviously trying to do damage control after matt's very silly post re armlx being confirmed town.

Or I'm town, and I'm questioning Matt_S on an obvious slip, as to scum him me not being SK or scum with him = clear.

[armlx]

Mass claim tomorrow should be fun. P sure it should just end the game.

[armlx]

Likely won't replace Skitzer, since he is picking up prods.

Yes. And he won't post. Do you, as a mod, find that acceptable behavior to not warrant a replacement?

[armlx]

I'm at the point I endorse straight up mod kills for the health of the game.

[armlx]

PMing MafiaSSK.

[armlx]

Uhhh, how are you going to replace people without knowing the roles to send out?

[armlx]

Never mind, check Sensfan's sig. Thanks for stepping up so fast though SSK.

[armlx]

EBWODP: Also, you may want to get the set up from him just in case.

[armlx]

I would also appreciate if players dealt with me, and not PMing a back-up Mod, especially when there is no indication that I am not looking for replacements for this game, or that I have abandonned it.

Sorry about that, I just took crywolf's word on the state of your other game and assumed it would be better to contact SSK.

[armlx]

will modkills end the day?

if no, i endorse the modkills. people should unvote so we don't auto hammer nat when they happen, and then the massclaim probably needs to go down today.

If mod kills would end the day, the right answer would be to lynch Natirasha so we can go to night before the mod kills would take effect, so that odds are they would occur over night.

[armlx]

Waiting on replacements to say what they have to pre-lynch.

[armlx]

Why don't we just lynch Nat now and let the replacements say what they want tomorrow. It's not like we can act on anything that they say today anyway. We're just stalling now.

Death over night is the main reason.