Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win

[Yosarian2]

Confirmed

[Yosarian2]

so who´s up for a good old fashioned mafiassk bandwagon?

vote: ssk

Eh, I'll wait and see if he lurks this game. If he does, then we can lynch him.

[Yosarian2]

but lurking takes such a long time

Not the way I define it.

:starts stopwatch:

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Lowell

[Yosarian2]

By the way; we just had a discussion on MD about how people often don't read the rules, specifically when talking about roleclaiming, so I should point out this game has a rather unusual rule.

PM Quoting: You may quote PMs.

[Yosarian2]

Bandwagoning is bad

Is it?

[Yosarian2]

Why?

[Yosarian2]

That's really not true; especally in a large game like this, a small early bandwagon is unlikely to go to a lynch, it gives the town something to talk about, and gets the game going. Frankly, the chances of a random early speedlynch without the guy even getting a chance to claim in a game like this are close enough to zero so as to not even be worth worrying about.

[Yosarian2]

confirm vote:Lowell

Come on, guys, this is where the good wagon is.

...

I mean, seriously, MafiaSSK is posting at the moment. Let's go after the other habitual lurker now, wagon him until he starts posting.

[Yosarian2]

I am not wagoning for the sake of wagoning; I am attacking your views on wagoning.

I agree that his views on wagoning are wrong. Do you think it's a scummy mistake for him to make?

[Yosarian2]

confirm vote:Lowell

Have you lost your mind?

I don't think so. Why, have you found one?

[Yosarian2]

Unvote

Vote: SC

The "misuderstanding" looks like it was done on purpose.

Uh...what? That dosn't really make sense.

Unvote:Lowell

Vote:Empking's Alt

[Yosarian2]

Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason.

I'm saying it dosn't make any sense in this context.

SC: I think the stratagy suggested by mafiaSSK is anti-town and scummy, vote ssk

Emp: You must be scum pretending to misunderstand ssk's comment!

Uh...what? SSK's comment was wrong stratigically, and arguably anti-town; I don't really think it's scummy, but Emp's attack on SC dosn't make any sense here. I know SC made some comment about how perhaps he misunderstood SSK or something, but I really don't think he did.

[Yosarian2]

confirm vote:Lowell

Have you lost your mind?

I don't think so. Why, have you found one?

Yes, it was acting irrationally, so I traced it back to you.

Everything I've done so far has been rational. Not sane, necessarally, but rational.

Random question; are you one of dripping goofball's alts?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason.

I'm saying it dosn't make any sense in this context.

SC: I think the stratagy suggested by mafiaSSK is anti-town and scummy, vote ssk

Emp: You must be scum pretending to misunderstand ssk's comment!

Uh...what? SSK's comment was wrong stratigically, and arguably anti-town; I don't really think it's scummy, but Emp's attack on SC dosn't make any sense here. I know SC made some comment about how perhaps he misunderstood SSK or something, but I really don't think he did.

So you think SC was lying about misunderstanding SSK? Well me too. That's why I'm voting him.

...

What?

No, really, what? I just said that I thought SC was, in fact, entierly correct in his understanding of SSK, and that his response to it was fairly rational. SC did say he may have misunderstood him, but it dosn't even make sense to think that might be a lie.

[Yosarian2]

Also, through King's quote of Yosarian, and Coug's continued lack of ability to understand anything that's going on, I finally caught on to the flaw in that quote. So, Yos & Coug: King was pointing out that Yos's series of paraphrases are incorrect. A better summary would have been:

SSK: I'm going to vote for Litral because he's admitted to wagoning. Wagoning is bad.

Coug: Sometimes a wagon is good, unless it's for no reason. Vote SSK.

SSK: I think Litral was wagoning for no reason.

Coug: I AM NOT WAGONING FOR NO REASON! I'M ATTACKING YOU FOR YOUR VIEWS ON WAGONING!

That last statement is almost a direct quote. It is Coug's original misunderstanding, and it's unbelievablity is the reason for both Mine & King's votes. That's why King said that if Yos doesn't believe it was an actual misunderstanding, he should actually agree with us, as that's what lead to the votes.

Ok, that makes a little more sense.

If that is what they both were trying to say, then suppose I misunderstood it as well. Especally since line #3 of your post wasn't at all what I read MafiaSSK's post as; he quoted SC's post, and said

I thought this wagoning for the sake of wagoning...

So I assumed that was directed at SC's vote on him. Which one did you mean, SSK?

Also, I really wish you wouldn't answer a question I direct at someone else. EmpKing's vote looked (and, frankly, still looks) kind of scummy to me, and his explinations for it weren't making any sense to me, so I voted him and asked for a reason.

[Yosarian2]

So you think that SC understood SSK.
AND
You think SC was not lying when he said he misunderstood?

As far as I can see, this is the only play SC mentioned the word "misunderstood".

If I'm unaware of just plain wagoning and bandwagoning being distinct, then by all means bring that up and straighten that out for me, but misunderstandings are not valid reasons for a vote, whether or not I'm guilty of one.

Nowhere did he do what you're claiming he did, which is "claim to misunderstand/pretend to misunderstand" something SSK said as a defense, or whatever. So, no, he can't be lying about that, *SINCE HE NEVER EVEN SAID IT AT ALL*.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, I see SC already beat me to that point. Ok then.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Do you think SC misunderstood?

Do I think he misunderstood what? I get the feeling that everyone in this conversation is talking about something different because we're all being so vauge.

But none of that's relevent; the key point is, you voted SC because you claimed that he lied, and it looks to me like he didn't even say what you're accusing him of lying about. It really looks to me that you were misrepresenting what SC said, and probably intentionally so, which is why I'm voting for you.

[Yosarian2]

... please, this is the second time in this game someone has depicted me as some sort of jester.

Others have already pointed out, but saying something like this is just SOO scummy, especally when no one "depicted you as some sort of jester".

Uh, if I were scum and that was a gambit, then most likely either you or GnKoichi is my scumbuddy.

And this line is worse...

Either that, or you do not understand my argument at all, so I'll repeat it in clearer terms. I'm saying that his post was scummy, but I have no idea whether the opinion contained inside the post is scummy. The opinion and the post itself are two different things. Why? Because his post, besides his opinion, also contains other information: an important one is the situation under which it was made. The situation is that two people voted him for lurking and he immediately comes out with an opinion that should have been expressed earlier if he was pro-town. This is the sort of thing scum more often do than town, which is why I kept the vote on him.

..what?

Look, he was lurking, so you were voting for him. That's fine, that makes sense; lurker hunting is an inherently pro-town thing to do in basically any situation.

Then, though, he posts an actual opinion, a scumtell you say makes sense...and you keep voting him because...he didn't say so earlier? Huh? That's the part that confused everyone; usually, if you vote a lurker, it's partly because you are trying to pressure him to post content. When he did post content, you didn't seem to have any problem with the content he posted at the time, but then continued to attack him, and that's what I don't get.

If you vote someone for lurking, either they're going to keep lurking, or they'll post some content. Do you really want to punish someone for posting content in that situation?

The whole thing looks...off. Not a "Scum gambit", exactally, like you claimed in your defense. Looks more a scum mistake, the kind where a scum wants to keep his vote on a bandwagon, so he creates a weak excuse for it that dosn't seem consistat with other things he's said. And your defense has been flail-y, has accused people attacking you with "being your scumbuddies", and made a really bizzare jester comment that dosn't make any sense.

Vote:Litral

for now.

i agree that lurkerhunting is v scummy

Lurkinghunting is pro-town. It's the rest of his behavior that's scummy.

[Yosarian2]

I think jester is a very high likelihood for Litral, which is why I'm not voting him. His remarks read more to me of jester than blundering scum.

Jesters are very, very rare. And it's not like lynching a jester is bad for the town anyway. Frankly, it's bizzare and kind of scummy to assume someone is a jester just becasue they look scummy.

[Yosarian2]

yos, we obviously disagree on a point of game theory. i think lurkerhunting is as good as lurking in plain sight, it allows one to remain active but take part in absolutely zero real scumhunting and interact negiligibly with anyone who will actually respond.

Eh; lurkerhunting is a neccessary thing for the town to do, though. If the town lets lurkers get away with lurking, then the town usually loses in endgame to a lurkerscum. I can find about a hundred examples of that...

[Yosarian2]

This is my first non-newbie game, so I didn't know jesters are uncommon. The game description said there may be one. I figure pointing it out might be helpful, because if we lynch a jester he wins.

Generally, if there is a jester in a large game, if you lynch him it dosn't hurt the town's chances of winning. The jester either wins or loses, but it has no effect on anyone else. So if there's a jester in the game, lynching him day 1 isn't really a bad thing anyway; it's not as good as lynching a scum, but much better then lynching town.

It was not very specific so I apologize. It was jestery in my opinion only because it was sloppy for scum play.

What makes you think scum are especally unlikely to be sloppy?

[Yosarian2]

rofl, which part of my vote do you suspect? The initial vote for Numberfourteen, or the latter insistence that it should stay? Because only the first part is voting someone for merely lurking - the second part is voting someone for both lurking and only responding to pressure.

...how is that worse then, say, lurking and not responding to pressure? Everyone should respond to pressure, that's the whole point OF pressure; if someone ignores pressure, I usually take that to mean they're scum hoping that something else will happen and people will forget about them.

[Yosarian2]

As I pointed out earlier, Yosarian, who I am officially outing as a member of the group (along with myself), who is generally a shy voter, started out by voting fellow mason group member Lowell, after which I accused him of not reading his PM, something he has failed to address.

Jesus...why the hell would you out me like that? Or yourself?

And I'm a "shy voter"? Since when? I'm very often a very agressive voter, especally on day 1.

You were right, when you asked me earlier if I had "not read my PM carefully". When I saw the PM, I glanced at it, said..."wait...what the hell...I'm in another large game? I never signed up for that." Then I went back, looked at the queau, and said "Oh...I guess I did." And somehow I never actually read the whole role PM in the process, until you pointed it out to me.

Not that my vote on Llowell put him in any actual risk, anyway. And, yeah, I do agree that it's likely there's a scum in our mason group.

Still...ugh. Why the hell would you claim, AND claim your partner at the same time? It was bad enough, and anti-town enough, when Lowell claimed just on his own; you just compounded the error severely.

If you out any more members of the group, then mason buddy or not, I am going to vote for you and keep my vote on you until you are dead. You DO NOT GIVE AWAY ROLES ON DAY ONE FOR NO REASON!

[Yosarian2]

If you out any more members of the group, then mason buddy or not, I am going to vote for you and keep my vote on you until you are dead. You DO NOT GIVE AWAY ROLES ON DAY ONE FOR NO REASON!

And why is that, scum?

Um...why is it bad to claim, and worse, to reveal the roles of other people, on day 1? Are you serious?

I mean, granted, if there is a scum mason, then it dosn't matter since he'll tell the scum anyway. Still, it's just bloody stupid, especally since there was absolutly no reason for it. Lowell's claim was almost as bad, especally since, with that leading comment you made before, it would make it pretty damn obvious to the scum anyway.

[Yosarian2]

and my town read on yosarian goes up in smoke

Huh? So, you go from thinking I'm town to thinking I'm scum, because I'm really annoyed one of my mason partners outed me as a mason, in a situation where it's pretty obvious there was absolutly no good reason to do so?

[Yosarian2]

Not that my vote on Llowell put him in any actual risk, anyway. And, yeah, I do agree that it's likely there's a scum in our mason group.

here's the part where you very quickly start sounding like a hypocrite. you're all like "i didn't even know he was a mason buddy" but at the same time you're making shitty excuses for your vote ("doesn't put him in any actual risk") AND agreeing with the basic premise which was the reason for penguins to out you in the first place, namely that there's probably scum in your group, and using that to try and retroactively bolster a vote which you just admitted you placed without realizing lowell was even your mason buddy. ummm... what?

I didn't know he was a mason buddy. She didn't know that, though, so I don't blame her for that. I do blame her for outing me as a mason for no good reason, even though my vote didn't put Lowell at any risk at all.

Still...ugh. Why the hell would you claim, AND claim your partner at the same time? It was bad enough, and anti-town enough, when Lowell claimed just on his own; you just compounded the error severely.

If you out any more members of the group, then mason buddy or not, I am going to vote for you and keep my vote on you until you are dead. You DO NOT GIVE AWAY ROLES ON DAY ONE FOR NO REASON!

and now the exasperation sounds forced, and is certainly way overboard. we got the idea that you're unhappy about this at the start of your post. and i really don't take you for the kind of emotional player who would even make the threat of keeping their vote on someone until they're dead based on something which makes you angry and is, in your opinion at least, anti-town at best, but certainly not certifiably scummy.

It's not "way overboard", and there is absolutly nothing "emotional" about my statement that if she outs any more mason partners that we will have to lynch her, and that I will vote for her until she is dead. At the point I made the post, my #1 priority was to stop her insanity before she outed the rest of the mason group for absolutly no bloody reason, and to make it absoltuly, 100% crystal clear that that will absoluty not be tolerated. I'm sorry if you think it was a little over the top, but I think it was necessary I made myself absolutly clear here before she did any more damage.

It's not like I can make her un-reveal what she already reveals, and I don't get how you think it makes me scummy that I don't want her to reveal the REST of our mason group.

And, considering that I threatened her, not to protect myself, but to protect the rest of my mason group from her insanity, this last comment of yours makes no sense at all:

my opinion: yos is either scum mason or anti-town 3rd party mason, and he's very, very upset that his cushy position suddenly got shot to hell over what he percieves to have been poor play on the part of lowell and penguins.

Especally since you just admitted that I would be very, very upset about her outing both herself and me as masons no matter what else was happening. There's clearly no pro-town reason for her to do so, and that makes me uncomfortable with how both she and Lowell apparently wanted to get themselves confirmed as masons early on day 1; that makes me wonder abuout both of them.

[Yosarian2]

If you're not scum, you're a distraction of the highest order, and the town will be better off without you either way.

this sentence is a

huge, glaring scumtell

Yeah you're right but I can vouch for Koichi's relative trustworthiness.

So you're a mason partner with him?

