Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)
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Thank you.
I'll post as I go along (with the understanding that things may change as I read more).
Here's a question for ya:
Day one I've been looking for connections and I've found a pretty DUH one of three people so far. Khelvaster - BM - Imat. Khelvaster was godfather, BM was Drug Dealer (scum, I'm assuming - not that far yet) - why the hell is Imat(Bogre?) still around?
Still reading.-
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Page 72, still churning along.
I cant believe that everyone was so quick to lynch Russo for targeting a miller (getting a guilty regardless) yet the next day this push on BM is now stemming from him being cult meaning Russo was correct... there's something fishy going on with this mess.-
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Up to 82... I can almost see light at the end of the tunnel.
This little comment wont come as a surprise to Arm - Metas, again, are retarded. Looks like this game they've been used to hurt the town quite a bit.-
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I'm getting there, ohh lord I'm getting there. Page 101. The numbers are dwindling and I'm actually starting to get some solid GOOD vibes from people as well as the scummy ones.
I -may- actually give a large post today. If not, tomorrow.-
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113 - BM, were you taking your own drugs this game? Seriously - either you were a miller/hider/SOMETHING ELSE or you lied about being a hider for no reason and you were town?
BAH.-
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I've caught up. Ohh lordy, I've caught up!
I am now officially mentally drained though - I've got some suspects and some huge questions (surprise!) that will go up in the next day or so.
So, some real questions for everyone pertinent to today... why is there so much speed on this Celeb lynch and why haven't the players who just kind of jumped on not have real scrutiny? Hell, look at page 133. There's what, 5? 6? votes on Celeb coming in rapid succession there?-
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I function a little better now after that massive reread yesterday. In a little bit I'm going to give some of the people that I have gotten some serious scummy vibes from.
However, there's something that worries me some, and really gets me today with those sneaky votes.
The TOWN has managed to kill ONE scum - and that was K7 which wasn't all that hard. We really need to ALL start being a bit more vocal and find something to really push - some of these cases have been pretty ridiculous.
Now, logically, there is a good chance that Celeb IS scum (from his play / from the RB last night). However, there was some rapid and opportunistic voting around it - we damn well need to watch that because, at the current rate, it could very well be lylo really soon.
I'll be back in a bit with my suspects.-
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As for my top suspect (I swear to God if the word "meta" is used to defend some of these actions I'll just explode)
Number One WITH A BULLET:Vote: Toaster Strudel.
Her play has been, erratic, to say the least. She has had a few major changes in opinion that have felt like they were there simply to push lynches forward.
Now, why this is scum play, color coded:The Scumfinder wrote:Why on Earth would a player investigate a claimed miller? In case he gets an innocent result?
There is zero game logic in investigating a Miller.
I buy neither the claim, nor the night choice.armlx: I totally agree with you. When CKD backed off from obvscum Rosso Carne, my scumdar set off sparks and caught fire. It's either of two things: he's defending a buddy, or he's scum knowing that Rosso is town.If Rosso is town, CKD is scum. If Rosso is scum, CKD is scum., so much scum, so few lynches.I want to lynch Rosso, I want to lynch CKDI totally would, except that Rosso's claim is totally preposterous, his night choices are a joke,. Claiming cult cop, BS night choices, it makes sense.and now to boot I really like that point that he might be the delayed cult recruitLet me add this twist:
If RC is town,,BM is almost definitely townand CKD is most definitely scum.
If RC is scum, BM is still potentially scum, and CKD is still potentially scum.And the odds of you being(TSPN)rosso's investigation and happening to be the delayed recruit are pretty damn tiny.
Is that yet another reason why Rosso's claim is rubbish?Any of the players not voting for, shooting fish in a barrel Rosso wagonthat no-brainer.is a good vig choiceWhat??? This is like yesterday's SK lynch. It's a. Rosso is clearly making things up, and the things he's making up are not remotely believable. How could he NOT vote for Rosso? How could YOU not???total no-brainerWhy is(Peers)? The vig can be trusted to know what he's doing. They've obviously been reading the thread so far.everyone so obsessed with directing the vig
QFTIndeed, and I am EXTREMELY leery of the Miller/Hider claim, that's the kind of claim that's just tooooo scummalicious.
The Miller/Hider claim explains two of the problems that scum might encounter in a game. The first problem is that they may be investigated and found guilty. Conveniently, BM declared himself a miller. The second problem is that the scum must explain his continued survival night after night. This is especially important if we have living vig, and the miller doesn't get nigthkilled and continues to live. So "hider" and "miller" makes a perfect combo for a scum claim.
Also, I see BM is very active and scheming. That's his scum persona, not his town persona.
The Miller/Hider claim is the real clincher. I don't believe it.I believe that BM is just plain scum.For clarity's sake.
Normally, one would expect a cult cop to get a "guilty" on cults, and "not guilty" on non-cults. However, Rosso seems to have gotten a "guilty" on a miller-but I too would expect that a miller would be innocent to a cult cop.
However, BM was guilty to Rosso. This must mean that BM was culted. A culted miller/hider? That cannot be suffered to live.He cracks easily.There must always be pressure on CKD.We're worried about a cultist, BM was guilty to the cult cop, we have a probable poisoner-cult,and we're not lynching BM.Oh no, we want MORE BM!!! Not less!
This whole farside vigging BM to prove that a miller who has been found guilty by the cult cop is indeed a hider, is absolutely preposterous.
Since he can only hide on alternate days, if BM is proven to be a hider-miller, he'll be killed by the mafia for (1) being proven innocent "sort of" or (2) being cult.
Is BM worth all this trouble since he's going to die anyway???
Is any Miller worth all this trouble?
Is any Miller found guilty by a CULT cop worth it?
How this game got to revolve around BM this, and BM that, like a freakin' Miller is the most valuable role ever is making me cry.We want to keep a culted miller around???He's guilty to a cult cop, which means he's culted.Exactly. I'm totally not feeling the CKD-loathing in this game.Can someone explain why we're not lynching WhoMe?Guys, it's only day 4, we've got 130 pages, let's stop spamming and lynch WhoMe already.
