Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[Kreriov]

/confirm

[Kreriov]

Vote: Mufasa

Because my nice would kill me if she found out I didn't...

[Kreriov]

Um, was that a joke or are you serious dejkha?

I am new to the site so have no meta here. I have played before but not for awhile so I do not really remember all the specifics other than that I have been mafia twice and won and town maybe a half dozen times and won about half of those. Both times as mafia I was a plain goon. Even though I won both times I have been mafia, I do not think it was necessarily because of my play. In one, I was the sacrificial lamb to make the Godfather look even better. In the other, the town was simply horrible in my opinion.

Please continue the discussions! I find it the whole Kmd/Rin Twisted/Ac interaction interesting.

Rin Twisted, I am not so sure posting meta shouldn't matter. How is asking people to do that in order to provoke a reaction any different than say grilling someone over a random vote or failure to random vote? If it gets discussion going, it is good!

Kmd, do you REALLY think not wanting to post meta is a scum tell?

[Kreriov]

Sorry Kmd, I did not phrase that question properly. I was more interested in your thoughts on Rin's actual actions in this game, not really some philosophical position on if posting/not posting scum meta is particularly suspect behavior. The whole point is to get people to talk and evaluate them based on their actions. I was more interested in what you thought of her responses and people's reactions to them.

[Kreriov]

I think every post I have made is game relevent. There has been quite a bit of posting in the last 24 hours! Hell, I just logged on and have not even read pages 8 and 9. Most of which has been posted since I last logged on last night. At first glance most of it looks like meaningless drivel and rehashing. Some people do not like Empking, Empking thinks he is a great mafia player, hohum randomly questioning people, and so on.

I would second AWA and say attacking Empking is a waste of our time. I think we should go back and see which of hohum's question have been answered and which haven't and make sure they get answered.

I am currently out of town on my brother's laptop and will be able to do this myself much more effeciently when I am back in my office on Tuesday if no one else does.

[Kreriov]

Zwet, it really seems like you are voting for ZT simply because he said something you didnt like (that you were fairly inactive wether true or not). Also, what relavance do other games have to this one? ZT thinks I have not posted enough either. Maybe not. Do you consider your activity high because of number of posts only? Or do you take into consideration quality and relevance of post?

[Kreriov]

Well zwet, it does seem like a bunch of your posts are petulant, reactive, and essentially meaningless. This is a game and you are getting mad about some stuff that is not really all that important.

I am begining to see what many of you say about Empkings playstyle. The problem is, does this make him scum? (In game that is).

[Kreriov]

I mentioned that once Rin (that Empking's psychotic posting doesn't necessarily make him scum). However, it might. And wouldn't it just be brilliant. Either way, it does not matter. Empking is not helping the town with his actions so maybe we can learn something by upping the ante a bit. I am not so much interested in what Empking has to say but what others have to say when I put another vote on him. (Should be number 4 by my count.)

Unvote - Vote: Empking

I would also like to ask ztife what he considers 'lurking'. The whole argument with zwet was a bit distracting. I guess he did not say more about me because I did not engage him like zwet. I am not experienced in such a large game, but with so many people, it seems there would be more pages by now.

[Kreriov]

Well then Empking, by YOUR OWN REASONING, your accusation of me bandwagoning is nonsense and just gives everyone yet another reason to vote for you. Note I do not say suspect you. I no longer care. I simply think it is valuable to ramp up the pressure and generate more discussion from others. Frankly, if you want to help the town, I would just stop posting for awhile.

Your reasoning for accusing Ztife of bandwagoning is almost as weak. At best I would be concerned that Ztife is using this as an excuse to lynch a townie. However, it is my opinion that, assuming you are not mafia, it would actually be in the best interests of the mafia to keep you around.

Ztife, thank you for you answer. Much like posting scum meta, I think this gives all of us more info with which to work and discuss. Now I would like zwet to comment on your response if he would. I am interested in hearing his thoughts when not posting angrily or hastily as we saw in the recent back and forth between you two!

[Kreriov]

I don't know about that dejkha. My impression of Empking is he wants to win. Yeah, he might be pissed off at you or me or whomever but he wants to win. Claiming TRUTHFULLY is absolutely the very best thing he could do for the town. Perhaps the only thing left he can do to help the town.

[Kreriov]

Interesting twisting of words without actually going back and reading whole conversations there Kmd.

I am begining to see what many of you say about Empkings playstyle. The problem is, does this make him scum? (In game that is).

It's completely null. Doesn't make him scum, but doesn't give him a free pass either.

I mentioned that once Rin (that Empking's psychotic posting doesn't necessarily make him scum). However, it might. And wouldn't it just be brilliant. Either way, it does not matter. Empking is not helping the town with his actions so maybe we can learn something by upping the ante a bit. I am not so much interested in what Empking has to say but what others have to say when I put another vote on him. (Should be number 4 by my count.)

Unvote - Vote: Empking

"I said Empking wasn't scum for his actions, but his wagon is gaining steam. I'll vote him now."

I vote for Empking with clear reasons. Trying to cast my vote as a bandwagon move is simply not true.

As for your other little attempt to twist words -

I don't know about that dejkha. My impression of Empking is he wants to win. Yeah, he might be pissed off at you or me or whomever but he wants to win. Claiming TRUTHFULLY is absolutely the very best thing he could do for the town. Perhaps the only thing left he can do to help the town.

You think Empking wants to win and wants to help the town meaning he is town, and you are voting him? DIESCUMDIEDIEDIE

again, it will not work. While I do think Empking is scum, as I have stated, it simply does not matter any more if I am wrong. He is not helping the town. If he claims, great. It means more debate and more information for the town. If he gets lynched and it turns out I was wrong and he really is town, well, no big loss and again, it gives us more info.

Maybe it doesn't look that way to you and maybe you are simply scum trying to draw attention away from Empking, but MY intention was to make it clear that I was not bandwagonning. I intended to make it clear that I consider Empking scum, and even if it turns out that Empking is town, that the info we can gather by either lynching him or getting him to claim is worth it.

[Kreriov]

Almost a whole page of posts since I last checked so I will include the relevant quotes from the Kmd post I am replying to.

Not what I was looking at. You said Emp didn't look scummy before and just as other's jump on him, he's scummy now? Or not even that he's scummy, but he "might" be scum and isn't helpful. I don't like the reasons to vote or the timing of it.

This is a lie. I did NOT say Emp did not look scummy. I basically said his play is so chaotic and uninformative that it could be scummy or it could just be him being stupid. I made no real judgment one way or the other in the early posts to which I think you refer. Again, DO NOT TRY TO TWIST MY WORDS!

I can point out numerous 'scummy' actions by Empking. OMGUS voting is one. Almost no posting and definitely no posting of any substance. Have you looked at some of his posts? Is there even one with more than 2 sentences that are not quotes? Declarative statements with no reasoning or even context, i.e.

Agressive playstyle =/= insultng people so you don't have to do anythng.

Zwet, KMD are town. You're scum.

Where is the reasoning? At one point he says he made a short case. WHERE? In a one line post insulting dejkha?

His continued distraction to the town. That whole OMGUS that is STILL going on is beyond stupid.

Normally I would consider all that scummy behavior. AS I SAID, the only reason I would consider giving all that a pass is because people who have played with Empking before say, well, that is his play style. I never said I did not think he was scum. I said I was not sure. Sorry, I do not care if that is his play style. If it makes him look scummy, well, if it looks like a mafia and it smells like a mafia and it will help the town to assume he is a mafia, well, guess what, I am bringing the rope and serving him spaghetti for his last meal.

I have yet to see a good case on Empking. If he is town, what "info" exactly will you take from his flip. NOBODY ELSE ANSWER. I WANT KRERIOV'S ANSWER TO THIS.

Well, I have already gotten quite a bit of info. For one, the fact that he has gone so long at L-2 is VERY interesting. If he were town, the mafia has had a very good opportunity to lynch with little or no risk or even put him at L-1 and hope a townie finishes him off. Also, look at the interaction between dej and zwet. zwet is looking a bit scummy there. Finally, YOUR actions in particular are very interesting Kmd. You continually try to twist my words. You come to Empkings defense instead of allowing him to speak for himself. I would say that putting my vote on Empking has already generated quite a bit of info.

