Mafia 89: Revenge (Game Over)

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Smithy88

for waiting until the last day to confirm.

[MonkeyMan576]

So how about them Seahawks?

[MonkeyMan576]

Mass claiming may be a legit tactic in some mafia circles, but where I play it is strongly discouraged, especially early in the game, where the mafia can gain an important advantage if a doctor or cop or roleblocker is forced to claim early.

[MonkeyMan576]

No one is saying that a doctor should claim. That would be suicide. Nor should a role blocker claim, except in certain, convoluted cases. I still think that a cop claim, with doctor support is one of the easiest ways to win.

No one is saying that we should mass claim. In a closed set up, there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth.

Why would the cop claiming help the town unless the cop had useful info? Surely the cop would have no useful info on day 1, so I don't see what good a day 1 cop claim would do.

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS:

Azrael and Lowell

Azreal's obvious logical fallacy and Lowell's determiantion to back up that logical fallacy is fairly troublesome.

[MonkeyMan576]

Massclaims only break games with bad setups. Bad setups are never written by competent moderators. Phayt is a competent moderator. Massclaim is a bad plan.

Sig'd.

Unvote, FOS Azrael001

. It's hard to even believe that you think that massclaim is a protown option.

Most good setups _do not_ have both a cop and a doc

, so as to explicitly not turn into games of "follow the cop". Urgh. What a terrible notion.

Huh? In my experience almost all games have a town cop and doctor, but maybe that's not the way the game is played here.

Votecount:
killa seven - 3 (farside22, alvinz95, Jebus)
Azrael001 - 3 (q21, Knight of Cydonia, Light-kun)
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (Santos, Azrael001, Lowell)
smithy88 - 1 (MonkeyMan576)
q21 - 1 (super random dude)
alvinz95 - 1 (PerArdua)
MonkeyMan576 - 1 (Sun Tzu)
super random dude - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)
Santos - 1 (ahaad)
Not voting: Wiccan Honor, Aceagain, Markenstein, sekinj, killa seven, smithy88, -TinVision-
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, I'm comfortable with changing my FOS to a vote at this point.

Unvote: Smithy88
Vote: Lowell

[MonkeyMan576]

Azrael001 post 52: I would think by now you would know the do's and don't's of mafia. This is a big don't FOS
Azrael001 POST 57: By outing the roles scum have the advantage on who to kill first. Bad logic
killa seven: post 60: bravo
super random: post 63: misses the point entirely.
Azrael001: Post 67: my head hurts. Outing the cop unnecessarly does not help the town. If the cop had a guilty I would say please so you have a guilty. Guess what it's day 1 and no info. Deal with scum hunting instead of role fishing.
Azrael001 post 70: No. It isn't just a simple doc, cop, gf roles. there can be role blockers, trackers, nurses anything as long as the game is normal.
Lowell psot 84: Then tell me who you find scummy?
Lowell post 92: Better reason taking a side why? Is one town and one scum in your view? Why?
super random post 103: feels like a me too post.
MonkeyM post 104: really lets BW for no reason.

Okay in short. AZ just stop. I get newbie who just doesn't have a clue read on this. Some of the votes on him are people who aren't explaining he is wrong. Lowell defending and taking a side is weird, but I don't see it vote worthy and people already speculating on a scum group when no everyone posting deserves and FOS
Man I don't know who is worse. KOC for speculation and trying to start a wagon on a newb without a clue. Monkey or super's vote switch to start a BW with no reason.

unvote:
vote: KOC
FOS: Monkey and Random super

That's a rediculous distortion of truth. I very clearly stated my reasons for voting Lowell with my FOS on post 98.

[MonkeyMan576]

This backs up the vote:

FOS:

Azrael and Lowell

Azreal's obvious logical fallacy and Lowell's determiantion to back up that logical fallacy is fairly troublesome.

Why do you think Azreal is scum and Lowell is determiantion to back him up? Do you think Az or scum would try and say "let out the PR's" How is that logical?

I don't know that either is scum, but suggesting to out the cop is anti-town, and I'm more worried about someone who is willing to follow someone blindly that makes anti-town statements.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think B&B may be on to something regarding KoC, but at this point I'm equally suspicious of Lowell, so my vote stays.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think B&B may be on to something regarding KoC, but at this point I'm equally suspicious of Lowell, so my vote stays.

But no FoS, or indeed, any meaningful statement of why you agree, or what makes you so certain that B&B is safe to follow. Hmph.

FoS MonkeyMan576

until you explain why you're so certain that B&B is a good person to follow opinion-wise.

KoS, you are FOSing anyone who thinks you are suspicious. Attacking those who are looking for scum does not look good in the eyes of the town. B&B already elaborated on how your statements to not logically follow your voting behavior, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate on it.