1.)- When pushing for the Russo lynch, it is apparent that investigating a miller is ridiculous because they would not get an innocent regardless. However, this thought process changed very rapidly when, right after, she started pushing on BM because of the same result.Dark Red
2.)- Its obvious that, at this point, she is convinced CKD is scum. This is repeated MORE than once throughout the game yet, later, she says she doesn't see the CKD-loathing.Orange
3.)- Claiming Russo is the delayed cult recruit (which then is pushed to BM).Green
4.)- This one is another amazing one. She says that if Russo is town, BM is probably town. Then, when Russo comes up town, she starts using Russo's result (which again she had problems with) as a focus for her attack on BM (who she said was probably town)Violet
5.)- Repeatedly calling the lynch a no-brainer and comparing it to the SK lynch (especially considering it was town) really struck me as an odd set of statements.Indigo
6.)- Threatening other people with the vig for not following the "no-brainer" then, later, saying directing the vig is a bad idea.Cyan
7.)- Again, powerpushing for a lynch which, in reading, was weak.Brown
So, you've got someone who's been active in pushing lynches even when they dont agree with previous statements as well as altering her viewpoints of key parts of it to push said lynches.
Yes, of course, in a game this big your thoughts on things will change - however, all of these reek of opportunism AND the fact that it has been push after push for townies doesn't help.
That took a lot of time. I'll give you some other suspects later, but lord, this was the queen mother (and, when I'm right, I'll hand you another tomorrow).-
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I feel like I'm having the same discusison in multiple games.
If you want me to read it, give me a link. I'll read em, and if you're trying to get me to look at what I am I'll tell you now what I'll say.
They were scummy that game and they're scummy this game. I would have hung them in that game and I, based on this game, want them hung here.
Being scummy as a meta is not an excuse.-
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Ok, so I read the games.
1 - Town, Jaw Droppingly So.
2 - Town
3 - 50/50 (leaning town a little)
4 - Probably Scum (wrong)
So, I was unable to make a read one game (but was right) and was wrong one game.
Meta's are retarded, but even based on that I DO NOT see her play this game matching any of those games where she was town. So, by your own argument she would be scum (not that I would use it, but)
MY feelings about this game stand and this doesn't really alter that too much.-
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That first game it was obvious from her play. The second one, too. The third game was a lot more agressive and harder to read and the last one had that damn scumputer which, of course, as it went on made me think it was scum.-
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Hmm, perhaps, just perhaps... we could go ahead and lynch TS like I suggested yesterday? Or we can filibuster and kill another townie, either way.
Vote: TS
When she flips up scum, I've got another one, good chance on another two.-
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Are we in some kinda scum-olympics all of a sudden?
What? Why would you announce jumping wagons at this point like that?tar wrote: I'll switch back to CKD if the TS wagon dies down.
Ok, someone defending someone else based on "meta" is retarded. TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITH META AGAINST A BASELESS VOTE IS FLABBERGASTING.tar wrote: CKD, I've seen your play enough that you *know* about some of my oddities/bad habits as town.
Care to point out the parts of my play that don't fit my town meta?
Its like a double backflip secret OMGUS when they're voting for someone else. Dance the dance.ckd wrote: I knew Tar would find a reason to once again jump on the major wagon..
unvote, vote tar.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at with this - it seems like just red-noise (noise filled with hate).ckd wrote:interesting Matt, you press a case yesterday (all day) against Cele...you scream and beg for people to listen to you. You attack me for my skitzer vote, you soft claim something (I know I know, not cop)..and then I listen to you because I think you are on to something...and we lynch a townie.
I fucking notice you didnt attack my vote yesterday when I place it....also, I note you dont mention your particular record in voting out townies...care to compare?..or should I?
As has everything thats happened this game since day 1. You come out of the woodwork for this?k7 wrote:everyone matt s has declared scum has flipped town.
I, personally, would like Matt to just lay out his whole deal and why Skitz and Kalidescope are town. We're throwing out conjectures now and that's not going to help move this forward.
TS is still scum - but until we unweave these threads we're not going to make any progress. Considering how badly this game, overall, has been going we need to turn it around and start powerlynching scum or we will lose.-
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Yea? I could see a lot of reasons why this might be (not even including letting you make this statement now). This is some terrible WIFOM.Matt_S had already hinted/softclaimed.
Two nights later he's still not dead.
Thats ok, you're still scum so we're cool.-
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A personal jab and a disregard. Nicely played.
I'll dance though -
What is the actual case on Matt from you? Considering he's said they're all masons, if he was lying they would come out and say so... or, three scum have just outed themselves.
Now for my bit of WIFOM - if I was scum, WHY would I clear 3 players at this juncture. Leave em there, pick off some power roles and, when the timing is right, kill them one by one (unless you think they're masons with power roles on top of it).
Especially with the way this game has went - its not like the maf are on the verge of losing FFS.
Also, since I am dancing, anything at all to say about what I had to say about you way back when?-
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If I'm wrong I'd be very surprised, but none of these last posts feels sincere in the least.
I'm not buying the emovote or WIFOM defense. Especially since this didn't really flare up until now.-
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What I meant is none of the last posts by TS feel sincere at all.All I see is she is taking things personal once again, but whatever. We have a different view and I will leave it at that.
In fact I'm going to take it a couple steps further. TS is now emovoting - this serves two great purposes for the scum depending on how it goes:
1.) It gets people to remove their votes in response (see farside)
2.) If people don't remove their votes, it gets the day ended fast before the town can pull more information together.
Now, more than once I've said if TS is scum I'll hand you another one, if not two - the connections are pretty obvious and I'll go hunt them down if need be. But, the other two that I would be VERY sure of if TS IS scum are Korlash and Armlx.
Korlash, after this debacle, jumped in with a very weak argument. I dont think for a second he thought it was going to build any steam - what it does do, however, is deflect from TS.
We're late in the game and we haven't hit anything for a while. The scum can afford to be a little bit more ballsy and that is exactly what this is.
As for the Matt_S issue - Matt, I'll ask directly: Are you a mason with Skitzer and KScope? If yes, this is well and good and all three need to just claim. If no, explain yourself today so this is cleared up.
