Large Normal 234 | A Large Normal | The End

[Iecerint]

Vote: GammaEmerald

[Iecerint]

1. I felt strange reading Elsa idealize Titus.

2. Titus praising Kitty for ignoring mechanics reminded me that I don't actually know what "default scum multitasking" means.

3. Yay Dan didn't know either I feel less old.

4. HumanEatingMonkey looks scummy in 109. Not sure what to make of 5 posts following it. The post hoping Dan is Town made me chuckle.

5. Cyrus finds HEM scummy, contextualizes it as meta.

6. Surprised Dan is confrontational of Cyrus when Cyrus does that. I think this is either ineffective on Dan's part (because I'd expect it would make Cyrus less overtly engage with the game) or scummy. Leaning DanScum.

7. Then Cyrus's response makes me think I overidentified with him because of the overlap in our perspectives above. I had seen him as trying to engage with the game in his original post.

8. Titus is town.

9. My vote for Gamma on page 4 wasn't RVS. I don't think it's unimagineable for someone to notice something by page 6. (Re: Cyrus voting for a "reason" and whether that is plausible re: Titus.)

10. @ActionDan, Elsa can be quite grandiose even as town.

11. HEM is scummy sheeping ActionDan rhetorically. Switching my vote at this point.

UNVOTE: GammaEmerald

12. @Gamma, honestly as I write right now I can't remember why, but it was related to something you did in the first few pages, very weak. But for some reason I'm thinking you had a different avatar at the time...? (I get that it's not an earnest question but.)

13. Gamma is town.

14. Dan is having the same experience talking to Elsa as I did in my last game with them.

15. Titus knows Elsa (@188). I don't like their agreeing with ActionDan about Elsa. This looks like Titus is ignoring their knowledge of Elsa in order to mirror Dan.

16. A50 similarly being aggressive with Elsa doesn't make sense to me but now there's two people who know Elsa behaving strangely so maybe I'm the one who needs tuning~.

17. Don't understand Titus being aggressive with Cyrus @202

18. Titus' 209-210 seem authentic

19. Dunnstall asking NDMath about ActionDan is scummy (220)

20. Nero Cain's 270 calling Cyrus a hypocrite is weird. It's a really concretely rational way of responding to Cyrus, who is engaging with the thread playfully.

21. I'm confess I skipped A50's catchup 300+. I skipped to the end to geta TL;DR. I was surprised there was not one. This is fairly dissonant, suggestive of active lurking (because there's a barrier to engaging with him, but he's behaving as if he wants to be active and engage)

22. I think Dan's town.

23. HEM scummy in @381.

24. First official VC -- Dan, come vote HEM with me.

25. GE voting from HEM->A50 is fine.

26. Lucifer ilu hope you post more about whatever that's about tho (re: HEM vote).

27. HEM's 459-461 made me smile.

28. HEM's mass posting on page 19-20 doesn't make sense to me -- saying Elsa is town, but he's vaguely suspicious of people on Elsa's wagon, etc.

SUMMARY

A. I don't understand the Elsa wagon from people who know Elsa. (I can definitely understand Dan voting Elsa, but think this is due to Dan not knowing them.) I don't know what experience other players have with Elsa but think most know them.

B. I think Titus, Dan, Gamma are town. Cyrus and Elsa are probably town. Caveats: I've never played with Cyrus before (cf., lots of players allude to previous history with Cyrus as relevant for understanding Cyrus, and I'm missing all of that). I was also reminded of Elsa's early idealization of Titus when I previewed my post, so maybe I'm over-valuing what seems like opportunistic Elsa-voting.

C. I think HEM is scum. Their content is focused heavily on asking player X to reflect on player Y, rather than engaging with what players have already done in the game. Further, I have not noticed HEM make significant use of what comes from their pattern of inquiry. So, I think their behavior is motivated by wanting to appear interested in the game, without being interested in the game.

VOTE: HumanEatingMonkey

[Iecerint]

HEM saying Elsa is scum***** typo on my #28

[Iecerint]

A50 didn't appear to think you were scum in his spicy post about voting you (it read more like "Shape up!"), so I figured there was something else going on.