Should he be lynched, well, what info do you normally get out of a lynch? You see who voted for him and hopefully why they say they did and who didn't vote for him and why. Who defended him (YOU) and who just laid low. hohum and ztife are both voting for him and hohum in particular has been very quiet about it. Ztife put him at L-2, why is he not bandwagoning? Why have you focused on me? Depending on Empking's actual alignment I would be interested in knowing why. The info I would gain is more context to peoples actions or inactions based on the now known fact of Empkings true alignment.

[Kreriov]

Read it and also please let us all know why you are subtly trying to imply Ztife WANTS to lynch a townie over a scummie. I am getting tired of you putting words in peoples mouths. I refer to this part of your post.

I'll just describe this point as being a useless

townie

.

How do you know he is town? And why wouldn't you prefer to lynch scum?

In no way does Ztife say he wouldn't prefer to lynch scum. This is the same sort of thing you have been trying to do to me. I DO NOT KNOW if Empking is scum or town. I BELIEVE him to be scum but am willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong. Is there a reason you keep defending Empking so vigorously? Is he incapable of speaking himself? THAT is the one thing almost everyone voting or who had a vote on Empking wants, him to actually speak and you keep interfering.

[Kreriov]

No, you need to stop being a fool and realize that dejkha considers voting for someone because you are pissed off at them as OMGUS. I guess you could say dejkha is more interested in the spirit of the 'law' than the letter. Do you understand now?

It doesn't matter is she is correct or not. Every other person in this game understands exactly what dejkha means when accusing you of OMGUS voting. Your failure to understand this fact , accept it, and continued pointless posting is just more fuel for the fire. Or rope for the hanging if you prefer.

[Kreriov]

Yeah, that vote was completely out of nowhere. I definitely would like to hear why Mufasa cast that vote as well as why he has not been part of the discussion at all.

There are actually quite a few lurkers out there and with Kmd going to be V/LA for a bit, it is even more important that we get more participation.

[Kreriov]

No, he is not Kmd. Its not just his so called playstyle. He has no logic. He makes declarative statements with little or no support. Any logic you may attribute to most of what he says you provide for yourself. When you Empking says XX and YY are scum but ZZ and AA are town and that is all, there is no logic. Even when pressed he has no logic. When he says XX is scummy because of OMAGUS voting he doesn't try to explain WHY he considers whatever is OMAGUS voting. Its almost like he goes through the wiki and finds a term that describes something scummy and simply says, well, that person did it. Frankly, most of Empkings limited posts and actions are the definition of scummy. Specifically, casting suspicion with little or no reason, distracting, OMGUS, and bandwagonning.

And yes, I do agree with you that Mufasa has been lurking so yes, he is a bit scummy. But not as much as Empking. Frankly, I think empking is a mafia. Find someone more obvscum than Empking and I will move my vote.

[Kreriov]

Thank you for the clarification. No matter which way Empking flips, I do not have a read on Kmd.

[Kreriov]

What part of ''claim please' was not understood Empking? Personally I think you are unable to come up with a credible lie. I do not believe you are a townie. I expect you to get hammered before much longer. NOT claiming right now is simply yet another scum tell in my opinion.

[Kreriov]

I am asking, no begging, anyone who is not currently voting for Empking right now to watch his next response after this post. If it is not a role claim, HAMMER HIM. I encourage everyone not currently voting for him to post and say that that is exactly what you will do if he does not claim.

[Kreriov]

Wow, no night kill. That is fantastic! Kudos to the doc and/or the jailkeeper for a job well done.

Ok, to start the ball rolling for day 2, here is the list of people who voted for Empking.

hohum
Kreriov
Ztife
Mufasa
hewitt
dejkha
ac1983fan

I personally do not have much of an opinion on any of them except Mufasa and possibly hohum. I really think that hohum has been lurking, but I do not consider that in and of itself enough to classify him as scum yet. Mufasa, on the other hand, has been lurking and his vote was simply way to suspicious for me to let pass.

Therefor...

Vote: Mufasa

Those who diid not vote for Empking are:
Kmd4390
Maadneet
zwetschenwasser
SpyreX
VP Baltar

Of those, I would like to see some posting by our new replacements, SpyreX and VP Baltar in particular. As for Maadneet, I think he has participated less than anyone and that overtime vote for Empking, I just do not get it.

[Kreriov]

Point to Dejhka.

Its been a full day since ZazieR reopened the thread and only four of us have posted. Troublesome.

Anyway, why do you feel you needed to say you would have hammered Empking there zwet? Do we really care? Much like Madneet putting in that overtime vote on Empking, I find both actions very suspicious.

[Kreriov]

If I had been around for Emp's lynch, I would have hammered.

Why did you post this? Is that clearer?

Madneet did something similar by posting a vote against Empking AFTER Empking had been already received. Here is the quote since you obviously cannot be bothered to follow the thread and back references to it.

This post is a bit late, but whatever.

Unvote
Vote: Empking

[Kreriov]

Sorry dejkha, for some reason I thought it was zwet asking to make it clearer and dodging the question.

Still, I find both these posts to be suspicious.

The questions I would like discussed by the group in general would be:

Why would Madneet want to post a vote for Empking after he had been hammered but BEFORE we knew his alignment?

Why would zwet make a point of saying he would have hammered Empking had he been around, but AFTER we knew Empking was town? (And that a night kill was prevented)

[Kreriov]

Well, that sure was a long post there VP. How bout I sum it for you in a few sentences.

Lets see, you basically say that my vote was based on the fact that I don't like his play style. Fair enough, but despite the length of the post, it doesn't go far enough.

Its not that I didn't like his play style, its that I consider his play style a hindrance to the town. I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or not, but I thought it might be. If I was right, its a bonus, if not, I still think the town is better off without him. You missed the part where when he was up to 5+ votes, I was convinced he was scum because he refused to claim.

What I find interesting is how first Hewitt and now you have tried to cast the voting against Empking as so chaotic we can get no info out of it. That in and of itself is info. I think there are other suspicious votes as well, particularly Mufasa. Is there a reason you have not addressed that vote?


For the record, I will leave any queue I am in if Empking joins it and will not join any queue in which Empking has already joined. I hope this was my first and last game with him ever.

[Kreriov]

My read on Dej is neutral. I think it very obvious that dejkha dislikes Empking and considers him not just useless but a direct hindrance to the town. What I am having a problem doing is discerning if dejkha is using that obvious dislike to hide behind in pushing a lynch on Empking. I do find dejkha's dismissal of madneet and zwets 'I really wanted to be on the Empking lynch team' posts concerning. Those posts were made for a reason and dejkha almost dismisses them out of hand.

As for wanting Empking to claim, he should have. It is the pro-town thing to do in my opinion. Refusing to do so after repeated and reasonable requests to do so simply made the case in my book. In particular I was afraid I was wrong and that he was the doc or jailkeeper.

As for any other questions you may or may not have asked me, well, please restate them clearly. Maybe on won line without insults. For example, the following seems rhetorical

What info have we gained after this bungled lynch of Emp, in your opinion, other than you and dej potentially being scum?

Fixed the quote tags

If you really want an answer to that question, ask it without the snide insinuation. Your other questions are all in the same vein. There might be a question mark at the end of some of you sentences, but the answer is already a forgone conclusion in your mind given the context.

Saying I am deflecting attention is flat bullshit. YOU keep doing so. We have concrete votes and concrete actions and yet you parse words and continually sling mud.

And yes, I have probably missed some questions. Ask them straight out instead of burying them in a page long barely coherent post and I will answer them.

Along those lines, here are some questions I think need answered. Clearly and without any surrounding blather.

Why did Kmd focus on me when Ztife and Mufasa put highly suspicious votes on Empking?

Why did Madneet and zwet go out of their way to say they to wanted to be in on the Empking lynch?

Why are we not questioning Ztife and Mufasa more closely about their votes?

Why is hewitt and now VP Balter trying to say there is no info to be had from those voting for and against Empking?

Why does dejkha blithly dismiss madneet and zwets post lynch bandwaggoning?