Fos:Vino

Stop fishing, scum. Didn't we just make it clear that outing masons is bad?

[Yosarian2]

I actually don't care who the masons are.

You just spent a whole post trying to find out who the masons are, speculating, asking people, ect. Now you're going to pretend you don't care?

Like I said it doesn't matter to me, half of them are scum anyways

Um...what? Do you know something I don't?

[Yosarian2]

I actually don't care who the masons are.

You just spent a whole post trying to find out who the masons are, speculating, asking people, ect. Now you're going to pretend you don't care?

Something is quite scummy about this mason group, so the revelation that it exists means nothing to me.

Like I said it doesn't matter to me, half of them are scum anyways

Um...what? Do you know something I don't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Obviously only one or two, but it means that about the same ratio of general players to scum exists for mason players to scum

Again, I don't have any information that implies that any of the masons are scum. It certanly is possible, perhaps even likely, but it sounds like you know more then I do. Which is only possible if you are also scum.

so knowing which of the masons are scum is useless until the scum is routed and we can confirm townie masons.

Ummm...what? That dosn't make any sense at all to me. What are you talking about? How can we "confirm townie masosn", and why are you talking like you know for a fact that some masons are scum?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, perhaps I'm making too many assumptions here. Like I said before, this is my first non-newbie game. If one of the masons is a scum, then knowing that people are masons does not make them confirmed townies.

Well, yes, obviously. I'm still wondering why you seem to be assuming that one of the masons is scum, though.

Therefore we have to route the scum before we can establish which of the masons are townie masons. Also we have to know how many scum masons exist in the game, which hopefully is only 1, because >1 would be quite complicated to find.

Which is also an odd part of your post; if there are scum masons, why would you assume there is only 1? Or, how would we find out how many there are, or whatever?

[Yosarian2]

Huh? So, you go from thinking I'm town to thinking I'm scum, because I'm really annoyed one of my mason partners outed me as a mason, in a situation where it's pretty obvious there was absolutly no good reason to do so?

Given that the scum concentration in the mason group may be higher than the general population, outing masons might be a very effective way to hunt scum.

Do you really think that's likely?

If there are scum masons, then it probably dosn't matter, like I said. If there aren't, then the scum need to find out who the masons are in order to win.

I suspect we'll have a better idea tommorow, based on what happens tonight, now that several masons have been outed.

[Yosarian2]

It's not "way overboard", and there is absolutly nothing "emotional" about my statement that if she outs any more mason partners that we will have to lynch her, and that I will vote for her until she is dead.

Do that, scumbag, and the more dead town masons litter the morgue, the higher the chances that the scum masons will be weeded out.

Oh, great, dripping goofball is about to do her famous "Yos is scum tunnelvision" thing again. Sigh.

Did you actually read what I wrote there, or do you just look at everyone one of my posts and think it says

I am scum I am scum I am scum

?

Because I think that, if you read what I actually said, it should be pretty obvious that I'm not actually trying to lynch you here, I'm just trying to stop you from hurting the town any more then you already have.

[Yosarian2]

One of the masons said it was a large group, so he was guessing that at least one of them must be scum. (Lowell? When he claimed? Can't be bothered to dig up the post.) Naturally all of this logic is reliant upon that, and since he is the resident expert I am taking it as the most likely scenario. Since he found it suitable to reveal his masonry, he must be relatively positive that there is a scum in their midst, so I find it reasonable to assume that he is correct.

Um...Lowell is the resident expert? Of what?

There is a difference between other people's posts, that have said that there's a pretty good chance there is a scum, and your posts, which seemed to imply you already knew there was a scum mason.

Which is also an odd part of your post; if there are scum masons, why would you assume there is only 1? Or, how would we find out how many there are, or whatever?

I am not assuming such. I don't know where you got that idea. I specifically stated earlier that there may be many. If there is one it is much easier to purge them. If there is many I think town may as well ignore the fact that there are masons. The problem, as you say, is not finding the scum masons, but establishing how many scum masons exist.

Then what were you talking about when you started talking about confirming people as townie masons?

[Yosarian2]

a) There is a high likelihood of scum masons.
b) Until we know which mason is scum, we can't confirm masons as townies.
c) Until we know how many scum masons exist, we can't know whether we've cleared out all scum masons.

Until these conditions are satisfied we can not confirm masons as townies.

The point I was making was that there is absolutly no way we could ever figure out C, so there will never be a point where we can "clear" people of being scum.

I have a common problem playing mafia games were as a townie I make logical conclusions using publicly available knowledge, and present my findings to the town, who accuse me of being scum because I have apparently confidential knowledge. This is what is happening now. If you follow my logic, however, you will see that nothing I am saying can not be extrapolated from publicly available information. I'm sorry for not making myself more clear.

1. There is a difference between "Well, if X, then Y" and saying:

Like I said it doesn't matter to me, half of them are scum anyways, and the scum already know or will know shortly who they are, so town might as well know too

That statement (especally the "half of them are scum" part, which seems to be based on absolutly nothing) seems to imply you have knowlege that no pro-town people have. One of the best ways to catch scum is that they know things town can't know.

You later claimed that that was "sarcasm", but it pretty clearly wasn't.

2. You were trying way too damn hard to find out who the masons were, RIGHT AFTER I expressed that I thought it'd be best for them to NOT be known

So the masons are Lowell, Serengeti, Yosarian2, ________ and GnKoichi? Is this the reason you voted Honcho for vague reasons? The fifth is roflcopter perhaps, for his earlier vindications of you two? Hmmmmm?

And then you denied doing it when I called you on it.

I actually don't care who the masons are.

Which is clearly a lie, based on your previous post.

Look...we don't know if there are scum masons or not. If there aren't any scum masons, then the scum need to find out who the masons are, so your fishing there is scummy. Even if there are, then that dosn't mean that all scum factions (like a SK, for example) will know who the masons are; and with a mason group this large, revealing the names of all the masons also makes it a lot easier for someone like a SK to find the real power roles, just by process of elimination. That's why I had to make DGB stop revealing stuff, and that's why your fishing is super-scummy.

vote:Veno

[Yosarian2]

Also, rotf, it'd help me figure out where you are coming from if, to figure out if your attack on me was honest scumhunting or something else, if you would read and respond to my post in 262 where I responded to your attack. Thanks.

[Yosarian2]

Fine. All of this is beside the point. My purpose in #261 was to ask Serengeti questions, not to extrapolate on masonry.

It was to ask her questions, primarally questions about who her mason buddies were.

The purpose of pointing out mason connections was to demonstrate my point: she was acting sketchy. Why was she defending GnKoichi and attacking Honcho?

Probably because she thought one was looking pro-town and the other was looking scummy? As you yourself have pointed out, masonry is probably irrelvent in that.

Saying "half of the masons" was a euphemism - I was exaggerating for the purpose of sarcasm. Believe what you like, but if you want to vote me, please spell my nick properly.

Ok. I forgot to unvote your scumbuddy Litral anyway.

Unvote

Vote:Vino

[Yosarian2]

sorry yos forgot to respond to this because i was overwhelmed by the obvscummery of vino

I didn't know he was a mason buddy. She didn't know that, though, so I don't blame her for that. I do blame her for outing me as a mason for no good reason, even though my vote didn't put Lowell at any risk at all.

you're just reiterating what i already mentioned was a shitty excuse here.

You're not reading what I said.

I'm not using that as a defense for my lowell vote; I don't really think my lowell vote needs a defense, in any case. I wasjust questioning why she felt the need to claim mason in response to that, considering how little risk there was in my lowell vote anyway. I found it especally odd since she had already figured out by this point that I had misread my role PM when I first got it.

It's not "way overboard", and there is absolutly nothing "emotional" about my statement that if she outs any more mason partners that we will have to lynch her, and that I will vote for her until she is dead. At the point I made the post, my #1 priority was to stop her insanity before she outed the rest of the mason group for absolutly no bloody reason, and to make it absoltuly, 100% crystal clear that that will absoluty not be tolerated. I'm sorry if you think it was a little over the top, but I think it was necessary I made myself absolutly clear here before she did any more damage.

it is though, because its like you're trying to project enough anger through your post to vote penguins without having to worry about repercussions because "look how freaking anti town she was guys srsly!"

(shakes head) Again, you're not reading what I said.

I didn't vote penguins, and wasn't planning on doing so. I projected enough anger so she would know I was serious, which I was, and that if she continued to do what she was doing and out more people's roles, that there would be consequences. My only goal there was to put out the fire and prevent any more damage, not to start to put together a case on Penguins. Frankly, now, I tend to think she's probably town, assuming she is a Dripping Goofball alt which I think she is. Dripping Goofball has a long habit of fixating on me like this and deciding I was scum for some weak reason and then obsessivly repeating it over and over again no matter what I said, and every time she's done that in the past we've both been town.

It's not like I can make her un-reveal what she already reveals, and I don't get how you think it makes me scummy that I don't want her to reveal the REST of our mason group.

And, considering that I threatened her, not to protect myself, but to protect the rest of my mason group from her insanity, this last comment of yours makes no sense at all:

my opinion: yos is either scum mason or anti-town 3rd party mason, and he's very, very upset that his cushy position suddenly got shot to hell over what he percieves to have been poor play on the part of lowell and penguins.

Especally since you just admitted that I would be very, very upset about her outing both herself and me as masons no matter what else was happening. There's clearly no pro-town reason for her to do so, and that makes me uncomfortable with how both she and Lowell apparently wanted to get themselves confirmed as masons early on day 1; that makes me wonder abuout both of them.

this part really slays me. you're appealing to emotion/the rest of your mason group to take your side against penguins because "seriously guys i'm just trying to protect you!" you seem to think its cut and dry that there could be no protown reason to out masons at this stage, but i disagree with you and agree with penguins, and she laid out in a pretty starkly mathematical manner how it was a good idea on her part.

Um...appealing to emotion? Do you really doubt that I was just trying to prevent Penguins from outing more masons at that point, or do you think that I had some anti-town motive for doing that? What possible anti-town motive could I have for that?

If you really think there's something to be gained by outing a bunch of masons right now, then come right out and argue that point, and we'll discuss it. I think the costs outweigh the benifits, I think that's pretty obvious, and I will be extremly angry if Penguins, or any other masons, suddenly come out and claim/claim for each other like she just did, but there's a huge difference between "arguing that claims are a good idea, and going ahead if there's agreement" and "just starting to reveal people's roles for no reason on your own".

I mean, if someone says "Let's mass claim; I'll start, I'm a rolecop, and IS is the doc"; the absolutly first thing you do is to yell at him, and make absolutly sure that he stopps talking and that everyone else knows that a massclaim is a BAD idea and that it HAS to stop NOW. AFTER you've done that, after you've put the fire out, THEN you worry about if the person doing the claiming was scum or not, and THEN you can have a dicussion about if a massclaim is a good idea or not, but before any of that the first thing you absolutly have to do is to prevent any more claims, and that's all I did. Don't you understand that?

[Yosarian2]

Do you think that the scum doesn't already know? I think the town should know what the scum already knows. Level playing field.

Sure, if the scum already know. Vino was fishing so hard, though, I'm guessing that at least his scum group dosn't know who the masons are.

[Yosarian2]

OK I think there are two scum masons, Yosarian and Numberfourteen.

...

Am I talking to a bloody wall here?

[Yosarian2]

Claiming there are multiple scum masons is a great way to make your chances seem greater.

So...you think she would do that as scum...why?

Either way it is pretty scummy to vouch for killing masons.

Unless they're scum, duh.

This guy just keeps getting scummier...

[Yosarian2]

Is there anything important to read since the start of page 12 besides Penguins of the Serengeti, Vino, and Yosarian2 clawing at each other? You guys posted a lot since I last checked, and I can't comprehend what exactly is going on right now.

Vino is obv scum.

Penguins is probably town, she thinks I'm scum, she's wrong, she probably dosn't even read my posts at this point because that's what she seems to do when she decides I'm scum, and it's incredibly frustrating, especally since she's ignoring all common sense at this point and continuing to out more masons. Still, based on her meta, she's probably town; incredibly frustrating town, but town.

[Yosarian2]

What confuses me is that the initial push against Vino was based on him having some information re: scum/mason overlap that the town did not, but he is obviously not a mason.

You know who else would have info? A scum who's buddy was a mason.

Anyway, Vino's been obv scum ever since his defense of his scum buddy Literl by calling him a "jester'. His last posts have only made that worse.

It also confuses me that Yos apparently backpedaled on his ultimatum re: penguins despite penguins having gone on to out the whole group.

Uh, she hasn't outed the whole group.

When I said that, I meant it; the problem though is that now I'm like 95% sure she's town, which is incredibly frustrating, but I'm not going to vote her now, so it means that there's basically nothing I can do.

Do you really have a problem with me not voting Penguins now that I think she's probably town?

I've been trying and trying to rewrite that in a way that is not so convoluted, so for the sake of brevity: I think yosarian not even commenting on penguins outing the rest of the masons is a huge backpedal, which to me says there was truth to what roflcopter called him on.

Clearly not reading the game, if you think I didn't comment on her outing another mason. And again, I don't know what makes you think that's the "whole group".

unvote

vote: yosarian2

So, I'm guessing you're vino's third scumbuddy, right?

[Yosarian2]

She's not vouching for killing scum masons. She's vouching for killing

any

mason, because she says we're better off that way. Look:

Do that, scumbag, and the more dead town masons litter the morgue, the higher the chances that the scum masons will be weeded out.

She wants to kill

all masons

.

No, that's clearly not what she said.

She, with her obsessive "yos is scum" fixation, has decided I am scum, and decided to try to point out that if I was scum I wouldn't want other masons to die since the more masons are dead the easier it is to find the scum masons. You've got to read it in context. She was never suggesting we start indescriminatly killing masons, especally since she's voting you, a non-mason. Plus, she IS a mason; if she was scum, why the heck WOULD she want the town to start indescriminatly killing masons?

Your case against her just dosn't fit; basically, none of her actions would make any sense for her to do as scum,

[Yosarian2]

Oh and BTW clever players know that I've outed ALL the masons.

