Mafia 87 - New Age Mafia - Game Over!

[iamausername]

/confirm.

[iamausername]

Using Caboose algorithm for psychoanalysis of posts, I have determined that, without a doubt, al4xz is scum.

Vote: al4xz

Wow, awesome!

Vote: al4xz

[iamausername]

Rolefishing is when you try to get people to accidentally give clues about what their role is. It's bad for the town, because it helps scum figure out their optimal night kill choice. It's not bad for the scum, because it helps scum figure out their optimal night kill choice.

[iamausername]

There's also the 'CPR doctor', who protects his target if someone tries to kill them, but kills them if no one else tries to. It would actually make sense to tell that kind of doctor what they are.

[iamausername]

There are valid reasons for a vigilante to kill on Night 0, and this should not be discussed any further, because more people saying how stupid it is for a vig to kill on N0 just narrows down the scum's search if it turns out a vig

did

kill N0, since they can assumably rule those people out.

Juls, do you think being named after a text editor is a more valid reason for a vote than whatever it is you're FoSing Zade for?

[iamausername]

And I'm not sure about the rules on editing here, I know we frown on it at the otehr site I play mafia on

Yeah, you can't edit posts here. Like, not only is it not allowed, it's also physically impossible for you to do so. Go on, try it.

FoS is basically getting up on a high horse and saying

I formally accuse you of suspicious activity using

bold

text!

when that should already be apparent from your reason for your FoSing in the first place. In other words, it's overrated, pretentious, and only good for being parodied (i.e. Middle Finger of Suspicion).

Vi is obvtown. OK, no. But she is awesome.

good start with the goon being killed.

My new #2 scum suspect. Sheh + Der = scumpair.

Hmm, thats exactly the sort of reaction I was probing for.
Your my new #4 scum suspect.

So wait, are you saying you did something deliberately scummy to see who would call you on it, and that anyone who does so is suspicious?

Unvote, Vote: Der Hammer

.

Also, if strife is #4, who are the first three?

On the other hand; strife, you specifically mentioned Hammer as Zade's scum partner. Is there anything that specifically links them to each other, or is it just "I think Zade is scum and I think Hammer is scum, therefore they are scum together"?

---

I think Percy has some excellent points against Zade, but he has enough votes to be getting along with for now. We'll see how he responds.

[iamausername]

YOu'll call it out as rolefishing again, even though it's only Mafia-related roles and a cop, which is a normal role anyhow.

Are you suggesting that a cop being a more commonly appearing role than an insane doctor makes it more OK for you to fish for one?

Also, where's iamausername?

I'm around. Not getting a particularly good handle on the game. I should probably try reading through those gigantic Scheherazade/Percy posts again and see if I can get anything useful out of them, but I'm not hopeful, because my first attempt proved terribly unsuccessful.

[iamausername]

Hey, posting a quick note in all my games to say I'm still here, but been rather unexpectedly busy the last couple of days. I should be back to full strength posting tomorrow.

[iamausername]

good start with the goon being killed.

My new #2 scum suspect. Sheh + Der = scumpair.

Hmm, thats exactly the sort of reaction I was probing for.

Your my new #4 scum suspect.

Der Hammer, was the bolded sentence in this post serious or not?

I'd much rather No Lynch than Quick-And-Thoughtless lynch.

I wouldn't. I mean, Careful Well Thought Out Lynch would obviously be the optimum, but Quick And Thoughtless Lynch beats No Lynch for sure.

[iamausername]

If I remember my MD threads correctly, they're like Millers for Trackers; if they get tracked, they'll be seen to target whoever dies that night.

Never seen them used in a game before, but maybe that's what makes it "New Age", eh?

Gonna

Vote: al4xz

because I

really

don't like his "Oh God, I'm so sorry for hammering!" post, it definitely strikes me as coming from someone who already knew the Der Hammer lynch was a bad one.

[iamausername]

If I remember my MD threads correctly, they're like Millers for Trackers; if they get tracked, they'll be seen to target whoever dies that night.

See this thread and note the fact that OGML posted in it.