Pedit @Elsa

[Iecerint]

@Dan, re: Elsa, now that NDMath has answered, check out Redneck Mafia, where D1 I related to (town)Elsa in about the same way as I think you have today.

[Iecerint]

Scum cyrus posts a lot of shallow, short posts. He's much more rational than town him and tends to tunnel less. He doesn't throw out reads early on and when he fonaly does they are either completely unexplained or by just "vibes"

Apply this knowledge to what you think Cyrus's alignment is this game.

He's also very conscious about the votecount and hoe many votes he's at and tries to give fake helpfulness by warning people about quickhammers.

Similar to above: are you describing his play this game, how scum!Cyrus plays, or both?

[Iecerint]

19. Dunnstall asking NDMath about ActionDan is scummy (220)

Why is that scummy?

In general, if A asks town!B to think about C, this usually has the effect of B thinking A is more town and C is more scum, regardless of the alignments of the players involved. This is because B usually perceives that A has benign interest in them (which reads as town to most people), and that A already has suspicion of C. This can also lead B to attack C on behalf of A. Together, this has an average beneficial effect to A regardless of A's alignment, but the strategy is more beneficial for scum!A. So, that's why it's scummy. HEM has done this I think 3 times so far. Dunnstall did it once that I can remember. So, it's the pattern of inquiry rather than anything specific about you or Dan.

(There are other explanations for this pattern depending upon contextual factors. For example, A might be unable to feel interested in the game unless they're generating the activity being discussed, and use this as a way to motivate themselves. But in this case, town!A will follow-up on what's made from their question above to try to solve the game, which I don't see HEM as having done. Or, A might be town but very avoidant of conflict, and engage peripherally as a result, including via strategies like this. But, I don't get the impression that HEM is conflict-avoidant, because they have had a high level of activity and playful engagement with the thread.)

[Iecerint]

I assume from the thing you also realized I was town (when I mock did it myself)? I didn't discover it until late; impressed you got it right away. If I was scum I'd be jerking off in the PT. (as I assume you would)

You mean about not knowing default-scum-multitasking? No, I saw that as NAI, because I think you have enough meta-cognitive ability to go either way on that (cf., WIFOM). Instead, my townDan is from content subsequent to your push on Cyrus. Nothing specific comes to mind, but the list I made is ordinal so I/you could probably figure out which push led me to that conclusion by looking at the posts on either side of where I posted I thought you were town.

[Iecerint]

A. I don't understand the Elsa wagon from people who know Elsa. (I can definitely understand Dan voting Elsa, but think this is due to Dan not knowing them.) I don't know what experience other players have with Elsa but think most know them.

Explain A and explain your Elsa townread

People know Elsa. Elsa is behaving the same way he has in my previous Elsa!town games. So, people behaving as if Elsa's behavior makes him scum has not made sense.

(I was correct that it did not make sense, as it's become clear that some such behavior reflected spillover from ongoing games.)

[Iecerint]

Elsa continuing to harp on defending Kitty is weird.

[Iecerint]

His playstyle as Bambi is completely different IIRC my meta dive that previous game.

[Iecerint]

I mean I don't care. If Elsa is town, T3 takes a dive after.

I don't think that really follows, unless Normals don't allow this in 2021. I don't know how warped the Normal meta has become, in terms of things being "too zany for a Normal."

[Iecerint]

Its not actually, more a problem in single ball.

How do you figure? I think Elsa is right that bloodthirstiness points toward town, all things being equal, because both teams are happy to sheep it, and there are more total scum to sheep. I don't follow how HEM would be "gaslit" in this situation, though.

[Iecerint]

Within Dunnstral's pool, I think Gamma looks suspicious. In particular, I think Gamma's late-day comment about "please look at A50 when I die" both a) seemed affected in its AtE (e.g., because the frustration seemed out of proportion to how much Gamma had actually been pushing A50), and b) seemed out of date, because A50's main sketchy attack on Elsa had been clarified to involve irritability spilling over from another game.

For non-Elsa-Scum, I'm suspicious of HEM.

VOTE: Gamma

Pedit: Does "no result" mean "no gun" or "blocked"?

[Iecerint]

Nevermind that crumb thing, actiondan wouldn't have acted last night.

also what the hell does this mean

Look at Dan's role again

[Iecerint]

For non-Elsa-Scum, I'm suspicious of HEM.

