Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win
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GnKoichi Goon
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GnKoichi Goon
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GnKoichi Goon
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I don't like how the bandwagon discussion went, but I don't like both sides of it. I don't know, something felt disingenuous about pretty much everyone involved in it.unvotesince my random vote target is getting replaced. Going to re-read soon and try to analyze the bandwagon stuff.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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StrangerCoug wrote:
I am not wagoning for the sake of wagoning; I am attacking your views on wagoning.MafiaSSK wrote:
I thought this wagoning for the sake of wagoning...StrangerCoug wrote:
Dude. There are times when bandwagoning is perfectly acceptable. Granted, wagoning for the sake of wagoning is scummy, but if everybody went off on their own tangents and never came to a consensus, the game would make no progress.MafiaSSK wrote:
So you think Bandwagonning in a game like this is okay?Yosarian2 wrote:That's really not true; especally in a large game like this, a small early bandwagon is unlikely to go to a lynch, it gives the town something to talk about, and gets the game going. Frankly, the chances of a random early speedlynch without the guy even getting a chance to claim in a game like this are close enough to zero so as to not even be worth worrying about.
Unvote: roflcopter
Serious vote: MafiaSSKVote: Strangercougfor misunderstanding MafiaSSK's statement in a way that I don't think is even possible.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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GnKoichi Goon
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Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason. It's a safe lie, because when it's pointed out they can just say "that was just a misunderstanding" and remove their vote. That was my initial idea, Coug, that you couldn't possible have misunderstood that, so it had to be a lie. However, for now,unvotebecause of:
rofl wrote:not for the quote wall, that would be infantile. and i'd like to see if anyone else sees what i see before giving reasons.vote: Rofl
It was odd enough for you to FoS me for no reason. It's just plain scummy for you to cop out on backing it up.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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GnKoichi Goon
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Coug, I asked you to read more carefully because Yosarian wasn't telling you to vote SSK. He was giving a timeline of events, including the point at which you placed that vote.
The misunderstanding that I originally accused you of still stands, which was that you defended yourself against SSK as if he accused you of wagoning. He wasn't. He was saying that your attack on him was unjustified, as he felt he was pointing out someone who was "wagoning for the sake of wagoning", which you had said you agreed with. He was questioning your vote, when in theory the two of you should have been able to come to some agreement. But a page later, you still haven't figured out what you did wrong, as your attempts to defend your posts have nothing to do with what you've been accused of.
Again, read carefully.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Once again, you fail to provide any back up to a statement. Your not posting just to tells us all you laughed. You're making a bid at painting me in a certain way. Instead of being sneaky about it, which makes you look like scum, why don't you provide some actual analysis of my posts?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Rofl, you have done nothing all game to show SSK is scum, yet you continue to hound him without reason (or without stated reasons). Are you just hoping that enough people will see SSK's name and start thinking suspiciously of him? Also, this is not me defending SSK; it's me anaylzing your posting pattern. I would say the same thing if you had selected any other player as your victim.
In fact, my entire "chainsaw defense" of SSK that you just pointed out was simply me making a case against Coug. It just happened to be centered around a statement by SSK that Coug misunderstood. You calling his post inane IS stifling conversation, since he was contributing to that discussion.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Coug, seriously, I already clarified that the wagoning vs bandwagoning issue is NOT what I accused you of misunderstanding. And NO ONE is voting you because of a misunderstanding. I had voted for you, and King is voting for you now, because we both believe that you DIDN'T misunderstand anything, but instead you are faking this lack of reading comprehension as a defense of your actions.
Please read post 116 to see what your original "misunderstanding" actually was. I find it hard to believe you still don't get this, which makes it easier to believe that this is an act. If it's not, if you're town, then you need to read A LOT more carefully, because this will eventually lead to us mislynching you.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Also, through King's quote of Yosarian, and Coug's continued lack of ability to understand anything that's going on, I finally caught on to the flaw in that quote. So, Yos & Coug: King was pointing out that Yos's series of paraphrases are incorrect. A better summary would have been:
SSK: I'm going to vote for Litral because he's admitted to wagoning. Wagoning is bad.