[Kreriov]

You are correct hewitt. I should have phrased that question better. Here is exactly what you said.

The problem to me with an Empking lynch is that it's hard to tell whether scum or town were on the wagon. Here's kind of the possibilities that everybody falls under.

ON THE LYNCH
Town players- Sick and tired of Empking and afraid to keep him around later in the game.
Scum players- Easy lynch for them, all they basically have to do is hop on and wait for the votes to accumulate.

OFF THE LYNCH
Town players- Not convinced that Empking was scum and don't agree with the policy lynch.
Scum players- Going to turn around and point fingers at those who were on the lynch for lynching a townie.

Now the question would be who falls in which category and why?

Your right, you did not say there was no info. The effect, however, is that there is no info. I mean, at what point are you going to actually try and determine who is in what category? When are you going to post about who you think is in what category and why? In effect you have set up the process of looking at the vote and determining who is scum and who is town as almost impossible. I do not know if that is intentional or not, but that is the effect. In VP Baltar's case it seems he is deliberately pushing the idea that there is no info to be gained from Empking's lynch, to which I disagree.

[Kreriov]

Now for Kreriov:

Why does it not matter if Emp was town or scum? Two mislynches in this game and town could be in lylo...that's a bad thing. If it was a policy lynch, do you think that the town should policy lynch Zwet right now since they have similar posting styles?

No, I do not think the town should policy lynch Zwet. His posting style might be similar to Emps but he is not actively hindering the town, which, in my opinion, Empking was.

What info have we gained after this bungled lynch of Emp, in your opinion?

There I amended the question so I'm not calling you scum. Please answer now.

Actually, I have answered this and it remains the same. I found Mufasa and Zrtife's votes to be suspicious, particularly Mufasa. I found Madneet and Zwets actions post lynch to be suspicious. That is the info. I continue to dislike your 'bungled' characterization. Why was it bungled? Simply because he turned out to be town? By that definition, sure. However, the first lynch in almost every game is a townie basically because the first lynch is a guess. From that lynch you gain hard facts. Specifically, the victims alignment. You also have voting records. You continue to belittle and dismiss all this information by continually hammering at me and dejkha. I don't mind that, actually, other than the fact that you seem to be ignoring others who, in my opinion, have done (or not done in the case of lurkers) suspicious things. It is almost like you attack me simply because I have actual posting history for you to dissect. THAT is just one reason why I say you are deflecting. I try to answer legit questions and try to bring up legit concerns about real actions and you continually dismiss them.

What else has Mufasa done that you think is scummy? What other suspects do you have?

See above for other suspects. (Though add dejkha to the list as well. Again, I am not sure whether or not he is using his dislike of Empking to hide behind.)

As for Mufasa, coming out of nowhere and voting for Empking with literally no explanation. When called on it, STILL no explanation. The continued lurking. Has he actually made a single post with substance?

This is a lie. I did NOT say Emp did not look scummy.

I basically said his play is so chaotic and uninformative that it could be scummy or it could just be him being stupid.

If Emp did not look scummy, then why the hell was your vote there?

I asked this because you were trying to say it could be either scummy or "him being stupid". You can't have it both ways in this game, so if you had doubts why vote instead of looking for someone you were more sure of?

I think some quotes are crossed here and this is either deliberate twisting of words or you don't understand the double negative in the very first sentence of the quote. Again, I said Empking looked scummy. I never said he did not look scummy. As for WHY he looked scummy, I did have doubts as to whether it was me misreading his stupidity or a solid read. As I stated, in the end, I did not care. My doubts were dwarfed by the conviction that Empking was actively hindering the town. Frankly, Empking completely failed to try and answer questions or respond to requests. He completely failed to tunderstand what people were saying, I thought deliberately. That reads scum to me.

Your reliance on "anti-town" play (subjective) and OMGUS is a pretty damn weak argument. I'll give you that you are newer to the site so maybe you haven't seen many games, but I don't really feel like OMGUS is any sort of damning evidence. In some cases it might even be legitimate. Think about it this way, if you know you are town and someone builds a weak case on you, should you not believe that that person has a chance of being scum?

Um, should I be asking the same question of you? But again, even if you think I am scum, does that mean you do not answer questions or refuse to comply with the wishes of the majority even when expressed by that scum? Pretty much everyone wanted Empking to claim when he reached L-2 and L-1 and HE DID NOT! That was the clincher for me.

There might be a question mark at the end of some of you sentences, but the answer is already a forgone conclusion in your mind given the context.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. If I believe you're scum and you're town, then simply answer my questions and prove me wrong. I'm a reasonable person. I promise. Simply refusing to answer questions because you think I'm being brief with you just looks like scum deflecting questions though.

Actually, there is no burden of proof on me. I answer your questions because I believe it is helpful to the town. No one else has chimed in and asked me to answer your questions. Frankly, I think the people who have been lurking are happy to see us go at it and be ignored. I will AGAIN say this is one reason why I say you are deflecting. There are concrete actions that need to be explored and yet you continually ask me to reiterate the same answers, always twisting just a little bit to make it seems like you are asking new questions or to seem like I am changing positions or something. At some point it has to stop.

Saying I am deflecting attention is flat bullshit. YOU keep doing so.

How so?

See various responses above, particularly the last one. I have not once asked you to stop questioning me. I want to make sure the town understands I have concerns and they should have concerns other than yours.

Why did Kmd focus on me when Ztife and Mufasa put highly suspicious votes on Empking?

you're not above suspicion. Kmd, Spyrex and I all think your vote is questionable. The others will come when each person feels the need to question them

Why did Madneet and zwet go out of their way to say they to wanted to be in on the Empking lynch?

I don't remember Madneet saying this. Agree Zwet should answer this question

Why are we not questioning Ztife and Mufasa more closely about their votes?

see above. stop deflecting.

Why is hewitt and now VP Balter trying to say there is no info to be had from those voting for and against Empking?

never said this and I don't believe hewitt did either, please quote if I did. The only think of is when I said that the lynch left limited information because it was pushed as a "policy lynch"

Why does dejkha blithly dismiss madneet and zwets post lynch bandwaggoning?

can't answer that one

Never said I was above suspicion. Pointing out that you refuse to explore other suspicious behavior is not deflecting. It is a sincerely expressed concern that you are pushing an agenda and frankly, not really addressed at you. Either you accept my answers or you do not. I want to make sure everyone else understands there is more out there to discuss that should not be ignored.

As for the no info, that has more to do with your actions and attitude. You downplay Empking's lynch as 'policy'. You characterize it as 'bungled'. You continually attack me and do not even bother to explore other areas of suspicion, dismissing them as my attempt to deflect. Sorry, that does not hold water. I answer and explain, probably to much, and yet you continue to question me. Continue to do that all you want, all I am saying and have been saying is do not let your focus on me lead you to disregard so much. It seems you are only now starting to see how many of the others are failing to contribute.

Oh yeah, madneet. If you look at just his posts, it would be post number 3. That's right, he has a total of 3 posts. His third post is a vote for Empking AFTER enough votes were reached for a lynch. He even realizes this and says so in his post. Why? There must be a reason. Dejkha basically says this is a null tell, with which I also disagree.

I just want to hear much more input from everyone else and have posed questions to that affect. YOU are deflecting because you do not acknowledge this fact. There is absolutely no reason why YOUR questions should have any precedence over mine ESPECIALLY when I have gone to great pains to answer your questions. Give others a chance to participate or help get them to participate.

[Kreriov]

I was convinced he was scum because he refused to claim.

Do you think claiming is a good idea for vanillas?

Yes, I do.

As for wanting Empking to claim, he should have. It is the pro-town thing to do in my opinion. Refusing to do so after repeated and reasonable requests to do so simply made the case in my book.

In particular I was afraid I was wrong and that he was the doc or jailkeeper.

Your posts don't reflect the bolded at all.

What I am I supposed to do, say ok Empking, claim if you are doc or jailkeeper only? First, you are taking this a bit out of context. That was a response to a question from VP about why I wanted Empking to claim. Second, that is WHY I was so frustrated that he didn't claim, it just made the lynch more nerve wracking to me. If he said he was vanilla I do not know what I would have done, but at the very least had he actually claimed I would have had second thoughts about lynching him. He was at L-1 and knew it. I was not the only one requesting him to claim. Claiming benefits the town for the simple fact it creates yet another point of discussion and yet HE FAILED TO DO SO. Instead he just kept up his inanity.

