Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)

[SpyreX]

Hey everyone. Teach me to offer to replace in before I check the game. I've got some reaaading to catch up on.

[SpyreX]

I'm only on page 5 or so and I'm already shaking my head. A semantic argument about eeny meeny miney moe? Really fellas?

[SpyreX]

Up to page 15.. woo nelly - teach me to replace in not knowing anything.

Just so I can look here while I'm going along. Is there any "confirmed" townies?

[SpyreX]

Thank you.

I'll post as I go along (with the understanding that things may change as I read more).

Here's a question for ya:

Day one I've been looking for connections and I've found a pretty DUH one of three people so far. Khelvaster - BM - Imat. Khelvaster was godfather, BM was Drug Dealer (scum, I'm assuming - not that far yet) - why the hell is Imat(Bogre?) still around?

Still reading.

[SpyreX]

Well I'll be. Scratch that then. He actually WAS a miller.

[SpyreX]

Ohh, so green is town and red is not-town. Gotcha. Helps to pay attention to the pretty colors.

[SpyreX]

Well, assuming the green is town, I could see "Drug Dealer" being millery.

Page 35! Only...100 more to go. *cry*

[SpyreX]

Page 72, still churning along.

I cant believe that everyone was so quick to lynch Russo for targeting a miller (getting a guilty regardless) yet the next day this push on BM is now stemming from him being cult meaning Russo was correct... there's something fishy going on with this mess.

[SpyreX]

Up to 82... I can almost see light at the end of the tunnel.

This little comment wont come as a surprise to Arm - Metas, again, are retarded. Looks like this game they've been used to hurt the town quite a bit.

[SpyreX]

I'm getting there, ohh lord I'm getting there. Page 101. The numbers are dwindling and I'm actually starting to get some solid GOOD vibes from people as well as the scummy ones.

I -may- actually give a large post today. If not, tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

113 - BM, were you taking your own drugs this game? Seriously - either you were a miller/hider/SOMETHING ELSE or you lied about being a hider for no reason and you were town?

BAH.

[SpyreX]

I've caught up. Ohh lordy, I've caught up!

I am now officially mentally drained though - I've got some suspects and some huge questions (surprise!) that will go up in the next day or so.

So, some real questions for everyone pertinent to today... why is there so much speed on this Celeb lynch and why haven't the players who just kind of jumped on not have real scrutiny? Hell, look at page 133. There's what, 5? 6? votes on Celeb coming in rapid succession there?

[SpyreX]

I function a little better now after that massive reread yesterday. In a little bit I'm going to give some of the people that I have gotten some serious scummy vibes from.

However, there's something that worries me some, and really gets me today with those sneaky votes.

The TOWN has managed to kill ONE scum - and that was K7 which wasn't all that hard. We really need to ALL start being a bit more vocal and find something to really push - some of these cases have been pretty ridiculous.

Now, logically, there is a good chance that Celeb IS scum (from his play / from the RB last night). However, there was some rapid and opportunistic voting around it - we damn well need to watch that because, at the current rate, it could very well be lylo really soon.

I'll be back in a bit with my suspects.

[SpyreX]

I'm scummy for thinking the most obvious path for what happened last night is the correct one? Or, is there something else in that statement that is secretly scummy?

[SpyreX]

As for my top suspect (I swear to God if the word "meta" is used to defend some of these actions I'll just explode)

Number One WITH A BULLET:

Vote: Toaster Strudel.

Her play has been, erratic, to say the least. She has had a few major changes in opinion that have felt like they were there simply to push lynches forward.

Why on Earth would a player investigate a claimed miller? In case he gets an innocent result?

There is zero game logic in investigating a Miller.

I buy neither the claim, nor the night choice.

armlx: I totally agree with you. When CKD backed off from obvscum Rosso Carne, my scumdar set off sparks and caught fire. It's either of two things: he's defending a buddy, or he's scum knowing that Rosso is town.

If Rosso is town, CKD is scum. If Rosso is scum, CKD is scum.

I want to lynch Rosso, I want to lynch CKD

, so much scum, so few lynches.

I totally would, except that Rosso's claim is totally preposterous, his night choices are a joke,

and now to boot I really like that point that he might be the delayed cult recruit

. Claiming cult cop, BS night choices, it makes sense.

Let me add this twist:
If RC is town,

BM is almost definitely town

,

and CKD is most definitely scum.

If RC is scum, BM is still potentially scum, and CKD is still potentially scum.

And the odds of you being

rosso's investigation and happening to be the delayed recruit are pretty damn tiny.

(TSPN)
Is that yet another reason why Rosso's claim is rubbish?

Any of the players not voting for

that no-brainer

, shooting fish in a barrel Rosso wagon

is a good vig choice

.

What??? This is like yesterday's SK lynch. It's a

total no-brainer

. Rosso is clearly making things up, and the things he's making up are not remotely believable. How could he NOT vote for Rosso? How could YOU not???

Why is

everyone so obsessed with directing the vig

? The vig can be trusted to know what he's doing. They've obviously been reading the thread so far.

(Peers)
QFT

Indeed, and I am EXTREMELY leery of the Miller/Hider claim, that's the kind of claim that's just tooooo scummalicious.
The Miller/Hider claim explains two of the problems that scum might encounter in a game. The first problem is that they may be investigated and found guilty. Conveniently, BM declared himself a miller. The second problem is that the scum must explain his continued survival night after night. This is especially important if we have living vig, and the miller doesn't get nigthkilled and continues to live. So "hider" and "miller" makes a perfect combo for a scum claim.

Also, I see BM is very active and scheming. That's his scum persona, not his town persona.

The Miller/Hider claim is the real clincher. I don't believe it.

I believe that BM is just plain scum.

For clarity's sake.
Normally, one would expect a cult cop to get a "guilty" on cults, and "not guilty" on non-cults. However, Rosso seems to have gotten a "guilty" on a miller

-

but I too would expect that a miller would be innocent to a cult cop.

However, BM was guilty to Rosso. This must mean that BM was culted. A culted miller/hider? That cannot be suffered to live.

There must always be pressure on CKD.

He cracks easily.

We're worried about a cultist, BM was guilty to the cult cop, we have a probable poisoner-cult,

and we're not lynching BM.

Oh no, we want MORE BM!!! Not less!
This whole farside vigging BM to prove that a miller who has been found guilty by the cult cop is indeed a hider, is absolutely preposterous.
Since he can only hide on alternate days, if BM is proven to be a hider-miller, he'll be killed by the mafia for (1) being proven innocent "sort of" or (2) being cult.
Is BM worth all this trouble since he's going to die anyway???
Is any Miller worth all this trouble?

Is any Miller found guilty by a CULT cop worth it?

How this game got to revolve around BM this, and BM that, like a freakin' Miller is the most valuable role ever is making me cry.

We want to keep a culted miller around???

He's guilty to a cult cop, which means he's culted.

Exactly. I'm totally not feeling the CKD-loathing in this game.

Can someone explain why we're not lynching WhoMe?

Guys, it's only day 4, we've got 130 pages, let's stop spamming and lynch WhoMe already

.

Now, why this is scum play, color coded:

1.)

Dark Red

- When pushing for the Russo lynch, it is apparent that investigating a miller is ridiculous because they would not get an innocent regardless. However, this thought process changed very rapidly when, right after, she started pushing on BM because of the same result.
2.)

Orange

- Its obvious that, at this point, she is convinced CKD is scum. This is repeated MORE than once throughout the game yet, later, she says she doesn't see the CKD-loathing.
3.)

Green

- Claiming Russo is the delayed cult recruit (which then is pushed to BM).
4.)

Violet

- This one is another amazing one. She says that if Russo is town, BM is probably town. Then, when Russo comes up town, she starts using Russo's result (which again she had problems with) as a focus for her attack on BM (who she said was probably town)
5.)

Indigo

- Repeatedly calling the lynch a no-brainer and comparing it to the SK lynch (especially considering it was town) really struck me as an odd set of statements.
6.)