Votecount:
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (Azrael001, Lowell, farside22)
Lowell - 3 (super random dude, MonkeyMan576, Knight of Cydonia)
Light-kun - 2 (BridgesAndBaloons, Santos)
Azrael001 - 1 (q21)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
MonkeyMan576 - 1 (Sun Tzu)
Santos - 1 (ahaad)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (-TinVision-)
Not voting: Shanba, johhan, Markenstein, sekinj, killa seven, smithy88, PerArdua, alvinz95, Light-kun
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

is q21 trying to derail my light-sun case?
(after a brief check) woh, santos has done nothing this game.

B&B already elaborated on how your statements to not logically follow your voting behavior, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate on it.

when did I do that? Is there a misunderstanding here or have i forgotten what I myself have posted?

[1] Buddying up with Lowell. Basically he's defending him saying a meta, without elaborating on the meta. It just seems like he's trying to divert attention away from Lowell. He also says he "warrants another vote," but then doesn't vote for him. Looks like he's trying to stay clean if Lowell comes up scum.

[2] He's writting this now so he has a chance to attack Killa in the future if other people vote for him. Getting ready for an excuse to be opportune

[3] Um, he's only playing in two other games here. He has only 73 posts here. Is that really "more experienced?"
(yes I think what Azrael did was weird, but Light's ignoring the fact that Azrael isn't very experienced. I believe this Azrael's first non-open game here. is that correct, Azrael? It's like Light's trying to make his case seem stronger than it is).

[4] this is the point that I saw first.

He is following the points given by Azrael, right? But he is voting for Azrael. This totally screams out that Light knows that Azrael is town, and so follows his logic, but then ends up voting for Azrael

?

[MonkeyMan576]

YOu were talking to KoC in your post. I was talking about light in point 4.

Ok, my bad. Needless to say, we have a good number of people that are looking scummy(at least scummier than everyone else) at this point:

Lowell
Azrael
KoC
Light

[MonkeyMan576]

Ok, my bad. Needless to say, we have a good number of people that are looking scummy(at least scummier than everyone else) at this point:

Lowell
Azrael
KoC
Light

This is a useless list, and not just because I'm on it. You picked the only four people anyone is talking about and said you think they're slightly scummier than the people no one is talking about. What are you, the narrator?

I hate to say it, but I agree with Lowell.

You should at least say what you think of these people or your post is basically fluff.

Well, forgive me if I thought everything had already been said already. But if you want me to say it again I will:

Lowell - Latched on to Azrael after he wanted to out the cop.

Azrael - Wanted to out the cop.

KoC -FOSing people who are suspicious of him

Light-Kun - Agreeing with Azrael, then voting for Azrael.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm

really

not liking the meta-defense or meta-agression for Lowell.

People don't act the same in every freaking game. Meta is not a good enough reason to cause/prevent a lynch.

Meta may not be a good reason for a lynch, but it's better than lynching based on a random vote. At the least, it gives a clue into a persons pysche. But that being said, there's no time limit in this game, as far as I know, so we should make sure we lynch the person we want to.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote: Lowell
Vote: KoC

Why bother with forcing a lynch prematurely or relying on counting FOS's when we have a player that has been acting antagonistic the whole day?

Votecount:
Knight of Cydonia - 4 (Azrael001, Lowell, farside22, MonkeyMan576)
Lowell - 3 (super random dude, Knight of Cydonia, armlx)
Santos - 3 (ahaad, q21, Shanba)
Light-kun - 1 (Santos)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
MonkeyMan576 - 1 (Sun Tzu)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (-TinVision-)
Not voting: johhan, kuribo, sekinj, killa seven, PerArdua, alvinz95, Light-kun, BridgesAndBaloons
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

Antagonism =/= Scumminess, monkeyman.
Also, I'd suggest to you that that was a perfectly valid point I made about Azrael and Lowell chainsawing for each other, and that calling me antagonistic, with no evidence of any actual scummy play in your vote post, is a very weak reason for a vote - almost as weak as Lowell's "I'm voting for KoC because I want to defend someone I can't possibly confirm as town, unless I'm scum" vote.

Well, it's day one, so a weak reason for a vote is a lot better than no reason for a vote. Your play has been very anti-town so far, you've been far more worried about yourself than scum hunting, so I'm pretty comfortable with my vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, it's day one, so a weak reason for a vote is a lot better than no reason for a vote.

But a blatantly false reason is worse then no reason.

True, are you saying that you think KoC's behavior has been pro-town, nuetral, or anti-town?

[MonkeyMan576]

Honestly, I could go for either Lowell or KoC at this point. The reason I have my vote for KoC at this point is that Lowell just seems to be playing poorly, wheras KoC seems to be methodically trying to hinder the town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Honestly, I could go for either Lowell or KoC at this point. The reason I have my vote for KoC at this point is that Lowell just seems to be playing poorly, wheras KoC seems to be methodically trying to hinder the town.