Coug: Sometimes a wagon is good, unless it's for no reason. Vote SSK.
SSK: I think Litral was wagoning for no reason.
Coug: I AM NOT WAGONING FOR NO REASON! I'M ATTACKING YOU FOR YOUR VIEWS ON WAGONING!
That last statement is almost a direct quote. It is Coug's original misunderstanding, and it's unbelievablity is the reason for both Mine & King's votes. That's why King said that if Yos doesn't believe it was an actual misunderstanding, he should actually agree with us, as that's what lead to the votes.
To Rofl: Another statement without any substance. I don't feel like responding to something that only furthers my opinion of you.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Coug, that was probably the best analysis you've provided all game. I don't agree with your conclusion, since I don't think you've connected what happened to a strawman argument, and that's your reason for voting. Still, a good turn of play from you.
I'm going to drop a MASSIVEHoS: Litral & Lowellfor trying to start a random wagon on a lurker instead of asking for a prod. There is no attempt to scum hunt here, and there is A LOT to analyze between myself, Coug, Yosarian, King, Rofl, and everyone else who's actually been participating. No one has any excuse for random voting like this.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Litral, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that number's post was not-pro-town to avoid one accusation and then turn around and say it wasn't scummy to avoid another. You clearly have an opinion on his post. You give two more evasive answers, the "jester" comment, and the new counter accusation on the bus comment. You really haven't done anything to clear your name.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Coug's on to the heart of it here. The original sin in this line of problems is your vote against a lurker when there had been no attempt to get him involved before hand. He got a little lost in the shuffle, which is understandable with the confusing arguments that were going on. When he DID get involved, you say it's bad timing. Would it have been LESS scummy for him to not respond at all and let himself get replaced? Once you voted for him, what WOULDN'T have been scummy in your eyes?
And if you think his opinion is pro-town, why not lay off the lurker and help push the scum hunt on someone like rofl?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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See, now I'm in a weird spot. I had worked myself over to a Litral vote, but now Rofl is voting for him. Do I really think Rofl is scum strongly enough to assume his vote must either be a bus or proof that Litral is actually town? No, of course not, I say to myself. And I can't judge Litral's actions by Rofl's reactions to them. Okay, self, that helps.
Unvote, Vote: Litral
Also, Vino, you don't say WHY you think Litral is Jester > Scum, which is why people have attacked you for it. You seem to observe the same thing the rest of us have, but you come to a different conclusion. Why? What is Jestery about attacking someone for posting after attacking that same person for lurking?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Litral, that argument keeps coming back because you have dug yourself into a hole where you have to both defend numberfourteen and defend yourself for attacking him. You've contradicted yourself so many times it's hard to believe anything you say. If you're not scum, you're a distraction of the highest order, and the town will be better off without you either way.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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I appreciate the vote of confidence, Penguins.
I disagree with that comment being a scum tell. If Litral is town, he's a bad enough player to distract everyone who is currently voting for him. It's anti-town behavior. If we mis-lynch today, I would rather lynch a town player who causes chaos. Obviously my first instinct is that he's scum, and I would rather lynch him as scum. I would also rather NOT mis-lynch in the first place, if we get a better scum read somewhere else. I'm just saying that if we mis-lynch him, it's his fault for playing so poorly. If he's town, he owes it to the game to play better to avoid the mis-lynch. Him not seeming to care about that only cements the scum read further in my mind.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Man, I don't even know what to say about this whole Mason thing. Both sides have made good points, and both sides have made unfair accusations. I have a couple theories on who might be the scum in this debacle pulling the town's strings, but not enough to worth mentioning yet.