Why are we not questioning Ztife and Mufasa more closely about their votes?

Funny thing about the game of mafia. You have the power to question anyone you want. If you want to question them, do it.

So me continually pointing out their suspicious votes and continued silence on the matter is ME not questioning them? Bullshit. I continue to not only sound the trumpet but place my money where my mouth is by placing my vote on Mufasa. What answer do I get? Oh, sorry I have really posted, I will get back to you in a bit. Even if you find my vote more suspicious, you ADMIT you find their votes suspicious as well and yet you do not back me up in trying to get information out of them.

As an aside: Remember not too long ago when I was talking about with the whiny slap-fights being counterproductive? See these two posts above? Thats almost a textbook example.

Yep. Definitely annoying to read..

Really, and yet you do nothing to take the discussion in any new direction even when it is pointed out you are not even attempting to run down your own stated suspicions.

No, I do not think the town should policy lynch Zwet. His posting style might be similar to Emps but he is not actively hindering the town, which, in my opinion, Empking was.

This is actually very interesting to me. Please explain the difference in detail.

Well, lets see. While he does get into childish fights, he is not nearly as dogged and determined to continue them. He does not continually post links to an OMAGUS definition. I do not think he deliberately tries to 'misunderstand' the spirit of OMAGUS and argue of the definition. (At first I thought Empking was deliberately doing so to be distracting and obstructionist. Given his revealed affiliation I now just think Empking is a twit.) He doesn't sit there posting 'Active Lurking' every time someone posts. He may or may not claim if we put more pressure on him, so that is a wash for now. He doesn't just post that X and Y are 'definitely scum' with no explanation and with no attempt to get into a discussion about it. He doesn't just post inanity when on the brink of being lynched, or at least we don't know that yet. He seems to actually be trying to understand what others are saying and meaning, even if he reacts childishly to some things.


So, once again, here are the questions:

1 - Mufassa, you failed to post any reason for your Empking vote after lurking for days. Explain.

2 - Kmd and VP in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on these actions.

3 - Ztife - same as item 1.

4 - same as item 2.

5 - Madneet - What was your motivation to post a spurious and unnecessary vote for Empking? At that point he was already lynched.

6 - Kmd and Vp in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on Madneets motivation.

7 - Zwet - What was your motivation for saying you would have hammered Empking when Day 2 started?

8 - Kmd and VP in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on Zwets motivation.

9 - Dejkah - Why do you think these actions are not relevant and a null tell as you put it? They obviously had reasons to do so and forcing them to express that motivation is yet another way to get people more involved and talking yet you dismiss them out of hand.

[Kreriov]

Ok, this is in response to kmd's post (641) so be patient as I go through more posts.

5 - Madneet - What was your motivation to post a spurious and unnecessary vote for Empking? At that point he was already lynched.

6 - Kmd and Vp in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on Madneets motivation.

Looks like he thought Emp needed to be lynched (I'm trying to figure out if he thought Emp was scum. Looks that way to me.) and posted a vote not knowing he had already been lynched.

Ah, but that is the thing. Here is the post (521) where Madneet posted his late vote.

This post is a bit late, but whatever.

Unvote
Vote: Empking

I think this shows Madneet is very much aware that his vote occurs in twilight. All he had to do is read the last 4 or 5 posts in the thread before posting this to know Empking had been hammered. Like mufasa, he comes out of nowhere and wants to make sure everyone knows he supposedly wants to be in on Empkings lynch. Sure, maybe its just a little thing, but when someone does something that is completely unnecessary, i.e. knowingly casting a vote AFTER the hammer vote, it is done for reason. To appear town? To confirm town? To appear not to be lurking? What? I do not know and think discussion is warranted.

[Kreriov]

Ah, looks like madneet responded and very reasonably in my opinion. Thank you.

[Kreriov]

Oh, and hewitt, all I can say is it is a very comprehensive post and I, for one, will be returning to it for reference frequently. I suggest everyone else reread it at least once as well.

[Kreriov]

Yes, that puts Mufasa at L-3 by my count. L-2 is just about my tolerance for trying to get someone to talk, so should he get there, I would request that no one put him at L-1 until Mufasa actually posts something substantial or I have a chance to post and/or remove my vote. (I say this because my access to the game is limited in the evening hours and on the weekends.)

[Kreriov]

I must say, some of the hohum speculation is catching my attention. I completely missed how he started up cases against others and sort of dropped them. It is almost as if he knew there was a good chance Empking would be lynched, so he put his vote there and left it there completely flying underneath the radar this whole time. As was pointed out, his few posts begin cases on people and are never followed up. This is actually what I find curious. By beginning to develop actual cases, his posts have actual content so even though his participation is low, he does not appear to be lurking. It also provides a platform to continue developing cases against people later on. For that record, I will therefor put up a

FOS: hohum

I also wanted to point out something else suspicious. Zwet bolded a vote for mufasa. What I find interesting is he did not UNVOTE before doing so, so his vote should have remained on Dejkha per the rules requiring an unvote. No need to reply to this zwet as I am sure you will say it was a mistake. I am pointing it out to ask for speculation on this action by everyone else.

Finally, I am still very unsatisfied with mufasa's responses. Ok, so you are a student with little time. (For my part this statement is actually suspicious as I think students, particularly college students, seem to have MORE time than married, working stiffs for games.) He still hasn't really made his opinions, suspicions, etc. known. I find his vote for dejkha to be very suspicious. He accuses dejkha of going for the 'easy kill', but is that not what he has done as well? He put Empking at L-2 with no explanation and has now put dejkha at L-3 with not much more explanation.

[Kreriov]

I don't think so Baltar. RL obligations taking up a few days are one thing. Not having 15 or 20 minutes to make a substantial post in over a month is another. If he is that time strapped he should request a replacement.

And once again belittling, sorry, 'speculation is that you could be scum reaching', any suspicions or questions I might have is in and of itself 'scummy'. I am not deflecting. I am not reaching. I have and will continue to post my thoughts and try to start discussions exactly as I should despite your continued opposition to keeping multiple lines of discussion open. There is absolutely no reason I cannot keep up a little pressure on a suspicious and lurking Mufasa while following other lines of inquiry. YOUR continued attempts to control discussion direction and stifle multiple or alternative lines of inquiry are starting to get old.

[Kreriov]

Ah, crossed posts. Thank you mufasa, that is a considered and substantial post. I hope you are able to continue your participation. I guess my next question would be to ask you to build a case against someone whom you are suspicious. For example, other than Dejkha's tone and style, what specifically decided you to put your vote there?

[Kreriov]

I have absolutely no problem with you focusing on me. What I DO have a problem with is every single time I answer your questions completely and honestly then go on to other topics you accuse me of deflecting and reaching. I feel that is a deliberate attempt to discredit anything I have to say and I am calling you on it. You say 'be my guest' as if I need your permission. I do not. You act like you are open and receiving to all points of view and yet you try to discredit MY points by mischaracterizing them as attempts to deflect or reach. This it patently untrue. That is ONLY problem I have with your focus on me. Sling mud all you want, but do not try to use that mud to muddy what I have to say that is not a direct response to your concerns about me or questions to me.

[Kreriov]

Just noticed Mufasa was at L-1. I need to catch up since my last post so for now

unvote

[Kreriov]

Wow, this game just gets worse and worse.

And Camn, are you kidding me?

ANd now, christ! A brand-new green newb does something brilliant.. and you guys lynch him for it.
Mufasa, I salute you.
If you hadn't gotten counterclaimed...... you could have drawn the nightkill easily. That was your plan, right? Get killed, taking one for the town, and get out of this insane game? Hmph.

Really? He OUTED OUR DOC and you are making excuses for him? First we have deal with Empking, then Mufasa, and now you want us to believe Mufasa's brilliant plan for claiming to be the doc was to get nightkilled? Come on.

And how about this

And now, poor KMD. We were on the same side for once.... and you are already dead

or this

So far it makes me want to claw my eyes out.

or this

A little stream-of-consciousness, please forgive me.. . but I couldn't read it all without wanting to die.