What specifically gives you that impression?

All the FoS's that KoC has given for people that are voting for him, specifically. His overall attitutude, in general.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'll say it again, MonkeyMan, and try to listen - antagonism/attitude =/= scumminess.
Got that? And what's wrong with FoSing people who vote me weakly? Now stop trying to justify your chainsaw so weakly - if you can find some good reasoning behind it, I'll be happy to refute it - but right now, you seem to just be spouting the same crapola as Lowell and Azrael.

In my opinion, FoSing those that vote for you is almost always scummy. It's attacking the attacker, and it's a logical fallacy. You want attention taken off you, so you put it on the person attacking you, regardless of weather the person is helping the town or not. Lowell and Azrael had legitimate grounds to vote you, and to me the telling sign of scumminess is not necessarily how people vote, but how people respond to being voted on.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well most people would react a little badly to a poorly reasoned, opportunistic wagon, y'know?

More so if they are scum, since there are less scum than town. I second the call for a roleclaim.

[MonkeyMan576]

At L-8/7? Not while my bollocks hang in a loose fleshy sack, sir.
Oh, and thanks for completely ignoring all the points I raise and continuing a near-baseless attack on me, by the way.

Apparently anyone who attacks you is baseless or near baseless.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't see how asking for a roleclaim from KoC would be useful at all. If he's scum he'll claim vanilla townie, if he's a vanilla townie he'll claim vanilla townie and if he's a power role he'll claim vanilla townie. As people have said: There could be role blockers, more than one killer (which would override protection) or just no doctor.

I'm all for lynching KoC, he is distracting, he quotes people out of context to make his case and is overly antagonistic and emotional. Even if is isn't an anti-town role, his actions are anti-town enough that we would benefit from his death.

I have given my reasons more than once for voting for KoC, I am getting tired of my vote being dismissed as an OMGUS. It is not.

If he has a minor role he could prove his usefullness to the town and claim that, obviously a power role claim is of no help to the town. But the way he is playing I don't think he is a power role. The only reason I think he should roleclaim is that is what normally happens when someone is close to a lynch. Sure, he's a few votes away, but there seems to be a lot stronger opinion against him than anyone else. I'm anxious to see the opinions on those that haven't voted for him.

[MonkeyMan576]

If he has a minor role he could prove his usefullness to the town and claim that, obviously a power role claim is of no help to the town. But the way he is playing I don't think he is a power role. The only reason I think he should roleclaim is

that is what normally happens when someone is close to a lynch. Sure, he's a few votes away, but there seems to be a lot stronger opinion against him than anyone else.

I'm anxious to see the opinions on those that haven't voted for him.

Um, what?
People normally claim when they're close to a lynch, I'll grant you that, he is nowhere near a lynch. He's quite a bit further than "a few votes" away. If he was L-4 you could say a few votes, but as has been stated before, L-7 is ridiculous.

Stronger opinion on him? From whom? You obviously and yes a few others, but as a town it is pretty split between him and Lowell. With a couple of us saying that we are equally suspicious of them both. And yes, we are all anxious to see the opinions of those who haven't voted for him, that would be 17 of us actually. 5 people has decided he is ready to hang, so again to say that there is a lot stronger opinion to lynch him just is not true.

This post of yours seems absolutely ridiculous. And how would it help the town if he claimed a minor role? (BTW you have now insured that if he does claim a minor role no one will believe him even if he's telling the truth.)

If he claimed a minor role the town would know if it was a major role only setup, or if minor roles would be included, which would help us deduce the makeup of the game, including who is in the mafia. Information on the makeup of the game only helps the town.

[MonkeyMan576]

If he claimed a minor role the town would know if it was a major role only setup, or if minor roles would be included, which would help us deduce the makeup of the game, including who is in the mafia. Information on the makeup of the game only helps the town.

This is a terrible idea.

Secondguessing the mod will never help us, and will only help Mafia.

Are you a member of the mafia?

Trying to figure out the makeup of the game only helps mafia?

The way I see it, any information the town can get helps the town.

And I would think twice before alllying yourself with KoC.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not allying myself with anyone, I'm saying that his behavior is sometimes erratic or pointless.

Shame on you for trying to paint it as otherwise.


Let's take your argument to the logical conclusion. Mass-claiming.

Now, I think all of us would agree that a mass-claim on Page 1 is bad, bad, BAD, and only the stupidest and most retarded town would do that, because you've just given scum a handy blueprint of who they should NK and when.

Do you see why some information is best kept to oneself for as long as possible?

So basically you are saying that because he has acted anti-town in the past even though he was town, it's okay for him to act anti-town now.

I'm willing to consider this point, only because lynching a townie is obviously a undesirable result on any day. On day 1 it is more acceptable, because we don't have any night action information to go on, but it is still preferable to lynch scum, obviously.