Cyan

- Threatening other people with the vig for not following the "no-brainer" then, later, saying directing the vig is a bad idea.
7.)

Brown

- Again, powerpushing for a lynch which, in reading, was weak.

So, you've got someone who's been active in pushing lynches even when they dont agree with previous statements as well as altering her viewpoints of key parts of it to push said lynches.

Yes, of course, in a game this big your thoughts on things will change - however, all of these reek of opportunism AND the fact that it has been push after push for townies doesn't help.

That took a lot of time. I'll give you some other suspects later, but lord, this was the queen mother (and, when I'm right, I'll hand you another tomorrow).

[SpyreX]

*explodes*

That is all.

[SpyreX]

So....nothing about my case on TS?

No comments, refutions, declarations of me being scum, holding me on a magic throne, nothin?

[SpyreX]

I feel like I'm having the same discusison in multiple games.

If you want me to read it, give me a link. I'll read em, and if you're trying to get me to look at what I am I'll tell you now what I'll say.

They were scummy that game and they're scummy this game. I would have hung them in that game and I, based on this game, want them hung here.

Being scummy as a meta is not an excuse.

[SpyreX]

Ok, so I read the games.

1 - Town, Jaw Droppingly So.
2 - Town
3 - 50/50 (leaning town a little)
4 - Probably Scum (wrong)

So, I was unable to make a read one game (but was right) and was wrong one game.

Meta's are retarded, but even based on that I DO NOT see her play this game matching any of those games where she was town. So, by your own argument she would be scum (not that I would use it, but)

MY feelings about this game stand and this doesn't really alter that too much.

[SpyreX]

That first game it was obvious from her play. The second one, too. The third game was a lot more agressive and harder to read and the last one had that damn scumputer which, of course, as it went on made me think it was scum.

[SpyreX]

TS is a good lynch because she's been unbelievably opportunistic to the point of changing major opinions to fit the lynch choice of the day.

[SpyreX]

Ok, am I losing it or was there a hammer? Is this all twilight or what?

[SpyreX]

Hmm, perhaps, just perhaps... we could go ahead and lynch TS like I suggested yesterday? Or we can filibuster and kill another townie, either way.

Vote: TS

When she flips up scum, I've got another one, good chance on another two.

[SpyreX]

@Tar,

Its been a bit, can you give me a recap on CKD?

Do you think TS is scummy?

[SpyreX]

Are we in some kinda scum-olympics all of a sudden?

I'll switch back to CKD if the TS wagon dies down.

What? Why would you announce jumping wagons at this point like that?

CKD, I've seen your play enough that you *know* about some of my oddities/bad habits as town.
Care to point out the parts of my play that don't fit my town meta?

Ok, someone defending someone else based on "meta" is retarded. TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITH META AGAINST A BASELESS VOTE IS FLABBERGASTING.

I knew Tar would find a reason to once again jump on the major wagon..
unvote, vote tar.

Its like a double backflip secret OMGUS when they're voting for someone else. Dance the dance.

interesting Matt, you press a case yesterday (all day) against Cele...you scream and beg for people to listen to you. You attack me for my skitzer vote, you soft claim something (I know I know, not cop)..and then I listen to you because I think you are on to something...and we lynch a townie.
I fucking notice you didnt attack my vote yesterday when I place it....also, I note you dont mention your particular record in voting out townies...care to compare?..or should I?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at with this - it seems like just red-noise (noise filled with hate).

everyone matt s has declared scum has flipped town.

As has everything thats happened this game since day 1. You come out of the woodwork for this?

I, personally, would like Matt to just lay out his whole deal and why Skitz and Kalidescope are town. We're throwing out conjectures now and that's not going to help move this forward.

TS is still scum - but until we unweave these threads we're not going to make any progress. Considering how badly this game, overall, has been going we need to turn it around and start powerlynching scum or we will lose.

[SpyreX]

Matt_S had already hinted/softclaimed.

Two nights later he's still not dead.

Yea? I could see a lot of reasons why this might be (not even including letting you make this statement now). This is some terrible WIFOM.

Thats ok, you're still scum so we're cool.

[SpyreX]

A personal jab and a disregard. Nicely played.

I'll dance though -

What is the actual case on Matt from you? Considering he's said they're all masons, if he was lying they would come out and say so... or, three scum have just outed themselves.

Now for my bit of WIFOM - if I was scum, WHY would I clear 3 players at this juncture. Leave em there, pick off some power roles and, when the timing is right, kill them one by one (unless you think they're masons with power roles on top of it).

Especially with the way this game has went - its not like the maf are on the verge of losing FFS.

Also, since I am dancing, anything at all to say about what I had to say about you way back when?

[SpyreX]

If I'm wrong I'd be very surprised, but none of these last posts feels sincere in the least.

I'm not buying the emovote or WIFOM defense. Especially since this didn't really flare up until now.

[SpyreX]

All I see is she is taking things personal once again, but whatever. We have a different view and I will leave it at that.

What I meant is none of the last posts by TS feel sincere at all.

In fact I'm going to take it a couple steps further. TS is now emovoting - this serves two great purposes for the scum depending on how it goes:

1.) It gets people to remove their votes in response (see farside)
2.) If people don't remove their votes, it gets the day ended fast before the town can pull more information together.

Now, more than once I've said if TS is scum I'll hand you another one, if not two - the connections are pretty obvious and I'll go hunt them down if need be. But, the other two that I would be VERY sure of if TS IS scum are Korlash and Armlx.

Korlash, after this debacle, jumped in with a very weak argument. I dont think for a second he thought it was going to build any steam - what it does do, however, is deflect from TS.

We're late in the game and we haven't hit anything for a while. The scum can afford to be a little bit more ballsy and that is exactly what this is.

As for the Matt_S issue - Matt, I'll ask directly: Are you a mason with Skitzer and KScope? If yes, this is well and good and all three need to just claim. If no, explain yourself today so this is cleared up.

TS is the lynch for today. If I'm right, and I think I am, I'm going to go ahead and call the next tomorrow - believe you me I'll get the case together (its been pretty obvious since the reread). Lets not let the game die down this time and push ahead.

[SpyreX]

I'll be God, thats fine with me. I'm honestly not sure why I got so much vitriol from my statements, but hey, I'll roll with it.

I don't give a damn who it reflects from. I saw a person slip and admit something that isn't right for town to know. You talk about not hitting anything for a while? it's probably because people like you play the hits off as foul balls.

The crux of this seems to be two parts:
1.) Suyre said TS was wrong, not that he

thought

she was wrong or anything else which implies that he has knowledge that town wouldn't have.
2.) Matt_S has softclaimed a role that has not been reciprocated by either of the other two "masons" - this I agree with and that is why I asked Matt and one of them to directly say it.
So, no, I'm not seeing this as a "hit".

And how dare you even think to know what I thought. this is the first damn time I've ever had to type out your name and you think you know me? I'm sorry, i didn't know you were God. Should I bow? Seriously, ever post I make I excpect to "make steam." granted sometimes that steam is only laughter and children singing in joy, but its still steam. I don't post in this increasingly less intellegent forum every day for my own health you know.

You're right, I dont know you. I dont need to know you to see that for the majority of this game you've cracked jokes and, really, not said too much until today when you've come out guns-a-blazin' on this case during the TS debacle which, oddly enough, is a defense and a deflection from TS.

Oh and before I get lost in my own rant, this last post of yours is deflecting from Surye, who I must say has some explaining to do. So pardon me if your point where your calling me a black kettle doesn't upset me a little.. and get me... (sick double pun here ladies and gentlemen) steamed... *pause for laughter* ha ha ha.. ahhh... dude... that was so worth the fake rant... ha ha ha...

I'm not defending Surye, I'm not voting or doing anything else. Keep on keepin' on with what you're doing. TS is scum, and yes, when she comes up scum you're next. (OHH NOES I SAID IS SCUM WHICH IMPLIES I HAVE KNOWLEDGE FROM THIRD PARTY SOURCES).