Could you POSSIBLY be any more blatant about trying to establish yourself as a solid townie without a single bit of proof or by any actual actions?

As for the guy you replaced, well, talk about lurking. Until he completely stopped posting, his posting could be the the definition of trying appear like he was participating but not really participating.

Vote: Camn

As for everyone else, does anyone have any idea as to why Madneet is still alive?

Quote tags fixed. Kreriov, you have to use " instead of ' for using quote tags

[Kreriov]

I have to go with Baltar on this one. I missed that the JK both protects and roleblocks.

VP, if I were not voting for Camn, my 2nd and 3rd suspects would be dejkha and SpyreX. SpyreX really seems to be willing to vote for either mufasa or madneet, doesn't really matter which. Pretty much the same for Dejkha.

[Kreriov]

Um, do you want to reconsider your post there SpyreX? Lets see, I say I suspect you because it seems to me you really didn't care which got lynched, just that one did. Your defense is I was willing to vote for either of them because one should have been scum? To everyone else, have you REALLY thought of the implications of a townie falsely claiming to be scum? SpyreX, as scum you would KNOW that neither of the two were scum, so OF COURSE you would be willing to vote for either. That's exactly the point. You voted and shifted your voted and kept going to whom it looked like it would be easier to lynch. You didn't seem to really be trying to sort anything else out. Basically, I think I see motive and reason for your actions, specifically that you are scum. I could be wrong, those are my thoughts though.

And sorry Camn, but, again, just stop now. I love how you just throw out OMAGUS as if people cannot read. If nothing else, the long and detailed grilling I have received from Baltar is ample evidence that I do not lightly place my vote or he would have mine now and with good reason. I vote for you for a reason and the reason is your first post in game stinks. Your entire post is designed to try to elicit sympathy and show empathy with the town and nothing else. Even your FOS is just weak. Lets see, FOS for wagon analyzing? Excuse me? On Day 2 there were exactly 3 concrete data points. The course of the vote on Empking, Empking's affiliation, and the fact that there was no night kill. What exactly am I supposed to analyze, tea leaves? And now you want try and cast Mufasa's idiotic action as some type of gambit instead of rank stupidity? The single biggest asset any townie has going for them is the simple truth. Mufasa wasted that asset and you try to praise him for it.

As for Baltar, well, isn't isn't it so nice of you to continue to try and be the arbiter from on high of who might be scummy or not. You mis-characterize and belittle people to try and make your arguments more powerful. You say things like 'both of them essentially said my cases were crap and there did not merit much of a response'. Again, um, did you miss the part where so many people are tired of the constant back and forth between us PRECISELY because I try answer every question, even ones I feel are designed to try and obfuscate others action, as completely as I can?

Just realize that I really am not writing any of this for you, because it is nor for you to decide. After all, really, you say I am scum or a new, and that is all? No, you do not get to decide that. You seem like a fairly smart guy, one who is well aware that once you state that there are only two choices, if not challenged, it gets into peoples subconscious and if you repeat it enough it almost becomes fact. That's ok though, because by just pointing this out people now know they have more than 2 choices. Just like my not being afraid to state my opinions and point out when you seem to be oblivious to them just makes them stand out all the more. Of course, this is not the first time you have done this, doubt it will be the last. Just do not get caught up in your own little world and fail to actually try to analyze actual facts.

[Kreriov]

Sorry to post again so soon, but I just can't get over Camn and now Baltar somehow think Mufasa false claiming to be doc was good or could have been good. At least Baltar says it debatable. It is debatable and should be debated. So here is my position. It was flat stupid for the following reasons:

It is day 2 and we had only lost one townie at that point. The chances of the doc getting night killed at random should Mufasa get lynched are 1 in 7. In fact, had Madneet not CCd and we had lynched some other townie thinking Mufasa really was the doc, the odds would probably be 1 in 6 the mafia get a power role given that we accept Baltar's surmise that lynching the 'doc' would be so obvious that the JK would protect him. Now lets factor in that it is day 2 and a night kill had already been avoided. The town is definitely ahead at this point. Even though we do not know who the doc protected or who the JK roleblocked night one, we can hope at some point that this info will come out. So, what is madneet to do when Mufasa false claims? Somehow divine that Mufasa is really trying to set himself up to be NKd? Or, knowing he is the doctor, reasonably assume that Mufasa is a scum trying to get off the hook for another day? I just do not see how anyone can think that Mufasa was trying some brilliant ploy and actually defend that position, but feel free to try. So far the best I have seen are statements that, well, I can see trying something like sometime, but in this case it probably wasn't such a good idea. AND THATS THE POINT. I personally think this was either Mufasa's selfish attempt to remain in the game or, perhaps, an attempt at revenge on the town because he was pissed off at being lynched. Does it really matter other than trying to figure out why in the hell Camn would want to put herself out there by backing such a stupid action?

[Kreriov]

Once again Baltar, you are asking a loaded question.

Regarding your case on camn, do you think a player making one post in a game is a valid enough point to lynch them?

For one, its not just one post. You sort of left out the part where it was the one post PLUS hohum's past actions. So the answer would be no. Second, a single vote when it will take 5 votes to lynch does not a lynch make. Or am I not allowed to move my vote now?

Anyway, I will agree it doesn't really matter whether Mufasa was trying some brilliant ploy or even if Camn believes he was trying to pull off some brilliant ploy. The reason I take issue with her 'observation' as you so easily dismiss it is because I believe she is using it along with her sympathy with the towns so called plight as an attempt to try and appear to be the helpful townie replacement.

Posting history is nice, but as a replacement yourself, you should realize you come with baggage. My question would be, why the hell did you vote for madneet when he CCd mufasa?

[Kreriov]

unvote

[Kreriov]

All I know is Baltar has been driving pretty much everything since he joined and NOTHING he has said against me is anything but supposition, innuendo, slander, and insinuation. I keep wondering if any suspicions I have about Dejkha are based of the same innuendo and insinuation Baltar uses against me. I will say one thing. In my reread of Dejkha's vote on Mufasa, I was mistaken.

My biggest fear is that we lynch Dejkha and we get a townie flip. Because of Baltar's continued attacks on me and Dejkha and and his constant statements that one of us 'must' be scum, I will be next. Well, lets just head that off right now. IF people decide they want to lynch Dejkha, for which I will not vote, DO NOT DO SO! Instead, lynch me. When I flip town, lynch Baltar. At least that way we get one scum and are not at LYLO.

[Kreriov]

Vote: Baltar

@Baltar yes, I think you are scummy. Your case is a house of cards. Basically you start off saying I am scum because on day 1 I actually tried to encourage both sides of the whole Rin Twisted not liking to post meta controversy because I wanted to get people talking. You then move on to me not being sure if Emp was scummy but still voting for him. Well, welcome to day 1. I clearly state that I became sure he was scum after the pressure was applied and he flaked but you don't accept that at all. All of which if perfectly fine except for the fact that after every response you find something else to pick at. In fact when I answer and say ok, done, lets try to look at something concrete, you accuse me of deflecting! Basically you have caused this thread to be filled up with useless drivel and clutter. I now think that is deliberate. I will point out, again, how you ask loaded questions, insults, and insinuation to try and get your invalid points across.

Finally, lets look at your actual actions.

When you first join the game, you completely dismiss as useless any information that can be gained from Empking's lynch. Why?

Second, also when you first join the game, one of the very first things you say is the following:

The no night kill could be interpreted two ways, either all scum are inactive players (highly unlikely) or they wanted to cast suspicion on the inactive players. So far from my read I'm guessing the people who have already posted today do not fall into that category (sans my predecessor AWA).

What? No way. Even Empking would be able to see that the NK was prevented by the JK or the Doc. That second sentence is even a bit of your usual insinuation that AWA was not scum lurking, but just gone. Impossible to verify short of lynching you and once out there and not challenged, taken for granted.