[iamausername]

Gonna Vote: al4xz because I

really

don't like his "Oh God, I'm so sorry for hammering!" post,

it definitely strikes me as coming from someone who already knew the Der Hammer lynch was a bad one.

I don't understand. Are you saying that al4xz as scum would have posted this to somehow prevent suspicion from being cast on him after Der Hammer turned up town?

I suppose I want to know what you mean by a "bad" lynch and what you think al4xz was trying to do by posting that.

Yes, I think he was trying to disassociate himself from a townie lynch by pretending that he hadn't

really

intended for Der Hammer to be lynched.

By 'bad' lynch, I mean bad for the town, ie. a lynch of a townie.

[iamausername]

al4xz is not the one who hammered. The hammer was by Gerrendus.

I'm aware of this, and I don't see how it has any bearing on my case. Regardless of whether he actually dropped the hammer, al did make that post.

So, that is who I am looking at right now. He placed the final vote, then claimed he did not know it was the deciding vote.

But he also didn't try to pretend that he wasn't placing the vote with the intention of getting Der Hammer lynched, just that he hadn't realised quite how soon it would happen.

I'm not saying Ger is totally squeaky clean, but I find his reaction much less suspicious than al's.

[iamausername]

To the people suspicious of Al4xz and/or Gerrendus: I'm assuming this means you are just as much if not more suspicious of Scheh? Their actions making them scum only really makes sense to me under the assumption that Scheh is also scum.

How so?

I voted him because I thought it would put him in L-1, L-2, etc.

If you knew he was this close to lynch, why didn't you check the votecount before voting to make sure you weren't lynching him?

[iamausername]

iamausername: You voted for Der Hammer early yesterday, but disappeared for a while. What's your opinion of the Der Hammer wagon?

I might not have been posting a lot, but I was following closely enough to move my vote if I felt there was a need. Since I didn't move my vote, clearly I didn't have a problem with the wagon.

I think his writing off half of his own posts as jokes was extremely suspect when there wasn't any clear distinction between these posts and his 'serious' posts, and I don't think anyone is overly suspicious for voting him on this basis. I mean, the people on the wagon should be under scrutiny, especially if it later turns out that Zade is scum, but right now I don't think it should be particularly higher than the scrutiny that everybody should be under.

To me, if you don't give the guy-who-everyone-wants-to-lynch (DH) a final chance to defend himself/herself, then you deny the town possible information, more or less depending on what role they were. If they were a Townie, normal final attempt to defend themselves, post their suspiscions, etc. Scum, more or less not too much information if you lynch them before they have a chance to speak, unless there are two scum groups. Cop, lots of information - results, suspiscions, a "investigation failed" PM (meaning there is a roleblocker), etc.
However, by lynching DH before the Town gave him a chance to speak, you are denying the Town alot of information.

Does this mean you weren't aware that Der Hammer had already claimed vanilla townie when you cast your vote?

At the risk of speculating about setup I would like to say that with two kills the previous night we should all keep in the back of our minds that there appear to be two killing factions and we should thus exercise care in our lynches or we may be unable to recover.

As opposed to a game with one killing faction, where you should throw caution to the wind and lynch people at random? What is the point of this comment?

If Scheh were town, I don't think they would have been making those comments. I don't even think they would have bothered changing their vote, since a lynch on either Scheh or Der would have essentially been the same. Why risk getting more attention on yourself unless you were protecting your partner?

Even if Zade is town, I think they'd have an incentive to switch votes just to end the day as soon as possible, before anyone had a chance to present a decent case on anyone else and maybe stop us from limiting ourselves to two lynch candidates. If it didn't seem like anyone was particularly eager to switch from Hammer to Zade, and I think that was probably the case, then they'd have to go the other way for this to happen.

---

I do think it's odd that not a single person is voting for Scheherazade today, when he was one of the two prime lynch candidates yesterday, and the other guy turned up town.

Gerrendus, Jazzmyn, DoomCow, Caboose. You were all voting Scheherazade for a significant period of D1; what's changed since then to keep you from voting him now?

[iamausername]

I might not have been posting a lot, but I was following closely enough to move my vote if I felt there was a need. Since I didn't move my vote, clearly I didn't have a problem with the wagon.