Let me guess... it's me isn't it? ohhhh!!! *giddy* can't wait to shove that one up your ass! but tomorrow shall wait!

Yep. I'm not sure what you plan to shove up my ass about that. I thought it was pretty clear.

On the TS wagon, self vote is bad. shame... SHAME! But.. yes there is always a but... It did follow a pretty intense cat fight that had gotten more then a little personal. So the "emovote" as you put it was more likely a sign of pridely refusing to play anymore. Which is not a factor of alignment. Personal grudges that cause you to wimp out on games will effect you the same way as town and scum, so to say this makes her scum is just more BS. So I'm afraid I will have to disagree that she is today's lynch for sure and all that.

Yes, there was a catfight that was started by TS. I dont know if I'd say it was intense or not, but it was there.

If I hadn't thought TS was scum from when I first came into this game, yes, it would have played a role in thinking this was just "pride" or whatever else it was. However, she HAS been scummy well before this and, honestly, how the hell does this not become an issue in a game running this long until this point? It does not feel geniune.

If you honestly think I'm saying the emovote is why she is scum, well, I can't help you. Its just icing on the already large cake.

So username who I will forever be sarcastically calling God forever and ever and ever... and ever and ever and ever... (cut that part out to make shorter) ... and ever and ever, why are you so insistant to overlook current events to make your "case" on TS? Also explain to me where my first vote on a wagon case was weak. I've seen better bandwagons started for a quarter of what I provided. Also, explain how you can call me scum for pointing out a scummy action, then say we haven't hit anything for a while. (I know I already said that, but I think it's so good you need to answer it twice.)

How am I overlooking current events to make my insert sarcastic quotes here case on TS?

Here's how it went down from my reading:

1.) Day starts out and I vote again for TS (like I've done since I came in and will continue to do barring someone claiming scum).
2.) Wagon starts forming.
3.) TS mostly jokes around, then brings up blindly believing the masons as a bad idea (which is true).
4.) TS makes the statement that Matt had claimed and still isn't dead as, apparently, not him being scum but.. ?
5.) Farside votes TS.
6.) Catfight starts.
7.) TS brings up scum masons as a possible solution (possible, but not probable).
8.) Emovote.
9.) You come in with your single longest post in this entire game attacking Suyre with what STILL is a very weak attack.

Now, I'd seen connections between TS-Arm and TS-you long before this. Until this whole deal, I wasn't sure what to make of the you-TS (since really you just joke a lot and seem to just have fun playing) connection I saw - however, the fact that you've altered your play this game to come out at the time you did regarding what you did increases the connection I see between the two of you.

So, yes, TS is scum and when she flips such you are also scum to me. Of course I'm not God - I could be wrong, but the evidence this game points me to this conclusion.

I really dont care if Surye agrees with me or not about Matt_S - I am fully in favor for that whole mass fullclaiming so there can be no question about the ties between them and, depending on how the game goes, one can be probed for the alignment of the others.

[SpyreX]

It's a defense sure, but it's not deflecting anything. if your case against her is so weak that I'm able to derail it with one point then obviously it was crap to begin with. Your putting too much into this "deflection thing" and not enough into the more obviousl simple defense thing. it's only natural that someone's case gets refuted, and that is what I am doing here.

No, my case was back when I first joined in (my post 14). The one with all the pretty colors.

Why are you even defending her, though? Let her defend herself unless you are sure she is town - that and again the timing of when you jumped in is suspect.

I said knowing someone is town means you have inside knowledge... nice way to show your stupidity.

And um... yeah... attacking me by calling my case weak and only a deflection from TS is defending Surye. Perhaps not intentionally no... but it still is. And of course by your logic if he does flip scum, you should be next yes?

I'm making fun of the fact it is the statement of "She is wrong" versus "I think she is wrong" that you've taken umbrage with - I think it is a very weak semantic argument. So, ya, I must sure have been being stupid there and not snide.

That is why the case is weak. And, yes, I fully expect one or more people to jump on me if Suyre is scum because of this interplay.

Probably the fact that I'm town and your going to use another person's proposed alignment to call my lynched days in avanced. Added onto that the relationship I have with the deceased makes most, not all, but most interations between us moot. And of course that fact that your case so far against me is that I appear to be deflecting from TS, which... "definitly makes me scum" doesn't it. /sarcasm

Go read my case, MY case on TS. If you think its because of the deflecting here, no. That just further confirmed prior suspicions is all.

Oh I'm sorry God... i forgot you know everything! Your feelings are symbols of truth! You cannot possible be mistaken as it is a human characteristic! All hail the all-knowing this guy! /hails

Your going to lynch someone over feelings? And you call my case weak.

No, I'm not lynching because of that. I said that interplay does not feel geniune. Thats all. Lord, if I was pushing a lynch solely on that then yea, you might have something.

I'll give you that one. It can't be your only reason.

I notice in your list you didn't include Surye's vote, but included Farsides... something going on there? Or was it just not important?

I didn't include most of the votes. Farsides was included specifically because, right after, was the start of the "catfight".

And whats your point about my longest post? Are you trying to say that makes any difference in the matter? You think it's bad that I am finally participating? What?

No, its not that you've "finally" decided to participate. It is the nature of the change and the timing of the change that makes me question it.

You would probably see the same connections between us in other games. Providing we are talking about the same connections here. Which ones are you refering too?

Mostly the way you talk and yes, I could see that to some degree being due to the fact you've been here so long. I am not going to get into detail until this is resolved one way or the other because, frankly, I dont want to derail this lynch or bog the game down. If it really needs to happen, I'll go through and hunt down all the specifics that I saw.

it's ironic how we each accuse the other of a connection and we each resort to trying to cut that tie. We are more alike then you think oh great and powerful one.

There is a mirror between what we've done in this, and I expect there to be ramifications one way or the other as it plays out.

But, honestly, the God thing isn't really funny to me. I think I've said all I need to about this for now and if something comes up sure I'll respond but being a condescending dick about this all isn't really "fun" for me. So, there ya have it.

@Arm

I dont want to have this all derail - tomorrow (gameday-wise) one way or another I'll explain what I've seen.

[SpyreX]

Definitely. You'll get it unless I'm dead.

[SpyreX]

I'm presuming it has to do with the fact that we both are defending her.

To a degree, yes. Thats a given in any game. Partially its the fact that I know you're both solid players and I got nothing when I put up my first case on her. Also, its been the bi-directional interplay between each of you and her this whole game (yea, I replaced in and read the whole damn thing).

If this point keeps getting pushed, I'll do it today. I really didn't even want to bring it up until TS was lynched ever (notice that all along I've said I had connections to her). The reason is, of course, I need her alignment to be sure about what I've seen - but, I'll sit and do a reread and another probably color coded meeegaaaapost if thats what it takes.

Honestly, nothing I said when I first replaced in about her play ALL game has changed - today has just been more of the same.

I haven't changed my playstyle. Throughout that entire Surye discussion I kept putting in jokes like I always did. The only thing different is the length of my post, which is in no way a playstyle change.

I know we haven't played together, but give me a little more credit than this. In 71 posts in this game only one other time did you do anything that amounted to a case (post 6) - and that was more a general input of the game. This is the first time you've really sat down and put together a whole case on a singular person with a vote attached - and, frankly, the timing and the nature of the attack was suspect.

That is the change in playstyle I was talking about.

I will address your issues, though.

1: You come at me saying I am trying to Deflect from TS. This is not the case, I was simply following a lead where I saw a person vote for reasons I think were crap. There is no defense involved here, that came out of the situational specifics. Much like you attacking me, situationally defended Surye. You did not intend for it, nor do did you intend for it to derail whatever attack was going on at him? You have severely undermined my entire point, and tried to force it to appear like I was defending someone and not attacking someone.

Agreed. The nature of what we were doing led to this and I am more than willing to drop it for the time being.

