Large Normal 232—Sibyl's Elegy [GAME OVER]

[Andresvmb]

i wanted to ask instead of assume n yes i do believe u would have voted for T3

Okay then. Nero and Vasex in different ways have argued that despite what I said, I was helping! my buddy by making the arguments I made but not voting them, or that I didn’t really want them dead. It’s such obvious hogwash that I find it fascinating you don’t think it’s coming from a place of bad faith.

[Andresvmb]

to me it seemed like he was ur #1 mafia even over nero n vasex

Yes indeed. But I’m not completely inflexible either. I work with pools of players I SR, as you can probably tell. Executing amongst the pool I find acceptable is fine by me. If other Town players don’t agree with me after I try really hard to get my way, then what did you expect me to do? Not push anybody else? It would not be particularly helpful for me not to put more of my thoughts out there.

[Andresvmb]

i was okay for letting kitty prove himself but i didnt believe T3 at all

I know. Which is why I TR you so strongly. And Marky Mark. What Nero is doing is trying to discredit players that clearly should be avoided in the short term to widen the execution pool to the benefit of Scum. This is my honest interpretation of what’s happening.

[Andresvmb]

Like at some point we need to drop the least likely universe and consider what’s actually happened, and be rational. If by the end of the game I’m still around and I have coasted on my Town cred to really put the Town in a bad place, by all means execute me. I will try hard to make sure I don’t do that.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I have to go to the market in the morning and I need to read some other games. Have fun.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Andresvmb]

I ISO’ed STD (I couldn’t help myself). Yes they’ve been single minded in their pursuit of Cabd. I thought they had a decent take on Dunnstral though, and they just don’t seem all that Scummy to me. They also made an interesting highlight of T3’s modifier that I don’t know Scum would make.

[Andresvmb]

std, is it not suspicious to you what windows said about you in this day when he tried to explain why he sees you as scum? it was so fake explanation in my opinion, and you, std, should understand is it a fake even better from your position, knowing dkkoba etc.

the argument i saw was that i was focused on cabd and not voting other people and they later posted how i voted other people

there is some truth that i was single minded in my push on cabd even though i did vote for other people. but it doesn't make me scummy.

i don't know. i think the argument against me was i was pushing cabd instead of t3 which is true regardless of my alignment, i thought i made it clear i was uninterested in pursuing a cop claim yesterday, so i wanted to pursue the target i thought was scummier. if people want to scumread me for that behavior, they are wrong, but i'm not sure i can blame them.

Like Vasex opens up the lane for STD to SR XP [Koba] based on Koba’s push, and STD openly declines, saying they understand the logic but it’s wrong. I think this leans Town. No?

[Andresvmb]

Like Vasex opens up the lane for STD to SR XP [Koba] based on Koba’s push, and STD openly declines, saying they understand the logic but it’s wrong. I think this leans Town. No?

or they are both scum

Vasex said so and he is the best player ever

Do you think they’re both Scum? Is that what you think that was? Don’t just present it as a possible alternative, argue it if that’s what you believe.

[Andresvmb]

Do you think they’re both Scum? Is that what you think that was? Don’t just present it as a possible alternative, argue it if that’s what you believe.

Vasex says they are both scum and he is the best mafia player to ever play.

Since when are you in this game?

[Andresvmb]

Do you think they’re both Scum? Is that what you think that was? Don’t just present it as a possible alternative, argue it if that’s what you believe.

Vasex says they are both scum and he is the best mafia player to ever play.

Since when are you in this game?

I guess you just blew up your alt?

[Andresvmb]

alt-slip oops

You still haven’t answered - do you think both Koba and STD are Scum together?

[Andresvmb]

alt-slip oops

You still haven’t answered - do you think both Koba and STD are Scum together?

Why not?

This is still avoiding answering directly and I don’t get it. Is that what you think yes or no? Don’t give me a why not - I’ve already expressed my views on both slots independent of that interaction.

[Andresvmb]

I think the Vig shot at Dunn who was being “protected” by Etine, which is why they died too. That would be my explanation. And then the Scum shot Kerset. If I had to guess.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Anastasia

[Andresvmb]

Etine should say who was under his defense at first night. I asked him. Why he didnt say?

They’re dead they can’t speak.

[Andresvmb]

I think the Vig shot at Dunn who was being “protected” by Etine, which is why they died too. That would be my explanation. And then the Scum shot Kerset. If I had to guess.

This makes sense. But we need to find out if the vig's shot was successful on Night 1 or not (if the shot was available).

It’s a 3-Shot. It was available. I don’t know that I would have shot then. You probably want to save it until you’re somewhat surer of the outcome.

[Andresvmb]

I think the Vig shot at Dunn who was being “protected” by Etine, which is why they died too. That would be my explanation. And then the Scum shot Kerset. If I had to guess.

That's not how a babysitter works.

A babysitter protects a target, then if the babysitter is killed, the protection target dies as well.

It's likely that what happened was our hero Kerset slew the villainous Dunnstral.

Etine protected Kerset and when Etine was shot, Etine and Kerset were both killed.

Yeah some variation whatever I mean I needed to look up the role but yeah they either were sitting correctly with a Scum and got shot or something or the reverse whatever produces the outcome.

[Andresvmb]

This here is a key fork in the road.

Save The Dragons [5] - Kerset, bloodhail, Anastasia, Dunnstral, NDMath
Dunnstral [4] - Rathe, samantha97, Save The Dragons, Almost50
Nero Cain [3] - Andresvmb, WindowsXP, DrippingGoofball
Andresvmb [2] - Nero Cain, Vasex
WindowsXP [1] - Etine

NDmath made this post viewtopic.php?p=12745139#p12745139 where he wrote:

Convinced by the arguments on this slot more than on nero or Windows.
VOTE: Dragons.

With this vote, NDmath raised STD's tally from 4 to 5. That looks bad for NDmath.

A bit later, A50 raised Dunn's tally from 3 to 4, making it ahead of the Nero wagon. That looks very good for A50.

We need to execute {NDMath, Nero Cain, Anastasia} this game.

