large normal 243: lindOVER

[Glitch]

Mod

: Vote count is incorrect, this is my first post and as such I have not voted yet. Thanks for modding a large. That’s a big task to take on but I love a good large so thanks for the work you’re putting in.

Hello all. Been two years since I played but I’m excited to be back. I saw a few others are back from hiatus as well. I imagine some of us are back cause of the newsletter. I know I am. Cool deal.

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Glitch]

Lots of talk about RVS and how useful/useless it is so far. Let’s railroad someone and see what happens from there. Maybe some actual content will start.

VOTE: Hu Tao

you don't think there's anything of note in the last 3 pages?

Actual content sure. Noteworthy and AI, on page 3 not really.

I will say I’m so glad there’s not 406 pages to read between signing on. My last large I could barely keep up.

Going in to work but I’ll be back with a few thoughts after my work day. VOTE: Unvote

[Glitch]

Hello all, sorry for being so inactive. I came down with a fever Friday night and felt like death all day yesterday. Much better today. Taking some time to dive deeper through the thread from the beginning. As I go I'll make a few posts so I don't end up with one big wall of text.

Page 1
Post 21 breaks right out of the gate with horrible logic. Bub light SR’s Kawaii or Hu Tao saying their “hello” posts were scummy for not contributing anything and being non-commital. Bub admits that it’s weak and it is. However he makes a somewhat more palatable point that based on intros alone, Kawaii and Hu Tao are not scum together because 18+19 as both scum would be unlikely. However IMO this is underestimating the power of scum theatre.

Page 2
Post 30 I appreciate ballpoint calling out the bad reasoning in 21.

33 strikes me as quite off. Curiouskarmadog quotes the terrible post 21, agrees with it, and then just jumps on to the other person that was framed as scummy for saying hello. Curious says that they dislike players getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. But Curious just jumps on to the reasoning in 21, which was bad reasoning to begin with, uses it to cast a vote without having to do anything, then turns and says they’re suspicious of Bub for FOSing. ???

In 38, when confronted on the weakness of the reasoning in 21, Bub immediately recants saying "yeah I know it's weak logic but I said it was in the original post." But I appreciate in 39 the dig to generate conversation.

In 41 Cephrir says "everything so far is NAI" and then STD FOS's Cephrir. Why?

46: I think ballpoint reasons in a way that I relate with a lot. I appreciate the way they think and examine things.

let me play the devil's advocate to your accusation: what you pointed out isn't unique to those two users, since savethedragons (i'll abbreivate to STD if that's ok) also just said "hi" without casting a vote, so wouldn't the same kind of logic apply to them?

and while people do vote for reasons during rvs its redundant because these are completely unaligned reasons that would be the same regardless of rand, so the votes are equally as non-commital and passive as the entrances, and the argument falls apart pretty quickly because of that

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

I'm with

STD

and

Cephrir

on this one.

And, as a matter of fact, one game when I was mafia, I tried pushing a similar point to move up the pace and fake a contribution.

This is weird. What has STD said that makes you "with them?" STD has contributed practically nothing. What are you talking about?

---

Be back with more in a bit.

[Glitch]

Alright, picking up where I left off.

flavor leaf replaces dionysus

Oh this will be fun. I think I modded a game with fl once and I enjoyed their playstyle.

Ballpoint feels scummiest to me so far on gut instinct alone, feel like they're picking/probing at a lot of things in a way that makes them look busy and inquisitive but without there being much substance beyond that. There's a caginess to their play but also a desire to look busy and active that isn't chiming with me so far.

Hu Tao feels a little bit scummy too.

saying less is better than saying more
ive learned quite a bit from my interactions, but the better question is whether you have as well, and what you want to do with that information

This reply doesn't particularly make me feel any better about you being town. Again it's very cagey - I'm not saying you're saying nothing at all, my claim is I feel you've been cagey and are trying to look busier than you are in reality and posts like this look like you're trying to put across a viewpoint or defend your playstyle without saying much at all.

"Saying less is better than saying more" is a bit of a vague platitude which can seem wise on a surface level but it doesn't really mean much beyond that. Meanwhile, yeah, I'd hope you'd have learned info from your interactions from the game so far because that's the whole point of playing.

This seems like a bit of a stretch. Am I missing how ballpoint is being cagey? In what ways are they trying to withhold information? And how does ballpoint seem like they're trying to look busy but not actually contribute, when ballpoint came right out the gate and has maintained discussion and contribution. (See: 30, 46, 55, 76, 104, more)

[Glitch]

Spoiler: quote

I don't like Kowah's push on Greeting.