You say we are late in the game and have not hit anything in a while. You then attack me for trying to follow a lead. It seems a contradiction to me, hence why I may have gotten a little upset. All your saying here is that we (the town) have not gotten any real leads in a while, oh look! that guy found one! he must be scum for doing it!

Ok, now we'll argue about the truth of these statements, but here's a quick version of my thought process:

1.) TS is scum
2.) I've seen connections between you and TS.
3.) An actual wagon starts to form
4.) You come in attacking Suyre for his vote with, to me, what is weak (I'll get into why I feel that case was weak after).
---a.) This attack, timing wise, serves as a solid derail.
---b.) This attack, from what I've seen of you this game, does not follow your normal patter of play.
5.) This further cements my connections and makes me make the statement: "if TS is scum, Korlash is scum." (I'll leave arm for a different time."

Now, why I thought that case was weak:

See they don't all have to be scum. The beauty of being scum is if only one survives, they can still win. So, hypothetically, if matt is scum and calls two town town. He effectivly confirms himself in our eyes should one or both of them die, while systematically dragging one or both with him should he die. So the trio does not all have to be scum. Saying they are all confirmed town simply because they cannot all be scum seems stupid until we have some other form of confirmation.

A given, except for the fact Matt had implicitly (and finally explicitly) claimed mason. In order for that to work, unless you believe a scum mason (which is an out Matt denied himself), the others would either have to lie to us or, in fact, be scum. This is the point Surye made. I do agree we need further confirmation, but for now if all three say they are masons and confirmed town to each other that is enough at this point.
This'll be relevant to the next part:

TS on the other hand is being pretty irrational, and even worse, is playing that dance where you cast large amounts of doubt, see if anyone bites, and if no one does, saying "I never said they were scum!".

You were pretty clearly setting up Matt_s as scum, and as I stated, I believe this is most definitely false. And it's not because you are wrong that I am about to vote you, but because when no one agreed, you act as if that was not your intent at all.

Now I admit the "I'm not saying he is scum" isn't the most pro-town thing TS has ever muttered, but I can't see how it is an overly scummy thing either. Questioning why a claimed power role (or semi-claimed, or partly claimed, or whatever the hell he is) is still alive and a vanilla town was killed instead is a very viable argument. Have we been treating matt as anything less of a claimed town? In fact, if him skitzer and Kscope are all town, then why are the mafia not systematically killing them off? They choose to let three town live that can potentially confirm each other live while they kill off vanilla townies thus making the list of names to hide in that much smaller? And theres no WIFOM involved. You have a claimed vig sitting over there that is the best choice for doc protection, the scum have no fear of their kills being stopped if they choose between the three "masons" now do they?

I brought this up before this post, and it had been brought up before - until the town is sure they are masons, the mafia will not kill them. They are a potential mislynch AND by killing other players they may hit a true power role. Now that we've reached the point that they will come out confirmed, the others will die soon. And, although not true WIFOM, it is hard to swallow "The masons have not been killed, therefore they are scum."

And lastly, "it is not becuase you are wrong." you seem pretty confident about that Slappy. are you saying you know that Matt and his gang are who they say they are?

This, which became a huge bone of contention in your discussions, really sat as off from me from the beginning. The first sentence underlined sets up the premise (I believe this to be defintiely false) of the part you took as knowing via third-party information (Its not because you are wrong). This, really, really seemed like a stretch to me.

3: You claim I have changed my playstyle. Now I go back to your original post where you mention the length of my case. This has given me the impression you factor my entire change in playstyle down to length, which is BS. Now your also trying to link me and TS, which obviously means you have seen connections between us in the past yes? So how can my playstyle be changed if I am following a recurring pattern of connections? Also, if you mean the change was me going from jokes to real case, then why are you upset? Your last post shows you do not think we have found any leads in a while, so me finding one should be a welcome change.

I mentioned this above. Its not a function of length, its a function of timing and content. Its also not a function of changing your connections to TS, its actually a reinforcement.

However:

I will do ANOTHER reread and make sure its not simply you and TS being friends or whatever I've seen. Who did you replace in for again so I dont have to hunt it down?

4: You called my case weak. I mean thats just mean. What had I ever done to you before that? To my knowledge this is the first vote put on Surye this game. At least since I replaced in. So it definitly isn't going to be super rock hard solid. And considering my case boiled down to a: A slip I thought I saw, which if it was true would be a very strong scum point, and B: My own opinions on why one action he has called scummy is in fact pro-town. Sure it's not much, and yes one point was refuted, but at the time I fully believed them both. (granted, I'm not going to try and saythis here makes you scum. No, it's more of the way I saw things happening, and hence my moodiness.)

I feel it is weak. Thats not a personal attack, I just think that two points in one post with 145 pages is not going to make a case I'm going to get behind in and of itself. You yourself say its not much. If it was a matter of the term weak, well, I didn't mean it as any personal affront.

5: You have done one of the most scummy things I have ever seen. You have effectively linked me and TS in such a way that you claim should TS be scum I must automatically be lynched! You are not only trying to set up future lynches, which this close to deadline is very, very not so good town, but you are also so bold as to factor in someone's alignment in your case while that alignment is unknown. And yes, to say I will be tomorrows lynch if TS is scum IS pushing my lynch based off her alignment. In fact, should she flip scum I would think you would be the more obvious lynch candidate simply because you were trying to use her alignment as an attack this early and set up future lynches.

Yes, what I've done can easily be seen as scummy - however, you're assuming I'm not going to back it up. If I'm right about TS, which I think I am, I will post all my evidence on why I'm linking the two of you and use that for a lynch. I will not back down from it though: I am saying, barring events that really alter my perception of the game, if I am right about TS I will be pursuing you and Arm very, very hard. I also know that this is going to make me a lynch candidate the whole time and, well, its going to come down to who ends up on the rope. So, yes, in most instances this is scummy (which is why I didn't want to bring it up until I was sure about TS) but with the timing of your vote on Suyre I felt it relevant.

6: You know answer Arm by saying you do not want this to derail. But recently you told me there was no way I could derail this because you had more against TS then I was refuting. So why are you afraid of it being derailed? Why are you afraid to go further into our partnership links? is it because you realized like I did how scummy that makes you? Or is it because the only real thing you have is the fact my attack just happened to defend her, and you know that that just isn't good enough?

I dont want this to derail because, really, I'm staking my life on TS being scum. I do not want to have this spiral out of control while I'm debating with both you and Arm at the same time. I'm not afraid to go further into the links I've seen - its just a matter of timing and rereading (thats going to be a LOT of damn work and rereading if I am wrong about TS and, well, I'm lazy on some level).

You've got no reason to believe it, but every time I've said if TS is scum I've got one, maybe two its been you and Arm I've been talking about. If this day hadn't went this way (and TS) was lynched I'd have done exactly what I'm saying I'm goign to do tomorrow - show why I think both of you are connected to her and vica-versa.

So as you see from you I've gotten the feeling you keep altering events to force me to look like scum. You seem to take my action, twist it into the scummiest thing you can make it look like, and set it out there while simultaneously accusing me of doing the exact same things you yourself are doing. And so yes, I admit I got a little hot under the collar and I do apologize, but I am getting seriously tired of this happening to me in almost every game I’m in. I understand I have crap logic at times, and am wrong on more then one occasion but I can ma

Damn, the Goblins must have got ya. Another good solider lost..in mid sentence .

I'm really not trying to alter events - my feelings on you DO hinge, for the most part, on TS being scum. However, the only other bone of contention was about your case which, really, I didn't feel was strong.

So, yes, thats where we sit. TS is, for me, the lynch for today. If I am wrong, well, then I'm probably dead after all this. if I'm right, expect me to show how the two of you are connected.

[SpyreX]

However, what if matt is a scum mason, and the other two are town. Then for him to say his pm clears the others means nothing. So until the other two specifically tell us that there is reason to believe each other is town, and that there is some implication that this is true, then to press matt's claim is inheriently towny in nature. The innocent until proven guilty thing applies, but we cannot prove guilt unless we attack them correct?

I think really our discussion until others pipe in is going to die.