[Andresvmb]

And if that doesn’t win it, Vasex.

[Andresvmb]

Why do you even suspect me?

I thought your push for STD was slimy.

[Andresvmb]

I think Kitty/T3 are both good police officers who want to keep our beautiful town safe.

I would trust both of them.

And this.

[Andresvmb]

Meh NDMath is probably a better target.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: NDMath

[Andresvmb]

Why do you even suspect me?

I thought your push for STD was slimy.

?

I stated at the beginning of the day I would be sheeping Kerset no matter where he went.

What is slimy about that?

Sure fine I’ll buy that argument for now.

[Andresvmb]

do we actually know what information dunn had?

Probably of their buddies and perhaps something mechanical but we’ll never find out.

[Andresvmb]

Who was all suspicious of whoever brought up the idea of a Traitor to begin with?

[Andresvmb]

Honestly if I had to guess, I think the Team is just {Nero Cain, Vasex, NDMath}.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no reason to deviate from executing from within that pool. If one flips Town maybe you widen it but those executions absolutely should happen at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to put in minimal effort until those players are flipped unless two are Town and I doubt it to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

Like KittyTacky, Rathe, DGB, Marky Mark, Enchant, and possibly samantha97 (that last one with caution) shouldn’t be executed today under any circumstance. Cabd is a horrible choice today because of how much it’s been pushed by suspicious slots, and A50 and bloodhail are definitely poor executions (and I TR them). That leaves XP and Anastasia as my least strong TRs (but still lean positively on), and I think everybody else can just get executed. I don’t think there even needs to be too much conversation.

[Andresvmb]

Now, the one mechanical flaw in this is KittyTacky, who could theoretically still be Scum. So that’s the only one I would think about. Somebody might want to re-read there and figure out if it’s even worth considering but we’ve got enough good targets today, it’s probably not urgent.

[Andresvmb]

ugh you know what
vote kitty
if kitty isn't scum vote me tomorrow i'm just a 1 shot bulletproof and after everyone RANDOLY scumreading it's not like mafia will ever try to kill me

traitor claim?

What are the chances...

...that scum thought WindowsXP!town was the traitor?
...that WindowsXP!scum was bringing up the topic of traitors to give the traitor an opportunity to manifest itself?

If scum thought WindowsXP!town was the traitor, then scum must have defended WindowsXP as their possible partner.

Remember how laboriously WindowsXP defended T3?

We might need to yeet Windows for the info.

You have a point here for sure.

[Andresvmb]

Now, the one mechanical flaw in this is KittyTacky, who could theoretically still be Scum. So that’s the only one I would think about. Somebody might want to re-read there and figure out if it’s even worth considering but we’ve got enough good targets today, it’s probably not urgent.

I think Dunnstral pushed Kitty during D1?

Yeah probably too much interest from Scum on that but just making sure.

[Andresvmb]

If I need to move my vote let me know I have made my targets clear.

[Andresvmb]

ugh you know what
vote kitty
if kitty isn't scum vote me tomorrow i'm just a 1 shot bulletproof and after everyone RANDOLY scumreading it's not like mafia will ever try to kill me

traitor claim?

Getting back to this.

Scum probably would never have voted WindowsXP after this "traitor" bit.

I don’t know that XP is a great target for today. I really do think NDMath and Nero for instance are much more obvious ones. If we start stumbling look there but there’s really no reason for an information execution at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

Like given the pressure on Dunn yesterday, the counter wagon was definitely heavy on Scum. There’s no real reason to execute outside of it just yet I guess is my thinking.

[Andresvmb]

there should be 3 mafia left right

Yep.

[Andresvmb]

Enchant is Town.

[Andresvmb]

Look at the rush of Enchant votes as T3 gathers steam towards the end of D1. That slot is Town. We just need to execute the other ones first.

[Andresvmb]

Like given the pressure on Dunn yesterday, the counter wagon was definitely heavy on Scum. There’s no real reason to execute outside of it just yet I guess is my thinking.

There are ample reasons to yeet Windows.

Have I not been like repeatedly right this game and pushed repeatedly by Scum? Can you trust me for one second here?

[Andresvmb]

Like given the pressure on Dunn yesterday, the counter wagon was definitely heavy on Scum. There’s no real reason to execute outside of it just yet I guess is my thinking.

There are ample reasons to yeet Windows.

Have I not been like repeatedly right this game and pushed repeatedly by Scum? Can you trust me for one second here?

I’ll put it in simple terms. If Nero flips Town, flip XP. That’s what I would do. Not before.

[Andresvmb]

Can you trust me for one second here?

I need more convincing arguments than those you've offered. My mind is open.

Just do what you want I’m not going to spend this game trying to convince you.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t have the time and it’s just not worth it. This game is honestly on a pretty damn good course.

[Andresvmb]

im happy kerset was solved cuz i was thinking they could be mafia

It’s funny because I thought the same.

[Andresvmb]

We need to execute {NDMath, Nero Cain, Anastasia} this game.

i think u should try to look elsewhere none of these r good options

Sure Rathe whatever you say.

[Andresvmb]

Andresvmb [3] - Dunnstral, NDMath, T3

I’ve been so wrong this game that basically the entire Team has been trying to get me killed during the day. But you do you Rathe.

[Andresvmb]

Sure Rathe whatever you say.

rathe is 2-0 atm

As am I.

[Andresvmb]

Look whatever Rathe I’m like 100% you’re Town so I will follow your lead. But I wouldn’t dismiss my list of targets.

[Andresvmb]

I think your accuracy is probably better than mine. At the end of the day I can’t say I’ve been super focused or particularly good across the board lately so it’s fine.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll say that if XP flips Scum, I think Nero is Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: WindowsXP

[Andresvmb]

i was trying rly hard to keep xp in my townreads but it just was not making sense i dont think town acts this way

I’ll be honest with you, I don’t think XP is Scum. I think they tend to feel a bit different when they’re Scum. I’ve played with them multiple times and I don’t think it’s going to hit but I failed at an Endgame just recently and I played another game a bit poorly and my confidence just isn’t there so that’s mostly what it is.