Btw, good job with that. Assuming this game is balanced at all, you'd better hope there's a scum mason, or else you've probably just cost the town the game.

[Yosarian2]

But you voted him for fishing for masons, this is why I read it as hopping on the e-z lynch more than legitimate scumhunting. The whole time your case had one foot in "vino knows something" and another foot in "vino's fishing" until the votes rolled.

Well, yes. What, you expect me to be consistant? Consistancy is a scumtell.

Or, to put it another way, in some of Vino's posts, he looked scummy because it looked like he knew something only scum could know. In others of his posts, it looked like he was trying to find something out that only scum should want to know. Obviously he wasn't doing both, but the way scumtells work is that if it looks like someone might have been doing something it increases the odds of them being scum. He had so many different scumtells, of so many different flavors, those being only two of them, that I think the odds of him being scum are higher then anyone else in the game that he's the right lynch at the moment.

[quote[
This was after penguins had posted that she was "certain" there was at least one scum mason, and posted number crunches based on that certainty. You didn't call this out as scummy, and I think it's because roflcopter scared you. [/quote]

No, it's because she's dripping goofball. She's always certain of half a dozen things. Sometimes, some of them are even right.

So what convinced you penguins was so townie?

Metagaming, mostly. Want me to link you to some games where she acted exactally like this as town?

[Yosarian2]

So, Orange, do you have an opinion about anything else that's happened this game? What do you think about Vino, for example?

[Yosarian2]

I kinda outed myself and Yos early on, when I told Yos he should read his bloody PM more carefully. And he didn't say, as a mason should "oops I didn't mean to vote (insert name of mason buddy he voted for) at all, I was completely drunk and smoking crack and hallucinating heavily." He just kept on as if nothing had happened.

Well, duh, of course I didn't respond to that, because I was trying to avoid outing us as masons. I figured you would get the message, since I generally always respond to stuff people say, and that you'd realize I was intentioanlly not responding to THAT post because I didn't want to draw attention to it. Or, you know, that you might show some common sense and ask again at night, instead of giving away the roles of more then a quarter of the people in teh game for absolutly no reason. Foolish me.

Now I'm sure Yos will respond to this with a lengthy and tiresome explanation

Neah. Why would I bother responding to you at length? It's not like you ever read anything I say anyway once you decide I'm scum. This is like the 6th time you've done this, and you've never been swayed by logic before, even though you've been wrong every single time before; why should I bother?

[Yosarian2]

PoS might have been misguided to out everyone (I'm still not sure) but I don't think her motives are bad. If there's a mason-wagon to be had, I think it should be on yos or numberfourteen.

Numberfourteen is a reasonable choice, but if there is a scum mason, my best bet is that it's you, lowell. At least PoS had some kind of reason to out me (although she certanly didn't have a reason to out everyone else. ) You had absolutly no reason to claim. None. Zero. Zilch. And the best guess I have is that you wanted to get confirmed as mason right away, and the only reason I can think of that you'd want to do that is if you were scum and wanted to make sure you didn't get cop investigated or anything before you had a chance to claim mason.

[Yosarian2]

Lowell's action would not be wise if he were a scum mason.

Interesting. How so?

[Yosarian2]

more convinced than ever that yos is scum

Based on what? Especally considering how your entire attack on me was apparently based on you either completly not reading or totally misrepresenting everything I said, and then the way you completly ignored my response when I pointed that out, I'm not really that concerned with what you think right now.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: *should have read "with what you think about me right now".

[Yosarian2]

Eh...I don't buy it. Why would a town mason claim when he did? There was absolutly no reason for it at all.

One corollary is that a scum mason would be the one out faking the most outrage at the masons being outed. To appear even more of a mason than the real masons, and get extra 'mason cred.'

Um...are you actually accusing me of "faking outrage"? Now, you have to know that's garbage, don't you? You've played enough games with me to know how much I, as pro-town, absolutly hate and despise bad, unneeded claims, especally on day 1 and especally when the person was in no danger of being lynched and the claim dosn't give the town any useful information, and you should know that the reason I hate unneeded claims is that they're almost always very bad for the town.

I mean, really; are you really going to claim you didn't know what my reaction would be when you claimed?

[Yosarian2]

more convinced than ever that yos is scum

Based on what? Especally considering how your entire attack on me was apparently based on you either completly not reading or totally misrepresenting everything I said, and then the way you completly ignored my response when I pointed that out, I'm not really that concerned with what you think right now.

thank you for letting me know how much i'm getting to you

carry on

Yeah, you're getting to me. It always drives me up a bloody wall when someone apparently refuses to read my posts, attacks me for acting in a pro-town way, and when I explain myself they ignore me and just keep repeating that I'm scum. It's especally frustrating since both you and dripping goofball are doing it, AND since you both agree with me on both of my main suspects which makes me think that there's a high chance you're town, especally since you were making perfect sense up until the point Penguins claimed unneccessarally and I responded in the most pro-town way I know how to.

It really seems like you totally ignored what I said to Penguins, and based your response entirely on the TONE of my post, which was something I needed to do in order to get my point across, instead of what I actually SAID during my post. Then when I pointed that out, you completly ignored me. I just got lynched as town once, yesterday, in an ongoing game, for the first time in like a year, and it's driving me nuts that it seems like that could happen again, just because people who otherwise seem pro-town seem to totally not be understanding anything I'm saying, or even trying to do so.

So, yeah, you're gettting to me. Good job. Now, how about actually reading my posts and thinking about what I said, and perhaps try to understand why I, as a pro-town person, would make the posts I have made so far this game? Every single thing I've done this game has had good reasons for it, and I've explained them.

[Yosarian2]

you seem unduly paranoid about the possibility of being lynched today, when a quick glance at the vote count makes that seem very unlikely

No, I'm pretty sure I won't get lynched today. I'm also pretty sure that, if I'm right and you and penguins are both town, the scum are going to leave you and penguins alive long enough to use you guys to lynch me later. I don't see any way of preventing that if the two of you are going to completly ignore everything I say the way it has been, and I think it's likely to end up costing the town the game in lynch or lose.

[Yosarian2]

you are 3rd party scum, aren't you

(sigh) No, I've just played enough games so that I can see exactally how this is going to turn out. But, whatever.

[Yosarian2]

I'm also pretty sure that, if I'm right and you and penguins are both town, the scum are going to leave you and penguins alive long enough to use you guys to lynch me later.

Nice. More twisted than a telephone cord.

It's also the truth, and I can't see any way around it. Especally now that your damn claim has made sure any SK or whatever now knows that neither you nor I are any threat to him, so we'll probably both make it to endgame.

[Yosarian2]

Well, that was one of the reasons I didn't want you to out the masons; I thought I had already mentioned it. Yes, if there's a scum mason, then the mafia will find out (or may have already found out) who all of us are; but if there's a second scum group; like say a SK (and I have a hard time imagining Nat not putting a SK his game, based on my meta of him as a mafia player) then he wouldn't know who the masons were, until you told him, Penguins.

[Yosarian2]

Well, that was one of the reasons I didn't want you to out the masons; I thought I had already mentioned it. Yes, if there's a scum mason, then the mafia will find out (or may have already found out) who all of us are; but if there's a second scum group; like say a SK (and I have a hard time imagining Nat not putting a SK his game, based on my meta of him as a mafia player) then he wouldn't know who the masons were, until you told him, Penguins.

Yosarian is a SK mason.

...

Tell me, do your posts actually have anything to do with the posts you claim to be responding to, or do you and rofl have some kind of improvisational game of mad libs going here?

[Yosarian2]

@yos- to answer your question, I like to claim mason on D1 regardless of circumstances (same with miller). I'm of the general opinion that claiming mason puts burdens on scum that they don't want. I didn't know PoS would follow with outing the others.

Um...claiming miller day 1 isn't a terrible play.

However, claiming mason day 1 "regardless of circumstances" is pretty much the worst thing you could possibly do. It's worse then claming vanillia by far, and that's generally a lynchworthy offense already. Are you really saying that, even in games where you know or are pretty sure all masons are pro-town, you'd still claim mason on day 1?

[Yosarian2]

yosarian is a very funny sk mason

Let me know when you intend to stop screwing around and start playing mafia.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2, you said you don't think she is scum because she acted like this before as town. I ask again, if she's like this when she's town, then what is she like when she is scum?

That's actually a valid question, and I'm not sure if I've played with her when she was scum before, although with all her alts it's hard to keep track. (Penguins, have I?)

Still, frustrating as she has been, nothing she's done this game is any different from how I've seen her act as town many, many times, so I'm not going to join that wagon.

[Yosarian2]

I also considered what we might become NK-bait. But then, it's so certain that at least one, if not more than one, of us is scum, that every time the scum nightkills a town mason, they are narrowing the field and exposing themselves. They'd be foolish to do that. Now I had not considered the issue of the SK; but since the SK is Yosarian, he too won't want to expose himself by targeting the masons for the NK.

Actually, you're still missing the point. The problem is that now the SK probably won't kill us, and instead, will be much more likely real town power roles, when I would much rather he would kill glorified townies like us.

[Yosarian2]

In other news, Litral is still scum.

(nods) Yup.

[Yosarian2]

The problem is that now the SK probably won't kill us, and instead, will be much more likely real town power roles, when I would much rather he would kill glorified townies like us.

I hadn't thought of

that.

It's as if you can read the mind of how a serial killer would behave in this game, it's truly uncanny, the detail in which to see the SK's point of view rather than, say, the more populous and prevalent mafia, which, I dunno, I presonally feel is more of a threat given that so far we had no night and no evidence of a serial killer.

Lol. Yeah, it's bizzare, it's almost like I might know what the right way to play a SK is, like I might have some insight into mafia game theory or something.

(Hint: It's not what I'm doing.)

Anyway, didn't I already go through all this, several pages ago?

[Yosarian2]

Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.

Yeah, right. Most of his recent contributions, as are yours, are OMGUS attacks. In addition, other games are irrelevant to this one as far as tells are concerned.

Um...what? Most of his posts have either been attacking me (not OMGUS) or attacking Vino (not OMGUS), or attacking Literl (not OMGUS). So, again...what?

[Yosarian2]

I also considered what we might become NK-bait. But then, it's so certain that at least one, if not more than one, of us is scum, that every time the scum nightkills a town mason, they are narrowing the field and exposing themselves. They'd be foolish to do that. Now I had not considered the issue of the SK; but since the SK is Yosarian, he too won't want to expose himself by targeting the masons for the NK.

Actually, you're still missing the point. The problem is that now the SK probably won't kill us, and instead, will be much more likely real town power roles, when I would much rather he would kill glorified townies like us.

This is back a couple of pages (end of 17) but I wanted to draw it to the front. This post sits

VERY

badly with me. FTR, if yos has information about the relative powerroles (or lack therof) of the masons, that is something that I, at least, do not know.

:blinks:

Seriously?

Ok. I was assuming "mason" meant what it geneally does, more or less, which was one of the reasons I was so pissed at you for claim, but on the chance I was wrong I'll drop this topic of conversation for now.

This is essentially the reason I wanted to claim so early in this case. I didn't want anyone yelling out "mason" in a crowded bandwagon to avoid a lynch. Yelling "glorified townie" is more or less the same.[/qujote]

Um....what? That makes absolutly no sense. You claimed mason because you didn't want anyone claiming mason under pressure later? And that somehow is the same as me explaining to Pengunins why it was so anti-town for you to claim for no reason, and why I was so opposed to her her outing the entire mason group for no reason?

I'm sure you saw the question in my last post, Lowell, and this seems like a really lame excuse to avoid answering it. In your defense, you tried to claim that you "always" claim "mason or miller" on day 1. I demanded for you to explain why you would have a meta-policy like that, when claiming mason for no reason is one of the dumbest play possible in a normal game of mafia, because I have a hell of a hard time believing that defense. So, you going to explain yourself, or you going to just admit your whole meta-defense was a lie and be done with it?

I cannot think of a reason pro-town yos would have made this post.

You still haven't given me a reason why a pro-town Lowell would claim mason for absolutly no reason, other then a weak meta-defense you provided no proof for and refused to explain.

[Yosarian2]

Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.

Yeah, right. Most of his recent contributions, as are yours, are OMGUS attacks. In addition, other games are irrelevant to this one as far as tells are concerned.

Um...what? Most of his posts have either been attacking me (not OMGUS) or attacking Vino (not OMGUS), or attacking Literl (not OMGUS). So, again...what?

The above is a reminder for Number14 who is still imagining that the only players I find scummy are for plain old OMGUS.

Those are the words of the SK himself, you know his opinion is objective.

To be fair I think he just doesn't want you to vote for him.

Um...have you been reading this game, dude? What on earth makes you think that me pointing out that SC was making a bad attack on Rotf would get Penguins to change her mind?

Really, if all of you people are going to keep insiting I'm scum, I'd like for someone to explain some kind of theory about how anything I've done this game would make any sense at all for a scum to do. Anything.

[Yosarian2]

Saying "Scum hates claiming" is a misrepresentation of the reality that most roles, scum or town, dislike claiming.

My experience is very different, otherwise I wouldn't have expressed the opinion.

My experence is that scum who think they have a safe claim love to get it out as soon as they possibly can. *cough**Lowell**cough*

[Yosarian2]

Saying "Scum hates claiming" is a misrepresentation of the reality that most roles, scum or town, dislike claiming.

My experience is very different, otherwise I wouldn't have expressed the opinion.

My experence is that scum who think they have a safe claim love to get it out as soon as they possibly can. *cough**Lowell**cough*

I can't believe you're even

suggesting

that Lowell may be scum. I can't put my finger on it, but that's not usually how you think. There is no reason for a scum mason to out himself early Day 1

Just the opposite. There are many reasons for a scum mason to out themselves early; for one, someone who claims mason day 1 first guy generally more likely to be trusted then someone who claims mason late game. For two, a scum mason is likely to think that claiming early will lower his chances of being investigated, or randomally vigged, or roleblocked, or otherwise targeted by power roles.