So you were lurking...?

Oh, most definitely.

[iamausername]

How's it going? The lurking, I mean. ^^;

Pretty good. Got a nice groove going.

[iamausername]

@iamausername: I'm cool with that. What are you doing with all the free time you have, since you're not spending it posting?

Been playing a lot of Guitar Hero lately. \m/

al4xz is at L-2. He should probably claim.

[iamausername]

Also, what kind of emote is \m/?

It's the devil-horns hand sign thing. The slashes are the index and pinky fingers, the m is the middle and ring fingers.

RAWK. \m/

I'm told that claims are supposed to be last-resortish defenses. Should al4xz claim when he's still just at L-2?

Eh, no one else has more than a single vote, and it doesn't seem like anyone is eager to start any new wagons going. Holding off until someone bothers to put the L-1 vote on seems like it's just splitting hairs.

[iamausername]

Puta Puta is not wrong. It is time for an al4xz claim.

[iamausername]

Puta Puta is not wrong. It is time for an al4xz claim.

I would argue that Puta Puta is not right, but about something different.

A reaction to the PP vote would be nice.

A reaction from me, you mean? Does "Puta Puta is not wrong" not count as a reaction?

OK, I think it's clear that Puta Puta has decided that being unhelpful is a valid strategy, and I hope we have a vig who can deal with him, but right now I don't think we should let his irreverance distract us from the issue of how al4xz is totally scum.

[iamausername]

@ PutaPuta: Sigh, you are either going to get us killed or yourself killed. I prefer the latter.

Unvote: al4xz

He will not be forgotten. If someone replaces him, they will have to carry the weight next phase.

Right now, I think this has to happen, despite what I said earlier just thinking Puta Puta was playing like a fool.

Vote: Puta Puta

IAWTP.

Unvote, Vote: Puta Puta

Claim, contribute or die.

[iamausername]

EVERYBODY, PUTA PUTA IS NOW AT L-1

IF YOU VOTE HIM, HE'S DEAD

YOU CAN'T MISS THIS

for all the al4xzs out there.

[iamausername]

Self hammering would be choosing one of the three options I offered at the end there, so I'd be fine with that possiblity.

The second post was made to stop anyone else hammering before Puta Puta has the chance to decide if he wants to start playing the game he signed up for.

[iamausername]

Yeah, I'm going to need verification from the partner on this one.

Also,

Mod, can we get an al4xz replacement? He clearly hasn't responded to his prod from 5 days ago.

[iamausername]

Not yet Iam. It's better to know if the masons are confirmed by the mod.

Fair point. Puta Puta, do you know for sure if your partner is town (and vice versa)?

Deadline will be at 10 PM GMT on Saturday.

Crap, somehow I thought we had another week.

[iamausername]

Deadline's in about 6 hours. If we don't get a claim for PP's alleged partner very soon, it's going to be too late.

Frankly, even if he is telling the truth, I don't think it'd be a great loss if he gets lynched. Masons don't have a night action, and Puta Puta is clearly not going to provide any help during the day, so all we'd actually lose out on is numbers.

[iamausername]

It's PBPA time, bitches.

Caboose

Seems very measured and reasonable in his approach to Zade's supposed rolefishing, which is what initally brought suspicion onto Zade.

Now that we know that both Zade and Der Hammer were town, it obviously wouldn't matter to scum which one actually got lynched. Caboose initially says he wants more time to make a decision between the two, because they're both scummy, then spots a contradiction in Zade's claims and gives him a nice bold vote in huge text. This does read like he was genuinely trying to figure out which of two was the more likely to be scum, so he's coming off as pretty town from D1.

I do still find it odd how he backs off from Zade on D2 after having such conviction about him at the end of D1, but since Zade was town, it doesn't really make sense as scum behaviour. Early vote on the Puta Puta wagon, as well. This guy is pretty much the last person I'd want to lynch today.

DoomCow

Needs to post more, for a start. D1, he didn't say anything at all about anyone but TAX, which was little more than a random vote, and Zade, which was very much just regurgitating the points everyone else had already made against him.