[Andresvmb]

I also started thinking that Nero perhaps wouldn’t so openly attack me as Scum. I think it would have been a bit foolish to do. But I don’t really know. There’s definitely one in {Nero Cain, XP} I think.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll say that if XP flips Scum, I think Nero is Town.

why

I think their interactions around how XP starts saying that Nero is trying to tie themselves to them at the beginning of D2 were a bit funky, and they were going at each other.

[Andresvmb]

And Andres ur spewed town off ana+nero scum

Look - how does nero reach the conclusion of cabd scum here and say im an acceptable lim in the same breathe.

This is scum trying to force a tvt wagon and its blatant

y is cabd town? and you can't use "he's spewed b/c u r scum" b/c im not. b/c the t3 wagon overtook him? I don't think that has to make him town.

You're egging on my wagon while saying cabd is also scum.

This is not logical

Am i the only one who sees this or are yall so blinded by tunneling me that its impossible to see basic fucking logic when it slaps you in the face.

This sort of stuff.

[Andresvmb]

i was trying rly hard to keep xp in my townreads but it just was not making sense i dont think town acts this way

I’ll be honest with you, I don’t think XP is Scum. I think they tend to feel a bit different when they’re Scum. I’ve played with them multiple times and I don’t think it’s going to hit but I failed at an Endgame just recently and I played another game a bit poorly and my confidence just isn’t there so that’s mostly what it is.

reading that game is what initially made me think dkkoba was mafia here

it was their interaction with you actually:

can i just say andres has this way with words that makes me just like - shit this dude is smarter than me in this game and idk how i even win games kinda vibe.

VOTE: lemon

fucking sold me just like the cook sell in the mason game we had (rip power trip masons tho lmfao)

is it bad that i wanna say i wanna sheep vasex today and like basically make them town leader like i fucking trust this dude to be town 100% and they are putting in effort i am unable to really put into a large game like i hate sorting 20 other people LOL

this is mafia bookmark this post

Don’t get me wrong. I thought that post was horrific. I highlighted it myself.

[Andresvmb]

vasex u got prior mafia experience? i can like really feel it - like i legit would like nom u for rising star for just your play this far regardless of your alignment you're playing dominantly and very cool

What. The. Fuck.

Okay. Replace Samantha with XP in my group.

Right here.

[Andresvmb]

Like that same train of thought was terrible in my mind.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Too fast. My vote is there in spirit but I want to get some more perspectives out.

[Andresvmb]

Look I am a firm believer that Scum is smarter than piling all on Town or hard defending their buddies all the time. The answer is never simple. I have been pinged by Anastasia and XP at different times I think you guys can see that. I’m not sure of either. I have disliked the bulk of NDMath’s votes but XP’s history is also pretty horrific, and if Nero is Town then that would sort of solidify it.

[Andresvmb]

Kerset felt Nero was Town. Kerset is no longer here. There might have been an extra incentive to drown that voice out. And they also advocated for Anastasia. It’s worth the shot.

[Andresvmb]

Ok now why windows is town:
Look at your previous game and check which one is typical scum behavior

A

Scum first accuse their partners and then back off once wagon on them gets serious.

B

Scum first defend their partners and then hop in once wagon on them gets serious.

Observe your previous games and you will see that B is the common case.

Also look at windows arguments, I didn't agree with them but they were reasonable. You can even see that the previous site thing was real.

I’m not the only one doing it. And Kerset has a solid point here.

Kerset also defended XP though. I don’t know man.

[Andresvmb]

In other news, I am still down with a vasex wagon and him pushing town yesterday only makes me want this more. Objectively, he's defended a maf PR d1 until their elim was looking unavoidable and then pushed town d2.

You saw my list. I would happily execute amongst {Nero, Vasex, NDMath}. That’s my preferred pool. If folks think XP is Scum I really can’t blame them. XP’s list of votes is terrible, there’s no way around that. They’ve pushed Enchant as an alternative to T3, defended T3 aggressively, did not vote for Dunn (who we know is Scum now), and attacked a laundry list of Town or probable Town D1 (Etine, samantha97, DGB}. But, they did have votes out for T3, Vasex, made an early argument against them, and also suspected NDMath (who I think is suspect), and called Kerset hard Town for example (1943). I think we’re giving them a lot of grief over their perceived overt defense of T3, and that’s entirely reasonable, but we might not be looking at the overall (mixed) picture. But again, it’s never straightforward so, I don’t want to pretend like it is here.

[Andresvmb]

made an early argument against them

This is against T3 not Vasex obviously.

Like that has to count for something no? It doesn’t read like distancing to me.

[Andresvmb]

Also @Rathe do you think Anastasia, Vasex and bloodhail all vote for XP here as part of the pool with no problem and XP is going to flip Scum? I don’t know it just doesn’t seem

right[/] for some reason.

[Andresvmb]

I don't disagree, but there are too many questions re:Windows and we really need that flip.

I just think there’s slots that are worse. That’s really all it boils down to. I don’t buy executions for information. I want to execute Scum. And I really do fine Nero Cain and NDMath to be worse.

[Andresvmb]

I think the Vig shot at Dunn who was being “protected” by Etine, which is why they died too. That would be my explanation. And then the Scum shot Kerset. If I had to guess.

This makes sense. But we need to find out if the vig's shot was successful on Night 1 or not (if the shot was available).

Does it??

What I was trying to describe is whatever situation triggered the death of Etine and Kerset at the same time, with the Scum shooting amongst the two (I forgot the impact of the role). Dunn is clearly a Vig Shot.

[Andresvmb]

I think the Vig shot at Dunn who was being “protected” by Etine, which is why they died too. That would be my explanation. And then the Scum shot Kerset. If I had to guess.

You totally don't know how Babysitter works, do you? Babysitter is a DOCTOR, so it Dunn was shot at while Etine was on him he would NOT have died.

It's the other way around (if your theory is true). Someone shot Etine and he was on Dunnstral, so the babysitter dies and so does his target.