On the other hand, there is absolutly no good reason, at all, for a pro-town mason to claim day 1, and I'm not going to buy his "well, I always do this" meta defense unless he can at least give some examples of him randomally claiming mason day 1 for no reason under no pressure when actually being a pro-town mason.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, lord, Penguins. If you are town, you getting lynched dosn't help the town at all; I mean, yes, it increses the odds of us lynching right tommorow, but that's true any time a pro-town person is lynched, and it's not actually a good thing to lynch pro-town people instead of scum. And if you end up being lynched, all your self voting does is give the town less information then if a full majority voted you.

I mean, even if you're absolutly dead set on lynching a mason, it still dosn't make any sense if you are town to lynch yourself rather then going after some other mason you think might actuall be scum.

[Yosarian2]

Vino: Do you think her play is consistant with how you would expect a scum to act? If so, how and why?

Also, I'm a little disturbed by the apparent contradiction between you attacking Penguins because she was willing to lynch a mason, and you wanting to lynch Penguins, a mason. Could you explain that, please?

[Yosarian2]

PoS, you need to consider the possibility that not all people on your wagon are scum.

It's really difficult for me not to, given how impervious more than half the wagoners are to basic common sense and logic.

The irony is killing me.

Penguins, you do realize it's against the rules of the game to not "play to win", right? "Some people suspect me, so I'm going to punish my side by trying to lynch myself!" is not cool.

Especally since there's some people who I still think are more likely to be scum, like Vino or Literl, who easy could get lynched today, if you'd just stop tying a noose around your neck, jumping up and down, and yelling "LYNCH ME! LYNCH ME!"

[Yosarian2]

She actually has a good point about KoC.

Why would you say "I'll wait one hour then hammer you"? What, exactally, is "one hour" going to do, KOC?

Also, this:

The annoying thing is, I can't hammer you yet. Need some other bright spark, since you're at L-2, AFAIK. Shame.
At least we agree on something - I can't wait for you to die either, scum.

is really scummy, and this:

I think, if anything, Penguins, surely it should be scummier for me to put you at L-1 than to hammer? Surely the fact I'm willing to wait, and put my neck on the line by hammering, is less cowardly than to just put you at L-1 and wait?
Oh, and I always write "fellow townie", regardless of role, unless I think someone is scum. You really are reaching.

is worse.

KoC, if you are town who thinks she is scum, if you're so sure that you just want to lynch her now and end teh day ASAP, then why aren't you voting for her? Why are you saying "Well, I'll hammer her, but I won't put her at lynch -1". You realize that makes no sense, right? And the second post makes me think that the reason for that is that you think putting her at -1 would look worse then dropping the hammer.

Big

FOS:KoC

. Is likely to turn into a vote if he dosn't have a good reason for the "one hour" thing.

[Yosarian2]

Penguins, you do realize it's against the rules of the game to not "play to win", right? "Some people suspect me, so I'm going to punish my side by trying to lynch myself!" is not cool.

I want the scumbags to be exposed. Yes I'm still playing to win. I win with the team, not as an individual player.

The thing is, if are pro-town, then if you defend yourself (and, for the love of God, stop voting yourself) and get lynched anyway, then the scum have to work harder to get you lynched. They're more likely to be on your wagon. Wheras if you self-vote and tell people to lynch you, more townies tend to be more likely to end up on your wagon, IMHO, and it's harder it is to tell the difference later.

Especally since there's some people who I still think are more likely to be scum, like Vino or Literl [...]

Threre's some truth to this but I look at it this way. Once I'm dead and you know I'm town, there will be more certainty as to who is scum and who is town.

(shrug) It'd be useful information, sure, but the town gets a lot more information by actually lynching a scum, and then going back and seeing who attacked the scum, who defended, when, and why, then by any lynch of a pro-town person. So, again, if you are pro-town, you should be trying to lynch a scum.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

. I've thought about it, and I'm not willing to lynch a mason day 1.

I probably shouldn't question this, since you're unvoting me, but, why?

Also, are you going to answer my quesiton, about your claimed "I always claim mason on day 1" meta? Do you have any examples of you doing that in past games?

[Yosarian2]

Sweet mother of God, you people are so easily taken in. Well done Penguins, you turned it around. Good luck explaining yourself tomorrow when I really do flip 'Nilla.

unvote: Vote Knight of Cydonia

OH POOR ME, YOU ALL SUCK, WAH WAH WAH.

...is this a parady of Penguin's play here, or are you being serious?

In any case, since you ignored my question,

unvote

Vote:Knight of Cydonia

, like I promised I would. Also because you just look really, really scummy in all of your recent posts.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and I just noticed KoC just claimed vanillia even though he's nowhere close to a lynch.

Die suck die.

[Yosarian2]

You had just better freaking be scum. If you're town, there is absoltuly no excuse for you acting like this, just giving up, self voting, claiming vanillia, and waiting to die, rather then actually answer the legitiate problems people have with your play.

Everything I said to Penguins before about self voting also applies to you. Except that unlike her, you haven't really given me any reason this game to think you're town, at all.

[Yosarian2]

Looking back at KoC's posts now, I'm pretty happy with voting him.

For example:

FoS: GnKoichi

for his "town or not, you might as well be lynched" comment.
While not a strong scumtell, since I've seen townies get frustrated with idiots before, it is still worrying, since it's essentially an excuse to push a mislynch and say "I did say "even if he is town it helps us".

Which is rather funny, since he later said

I'm almost at the point where I'm pissed off enougfh to policy lynch roflcopter for being an absolute fucktard.

Ugh. Right, you know what?

unvote; Vote roflcopter

Because I'm fed up of you leading the town into a massive circle-jerk about sk masons and how yos is very funny and quite frankly, if I had tits, you'd be getting on them. As it is, the only reason I'm not pulling my hair out is because the chemo will do a quicker job of getting it out. But only just. That's how fucking annoying you are.

Which is almost the exact same thing he just attacked GnKoichi for.

The only other scumhunting he did was a vauge post where he said

Anyway, so, yeah. Vino or Yos for scum, and the Vino lynch could very possibly confirm the presence of scum mason/s. If there are more than 1 scum mason, I'd look at PoS next.

Huh? No reasons, no explination, nothing. The statement makes no sense, on any level, and he never explained any of it.

I see no reason to not lynch KoC today.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote

This game is way too confusing.

Well, I'm pretty sure KoC saw what Penguins did, came to the incorrect conclusion that it "worked" to get pressure off her, and decided to do the same thing himself in order to avoid getting lynched. Of course, it's not going to work here; unless he is willing to actually defend himself, I'm pretty sure he needs to die.

[Yosarian2]

Honestly, KoC has little reason to defend himself.

Umm...do you disagree with me about the case on him, or about my questions about his actions?

This game has rewarded players like rofl and PoS, so he might as well play as poorly as they have.

Huh? Both rofl and PoS have been more useful and pro-town today then he has, even before his meltdown.

My vote stays on PoS until anyone looks worse, and I urge everyone to carefully reread the game and refocus on a real scum hunt.

:eyebrow: So, you don't think the votes on KoS are a "real scum hunt"? Could you clarify?

[Yosarian2]

I refuse to respond to anyone who makes a purposefully cut off quote. Right now, that's Yos & PoS.

I'm not even sure what post you're talking about, Gn. If I quote part of a post, that's because I want to specifically respond to that part of a post; it's much clearer and easier for everyone else to read then quoting an entire 5 paragraph post and then trying to respond to the first line of te post. Are you trying to suggest I misrepresented someone?

Also, do you really think it's pro-town for you to "refuse to respond" to certain posts based on some vauge problem of yours with how those posts are formatted?

[Yosarian2]

I can admit that you and rofl may have gotten me a little tunneled. But honestly, that's because you have both played so blatantly anti-town. If Empking or others are guilty of the same things as you, they are only to a lesser extent. I'll lynch the greatest of the evils, if that's okay with you.

You keep saying this, but you have yet to actually explain at all how Rofl's play and Penguins' play has been especally anti-town.

(And yes, I'm only quoting part of your post, because that's the relevent part. So sue me.)

They have not always given logical reasons for their suspicions, but they have also been trying harder then most to actually find scum, and I think have done more to help the town find scum. And, again, I think Penguins has acted in a much more pro-town way then, say, KoC.

What do you think about KoC's play before he flipped out, Gn?

Yos left out the part that gives my quote context, so that he could try to apply a fragment to a different situation.

I really, really hate the way you're trying to dodge questions here with this, dude.

I'm going to repeat the questions again. This time, I suggest you answer them.

1. Do you disagree with my case against KoC, based on his actions? Why do you think he dosn't have to defend himself?

2. I tend to think that both Penguins and rolf, while being sometimes illogical and even frustrating, have still both been more pro-town, more actually involved in hunting scum, then Koc has been. Do you agree or disagree?

3. So, you don't think the votes on KoC are a "real scum hunt"? Could you clarify?

If we lynch KoC and he comes up scum, I think we're going to need to take a really, really close look at Gn tommorow. He's trying really, really hard to prevent KoC from being lynched here, and he's using weak excuses to refuse to explain his thoughts on KoC and his reasons for it.

[Yosarian2]

Puzzling is ScumCougar and GnKoichi's hesitation on hopping on the KoC wagon.

Prove that us hesitating to vote Knight of Cydonia when we think someone is scummier than him is scummy.

She was talking about GnKoi. Interesting that you're grouping yourself in with him, SC. And read Gn's posts carefully; you don't think he seems to be delibratly trying to find excuses to avoid getting on the KoC wagon and finding excuses to avoid even answering questions about KoC?

Rogl: Why is PoS obvtown?

Why don't you contribute your own thoughts, lurkerscum? You're totally not town in this game.

I have a gift for you.

unvote, vote: Empking

More question dodging, and a crap vote on EmpKing's Alt to boot. Just for this and the above-noted inconsistency:

CONFIRM VOTE: PENGUINS OF THE SERENGETI

What?

First of all, you can't accuse her of "question dodging" when she's responding to a post where EmpKing asked Rotfl why he thinks Penguins is town. That dosn't make sense, since she can't and shouldn't answer a question, directed at someone else, about what he thinks abut her.

And secondly; a crap vote on EmpKing? Really? In several of her recent posts, she's been pointing out the fairly low amount and quality of contrabutions he's made this game. Do you disagree with that? You're trying to make it sound like this is a vote she's given no reason for, and that's clearly not true.

[Yosarian2]

Edit: Duh, she actually did mention SC in the post he's responding to. Not sure how I missed that. Ok, I withdraw the first two sentances of the last post.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

PoS, you finally brought some real analysis to the table. I hate that it took this huge wagon for you to start acting a little more pro-town, but you've managed to string together good reasons for most of your actions in a short period of time. I still don't understand why you didn't just do this when I asked half a game ago, but whatever. The biggest problem I had with you were your baseless accusations. Now that those are gone, I'm going to cast my net wider.

vote: Yosarian

In Post #630, you ignore that I already clarified that point.

Clarified what point? What are you talking about? You keep talking in such vauge terms. Clarified the point of "what post you're talking about"? Well, yeah, I eventually figured it out, as you can see in post 631, but nonetheless when you refuse to even specificy what you're talking about it makes your posts a lot hard to read. And that's a really bizzare reason to vote someone; you're voting me because I asked you to clarify what you were talking about?

You used a fragment of my quote in order to apply it to a different situation. If you would have used the whole quote, it would have been clear to everyone that the context didn't match your question.

Again, there were 3 different "questions" I asked you about in that post, so I'm not even sure which one you are talking about. Nonetheless, if you already gave an answer to a question I asked, it would obviously be more pro-town for you to just SAY that, rather then say "I'm not going to respond to Yosarian".

Here, I'll quote the whole, scummy post:

Honestly, KoC has little reason to defend himself. This game has rewarded players like rofl and PoS, so he might as well play as poorly as they have. Frankly, I'm getting a little fed up myself, though I'm going to keep pushing what I feel is the pro-town action. My vote stays on PoS until anyone looks worse, and I urge everyone to carefully reread the game and refocus on a real scum hunt.

There, I've quoted it "in context". Does it look any less scummy now? Not to me, because nothing in there justifies your first sentance, which was you trying to give KoC an excuse to not defend himself against reasonable problems people were having with his play. Nothing in there answers my second concern, which was me asking you if you thought KoC was acting pro-town before he self destructed. And nothing in there answers my third question, which was why you dropped that incredibly dismissive line in there at the end, where you tried to imply that somehow the suspicions on KoC were "not a real scum hunt".

Yes, I quoted your post in parts, becasue that make it easier to read. That does NOT justify you refusing to answer my questions. And it SURE as hell dosn't justify you OMGUS voting me.

And also, this post really ,really looks to me like you're trying to make the KoC wagon go away. You drop a quick but vauge "I'm getting a little fed up myself" comment in there, which looks more like distancing then anything else, but the rest of your post seems to be you trying to tell the rest of the town to ignore everything KoC has been doing and just lynch Penguins, without offering any commentary on what you think KoC has been doing. And, when I called you on that, you first just flatly refused to answer my question, and then you actually OMGUS voted me when I didn't drop the subject.

Do you realize just how scummy you look right now, Gn?

In Post #631, you say that I haven't clarified why I felt Rofl & PoS were playing Anti-Town, even though that's pretty much ALL I've talked about ALL GAME!

Explain it again, then. Yes, Rofl and Penguins have been playign very agressivly, and often illogically. Why do you think that is more anti-town then KoC's play, which has done almost nothing, and when he has, his logic has been consistantly worse then Penguins' or rofl's logic?

Oh, and to answer Yos's question, so he can't say I'm just making excuses to avoid talking about KoC:

Oh? I can't?

When I ask you about KoC, and you respond with this:

I refuse to respond to anyone who makes a purposefully cut off quote. Right now, that's Yos & PoS.

Then I sure can say you're making an excuse to try to avoid talking about KoC. That, right there, very much looks like you making an excuse to try and avoid ansering my questions about KoC.

He honestly didn't show up on my radar before he melted down. I'd have to reread, which I plan on doing for other reasons, but he seemed pretty null in my mind before he self voted, and I'm willing to excuse that because of the context it came in

Ok. Well, he hasn't made that many posts this game. It should take you about 5 minutes to go back, read them in isolation, and tell me if you think his posts look pro-town or anti-town this game. Please do so ASAP.