All in all, I'm going to stay focused and leave my vote on the best scum candidate, and I would urge most people to consider the mason discussion nothing more than a distraction and try to focus on scumhunting instead.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Okay, so I agree that it is not scummy to have revealed all the Masons. This can be seen as a pro-town move, as it gives the town information that the scum assumably has or will have soon. However, Vino is right about one thing. If Penguins was scum, and a Mason, and knew that the rest of the Mason team was town, it would be a GREAT move to out us, saying he's trying to flush the scum members of the Masons out. He pushed the statistics, but those numbers don't mean anything if he knows he's the scum. It's unlikely he would be voted, since it was his plan to vote the Masons out. I don't see the town side of this move, so:
HoS: Penguins
That being said, can we PLEASE move past the Mason discussion and get back to the fact that Litral has been VERY scarce now that he's under fire. If he turns lurker in the face of a lynch, that means he has no good means of defending himself. Penguins & Litral could even be scum partners, with Penguins using the Mason tactic to distract everyone from the wagon against his partner [/stretch].---
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GnKoichi Goon
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This has degenerated into name calling. In the spirit of scum hunting, I think everyone should do a one paragraph summary of why they are voting the way they are. This should include quotes which support your analysis. Avoid emotional arguments, as I think they are dragging down the game right now. A quick reread of the player will likely help. I'll be doing the same thing tomorrow if I get a chance (packing for a move). If you're town, this shouldn't be a problem for you.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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unvote
Litral, that was kind of amazing. Your last post, though short, was oozing town. Pure, not forced, just town. I still don't like your earlier actions, but if this is the direction you're moving in, I like it.
vote: Penguins of S
I asked for something simple. Stop name calling. Start analyzing. While not everyone did this, you actually did the opposite. You defend your broad generalizations, which are not a good way to hunt scum, and then you continue your bad habit of repeatedly calling people scum and setting up lynch targets without any new information. A scum player has to invent reasons for a lynch, and I think that's what you're doing now. Combined with your attacks on anyone who questioned your legitimately questionable Mason tactic, I'd say you're the #1 scum right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if your partners were among those you've attacked.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Rofl, if you're not screwing around, you are scum. If you are town, you need to hear this: You ARE screwing around, and it's hurting us. Town needs to work as a team. It doesn't matter how well you think you've read the other people playing. You are making yourself seem suspicious, so no one here is willing to follow your leads. This isn't poker. It's a team game. If you're town, you owe it to us not to act the way you've been. Either play better, or continue to be as anti-town as you've been and get lynched. It won't be our fault; it will be yours. If Penguins of S wasn't doing the same thing as you in addition to his Mason revelations, I think all of his votes would be on you right now.---
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Rofl, I haven't said anything about who you're voting for, so for you to come back and accuse me of defending anyone, let alone calling me scum in the process, is way over the top. And THAT's you're problem. You are so far over the top that you are no longer helping town. And yes we DO need to work as a team. We don't know who to trust, so it's a town player's job to be TRUSTWORTHY! If we can't trust you, you look like scum. If you think you're so good at calling who is scum, don't you want people to believe you? Don't you want to provide analysis so that you can convince others to vote along side you? If you don't care about those things, you might as well not play, because getting the town on the same page and lynching a scum together is the only way to win this game. You care about that or you are scum yourself. Simple as that. Again, if Penguins of S wasn't doing the same thing and worse, you'd be my target right now.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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He claims to have all these amazing scum reads, but he gives no information. If he has this information and is withholding it, he's hurting town, as he passes on a chance to galvanize the town against a specific scum target. If he doesn't have this information, he's sowing chaos, which hurts town by giving scum a chance to organize or find an easy target.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Okay, I didn't have time for a full read of the last day, so if I missed something important, please point it out to me:
Penguins of S: Pushing harder against Vino because he wouldn't claim at L-3!? I wouldn't claim at that point. I don't know anyone who would. You've invented so many reasons to push this lynch. Why don't you spend that energy building an actual case instead of a house of cards? Oh yeah, because you're scum.
Rofl: You still haven't responded to my analysis of WHY I think your actions are anti-town (again, unless I missed it on my skim-read). Please let me know what you think.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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WHAT!? Penguins of S, you self voted! The only reason to ever do this is when you're scum and you want to cut a conversation short. You can't self vote and then accuse someone else of pushing an early lynch. Especially when the person you accuse says they would have unvoted to prevent you from reaching L-1. This is clearing just an attempt at sowing more chaos, like you've done all game. I WILL push your lynch. I WILL call for a hammer, and when I do so, it will NOT be pushing an early lynch. Your lynch is late in my eyes.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:
It sounds like you're anxious for a lynch, scum..orangepenguin wrote:I usually get along with rolfcopter too, but I guess he found another penguin to fly with.