TS is the lynch for today. If I'm right, and I think I am, I'm going to go ahead and call the next tomorrow - believe you me I'll get the case together (its been pretty obvious since the reread). Lets not let the game die down this time and push ahead.-
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I'll be God, thats fine with me. I'm honestly not sure why I got so much vitriol from my statements, but hey, I'll roll with it.
The crux of this seems to be two parts:I don't give a damn who it reflects from. I saw a person slip and admit something that isn't right for town to know. You talk about not hitting anything for a while? it's probably because people like you play the hits off as foul balls.
1.) Suyre said TS was wrong, not that hethoughtshe was wrong or anything else which implies that he has knowledge that town wouldn't have.
2.) Matt_S has softclaimed a role that has not been reciprocated by either of the other two "masons" - this I agree with and that is why I asked Matt and one of them to directly say it.
So, no, I'm not seeing this as a "hit".
You're right, I dont know you. I dont need to know you to see that for the majority of this game you've cracked jokes and, really, not said too much until today when you've come out guns-a-blazin' on this case during the TS debacle which, oddly enough, is a defense and a deflection from TS.And how dare you even think to know what I thought. this is the first damn time I've ever had to type out your name and you think you know me? I'm sorry, i didn't know you were God. Should I bow? Seriously, ever post I make I excpect to "make steam." granted sometimes that steam is only laughter and children singing in joy, but its still steam. I don't post in this increasingly less intellegent forum every day for my own health you know.
I'm not defending Surye, I'm not voting or doing anything else. Keep on keepin' on with what you're doing. TS is scum, and yes, when she comes up scum you're next. (OHH NOES I SAID IS SCUM WHICH IMPLIES I HAVE KNOWLEDGE FROM THIRD PARTY SOURCES).Oh and before I get lost in my own rant, this last post of yours is deflecting from Surye, who I must say has some explaining to do. So pardon me if your point where your calling me a black kettle doesn't upset me a little.. and get me... (sick double pun here ladies and gentlemen) steamed... *pause for laughter* ha ha ha.. ahhh... dude... that was so worth the fake rant... ha ha ha...
Yep. I'm not sure what you plan to shove up my ass about that. I thought it was pretty clear.Let me guess... it's me isn't it? ohhhh!!! *giddy* can't wait to shove that one up your ass! but tomorrow shall wait!
Yes, there was a catfight that was started by TS. I dont know if I'd say it was intense or not, but it was there.On the TS wagon, self vote is bad. shame... SHAME! But.. yes there is always a but... It did follow a pretty intense cat fight that had gotten more then a little personal. So the "emovote" as you put it was more likely a sign of pridely refusing to play anymore. Which is not a factor of alignment. Personal grudges that cause you to wimp out on games will effect you the same way as town and scum, so to say this makes her scum is just more BS. So I'm afraid I will have to disagree that she is today's lynch for sure and all that.
If I hadn't thought TS was scum from when I first came into this game, yes, it would have played a role in thinking this was just "pride" or whatever else it was. However, she HAS been scummy well before this and, honestly, how the hell does this not become an issue in a game running this long until this point? It does not feel geniune.
If you honestly think I'm saying the emovote is why she is scum, well, I can't help you. Its just icing on the already large cake.
How am I overlooking current events to make my insert sarcastic quotes here case on TS?So username who I will forever be sarcastically calling God forever and ever and ever... and ever and ever and ever... (cut that part out to make shorter) ... and ever and ever, why are you so insistant to overlook current events to make your "case" on TS? Also explain to me where my first vote on a wagon case was weak. I've seen better bandwagons started for a quarter of what I provided. Also, explain how you can call me scum for pointing out a scummy action, then say we haven't hit anything for a while. (I know I already said that, but I think it's so good you need to answer it twice.)
Here's how it went down from my reading:
1.) Day starts out and I vote again for TS (like I've done since I came in and will continue to do barring someone claiming scum).
2.) Wagon starts forming.
3.) TS mostly jokes around, then brings up blindly believing the masons as a bad idea (which is true).
4.) TS makes the statement that Matt had claimed and still isn't dead as, apparently, not him being scum but.. ?
5.) Farside votes TS.
6.) Catfight starts.
7.) TS brings up scum masons as a possible solution (possible, but not probable).
8.) Emovote.
9.) You come in with your single longest post in this entire game attacking Suyre with what STILL is a very weak attack.
Now, I'd seen connections between TS-Arm and TS-you long before this. Until this whole deal, I wasn't sure what to make of the you-TS (since really you just joke a lot and seem to just have fun playing) connection I saw - however, the fact that you've altered your play this game to come out at the time you did regarding what you did increases the connection I see between the two of you.
So, yes, TS is scum and when she flips such you are also scum to me. Of course I'm not God - I could be wrong, but the evidence this game points me to this conclusion.
I really dont care if Surye agrees with me or not about Matt_S - I am fully in favor for that whole mass fullclaiming so there can be no question about the ties between them and, depending on how the game goes, one can be probed for the alignment of the others.-
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No, my case was back when I first joined in (my post 14). The one with all the pretty colors.It's a defense sure, but it's not deflecting anything. if your case against her is so weak that I'm able to derail it with one point then obviously it was crap to begin with. Your putting too much into this "deflection thing" and not enough into the more obviousl simple defense thing. it's only natural that someone's case gets refuted, and that is what I am doing here.
Why are you even defending her, though? Let her defend herself unless you are sure she is town - that and again the timing of when you jumped in is suspect.
I'm making fun of the fact it is the statement of "She is wrong" versus "I think she is wrong" that you've taken umbrage with - I think it is a very weak semantic argument. So, ya, I must sure have been being stupid there and not snide.I said knowing someone is town means you have inside knowledge... nice way to show your stupidity.
And um... yeah... attacking me by calling my case weak and only a deflection from TS is defending Surye. Perhaps not intentionally no... but it still is. And of course by your logic if he does flip scum, you should be next yes?
That is why the case is weak. And, yes, I fully expect one or more people to jump on me if Suyre is scum because of this interplay.