If matt IS a scum mason, then the other two should NOT have the same "your partners have no evil intent" or whatever it was Matt said he got. There's really no outs - the other two HAVE to chime in now before the end of the day and if they all dont say the same thing...well, I'll take a small break from TS, lynch Matt up real quick, get myself a nice tea, and go back to lynchin TS tomorrow.

I think that is the biggest reason why I'm not worried about Matt at this point. He's tied his hands to two other players and, really, if one of them is scum they all are and I'd hope since the maf has been real good at killin townies we've got at least one role that can clear it up.

yup... I look forward to it... although by your own words all but two of my posts have been... less then... useful? I suppose thats an ok word... so I really do look forward to arguing these links when they become needed.

Not "not useful" - just very joking or short (in the sense of content) - this was the only real "case" on one person you've made which is, of course, why it stands out.

[SpyreX]

Those damn ice cream trucks, WHY

And just in case someone else finds the need to attack me over this.. I am not trying to imply matt is a scum mason or anything. I am simply trying to make an example that can help prove why badgering even soft-claims is not a uniquely scum tell.

You know what - I agree with you 100%. I do badger soft-claims in most cases and I tend to have a very large and prominent tinfoil hat.

It was the method that TS did it that struck a bad chord - the whole "they're not dead..." business doesn't sit well with me.

Lord I've got a headache. Some days working in front of a computer is bad news. I'm probably out for the night.

[SpyreX]

TS and all of my connections aside, I dont know if I agree with much of your list Arm. The two other players that have been questionable, to me, are CKD and K7.

However, it's gonna take some HUGE revelation for me to not think TS is the right lynch for today.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, K7 should be on that list. I didn't like Antithesis' lack of voting at all D1 among other things, as you should remember on read.

I guess I worded it oddly.

I agree with you about K7/Antithesis, but it seem as though we agree for different reasons (you more about Antithesis / me more about K7)

Borge/Imat I can see "some" from, but I dont think they're near as off as CKD has been.

That and well, TS being town.

The rest are small shifts.

I also like the double votes without saying anything on this page. Scope - are you, in fact, a mason with Matt? Does it say you are confirmed?

The TS..well, yep, thar shure be a reason I done have my vote there.

[SpyreX]

Hey scumbag, why don't you vote for me a third time? You're not afraid of overkill, are you?

16 TS post ago (not too much has changed)

CKD is town, his wagon his going to go nowhere unless the scum shovels coal into the engine.

Thats a powerful 180 right about thar'

[SpyreX]

Speaking of BM... its odd that he, of all people, seems to be dead.

[SpyreX]

I haven't had a chance to epic fail yet. Give me my wish on TS and we can see if I can join the cool kids club with it.

[SpyreX]

Awesome, the twirling OMGUS defense comes out.

So, CKD, Suyre and I are all scum because we've voted for you? How about BM?

Arm, I can not for the life of me understand why you're still defending this as meta.

BM falling of the face of the earth is very questionable. CKD's behavior on the last few pages has been very poor. K7 is gone as always.

Yet, none of that even remotely changes the fact TS has been scummy and opportunistic most of the game. That doesn't change how this day has went.

I'm not, short of someone screaming from the rooftops they are scum, moving my vote.

[SpyreX]

In my big case, using the "cult cop" as not making sense to get the cult cop hung then immediately jumping 180 to put pressure on BM? Not to mention all the other ones?

Really??

[SpyreX]

Well then I do believe we are at an impasse. You realize that its this "meta" when she's been THAT scummy that makes me want to go after you if she's scum, of course?

[SpyreX]

As long as we're clear. I enjoy playing with you - but the "meta" just makes my teeth itch and I can't see defending someone that adamantly if you don't know their alignment.

[SpyreX]

I cant do that because I think that k7 and CKD have been scummy. BM / Borge also are kind of suspect. However, I dont think TS would be a "random" lynch - I find her play FAR more suspect and scummy.

[SpyreX]

I cant do that because I think that k7 and CKD have been scummy. BM / Borge also are kind of suspect. However, I dont think TS would be a "random" lynch - I find her play FAR more suspect and scummy.

[SpyreX]

You know what? I was all ready to post about how WTF this insta-wagon is on Bogre and how, now, I'm sure expecting him to come up town but hey.

I've tried and tried. That doesn't seem to be working.

So, instead, I'll be a COOL KID TOO.

Unvote, vote Bogre

Just for shits and giggles, someone want to pretend to sum up the case or we just powerlynching? Either way, I'm down.

[SpyreX]

What do you give the odds on Bogre being town? I'm taking 5:1

[SpyreX]

I'm LA for a week or so. Maybe when I come back we can get back to hanging TS instead of random powerlynch-beems.

[SpyreX]

Welp, Borge was scum and Armlx was town. I apparently have the worst read of what is going on ever.

Even though he was scum, I still hold a huge WTF to that lynch yesterday. I jumped on out of frustration with how the day was going but, really, how the hell did everyone come out of the waxwork to get him powerlynched?

GUESS WHERE MY VOTE IS GOING

Vote: TS

She's still scummy and, if looking at twilight, you dont think that was scummy as well I'd love to hear why. I may have been way off on Arm (and probably Korlash) but I'm not going to let this one go.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX needs a closer look (I didn't reread him as closely as I could have) - Andycyca was unusually contentless before he got replaced, and on first glance his play yesterday seems consistent with scum hunting rival scum.

I'd love more explanation from this. Here's a few questions to start the pot a brewin:

1.) Do we have proof of rival scum factions or is this just conjecture?
2.) How would scum hunting rival scum be different than town hunting scum? (since you imply a definite difference there).
3.) Why is it today, versus all of yesterday, that you bring this up?

I'd give you an FoS, but really, whats the point.

[SpyreX]

1) There definitely WAS a Cult and there definitely WAS a Serial Killer, so the Selective Scumhunting tell should apply (for D1 at the very least, with a longer-lasting effect if the Mafia thinks there are surviving Cultists.

Fair enough. With the Recruiter dead when he was and the SK dead (and the fact we haven't seen non-vig claimed kills) I haven't been thinking about a cult (I assumed with recruiter dead the cult couldn't recruit, so).

However, in my instance, I could see calling me out for tunnel vision but, really I've been about as Selective as you can get, just kill TScum and we will go from there.

The difference isn't so much how scum hunt scum so much as it is WHO they hunt - if a player in a multiple scum faction game is hunting for all scum except for one specific group, it's fairly likely that said player is a member of the group they ignore. (It's a useful enough tell for me that I have a shorthand to refer to it - Selective Scumhunting.)

Agreed, but again this is in reference to me so I'm not seeing how its applicable.

Because I only took the time to look at your predecessor overnight?

Because we actually caught a scum yesterday and I finally have something to work with?

Because I'm finally starting to get interested in this game again?

1.) Fair enough.

2.) Borge being scum gives something to work with on me?

3.) I understand 350%.

Go on, FoS me. You know you want to.

Actually, now, I dont. You are right that the possible existence of a Cult could cause some of the above. I'm still not sure how -I- fall into this but I know you'll explain.

[SpyreX]

I think I understand the disconnect here - you seem to be operating under the assumption that I am saying that you've been committing some of these tells, while I was under the assumption that you were asking me to explain my general reasoning. (As a matter of fact, there was a reason why you couldn't understand why some of my statements would be a reference to you - namely, that they weren't a reference to you.)

Now, that makes sense. Yes, I thought the whole mess was applying to me and i was confused - now that I understand I definitely agree with you on most of it. A few questions though:

Five of these players' identities are known (farside, MattS, Skitzer, KScope, and myself).

Are you actually cleared or is this the "I know my alignment" conjecture? (I've honestly lost track of some things this game so this is just a question).

I'm pretty sure at this point that TS, BM, and killa7 are all scum (either 1 Cult, 2 Mafia or 3 Mafia)

Agreed.

I'm now pretty sure that CKD is town, and I'm going to assume that Tombolo is town for now (he read town when I looked over him, and even if he is scum he's not an immediate threat).