I agree that mass claiming is bad for the town early in the game, because you don't want to give the mafia your power roles, because then your power roles would end up dead. But if someone is acting anti-town, there's nothing wrong with asking for a roleclaim. One role claim, or even three or four roleclaims, is not mass claiming. I believe that trying to determine the role makeup of the game is a very productive thing for the town to do, and this is how we play at my other mafia site, after we went through a mass claim stage and quickly discovered that it was producing undesirable results for the town.

And thanks for the rhetorical question about weather or not I know KoC is guilty. If I knew he was guilty(or innocent), I wouldn't have listed 4 players I thought were acting scummy(or at least scummier than other people), I would have focused just on him. The only reason I am engaging him at this point is because of his knee-jerk reactions to being attacked. Right now what I am trying to do is determine which of the four people I mentioned are acting scummiest, as well as consider new theories that others provide. So forgive me if it sounds like I am wandering a bit, I am just trying to work things out in my head.

[MonkeyMan576]

Did I say that? No. I said it's not inconsistent with my experience with him. He's a player who often makes an easy target for the scum to go after.

This makes no sense. You are saying that his anti-town behavior makes him an easy target for the mafia? Usually, in my experience, the town tries to root out those that are acting anti-town, and the mafia tries to focus on those that are acting pro-town and make it seem like they are acting anti-town. To me it seems fairly obvious that KoC is acting anti-town.

Wrong. It is an exercise in futility that leads to mod-guessing, role speculation, and outting power roles, NONE of which help the town. In fact, smoking out the cop / doc / vig / whatever is one of Mafia's goals in a closed setup, and to do what you suggest hands that to them.

A slippery slope argument, huh? If we ask for one person to roleclaim, then the risk of outing a cop or a doctor makes all roleclaiming a bad idea. Sure, it's possible a power role could be outed, but it's a lot more likely that someone's not a power role, just based on probability. Based on your theory, no one should EVER roleclaim. The fact is, information, while it can be useful to the mafia, is more helpful to the town. The town has NO information to start out with, while the mafia knows who is and isn't on each side. The town needs information in order to win, and there are different ways to acheive this. Asking for roleclaims is one of these ways, and the benefits of learning about what kind of roles are in the game, and the possible makeup of the mafia is certainly benefitial. Mod-guessing is also very much benefitial to the town. If the town can figure out what kind of roles would or wouldn't be in the game, then the town can consider this when people roleclaim in the future. The town can make a judgement on weather a roleclaim is plausible or not, and the only way they can do this is 1) information gained from dead players and 2) roleclaims. I feel it is preferable to have someone roleclaim rather than to just lynch them outright. At least if someone roleclaims we can decide if there are more or less likely to be town or scum.

Would you? Of course, the fact that you're the one trying to point this out makes such an argument null and void.

It doesn't do any such thing. An argument is just as valid no matter who is the one pointing it out.

Fixed quote tags.

[MonkeyMan576]

Ugh, worry about the bad formatting.

[MonkeyMan576]

sorry rather.

[MonkeyMan576]

Of course it makes it invalid. If you, the person in question, are the one pointing out that you would have taken a different action if you were scum, then I, not knowing your alignment don't know if you actually would have or not. And I don't trust you enough to take your word for it.

What I'm saying is that you can't point at something and say, "Oh, yeah, then why would I X?" Because the fact that you are the one pointing out that you are doing X means that you are aware of it. And thusly, if you're scum, aware of the fact that X would make a convenient excuse for behavior. Do you see, now? You may as well tell me, "I can't possibly have $10 in my pocket, why else would I buy a pack of gun for .50?" But buying a pack of gum doesn't mean that you don't also have $10 in your pocket. And the fact that you're the one pointing it out brings the statement to suspicion to begin with.

And, duhhhhh. Of course players who are anti-town even as town are easy targets for the mafia. When I've been mafia, I've gone after the easy lynch, too. It's what scum do when they're not stupid.

Well, of course me pointing out my behavior in my defence brings it into question, but I don't think it nullifies it. It's a valid point. The fact is I've been looking for scum in different directions, and I've been trying not to have tunnel vision on any one player. If I have to be obvious about pointing out my behavior, it's just because I want people to have a chance to see possible behavior patterns from more than just your perspective. And I wouldn't expect you to trust me on my word at this point. It's day 1 and I don't think we can say for certain that anyone is 100% town. Or even 75% town. But we need to lynch someone, eventually, and we may need to do so with less certainty than we'd like. I'm not asking for a speed lynch, far from it. I'm more than willing to talk things over and make sure we are sure about what we are doing. But right now, KoC is the most suspect at this point, in my opinion, and I'm not going to sugar coat it.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, role-fishing to me is pro-town if you are going after scum. And to me, KoC is the scummiest player so far. Yes, I want to know his role, to try and determine if it's likely that he's mafia or not. It seems to me like you are to set in your own ways of playing mafia and aren't willing to consider new ideas.