Go read my case, MY case on TS. If you think its because of the deflecting here, no. That just further confirmed prior suspicions is all.Probably the fact that I'm town and your going to use another person's proposed alignment to call my lynched days in avanced. Added onto that the relationship I have with the deceased makes most, not all, but most interations between us moot. And of course that fact that your case so far against me is that I appear to be deflecting from TS, which... "definitly makes me scum" doesn't it. /sarcasm
No, I'm not lynching because of that. I said that interplay does not feel geniune. Thats all. Lord, if I was pushing a lynch solely on that then yea, you might have something.Oh I'm sorry God... i forgot you know everything! Your feelings are symbols of truth! You cannot possible be mistaken as it is a human characteristic! All hail the all-knowing this guy! /hails
Your going to lynch someone over feelings? And you call my case weak.
I didn't include most of the votes. Farsides was included specifically because, right after, was the start of the "catfight".I'll give you that one. It can't be your only reason.
I notice in your list you didn't include Surye's vote, but included Farsides... something going on there? Or was it just not important?
No, its not that you've "finally" decided to participate. It is the nature of the change and the timing of the change that makes me question it.And whats your point about my longest post? Are you trying to say that makes any difference in the matter? You think it's bad that I am finally participating? What?
Mostly the way you talk and yes, I could see that to some degree being due to the fact you've been here so long. I am not going to get into detail until this is resolved one way or the other because, frankly, I dont want to derail this lynch or bog the game down. If it really needs to happen, I'll go through and hunt down all the specifics that I saw.You would probably see the same connections between us in other games. Providing we are talking about the same connections here. Which ones are you refering too?
There is a mirror between what we've done in this, and I expect there to be ramifications one way or the other as it plays out.it's ironic how we each accuse the other of a connection and we each resort to trying to cut that tie. We are more alike then you think oh great and powerful one.
But, honestly, the God thing isn't really funny to me. I think I've said all I need to about this for now and if something comes up sure I'll respond but being a condescending dick about this all isn't really "fun" for me. So, there ya have it.
@Arm
I dont want to have this all derail - tomorrow (gameday-wise) one way or another I'll explain what I've seen.-
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To a degree, yes. Thats a given in any game. Partially its the fact that I know you're both solid players and I got nothing when I put up my first case on her. Also, its been the bi-directional interplay between each of you and her this whole game (yea, I replaced in and read the whole damn thing).Arm wrote:I'm presuming it has to do with the fact that we both are defending her.
If this point keeps getting pushed, I'll do it today. I really didn't even want to bring it up until TS was lynched ever (notice that all along I've said I had connections to her). The reason is, of course, I need her alignment to be sure about what I've seen - but, I'll sit and do a reread and another probably color coded meeegaaaapost if thats what it takes.
Honestly, nothing I said when I first replaced in about her play ALL game has changed - today has just been more of the same.
I know we haven't played together, but give me a little more credit than this. In 71 posts in this game only one other time did you do anything that amounted to a case (post 6) - and that was more a general input of the game. This is the first time you've really sat down and put together a whole case on a singular person with a vote attached - and, frankly, the timing and the nature of the attack was suspect.I haven't changed my playstyle. Throughout that entire Surye discussion I kept putting in jokes like I always did. The only thing different is the length of my post, which is in no way a playstyle change.That is the change in playstyle I was talking about.
I will address your issues, though.
Agreed. The nature of what we were doing led to this and I am more than willing to drop it for the time being.1: You come at me saying I am trying to Deflect from TS. This is not the case, I was simply following a lead where I saw a person vote for reasons I think were crap. There is no defense involved here, that came out of the situational specifics. Much like you attacking me, situationally defended Surye. You did not intend for it, nor do did you intend for it to derail whatever attack was going on at him? You have severely undermined my entire point, and tried to force it to appear like I was defending someone and not attacking someone.
Ok, now we'll argue about the truth of these statements, but here's a quick version of my thought process:You say we are late in the game and have not hit anything in a while. You then attack me for trying to follow a lead. It seems a contradiction to me, hence why I may have gotten a little upset. All your saying here is that we (the town) have not gotten any real leads in a while, oh look! that guy found one! he must be scum for doing it!
1.) TS is scum
2.) I've seen connections between you and TS.
3.) An actual wagon starts to form
4.) You come in attacking Suyre for his vote with, to me, what is weak (I'll get into why I feel that case was weak after).
---a.) This attack, timing wise, serves as a solid derail.
---b.) This attack, from what I've seen of you this game, does not follow your normal patter of play.
5.) This further cements my connections and makes me make the statement: "if TS is scum, Korlash is scum." (I'll leave arm for a different time."
Now, why I thought that case was weak:
A given, except for the fact Matt had implicitly (and finally explicitly) claimed mason. In order for that to work, unless you believe a scum mason (which is an out Matt denied himself), the others would either have to lie to us or, in fact, be scum. This is the point Surye made. I do agree we need further confirmation, but for now if all three say they are masons and confirmed town to each other that is enough at this point.See they don't all have to be scum. The beauty of being scum is if only one survives, they can still win. So, hypothetically, if matt is scum and calls two town town. He effectivly confirms himself in our eyes should one or both of them die, while systematically dragging one or both with him should he die. So the trio does not all have to be scum. Saying they are all confirmed town simply because they cannot all be scum seems stupid until we have some other form of confirmation.
This'll be relevant to the next part:Surye wrote:TS on the other hand is being pretty irrational, and even worse, is playing that dance where you cast large amounts of doubt, see if anyone bites, and if no one does, saying "I never said they were scum!".You were pretty clearly setting up Matt_s as scum, and as I stated, I believe this is most definitely false. And it's not because you are wrong that I am about to vote you, but because when no one agreed, you act as if that was not your intent at all.
I brought this up before this post, and it had been brought up before - until the town is sure they are masons, the mafia will not kill them. They are a potential mislynch AND by killing other players they may hit a true power role. Now that we've reached the point that they will come out confirmed, the others will die soon. And, although not true WIFOM, it is hard to swallow "The masons have not been killed, therefore they are scum."Now I admit the "I'm not saying he is scum" isn't the most pro-town thing TS has ever muttered, but I can't see how it is an overly scummy thing either. Questioning why a claimed power role (or semi-claimed, or partly claimed, or whatever the hell he is) is still alive and a vanilla town was killed instead is a very viable argument. Have we been treating matt as anything less of a claimed town? In fact, if him skitzer and Kscope are all town, then why are the mafia not systematically killing them off? They choose to let three town live that can potentially confirm each other live while they kill off vanilla townies thus making the list of names to hide in that much smaller? And theres no WIFOM involved. You have a claimed vig sitting over there that is the best choice for doc protection, the scum have no fear of their kills being stopped if they choose between the three "masons" now do they?