(we all just saw PoS avoid a lynch by self voting, and he and I were extremely frustrated by this).

Do you really think that's what just happened?

PoS didn't get lynched, despite her self vote, because I think most of the people in this game think she looks pro-town. Her self vote certanly didn't help her, just the opposite, and I dislike you suggesting that self-voting is somehow a good stratagy to avoid getting lynched. And, after you made such a big deal about her self vote, it's incredibly disturbing the way you try to protect KoC from criticism involving his behavior.

[Yosarian2]

Agreed.

PoS is clearly trying to understand why SC and Gn are so hesitant to get on the KoC's wagon, or to even speak ill of him, when they were both so willing to lynch her for the exact same reason. She's looking for possible scum connections. "Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

[Yosarian2]

Can we please just lynch this guy already and move on? He's clearly not goign to do anything else that might help us figure out his alignment, and there's like a 80% he's scum and a 20% chance he's a vanillia townie who's going to be useless for the rest of the game.

[Yosarian2]

Honestly, Yos, no. I have no desire to do any of that. Call me scummy for it, but considering how so few people in this game have done anything to back up their opinions, I'm tired of being questioned so hard by people.

unvote

I'll admit, this is coming from frustration. This game is just way too much work, mostly because the overly aggressive style from many players has made it really hard for those of us who focus on logic and evidence to keep up. it's way too much work for something that's just supposed to be fun. I'm going to take a back seat for now and when I'm caught up enough to help, I will. Until then, screw it.

Well, fine, just understand that if you don't do a real analysis on KoC sometime between now and when we lynch him today (and I'm pretty sure we are going to lynch him today, at this point), that's it is going to make you look bad tommorow, especally if he's scum, but either way really.

[Yosarian2]

"Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy. When I start a sentence with the words "Prove that..." I really mean "Give evidence that..." Clear to everybody?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "prove an action is scummy"/

Not to answer for her, but if it seems clear to me person X is obvscum, and person Y seems strangely hesitant about voting person X, I will comment on it, and consider it as a possible link between the two (that is, if X comes up scum, then Y looks bad). Didn't you realize that that's what Penguins was doing?

Now, if you have a logical reason why you think Penguins is more likely to be scum then KoC, or why you otherwise didn't want to vote for KoC, that would be a good response for you to make. However, "prove that it's scummy for me to not vote X" is not a good response for you to make. Clear?

[Yosarian2]

Guys: we're not seriously letting KoC off the hook here without even a coherent response from him, are we?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sold on Yos' explanation in post 251.
So I would like to know, when this game started, did you or did you not know that you're a mason?

Correct. I did not realize that until DGB tipped me off with the comment about my role and why was I voting Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

Er, why are people voting KoC, because of his poems?

ARe you reading the game?

She actually has a good point about KoC.

Why would you say "I'll wait one hour then hammer you"? What, exactally, is "one hour" going to do, KOC?

Also, this:

The annoying thing is, I can't hammer you yet. Need some other bright spark, since you're at L-2, AFAIK. Shame.
At least we agree on something - I can't wait for you to die either, scum.

is really scummy, and this:

I think, if anything, Penguins, surely it should be scummier for me to put you at L-1 than to hammer? Surely the fact I'm willing to wait, and put my neck on the line by hammering, is less cowardly than to just put you at L-1 and wait?
Oh, and I always write "fellow townie", regardless of role, unless I think someone is scum. You really are reaching.

is worse.

KoC, if you are town who thinks she is scum, if you're so sure that you just want to lynch her now and end teh day ASAP, then why aren't you voting for her? Why are you saying "Well, I'll hammer her, but I won't put her at lynch -1". You realize that makes no sense, right? And the second post makes me think that the reason for that is that you think putting her at -1 would look worse then dropping the hammer.

Big

FOS:KoC

. Is likely to turn into a vote if he dosn't have a good reason for the "one hour" thing.

He was acting totally irrationally during the Penguins thing. The whole "I'm going to hammer Penguins unless someone tells me not to in the next hour" was incredibly scummy.

Then, instead of answering my questions, he spazzed out and self voted, and claimed vanillia.

Then, I went back and re-read all of his posts, and saw how totally scummy and useless he's been all game, and how the only thing he's actually called a scumtell when someone else did it was something he soon after did himself.

Looking back at KoC's posts now, I'm pretty happy with voting him.

For example:

FoS: GnKoichi

for his "town or not, you might as well be lynched" comment.
While not a strong scumtell, since I've seen townies get frustrated with idiots before, it is still worrying, since it's essentially an excuse to push a mislynch and say "I did say "even if he is town it helps us".

Which is rather funny, since he later said

I'm almost at the point where I'm pissed off enougfh to policy lynch roflcopter for being an absolute fucktard.

Ugh. Right, you know what?

unvote; Vote roflcopter

Because I'm fed up of you leading the town into a massive circle-jerk about sk masons and how yos is very funny and quite frankly, if I had tits, you'd be getting on them. As it is, the only reason I'm not pulling my hair out is because the chemo will do a quicker job of getting it out. But only just. That's how fucking annoying you are.

Which is almost the exact same thing he just attacked GnKoichi for.

The only other scumhunting he did was a vauge post where he said

Anyway, so, yeah. Vino or Yos for scum, and the Vino lynch could very possibly confirm the presence of scum mason/s. If there are more than 1 scum mason, I'd look at PoS next.

Huh? No reasons, no explination, nothing. The statement makes no sense, on any level, and he never explained any of it.

I see no reason to not lynch KoC today.

Since then, he's absolutly refused to post content in all, and just keep posting in meaningless useless poems rather then defend himself.

Did you really not understand any of this, Emp?

And can someone please tell me why KoC has not been lynched yet?

[Yosarian2]

Also, is there a reason you didn't censor the link to the QT, #14?

Good point.

Lucky there's nothing there yet, we haven't had a chance to talk yet, but we are probably going to need a new quick topic now, we can't use that one now that everyone knows the link.

Mod, should we make another one, or do you want to?

Not that we have much to talk about at night now anyway.

[Yosarian2]

So wait. We are allowed to post PM's. Doesn't this mean that #14 was just confirmed as a townie if the other mason players have one that matches? Surely the mafia masons will have a slightly different one, and if #14 had it, he wouldn't have access to the town one, specifically the "Alignment" line that he was able to reproduce perfectly.

Only problem with that line of logic is, the alignment line is also just like that in the vanillia townie PM the mod gave us first post.

[Yosarian2]

On the other hand, #14 may have had to make some kinds of changes in order to make the PM look like a pro-town mason PM. For example, I would think that a scum-mason PM would include names of scum partners somewhere. It seems kind of unlikely to me that #14 would make those changes, and then forget to remove the quicklink URL.

No absolute proof of anything here, of course, but I think I'll consider it a small point in #14's favor.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I donno about "confirm", but here's the real mason PM.

Name: Straight G
Flavor: Your a gansterlicious pimp.
Alignment: Town--You win when all non-neutral factions besides the town are dead.
Role: Mason
Passive Abilities

The Shady Lady

: Each night, you may speak to the other people who go to The Shady Lady Gentlemen's Club at this quicktopic(http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/9bnWjUfcej5). The people who attend this fine establishment are orangepenguin, Yosarian2, GnKoichi, Lowell, Penguins of the Sarengeti, Numberfourteen.

Confirm In-thread.

[Yosarian2]

Aw shit.
Fucking Coug.

Tee hee

Unvote: Knight of Cydonia

since I believe your claim. You can breathe now (unless Natirasha modkills you).

I'm almost certain that one of Numberfourteen or Yosarian2 has to be scum since their quoted mason PM's differ.

Our flavor is slightly different, with me being "gansterlicious" and him being "bombastic", and with slightly different parts being bolded. I wouldn't assume that necessarally means anything, though, especally since Nat probably designed this game in such a way that quoting role PM's would not break the game, since he put that fairly unusual rule in his ruleset.

Also note, Penguins mentioned her role PM is also "gansterlicious" and has the same bolded parts.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway,

Unvote:Knight of Cydonia

for the moment, I guess. I'd like you to explain your post restiction fully now, and also answer the questions I asked you about your actions in respect to the Penguins wagon, if you please.

Also, Gn, I'm still not sure why you keep assuming #14 is confirmed town. Most likely, if there are any scum-masons, the PM would be the same except for the alignment line (perhaps with the scum buddies listed there, or something), so it'd be pretty easy to take that out and replace it with the townie alignment line from the mod post. I don't really think 14 is scum, but calling him confirmed is a streach.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, ok, never mind then.

And yeah, the bold would change depending on how it's quoted, that's true.

[Yosarian2]

I voted her because she outed the masons.

I'm still voting her because of her anti-town scummy play.

Outing the masons was anti-town, yes, but if she's a scum mason, she wouldn't really have any reason to do it then either, since she could just tell her scumbuddies at night, so I woldn't really say it was scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - my post restriction is exactly as quoted. I can only post in lines that rhyme.
That could be rap, or full epic saga petry, but after I started with a four-liner from This Vicious Cabaret, I decided in go on in that form.

So...you couldn't have been more useful while rhyming? Even just let us you had a post restriction because of your votes?

I have to rhyme
All the time

Post restrictions suck
Unvote me you f*ck

I mean, I once had to post in poetry in an ABAB format for an entire game, so I feel your pain, but you can at least be coherent.

And...what was with the self vote and the vanilia claim then? Also, could you respond to the questions about your actions on the Penguin wagon now?

[Yosarian2]

Amazing how certain Yos is that I'm going to flip scum. The accusations of SK perhaps make a little sense now. I see the wagon is building up... but slowly.

I had been trying to pressure you into acting in a more pro-town way, but by this point, I had basically given up.

I still don't get it. I mean, fine, you had a PR of "you must talk in poetry." But did it also say "you must be absurldy subtle and impossible to comprehend" as well? I mean:

THe next poem was essentially me screaming "FOR GODS SAKE CAN'T YOU SEE THE REALLY OBVIOUS PR BREADCRUMB?"

No, I didn't. Was it really that hard to fit the words "post restriction" into a rhyme scheme?

And if you have a post restriction that triggers at X votes or something, why did you claim vanillia?

[Yosarian2]

Lol

Anyway, I'd go with that.

Vote:Literl

Always up for a good lurker-wagon, especally when the guy has looked incredibly scummy in the handful of posts he did make.

I mostly agree with DGB's top suspects, although Lowell still much higher on my list. Probably because she is convinced that "scum don't claim for no reason, anyone who does that is probably town" and I am still convinced that "town don't claim for no reason, anyone who does that is probably scum."

[Yosarian2]

Seriously, I'm quite interested in what you think once you do that re-read, Vino, especally consdiering that in the early game I suspected a link between you and him.

[Yosarian2]

PS: The rules say no image posting. It's modkillable. FYI. Enjoy your death. If you still want a re-read analysis, I'd be happy to give it.

(sigh) Damnit. No, I didn't realize that, since I haven't read the rules for this game for about a month. Sorry, mod.

On a side note, if I do die, let me just note that you fishing for a modkill on someone as obvtown as I am here is a very large scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

Haha well damn. Accusing me of fishing for a modkill when I was just reminding you of the rules? No class. If it was an honest mistake, I'm sure he'll let you off.

Reminding someone of the rules is one thing. Making a big deal about how something is "modkillable", and with a phrase like "enjoy your modkill", to try to get the mod to kill someone for you, on the other hand, is very often a scumtell. You can say I have "no class" if you want, but since I personally have seen scum do that exact thing for that exact reason more then once, I do still consider is a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

I just realized that PoS is in no way cleared by the PM discussion. I reread that whole section, and realized that all the info PoS gave had already been confirmed by both #14 and Yos, so everything she said could have been a lie to tie herself into the two suddenly town masons.

Given this, plus her complete refusal to accept an attack against a legitimate target (Lowell) and her strange changing of mind (see my last post) I feel very comfortable returning to this line of attack.

unvote, vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

That dosn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't see how her not suspecting Lowell of being scum makes her scummy, unless you're suggesting they're both scum together, which dosn't seem that likely. I also don't really see how she changed her mind; I've got the impression that she's felt you were scummy for a while, especally after you voted me several pages ago.

[Yosarian2]

I had been trying to pressure you into acting in a more pro-town way, but by this point, I had basically given up.

How would pressuring KoC exactly make him act more pro-town? If the use of pressuring is to see their reactions if they're scummy or not, and KoC acted scummy, why didn't you vote him rather just "give up"? Its seems as though you both are on the same side and trying to coach KoC into acting more townly in process of bussing at the same time.

What on earth are you talking about? I was voting him, I had been voting him the whole time, that is how you pressure people. Generally, if you say "You're going to die unless you start acting in a more pro-town way, and start making some sense", people start doing that, which is good for the town in and of itself and also makes it easier to read the person.

And by "give up", I meant that I gave up hoping we'd get some kind of reasonable response from him and decided we might as well just lynch him and be done with it.

Did you read that part of the game, dude? Because I spent a lot of time trying to get KoC lynched there, and I'm confused how on Earth you could think I "Wasn't voting him" or was "trying to coach him", unless you just weren't reading the thread at all.

[Yosarian2]

Gn: I suppose, since that question was adressed to me as well as to others, I'll answer it.

As far as I know, there isn't anything different; I think I just hit the quote button on the PM, and then copy and pasted the reply into the thread. Here, I'll do it again.

Name: Straight G
Flavor: Your a gansterlicious pimp.
Alignment: Town--You win when all non-neutral factions besides the town are dead.
Role: Mason
Passive Abilities

The Shady Lady

: Each night, you may speak to the other people who go to The Shady Lady Gentlemen's Club at this quicktopic(http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/9bnWjUfcej5). The people who attend this fine establishment are orangepenguin, Yosarian2, GnKoichi, Lowell, Penguins of the Sarengeti, Numberfourteen.

Confirm In-thread.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - what is your opinion?

Mine is exactly as yours. The spaces, the missing spaces, the errors, there is not a single character out of place.

What is Koichi up to?