Why CKD town? He's been scummy and I wouldn't put a bus past him (or different scum group).

Also, I honestly forgot about Tombolo - again, why town?

I only ask because I'd say Suyre has a more "town" vibe than either of the above. I do agree about Korlash though. Of course, I dont agree about myself but.

That's lynch-2. Toaster Strudel, claim or die.

Only one mistake. It should be claim AND die.

[SpyreX]

Scummy. Not as much to go on as TS.

TS first, FTW.

[SpyreX]

Why are Surye and Spyrex still alive? Never have I seen such blatantly manipulative scumbags.

I do like grouping us together. The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Way back when, when I replaced in, I made my case on you (that later you even said you agreed with). Then... nothing happened and a townie died.

Then the next day... I try again. ? causes the power bandwagon and a scum is dead.. but not you who still are scummy for all of that business.

So, I stand here and do it AGAIN. And I will KEEP doing it unless something really strange happens that shifts the way the game is going.

[SpyreX]

As am I, of course.

[SpyreX]

This claim by TS is, ultimately, not a claim yet.

It is designed to do EXACTLY what it is doing - forcing a lot of argumentative discussion about what that half claim could be.

TS, give a full and precise claim. Or, lets just hammer. Either way I dont think I'm going to buy doc AND jailer is far too convenient when, just as easily, it could be a scum RB.

Regardless, claim, for real.

[SpyreX]

Third, where's SpyreX? I want to see his reactions to all this, and he's gone and pulled a disappearing act.

Sorry, I've had a bad case of RL culminating in my 1-year wedding anniversary so I wont be around much tomorrow / Monday.

HOWEVER, this situation really bothers me.

Follow along with this logic, and let me know any huge problems with it.

1.) TS is "claiming" a protective role. The two roles it could be, from what I see, is either Doc or Jailer.

2.) To "protect" herself this game TS has opted to be scummy enough to not be a NK yet somehow not get lynched for the town.

Now, PROBLEMS I have with this.

With #1:

a.) TS is claiming Doc.
Now, we've consistently had a kill. Farside has claimed since day 1 and has repeatedly been roleblocked. Without the addition of new roles being outed, why would the scum change roleblocking the one known power role and killing randoms looking for ohh.. the doc?
So, this means that TS has been repeatedly protecting the one role that the scum has made clear that they are roleblocking.

b.) TS is claiming Jailer.
I'm new, I'll admit it, but ultimately Jailer seems as though it is far more useful hunting for people to jail and then have a kill NOT occur instead of protecting a role which, by protecting it, eliminates the majority of its usefulness. The only thing I'll give is that its keeping a confirmed towny alive, but eliminating most of their usefulness.

Now, with #2.

Playing scummy - as scummy as TS has been too - to live as a power role doesn't jive. Honestly, I'd rather have my power roles be lurking instead of playing scummy and somehow not be getting hung - which, again, makes me wonder about who's been pushing lynches and why TS hasn't been a target earlier (since I'm not special and saw something that was all that hard to see).

But, even more useful.. would be the power roles behaving as proactive town looking for scum and using their powers in addition to it. Ultimately, the goal is still to kill the scum and not to be alive - behaving in an anti-town manner to stay alive isn't being helpful.

So, what I'm expecting:

TS is a mafia goon. NOT the Roleblocker. This is serving as another layer of protection for the RB.

Regardless of the claim, there's plenty to be gained for the scum depending on how it goes - either the doc counterclaims or by claiming jailer (a role that COULD be in but definitely isn't for sure) gets a safe-out for a while.

So, my feelings (I'll try to check tomorrow).
1.) TS hasn't played, to me, like either of the major roles she could be claiming would have played.
2.) Being scummy to survive but not be NK'd isn't a good defense for town - but a great way for scum to explain pushing bad lynches.
3.) TS's obvious scummy play REALLY makes me believe that she's going to be a sacrifice and not the mafia roleblocker.
4.) If the claim is doc, really think about it - but I would definitely suggest NOT having the real doc counterclaim.
5.) A claim of jailer can't really be trusted - if I'm wrong about her being the goon and she actually is the RB, this is the obvclaim.
6.) Even if I am 100% wrong about TS and she is town, CKD is very suspect in his interaction with her today. I'll give more on that when it comes.
7.) I see ABSOLUTELY NO PRO-TOWN REASON for TS stretching out this claim - but I do see how the confusion and the fact it looks like people have almost claimed as being very useful to the scum.

In conclusion, lets get a' hangin.

[SpyreX]

How is this a protection for the RB? Also Jailer would not be a safe out...

Every day this goes on is a day we dont hang the RB, which at this point is holding Farside at bay.

The Jailier, the way its being "used", is not in any way discernible from that of a rolebocker - so it is a safe out.

I dont like this post either....if she is town, CKD is very suspect?....why not mention what happens if she flips scum?

The methods you've been arguing with her, if she is town, are suspect. Actually, I dont like them either way, so if that helps clear it up.

at this point I am fine with a mass claim.

...Was this even suggested? At this point, I am NOT fine with it.

[SpyreX]

Before I get started, I really like this:

Korlash: Sun Sep 28, 2008

8:56

pm Post subject: 3886
Toaster Strudel: Sun Sep 28, 2008

8:57

pm Post subject: 3887

Just a little tidbit that make me smile, but hey.

We're gonna hit these posts intertwined, just like you two have decided to be.

Have I pushed "bad lynched?" No, I have not.

Now, why this is scum play, color coded:

1.) Dark Red - When pushing for the Russo lynch, it is apparent that investigating a miller is ridiculous because they would not get an innocent regardless. However, this thought process changed very rapidly when, right after, she started pushing on BM because of the same result.
2.) Orange - Its obvious that, at this point, she is convinced CKD is scum. This is repeated MORE than once throughout the game yet, later, she says she doesn't see the CKD-loathing.
3.) Green - Claiming Russo is the delayed cult recruit (which then is pushed to BM).
4.) Violet - This one is another amazing one. She says that if Russo is town, BM is probably town. Then, when Russo comes up town, she starts using Russo's result (which again she had problems with) as a focus for her attack on BM (who she said was probably town)
5.) Indigo - Repeatedly calling the lynch a no-brainer and comparing it to the SK lynch (especially considering it was town) really struck me as an odd set of statements.
6.) Cyan - Threatening other people with the vig for not following the "no-brainer" then, later, saying directing the vig is a bad idea.
7.) Brown - Again, powerpushing for a lynch which, in reading, was weak.

So, you've got someone who's been active in pushing lynches even when they dont agree with previous statements as well as altering her viewpoints of key parts of it to push said lynches.

Yes, of course, in a game this big your thoughts on things will change - however, all of these reek of opportunism AND the fact that it has been push after push for townies doesn't help.

It's a foregone conclusion that Spyrexscum won't believe me but hey - I will really enjoy seeing you tarred and feathered when my alignment is revealed.

Why exactly am I scum?
If, through some miraculous turn of events you ARE actually the doctor who decided to play scummy to not get nightlynched and have been protecting the same person that has been consistantly being roleblocked with no new information being given to make you think that the scum would NOT, in fact, continue to roleblock the one power role known and I get lynched for it? Well, nuts to them then. You've played scummy and if I get hung for calling you on it..woo.

Hey Spyrex, you just confessed scum.

No one is going to counterclaim, but your attempt to paint me as scum by sounding 100% sure that the "real doc" should not counterclaim has not gone un-noticed. Again you show yourself a scumbag by pushing for a townie lynch.

Speaking of "bad lynches." You're the master of pushing bad lynches. I bow to you. When you publish your memoirs, I'll be first in line at the book signing.

By saying I would prefer, if there is a doc, to have them not claim soas to give the scum another good solid kill target?

Again, sorry I dont believe you when you've said yourself you agreed with my case on why you've been scummy. I do like all the "indignation" today when I've been pushing you from the first day I replaced into the game though.