I think the Scum were probably more likely to shoot at Etine (claimed PR) than Kerset (who was on Town last night and unclaimed). That was fundamentally my thinking.

Kerset didn’t shoot Etine right, because then you can’t explain Dunn’s death without an additional shot. Unless the Mafia are crazy and shot their traitor by mistake.

[Andresvmb]

If Etine was on Kerset then Scum shot Etine and Kerset shot Dunn.

Yeah this is what I think. And Etine was widely TR and if on the wrong player would bring down two Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Nero Cain

[Andresvmb]

Spoiler:

vote: Etine

better?

welp t3 is town

VOTE: Etine

whats the case on T3?

whats makes it unlikely that he's a town bp?

could enchant just be scum here? like this whole "he's a claimed bp, git him!" like there's a lot of scum motivation in wanting to get a bp out of the way. And the "he's unlikely to be town bp!" is just kinda slimy. Also I don't have to be on a wagon with DGB and Andre!

VOTE: enchant

Also I don't have to be on a wagon with DGB and Andre!

or we could help DGB bus

funny

my point was that DGB left a viable t3 wagon to vanity vote. From my POV that looks like scum that doesn't want to be on a ml.

what do u think of DGB leaving the t3 wagon to vanity vote artemania?

There aren’t 2 Cops in the game.

if this was a mini sure but this is a 21 players so more than 1 cop is plenty believable, no?

i mean it could be b/c I've been around longer but multiple cops has been done b4. Andres asking me/us to do busywork is pretty scummy.

Do you still want to elim him more than anybody else?

you know who I'd really like to get rid of? DGB. but I think it's too late in the day to do that.

What the plan of Cabd as mafia? Just to sit a month silently for a win condition?

y not? it seems to working out for him fine and as long as he's soaking up attention then we aren't hunting his buddies. He's also not being completely silent, he'll come in say something that I guess makes ppl not want to vote him. But also he could just be busy and still have been sent a scum role. I'd like to hear someone's town case on him.

dunn, t3, anya are prob voting scum but the chance we swing to an andre lynch is slim to none so join the cabd wagon.

enchant, self voting is dumb. I get it though but its time to move on.

bloodhail, Kerset stop voting town u dummies.

Anastasia prob won't join the cabd wagon b/c vasex is on it but he's not scum.

a50 being useless? no one saw that coming.

is it really that hard to use the post tags?

3239 has the twinge of IIOA but vasex just doesn't seem all that scummy to me.

cabd is still scum but no one will vote him for some silly reason.

VOTE: kerset

who would you vote besides dunn, sam?

nero n xp what do u think about dunnstral

nothing says he can't be scum but he's not someone I'd vote today.

what are your thoughts on Andre and cabd?

rathe I don't understand why you'd vote Dunn if t3 said dunn vs. std was tvt. you think that he was lying and its SvT or...?

andres looks town

to me, I think this is the scummiest thing he's said.

As someone that routinely gets scumread for tunneling on his scumreads, it's not like town don't tunnel. I mean sure maybe he's just scum that doesn't want to flail out and "spew" to many players but its not super convincing to me.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

I’m hot garbage? That’s just you with regards to the slots that have either been checked by a Cop or flipped. If Cabd flips Town at any point this game then basically all of your main pushes are on Town. The only person that needs to be hard ignored is you mate.

[Andresvmb]

And I included the shot at Enchant because it was presented as an alternative to T3. That slot hasn’t flipped yet.

[Andresvmb]

Logically sound is shit you say when you’ve been exposed as a fraud and have nothing better to say. Nothing you’ve done has been logically sound. You just keep pushing Town and for some reason people TR you here.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't get much from reading Dunn's iso except that I'm maybe wrong about Andre if we are under the impression that everyone that he voted was town.

I’m astounded that anybody buys this garbage and doesn’t see it as just openly Scummy. The only reason I might be Town is because maybe everybody Dunnstral pushed was Town?

It’s a scandal anybody thinks this is remotely legitimate.

[Andresvmb]

mafia don't know who traitors are?

VOTE: Anastasia

but fine. I will entertain this new evidence esp since u were off the STD wagon and nightkills dont necessarily point to u.

I’m pretty sure Nero was voting STD.

[Andresvmb]

That makes no sense. The Traitor knows who the Scum are. If they had a hood, then they would just out there and it would be like they aren’t a Traitor.

[Andresvmb]

It would just be a gimmick at that point. And well, what’s the point of that?

[Andresvmb]

Wait

[Andresvmb]

Rathe, did you get my fruit?

[Andresvmb]

Rathe, did you get my fruit?

i had to recheck my messages but no i did not

Alright so I guess that verifies your Claim then. Or at the very least that you’re a PR.

I’m a Simple Fruit Vendor. I sent Fruit to Rathe N1, Etine N2. I was mildly suspicious of Etine after the execution of STD so I wanted to check that slot. Turns out they died anyway.

[Andresvmb]

I was hoping I had targeted a VT N1 that I trusted so that it could verify my claim but I guess I failed at that.

Anyway, I don’t know who hasn’t claimed yet. I guess NDMath?

[Andresvmb]

Andre must feel like Linda Blair while her head is spinning.

UNVOTE: unvote

No you’re just bad. My head isn’t spinning - my thinking that perhaps you just had most everything wrong ended up being the case.

[Andresvmb]

What's the simple modifier?

If I target Vanilla or Goon, they get the fruit. Otherwise they don’t.

[Andresvmb]

And yes since the Mod hasn’t announced that there’s a Mafia Doctor in this setup which I guess would be somewhat needed (and since the Gunsmith is gated), I’ll take their word for it.

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

However, now we have a problem. A 1-Shot Cop, a Simple Fruit Vendor, an Odd-Night Gunsmith, and a 3-Shot Vigilante?

[Andresvmb]

Dammit I should have targeted Kitty now it’s too late and my role is basically Vanilla.

[Andresvmb]

However, now we have a problem. A 1-Shot Cop, a Simple Fruit Vendor, an Odd-Night Gunsmith, and a 3-Shot Vigilante?