You keep saying this since your entrance but I don't understand your case on me

I think you did not have much interest in discerning Elsa's alignment, which I think skews scummy. You did end up being correct about them, which I think decreases the chance that you're a Werewolf, but that doesn't apply to non-Werewolf scum.

[Iecerint]

why do you think your list is the be-all-end-all for werewolf hunting?

What do you think about their list?

[Iecerint]

On review I didn't really like his meta argument of calling Elsa town because of that. Like he argued with meta, but rather in a shallow manner ("people know Elsa, Elsa is behaving like in last game where he was town") without really giving any examples why this would mean why Elsa was town here too and why it was different from Elsa's scum meta.

Finally I have trouble following his progression on Gamma from town to scum. To be fair I am here just not sure if his change of mind feels constructed or I just don't understand it. He said Gamma's AtE in his "if he dies, it's A50" post is out of proportion, however I don't feel it's necessarily out of line of Gamma's personality considering how he generally seems to react to particular things of people he is familiar with.

@Iecrint:
Can you clarify on both points? I mean what made you in particular believe Elsa's town meta applied to this game and wasn't less likely to be scum and why Gamma EoD1 behaviour is overshadowing your initial townread on Gamma making you more likely lean scum on him.

1A. Elsa's D1 behavior is extremely similar to that of the game I linked to ActionDan. Specifically, he has a grandiose, emotional way of communicating as Elsa that reads scummy (to me, at least). I'm pretty sure it's put-on by Elsa, because they don't do the same behavior as Bambi Jay, which contributes to it coming off as inauthentic/scummy. Dan doesn't know Elsa and reacted to it the same way that I did in my previous game with Elsa.
1B. Multi-scum is distinguished at a meta-level by a generalized bloodthirstiness. This is because scum can help with scumhunting, but they care less about accuracy.
=>Given 1A and 1B and the high level of enthusiasm for Elsa-wagon despite a weak case, I concluded that both scumteams were pushing Elsa, which led me to conclude Elsa was probably town.

Elsa did do a couple of things that made me say probably town rather than firmly town. First, their idealization of Titus early on seemed forced to me, even for Elsa. Second, their continuing to harp on Kitty SIMULTANEOUS WITH presenting a "reasonable" face (for Elsa) did not make sense, because tunneling on the Kitty topic single-mindedly would match an emotionally dysregulated Elsa, not a calm one. But, it was enough that I would have preferred another elimination to Elsa's.

2. Elsa's flip is the additional piece of the puzzle. It changes the meaning of Gamma's pattern of pushes D1. D1 I townread him in part because he seemed to be "reasonably" looking at other possibilities given the basis of Elsa-wagon being weak. But that's a much weaker towntell given Elsa flipped Werewolf.

[Iecerint]

Catching up

[Iecerint]

VOTE: Arcangel

I think their D2 catch-up post that starts with quoting Dunn about "scum knowing the town well" is extremely vapid/IIOA. Their stance toward Gamma doesn't make any sense -- seeming to want Gamma to engage with them ("who do you think is the scum gamma") but then not appearing concerned with Gamma not wanting to play (ignoring that Gamma posts to say something vapid). If she is scum, I suspect her scumfriend was already on Gamma-wagon, given the roundabout way she communicated a desire to join the wagon.

[Iecerint]

Gamma wagon when she was reticent: [Iecerint], cyrus62, Andresvmb, Dunnstral, [nomnomnom]

That would mean the buddy is probably Cyrus or Andres.

Disclaimer: I haven't played with AA in a very long time and don't remember if there's something idiosyncratic about how they play that accounts for their behavior.

[Iecerint]

Like I think it's p clear that Titus and arc are scum and that's where we should be eliminating in b/c if they flip different factions then I'm pretty much clear.

I don't follow the logic for Titus, or which logic makes you think this is true of Arc (like, I know why I think it, but I'm not sure why you do).

[Iecerint]

Calling you on your bullshit is a thing and bullshit from Titus is scum titus

OK.

[Iecerint]

I voted for Gamma because of how they defended Elsa Jay - I would have done the same in almost any circumstance, because I felt that was particularly incriminating. I feel Iecerint and cyrus62 fit a bit of the same bill. And I found them somewhat Scummy for other reasons.