[MonkeyMan576]

As I said, role-fishing is only anti-town when you're going after scum. Figuring out what kind of roles are in the game helps the town and hurts the mafia's ability to fake roleclaim. And, as said before, the odds of uprooting a power role are slim. In my opinion, the town needs to actively try and obtain information, not wait for it to fall on their lap.

If I were going to defend or ally with someone, it would be someone who is pro-town, not someone who is acting anti-town. That you are willing to vote for someone for having different ideas about playing rather than someone who is acting anti-town is telling.

[MonkeyMan576]

when you're not going after scum, rather.

[MonkeyMan576]

when you're not going after scum, rather.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, if people are claiming as vanilla townie, and they are playing anti-town, it's better to lynch a scum or vanilla townie(whichever they happen to be) than a power role.

[MonkeyMan576]

Lying as a townie is anti-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's merely my opinion, based on my experiences playing mafia at other sites. Asking for appropriate roleclaims, which, as pointed out, is much different than mass claiming, can, and most often does, benefit the town. I can provide you the link to the specific games if you like.

[MonkeyMan576]

The issue is I'm reading your post, and it doesn't look like you are actually making a point in any direction.

My point is that role-fishing can be pro-town when done right.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, I don't know that he's scum, but he's certainly scum-my. I'd go with a consensus lynch on him, as well as a few others.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, I don't know that he's scum, but he's certainly scum-my. I'd go with a consensus lynch on him, as well as a few others.

This is also scummy. Pre-emptive bandwagon justification.

No, it's not. I don't need to justify my vote, as I've already stated my reasoning.

You guys are great.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, it's not. I don't need to justify my vote, as I've already stated my reasoning.

I was referring to the consensus lynch part on a few others. Basically leaves you open to wagon anyone.

No, just the four I've already mentioned and explained.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, just the four I've already mentioned and explained.

That is not what your post looks like as is, though your intent is now clear.

Hmmm, usually in my experience looking for scum is something townies do. I would think you would encourage it, not the other way around.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hmmm, usually in my experience looking for scum is something townies do. I would think you would encourage it, not the other way around.

Again with the completely non-relevant statements in an argument.

Well, considering you won't say exactly what you mean I wouldn't talk.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, just the four I've already mentioned and explained.

That is not what your post looks like as is, though your intent is now clear.

Hmmm, usually in my experience looking for scum is something townies do. I would think you would encourage it, not the other way around.

the secret here is that this is a thinly veiled attack against a logical question.

I'd bet my left nut you're scum.

Well, I'm not, here, you just have KoC, amrix, and you trying to trap me. I haven't done anything scummy. But feel free to lynch me if you want.

[MonkeyMan576]

I just don't see how posting who you think is scummy, why they are scummy, and then following up on it later is scummy. I'm looking for scum, which is a lot better than the lurkers.

I'm sorry if people don't like my playing style, think my posts are useless, distancing, opportunistic, what have you, but I'm used to playing in a a more loose evironment and not one where people treat every single thing you say like you have an alterior motive.

[MonkeyMan576]

I just don't see how posting who you think is scummy, why they are scummy, and then following up on it later is scummy. I'm looking for scum, which is a lot better than the lurkers.

I'm sorry if people don't like my playing style, think my posts are useless, distancing, opportunistic, what have you, but I'm used to playing in a a more loose evironment and not one where people treat every single thing you say like you have an alterior motive.

I'm gonna tell you a secret


SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PLAYING THIS GAME HAVE AN ULTERIOR MOTIVE.

I'm aware of that, which is why I'm suprised at being attacked for trying to find those people.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not minimizing, and you are trying to take what I say out of context.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not minimizing, and you are trying to take what I say out of context.

How?

Your defense is basically "boo hoo, I'm not used to this."

No, I'm admitting I need to watch the way I say things more carefully, but my behavior is still pro-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, I'm admitting I need to watch the way I say things more carefully, but my behavior is still pro-town.

Your defense is simply "No, I'm being pro-town". Not why, just IAMSTFU.

And a chainsaw defense (in the currently common use) is when player A is under pressure from player B and player C attacks player B on a weak basis, causing player B to go on the defense and stop attacking A. It is slightly indicative of a A-C grouping, more so depending on how loose the attack on B is.

I am being pro-town BECAUSE I AM LOOKING FOR SCUM, which is more than can be said for many players thus far.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkeyman, I have no way of seeing that fishing for Power Roles can be pro town when you "do it right." (maybe be paraphrased.)

Arguing that you're not scummy because you are scum hunting is a scum defense.

Your other defenses have not been much help to your cause, one of which has been called *and I agree with this* a "plea to emotion."

Seeing as how every point I would raise against you has been said, I feel no need to bring it all together, unless asked.