?

whats the problem

Well I suppose the Gunsmith and the Vigilante together make sense. Cop comes back as having a gun too right? Well Rathe is going to get NK’ed that’s for damn sure.

[Andresvmb]

Also I softed my role day prior in kind of a stupid way. I said I was “going to the market in the morning”. It’s an identical soft to what I used in a different game as Fruit Vendor. I’m going to have to come up with something more creative next time.

[Andresvmb]

So XP needs to die. Well that’s a bit sad.

[Andresvmb]

However, now we have a problem. A 1-Shot Cop, a Simple Fruit Vendor, an Odd-Night Gunsmith, and a 3-Shot Vigilante?

?

whats the problem

It seems a bit overpowered but maybe not. Against a Team of 4 Scum and a Traitor Neighbor, with a Mafia Cop?

[Andresvmb]

Nero was an excellent check by Rathe. That at the very least saves us a mis-execution amongst {Me, Nero}.

[Andresvmb]

Also I softed my role day prior in kind of a stupid way. I said I was “going to the market in the morning”. It’s an identical soft to what I used in a different game as Fruit Vendor. I’m going to have to come up with something more creative next time.

i crumbed my role on day 1 within my first several posts i had never done it before n maybe it didnt even work

Nope I missed it.

[Andresvmb]

I wouldn’t have sent it to you otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t google Holland and Holland haha

[Andresvmb]

Clearly I should have. Too late for that now.

[Andresvmb]

tbh most times i would be going :hmm: at a fv claim with 0 verifiable results but i townread andres on play

Nero would be very dead if I was Scum.

[Andresvmb]

His argument in reverse did make me think that the Scum are trying to pit is against each other.

[Andresvmb]

I also don’t really have much of an incentive to confirm the claim from the role clearing the player I’m most loudly attacking today. So this kind of annoys me but it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

And besides, the role that would show up as No Gun is the Traitor. That explains that. So Nero is like almost surely Town.

[Andresvmb]

I suppose I’ll be adding Cabd to my POE.

[Andresvmb]

XP keeps defending NDMath. It’s possible that it’s just White Knighting.

[Andresvmb]

You’ve read Vasex’ ISO multiple times? I feel sorry for you.

[Andresvmb]

I read every post with the exception of that really long one with a summary of all of the activity around T3. I couldn’t get through that one to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

So what, {Cabd, Anastasia, XP}? Or something? Maybe bloodhail?

[Andresvmb]

@Nero it was just you and Dunn in your Neighborhood? I don’t remember a full claim around that.

[Andresvmb]

maybe marky mark if he lied about miller

They were also encouraging what appears like a shit solve from my end today. So there’s that too.

[Andresvmb]

Okay well I’ll wait for the end of mass claim and I’m sure XP will get killed so if they don’t get hammered by their own Buddies I can do it.

[Andresvmb]

@Nero it was just you and Dunn in your Neighborhood? I don’t remember a full claim around that.

yes

And did anyone check to see if Dunn softed the existence of a Gunsmith at any point? That might be the mechanical element they were aware of. That one is a wild guess. But it would be key to Scum fake claiming correctly I would assume.

[Andresvmb]

So what, {Cabd, Anastasia, XP}? Or something? Maybe bloodhail?

i think so unless one of the townreads r rly outplaying everyone

what about enchant


i townread him off the T3 stuff but just looked at him and noticed hes been doing fuckall

The wagon D1 on them as an alternative to T3 probably clears them. And very many of the suspects or flipped Scum participated in that. I find that one highly unlikely.

[Andresvmb]

its been nagging me but


i think town!nero implies scum!andres.

This is practically a Scum claim from you.

[Andresvmb]

its been nagging me but


i think town!nero implies scum!andres.

This is practically a Scum claim from you.

no, scum me is able to successfully pocket you.

as i have already done so twice.
No, it is. Every time I start turning on you in a game, and you’re Scum, you throw out a SR my way. I don’t know why, but you do.
why do you scumread me again?

[Andresvmb]

What. My reply is embedded in your quote.

No, it is. Every time I start turning on you in a game, and you’re Scum, you throw out a SR my way. I don’t know why, but you do.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m like the only idiot that’s been defending you somewhat. I said I had mixed feelings about your slot, how your posting and solve at one point D1 were pretty bad, and that post about how we should sheep Vasex definitely gave me the heebie jeebies. But I also said you didn’t feel like Scum. And I defended your arguments in favor of T3.

[Andresvmb]

^@Koba

[Andresvmb]

I placed you in my solve as potentially going either direction. And you have tried to do the same thing you did in the mini. I just think here you are a lot less likely to survive.

[Andresvmb]

Look I don’t want to get into this exchange. And you have yet to pocket me with me defending you until the end of the game. But I do tend to lose against you as Scum and it’s annoying.

[Andresvmb]

...

Why exactly we massclaim? With 2 mafia died they are unlikely getting majority soon.

Nero and I were probably going to end up in a bad place without Rathe’s intervention. I think it’s greatly improved Town’s odds of winning.

[Andresvmb]

viewtopic.php?p=12731916#p12731916

Here’s you doing it in that Mini we just finished. I started turning on you aggressively in the previous page, and this is what you do.

[Andresvmb]

viewtopic.php?p=12331252#p12331252

And here, I started the day attacking you and Flavor, and you did the same thing.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just saying - there’s a pattern of the winds turning against you in a game, me waking up in some form, and you throwing out a SR in my direction when I’m Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: WindowsXP

[Andresvmb]

The person I sent fruit to should claim it. They claimed VT yesterday so it shouldn’t be all that hard.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Vasex

[Andresvmb]

If we execute Enchant we’re the worst collective Town ever. Like at some point it stops being funny.

[Andresvmb]

This game still going.

So. Who Rathe did check?