This, which became a huge bone of contention in your discussions, really sat as off from me from the beginning. The first sentence underlined sets up the premise (I believe this to be defintiely false) of the part you took as knowing via third-party information (Its not because you are wrong). This, really, really seemed like a stretch to me.And lastly, "it is not becuase you are wrong." you seem pretty confident about that Slappy. are you saying you know that Matt and his gang are who they say they are?
I mentioned this above. Its not a function of length, its a function of timing and content. Its also not a function of changing your connections to TS, its actually a reinforcement.3: You claim I have changed my playstyle. Now I go back to your original post where you mention the length of my case. This has given me the impression you factor my entire change in playstyle down to length, which is BS. Now your also trying to link me and TS, which obviously means you have seen connections between us in the past yes? So how can my playstyle be changed if I am following a recurring pattern of connections? Also, if you mean the change was me going from jokes to real case, then why are you upset? Your last post shows you do not think we have found any leads in a while, so me finding one should be a welcome change.
However:I will do ANOTHER reread and make sure its not simply you and TS being friends or whatever I've seen. Who did you replace in for again so I dont have to hunt it down?
I feel it is weak. Thats not a personal attack, I just think that two points in one post with 145 pages is not going to make a case I'm going to get behind in and of itself. You yourself say its not much. If it was a matter of the term weak, well, I didn't mean it as any personal affront.4: You called my case weak. I mean thats just mean. What had I ever done to you before that? To my knowledge this is the first vote put on Surye this game. At least since I replaced in. So it definitly isn't going to be super rock hard solid. And considering my case boiled down to a: A slip I thought I saw, which if it was true would be a very strong scum point, and B: My own opinions on why one action he has called scummy is in fact pro-town. Sure it's not much, and yes one point was refuted, but at the time I fully believed them both. (granted, I'm not going to try and saythis here makes you scum. No, it's more of the way I saw things happening, and hence my moodiness.)
Yes, what I've done can easily be seen as scummy - however, you're assuming I'm not going to back it up. If I'm right about TS, which I think I am, I will post all my evidence on why I'm linking the two of you and use that for a lynch. I will not back down from it though: I am saying, barring events that really alter my perception of the game, if I am right about TS I will be pursuing you and Arm very, very hard. I also know that this is going to make me a lynch candidate the whole time and, well, its going to come down to who ends up on the rope. So, yes, in most instances this is scummy (which is why I didn't want to bring it up until I was sure about TS) but with the timing of your vote on Suyre I felt it relevant.5: You have done one of the most scummy things I have ever seen. You have effectively linked me and TS in such a way that you claim should TS be scum I must automatically be lynched! You are not only trying to set up future lynches, which this close to deadline is very, very not so good town, but you are also so bold as to factor in someone's alignment in your case while that alignment is unknown. And yes, to say I will be tomorrows lynch if TS is scum IS pushing my lynch based off her alignment. In fact, should she flip scum I would think you would be the more obvious lynch candidate simply because you were trying to use her alignment as an attack this early and set up future lynches.
I dont want this to derail because, really, I'm staking my life on TS being scum. I do not want to have this spiral out of control while I'm debating with both you and Arm at the same time. I'm not afraid to go further into the links I've seen - its just a matter of timing and rereading (thats going to be a LOT of damn work and rereading if I am wrong about TS and, well, I'm lazy on some level).6: You know answer Arm by saying you do not want this to derail. But recently you told me there was no way I could derail this because you had more against TS then I was refuting. So why are you afraid of it being derailed? Why are you afraid to go further into our partnership links? is it because you realized like I did how scummy that makes you? Or is it because the only real thing you have is the fact my attack just happened to defend her, and you know that that just isn't good enough?
You've got no reason to believe it, but every time I've said if TS is scum I've got one, maybe two its been you and Arm I've been talking about. If this day hadn't went this way (and TS) was lynched I'd have done exactly what I'm saying I'm goign to do tomorrow - show why I think both of you are connected to her and vica-versa.
Damn, the Goblins must have got ya. Another good solider lost..in mid sentence .So as you see from you I've gotten the feeling you keep altering events to force me to look like scum. You seem to take my action, twist it into the scummiest thing you can make it look like, and set it out there while simultaneously accusing me of doing the exact same things you yourself are doing. And so yes, I admit I got a little hot under the collar and I do apologize, but I am getting seriously tired of this happening to me in almost every game I’m in. I understand I have crap logic at times, and am wrong on more then one occasion but I can ma
I'm really not trying to alter events - my feelings on you DO hinge, for the most part, on TS being scum. However, the only other bone of contention was about your case which, really, I didn't feel was strong.
So, yes, thats where we sit. TS is, for me, the lynch for today. If I am wrong, well, then I'm probably dead after all this. if I'm right, expect me to show how the two of you are connected.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I think really our discussion until others pipe in is going to die.However, what if matt is a scum mason, and the other two are town. Then for him to say his pm clears the others means nothing. So until the other two specifically tell us that there is reason to believe each other is town, and that there is some implication that this is true, then to press matt's claim is inheriently towny in nature. The innocent until proven guilty thing applies, but we cannot prove guilt unless we attack them correct?
If matt IS a scum mason, then the other two should NOT have the same "your partners have no evil intent" or whatever it was Matt said he got. There's really no outs - the other two HAVE to chime in now before the end of the day and if they all dont say the same thing...well, I'll take a small break from TS, lynch Matt up real quick, get myself a nice tea, and go back to lynchin TS tomorrow.
I think that is the biggest reason why I'm not worried about Matt at this point. He's tied his hands to two other players and, really, if one of them is scum they all are and I'd hope since the maf has been real good at killin townies we've got at least one role that can clear it up.