Vote Monkeyman

Additionally:

FoS Azrael

solely on the basis of the comment which was highlighted recently "I think we need to go ahead an lynch someone."

Only scum wish for day to end early.

Putting what I said out of context, much? I in know way said we should fish for power roles. In fact, I said the exact opposite, that inquiring about the roles of ANTI-TOWN players is productive, because the odds of hitting a power role is low, and it makes role claiming more difficult for the mafia, and the town learns about the makeup of the game, as far as what roles the mafia might have is concerned. Seriously, if you can't make up an actual case against me based on what I actually said, instead of taking what I say out of context, it does not help your case at all, in fact it makes you look like scum trying to get townies lynched, which is what started this in the first place, namely, me voting you for a solid reason, and then you attacking me for attacking you.

And scum hunting is not a scum defence. Your actions are what is scummy, namely pointing at those that are attacking you.

[MonkeyMan576]

Ignore the last two sentences, they were based on the assumption that it was KoC that was posting, not light-kun.

Votecount:
Knight of Cydonia - 4 ( Lowell, farside22, MonkeyMan576, Santos)
Santos - 4 (ahaad, q21, Shanba, BridgesAndBaloons)
Lowell - 3 (super random dude, Knight of Cydonia, armlx)
MonkeyMan576 - 3 (Sun Tzu, kuribo, Light-kun)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
Not voting: johhan, sekinj, killa seven, PerArdua, alvinz95, -TinVision-, Azrael001
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, KoC and Lowell are voting for me. Two of the people I pointed out as being anti-town. That should tell you something.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think KoC has been acting more pro-town of late, and Lowell has been acting pretty scummy with his comments, so:

Unvote

Vote: Lowell

[MonkeyMan576]

EBWOP - damn you simulposting. I find it convenient that Monkey suddenly happened to go for the only wagon that looked like gaining steam - apart from his own, of course.

Oh yeah, because voting myself would be so pro-town. Usually when wagon's gain steam it's for a reason, said player is acting scummy. But I'm tired of arguing with you, you obviously have tunnel vision on me, I'm going to concentrate on lynching a scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

So am I. Thanks for ignoring the fact that YOU LIED TO TRY AND MISLYNCH ME.
Scum No. 1 = MonkeyMan.
Be a hero, people.

I didn't lie, the votecount said you voted for me:shrug:. If that wasn't the case, my apologies.

[MonkeyMan576]

I call it as I see it, Lowell is acting the scummiest so far, although I am starting to regret it with your tunnel vision.

[MonkeyMan576]

Then why not put your vote back on me? Are you worried about what the town will think? Because only scum worry about what other townies think - townies just worry about lynching scum.
And for the last damn time, it's NOT TUNNEL VISION. You lied to try and get a mislynch on me, then instantly went volte-face when you saw the Lowell wagon looking like it might speed up. Not to mention the fact I've been voting Lowell for most of the day so far - the fact I've had to defend myself against your bullcrap isn't tunnel vision, it's a reflection of your tunnel vision on me until Lowell came into the firing line.

Don't blame a mod mistake on me. My vote on Lowell is genuine. And thanks for pointing out your suspicious behavior and that your tunnel vision is just a mask to avoid yourself getting lynched.

[MonkeyMan576]

1. It wasn't a mod mistake, it was a lie - I never voted for you until just now, so there was no way you could get confused - I FoSed you a way back, but never voted you. I even quoted the ballsed-up count when I reported it to the mod - that means there was TWO posts showing that I wasn't voting for you at any point (one after the mod fixed it)
2. WHere did I point out my suspicious behaviour/tunnel vision as a mask to avoid the lynch? Add deliberate misrep to your growing list of crimes.

You're taking what I say out of context. Claiming that I am worried about what the town thinks when I never said any such thing, and it is the furthest thing from the truth. I didn't lie about your vote, it's a matter of record, so there is nothing to lie about. I read the vote count and saw that you and Lowell had voted for me. If anyone is misrepping it's you. I didn't say you posted your suspicious behavior to mask a lynch, I said you did post that you had been accused of suspicious behavior, and that the tunnel vision on me was a mask to avoid getting lynched. Another misrep.

[MonkeyMan576]

Where is it a matter of record? You did lie about my vote - I've never voted you, mod-mistake or not. You didn't see that Lowell and I had voted you, because we hadn't! And the vote count never said that! I did post that I'd been accused of suspicious behaviour - that's not admitting to it, that acknowledging the accusation, however wrong it may be! I never said that my supposed tunnel vision was a mask to avoid getting lynched! Are you ever going to substantiate these wild claims with quotes, or are you going to keep digging a pit of lies?

I never said that you said you had tunnel vision and that it was as mask to avoid getting lynched. It was a claim on my part, and a true claim. Lowell did vote for me, and the vote count said you voted for me. It is not my responsibility to second guess the vote count. You are really fishing for scumtells here, and they're not sticking.