I don't know. I've got a few speculations, but I'll see what he has to say before giving him any outs here.

[Yosarian2]

GnKoichi, I don't think she is "making fun of you". As I pointed out myself, you often speak in such vauge terms it's very hard or impossible to figure out what you're talking about. If you actually have questions for her, why don't you just ask them with specific quotes like she said?

[Yosarian2]

replacing in.

reading up.

Who are you replacing? If you're replacing SC, then cool, I'd like to hear what you have to say. If you're replacing literl, you should know that you're the #1 bandwagon a few days before deadline and you might want to consider claiming.

Anyway, let's please lynch someone before deadline. Right now, I think Literl has 4 votes on him, and I think Empking has 3. There are also several people not voting; everyone needs to bandwagon up ASAP, I'd be fine with either bandwagon at the moment just so long as we lynch someone; if we spend this long on day 1 and totally fail to lynch at all it would be teh suck.

[Yosarian2]

I

just said

that we have 15 days until the deadline. Two solid weeks is plenty of time.

Oh, really? (checks) Ah, you're right. That's what I get for listening to KoC.

This post looks very scummy for trying to solicit a claim from someone who has very few votes, and for trying to rush a bandwagon.

This is lame, though. Trying to rush a bandwagon? Dude, do you realize how long it's been since we first started trying to bandwagon Literl? Remember, back when you said that he looked incredibly scummy but didn't want to lynch him because you thought he might be a jester? We could have lynched Literl 10 days ago without it being a "rushed bandwagon".

[Yosarian2]

This post looks very scummy for trying to solicit a claim from someone who has very few votes, and for trying to rush a bandwagon.

This is lame, though. Trying to rush a bandwagon? Dude, do you realize how long it's been since we first started trying to bandwagon Literl? Remember, back when you said that he looked incredibly scummy but didn't want to lynch him because you thought he might be a jester? We could have lynched Literl 10 days ago without it being a "rushed bandwagon".

s/rush/push/ sorry. This is what I have a problem with right here: "everyone needs to bandwagon up ASAP, I'd be fine with either bandwagon at the moment just so long as we lynch someone." The excuse of "the deadline cometh" is arguable, but the post rubs on me as if it has the wrong motivation.

First of all, it wasn't "so long as we lynch someone". It was "so long as we lynch Literl or Empking". In any case, though, if we had been coming up close to a deadline, my post would have been entierly right. There are few things worse to the town then a very long da that ends with a failure to lynch; it totally demotivates the town, and scumhunting tends to go totally down the tubes as we spend another whole day spinning our wheels with no real information, not to mention the fact that the town losing a lynch is very bad for the town.

Even seeing as we're not actually close to a deadline yet, the only difference is that there's no longer an urgent need for Literl's replacement (if he is Literl's replacement) to claim right away, since he's only got 4 votes on him. But everything else I said is still valid, especally that I dislike the fact that several people aren't voting at all right now.

[Yosarian2]

First of all, it wasn't "so long as we lynch someone". It was "so long as we lynch Literl or Empking".

No.

everyone needs to bandwagon up ASAP, I'd be fine with either bandwagon at the moment just so long as we lynch someone

Your words exactly. Post 902.

Right. Like you quoted, I specifically said "either bandwagon", right after talking about the literl wagon and the Empking wagon. "Either wagon" clearly means "one or the other".

[Yosarian2]

No. When I pointed out statistical arbitrage, I was illustrating that common scumhunting techniques lose their efficacy

That's not actually true, for the best scumhunting techniques, since the best scumhunting techniques rely on either A. catching people for doing actions that just benifit scum more then town; or, to put it another way, look for stuff that scum would love to do if they thought they could get away with it; or B. rely on psychology and instintive reactions that point to natural inherent differences between scum and town, that can be spotted even if the person is trying to hide them. (Although, Penguins, bussing actually is one that is subject to it; if everyone expects bussing, then scum have no reason to vote for each other, so they don't.)

Anyway, enough theory. This argument is silly, and completly irrelevent. I will mention that I specifically avoided speculating on Gn's motives because if he was setting a trap I didn't want to give it away to any possible scum masons who might theoretically fall for it, and I'm still not entierly clear why Veno didn't do the same thing.

[Yosarian2]

Well, seeing as we have 11 days before the deadline, I don't mind giving Litral's replacement a few more days to read through the game first. if he dosn't say something soon, though, I wouldn't mind just lynching him.

[Yosarian2]

Just like to point out that this is the only thing Empking has said in the past 5 days.

Yos is obv town.

That's great, empking, but who do you think is scum, and why? What do you think about Literl/ThAdmeral?

[Yosarian2]

I really don't like POTS' collective argument over wy he shouldn't be suspicious of her.

...what?
What aguments are those, exactally?


Anyway, I'm going to go "against the grain" here and say that ThAdmeral's recent posts are more reasonable then most of what Literl said. It's not a huge town tell or anything, I'd still lynch him if needed at deadline, and he's still on my list of suspects, but considering the options, I think I'll switch over to a

unvote

Vote:Empking's Alt

for now, anyway.

[Yosarian2]

i'll switch to empking at deadline if necessary

ditto this. although I'm not sure why it would be. What has ThAd done that's taken him off the chopping block?

Well, he's done more rational and useful analysis in the last page then Empking's done all game, and none of it seemed especally scummy to me. (shrug) Literl still did make some big scumtells early on, though; I'd still be pretty happy with either wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Five days to deadline. This is starting to look like a no lynch, nobody has more than four votes, and posting frequency is rather low, with lots of lurkers.

5 days is a lot of time, espeally since most people, it seems, would be pretty happy with either an empking or an admeral vote. No lynch would be terrible, but I don't understand why you and Gn are suddenly acting like it's going to happen; I hope the town isn't that dumb, and I see no reason to assume we are. There's more then enough active players to lynch someone here. [star wars quote]I find your lack of faith disturbing.[/star wars]

On another note, Gn's actions during the last page or so look really scummy. The reason he gave for voting Rofl was pretty damn weak, especally considering that we are getting closer to a deadline, and there's no wagon of rofl, and Gn seems worried about a no-lynch. Now, if Gn had a really strong case against rofl and thought he could start a new wagon today and get him lynched, and he persued it really agressivly, I would be fine with that, but instead his rofl vote is weak, unlikely to go anywhere, and it sounds like he himself dosn't expect his vote to go anywhere. Frankly, vote looks more like an excuse by Gn to stay away from the two bandwagons that might go somehwere, either to try and cause a no-lynch, or because he dosn't want to be a part of a lynch wagon in order to avoid leaving a record, or both.

My random shot in the dark guess here, based solely on Gn's actions, would be that Gn is scum, that ThAdmiral is town, and that Gn is trying to get some pro-town points by saying so repeatedly, while at the same time not actually getting in the way of the Admiral bandwagon in any way or pushing any other viable bandwagon. In other words, it looks to me like Gn wants the Admeral bandwagon to succeed, but wants it to succed while he is going on the record as being opposed to it in order to make himself look good. That's just a shot in the dark here, could easily be wrong in any number of ways, but that's the kind of the vibe I'm getting from Gn's posts right now.

[Yosarian2]

@ Yos

Is there anyting to infer from Koichi's behavior re: the Empking wagon?

Not really; he hasn't mentioned it the EmpKing wagon in a long time, I don't think (based on a quick skim of his posts; if I missed something, let me know), which, if Gn is scum, might mean Empking is his scumbuddy, or might mean Empking is town and he dosn't want to be associated with that wagon either.

I will mention that doing this kind of reasoning always makes me nervous, since I'm starting with an unproven assumption and then going way out on a limb by trying to deduce things from that; don't put too much credence on that last paragraph about Gn and ThAd; I'm not, I'd still vote ThAd at deadline if necessary. It's just that, if Gn *is* scum, much of his recent behavior looks like him trying to intentionally and loudly link himself to ThAd (declaring him pro-town over and over again, using ThAd's reasonable question to Rofl as an excuse for an unreasonable vote, ect) which makes me think Gn and ThAd aren't scum together.

[Yosarian2]

Not really; he hasn't mentioned it the EmpKing wagon in a long time, I don't think (based on a quick skim of his posts; if I missed something, let me know), which, if Gn is scum, might mean Empking is his scumbuddy, or might mean Empking is town and he dosn't want to be associated with that wagon either.

I agree with this assessment.

It's just that, if Gn *is* scum, much of his recent behavior looks like him trying to intentionally and loudly link himself to ThAd (declaring him pro-town over and over again, using ThAd's reasonable question to Rofl as an excuse for an unreasonable vote, ect) which makes me think Gn and ThAd aren't scum together.

In doing so, he's also ignoring the Empking wagon by voting elsewhere. So I'm thinking that if Koichi is scum, then he's scum with Empking, and vice-versa.

That could be. Or it could be that he knows both major wagons are on townies, and so just wants to sit back and let the town kill each other without getting in the way or getting blood on his hands. Either one seems to fit his actions.

[Yosarian2]

That could be. Or it could be that he knows both major wagons are on townies, and so just wants to sit back and let the town kill each other without getting in the way or getting blood on his hands. Either one seems to fit his actions.

If that's true, then we should lynch Koichi...

Yeah, that's certanly an option. Just so long as we lynch somebody.

[Yosarian2]

You think we have enough votes to string him up before deadline?

[Yosarian2]

Sure, I'll go with this.

Unvote:Empking

.

Vote:Gn

. If this one dosn't happen, I'd still prefer to go back to empking.

[Yosarian2]

I still don't think it's a great idea to lynch a mason D1, different tho his PM may be.

Normally, I'd agree, but he's soooo scummy; if there is one scum mason, I think it's probably him.

[Yosarian2]

That's L-2... meh. I think Koichi is frankly just as fed up with the "me-too"-isms of rofl and PotS as I was, so it's a null tell.

Uh...not really sure what you mean by that, but whatever it, that's not at all the reason Koichi gave for voting rofl. And the reason he gave makes no sense to me.

[Yosarian2]

is the case against the admiral mostly for the litral half of his play or is there something more recent? It isn't my favorite lynch, but I'll switch in the case that it's necessary to avoid nolynch.

Mostly the Literl scumtells, I think.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, you think it's scummy that he said he's join a gn wagon to avoid a no lynch?

I donno, I don't really like ThAdmerial wagon but I'd join it to avoid a no-lynch. Accidental no lynches, especally after a day as long and draw out as this one, are really, really bad for the town, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

Remember everyone, deadline is tommorow, and we need a majorty before then. Time to string someone up.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, there's several different types of hider.

Unfortunatly, it's not a very confirmable role; only way I can think to test him would be to have a vig try to kill him while he hides or something.

[Yosarian2]

He's not a doc. He doesn't save the person he glues, he only saves himself. If the person he glues gets killed he gets killed too. It could just as easily be a scum role that he recast as town. In fact, I think that's more likely given the behavior of the mechanic. If it is a town role, it's not a very strong one, so I'm okay with seeing him lynched, especially because it's too late to switch. My vote makes L-1 and enables hammer so I'll wait to see other opinions before I vote.

I will say, though, that a scum hider dosn't make much sense; what's the point of saying "you avoid a nightkill if you hide with someone who dosn't get killed" to someone in a scum group when they control the nightkill themselves?

Neah; he's probably either telling the truth, or lying completly; I don't think a scum hider is likely.

[Yosarian2]

I still don't think mafia hider is likely.

Of course, plain old fashoned "un-nightkillable godfather" is quite possible, so a vig testing still wouldn't really prove anything.

[Yosarian2]

Is it too late to lynch Empking?

I'm on board.

Do we know what time tommorow the deadline hits?

[Yosarian2]

So, is that definatly a lynch, then?

[Yosarian2]

Thanks for taking over, armlx.

Also, in the interest of fairness at this point as Natirasha was typing up fake claims for mafia as needed,

I am banning role PM quoting

. I really don't want this to turn into "Oh, that looks like a fake claim how armlx would write it, not Nat".

How does that work in terms of role PM's that have already been quoted and other discussion that has already happened about role PM's? Would I be allowed to quote the post where I already quoted my PM? Would gn be allowed to discuss how his role PM is different from the one I quoted?

[Yosarian2]

K.

Knight of Cydonia- Cult Recruit killed N1
StrangerCoug- Alarmist killed N1
BSG- Townie killed N1

If I missed any night results, let me know.

Also, in the interest of fairness at this point as Natirasha was typing up fake claims for mafia as needed,

I am banning role PM quoting

. I really don't want this to turn into "Oh, that looks like a fake claim how armlx would write it, not Nat".

Also, please help me correct the player list if I missed any updates. Also, mass prod going out tomorrow, anyone who doesn't respond in thread in a week will be replaced (this part of the message will be in the prod as well).

Haha mod was making up fake claims? Dumb.

Step one is to look back over anyone who was too eager to claim and figure out why...

Outguessing the mod is risky, but I'm tempted to say "there must be at least one scum who didn't quote their PM yesterday, or the mod wouldn't have made this rule change." Of course, I don't think that many people quoted their PM yesterday, so that dosn't really tell us much anyway.

[Yosarian2]

I have an idea, let's lynch somebody, preferably someone that was distancing from KoC, i.e., Cult Leader.

Good call; lynching the cult recruiter today has to be our #1 priority.

Which probably means Gn will have to wait for later; still think he's likely to be a scum mason, but cult recruiter/mason seems unlikely.

[Yosarian2]

vote: yosarian2

lynch the mason cult recruiter / maybe sk

So, you're still stuck on that weird "Yos is a third party scum group" obsession even though you have never had any logic behind it?

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. I would expect the cult recruiter to be someone who was quiet day 1, someone who tried to keep under the radar and follow the crowd, because especally on day 1 all a cult recruiter'd really care about would not being lynched and not being noticed. So...I'm thinking head hancho or alvinz95.

vote:Head hancho

[Yosarian2]

I don't think it would make much sense for there to be a cult recruiter mason. God knows a cult recruiter dosn't need any extra bonuses or anything.