And how about your vote remaining on Madneet? No offense, but what are you thinking? Mufasa AS A TOWNIE falsely claims doc. Ok, as a townie, what other conclusion can you make other than that Mufasa is scum when Madneet CCs? Especially given the no NK on night 1? Do the math. At that point it is a 8/3 split. If Mufasa flips Doc, the WORST end result on Day 4 is a 5/2 split. If anything, there is a great chance for it to be a 6/2 split given that the JK might already know of one scum and has a chance to block a NK again. Why the hesitation? Only scum would know that both are townie. What they would NOT know is which was the true doc.

So why leave your vote on Madneet? All I know is that the scum HAD to be scratching their heads when two people they would know are townies claim and CC doc. At best, unvote immediately and take time to sort it out. Instead, what we get is a rush to judgement with both townies and scum jumping all over Mufasa. Hell, we have barely even talked about that vote between Camn's 'it would have been brilliant had Madneet not messed it up' bullshit and your continued harping against me. And now you are trying to distract us even more by pulling hewitt into the mix.

So lets see, you make a weak case against me and continue to use my willingness to actually be open and truthful to confuse things, make insinuations and inuendo, and drive discussion where you want it. (My failure for not cutting you off sooner.) Anything you do not want to discuss is belittled by either accusing the person bringing it up as deflecting, by outright dismissal. or by making declarative statements that are plausible but do not cover all cases.

Anyway, I am through with you Baltar. Any questions anyone else have, I will continue to gladly answer, but I now feel that you have used my willingness to respond to what were originally reasonable questions have become an ongoing and deliberate distraction.

Therefor, I will say it again. I think it is clear that VP is scum, but others may not agree. I think most people would agree that both myself and VP cannot be town. Therefor, I propose that to verify my alignment the town lynch me. When you see I am town, you can then lynch Baltar. The numbers are there for this to work. Right now it stands at a 7/3 split. After my lynch, Baltar's lynch, and 2 nightkills, it would stand at 4/2, with a good possibility of it being 5/2 and even a chance at 6/2. Hopefully by then we will also have the information about who the JK blocked night 1 and, if a NK is blocked again, more infomation about who was blocked and who was protected.

[Kreriov]

Wow, I cannot believe people are arguing over Madneet CCing. He did exactly as he was supposed to do. Are all of you going to let Camn and Baltar lead you around by the nose? Camn says it was stupid for Madneet to claim a town and Baltar is sort of supporting it by insinuation that Madneet might not be the real doc. Sorry if this is longer than Ztife's short post.

So lets look at it. Lets assume that Madneet is the real doc.

Mufasa claims doc. Madneet has no way of knowing he is a TOWNIE falsely claiming. At this point, Madneet thinks Mufasa is scum. Also, the split is at 8/3. So, madneet CCs AS HE SHOULD expecting Mufasa to get lynched AS MUFASA SHOULD given the CC. This makes the split 8/2 then 7/2 after the night kill. Um, HELLO, hell yeah you CC.

Still, Camn and Baltar insinuate that a real doc is still out there because a 'real' doc might want to keep his anonymous protection ability intact, but this does not make much sense.

So again, lets assume Madneet is the real doc. First off, the assumption is that by claiming the doc will no longer be able to protect anyone. Um, why? This assumes that the JK protects the doc that night. Again, its a standard assumption to make. But its also typical WIFOM thinking and its a trap. The scum have exactly the same WIFOM choice so its really a random choice anyway. So even assuming Madneet realized he would be a target for a night kill, it just doesn't matter. All he is doing is making the JK and the scum make WIFOM choice, either of which is valid. The so-called 'reason' to not CC really just doesn't exist. If anything, having a known townie out there who is still protected because being targeted for a NK is such a gamble for the scum is a help.

The moral of the story is, hell yeah Madneet should have CCd someone he thinks is scum.

Since I suspect Camn and Baltar will not let this rest, lets look at if from the perspective of Madneet being scum.

@Ztife, I think you are overestimating the results that could be gained from such a gamble as well

Mufasa claims doc. Madneet is scum and knows Mufasa is town. Again, Madneet has no way of know Mufasa is a townie FALSELY CLAIMING! Look at the numbers, Mufasa is lynched, followed by a NK, followed by madneet of course getting lynched, followed by another NK. At this point the split would be 5/2. How does this really help the scum all that much? For one, there is still a JK out there who could block their actions and who may already know who one of the scum are from the first night roleblock, making it MORE likely that they get caught again. So basically they have 2 chances to try and nail the JK at night without being able to taint anyone else or cause another mislynch. And at best the split will get down to 5/2. This just seems like a HUGE gamble to me.

Anyway, all this just points to Madneet being the real doc. At best it doesn't hurt us thinking that at this point.

So I will ask again, why would Camn and Baltar keep pushing this unlikely scenario that madneet falsely claimed?

[Kreriov]

You right, there was no insinuation, there was straight out accusation on your part. Here are quotes.

He just should have never been counterclaimed. That is where the fail was.

But it is not reasonable for a person to assume that, since CCing makes NO SENSE as town, that Maadnet might have been scum

@ Hewitt : it was maadnet that misplayed, though, you understand. Despite dejkha's 767, he claimed. This was not Mufasa's problem.
And for everyone thinking we even NEED a doc in a near vanilla.. you are mistaken. Docs aren't that useful.

Did is misread these? Madneet misplayed by CCing as town, therefor he is probably not town?

Now I look at, at least until now, continued statements that Mufasa was trying some brilliant ploy and I see faulty logic with the deliberate aim to discredit Madneet.

So, combine the hohum past with faulty logic and add an initial post that seems designed to push every pro-town button you can find and I see scum.

Finally, do you really think docs are not that useful? Heck, the town is in a great position right now with both the doc and jk alive.

[Kreriov]

There is a case against me apparently. Lynch me.

[Kreriov]

Because I think you are scum and I see no other way to prove it. You have manufactured a case against me. You have used it to continue to confuse and distract the town. You manufacture a link between myself and Dejkha. (I mean really, what other connection is there between myself and Dejkha other than your accusations? That I agreed with him sometimes and sometimes did not?) You use half statements and half truths. I have pointed out again and again how your entire case against me is innuendo and supposition. What other reason could you have for this other than that you are scum? I so no other way to verify my veracity other than to have my alignment revealed. Since we do not have a cop to investigate, that leaves my lynching or me being night killed. So I say again, lynch me, see I am town, and then lynch Baltar. Because quess what, no matter which way Dejkha flips, I am next on Baltar's list. I am merely asking to be moved to the front of the line.

[Kreriov]

Ac1983fan is exactly right. If you are town, then self-hammering is not in the town's best interest.

I will reiterate again, I think it is a mistake to lynch Dejkha at this time. Baltar has driven this bus right up to the cliff. Once Dejkha is lynched, he can drive it wherever he wants. He has created a situation in which no matter which way Dejkha flips, he is the good guy.

[Kreriov]

I will say it again. Baltar is scum. For the reasons stated. It doesn't matter if Dejkha is town or scum, once lynched, I will be next. Hell, you pretty much admit that Hewitt, so what is the problem lynching me know? I just don't get it. I am not trying to move the argument off Dejkha. The case against Dejkha will still be there. But when I flip town, the entire interaction with Baltar changes, does it not? If Baltar is lying about me, he must be lying about alot of things. I am saying lynch me first to verify everything I have said and expose his lies.

[Kreriov]

So figure out which is which. Lynch me then you can lynch VP. When I flip town, that does not clear Dejkha, but it sure implicates Baltar.

[Kreriov]

Can we get a hallelujah for Madneet and our JK. As we all know, I think VP is scum, but as I do not think enough are convinced of that yet DESPITE him driving a wagon made of spit and bailing wire over Dejkha, so I will go with who is next on my list.

Vote: Camn

I mean really. You thought Dejkha might be town, but weren't sure, so you started a wagon to catch you some scum. Then jumped off once you probably caught a few, then decided to hammer despite thinking Dejkha was town because....?

Oh, right, you hammered because you thought you could get away with it. My bad.

@Everyone else - BTW, I do have a theory as to why Camn was pushing the 'Mufasa had a brilliant plan' line of BS as well as denigrating Madneet's play in CCing. I will lay odds that Camn was trying to set up a false doc claim.

Ah well, Madneet, it would be awsome if you could let us know who you protected last night once you get a chance to respond.