[MonkeyMan576]

The vote count NEVER said I was voting for you. I quoted the vote-count error when I asked the modd to fix it, and I've quoted it again on this page - it said I was voting for Lowell and myself. NOT YOU. I have never voted you, and the vote count has never said I was voting for you. I'm not fishing for scumtells, this is a scum tell - you lied to try and justify the vote you had on me at that point, and to encourage others to mislynch me.

It's not a point of weather the vote count actually was wrong or not. That's how I read it. Either the vote count was wrong and I was right, or the vote count was right and I was wrong. If the latter was the case, I apologized, and it's not very gracious of you not to accept the apology, and more indicative of your tunnel vision. You have plenty of other scumtells(attacking the attacker, tunnel vision) that I could use if I was trying to get you lynched, and the fact is that I was trying to make a case against Lowell, not you, because I was actually already considering changing my vote to Lowell at that point.

[MonkeyMan576]

Where does it say I have to accept your apology as if you're a confirmed townie? You're not, I think your scum, and the fact is, I have plenty of tells on you as well - you've ignored any points that don't suit your purpose, you've made a pile of crap attacks on me today, and this lie that you're trying to cover up now is just icing on a three-tiered wedding cake.

Well it's obvious that you're not going to change your opinion of me no matter what, even though I've showed flexibility in admitting you have been making more of an effort scum hunting(even if it is misguided tunnel vision on me). Right now I just can't decide if you're actually trying to look for scum, or if the reason you are focused on me is because you are scum and you know I'm town. As mafiawiki says, tunnel vision limits your ability to consider better options, and thus I am done arguing with you. I believe I've answered every argument you have, and it's still not good enough for you, so I am doing the best thing and moving on. If you continue to engage me I shall not respond.

[MonkeyMan576]

Let's take a look at the sequence of events, shall we?

1) Person A and B exhibits scummy behavior
2) I point out scummy behavior of Persons A and B
3) Person A backlashes at me for pointing out his scummy behavior
4) Person A and B votes for me for pointing out their scummy behavior
5) Person A successfully masks his scummy behavior by getting other townies to vote for me for pointing out person A's scummy behavior

Votecount:
MonkeyMan576 - 5 (Sun Tzu, kuribo, Light-kun, Lowell, Knight of Cydonia)
Santos - 3 (ahaad, Shanba, BridgesAndBaloons)
Lowell - 3 (super random dude, armlx, MonkeyMan576)
Knight of Cydonia - 2 (Kmd4390, magisterrain)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
ahaad - 1 (Santos)
Not voting: johhan, mykonian, killa seven, PerArdua, alvinz95, -TinVision-, Azrael001
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

By other townies I meant me and other players besides you, of course.

[MonkeyMan576]

Person A successfully masks his scummy behavior by getting other townies to vote for me for pointing out person A's scummy behavior

how do you know person A's a townie, when you say "getting other townies to vote?"

I didn't mean Person A was a townie, I meant, Person A successfully masks his scummy behavior by getting others to vote for me by pointing out person A's scummy behavior. Early in the game I usually refer to most everyone as "townies" because no one is proven townie or scum, but I should have said "players" to be more accurate.

[MonkeyMan576]

By other townies I meant me and other players besides you, of course.

Just because I think you're scum doesn't make me scum, dummy.

That sort of statement is

retarded

total OMGUS.

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about KoC, and I've already pointed out his scummy behavior. And I don't appreciate the name calling, if you can't have a conversation without being immature it doesn't speak much to your intellegence.

[MonkeyMan576]

I am the

town watcher

.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, I think it would be best to look elsewhere until I am proven guilty or my power is disproven, but if you want to lose the town watcher, that's up to you...

[MonkeyMan576]

I would think Lowell is the obvious scum at this point.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey's comment of "I don't know that either is scum" is scummy after an FoS on both, and vote on Lowell.

What I meant was, is that I can't prove that either is scum, but I think both are scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey, why is Lowell "obvious" scum?

He has been making ridiculous statements the whole game(I could list them if you want me to), but only when he's agreeing with someone else. In other words, not only is he not scum-hunting, but the statements he has been making are logically false, or at least, in some cases, questionable.

[MonkeyMan576]

MonkeyMan - what do scum have to gain through logically false statements?

Misleading the town to act in a way that leads to a scum victory, of course.

[MonkeyMan576]

And how often do you think that logically false statements convince a majority of a town of something?

I guess that depends on how smart the town is.:shrug:

[MonkeyMan576]

And how often do you think that logically false statements convince a majority of a town of something?

I guess that depends on how smart the town is.:shrug:

So if Lowell's logically false statements have not worked so far at misleading the town, what, do you think, is making him continue making logically false statements?