If I was reviewing a game, I personally would shoot that idea down right away; looking at it objectivly, it seems to me that just knowing the identity of the other masons (that kind of information would be very useful to a role like that), combined with the fact that it's (normally) very hard to lynch a mason, especally early on, would take an already overly powerful role and absolutly break it in half; the only real hope a town has of beating a cult is to lynch the cult recruiter fast and early, and making a cult recruiter also a mason and therefore damn hard to lynch early (again, in most games; this particular game unfolded differently, but I'm talking in terms of setup design) just seems blatently unfair.

That being said, I suppose trying to outguess Nat is probably a fool's game, and nothing in this game would really surprise me.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, yeah, I knew you were going to say that.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, yeah, I knew you were going to say that.

Why do you think he would? Are you doing anything that gives off such vibes?

Oh, I knew that if I made the argument that a cult-recruiter mason was unlikely for setup balance reasons, that even though I was actually making the argument in order to both defend you from empking and to explain why I didn't really want to lynch Gn today even though he's likely scum, that he would think I was trying to defend myself with it, and that that because of his paranoia about me that would somehow make him even more sure I was scum. I don't care, though; I'm going to explain myself and what I think about the game.

[Yosarian2]

At this point, Head Hancho hasn't posted since Febuary 17th.

Mod, can we get a prod or a replacement on him, please

[Yosarian2]

There was certanly nothing in the mason PM implying we were unrecruitable.

[Yosarian2]

alvinz95: Interesting case, and if there is a scum mason and it's not gn, number14 is another possibility; however, I still don't think a mason cult recruiter is that likely.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; yeah.

[Yosarian2]

a town mason has no way of knowing beyond absolutely wild and baseless conjecture whether or not it is possible for one of the masons to be the cult recruiter

I've explained like 3 times why I think that, for setup reasons, it's unlikely for a mason to be a cult recruiter. If you disagree with my logic, then explain why. I'm not going to go along with some stupid mason lynch that I think is a bad idea just because you get all freaking paranoid every time I say what I think.

Call me "stupid" all you want, rofl, it dosn't prove your damn point.

Also, dosn't this whole paranoid "Oh, he's just trying to make us think a cult recruiter mason is unlikely thing to protect himself" theory of yours totally conflict with how I was trying to lynch a mason yesterday because I thought he was a scum mason?

[Yosarian2]

the only person who benefits from the town believing that the cult recruiter could not possibly be a mason is a CULT RECRUITER WHO IS A MASON.

Or, a pro-town, if they are right.

Look, your whole "ONLY SCUM OUTGUESS THE MOD" thing here is just wrong. Whenver someone has a claim, everyone has to try to "outguess the mod" and guess both how likely the claim is, and what the odds are of that claim being scum. We ALL did that yesterday, when we ALL speculated that it was likely for a member of the masonry to be scum since there were 5 masons and setup balance and yadda yadda yadda, and you didn't have a problem with it then. Now that I'm speculating that it's unlikely for a mason to be a cult recruiter for setup balance reasons, you suddenly have a huge problem with that kind of speculation?

Since I was in absolutly no danger at the time, and I never tried to use that as a way to defend myself, that just seems like rampent "OMG YOS MUST BE SCUM" paranoia. Especally since the main point of my last post was to try and prod alvinz95 on what his opinion was on the subject, since he did a whole big analysis of number 14 and yet totally failed to mention number 14's outed role at any point in his analysis, which seemed odd; I wasn't even sure if alvinz realized number 14 was a mason.

[Yosarian2]

'

Unvote

Vote: Pots

How shocking. You really had me on the edge of my seat there..

If we're lynching the CR and not scum today, I will

unvote GnK, vote: Yosarian

.

So, you got any actual logic behind that?

I realize you're very likely a scum mason, but even so, you scum need to help the town lynch the cult recruiter today if you want any chance of winning, so I'd suggest you help me find him today.

[Yosarian2]

Usually, cult leaders that attempt to recruit scum, die.

I have to think about this.

Is that true in large games?

Not that I've seen...usually, in a large game, when a cult recuiter tries to recruit scum, the recruit attempt fails, but they don't die. The other way is a bit too swingy and random for the taste of most game designers, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I still think Head Hancho is the most likely suspect for cult recruiter. He's vanished, so it's hard to say anything new about him, but I still want to lynch him today.

[Yosarian2]

Theres your answer. So just to make sure, numberfourteen is mason and orangepenguin is not? If so, I'll be voting orangepenguin.

They're both masons.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I still think Head Hancho is the most likely suspect for cult recruiter. He's vanished, so it's hard to say anything new about him, but I still want to lynch him today.

I could be swayed in favor of this idea, I think. Tell me again why he's scummy?

Basically, he fits the "profile" better then anyone else at this point; he stayed fairly quiet and low-key through day 1, just followed bandwagons started by other people; the only votes he made was following someone onto the GN wagon, then following people onto my wagon, then following people back onto the Gn wagon, and that's it, really. He was here, he was posting, but he didn't really do anything to attract attention to himself.

He basically just fits the cult recruiter profile (someone who tries to not be noticed, tries to stay under the rader, dosn't really have any inside information yet day 1, would kind of like to lynch a scum but dosn't really care that much) better then anyone else in the game. I really don't get good vibes from his posts in general, either. The one thing that confuses me is why he'd recruit KoC, assuming he did it last night, but that kind of confuses me no matter who the cult recruiter is.

[Yosarian2]

I agree that Gn saying someone "could be a power role" could very easily be scum fishing. His explination (that "power role could be town, scum, or third party") is a pretty weak excuse for it.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I don't think it's that likely you're a cult recruiter, orange, but your unexplained "I'm going to follow rofl and vote Yos for absolutly no reason" vote was pretty darn scummy.

[Yosarian2]

no alvinz its very simple, scum mason is gnkoichi and cult recruiter mason is yosarian

So, your plan is to just ignore the wrongyness of your logic that has been pointed out by, well, pretty much everyone, and just hope that you'll get people behind you by just repeating yourself over and over again instead?

[Yosarian2]

I think you answered your own question. Reading into night kills has proved disastrous for me in the past so I won't delve too deep, but if the CR has confused everybody with his recruitment choice then I think the only information that we're going to get from his choice is that we're dealing with a very smart CR.

That dosn't really make sense to me, though.

Night kills are different. Once someone is night killed, then the fact that the scum chose to kill them, their role, their alignment, ect all instantly becomes public knowlege, and the scum know in advance that that will happen; so in that case, it is possible for scum to sometimes use that to their advantage by WIFOMing the town about such things to, like you said, cause confusion.

However, cult recruitments are very different. The town might never know that a certain person was recruited, unless that person dies. In fact, it's probably to the cult's advantage if the town dosn't even know there is a cult for several days. A cult recruiter generally wants to get recruits who are trusted and influential, who will be listened to and who are unlikely to be lynched. Why get someone who was frankly basically lynch-bait, like KoC after his day 1 play? Was the cult recruiter not paying attention? Was he planning to bus KoC to make himself look better? Or am I missing something?

[Yosarian2]

Well, obviously the cult recruiter DID recruit KoC

Well, yeah. Duh. That's the point, I'm trying to figure out what the cult recruiter might have been thinking in order to help me figure out who it is. I don't know how useful it'll be, but it certanly can't hurt

, and I'm not having any of that WIFOM-sandwich Yosarian is trying to feed me.

What "wifom sandwich" would that be?

[Yosarian2]

.

also, head honcho is obvtown,

Based on what?

[Yosarian2]

...

[Yosarian2]

Based on what?

By process of elimination. He's not scum, so he's town.

Holy shit, DGB owned Yos.

...

Is that really what you think happened there?

Holy shit, DGB owned Yos.

Then again, Head Honcho could be cult recruiter if he's not scum.

Empking or Yosarian2 are topping my cult suspicions, but I don't have base yet.

...

Is anyone in this game planning on making any sense any time in the near future?

[Yosarian2]

alvinz, just vote for yos

You know, yesterday, I thought you were trying to be helpful. Today you're just being useless and annoying, repeating yourself over and over again even though your entire argument was proven to be complete crap logic.

[Yosarian2]

even though your entire argument was proven to be complete crap logic.

thats your opinion

No, it's not "my opinion". I demonstrated how your argument was incorrect, other people agreed with me, and you completly ignored my point. As far as I'm concerned, you refusing to answer a valid argument is pretty much an admission on your part that you know I'm right, and yet you don't seem to care.

[Yosarian2]

"Your arguments are worthless, it's an outrage!" said the caught scum.

Or, more often, the town Yosarian, especally when I'm right. And you know this, or at least you should by now.

[Yosarian2]

You know what, you guys let me know when you want to play mafia. I think I've had about enough of "let's just keep saying Yos is scum over and over again for absoltly no fucking reason until his head explodes".

At least we know Orange is the scum mason, since he's just following rofl's stupid bullshit and absolutly refusing to share any thoughts of his own. If we didn't need to kill the cult recruiter today, I'd be voting him right now.

[Yosarian2]

I don't know what rofl's alignment is. However, you are hiding behind him, and using his obviously false arguments as an excuse to attack me, which strongly implies that you are scum and not on his team; probably you're intending him to take the blame when I get lynched and come up town. So I'm thinking that he is either town or cult, probably town although I'm not as sure about that as I was yesterday, and that you are mafia.

If that's not true, then explain for yourself exactally why you came to the incorrect conclusion that I am scum.

As for frustrating me; yes, it's really god damned frustrating when people keep saying "Yos is scum" and have no bloody reason for it, because you're wrong and I can't show you why you're wrong if you refuse to give any reasons. I don't get how you're now pretending that me getting frustrated over the scum-tactic of "repeat yourself over and over again with no logic" somehow reflects badly on my alignment.

So, if you have a damned case against me, make it. Otherwise, I'm just going to assume you are scum trying to get a mislynch off someone else's craplogic (because that's even scummier then trying to get a mislynch off your own craplogic, IMHO) and lynch you tommorow, after those of us who actually are town find and lynch the cult recruiter today.

[Yosarian2]

I don't get how you're now pretending that me getting frustrated over the scum-tactic of "repeat yourself over and over again with no logic" somehow reflects badly on my alignment.

you know, i could have sworn i once read a comment you made in md about how "pounding the table" could be a good pro-town tactic. maybe i'll go try to find that.

Yes. I'm pretty sure I also said "when combined with a good, logical argument" as a part of that.

You "pound the table" in order to get people to notice what you're saying and in order to get a response. You do NOT "pound the table" as a way to IGNORE the response FROM the person you're attacking, that's just not helpful at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yos has resorted to attacking roflcopter's playstyle.

...yes, I've resorted to trying to figure out someone's alignment by discussing what they've done in the thread. The horrors.

Anyway, why haven't you commented on my main point, Alvinz, where I figured out Orange is mafia? It's odd you didn't even mention that, when you were suspicious of Orange earlier....

[Yosarian2]

Yes, we all know you've been tunnel visioned on me for bad reasons for a long time now, rofl. Other then that, I'm not sure what that collection of links was supposed to prove...

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, the really interesting thing here isn't Rofl's behavior, it's orange's behavior.

When player A attackes player C for a bad reason, and then player B follows along and also votes for player C with absolutly no logic or reasoning of his own, then that usually means that player B is scum, and not scum with player A. It's one of the most reliable scum-tells I know about.

Since Orange is probably mafia and not cult, we really can't afford to lynch him today, but hopefully if we hit the CR today the vig can take care of him tonight.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I don't know how to hunt for CRs myself, like I've said, but rofl's case was pretty convincing, convincing enough for me to vote you. If I offered reasoning of my own, I would just be recycling what he said basically.

Please, then, recycle what he said. What was it in his "case" that you found "pretty convincing", exactally?

When Player A attacks the CR and Player B follows and votes the CR, that usually mean that Player B is smart enough to see a good case when he sees one, and doesn't reflect alignment at all.

So; does that mean that if I die and turn up town, that the town should then assume you are scum?

[Yosarian2]

Well, if you die and turn out to be CR or scum yourself, it doesn't rule me out as scum or clear me as town to the rest of the players, so why would the opposite result be true?

Because I believe I've caught you as scum, and your entire defense is "Oh, but you're a cult recruiter, so my actions aren't scummy". So, again, that would imply that if I die and come up town, then you have no defense at all against the huge scumtell I pointed out, and that the town should consider you scum. I notice you didn't actually answer that question.

People can form their own opinions. I am just doing my best job in trying to get rid of the scum - you seem like the most likely to be the CR.

I notice you keep saying that, but you still refuse to say why you think that.

You've been caught.

Just keep repeating that, scum, if it makes you feel better. It's not going to help you, though, if you keep refusing to explain why you think I'm a cult recruiter, or why you think a mason cult recruiter is likely, or what parts of rofl's case you found convincing.

...if you are town like you say and someone else seems to be more likely to be the CR than you, I will probably change my vote to them, but right now, you seem like the best candidate.

And he just repeats again that he thinks I'm the CR, with again no reasoning.

I don't think you're mafia though. In that regard, I think you seem pretty neutral.

You mean, you know i'm not mafia, since I'm not one of your scumbuddies.

[Yosarian2]

I think PotS laying low is more likely an indicator she was recruited.

From personal experience, when I've been recruited I tend to quit on the game and just coast through.

(cue lowell lurking jokes)

Well, there's only been one night and one scum-kill so far, so there was probably only one cult recruit so far, KoC, right?

[Yosarian2]

unvote, vote yos

for the sake of something happening, and because, sadly, rofl is the one I trust the most at this point.

"For the sake of something happening"? Seriously, lowell?

[Yosarian2]

If you want to "make something happen", then you should help me list the cult recruiter, who is like 75% likely to be head hancho.

Talking out the masons (yes, taking out the masons, unless someone actually gives me a good reason other then WIFOM paranoia why a mason is more likely to be a cult recruiter then a non-mason), these are the possible suspects for cult recruiter:


Vino
Head_Honcho
Empking('s Alt)
roflcopter
MafiaSSK
alvinz95

Alvinz has been playing well, and while I wish he'd explain his swings on me a little better, I'd bet he's town. Mafia SKK vanished compeltly yesterday, and hasn't been replaced yet, so it's unlikely he could have recruited last night. Rofl is frustrating, but I still think he's probably dumb town. Vino, I'm leaning either town or mafia, based on his day 1 behavior; he was going a little to far out on a limb too many times to be a cult recruiter, in my estimation.