Early D2 posts strike me as waiting around to see where the popular vote was heading before making a choice between al4xz and Zade, which, of course, went to al4xz when it was clear that he was the popular choice. And the mention of Juls (who was replaced by Puta Puta) in Post #377 looks so much like distancing it's unreal. "Said some strange things"; what things? "Caused some confusion"; where? How?

DoomCow disappeared again before Puta Puta started being a big attention whore, so there's no reaction to that wagon to analyse, but this all seems extremely voteworthy already.

Gerrendus

Another one who butted heads with Zade on D1 (is there anyone who didn't?). He at least put some effort into bringing new points to the table and pressing Zade for further explanations.

I don't like the first sentence in Post #233; this came in response to Zade pointing out that everyone was focusing on two or three players only and allowing most everyone else to go by without pressure, which was a fair one. Now I'll freely admit that I've probably been guilty of the same, but the way Gerrendus justifies it here really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, that is the approximate number of mafia (probably a slightly low estimate; 4 mafia and an SK seems like the most likely arrangement to me right now), but that only justifies the narrow focus if you're focusing on the right players, and the chances of catching the entire mafia team on D1 in a large game are pretty damn small.

His making a big deal about how Zade should be the D1 lynch in Post #276 and then turning around and hammering Der Hammer a few hours later is definitely very off. As is the fact that he apparently didn't realise he was hammering; since they knew a townie was getting lynched either way, scum obviously had less reason to pay attention to the votecount. I let him slide for this yesterday because I thought al4xz's comments in twilight were even more suspicious, but the fact that I was wrong there doesn't change the fact that Ger's behaviour here is extremely suspect.

I find his total lack of reaction to Puta Puta's reasonless L-1 vote on al4xz very fishy, especially given that he'd spoken out as being against an al lynch. It isn't until Puta Puta is at L-1 that Gerrendus even acknowledges the wagon.

Also worth noting; in his final post of D2 (#481), he objects to my suggestion that a Puta Puta lynch wouldn't be too bad even if he was town, because "too many "all we're losing is numbers" and we're screwed." even though Gerrendus himself made essentially the same argument about the Der Hammer lynch on D1.

Jazzmyn

Much like Caboose, she takes her time in deciding between Zade and DH, but specifically says after reading through that she doesn't find DH suspicious, which seems to be carried through in the rest of her D1 posts, though she does later make the concession that DH, even if not scummy, was certainly 'useless'.

Post #337 I like. Unlike everyone else I called out there, she doesn't try to make an excuse for not carrying her Zade vote through to D2, which I think is a more town-like reaction, even though the vote was a wrong one.

Even though we now know that his motives were pure in pursuing a case against Jazzmyn, I still don't find Zade's arguments against her to be particularly convincing. I don't see that she was just parrotting the arguments of others to even nearly the extent that, say, DoomCow was.

I do find her post discussing her opinions of players besides Zade (#422), in the sense that she doesn't seem to actually have much of an opinion on anyone else besides maybe al4xz. It's all rather non-commital, so now that those are the only players left around, I'd definitely like to hear her opinions at this point.

ribwich

He made a non-random vote on known scum Juls in Post #73. It's early enough in the game that this was very unlikely to lead to a lynch, so it could potentially be scum distancing, but it still put some pressure onto Juls, so I'll give ribwich town points for this.

Early on he's very forgiving of Zade's mistakes, but does a total 180 on this later on when Zade starts to become the clear vote leader. His reasoning for this switch is fairly solid, but it still concerns me. Especially given that he starts to downplay his suspicions of Zade again later when he switches to the DH wagon.

His actions from the start of D2 seem very town, however. Though I don't really agree with his point that the suspicion on al4xz and Gerrendus only makes sense if Zade was scum, it doesn't seem particularly likely that scum would go against the al4xz wagon with this argument, given that al and Zade were both town. His attempt to put some pressure on TAX in Post #328 rather than continuing the drive against Zade looks good too. And he was the very first vote on Puta Puta too. I don't want to give Puta votes too much weight, because if there was ever a time when scum would opt to bus, I think being saddled with Gimbo as a partner would be it, but the earliest votes on that wagon are probably a slight town tell, at least.