Rathe had checked Nero. But Nero has honestly been so openly Scummy I really do think there’s something going on there and what I’ve learned is that we should really judge people by their play and not entirely rely on mechanics. But you know the odds that anybody pays any attention are like near 0 frankly and I fully expect to even get some suspicion thrown my way over what I’m sure is a bit of an unpopular opinion. But whatever it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

5031 - like there’s no reevaluation even after getting literally everything wrong. STD was Town, and so was Koba (harder, admittedly, but still completely botched that one). I know I’m Town, and most every other push as I’ve already detailed by Nero has been horrendous and on Town, with the exception of Cabd who is most surely never going to get NK’ed in this game since they’re barely present. And now they suggest a potential “policy execution” of Enchant? It’s really in our faces.

[Andresvmb]

In any case, I think we should pay some attention to Koba’s solve as well. I am happy to move onto Anastasia if that’s an avenue that anybody wants to explore.

[Andresvmb]

The person I sent fruit to should claim it. They claimed VT yesterday so it shouldn’t be all that hard.

hey whyd you target rathe n1

Because I TR them. In fact they were my strongest TR that I felt was not going to get NK’ed at that stage. That was the thinking.

[Andresvmb]

ok

why send fruit to rathe (unknown) and etine (claimed pr) over either of the two players who claimed VT on day 1

You wanted me to send fruit to STD? Really?

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know who else claimed D1 I don’t remember.

[Andresvmb]

Who was hammered but not hammered?

[Andresvmb]

The rationale behind Etine is pretty straightforward. If they were lying about their Role I was going to find out. I would have claimed Fruit Vendor only and asked them if they got my fruit. If they said yes, then they’re lying and Scum. That was the simple reasoning. At this stage my power is useless because the Scum will openly stop me from using it effectively if they can. Which I suspect they did here already.

[Andresvmb]

ok

why send fruit to rathe (unknown) and etine (claimed pr) over either of the two players who claimed VT on day 1

You wanted me to send fruit to STD? Really?

im talking about cabd and enchant (i dont think save the dragons claimed)

like those seem like ideal targets because a claimed vt is never gonna die

I don’t think sending fruit to Enchant makes any sense. If I strongly TR you based on how your wagon formed and you claimed Vanilla already, why would I bother with that? I’m trying to expose Scum fake claims above confirming a VT claim that was pushed to the brink. I don’t think the latter is particularly valuable. And well, I ended up confirming Rathe’s role anyway which also helps.

Btw, mechanically, has anybody seen a neighborhood with two Scum traitors that can communicate with each other?

[Andresvmb]

testing a vanilla claim seems straightforwardly the best use of the role and yr rationale seems highly questionable

like testing etine only works if etine is exactly a mafia goon, but hypothetically etine could be a mafia PR who wouldn't receive the fruit either

id figure if i had that role id want to target someone who might actually confirm me as FV

Yeah bloodhail call it whatever you want it’s what happened. I don’t care to have someone confirm me as Fruit Vendor in this game because I’m bleeding Town. If I thought I was near execution or people couldn’t read me properly then perhaps I would have played it more conservatively.

[Andresvmb]

Btw, mechanically, has anybody seen a neighborhood with two Scum traitors that can communicate with each other?

I checked the archive and the answer is no. And unless there’s some sort of troll job going on, Nero probably isn’t a Serial Killer and a Neighbor at the same time. Which really only leaves Mafia Doctor, which I don’t really think is a possibility. So I’ll lay off there I guess.

[Andresvmb]

There were a few games with a Scum Neighbor to a Scum Traitor Neighbor funny enough, but since I don’t believe Rathe’s result was tampered with (and I believe that would be outside of the guidelines for Normal games), and they got a result of No Gun, I would assume it’s just correct then.

[Andresvmb]

So @DGB maybe stop voting for Nero and put a more useful vote down.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Anastasia

I can’t believe I’m succumbing to this, but that come to Jesus post by Vasex is hard to ignore. Oy.

[Andresvmb]

I disagree with Andres in that I don't think this is towny. I do want to keep an open mind though and I'd be interested to hear what Vasex has in terms of a solve for the current gamestate.

If I’m in Vasex’s situation and I’m Scum, I probably would have gone down by pushing someone hard or really filling up the thread with unreadable content. This admission that they’ve made serious mistakes? It’s not what I expected given how Vasex has behaved in the game if they were Scum. It could be a ploy of course everything can be. But I do think it’s Town positive frankly.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andresvmb

Vasex I want to defend you. I do. But you come up with every stupid vote possible. Honestly.

[Andresvmb]

You want to sheep XP and what do you do? You vote

me

. At some point this is indefensible.

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA until tomorrow btw.

[Andresvmb]

I sent fruit to samantha. Clearly they didn’t get it. I don’t know that I necessarily mistrust samantha’s claim - I just think that now that I’m outted, I was never going to have a chance to complete a visit. It is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

I want to do the opposite of whatever Vasex wants to do. If we go down that route, maybe we have a chance for success.

[Andresvmb]

At first I was a little unsure if bloodhail’s Claim sits in direct opposition to mine. I need to think about that some more.

[Andresvmb]

What are you saying Mark? Not sure I follow.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know that samantha is lying about their role. It’s impossible to know for certain since I publicly claimed my exact role to confirm a Town PR. So if there’s an RB, and it got used on me, it could easily give a false positive that sends the Town astray. So I’m not willing to trust it.

[Andresvmb]

What I want to do is execute based on play - mechanics aren’t going to fully solve this. I’m getting increasingly concerned that Vasex is just straight Scum. Literally all of their pushes are bad. And now out of the two somewhat overlapping claims I’m the one that shouldn’t be trusted?

[Andresvmb]

It’s getting harder and harder for me to ignore.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Cabd

[Andresvmb]

Here’s my thinking - I think Cabd might very well flip Scum. I think {bloodhail, Vasex} are bringing up the role conversation because they may want to prevent whatever is happening and instead get rid of me. I am also tired of pretending Vasex is Town - every bad push, they’re there. And the vote for T3 was a late one that was very likely bussing after T3 was looking like the execution.