Not "not useful" - just very joking or short (in the sense of content) - this was the only real "case" on one person you've made which is, of course, why it stands out.yup... I look forward to it... although by your own words all but two of my posts have been... less then... useful? I suppose thats an ok word... so I really do look forward to arguing these links when they become needed.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Those damn ice cream trucks, WHY
You know what - I agree with you 100%. I do badger soft-claims in most cases and I tend to have a very large and prominent tinfoil hat.And just in case someone else finds the need to attack me over this.. I am not trying to imply matt is a scum mason or anything. I am simply trying to make an example that can help prove why badgering even soft-claims is not a uniquely scum tell.
It was the method that TS did it that struck a bad chord - the whole "they're not dead..." business doesn't sit well with me.
Lord I've got a headache. Some days working in front of a computer is bad news. I'm probably out for the night.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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TS and all of my connections aside, I dont know if I agree with much of your list Arm. The two other players that have been questionable, to me, are CKD and K7.
However, it's gonna take some HUGE revelation for me to not think TS is the right lynch for today.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I guess I worded it oddly.SpyreX, K7 should be on that list. I didn't like Antithesis' lack of voting at all D1 among other things, as you should remember on read.
I agree with you about K7/Antithesis, but it seem as though we agree for different reasons (you more about Antithesis / me more about K7)
Borge/Imat I can see "some" from, but I dont think they're near as off as CKD has been.
That and well, TS being town.
The rest are small shifts.
I also like the double votes without saying anything on this page. Scope - are you, in fact, a mason with Matt? Does it say you are confirmed?
The TS..well, yep, thar shure be a reason I done have my vote there.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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16 TS post ago (not too much has changed)TS wrote:Hey scumbag, why don't you vote for me a third time? You're not afraid of overkill, are you?
Thats a powerful 180 right about thar'TS wrote:CKD is town, his wagon his going to go nowhere unless the scum shovels coal into the engine.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Awesome, the twirling OMGUS defense comes out.
So, CKD, Suyre and I are all scum because we've voted for you? How about BM?
Arm, I can not for the life of me understand why you're still defending this as meta.
BM falling of the face of the earth is very questionable. CKD's behavior on the last few pages has been very poor. K7 is gone as always.
Yet, none of that even remotely changes the fact TS has been scummy and opportunistic most of the game. That doesn't change how this day has went.
I'm not, short of someone screaming from the rooftops they are scum, moving my vote.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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In my big case, using the "cult cop" as not making sense to get the cult cop hung then immediately jumping 180 to put pressure on BM? Not to mention all the other ones?
Really??-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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As long as we're clear. I enjoy playing with you - but the "meta" just makes my teeth itch and I can't see defending someone that adamantly if you don't know their alignment.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I cant do that because I think that k7 and CKD have been scummy. BM / Borge also are kind of suspect. However, I dont think TS would be a "random" lynch - I find her play FAR more suspect and scummy.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I cant do that because I think that k7 and CKD have been scummy. BM / Borge also are kind of suspect. However, I dont think TS would be a "random" lynch - I find her play FAR more suspect and scummy.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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You know what? I was all ready to post about how WTF this insta-wagon is on Bogre and how, now, I'm sure expecting him to come up town but hey.
I've tried and tried. That doesn't seem to be working.
So, instead, I'll be a COOL KID TOO.
Unvote, vote Bogre
Just for shits and giggles, someone want to pretend to sum up the case or we just powerlynching? Either way, I'm down.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Welp, Borge was scum and Armlx was town. I apparently have the worst read of what is going on ever.
Even though he was scum, I still hold a huge WTF to that lynch yesterday. I jumped on out of frustration with how the day was going but, really, how the hell did everyone come out of the waxwork to get him powerlynched?
GUESS WHERE MY VOTE IS GOING
Vote: TS
She's still scummy and, if looking at twilight, you dont think that was scummy as well I'd love to hear why. I may have been way off on Arm (and probably Korlash) but I'm not going to let this one go.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I'd love more explanation from this. Here's a few questions to start the pot a brewin:tar wrote:SpyreX needs a closer look (I didn't reread him as closely as I could have) - Andycyca was unusually contentless before he got replaced, and on first glance his play yesterday seems consistent with scum hunting rival scum.
1.) Do we have proof of rival scum factions or is this just conjecture?
2.) How would scum hunting rival scum be different than town hunting scum? (since you imply a definite difference there).
3.) Why is it today, versus all of yesterday, that you bring this up?
I'd give you an FoS, but really, whats the point.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Fair enough. With the Recruiter dead when he was and the SK dead (and the fact we haven't seen non-vig claimed kills) I haven't been thinking about a cult (I assumed with recruiter dead the cult couldn't recruit, so).1) There definitely WAS a Cult and there definitely WAS a Serial Killer, so the Selective Scumhunting tell should apply (for D1 at the very least, with a longer-lasting effect if the Mafia thinks there are surviving Cultists.
However, in my instance, I could see calling me out for tunnel vision but, really I've been about as Selective as you can get, just kill TScum and we will go from there.
Agreed, but again this is in reference to me so I'm not seeing how its applicable.The difference isn't so much how scum hunt scum so much as it is WHO they hunt - if a player in a multiple scum faction game is hunting for all scum except for one specific group, it's fairly likely that said player is a member of the group they ignore. (It's a useful enough tell for me that I have a shorthand to refer to it - Selective Scumhunting.)
1.) Fair enough.Because I only took the time to look at your predecessor overnight?
Because we actually caught a scum yesterday and I finally have something to work with?
Because I'm finally starting to get interested in this game again?
2.) Borge being scum gives something to work with on me?
3.) I understand 350%.
Actually, now, I dont. You are right that the possible existence of a Cult could cause some of the above. I'm still not sure how -I- fall into this but I know you'll explain.Go on, FoS me. You know you want to.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Now, that makes sense. Yes, I thought the whole mess was applying to me and i was confused - now that I understand I definitely agree with you on most of it. A few questions though:I think I understand the disconnect here - you seem to be operating under the assumption that I am saying that you've been committing some of these tells, while I was under the assumption that you were asking me to explain my general reasoning. (As a matter of fact, there was a reason why you couldn't understand why some of my statements would be a reference to you - namely, that they weren't a reference to you.)