That really just leaves Head Hancho or Empking. Head Hancho looks a lot worse to me at the moment; I wish Empking would say more, but his reactions make sense to me.

We lynch the cult recruiter today, before he has a chance to make a cult, we can probably win pretty easily, especally since I'm pretty sure OP is one of the mafia members. So can we please stop farting around and just lynch the cult recruiter, Head Hancho?

[Yosarian2]

there is no good reason to eliminate masons as cult suspects whatsoever

(shrug) I donno. We don't have much to work with here; hunting for one lone scum when he dosn't have any partners and we don't know anything solid about him or her except that he or she recruited KoC last night is really, really hard, but it's what we have to do today; so, all I can really do is make some educated guesses and hope they don't bite me in the ass.

If you have some counterargumet to my earlier argument that masons are less likely to be the cult recruiter, I'd like to hear them. Convince me we should be hunting in the pool of masons instead of in the pool of non-masons, and I'd be glad to do that instead. But we've got to start somewhere (and, no, your "yos is third party scum because I said so" is not somewhere). Besides, head hancho has pretty consistantly given me a bad vibe for most of this game; his posts and reactions just don't seem town to me, and he's generally been pretty quiet and under the radar.

[Yosarian2]

Haha, 75% sure, huh? Numbers and everything???

Meh, not really. But you're my best guess.

eh, what posts and reactions don't seem town? My only decent case yesterday was the one against you I think, is that what worries you?

Mostly, you didn't make any real cases yesterday. Your attack on me was weak and scummy, and you didn't make any other cases at all. Your posts in general feel off.

I get that we're coming from different places right now, but to me your argument looks like "honcho is third party scum because I said so"

No; you're third party because I went through the list of everyone in the game, thought about each one, and came to the conclusion you're more likely the cult recruiter then anyone else. If someone else has a better idea who the cult recruiter is, they should share.

The thing is, no one else other then me has at all tried to even look for the cult recruiter, except I guess ROFL, and he's wrong. So yes, I had to make a bunch of assumptions, but at least I'm trying to find the CR.

You're certanly not trying to do anything, you only show up and post when you're under attack.

(though repeated a couple times as 'bad vibe' and the like), so the more specific you can be the better. I pointed that out last time I responded to your case, and you have grown less specific = - (.

Meh. You were correct about the timing of your one vote, that was true, and that made me rethink things. Still, I still got a bad vibe from your posts, and more importantly, I've read everyone's posts again in isolation and no one else looks like a cult recruiter to me.

Also, it's starting to seem kind of strange to me that the pillar of your defense isn't really a defense, but that third party scum probably wouldn't be a mason

Nice try, but that was never my defense. My defense was that rofl's only argument against me was false, and it was. My theory that a mason is unlikely to be the cult recruiter is one of the assumptions I've had made in order to try and find the cult recruiter; it was never a defense of mine.

[Yosarian2]

Lol...wrong game, dude.

[Yosarian2]

You're certanly not trying to do anything, you only show up and post when you're under attack.

Oh, I don't think that's fair, I just happen to be under attack.

Sure, it's fair. The only posts you've made all day that had any real content at all were when you are responding to this attack from me, and when you responded to my earlier attack back on the 19th. Other then that, the only other content you've had all day was a one-liner asking why Penguins wasn't being more active. So I think it's perfectly fair to note you only seem to be posting anything when under attack.

And as far as trying to find the cult recruiter goes, I don't really agree with it on a game philosophy level. It is well intentioned, but it feels a little too Babe Ruth to say "today we find the cult recruiter" and restrict ourselves to trying to shoehorn someone into our vague idea of what that looks like in action. So I chose to simply vote for who I thought was least pro town.

The thing is, though; in most cult game, the absolute worst thing the town can do is to lynch mafia member after mafia member, that usually results in a town loss, sometimes a guarenteed town loss depending on how the numbers are. So, it might not be easy, but I'm pretty sure in order to win we do in fact have to try and focus everything we have on trying to find and lynch the cult recruiter and not the mafia members today.

Also, are night vigs usually one shot, or do they get one every night?

Well, both one-shot vigs and normal every night vigs are common, normal roles; every night vigs are probably more common. Why?

[Yosarian2]

yos, I don't like the honcho idea. I've tried to see it your way, but honestly his posts mostly look good to me.

Well, who do you think the cult leader is then?

[Yosarian2]

Well, both one-shot vigs and normal every night vigs are common, normal roles; every night vigs are probably more common. Why?

Well, I'm of the opinion that we must have a vig (I'm not familiar with the alarmist role, if that could have caused him to get himself killed let me know), since 3 non town factions with night kills plus a cult recruiter would be kind of absurd. Anyway, my take on the situation is: scum needs to kill the cult recruiter, and vig needs to kill the cult recruiter. Why don't we let them do it, and as a town focus on lynching scum? If we mislynch today, it does not look like the odds are with us.

Well, it would obv be better if we lynch the CR today then if the vig kills the CR tonight, since if he gets to tonight another townie gets culted.

Beyond that; if we hunt the CR today, narrow down the possibilities of who it is, but end up getting it wrong, it really increases the odds of the vig hitting the CR tonight (or the scum to, I guees, although I hate to count on the scum). If we follow your suggestion and just don't worry about the CR at all today, how is the vig supposed to find the CR tonight?

[Yosarian2]

This post is entirely, bizairrely meta. Are we really talking about the relative advantages of killing scum role X vs scum role Y? To think that we're good enough as a town to not only know how to do this is a stretch.

What?

Dude, don't you get it? IF TOWN KEEP LYNCHING MAFIA MEMBERS IN A CULT GAME, CULT WINS AND TOWN LOSES, PERIOD. IF TOWN LYNCHES PRO-TOWN PEOPLE, CULT WINS AND TOWN LOSES. Hell, if town keeps lynching cult recruits, cult still wins and town still loses. I mean, we might get lucky and have someone else kill the cult recruiter, but the best way to ensure that is to hunt the cult recruiter during the day and therefore, if we miss, help both vig and mafia kill them at night.

Either we're "good enough to know how to do this" (IE: we're good enough to find and destroy the cult leader ASAP) or we're going to lose. That's how cult games work. I'm sorry to hear you're pessimistic about our odds, but if we want to win, finding and eliminating the cult leader is what we HAVE to do; there's no ifs, and, or buts about it.

Every time you bring this up I can't help but think it's a way to avoid talking about something else.

Huh? Other then finding and lynching the cult leader, what is there that's even worth talking about, really? I think I already identified a mafia member, but I don't think we can afford to lynch him today anyway, because we have to lynch the cult leader instead. What else do you think I should be talking about?

[Yosarian2]

I'm saying the whole notion of us being able to tell the difference between cult and mafia at this point in crazy.

Eh, not crazy. Different win conditions, different circumstances, lead to different behavior; that's the whole point of the game, you know. Granted, there are some scum tells that both share, and if someone looked generally scummy in such a way that they could be either they might be a good lynch, but there are differences.

If there was someone I was sure was mafia, you can bet I would be lynching them. That you're not is strange to me.

If there's a cult, the absolute worst thing the town can do is lynch mafia members while the cult recruiter is still alive.

Let me repeat that.

If there is a cult, the absolulte worst thing the town can do is lynch mafia members while the cult recruiter is still alive.

I don't know the setup of this game, and a vig and stuff complicate matters a bit, but let me take a more simplified example. Say there's 3 mafia members and 1 cult recruiter in a 12 person mini game. And let's say that town dosn't get lucky enough to have the mafia kill the CR for them. This is going to be kind of a worst case scenerio, but let me just demonstrate something:

Day 1: Town lynches mafia
Night 1: CR recruits townie, mafia kills townie. (2 cult, 2 mafia, 6 town, 2 dead)
Day 2: Town lynches mafia
Night 2: CR recruits townie, mafia kills townie. (3 cult, 1 mafia, 4 town, 4 dead
Day 3: Town lynches mafia
Night 3: CR recruits townie. Cult wins. (4 cult, 3 town left.)

That's what happens if the town lynches mafia members in a normal cult game, ok?

Generally speaking, the biggest obsticle to a cult win is, oddly, the mafia; cult generally can't recruit mafia members, meaning some recruitments fail; mafia might kill cult recruits, mafia should be trying to kill cult recruiter. If the town just keeps lynching mafia member after mafia member, it usually makes for an easy cult win.

Granted, a vig, and the fact we've already got one dead cult recruit, means we have a LITTLE more flexability and time then in that kind of worst case scenerio. Depending on how lucky we are, perhaps we COULD lynch the entire and then still win; it's incredibly unlikely though.

IF we lynch the cult recruiter now, the cult is gone, dead, and we can focus on the scum. If we don't, then even if we catch him later, we'll always be in a 2 scum group game until we find and lynch all of the cult recruits while steal dealing with the mafia.

[Yosarian2]

If there is a cult, the absolulte worst thing the town can do is lynch mafia members while the cult recruiter is still alive.

I can't tell the difference between a scummy cult and a scummy mafiate. There's nothing I can do.

Well, the "right" play for a mafia goon is different then the logical play for a cult recruiter, much of the time. For example, (along with the mason thing, obv) part of the reason I'm thinking OP is mafia instead of cult is that the scummy "push the bad wagon for no reason" stuff he did is better suited to a mafia goon trying to achieve a mafia win condition then a cult recruiter trying to achieve a cult win; a mafia member would be more interested in trying to direct the lynch (so it dosn't hit them or one of their scum-mates; pushing townie wagons like that can be a good mafia play if the scum gets away with it) and a mafia member would in general be willing to take slightly bigger risks to secure a mislynch; while a cult recruiter, especally one with no cult members at the moment, dosn't really care who gets lynched so long as it's not him or her. That's a pretty significant difference, and again, looking at Head Hancho's posts today, and during the game in general, that is what his play looks like to me.

I think the mafia should claim, that way, we would be able to trust their opinion that the players they point to for being scummy are cult.

Sure. Hey, if I was wagoning someone, "you don't want to lynch me today because I'm mafia" is a defense I might actually take seriously, if the person was convincing about it.

[Yosarian2]

^^^^ This whole post still seems like a stretch. Even if you were

sure

OP was anti-town due to his play (I've looked, and I don't see it), it could just as well be cult as scum. Either way, he just doesn't want his buddies to be killed, right?

Dude, are you reading this game? The cult recruiter dosn't have any buddies right now, that's the point, and even if he did he wouldn't stick his neck out for them.

[Yosarian2]

But OP-scum's happy bandwagoning wouldn't imply that he doesn't have any scumbuddies, only that they weren't the focus of the wagon. /quote]

Eh, it's really more the kind of action from someone who cares about manipulating the bandwandwagon then from someone who dosn't. A CR wouldn't be expected to care right now about manipulating the bandwagon, for the most part.

Either way, if I were pretty sure OP were anti-town, I'd lynch him.

And if he is mafia, that would be an anti-town move at this point.

[Yosarian2]

k. lynch yosarian. deadline shmeadline. that is all.

Screw the deadline. We can't afford to lynch a townie today, and I'm sure you've realized by now that I'm town.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I don't like how the talk of strategy has taken over actual hunting. We don't know enough about the set up to draw charts or make plans to take down scum vs cults.

Get back to actual play analysis. This also goes to those who have done nothing recently but try to counter Yos' strategy ideas. None of this is contributing to the game at this point.

Um...I'm not "hunting" because I already figured out the cult recruiter is most likely head hancho, and no one has done anything to convince me otherwise.

So long as Lowell and others keep attacking me by claiming my "let's find the cult recruiter and lynch him" stratagy is somehow wrong, I'll keep defending it. I'd rather we just lynch the bloody cult recruiter, Head Hancho, and do it now before he gets a chance to recruit anyone else; or, if someone has a better suggestion for who the cult recruiter might be, we need to hear it.

So why are you saying I "haven't been scum hunting"? I'm the only one in this whole bloody town who has been hunting for the cult recruiter (again, except for rofl, and he's wrong), and that's the only thing that matters today at all.

[Yosarian2]

guys i already broke this game open.

just remember when i'm dead tomorrow that gnkoichi and vino are both mafia.

Dude, I know you're not stupid. Are you just hoping if you ignore everything important going on in the thread and don't say anything else about me or about the CR or anything you can get me lynched without getting any more blood on your hands, and hoping someone else will take the blame for mislynching me?

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure that if Yos wasn't the CR he'd have claimed Mafia by now.

Um

You mean if I WAS the CR, I'd have claimed mafia by now, right?

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure that if Yos wasn't the CR he'd have claimed Mafia by now.

Um

You mean if I WAS the CR, I'd have claimed mafia by now, right?

No. The CR wouldn't take the risk.

Well, I sure as hell am not going to lie as town and claim to be mafia, that would be incredibly stupid for all kinds of reasons. Are you really suggesting that I would do that?

[Yosarian2]

That's a weak series of assumptions, alvinz, but whatever; let's lynch the CR today and we'll talk about who the mafia is tommorow.

As I said earlier, Empking is a reasonable CR suspect, and I'll go to that wagon if needed, but I still think HH is more likely

[Yosarian2]

[quote="rofl']seriously, is this game over yet?[/quote]

Dude, I know you're not stupid. Are you just hoping if you ignore everything important going on in the thread and don't say anything else about me or about the CR or anything you can get me lynched without getting any more blood on your hands, and hoping someone else will take the blame for mislynching me?

[Yosarian2]

Do we have a deadline? Are we following nat's deadline rules, or was armlx going to set a deadline if things slow down?

Also, as I said before, I'll vote empking if needed, but I think HH is more likely.

By the way, if I suddenly change my mind and suddenly for no apparent reason think HH is town tomorrow, it probably means he just recruited me. [/wifom, mostly because it's piss me off to get recruited and then lose as cult all because I ID'd the cult leader as town.]

[Yosarian2]

We can kill HH tomorrow, over your objections, your weeping, and your pathetic begging that we let him live one more night.

<grin>