[Andresvmb]

What I want to do is execute based on play - mechanics aren’t going to fully solve this. I’m getting increasingly concerned that Vasex is just straight Scum. Literally all of their pushes are bad. And now out of the two somewhat overlapping claims I’m the one that shouldn’t be trusted?

Why do you think Cabd has played more scummily than NDMath?

I want to trust Koba’s intuition on NDMath. And besides, Vasex is signaling that they could vote for Cabd but then don’t. And instead, they push Me and then NDMath. Fascinating isn’t it?

[Andresvmb]

At some point some of these more obscure slots need to die. And well, if Nero is Town, it’s quite possible that they were spot on about Cabd. This is a sure fire way of finding out.

[Andresvmb]

I want to trust Koba’s intuition on NDMath.

I think this is shit reasoning.

FMPOV he's scum that knew that I was town and despite town reading me said he'd be ok flipping me and I think its a scum thing to do. He also did that with STD so...he's just NOW pushing somewhere. It's d4 and he's done shit all except meta defend himself.

I’m voting with you mate. Maybe relax a little bit.

[Andresvmb]

And you have been so correct that you voted to execute XP and STD, and defended T3. So I don’t think you have ANY legs to stand one to call anybody else’s reasoning shit.

[Andresvmb]

to stand one

To stand on*

[Andresvmb]

out of PR claims - the only 3 i would have doubt on would be Mark, Andres, and Nero. There is probably at least 1 scum in that pool.


Outside of that I think NDmath + Vasex make sense too.

u know that might just be the exact solve bc i dont see scum pooky reevalling me just for "towncred" because theres a pretty well defined path to win with me flipping town

this is Koba's last post

they did not townread NDMath at the end.

Yeah and they also thought I could be Scum because I started doubting my TR of them. It happens. Look at the entire history of posts for NDMath - you can’t focus on the last one and think that’s it, that’s all there is too it. Because that would be flawed.

[Andresvmb]

I dont understand mechanics, where is the fruit you sent to Samantha

If you don’t understand mechanics, then you shouldn’t ask questions you won’t understand the answers to. Seems like a waste of time.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah and they also thought I could be Scum because I started doubting my TR of them. It happens. Look at the entire history of posts for NDMath - you can’t focus on the last one and think that’s it, that’s all there is too it. Because that would be flawed.

I think Koba's last post is a summation of their thoughts and the one that I would take most seriously.

I don't think it would make sense to pick their thoughts at a specific time to sheep rather than the one at the end.

What makes you believe Cabd is scum and NDMath is not though?

Why are you so insistent on this? I’m voting what I think is correct. You can vote whatever you want. If you think I’m wrong fine vote for whoever. Koba had a consistent message that they diverted from only because NDMath starting doubting them. They did the same for me. Like I said, it happens. I think that last post is colored by that.

[Andresvmb]

Koba was clearly wrong on T3 too. I don’t listen to everything they say clearly. But more often than not I vibe with certain views they had. This is one such instance. If I’m wrong that’s great - it means we flipped Scum. And for a long time I thought NDMath could be Scum. I just don’t see it happening, sorry.

[Andresvmb]

Then do the opposite of whatever Vasex wants to do. It’s the best way to guarantee we don’t execute Town.

[Andresvmb]

It’s possible that Scum decided not to RB Kitty since they had been directed to check on Town. But you’re right, it does seem like a natural place to block.

[Andresvmb]

Vasex 1027
WindowsXP 568
Andresvmb 363
Rathe 324
Nero Cain 281
Marky Mark 277
Anastasia 275
Kerset 201
Enchant 197
DrippingGoofball 195
samantha97 187
Save The Dragons 174
Cabd 167
bloodhail 159
KittyTacky 138
Etine 131
Almost50 118
Dunnstral 115
The Bulge 99
T3 95
Anya 94
NDMath 20
DeathNote 18
DkKoba 16
Artemiana 8
deep-city-lights 5
PookyTheMagicalBear 1
Gypyx 1
Momrangal 1

Are you trying to say that because you’re the top posted you can’t be Scum? Is that your argument?

[Andresvmb]

top posted

Top poster*

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andresvmb

I wanna resolve this role triangle today

also, of the list of vanillas, I can't imagine why you'd pick me first if you're sincere

Why am I the acceptable choice to you? Just curious.

[Andresvmb]

Why am I the acceptable choice to you? Just curious.

rathe was gated
bloodhail claims gated (I am super paranoid of second-claim odd/even-nights in general though) + claimed ndmath vanilla with it before ndmath claimed
you claim ungated with basically the same role as bloodhail + claim roleblocked + claim a target that doesn't makes sense from my point of view
and it's not like it's impossible for kitty to be mafia but there's more reasons why they wouldn't be than you

and I know you said you wanted to be confirmed through rathe, but targeting them instead of cabd or someone actually contentious like dkkoba night 1 doesn't have a mafia-hunting mindset to me

So you’re solve of my slot is entirely mechanical? So you can explain all of my play as coming from Scum? In your world, instead of claiming Vanilla and basking in the fact that I have defended Town repeatedly and pushed for Scum more than once, you think I make a suboptimal claim with suboptimal targets in your view under no pressure just because?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: bloodhail

[Andresvmb]

Never mind that the claim confirmed a Town PR that made a check on a player I was aggressively pushing.

And how did bloodhail react to my Claim? Can you remind me of that? Because they interacted with me immediately after, and they didn’t seem all that suspicious that I claimed basically what their role was until some time after.

[Andresvmb]

In fact they TR my play even if I was claiming a PR that could be confirmed but hadn’t been up until then.

[Andresvmb]

After that little diversion from {samantha, bloodhail}, I have a bad taste in my mouth. Them being perfectly happy to sit on Cabd doesn’t feel right to me.

[Andresvmb]

i mean, im pretty likely to get nked but whatever.

HAHAHA no.

[Andresvmb]

Ok, Enchant, maybe you are townie. Who is mafia?
Ana? Mark? Andre? Sam? Me?

Possible Andre, because as i said, two vanilla cops is something oof. If Blood is right one, then Andre is probably not.

How about you get your head out of your ass?