Anyways, the self-vote was REALLY scummy. The next vote will not be the hammer if it takes 9 to lynch if Vino is right.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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To clarify: PoS is at L-2, not L-1. The next vote against him will not be the hammer.
PoS: If you wanted to lend credibility to your scum list, you should have provided better analysis all game. You've done almost nothing to actually analyze other players. You've simply been yelling scum in all directions. Rofl has done something similar, though he has provided marginally more analysis (really, not by much) and he hasn't made the mistake you made of outing the entire Mason group for a bad gambit (bad since we don't know how many scum [if any] are on the Mason team). For this reason, you are getting lynched, and you helping that lynch is a scum move, not a town one.
If this is some kind of elitism thing for you and rofl, drop it. Town has it hard enough as it is. If either of you are town, you need to realize how much you are hurting us. If you really have this experience in the game where you can make these amazing reads, it's your responsibility to make the case. If you just yell "scum" and then flail about for a few pages, you can't get mad at us when we think you're more suspicious than your target. You have created this situation, and if you flip town, the only thing we will have learned is what a bad town player you really are.---
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Cross post, obviously PoS is now at L-3.
And nice try with that trap, PoS, but no one is going to fall for it. You self-vote, claim that a hammer is coming, then wait for someone to try and hammer you, point out that it ISN'T a hammer, unvote, and call the other player scummy for pushing an early lynch. YOU are scummy for setting such a HORRIBLY trap.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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PoS, I've been voting for you for a long time. Are you even paying attention? I can't even respond to your wall of posts except to say that almost everything you said was a lie. You deny things that anyone can confirm by rereading the last two or three pages. If there are specific things anyone OTHER than you can't find, I'll quote them, but everything I accused you of was accurate.---
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Honestly, KoC has little reason to defend himself. This game has rewarded players like rofl and PoS, so he might as well play as poorly as they have. Frankly, I'm getting a little fed up myself, though I'm going to keep pushing what I feel is the pro-town action. My vote stays on PoS until anyone looks worse, and I urge everyone to carefully reread the game and refocus on a real scum hunt.---
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Penguins, the game has rewarded Rofl because despite his terrible play style, your worse play style and a handful of players who make excuses for him have pulled away any votes that he would have gotten. If the rest of this game were NORMAL, I think he would have been lynched by now for his baseless accusations.
NOW, please stop trying to evade. Do you have anything to say about how KoC is clearly emulating your terrible strategies in order to avoid a lynch? Do you think KoC is scummy for his actions? Do you think there's a difference between what he did and what you did? I really want specifics on this one, PoS.---
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What about it is against common sense? This seems like OMGUS, if anything.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:I'm getting a heightened scum alert from GnKoichi for post #598 (everything about it is OFF and against common sense)
Voting for KoC would not necessarily be showing consistency, since many of us find you scummy for many reasons in addition to your self vote, and KoC's self vote can be seen as a fed up townie much more easily than yours.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:He may be saying this because KoC has painted ScumCougar into a corner - by acting like me, ScumCougar has to vote against KoC to be consistent, but he's not ready to vote his buddy as quickly as he was to vote me.---
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I can admit that you and rofl may have gotten me a little tunneled. But honestly, that's because you have both played so blatantly anti-town. If Empking or others are guilty of the same things as you, they are only to a lesser extent. I'll lynch the greatest of the evils, if that's okay with you.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:
But why are you picking on Rofl in particular? How about Empking & Empking's Alt???? I mean, have you read his posts in isolation? MafiaSSK? Empking especially!GnKoichi wrote:Penguins, the game has rewarded Rofl because despite his terrible play style,
How about this mysterious Empking post?
It's a logical tongue-twister without a solution. Why does he even bother making posts like this?Empking's Alt wrote:PoS: If you and KoC turn up scum, will you admit to playing anti-town?