Tom Mason

AKA, Bob Higgs, but he didn't actually do anything. I do like how I'm not having to deal with analysing players who have been replaced multiple times here, that always makes things harder.

Tom comes in towards the end of D1, decides to go with a DH vote, it's pretty much a null tell. D2 opens, and he points at Gerrendus as his prime suspect for the suspicious hammer vote, but after just one post from me explaining why I found al4xz the more suspicious of the two, Tom changes his mind and goes a long with that. Kind of a weak point, but it possibly shows signs of distancing. However, even if his vote goes to al4xz, Tom does continuing pressuring Ger for explanations too, which I think is a point in his favour.

Post #410 does look pretty bad, given Puta Puta and al4xz's alignments, but since my own behaviour around this time was extremely similar, I can't be too down on Tom for this without coming across as a big ol' hypocrite.

Vi

I've had a strong feeling that Vi is town since very early on, and nothing has yet happened to change that.

Liek ribwich, she made a non-random vote on known scum Juls (in Post #75; everything I said about ribwich's vote applies here too.

Throughout D1, she's constantly keeping her vote away from the Zade/DH wagons and trying to get some pressure elsewhere (the Juls vote, as mentioned, TAX in Post #111 and al4xz in #161).

Post #238: yesssssssssss. This might be even better than the one about how dumb FoSes are. Why aren't you in more of my games, Vi?

Seriously, I cannot find a single suspicious thing that Vi has done. Not one.

ZazieR

For some reason I am really surprised to discover that ZazieR is in this game, and has been from the start. Everyone else who's left around has been noticeable in some way, but ZazieR has apparently been completely invisible to me.

Post #244 is really silly; of course DH was going to vote Zade when it came down to a choice between Zade and himself. He knew he was town, he didn't know Zade was town, so doing anything else would have been flat out stupid. And I get a niggling feeling from the post that maybe ZazieR already knew that Zade was town, although I can't pinpoint any explicit slip anywhere.

She puts together a very strong case against al4xz on D2, which seems like a slight town-tell; I think scum would be a little more likely to just go along with the good enough case that had already been posted against him. I actually remember this case completely convincing me that my initial suspicion against al4xz was justified, even if I didn't remember that it was ZazieR who posted it; this is why I was reluctant to switch over to Puta Puta when he started playing the fool.

Post #457 is interesting, and a possible attempt to discredit the Puta Puta wagon. Why did you ask this, ZazieR?

---

I'm fairly torn between DoomCow and Gerrendus as to which one is the bigger obvscum, but for now, I'm going to go with a

Vote: DoomCow

[iamausername]

Well, the reason for what I said in post 377 was because, during mid day 1, Juls did some things that sparkled my attention, mostly the posts that she made before asking for replacement. It was enough to get noticed, but not enough to get a vote, especially since she asked for the replacement.

Could you possibly be a little more specific? What exactly was it about these posts that drew your attention?

And some thoughts on who you think is scum now that everyone you previously suspected is dead would be nice, too.

I didn't address Puta Puta's L-1 Vote (Here I mean his placing al4xz at L-1) because it didn't seem necessary.

So, someone puts an L-1 vote on a player that you have explicitly stated that you are opposed to lynching, and freely admits that this vote is not because they find that player suspicious, but simply because "claims are fun and exciting", and you don't feel that that is worthy of mention?

Really?

[iamausername]

Regarding post 244
No, it wasn't helpful of DH. When you are town, town is the first priority and you have to do whatever you can to achieve our goal. That doesn't mean that you should vote the player with the most votes after you as it's possible that he's a townie as well. And it appeared that that was the case.

Right, and letting yourself get lynched would not be achieving that goal. I'm not saying DH did a good job; clearly if he had, he wouldn't have been lynched. But since it had obviously come down to a choice between himself and Zade, choosing Zade was the best option for him. Yes, it was possible Zade was town as well, but from DH's point of view, it was a choice between a possible townie and a

guaranteed

townie.

Just assume that after DH vote, that everybody would have voted Scheza and he was the lynch instead of DH. Don't you think that day 2 everybody would have jumped back onto DH's wagon?