I am a bit tired of entertaining complete nonsense from some of you. Why don’t we do exactly what the wagon that’s been executing Town left and right wants to do?

[Andresvmb]

How many more Town need to get executed before the bunch of you stop being so utterly incompetent?

[Andresvmb]

The player I handed fruit to last night has already posted. And appears not to be claiming it. So like I suspected, my role has become utterly useless.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: bloodhail

This is Scum. And if we don’t kill them, then PLEASE execute me so I can get out of this game.

[Andresvmb]

The player I handed fruit to last night has already posted. And appears not to be claiming it. So like I suspected, my role has become utterly useless.

So you think that sam and new fruit's receiver are town prs claimed vt or what?

I don’t think everybody that claimed VT is lying that would be absurd.

[Andresvmb]

Where is the fourth fruit? Claim it

I’m going to assume people play competently enough to look through their messages prior to the start of the day.

I sent my fruit to Enchant.

[Andresvmb]

Nero or Enchant?

Nero claimed Neighbor. I checked with the Mod - they wouldn’t get my fruit. It’s the only reason I didn’t try it, because they fought me hard enough that folks might actually believe if they were to get it that I actually sent something.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, bloodhail is CLEAR Scum. If you all want to execute Cabd and continue to dig an even deeper hole in this damn game, by all means.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t give a shit what blood says. They need to die.

[Andresvmb]

cabd was the counterwagon yesterday it doesn't matter if he's town, we have to kill him

Sure, why don’t we continue to listen to those continuously executing Town? Seems reasonable.

[Andresvmb]

Ok, who is with Blood?
And you said that your role is useless... Why do you think that?

Because I’m not an idiot.

[Andresvmb]

Mafia roleblocker? Dgb blocked you twice?

They flipped Odd-Night. They wouldn’t have protected me yesterday. And DGB probably got shot as the Cop check more than anything else.

[Andresvmb]

The reason bloodhail is clear Scum btw is because I’m the same role basically but I’m being interfered with in order to bolster bloodhail’s claim. I don’t actually know whether Cabd is Scum or not (and it could be a bus that basically gets me killed next and sets us up for a loss), but I would feel a hell of a lot better if bloodhail was executed. Outside of that, you guys do what you want. At some point someone will use their brain and think a little deeper about what’s happening.

[Andresvmb]

But like there comes a time when maybe the guy that’s defended most of the Town getting killed and screamed loudly for a Scum execution maybe isn’t Scum. Seems somewhat logical but I am bit tired of this game so I can’t say I’m super invested anymore.

[Andresvmb]

Ah so now I knew you were fake testing a Town? Yeah, sure.

[Andresvmb]

Execute obvious Scum or execute me. There’s no other choice today.

[Andresvmb]

The reason bloodhail is clear Scum btw is because I’m the same role basically but I’m being interfered with in order to bolster bloodhail’s claim. I don’t actually know whether Cabd is Scum or not (and it could be a bus that basically gets me killed next and sets us up for a loss), but I would feel a hell of a lot better if bloodhail was executed. Outside of that, you guys do what you want. At some point someone will use their brain and think a little deeper about what’s happening.

you are too worried about that now. asking to kill you, why? too much drama
we have 1 confirmed scum among blood and cabd. in the worst scenario we need to elim both, if the first one is town.
so we need to elim cabd first. i see no big problems about this too. and if cabd flips scum you have big problems

They just retracted their claim. So...

[Andresvmb]

Yep I didn’t know what to say. Which is why I keep constantly executing Town. Oh wait, no, it’s actually you who happens to constantly sit on Town.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I’m not going to engage in a deep debate or point to every post of bloodhail or every vote. Everyone can do their homework and vote. I don’t even care frankly if I’m executed. What’ll happen if I am though is that one of {Enchant, samantha} will be accused of lying about their role (since I am going to flip what I said I would flip). So be prepared for that argument too and perhaps focus on the play more than the mechanics.

[Andresvmb]

Vasex is doing distancing now that there’s a 1v1 with Town. Ignore it. I would absolutely blow up the slot.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I'm quite bad at this game sometimes

Could you please help me by showing me why Bloodhail must be scum?

Not going to do it. I don’t have the motivation and you’re just straight lying hahaha sometimes bad? Pooky you’re a better player than me.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not close.

[Andresvmb]

We’ve played two games this is our third game together. You came into a game as Town and cornered the Scum almost exactly. Mechanics ruined that game. And as Scum, you handed me my ass in Endgame. And you think I’m going to entertain this crap from you? Please.

[Andresvmb]

I was very impressed with your play in that game where I was scum, you read our intentions perfectly at every step and you were probably the hardest person to control for.

I appreciate this Pooky but I have ruined two Endgames now in a row and I’m just looking for someone to actually see what I’m seeing instead of me feeding a narrative that frankly is probably going to be wrong on most of the points anyway.

[Andresvmb]

Please Andres, you're one of the few people I actually trust in this game. Help me - if you see something then advocate for it.

I thought bloodhail was Town at first because of how they came in with a completely relaxed attitude, a sense of I’m not going to read and you can’t force me, and a late vote for Scum. But their competing claim, and their constant distortion of my positions, all make it spectacularly likely from my perspective that they’re Scum.

If you trust that I’m Town in this game, well then all you have to look for are some of the arguments they’ve made against me both yesterday and today. Vasex should also not be trusted because they seem intent on (i) murdering every Town, and (ii) constantly pick at my claim and delegitimize it. There’s other reason to strongly dislike Vasex here, but they’re hyper posting still makes me think it has to be Town (I’ve never seen Scum give away so much information before ever). They’re just horrendously wrong and I don’t know what to make of it. Now they seem to want to push against bloodhail but it’s very little way too late.

[Andresvmb]

What kind of garbage logic is this? You’re not getting two for one Scum I’m fucking Town. The idea that you can just execute me here to get yourself into a better position is completely stupid.

[Andresvmb]

The fact that you can’t figure out I’m Town probably makes you either horrible at reading players or Scum Enchant. Which is it?