Well you should. They literally slipped and called me town which is impossible for any town player to know on D1. Its not, however, impossible for scum to know on D1.

????

Do you not know that "X is town" is basically just a way to say "I have a strong TR on X"?

Yeah it wasn't said like that at all. Post 48 - "Both town and mafia can make contentless posts for no reason or for whatever reason really.

It is a common mistake for town

to assume that every post has intention."

That was in response to my 44. "I feel like everything is alignment indicative. Every post is made with intentions. Its not up to the poster to express this, but up to the player-base to interpret."

They did not just simply say "Kowah is town" they responded and said what I said "is a common mistake for town" that's not a town read. That's not a guess. That was an attempt to discredit my opinion on the game followed by a them blatantly mentioning what my alignment is. This does not come from a town POV.

Also, why don't you actually read the game before you come in here and discredit what I've been doing? What gives you the confidence to come in here, tell me you don't like my push on Greeting, and then openly prove you haven't even looked at it?

Setting aside the abrasiveness of that last paragraph... Why does the statement, "is a common mistake for town," mean someone knows the alignment of the person in question when they could just be speaking in abstraction and generalities. I don't think it's that cut and dry. They very well could have just been talking about general gameplay and not specifically that one player.

Spoiler: quote

Also, interesting phrasing there. "reads". Who uses reads? Scum just vote and make up a reasons. They dont use "reads" because they know who scum is.

This is terrible reasoning. You seriously underestimate scum. Man when I've played scum, I put on a huge show, theatrics and all. This is shallow and a bit naive.

Also odd to say, "scum don't make reads lists" then at the bottom of the same post say "I'll make a reads list." Seems somewhat lamist and that bugs me.

Spoiler: quote

I don't like Kowah's push on Greeting.

Well you should. They literally slipped and called me town which is impossible for any town player to know on D1. Its not, however, impossible for scum to know on D1.

????

Do you not know that "X is town" is basically just a way to say "I have a strong TR on X"?

Yeah it wasn't said like that at all. Post 48 - "Both town and mafia can make contentless posts for no reason or for whatever reason really.

It is a common mistake for town

to assume that every post has intention."

That was in response to my 44. "I feel like everything is alignment indicative. Every post is made with intentions. Its not up to the poster to express this, but up to the player-base to interpret."

They did not just simply say "Kowah is town" they responded and said what I said "is a common mistake for town" that's not a town read. That's not a guess. That was an attempt to discredit my opinion on the game followed by a them blatantly mentioning what my alignment is. This does not come from a town POV.

Also, why don't you actually read the game before you come in here and discredit what I've been doing? What gives you the confidence to come in here, tell me you don't like my push on Greeting, and then openly prove you haven't even looked at it?

I think you've completely misinterpreted what Greeting said from reading it over again. Greeting was making a general comment that town will sometimes read too much into things, especially early game, and applying that logic to a scenario where you are town. If that were some unlikely possibility I'd understand the suspicion but in any given game of mafia most of us are town, it's not a stretch for Greeting to operate on the assumption you are early doors if they don't have a scumread on you as such.

I think you're town for this line of thinking though, I don't feel it's a strong reason for suspecting Greeting and I suspect scum would be a bit more aware of that and perhaps back off.

Okay so I just finished writing my thoughts but I should have just scrolled down cause someone said it already. Although I wasn't taking much of a read from that post one way or the other, I appreciate you pointing out the last part there. Where scum would be a bit more aware and back off. That's a good thought line.

[Glitch]

Spoiler: quote

Feeling stronger and stronger about my curiouskarma read that they're scum. Really feels like flailing and a half baked and reactive scum read on Andate -- someone on the CKD wagon. CKD's posts really don't read like honest faith scumhunting but reactive and made up reasons to try and get wagons going on people. This is why I feel like Andate's town conditational on CKD being scum. I really feel like CKD has been pushing a bs mislim on Andate -- it doesn't read like bussing behavior at all because Andate was under no serious pressure earlier.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

bub noting that karma's explanation for voting kawaii was effectively bullshit is the most villager-y thing he's done all game, and karma's chances of being wolf were raised by a solid 17% because of that

seem legit, cant argue math.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

I don't have many

reads

, but this is just "I'm pushing a low poster cause I can" and it's "here's a push, but I can't push too much just cause there's nothing for the slot, but if I shade her enough, I can get votes there"

sorry, only enough room for 1 dog in this town.

is that what I said? Where did I remotely indicate I thought you were a low poster? Also compared to who? Are you a low poster? Did I indicate I thought you were a low poster OR did I note that you only tried to make friends and told a joke to get people to like you. Did I even vote you in that post? Also, interesting phrasing there. "reads". Who uses reads? Scum just vote and make up a reasons. They dont use "reads" because they know who scum is.

this reeks of someone trying to come up with a reason to join a wagon, but just makes stuff up. Also slight slip.