You mean like how everyone jumped back onto Zade's wagon on D2 when DH got lynched? Oh wait, that never happened. Funny.

He should have posted why Scheza deserved to die, instead of him. That would have been much better than just vote him in order to survive.

Well, yeah, that would have been better. That doesn't make what he did

wrong

, it just makes it sub-optimal.

The only ones who need to survive are scum and ,if we have one, the SK.

Survival perhaps shouldn't be a townie's primary goal, but it certainly should be one of their goals. Or, at least, survival during the day; you could argue that a vanilla townie should be trying to attract the night kill to keep it away from power roles. But they shouldn't be trying to get lynched, that's for sure.

Look, say the votes right now were tied 4-4 between you and, I don't know, ribwich, you were the only one not voting, the deadline is a couple of days off and no one was willing to change their vote. Who would you vote for?

Regarding post 457
I didn't get the impression that everyone was voting him for finding him scummy. Especially Percy's, TM's and IAAU's posts. Including that I think that there are 2 scum factions and a SK/vig, it seems more like following.

Fair enough. It is true that I didn't think Puta was the

most

scummy player at that time, because I was still convinced that al4xz was scum. But he was still very scummy, and I felt that he was a distraction that needed to be dealt with sooner, rather than later. I originally hoped we could delay it until after the al4xz lynch, because if we have a vig, Puta Puta would be the obvious target, and I'd rather have lynched the on I thought was most likely scum. But I guess it worked out pretty well the other way round anyway. (Well, maybe. Frankly, any of last night's kills would make sense as the vig kill, and I'm pretty puzzled as to why scum would off any of them.)

But you may also explain the last sentence of 451 IAAU.

I thought it was fairly obvious; I was referencing the way that al4xz (and Gerrendus) claimed not to realise how many votes Der Hammer had at the time of his lynch. I wanted to make it abundantly clear on Puta Puta so nobody could use the excuse of "accidentally" hammering again.

I am just curious how you see a stronger case head-to-head for DoomCow over Gerrendus.

So my question is: What gives the edge to DoomCow for your vote?

The case against DoomCow certainly looks less substantial when measured side-by-side with the Gerrendus case, but that's mainly because DoomCow's post history is so insubstantial. But if I look at it percentage-wise; what

proportion

of DoomCow's total posted content is suspicious? That, to me, comes out to be larger than the same measure on Gerrendus.

Anyway, my vote is certainly subject to change depending on their responses today; it is still a very slim margin between them, and either one could easily tip the scales the other way.

[iamausername]

I didn't address Puta Puta's L-1 Vote (Here I mean his placing al4xz at L-1) because it didn't seem necessary.

So, someone puts an L-1 vote on a player that you have explicitly stated that you are opposed to lynching, and freely admits that this vote is not because they find that player suspicious, but simply because "claims are fun and exciting", and you don't feel that that is worthy of mention?

Really?

Thank you for taking it out of context. I realize that that statement OUT OF CONTEXT seems scummy

OK, sorry, here it is in context:

I didn't address Puta Puta's L-1 Vote (Here I mean his placing al4xz at L-1) because it didn't seem necessary. Everyone was aware that al4xz was at L-1, and no one was willing to vote for him until we could hear from him. I had said before of al4xz that I wanted to hear from him. Seeing as no one was going to hammer him, because we know what happened with the previous hammer, then I felt I was okay in leaving it at my desire to hear more from him.

So, someone puts an L-1 vote on a player that you have explicitly stated that you are opposed to lynching, and freely admits that this vote is not because they find that player suspicious, but simply because "claims are fun and exciting", and you don't feel that that is worthy of mention?

Really?

---

But seriously, you seem to be missing the point here; it's not that you didn't address the matter of "al4xz is at L-1" that makes me suspicious, it's that you didn't address the matter of "Puta Puta votes someone not because he finds them suspicious, but because 'claims are fun and exciting'."

I was still undecided about the al4xz matter, I believed that it was possible for al4xz to be scum, and I wanted to hear further from him.