First off... How do you even know she isn't the RB? And every day what goes on?

And uh, no... Jailier is not a safe out... ironically for the exact reason you just said...

I dont know for sure, but this play makes more sense for a scum goon to do to protect the RB.

Well, if claiming "Jailer" was what turned this wagon around then its a pretty safe claim - since there is no way to tell the difference between this and a scum RB without lynching. Thats what I meant by "safe claim".

Right becuase no townie would ever want a person in the caim or die territory to actually claim. damn you caught him didn't you...

I said the method, not the content. Yes, I wanted a damn claim and I said it over and over again.

I believe Tar suggested it... and let me just say... I'm not surprised your not fine with it... But that's getting ahead of myself isn't it...

On that note, I'd do it if it happened, but I don't really believe it's that necessary yet. At least not until this thing with TS is cleared up.

So I'm scum to you now too? Ohh the slings and arrows once again.

I dont think we're close enough to endgame to warrant a fullclaim - it just gives information to the scum and in a game where, up to this point, we've lost more vanillas than power roles I would prefer to keep it that way.

I will never understand, if you both are town, why the hell you two are so buddy-buddy. TS has said she's playing scummy on purpose and you've been attached to the hip. It doesn't make sense to me as two players who dont know each others alignments (and we already have masons).

But, guess that just makes me scum

[SpyreX]

Actually by asking a "real doc" to not counterclaim you were setting up people to disbelieve TS's claim before it even happened. And uh, no offense, anyone that automatically disbelieves a doc claim is a moron.

By telling a real doc not to counterclaim you give reason why her claim would not be countered. Thus, if she is the real doctor you, as scum, could still lynch her. If you are town, you have a serious grudge against TS. If you are scum, I would bank on you being her partner in crime. And just between us, I envy you for that... lucky bastard...

I'll give you this, definitely. I'll admit part of it is the fact that "I'm going to play scummy to not get NK'd" really gets me. I cant wrap my head around it - especially the way it was.

So, yes, I'm definitely assuming she's scum. With that in mind, nothing like claiming doc and getting the real doc to out themselves as one last finger-in-the-eye to cripple the town.

Actually it makes more sense for the actual scum RB to do. By claiming doc it eliminates the threat of a tracker. A tracker would have seen the RB target farside, by claiming Doc they protect themselves from that. When i usually fakeclaim as scum I usually make sure it accounts for any targets I did during the night, just to be safe.

As far as safe claims go, Jailer would have been her undoing. To claim Jailer would be to admit she locked up the vig, which no jailer should ever do. You destroy all use that vig could do.

I didn't look at it that way and it does make a lot of sense(to both the RB and the vig). So, maybe we dont have to slap fight all the live long day.

Massclaim actually, but I get what you meant. Well... Seeing as how the Sk and cult are dead... and seeig as how three mafia are already caught... A massclaim may just help out the last one or two scum remaining.

I guess with the size of the game I assumed that there -might- be enough scum left to cripple it enough that they might slip by. Of course, assuming our masons are masons (which I do) then its going to be moot anywho.

Just because we are friends doesn't mean anything. This is a game dude. what's the point in playing if I can't have fun? And just becuase TS may have been given a mafia role in this game doesn't mean I have to treat her any differently. Jeeze you take this game way too seriously...

I'll crack jokes, believe it or not. I try to have fun with it - but, really, I like to win. I like the mental battle between town and scum and I love the one-upmanship in figuring out the next moves. Thats the only reason why, friendship aside, I can't understand being -that- buddy buddy.

But, maybe you're right and I just need to take a step back. Even if I do, TS is still scum though.

No, you being scum makes you scum, scum. XD see, never gets old...

And uh, before you go crazy nuts relax. I don't think your scummy enough to be bothered to make a case, I just like usuing the nickname... But uh, tomorrow... we're gunna talk... <.<... scum...

I bet we will. It'll be a hoot. We can get all the old anger fired back up and e-yell until our ihearts run out.

[SpyreX]

I dont believe her either..however, I know there is a doc...and I know there is just one.

Wait, what?

There isn't any, I'm the doctor. PERIOD. Get it through your head and find scum. I'll be taken care of tonight.

And, when you're not?

I'll bite though - assuming there is no counterclaim, who do you want lynched today?

[SpyreX]

Just wanted to hear it.

You know what? You win.

Unvote

Silly me for building a case on you being scummy because that's just how you wanted to play this one as town. That must make me scum, afterall.

Hell, I'm not even sure how many people are left, but we can have us a good old fashioned massclaim.

Then, the 4 confirmed townies can just start power lynching against the scum killing them off (unless, in the most amazing gambit ever all the masons are the remaining scum - which I doubt but I would applaud).

I mean, we're probably at the point where we dont even need cases anymore! Just lynch away! But never the "doctor".

I'll even offer myself up first - You can hang me if you want but tomorrow when the doctor isn't NK'd for some "mysterious reason" and farside is still RB'd, maybe then?

[SpyreX]

With 15 left and 4, or 5 if you're gonna believe the doctor... no. Hence why its not a good time for it. However, those 5 leave 10 unconfirmed. So, you've got a smaller subset and with the additions of other power roles I think a plan could be made to ferret out the scum with a more than decent chance.

Ultimately the point is going to be moot because here soon the masons are going to start dying.. or you are dead tonight. So, might as well start while we can.

[SpyreX]

This is a confusing post. First paragraph is against mass claim, and second is for it so far as I can tell.

Statistically, I would have wanted to wait another day or two before it.

However, due to current events I feel that the "confirmeds" are going to start dying in droves so.

ONTO THE CRUX OF THINGS

Vote K7

[SpyreX]

Korlash is town. Korlash is voting for K7. WHY ARENT YOU voting for K7?

WE WANT YOU.

[SpyreX]

you are smart...you can figure it out.

Apparently I'm not. What role or power would let you know that there is one and only one doctor in the game?

Unless you're counterclaiming, which, if so, just do it and we can get back to what we're doing.

Otherwise, to spice things up - I'm also just a vanilla! LETS START MASSCLAIMING!

[SpyreX]

Hey Gorrad - was Arm killed or were there no night kills? I'm confused.

Either way - What a surprise, the "doctor" is still alive.

[SpyreX]

@Gor - I saw that, but I saw Arm also was dead and he wasn't on the list, just clarifying.

You find that surprising?

Of course not. Its just me again saying playing scummy and then going omg doc and us just letting it slide, well.

12 alive, probably no fewer than four surviving Mafiosos. We're one day away from LyLo.

We massclaim today. Period. I'm willing to start if needed.

I'm vanilla. Woo

Lets get the list up.

• Tarhalindur - ?
  Korlash - ?
  skitzer - Mason
  Surye - ?
  Toaster Strudel - "doc"
  SpyreX - Vanilla
  Something Awesome - ?
  curiouskarmadog - Some role that knows there is one doc.
  Matt_S - Mason
  KaleiÃ

[SpyreX]

Tarhalindur - Vanilla
Kor - Tracker/Watcher?
Suyre - DKC (Survivor Now)
SpyreX - Vanilla
Something Awesome - ?
CKD - Nurse
Tombolo -?

Ok before this goes any further... stop it...

First and foremost I would peg Tar as scum for the mere fact he was the one who said K7 was more likely the RBer then TS, and that we should lynch him instead. So if TS does flip RBer, I would suggest vigging him.

Secondly, TS is not the doc. I don't know how is... but I have proof TS did not target Farside for quite a few nights in a row. And that's the end of story right there... Didn't claim yesterday because... well... Kinda hate being the reason TS is lynched... *cries* But I said more then once I knew she was lying.

Can't actually bring myself to vote her... so I'm gunna need you guys to do t for me D=

Wow LOOK AT THAT.
Kor, just to be sure, you're saying Tracker, right?
Also, for me:

Vote: TS

And would this work for your bottom problem Kor?:

Vote: TS

(I'm just kidding...or am I).

That leaves us with Tom and Something Awesome (who hasn't posted in about 1 million years if my timer is on).