VOTE: Vote Andante

also still waiting on Bub to answer my question.

after that, will give a full scum list.

What question?

This seems confident for scum. Bub can be town for now.

Spoiler: quote

Hello all, sorry for being so inactive. I came down with a fever Friday night and felt like death all day yesterday. Much better today. Taking some time to dive deeper through the thread from the beginning. As I go I'll make a few posts so I don't end up with one big wall of text.

Page 1
Post 21 breaks right out of the gate with horrible logic. Bub light SR’s Kawaii or Hu Tao saying their “hello” posts were scummy for not contributing anything and being non-commital. Bub admits that it’s weak and it is. However he makes a somewhat more palatable point that based on intros alone, Kawaii and Hu Tao are not scum together because 18+19 as both scum would be unlikely. However IMO this is underestimating the power of scum theatre.

Page 2
Post 30 I appreciate ballpoint calling out the bad reasoning in 21.

33 strikes me as quite off. Curiouskarmadog quotes the terrible post 21, agrees with it, and then just jumps on to the other person that was framed as scummy for saying hello. Curious says that they dislike players getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. But Curious just jumps on to the reasoning in 21, which was bad reasoning to begin with, uses it to cast a vote without having to do anything, then turns and says they’re suspicious of Bub for FOSing. ???

In 38, when confronted on the weakness of the reasoning in 21, Bub immediately recants saying "yeah I know it's weak logic but I said it was in the original post." But I appreciate in 39 the dig to generate conversation.

In 41 Cephrir says "everything so far is NAI" and then STD FOS's Cephrir. Why?

46: I think ballpoint reasons in a way that I relate with a lot. I appreciate the way they think and examine things.

let me play the devil's advocate to your accusation: what you pointed out isn't unique to those two users, since savethedragons (i'll abbreivate to STD if that's ok) also just said "hi" without casting a vote, so wouldn't the same kind of logic apply to them?

and while people do vote for reasons during rvs its redundant because these are completely unaligned reasons that would be the same regardless of rand, so the votes are equally as non-commital and passive as the entrances, and the argument falls apart pretty quickly because of that

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

I'm with

STD

and

Cephrir

on this one.

And, as a matter of fact, one game when I was mafia, I tried pushing a similar point to move up the pace and fake a contribution.

This is weird. What has STD said that makes you "with them?" STD has contributed practically nothing. What are you talking about?

---

Be back with more in a bit.

i can't tell if this user is awkward or scum but woof

Lol why am I awkward??

Spoiler: quote

What question?

speaking of honest scum hunting. you went through my posts (I assumed you did, because you are scum hunting right?) and didnt see a question directed at you?

How do you know I am "flailing" if you didnt ready all my post. Im confused. (hint post 136)

So doing this unncessary nonsense is just so scummy. You asked so many random questions to so many random people. Many of them rhetorical, none of them important or insightful. If you actually cared about the answer you would reproduce it. But you dont't really care about the answer because you're just flailing trying to make it seem like you're doing good faith scumhunting when you are asking banal and shallow questions.

But I did find the question(s) I think you're referring to, they're in this post:

Bub,

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

So instead of him looking scummy to you, you vote me?

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

IN post 96 (that you did post), I am highlighting to common scum tactics there. Waiting for Andante to address.

also

unvote

And you can kind of see my point here. There's a bunch of questions here, none of them important or insightful, and it's not clear that all of the are addressed to me. But let's go through:

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

I think it depends on the context. If it's a question about your reads, for example, it would be scummy to dodge because you're trying to obfuscate the fact that your "reads" are all bs. But if it's just tangential questions meant to distract from scumhunting, it's not necessarily scummy to ignore the question.

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

Yes, I did do a read of Hsu's reaction. That's part of the reason why I started the wagon to begin with -- put Hsu in the kitchen and see if they could stand the heat. But even more importantly, try to get reads based on how various other people reacted to the wagon. My read is pure vibes, but the quick posting, kind of stream-of-consciousness questions seem geniune. Sure, it could come from scum, but based on their reaction to the (albiet superifical) pressure I'd say they're more likely town that I'd expect by random chance.