This is really fence-sitting bullshit. Allow me to direct your attention to this quote:

So doing the read through I can see why some of the suspicion is directed at al4xz, however, I am not sure if I can necesarilly agree. Now, simply because he and I are guilty of the same sin of omission (here meaning our omission as to chekcing the VC, albeit his vote was laready placed) does not mean anything. It is possible taht his motives were scummy, however I am satisfied with the defenses he has given. Although they are the same as mine, I feel taht I cannot fully fault him for that

If you were "satisfied with the defenses he had given", what more, exactly, were you hoping to hear from him?

at one point we found enough reason for al4xz to be at L-1, we had not heard from him in over a week, while he was at L-1, and you don't want a little extra time to consider the possibilities there against the possibilities of PP?

Why are you saying 'we', as if you were in any way part of the group that found reason to put al4xz at L-1?

---

iamausername

~ If it hasn't yet been made obvious, you are ringing up as Weird to me just as far as your gameplay has gone. You jumped on Der Hammer early and faded out, went for al4xz early on and then made a late jump onto Puta Puta (how about I shorten that to Gimbo from now on) after initially agreeing with him and trying to continue with the al4xz lynch. That last part is what solidifies my suspicion. I like your contribution today though.

Perfectly understandable. I don't really have anything more to say in my defense than what I've already said; I really, really thought that al4xz was scum.

You did not wish to vote Gimbo for his meta in another game, it seems... which is almost a null-tell, except--

I realize that it might just be his way of trying to establish a mechanism for avoiding being lynched

when he

[Puta Puta]

is scum in other games

, of course, but for what it's worth, there it is.

THIS needs explaining.

I'm confused as to what you find so problematic in this quote, Vi.

Why aren't you in more of my games, Vi?

You should probably be glad for it; a bunch of my games have wound up being modless train wrecks. (Praise be to Incog-Co-Mod!)

The Mafia gods are punishing you joining the wrong games (the right games are the games that I am in. Obviously.) I just looked at your records, and I am astonished by how many abandoned games you've managed to be in, I really didn't think they were very common at all on this site.

But hay, after this game we can IC together or something.

Hell yes. Let's teach some noobs to throw their vote around with reckless abandon and never, ever FoS.

Everyone who has not laid out suspect(s) for today yet should, frankly. Still to go: DoomCow, Cabüse, ribwich, Jazzmyn, Gerrendus (sorta), and ZazieR.

Hearty seconds for this. Especially DoomCow.

[iamausername]

First of all, I want to direct everyone's attention to this:

This game will have set deadlines. Days one and two will have three week deadlines,

all subsequent days will have two week deadlines.

We don't have a lot of time today.

What does IAWTP stand for?

It stands for "I am with this post". I was saying my reasoning for the vote hop was much the same as Tom's.

I'm thinking about the numbers (6:2:1 definitely seems most likely) and wondering if today is the day for massclaim. If it's not, I think tomorrow certainly will be. What does everyone else think?

[iamausername]

Mod, lets get some good hard prods on ZazieR and DoomCow

.

Given the large number of kills and the high numbers of vanillas/Milleresques that have flipped, it would be better to wait until tomorrow. Outing power roles now would be similar to sending the scum a hit list with a love note.

OTH, with the large number of VTs/GDs down, there's a high chance of scum hitting power roles tonight even without them having claimed, since for balance reasons, there's got to be a high ratio of power to non-power amongst the remaining townies (Or less scum than I thought, I guess). And if they're going to die anyway, it would be better if they shared any info they've got before doing so.

Another quote that jumps out at me--

If I were scum, I would have voted for DerHammer somewhere around the middle of the pack and been quite happy with a town lynch, any town lynch.

There's a glaringly obvious problem with this statement. If you need a hint, look at posts 179 and 183.

Heh. Good one. But, it ignores the most important point, which is that if I was scum, I would have been happy with any town lynch at all, and it ignores the glaringly obvious point that, if I was scum, I would most certainly not have pointed out where I would vote on any given bandwagon, especially if I had, in fact, voted for someone in roughly the same area of a given bandwagon. I was born at night, yes, but it wasn't

last

night.

Actually, I believe you are ignoring the real most important point, which is that if you are scum, it is in your interest to make us believe that you would do things differently to the way you have been doing them. This makes any post saying "If I was scum, I'd have done this" inherently untrustworthy.