In these situations, to my mind, the simplest explanation is not that the player in question is devious scum misleading the town (even if we agree that Lowell's statements are logically false, which I'm pretty sure is not the case) but that they are people who haven't realised that their statements are logically false - and thus, the reason for them doing so is not linked to them being scum, and thus it is a nulltell.

I suppose that's possible. But it's also possible that they're not a cunning enough scum to realize that their statements are logically false.

[MonkeyMan576]

And how often do you think that logically false statements convince a majority of a town of something?

I guess that depends on how smart the town is.:shrug:

So if Lowell's logically false statements have not worked so far at misleading the town, what, do you think, is making him continue making logically false statements?

In these situations, to my mind, the simplest explanation is not that the player in question is devious scum misleading the town (even if we agree that Lowell's statements are logically false, which I'm pretty sure is not the case) but that they are people who haven't realised that their statements are logically false - and thus, the reason for them doing so is not linked to them being scum, and thus it is a nulltell.

I suppose that's possible. But it's also possible that they're not a cunning enough scum to realize that their statements are logically false.

Now you're not making sense. He said it's generally a null-tell since they are making a mistake.

Then you say it could be scum making a mistake.

That's what he's saying. They are making a mistake so it says nothing about their role.

Well, there's a difference between making an honest mistake, and making a scummy mistake. An honest mistake is a nulltell, a scummy mistake is a scumtell, obviously.

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS: KoC

- Hasn't said much since my rc, doesn't he think anyone else is guilty, or is he admitting his tunnel vision on me was scummy?

FOS: Light Kun

- Defending Lowell's scummy play with meta.

[MonkeyMan576]

FoS: Monkeyman

Not because you are FoS at all, because you are doing it about 17 pages after the fact.

I was a bit preoccupied with KoC before.

[MonkeyMan576]

Really poor logic, MP, to elaborate on LK's post, are you implying that the only players that ever participate on a townie lynch are mafia?

[MonkeyMan576]

Lowell - So you think long days are bad. Would you prefer players lynch the first scummy player that comes along and not consider their options?

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS: Magis

, would like to hear some opinions on Lowell vs. Magis as far as who is scummier, personally I think Lowell because he's been acting scummy the whole day wheras Magis just got here.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote
Vote: Mafiaplayer

Apart from his scumminess, I don't think I could put up with him for a whole game.

[MonkeyMan576]

personally I think Lowell because he's been acting scummy the whole day wheras Magis just got here.

So replacements can't be scum?!?

They can be, but it's easier to get a read on someone the longer they've played.

[MonkeyMan576]

i dont know, but i kinda have a strong feeling mafiaplayer is a cop

Either that or a jester.

[MonkeyMan576]

Not quite as bad as the last two posts, just because they were so terrible, but any time someone's about to get lynched, someone else says "He might be a jester", even though jesters are pretty darn rare; it's not helpful, really.

Jester's are pretty common at the forum where I usually play.

[MonkeyMan576]

Jester's are pretty common at the forum where I usually play.

Jester is the nut low. Punishes the town for correct play...

It's not a town role, it's an indy role like Survivor or Serial Killer. Not as bad as PGO or Beloved Princess.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote
Vote: Magis

I dont' think mafiaplayer is smart enough to lie about his role, and I don't like that Magis pushed him into roleclaiming.

[MonkeyMan576]

While I do think Magis is scum, I don't think you can blame him for mafiaplayer's stupidity.

I'm not blaming him for mafiaplayer, I just think Magis is scummy on his own, as I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for rc's from anti-town players with minor roles, but blatant power role fishing is definatley scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes, he was fishing and being scummy with his cop comment, but you say he "pushed mafiaplayer into roleclaiming". That part is mafiaplayer's own bad play.

I'm not saying it's not mp's bad play, I was just rationalizing why I was unvoting mp, despite mp playing poorly.

[MonkeyMan576]

As far as scum is concerned, I would look at the people that are at the end of the lynch or haven't voted yet, or are voting for other people that might be looking for a no lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

The chances of a No Lynch are poor.
We have too many seasoned players in this game to allow it, and enough players who aren't yet apathetic enough to let the game fester and stagnate to get a lynch to occur.

I'm not saying that the no lynch would actually happen, but it might be worthwhile to look at those that are on the minority votes or haven't voted to see who might be scum, as they may WANT a no lynch, weather it would happen or not.

Votecount:
magisterrain - 10 (Kmd4390, Lowell, Light-kun, MonkeyMan576, popsofctown, kuribo, magisterrain, Mafiaplayer, Vi, Azrael001)
MonkeyMan576 - 2 (Sun Tzu, Knight of Cydonia)
Lowell - 1 (armlx)
-TinVision- - 1 (Shanba)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (magisterrain)
Not voting: killa seven, CF Riot, alvinz95, -TinVision-, Yosarian2, BridgesAndBaloons
With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch

[MonkeyMan576]

Thanks for the game everyone, and I'm glad my side won even I got killed early:P