So I find it strange that you are singling out Copter. And if your complaint is baseless accusation, I'd go straight to ScumCougar, but perhaps he's more aggressive and you don't want to take him on?
This is another evasion on your part. Also, my refusal to answer your questions was because the rest of the quote was important to the sentence. You purposefully left out the part where I attack you as well as rofl, and Yos left out the part that gives my quote context, so that he could try to apply a fragment to a different situation.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:GnKoichi wrote:NOW, please stop trying to evade.It's rather hypocritical for you to suggest that I'm trying to evade anything since I've been posting like a madman, and totally sticking my neck out, while YOU JUST REFUSED TO ANSWER A QUESTION asked by TWO players because YOUR POST was NOT RE-POSTED in its ENTIRETY, mere MINUTES AGO.
This another giant evade. You go three paragraphs without coming even close to answering my questions.Penguins of the Serengeti wrote:
My strategy was to speed up my lynch, not to avoid it. KoC is not emulating me, he is parodying me. Words do matter. Use the right ones if you don't want to be misleading.GnKoichi wrote:Do you have anything to say about how KoC is clearly emulating your terrible strategies in order to avoid a lynch?
There are huge differences between what he's doing and what I did. For you to suggest that there may be similarities, other than superficial ones, is quite wrong, if not straight up scummy.GnKoichi wrote:Do you think KoC is scummy for his actions? Do you think there's a difference between what he did and what you did? I really want specifics on this one, PoS.
The fact that he prematurely claimed vanilla has given me pause. Unlike others that have condemned him for claiming vanilla without having to, I view this as a sign that he may be town, rather than scum. His pre-claim behavior was mega-scummy, so I'm not sure the early vanilla claim is enough of a counterweight to make me change my mind. If he becomes rational again, I'd be actually consider unvoting.---
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unvote
PoS, you finally brought some real analysis to the table. I hate that it took this huge wagon for you to start acting a little more pro-town, but you've managed to string together good reasons for most of your actions in a short period of time. I still don't understand why you didn't just do this when I asked half a game ago, but whatever. The biggest problem I had with you were your baseless accusations. Now that those are gone, I'm going to cast my net wider.
vote: Yosarian
In Post #630, you ignore that I already clarified that point. You used a fragment of my quote in order to apply it to a different situation. If you would have used the whole quote, it would have been clear to everyone that the context didn't match your question.
In Post #631, you say that I haven't clarified why I felt Rofl & PoS were playing Anti-Town, even though that's pretty much ALL I've talked about ALL GAME! If you disagree with me, that's one thing, but to try to discredit me by pretending I'm not backing up my points, that's scummy.---
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Oh, and to answer Yos's question, so he can't say I'm just making excuses to avoid talking about KoC: He honestly didn't show up on my radar before he melted down. I'd have to reread, which I plan on doing for other reasons, but he seemed pretty null in my mind before he self voted, and I'm willing to excuse that because of the context it came in (we all just saw PoS avoid a lynch by self voting, and he and I were extremely frustrated by this).---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Honestly, Yos, no. I have no desire to do any of that. Call me scummy for it, but considering how so few people in this game have done anything to back up their opinions, I'm tired of being questioned so hard by people.
unvote
I'll admit, this is coming from frustration. This game is just way too much work, mostly because the overly aggressive style from many players has made it really hard for those of us who focus on logic and evidence to keep up. it's way too much work for something that's just supposed to be fun. I'm going to take a back seat for now and when I'm caught up enough to help, I will. Until then, screw it.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Okay, I've been rereading. There are a lot of people I've been suspicious of for many reasons. There are many things that may be scum tells but may also be this terrible meta that I simply don't agree with or the frustrations caused by said meta. There is ONE thing, however, which was purely scummy, and which I never saw a good explanation for.
vote: Litral
His attack on Numberfourteen around Pages 6-8 was terribly scummy. Now, Litral has dropped off the map, perhaps hoping he won't put his foot in his mouth like that again, and trusting others to draw the ire of town.