Why did you think I was scummy re: "other reasons"?

IIRC in your N1 you said that you only thought I was scum with Dan, who you said you thought was town, which didn't make much sense.

[Iecerint]

It's true that Andres (and I) joined the game to play with Dan. I doubt he would kill Dan if scum in this situation (like, I'd suspect he wants to play with Dan more than he wants to win, even if scum), though he could be on whichever team didn't kill Dan.

[Iecerint]

"Simple" seems very weak in this set-up given the flips and claimed roles so far, especially with limited-shot being added.

With the knowledge that the neighborhood exists, I think A50's behavior is null (unless the neighborhood is all town, and then his prior probability of being town is low, anyway). This is because scumA50 would already be aware of the neighborhood and would have the information necessary to play this out.

[Iecerint]

Wait, I take that back. It does make sense with this set-up.

I've never played with this modifier before and I read a little more of the wiki about it.

[Iecerint]

But that's a horseton of investigative power for town.

[Iecerint]

Oh wait nevermind, doctor wouldn't apply, so it's very weak again.

My imagination went wild on it being a faux-investigative role.

[Iecerint]

Like I think it's p clear that Titus and arc are scum and that's where we should be eliminating in b/c if they flip different factions then I'm pretty much clear.

I don't follow the logic for Titus, or which logic makes you think this is true of Arc (like, I know why I think it, but I'm not sure why you do).

I think Titus calling it a gulity and then cheerleading was false bravado. She hasn't really stopped to think about it. I mean, I guess I'm kinda like the proper town play would be to understand that as soon as I claimed and kitty confirmed to understand that there's not a guilty on me. I know Titus said a few posts ago that she didn't know if it was a guilty. I think arc's posting where she claims to not understand and hasn't gotten "clarity" despite it having been explained multiple times seems fake. I also feel like she's being very selective in what she is responding to.

Like it's one thing to say that Nero is scummy for X so we are voting him and Nero has a "gulity" but ignore the reason why a50 got that result. I mean arc is way more gulity of that then Titus but I just get the same vibe from both of them that they aren't hunting and comfortable with the game state and that's not town play, imho

This makes sense to me.

[Iecerint]

I am not sure if the guilty is real. Regardless of alignment, Nero has a habit of FoSing when I FoS him.

I need to look at Nero's relationship with Kitty. Not mentioning Andres is reasonable given his lack of presence.

Like I think Titus is smarter than this and would realize that a50 getting the result he got while im in a hood means it's not a gulity but she's saying that she's "not sure" and I think it's a load of BS. Also just lol @voting me and calling it an FOS. Like she's sitting on a growing bandwagon in the hopes that I just get eliminated. Town Titus would be more thoughtful.

I moved to arc but if you wanted to move over to Titus then I'd move back or Cyrus and Tessa could just move over here

Which is less likely: Arc being actually confused as town, or Titus not getting it as town?

This isn't rhetorical -- I'm really not sure and don't remember Arc's play that well before when I used to play. I remember thinking Titus was pretty clearly town D1.

[Iecerint]

Going to claim here since no one is engaging me on Test. I am a two shot rolecop. I held my shot night 1. I checked Tess night 2. I checked her because of her vote pattern.

Tess is very likely guilty.

She came back full role cop.

wtf

[Iecerint]

You're just coicidentally claiming you checked me because you know I checked you. It's a goal to survive.

You also imply that you have additional shots, which would be more than what has flipped.

Testarossa, why didn't you come out with a guilty like what Titus did? You're selling the situation like you had her checked and it's a guilty, but Titus had beat you to the punch.

This makes sense.

[Iecerint]

VOTE: Testarossa

I agree with Titus's logic about the timing of Testarossa pushing Titus back not making sense. I think Testarossa's reason for delaying the claim at the start of the day doesn't make sense. In addition to what others have said, I think Testarossa's logic for not claiming their N1 target does not make sense, since almost all of the game has claimed at this point.

Titus is confirmed scum if Testarossa is somehow town, because Titus'd be lying about being limited-shot.

[Iecerint]

Titus could be otherscum if Testarossa flips scum (i.e., it would mean Titus is either town or otherscum).