Not sure what to make of Surye at this point - I have no reason to not believe him, but I'm really not sure what the right move is in regards to that.

The right move (after getting the rest of the claims) is to lynch TS of course.

[SpyreX]

Good answer Korlash. I was still a little hesistant because you hadn't outright claimed for just that reason.

Nope, TS isn't the roleblocker, but she is lying scum.

[SpyreX]

After what Korlash said, it was obvious he was either the Tracker or the Watcher. HOWEVER, if he had said Watcher he would have been hung and a liar.

Tracker just means he's too legit to quit.

Although, Kor - if you could I'd like all your Tracks. See if we can't ferret something out.

[SpyreX]

? why not?

[SpyreX]

Come on now, it shouldn't be THAT complicated right. You've got your messages, just give us a breakdown.

[SpyreX]

Well, FINE. You make it not easy to trust, you know.

How about - is there any reports you have that are useful?

[SpyreX]

Did TS target OTHER people that died the nights she targeted them?

[SpyreX]

Ohhh.. so you've never seen TS go anywhere?

[SpyreX]

Excellent. I swear you're like a damn Rubic's Cube.

DEATH TO TYRANTS

[SpyreX]

The only way I could see Korlash lying would be if it was Lylo. I really doubt it is.

[SpyreX]

I am a tad short on time, so I'll have to make this short. Expect more either later tonight or tomorrow.

We have a claimed neutral survivor.

At this stage in the game, a neutral survivor is effectively a Mafioso.

1) If Surye is telling the truth (granted, a big if), then we are almost certainly at LyLo (7 town, 5 Mafia). Everyone needs to unvote. NOW.

2) Surye claimed scum. He's either Neutral Survivor, Mafia, or Cult. None of those are pro-town (in fact, Surye as surviving Cult is the best-case scenario). Why are we not lynching him?

Ultimately (OMG FALSE Dilemna) there are three real choices for today.

1.) Surye - If we are not at true lylo this could be a lynch. However, as it sits I'm not for it - for reasons that will become apparent.

2.) TS - Either TS or Korlash have to be lying. I can see no scenario where they are both town.

3.) Korlash - Again, one of the two is lying. I'll admit that Korlash makes it hard - getting information is like squeezing a stone. However, DUH, as it sits I believe him.

So, why not Surye? Well, if this is true lylo his lynch is game over. If this is the quasi-lylo - we're boned as is if Surye decides to go mafia route.

Now, regardless, I'm inclined to believe Korlash - which means TS is scum and all other factors aside, her lynch buys us a day.

[SpyreX]

#$@*&*#&$#L#$&*#(&$#Y#$&(*#&#N#&$*(#&C&(*#$&#(*H*#&*(&$#(@#$T*&(*&S&*(&@#(*$#@P&(*#$&@#L#@&*$(@#&(*#E#&*@(&$#@*(A*(@#&$*(#@&(*S*(#&$*(#&E

There's a code in there. Figure it out. Follow it. Live the life.

[SpyreX]

I never could see the damn sailboat.

[SpyreX]

Well, TS isn't even bothering to come in and say anything.

We have many people not voting TS.

[SpyreX]

...? Doctors dont show up on tracker reports now?

[SpyreX]

Kor... have you seen her ever go anywhere

[SpyreX]

Sorry Kor - I honestly forgot. It was late. I promise I wasn't trying to get you to slip up.

I will go on record for saying (WIFOM) the scum haven't made ANY sense to me this game at all...

Here are some things that dont make sense:

1.) We have masons that have not been targeted and we are getting to lylo.
2.) We have a "doctor" and a claimed backup doc and no doctor CC... yet, the doctor did not visit (or say Korlash was lying).
3.) We have a vig that has been neutralized, but not eliminated.
4.) We have a tracker that watched the doctor go nowhere but didn't speak up yesterday to stop the bad lynch.

I believe Korlash, so TS by nature has to be scum. I still do not understand how the masons haven't been hit. Without a counterclaim, I do not understand how at ALL CKD can be backup doc if there isn't a doc.

In short, I am officially confused about most of this game. TS is still the right lynch though.

[SpyreX]

The only way it'd make sense for you to fakeclaim would be if TS IS doc and this is lylo.

I doubt it though. I am a firm believer in team Korlash at this point.

[SpyreX]

You two backing me up... Never thought I would see that...

Strange times make for strange bedfellows.

[SpyreX]

P.S. I'm jokin. Once we got past our fight and right to the makin out, its been good times Kor

[SpyreX]

I've got an ongoing that has this one beat.

[SpyreX]

Shift and turn, every direction. SQUEEZE THE JUICE.

[SpyreX]

I dont even remember the last day being THAT LONG where the mod would have given the scum the finger.

And if one scum RB'd Far...why wouldn't they have sent in a kill?

[SpyreX]

I don't know, ask your buddies. Hey how come you forgot to nightkill me? I'm curious.

Well because we were talking and we decided.... WAIT I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.

I love avoiding the whole Korlash hasn't seen you go anyhwere in a while and yet you not thinking he's lying!

[SpyreX]

I am soo vindicated. It feels so good.

Sorry Kor for ever doubting you. <3

I AM NOW YOUR SHADOW

Vote: Tar

[SpyreX]

I was thnking Kor might be the doc. Is this a truth?

Furthermore, did we get claims from everyone?

[SpyreX]

Well it adds up.

Honestly, now that its broken open if I end up being one of the lambs then so be it.

[SpyreX]

Tar's math checks out assuming that the masons aren't ballsy scum and/or kor isn't a busser (both of which I find highly unlikely).

So, I'll give Tar the benefit of the doubt and hang another scumbo.

Unvote
Vote: CKD

[SpyreX]

...hello? Is anyone out there?

[SpyreX]

Heyyy, I'm not worthless! I'm just a statistical martyr is all. I'd love to live, but more importantly, I'd love to WIN

[SpyreX]

In that case Kor, and considering CKD's play, wouldn't CKD be a better call for today (the parroting) and then deal with Tar tomorrow?

[SpyreX]

...It was TAR that shifted that?

Unvote
Vote: Tar

[SpyreX]

Hay masons, why not chime in and pick a target. There's only 5 of us.

Grimmy is a wild card being a replacement.
If I am scum I am the most awesome busser ever.
CKD has been "awesome" and claimed a role that, really, I dont buy.
Tar's logical explanation makes enough sense that I didn't want to hang him for it. However, he is one of the remainders.
Surye has definitely claimed a scary role in the days to come.

My belly gut says CKD.
My apathy says Tar
My hatred of not town roles says Surye

[SpyreX]

I can't believe its not butter.
CKD has PLAYED scummier consistently.
Tar's interaction with you + helping push the lynch away from TS is bad.

I'd kill either.

CKD voting for Suyre really strikes me as off as well.

[SpyreX]

I guess I'm looking at it from teh standpoint if we're approaching lylo - why not kill the survivor to give a better shot for a mislynch at lylo? The scum can't trust him any more than we can so its easy to get behind and, of course, the fact is he's not a scum so it only quasi-hurts.

[SpyreX]

YOU WOULD THINK THAT

Wait

Thats right

Ohhh

My bad

Lets get a lynching

[SpyreX]

Suyre isn't the lynch for today.

The CKD adamancy about it, well.

[SpyreX]

In all things I agree with Korlash.

Unvote, Vote: CKD

[SpyreX]

Probably not enough to make it matter. The big thing is the mason block has spoken.

[SpyreX]

Well, as we run towards that 200 mark maybe it should.

Honestly, I haven't like CKD's play much for a long long time.

[SpyreX]

But sometimes they'll power lynch for no reason!

Its awesome.

If you die I will channel you for Tar tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

Whats the count looking like? If CKD is higher, lets just move it ahead.

[SpyreX]

and it was a MASON OHH NOES QUICK TO THE CHOPPAS

Unvote, Vote Tar

[SpyreX]

Its...over?

We won?

OHH YES.

Good game all.