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

This is just sealioning. Again an example of what I've been talking about -- a complete refusal to do actual work but asking questions expecting others to do work. This seems like a scummy move because you get credit for seeming like you're scum hunting but others are actually doing the work.

If the question you are referring to is this:

Also btw FoSing is out of style these days

I dont think it was ever in style.

It begins

Hello everyone

So right off the bat I'm somewhat suspicious of both Kawaii and Hu Tao here. This is admitedly somewhat weak because the game just started, but both of these posts are really fluffy, non-commital and not progressing the game. Now, is this progressing the game more than a random vote? I dunno, but the reason why "random" votes are a thing is to create an initial paper trail of some sort...they aren't really random, so it immediately puts the scum in a bit of a pick of whether or not to bus. So far, these posts are just the most flimsy, "hey I'm here but not actually advancing the game" kind of posts.

I'm, going to go ahead and VOTE: Hu Tao


Mainly because it was another post right after a fluff post by Kawaii. Kind of reads as scum thinking "okay, need to say something now to not look suspicious" while being non-comittal.

Also going to put a

finger of suspicion on Kawaii

for similar sorts of reasons, but I think it's very unlikely that both Kawaii and Hu are scum. No way a scum comes in right after their buddy to make an almost identical post.

Im sold.

However, Im going to

vote Kawaii

I hate finger of suspicions...its like getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. If Kawaii flips scum, this looks sketchy.

consider this my

finger of suspicion (any hypocrisy) on Bub

Why vote him over me if you're "sold"?

LOL.....

what exactly do you think his point was there? break it down what YOU think the point is please.

Then yeah I did notice your question to Hsu as it was it was one of the reasons I think you are scum. Just asking "please explain what you think his point is" isn't actually accomplishing anything. It's just asking a totally toothless question that doesn't actually help to find scum.

I feel very good about my vote for CKD. I've made my case, but at this point I think a read of their iso kind of speaks for itself.

Still more confident casing that seems really dominant when scum would try to coast more early game. Bub can stay town for a bit.

--

I was confused on how to read Kowah but then 264-270 is a bunch of decent digging even though I don't agree with their points or logic.

Spoiler: quote

All I know is you did this whole *cracks knuckles* alright get ready for a fight routine and then nothing

well obviously the intention wasn't to disappear

Cephrir is consistent at least in SR'ing players for promising content but not following up on it. Maybe he just needs a little more patience but that's okay. I'm so null on Cephrir; I can't make left or right of him.

[Glitch]

Kowah and Cephrir on page 300 = sort of unlikely be scum together

Spoiler: quote

-1: Andante, KawaiiKame

how on earth do you have me and my sr as the exact same?

Can you elaborate on why this is not okay in your opinion?

[Glitch]

/fascinating/
Soft town pr claim on D1 is either a ballsy scum move or a legitimate claim. I'll let curious live today.

[Glitch]

Spoiler: curious wagon

Spoiler:

camae ayewa (moor mother)

vote count 1.5 !

curiouskarmadog (4):

Hu Tao, Bub Bidderskins, KittyTacky, Andante

Andante (4):

curiouskarmadog, GuyInFreezer, Flavor Leaf, Cephrir

Greeting (3):

NJAC, ballpointpen, Kowahbunga

Glitch (1):

Greeting

Hu Tao (1):

Save The Dragons

Flavor Leaf (1):

KawaiiKame

Cephrir (1):

Skygazer

not voting (2):

MalcolmTucker, Glitch

with 17 alive, it takes 9 to put someone in the machine. day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-04-02 13:48:07)

moderateur notes

• no prods administered! in fact everyone has posted in the last uh 25 hours

like, I'm not placing a vote on FL, ignoring that, and going "yeah karma dog scummy!!!" while not voting karma dog...
yet you have us the same??

I was saying if you right about Karma easy eliminating you Karma has a scum mindset, how is Karma voting you an easy elimination?

someone not posting? I hadn't done anything, how was I not an easy lim when karma started voting me?
I don't get what you are asking

In IS0 the push against you makes 0 sense, like you said nothing that would indicate you as scum, confused when reading, like what?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

So now we're actually getting a little action and traction. Hu Tao, Bub, Kitty, Andante, and Kawaii are on the curious wagon. I don't think a PR claim on D1 means that scum is guaranteed to be on the wagon. But I do think it gives sufficient reason for a bit of pressure there. Bub is in my town bucket which leaves me interested in ISO'ing Hu Tao, Kitty, Andante, and Kawaii. I'm gonna do that now.