However, KoC, you've had time to cool off. Drop the act and return to scum hunting or I will vote you.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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This is part of your style, PoS, that I've struggled to understand. Why aim that post at Rofl? Obviously we can all read it, and we all should be interested in scum hunting. So, why do you seem to care more about communicating with one player instead of the whole town team?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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BSG, I think the two questions you asked me were answered later, but just in case you don't catch them on your reread:
In regards to rofl: My attacks weren't based on him not having reasons; they were based on him not stating his reasons. He makes a lot of baseless statements, and people need to be held accountable to their reasoning in this game.
In regards to coug: There was a misunderstanding, which is made clear in a post a little bit past where you are now, I think. But in retrospect, it was an understandable confusion. What ended up fueling me in that argument was the fact that coug couldn't see how he possibly misunderstood something, and the correct interpretation seemed pretty clear to me. This made me think he was mistaken on purpose, to create an action he could back out of later without much hassle. Honestly, I think it was a bad push on my part a this point.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Do you trust him for anything in this game, or because of your history together? Is it possible that from trusting him in other games, you have some sort of reverse tunnelvision? Not that I think rofl has been overtly scummy (though I think both of your strategies are somewhat anti-town, as has been stated), but do you think you would be willing to call him scummy if you saw it? Would you feel comfortable outing someone you believe you could spot a tell in easily?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Empking: There was an attack made against KoC, some time around the near lynching of PoS (someone else could do a better job than I of summarizing the attack itself). Instead of defending himself in any way, he flipped out. He self voted, we all pretty much think in emulation (or parody) of PoS. I think he's upset, as was I, that we missed the chance to lynch a player as frustrating as PoS, but this is taking it too far. If his point was that bad players are surviving, he's made it. It's time to be productive again. Otherwise he just looks like scum using a gimmick instead of an actual defense.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Alright, I know that no one has to believe me at this point, but my PM matches that of #14, and Yos and PoS both seemed truthful in their attempts to confirm #14's towniness. For me, and for assumably one other person, this narrows the Mason Scum list to two people. I know it has to be OP or Lowell and (assuming there's only one) the other townie has it narrowed down to two (myself and the other).
So, I'm going tounvoteandvote: lowellfor his part in the same thing I was voting litral for (the forced wagon on #14 back around page 6/7). If we've got a fifty percent chance of getting scum, I'm happy pushing that direction.
Or there's no Scum Masons and the Mafias are laughing their asses off right now.
I'm also going to try to reread OP in isolation to compare him to Lowell.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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GnKoichi Goon
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I said that no one had to believe me. But since I happen to trust Yos & PoS's discussion, and #14 is pretty much confirmed town, I wanted to give the full explanation of my vote changing to lowell.
Also, rofl, seriously. Getting a scum call from you is like getting a lollipop from the bank. I'm not going to feel special; everyone gets one.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Oh, I read it. I see the point. You may have noticed that before that was quoted I had stopped attacking both you and PoS for those reasons. But don't expect a parade. I still disagree with that style, for the exact same reason why I don't trust you now. While your style may eventually trip up a scum, it also alienates the town players you attack in the process. If I'm called scum by a player who can't or chooses not to back it up, I'm less likely to trust that person's scum calls on other players, since I know at least one of them was BS. You can't have it both ways. Either play your way and stop worrying about my opinion of you, or play a different way.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Interesting. Since my last posts, Rofl has declared me obviously scum (post #740), however I seem to have dropped off of PoS's most wanted list (compare posts #732 and #753). This may be the first time the two of you have openly disagreed. Would either of you care to discuss?---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Man, I keep forgetting things I want to say.
To follow up on my last post, I did reread OP. Very few posts, but mostly pro town in my mind. From my other games with OP, this fits his style.
I would like to hear from Litral, Lowell, and OP in regards to recent events.---
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GnKoichi Goon
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Why no Lowell? He's on the remaining list of possible scum masons, he participated in the same meaningless attack Litral did, and he's lurked since then.
Also, since I haven't posted anything since you said I had dropped off your radar a little bit, why am I suddenly back in your top three?---
No matter where you go, there you are.