[Kreriov]

Sorry VP, I should have said joined a wagon not started a wagon. I only clarify for everyone else. As ANY interaction with you is only more distraction to the town.

@Everyone - Look at Camn's vote history. She gets on Dejkha's wagon (you know, the one you started), then gets off, then finally drops the hammer. Her excuse for getting off the wagon at the time is she didn't want the hammer to drop when she is asleep, so then she just drops the hammer herself? And now all this was supposed to be some trick to get a scum to hammer someone she suspected was a townie, but she dropped the hammer anyway?

Wow.

Anyway, you all know I think Baltar is scum and why. Knowing for sure that he fabricated a case against Dejkha is just another point against him. As I think Camn is scum as well, my vote remains there, but rest assured I will hammer if the vote total against VP ever gets to 4 and those voting for him include Madneet and Hewitt. (Those are the only two I classify as town right now.)

[Kreriov]

What, BALTAR continuing to ask distracting and misleading questions? Surely you jest Hewitt. The idea that Baltar could have had a real wagon form on him yesterday is pretty remote. Its a straw man argument for him to say that it seemed inevitable that the lynch was down to him or Dejkha.

[Kreriov]

Ones that are not distracting and misleading? I mean really, questioning Hewitt because he WASN'T voting for Dejkha or Baltar and voting for someone he actually thought was scum? And the reason Baltar gives is a straw man argument? I just do not see the reason for this EXCEPT to confuse and distract. To try and get Hewitt to post something so VP can then pick it apart and ask yet more meaningless and distracting questions all under the guise of 'I'm a good townie doing scumhunting'. What complete crap.

Which isn't to say there are not valid questions to ask Hewitt. How about this one.

Hewitt, why did you try to rush the Mufasa lynch? You posted deadlines as to when you were going to lhammer him without regard for him trying to claim or to take into allowance that others might not have time to actually see what was going on. Has Hewitt answered that one?

[Kreriov]

No, but others think it is important, Hewitt. And others probably want a chance to look things over, maybe ask a few more questions, maybe even unvote. The only deadline that should ever be set is by the mod. If you decide to hammer, do it or do not do it. It does not relieve you of the responsibility by simply saying that no one contradicted you by the time you set. You, if town, have absolutely no reason to set a deadline.

Scum, on the other, have plenty of reason to set deadlines and rush lynches.

[Kreriov]

Your right. The problem is that Baltar uses a Straw Man argument. Classic technique to both make the question appear more relevant and appear like it is actually a new question. Hewitt stated earlier that he thought SpyreX was the most scummy so he was voting that way. Baltar comes back with the same question dressed up with a straw man argument. Why don't YOU tell me why Baltar would do this?

[Kreriov]

@Ztife - Well, right now I think Camn and Baltar are scum. Obviously I think Camn scummier than Baltar. As for a third, I am still leaning SpyreX.

@Zwet what is a blatant lie? Ztife is exactly right. Camn's so called gambit excuse is complete crap. She jumps off Dejkha and goes to ac1983fan to see if scum would follow her? Why would they UNLESS Dejkha is scum? Why would they leave a wagon on a townie that is oh so close to success whatever ac1983fans alignment? And talk about execution! Even if Camn was seriously trying this gambit and not just coming up with an excuse after the fact, how the hell does she expect it to work when she barely gets any kind of a case going against ac1983fan and then just drops it to hammer dejkha only a day later?

[Kreriov]

Ah, I see. Um, I could be wrong but he probably meant Ztife not Zwet. I would say Ztife, Ac, SpyreX, and Madneet have the lowest participation.

[Kreriov]

Bah, never mind. That was Ztife. Yeah, how the hell do you (Zwet) get in the low participation list?

[Kreriov]

Pretty impressive wall of text there SpyreX. You are right in one thing, I have been suckered into writing way to much. Part of it is my own fault. I suggest you go back and look at the actual timing of my post. I rarely post on weekends because I rarely have time to look at this on weekends. I also rarely post after about 5pm EST or before 6am EST. If I have a wall of posts, its because I am responding to quite a bit all at once, much like you who FINALLY decided to really do something 3 weeks and 51 pages into the game.

Part of it is because I was stupid enough to fall into Baltar's trap. I take it to hart that the biggest weapons a townie has are his mind and his voice. Stupid in that I tried to refute every little thing Baltar has said and all it did was allow him to take some little thing and caste more suspicion and innuendo. Note that I am no longer allowing that to happen.

As for not taking a stand, well, look at my vote history. I do have long posts and put alot of thoughts down. I will work on being more concise. Note that I put my vote down and defend it when I do. Sounds like a strong stand to me.

I voted for Empking because he was suspicious, a hindrance to the town, and I hoped to put pressure on him. I kept my vote on Empking because he refused to claim.
I voted for Mufasa because his vote on Empking was suspicious, he was lurking, and would have continued to vote for him when he was CCd by madneet.
I voted for and suspect Baltar because his case is fabricated - lies, innuendo, and supposition, just like yours now.
I vote for for Camn with clear, stated reasons. No more allowing Baltar and now you to simply pick and choose what you want to fabricate evidence.

I will say it again. If you don't believe me, fine. Lynch me. Then read exactly what I say and lynch Baltar. Or rather TOWN read exactly as I say and lynch Baltar. I do not think you are town SpyreX. Oh, and I said that before your wall of text post so no trying to say this is OMGUS.

@Zwet - Once we know who Madneet protected and should we find out who the JK blocked, do you think it would be valuable to talk about the NKs then?

[Kreriov]

@Hewitt - There are 4 good reasons for the JK to come forward.

First - It would ensure we have the info about who he blocked each night.

Second - We have one more mislynch to use in the event of a CC to sort things out.

Third - Our doc is still alive and can definitely protect him for another night

Fourth - It would narrow down the number of suspects immediately

Cons
If the doc does not have to protect a known JK, there is a greater chance to thwart another NK
It gives the scum more info

Those are my thoughts. Given that the JK has played brilliantly so far, I trust his judgment as to whether it is worth it to come forward.

[Kreriov]

Good thing I didn't suggest it then. It was SpyreX. Oh right, you don't really care, you just want to cast suspicion.

[Kreriov]

I certainly did not. I responded to Hewitt saying there was no reason. I see four very good reasons for and two reasons against. I also clearly say I trust the JKs judgment and did not state any preference. Wanting to discuss it is neither suspicious nor unexpected. Once again, you are using something simple and trying to create suspicion. If SpyreX did not want it discussed, why did he even mention it?

Its a catch 22. SpyreX mentions it but doesn't expect people to talk about it? Right. If you talk about it, you are scum. Or better yet, if you advocate for it, you are scum because you are outing the JK. If you are against it, you are scum because you don't want the town to know you were blocked or because you know that after today, its probably LYLO and can CC more effectively, or whatever else you want to make up.

I put reasons for and against and was completely neutral for a reason. It is not my decision. It is the JKs and yet you try to make it seem suspicious. Nice try scum.

[Kreriov]

And what is wrong with that Zwet? Knowing exactly who the JK blocked is some pretty important information to have, don't you think? I am not talking about trying to figure why scum did or did not do something. I am talking about trying to get real, concrete data that can be use logically to make real deductions instead of the finger pointing contest we have now.

[Kreriov]

Exactly! This discussion is not scummy either way. And yet, Baltar says I am scummy for listing all the reasons pro and con I could think of at the time. As soon as I point out I was, indeed, neutral, he backtracks and says no no, really, you were advocating the JK coming forth because you said 4 good reasons and only 'tacked' (notice the the pejorative value of the word) 2 Cons on at the end. So I am scum because I didn't list the cons first? Because I made no judgment on the value of each point? What was I supposed to say, 2 good cons? 2 good reasons not to come forward? Please tell me what exactly I should have said to be completely, unequivocally neutral and still try to discuss the issue short of saying exactly what I did, which is that I trust the JKs judgment as to whether it is worth it.

Its all speculation until we know and Camn is right when she says the info may or may not be of use. For example, maybe the JK did indeed protect the doc last night. I do not see how knowing this as fact helps us much. At this point the only person who can judge the value of the info we can gain by know who the JK protected is the JK.