Are you actually cleared or is this the "I know my alignment" conjecture? (I've honestly lost track of some things this game so this is just a question).Five of these players' identities are known (farside, MattS, Skitzer, KScope, and myself).
Agreed.I'm pretty sure at this point that TS, BM, and killa7 are all scum (either 1 Cult, 2 Mafia or 3 Mafia)
Why CKD town? He's been scummy and I wouldn't put a bus past him (or different scum group).I'm now pretty sure that CKD is town, and I'm going to assume that Tombolo is town for now (he read town when I looked over him, and even if he is scum he's not an immediate threat).
Also, I honestly forgot about Tombolo - again, why town?
I only ask because I'd say Suyre has a more "town" vibe than either of the above. I do agree about Korlash though. Of course, I dont agree about myself but.
Only one mistake. It should be claim AND die.That's lynch-2. Toaster Strudel, claim or die.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I do like grouping us together. The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.Why are Surye and Spyrex still alive? Never have I seen such blatantly manipulative scumbags.
Way back when, when I replaced in, I made my case on you (that later you even said you agreed with). Then... nothing happened and a townie died.
Then the next day... I try again. ? causes the power bandwagon and a scum is dead.. but not you who still are scummy for all of that business.
So, I stand here and do it AGAIN. And I will KEEP doing it unless something really strange happens that shifts the way the game is going.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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This claim by TS is, ultimately, not a claim yet.
It is designed to do EXACTLY what it is doing - forcing a lot of argumentative discussion about what that half claim could be.
TS, give a full and precise claim. Or, lets just hammer. Either way I dont think I'm going to buy doc AND jailer is far too convenient when, just as easily, it could be a scum RB.
Regardless, claim, for real.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Sorry, I've had a bad case of RL culminating in my 1-year wedding anniversary so I wont be around much tomorrow / Monday.Third, where's SpyreX? I want to see his reactions to all this, and he's gone and pulled a disappearing act.
HOWEVER, this situation really bothers me.
Follow along with this logic, and let me know any huge problems with it.
1.) TS is "claiming" a protective role. The two roles it could be, from what I see, is either Doc or Jailer.
2.) To "protect" herself this game TS has opted to be scummy enough to not be a NK yet somehow not get lynched for the town.
Now, PROBLEMS I have with this.
With #1:
a.) TS is claiming Doc.
Now, we've consistently had a kill. Farside has claimed since day 1 and has repeatedly been roleblocked. Without the addition of new roles being outed, why would the scum change roleblocking the one known power role and killing randoms looking for ohh.. the doc?
So, this means that TS has been repeatedly protecting the one role that the scum has made clear that they are roleblocking.
b.) TS is claiming Jailer.
I'm new, I'll admit it, but ultimately Jailer seems as though it is far more useful hunting for people to jail and then have a kill NOT occur instead of protecting a role which, by protecting it, eliminates the majority of its usefulness. The only thing I'll give is that its keeping a confirmed towny alive, but eliminating most of their usefulness.
Now, with #2.
Playing scummy - as scummy as TS has been too - to live as a power role doesn't jive. Honestly, I'd rather have my power roles be lurking instead of playing scummy and somehow not be getting hung - which, again, makes me wonder about who's been pushing lynches and why TS hasn't been a target earlier (since I'm not special and saw something that was all that hard to see).
But, even more useful.. would be the power roles behaving as proactive town looking for scum and using their powers in addition to it. Ultimately, the goal is still to kill the scum and not to be alive - behaving in an anti-town manner to stay alive isn't being helpful.
So, what I'm expecting:
TS is a mafia goon. NOT the Roleblocker. This is serving as another layer of protection for the RB.
Regardless of the claim, there's plenty to be gained for the scum depending on how it goes - either the doc counterclaims or by claiming jailer (a role that COULD be in but definitely isn't for sure) gets a safe-out for a while.
So, my feelings (I'll try to check tomorrow).
1.) TS hasn't played, to me, like either of the major roles she could be claiming would have played.
2.) Being scummy to survive but not be NK'd isn't a good defense for town - but a great way for scum to explain pushing bad lynches.
3.) TS's obvious scummy play REALLY makes me believe that she's going to be a sacrifice and not the mafia roleblocker.
4.) If the claim is doc, really think about it - but I would definitely suggest NOT having the real doc counterclaim.
5.) A claim of jailer can't really be trusted - if I'm wrong about her being the goon and she actually is the RB, this is the obvclaim.
6.) Even if I am 100% wrong about TS and she is town, CKD is very suspect in his interaction with her today. I'll give more on that when it comes.
7.) I see ABSOLUTELY NO PRO-TOWN REASON for TS stretching out this claim - but I do see how the confusion and the fact it looks like people have almost claimed as being very useful to the scum.
In conclusion, lets get a' hangin.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Every day this goes on is a day we dont hang the RB, which at this point is holding Farside at bay.How is this a protection for the RB? Also Jailer would not be a safe out...
The Jailier, the way its being "used", is not in any way discernible from that of a rolebocker - so it is a safe out.
The methods you've been arguing with her, if she is town, are suspect. Actually, I dont like them either way, so if that helps clear it up.I dont like this post either....if she is town, CKD is very suspect?....why not mention what happens if she flips scum?
...Was this even suggested? At this point, I am NOT fine with it.at this point I am fine with a mass claim.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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Before I get started, I really like this:
Korlash: Sun Sep 28, 20088:56pm Post subject: 3886
Toaster Strudel: Sun Sep 28, 20088:57pm Post subject: 3887
Just a little tidbit that make me smile, but hey.
We're gonna hit these posts intertwined, just like you two have decided to be.
TS wrote:Have I pushed "bad lynched?" No, I have not.My original case on TS (my post 14 for all the quotes wrote:Now, why this is scum play, color coded:
1.) Dark Red - When pushing for the Russo lynch, it is apparent that investigating a miller is ridiculous because they would not get an innocent regardless. However, this thought process changed very rapidly when, right after, she started pushing on BM because of the same result.