Some thoughts on Gerrendus and the case presented by myself and followed up by Vi would be appreciated.

I'm still not remotely satisfied with DoomCow's performance thus far, so my vote is staying where it is for now. But since deadline rules mean we need three votes for a lynch to happen at deadline today, I'd certainly be willing to supply that third vote on Ger if nothing changes by then. 6/9 players not voting is ridiculous, though.

[iamausername]

Gerrendus is at L-1. Claim time.

Again, couches PP's behavior as "unhelpful" and not "scummy."

I don't believe that Gimbo's behaviour was scummy. That would imply that it suggested he was more likely to be scum than not, which I didn't find to be true. He acted exactly the same way in all of his games. The fact that he turned out to actually be scum in this game is pure coincidence.

I can understand why people thought he was worth voting, because that kind of player is never going to be any help even if they are town, and you don't want to have to deal with making a decision about them in lylo. But I challenge anyone to show me that he was doing anything he wouldn't have done as town.

[iamausername]

Sigh... Someone just vote him off then we do not have to spend a year waiting for a replacement.

It is tempting, I must admit. But I at least want to wait to see what Huntress has to say when she's caught up. More input from DoomCow would be nice too, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one.

[iamausername]

Cops should investigate players they have no read on, not players they (and a whole lot of others, to boot) already find suspicious. Of course, whether or not DoomCow subscribes to that particular philosophy is another matter.

That's not the biggest issue I'm seeing with Tar's claim either way. The lack of a N0 action (or any note that none occured) makes me think maybe Tar forgot this was a night start in making up a fake claim. Although, a bit of reverse-Burden-of-Proficiency; Tar is not a player I'd expect to be that sloppy.

I'm still in favour of massclaim. I'm always in favour of massclaim. But unless everybody else is claiming too, no vig should counter Tar if they shot Zade, they should just shoot Tar tonight instead.

[iamausername]

@Imausername: What do you think about Tar's PbPa on Jazz? Is it enough to see her claim?

Whether it is 'enough to see her claim' is not for me alone to decide; if enough people are convinced by it for her to be in danger of being lynched (as, apparently, did happen), then she should claim. Otherwise, she should not (unless we go ahead with the massclaim, of course). Personally, I don't think the Jazzmyn case is as strong as the Gerrendus/DoomCow cases, so I wouldn't have been involved in driving her to a claim even if it hadn't already happened.

This would explain why nobody was killed during N1 if it's the truth.

9. Percy - Grave Digger - Killed Night 1
16. strife220 - Grave Digger - Killed Night 1

???

Interestingly enough, DoomCow expressed suspicion on Day 1 on TAX, whom nobody else seemed to find suspicious, and who was a relative unknown...

This is more reasonable than arguing that DoomCow obviously would have investigated Zade, certainly, but there's still no reason to believe that DoomCow is the kind of player who investigates people he is already suspicious of. And I think saying that "nobody else seemed to find TAX suspicious" is really bending the truth.

I am not forgetting about Jahudo, however. I still think you have some making up to do for your predecessor. And I do not particularly like you jumping right in line with Tarhar for the case against Jazz.

Vote: Jazzmyn

Tom, if you're so concerned by Jahudo's leaping onto the Jazz wagon, why are you willing to immediately do the same thing yourself? This seems rather contradictory.

---

At this point, I think a Jahudo lynch makes the most sense. I'm still not seeing anyone to be nearly as scummy as DoomCow and Gerrendus were, and Tar's claim, plus what's reading to me as a fairly genuine scumhunting effort in building a case on Jazzmyn, make him the less worthy lynch of the two.

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

[iamausername]

Wait, we won? Wow. I totally sucked in this game, and clearly do not deserve the win, but I'll take it anyway! Vi and Caboose both had me utterly fooled.

N0 I tracked Vi to nowhere
N1 I tracked TAX/Percy II to nowhere
N2 I tracked al4xz/armlx to nowhere
N3 I tracked ZazieR/Rhinox to myself.

So, that was all a total waste of my power. Tracking al4xz especially was a really poor choice, in retrospect.

Good game, all (minus Gimbo, obv).