[Glitch]

Hu Tao's ISO is full of a lot of questions and probing but a little lacking in actually making a point anywhere besides saying they're suspicious of curious for the simple reason that curious didn't follow up their suspicion with a vote. HT has maintained that as their primary tunnel so far and is still on that train.

KT's ISO has very little actually contributing and seems like he's just coasting without rocking the boat much.

Andante ISO opens with silliness and joking around. She gets wagoned and then is like, "tf? why?" but is pretty adament in defending herself. Gives me vibes of town getting scumread and being pissed and annoyed about it; scum wouldn't be so defensive imo. Andante can be town for now.

Kawaii ISO meta hunting Andante right off the bat, I appreciate that. The whole ISO gives me soft townie vibes and I'm good with looking elsewhere for now.

Andante, Kawaii, ballpoint, and Bub are in my townie basket.

Hu Tao and Kitty are in my scummy basket.

VOTE: Hu Tao
Let's move the wagon here and see what happens

[Glitch]

Can y'all elaborate on why wagon analysis is bad without a flip? Maybe I'm playing poorly but at least help me understand why.

[Glitch]

Because most of us don't even know if the wagon was on town or scum yet

Yes. But when we're all arguing over weak wagons and flimsy cases, then someone makes a claim that I find reasonably acceptable to believe at this stage at the game, why shouldn't that warrant at least examining the wagon on the PR-claiming player?

[Glitch]

Can y'all elaborate on why wagon analysis is bad without a flip? Maybe I'm playing poorly but at least help me understand why.

cause it all relies on X being town/scum and if 1 person's alignment is the basis for all your reads, it's kinda just a waste of time tbh (I have learned from experience lol)

I mean I'm aware of the fact that I could be wrong and the PR claim doesn't mean they're town. But in a scenario with equally waffling cases in other directions it seems reasonable to me to believe the claim at this stage of the game; besides, if it's false, there's a LOT of game ahead where they're going to have to maintain this narrative they've boxed themselves into right off the bat, and as time and the game goes on, it'll be easier to catch them if they're scum because they're locked themselves into such a tight box moving forward.

So I get the point about confbias. I'm not saying that curious is conftown. I think that at this stage of the game there's no reason not to believe the claim, but that with more gameplay and actions happening, there'll be plenty of opportunity for that to either solidify and shore up, or crumble and fall apart.

[Glitch]

if I do make it to the night and we have a doc, please dont waste a protection on me.

Thoughts on this?
This is either: town pr soft claimed then tries to make it sound like it's nbd so they don't get mafia killed in the night
Or scum theatre

I lean town, why would scum claim D1 with a wagon that's uncertain to last to end of day?

[Glitch]

Spoiler: 442

...Does anyone townread Skygazer?

9:34pm

i guess i could go skygazer it feels a little bit like throwing up our hands and taking the slightly >rand option over really trying but that's not the worst thing ever

10:05pm

is the person with no posts ever actually scum these days?

10:09pm

been unexpectedly busy, will be able to make more of an effort soon but i gotta go pass out now

10:13pm

I'm not one to believe activity is alignment indicative. However, the timing of this is to me. A 40 minute block of suspicion gets their attention immediately. Like the immediate scenario that ran through my head was:

GIF posts suspicion of Sky, no worry yet...
Ceph posts they kind of want to look that way too... FOUR minutes and suddenly the busy bee finds a break in their schedule.

It's a conspiracy at best, because I have no way to prove it. But that's how it looks to me. Sky was already on my radar for 364 - so this may just be me wanting it to be true. I just think it looks suspicious to me.

This is such a stretch and I think should just be disregarded tbh

[Glitch]

Like I appreciate you trying but people being online at the same time meaning they're scum together is so flimsy.

Curious is going VLA. Can we disband the wagon and start a new one to prompt some more interesting events? If the general consensus at the end of the day is "let's all get back on curious and vote them off d1" then that can happen but riding that wagon for the rest of the day isn't productive.

Bub vote Hu Tao with me. Time to stir a new pot.

[Glitch]

@Glitch - What claim wouldn’t be reasonably acceptable to you?

I imagine a D1 hard claim doctor would be a horrible idea for town to put forward and a massive blunder for scum after that person doesn't get killed the immediate night after