2.) Orange - Its obvious that, at this point, she is convinced CKD is scum. This is repeated MORE than once throughout the game yet, later, she says she doesn't see the CKD-loathing.
3.) Green - Claiming Russo is the delayed cult recruit (which then is pushed to BM).
4.) Violet - This one is another amazing one. She says that if Russo is town, BM is probably town. Then, when Russo comes up town, she starts using Russo's result (which again she had problems with) as a focus for her attack on BM (who she said was probably town)
5.) Indigo - Repeatedly calling the lynch a no-brainer and comparing it to the SK lynch (especially considering it was town) really struck me as an odd set of statements.
6.) Cyan - Threatening other people with the vig for not following the "no-brainer" then, later, saying directing the vig is a bad idea.
7.) Brown - Again, powerpushing for a lynch which, in reading, was weak.
So, you've got someone who's been active in pushing lynches even when they dont agree with previous statements as well as altering her viewpoints of key parts of it to push said lynches.
Yes, of course, in a game this big your thoughts on things will change - however, all of these reek of opportunism AND the fact that it has been push after push for townies doesn't help.
Why exactly am I scum?TS wrote: It's a foregone conclusion that Spyrexscum won't believe me but hey - I will really enjoy seeing you tarred and feathered when my alignment is revealed.
If, through some miraculous turn of events you ARE actually the doctor who decided to play scummy to not get nightlynched and have been protecting the same person that has been consistantly being roleblocked with no new information being given to make you think that the scum would NOT, in fact, continue to roleblock the one power role known and I get lynched for it? Well, nuts to them then. You've played scummy and if I get hung for calling you on it..woo.
By saying I would prefer, if there is a doc, to have them not claim soas to give the scum another good solid kill target?TS wrote:Hey Spyrex, you just confessed scum.
No one is going to counterclaim, but your attempt to paint me as scum by sounding 100% sure that the "real doc" should not counterclaim has not gone un-noticed. Again you show yourself a scumbag by pushing for a townie lynch.
Speaking of "bad lynches." You're the master of pushing bad lynches. I bow to you. When you publish your memoirs, I'll be first in line at the book signing.
Again, sorry I dont believe you when you've said yourself you agreed with my case on why you've been scummy. I do like all the "indignation" today when I've been pushing you from the first day I replaced into the game though.
I dont know for sure, but this play makes more sense for a scum goon to do to protect the RB.Korlash wrote:First off... How do you even know she isn't the RB? And every day what goes on?
And uh, no... Jailier is not a safe out... ironically for the exact reason you just said...
Well, if claiming "Jailer" was what turned this wagon around then its a pretty safe claim - since there is no way to tell the difference between this and a scum RB without lynching. Thats what I meant by "safe claim".
I said the method, not the content. Yes, I wanted a damn claim and I said it over and over again.Korlash wrote: Right becuase no townie would ever want a person in the caim or die territory to actually claim. damn you caught him didn't you...
So I'm scum to you now too? Ohh the slings and arrows once again.Korlash wrote:I believe Tar suggested it... and let me just say... I'm not surprised your not fine with it... But that's getting ahead of myself isn't it...
On that note, I'd do it if it happened, but I don't really believe it's that necessary yet. At least not until this thing with TS is cleared up.
I dont think we're close enough to endgame to warrant a fullclaim - it just gives information to the scum and in a game where, up to this point, we've lost more vanillas than power roles I would prefer to keep it that way.
I will never understand, if you both are town, why the hell you two are so buddy-buddy. TS has said she's playing scummy on purpose and you've been attached to the hip. It doesn't make sense to me as two players who dont know each others alignments (and we already have masons).
But, guess that just makes me scum-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I'll give you this, definitely. I'll admit part of it is the fact that "I'm going to play scummy to not get NK'd" really gets me. I cant wrap my head around it - especially the way it was.Actually by asking a "real doc" to not counterclaim you were setting up people to disbelieve TS's claim before it even happened. And uh, no offense, anyone that automatically disbelieves a doc claim is a moron.
By telling a real doc not to counterclaim you give reason why her claim would not be countered. Thus, if she is the real doctor you, as scum, could still lynch her. If you are town, you have a serious grudge against TS. If you are scum, I would bank on you being her partner in crime. And just between us, I envy you for that... lucky bastard...
So, yes, I'm definitely assuming she's scum. With that in mind, nothing like claiming doc and getting the real doc to out themselves as one last finger-in-the-eye to cripple the town.
I didn't look at it that way and it does make a lot of sense(to both the RB and the vig). So, maybe we dont have to slap fight all the live long day.Actually it makes more sense for the actual scum RB to do. By claiming doc it eliminates the threat of a tracker. A tracker would have seen the RB target farside, by claiming Doc they protect themselves from that. When i usually fakeclaim as scum I usually make sure it accounts for any targets I did during the night, just to be safe.
As far as safe claims go, Jailer would have been her undoing. To claim Jailer would be to admit she locked up the vig, which no jailer should ever do. You destroy all use that vig could do.
I guess with the size of the game I assumed that there -might- be enough scum left to cripple it enough that they might slip by. Of course, assuming our masons are masons (which I do) then its going to be moot anywho.Massclaim actually, but I get what you meant. Well... Seeing as how the Sk and cult are dead... and seeig as how three mafia are already caught... A massclaim may just help out the last one or two scum remaining.
I'll crack jokes, believe it or not. I try to have fun with it - but, really, I like to win. I like the mental battle between town and scum and I love the one-upmanship in figuring out the next moves. Thats the only reason why, friendship aside, I can't understand being -that- buddy buddy.Just because we are friends doesn't mean anything. This is a game dude. what's the point in playing if I can't have fun? And just becuase TS may have been given a mafia role in this game doesn't mean I have to treat her any differently. Jeeze you take this game way too seriously...
But, maybe you're right and I just need to take a step back. Even if I do, TS is still scum though.
I bet we will. It'll be a hoot. We can get all the old anger fired back up and e-yell until our ihearts run out.No, you being scum makes you scum, scum. XD see, never gets old...
And uh, before you go crazy nuts relax. I don't think your scummy enough to be bothered to make a case, I just like usuing the nickname... But uh, tomorrow... we're gunna talk... <.<... scum...-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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