But trying to make it seem scummy because I followed up on SpyreX saying its a high risk/low reward plan? Typical Baltar. Throw mud and see what sticks.

As for the other 'good' and 'bad' reasons for the JK to come forward, again, is it scummy to say the JK is the best judge, as if we or I can force him to do anything? I have made no recommendations, for or against. I do find it interesting to see WHO thinks its a bad idea without even trying to support their logic.

Camn, irregardless of the info we may or may not get from the JKs night actions, do you think it would be valuable to have a JK claim/cc fight now, rather than during LYLO?

Do you think narrowing down the field of suspects by having two known townies (the doc and the JK) would be helpful?

Do you think that the current situation makes it tougher on the scum to conduct night moves and if it is tougher, does it outweigh the possible benefits gained by the JK declaring?

Basically Camn, you point out that the info we will get may or may not be useful. But you fail to address or consider other benefits/problems. Why?

Same to Baltar and SpyreX. Why are the three people I think are scum saying categorically ts a bad idea, DESPITE the fact I have not advocated for or against this action. They have not tried to refute or support anything. They have merely said you are scum for even thinking about it.

[Kreriov]

Dare question my motives all you want, do not try to imply I intended something I did not. The mere fact I listed 4 pros and 2 cons does not imply I advocate either. That is implication YOU added. Why?

And denigrating me again just does not add to a case already made of smoke and mirrors.

[Kreriov]

@All - Frankly, I am just sick and tired of Baltar driving so much and so incorrectly. I know its alot, but go back over the entire exchange. He accuses me initially and I respond. (Yes, just like SpyreX said. Um, isn't that how its supposed to work? Someone challenges you so you respond?) Anyway, I start off neutral and responsive, trying hard to answer his questions. I don't mind people questioning me, that is how the game is supposed to work. However, when the person questioning finds fault with absolutely everything you say, twists your words, makes insinuations, builds a false case made of smoke and mirrors, after a bit it gets old. Look how long it took me to decide Baltar was scum, pages and days. I was patient thinking he was being a zealous townie. Well, after a bit, his constant, unrelenting attacks convinced me that he was scum hoping I would do exactly as I did, make longer, more angry posts. Go and read and see what happens when I try to bring up issues I am concerned about. He does not address them, he says I am trying to deflect attention from myself even though I make sure to try and refute his allegations or answer his questions first. I did not start suspecting everything Baltar says until much later when it became obvious to me that he was using me to confuse and distract.

For example, why have we not discussed the actual voting pools on people? How many scum do people think were on the empking lynch? The Mufasa lynch? The Dejkha lynch? You all know exactly who I think are scum, Camn, Baltar, and SpyreX. At the very least, do you think at least 2 scum were on Dejkha's lynch? From my standpoint, that is absolutely true.

Again, if I am lynched, think about that. Assume I am town or lynch me and know it to be true, that means 2 of the 4 not voting for Dejkha are town, another is almost certainly town (Madneet) with only Hewitt as the question mark. As it is right now, Madneet is almost certainly town, which leaves just myself and Hewitt as possible scum not on the lynch. Do you REALLY think we are both scum? In which case, why are we not focusing more on the people who were actually ON Dejkha's lynch. I think there are 3 scum in that batch and its pretty logical to think there are at least two. Why are we not focusing on them? It was WAY to easy to lynch Dejkha given that at least 2 townies were not going to be on the lynch and, whatever your thoughts about me, I certainly wasn't.

As to why I keep saying lynch me, I will say it again. As town, its pretty much my job. I want to ensure that either someone who I think is scum gets lynched, or to be the sacrificial lamb making sure a mislynch gets the town the best, most pertinent information. If I am lynched and when I turn up townie, that would mean Baltar had led the wagon on two townies. How could you NOT lynch him next?

[Kreriov]

Well, why don't you suggest something then? Basically all we have now is Baltar and SpyreX saying everything I do is in reaction to them. Not true. I see votes from Camn/Hohum that are very suspicious and at best the get a passing glance because no one takes the time to really talk about those votes. Even the discussion about the JK was basically the same three people telling me I am idiot for even discussing it and a few others sort of making passing comments. What exactly do you think we should be doing Zwet?

I did not fling a single new accusation. I asked how many scum do you think were on the various lynches, particularly Dejkhas, and why. Obviously you do not think it was three. Do you think it at least 2? If less than 2, why?

[Kreriov]

Not true Camn. Scum certainly do lead wagons.

As for your Ztife case, points a and b I think are accurate.

Point c, I can see it. I am not sure I would call it panicked, but close enough. It seems very opportunistic.

Point e, I don't see at all. It might not be reasoning to your liking (or mine in some places), but it does make sense.

Could you please explain the following:

just as I am trying to derail the Dej wagon

What? You tried to derail the Dej wagon? By derail do you mean hammering it home?

[Kreriov]

Wait, what?

This is exactly what you said about your 'ac9183fan' gambit.

He didn't, so he looked pretty town to me....not that I was going to waste any time defending him.
SO>>>>
I flipped the wagon, and I was thinking that IF dej was scum, any scum would very quickly follow me onto a town-wagon.
Alternatively, if he were town, NO scum would follow me onto a scum-wagon.

This gambit has almost convinced me of Ac1983's being scum.

Obviously I couldn't explain that then, because it would have totally blown the gambit.

And now you say this?

When I jumped OFF the wagon... Ztife jumped ON. That seems interesting to me, and fits into my gambit as something-scum-would-do.

Which is it? Your say gambit was to get scum to follow you onto ac1983fan. I point out that your complete failure in logic as well as the horrible execution of it, and now you say no no, really I was trying to see who would jump ON to Dejkha's wagon? And then you hammer anyway because Ztife hopped on and must be scum trying to kill a townie? REALLY?

[Kreriov]

This is for SpyreX. He wanted concrete examples, so here they are.

This is my entire post 313.

I mentioned that once Rin (that Empking's psychotic posting doesn't necessarily make him scum). However, it might. And wouldn't it just be brilliant. Either way, it does not matter. Empking is not helping the town with his actions so maybe we can learn something by upping the ante a bit. I am not so much interested in what Empking has to say but what others have to say when I put another vote on him. (Should be number 4 by my count.)

Unvote - Vote: Empking

I would also like to ask ztife what he considers 'lurking'. The whole argument with zwet was a bit distracting. I guess he did not say more about me because I did not engage him like zwet. I am not experienced in such a large game, but with so many people, it seems there would be more pages by now.

Post 575 is the where Baltar posts his initial case against me. His first attack only quotes part of 313 and ignores the whole conversation building up to it. Basically he completely ignores that I was clearly looking for more info and clearly realize I am putting vote 4 on Empking, not lynching him or even putting him in much danger of a quick lynch.

Next he chops up my post 348. His loaded, rhetorical question after only posting the first small excerpt insinuates I do not care if we lynch a townie. Not true and DEFINITELY not following the conversation. Baltar goes on to say and use a quote snippet to insinuate hat I state I believe both that Empking could be scum or he could not be. He says KMD was not twisting my words. (He was.) He finishes using that snippet with another loaded, insinuation question that implies I did not find Empking scummy in asking why my vote was there. This was already answered - I thought Empking's played seemed scummy and I wanted more info to decide if it was actually scummy or just him being stupid. I found Empking's reaction to the pressure on him scummy so left my vote there.

Later on Baltar uses some more snippets and tries to stifle any lines of inquiry I might want to open right here.

The questions I would like discussed by the group in general would be:

Why would Madneet want to post a vote for Empking after he had been hammered but BEFORE we knew his alignment?

Why would zwet make a point of saying he would have hammered Empking had he been around, but AFTER we knew Empking was town? (And that a night kill was prevented)

Stop trying to dictate what the town discusses, scum. Also, note his two targets for discussion, a complete lurker and seemingly inept player(madneet) and Dej's second target (Zwet).

Um, wait, we SHOULDN'T question lurkers? Is this the begining of the set up that somehow I am linked with Dejkha? Will I suddenly become Camn's scum buddy if I start asking questions of ac1983fan? Were the questions I am asking so poor that they should not have been asked? And how the hell am I dictating to the town when I say 'I would like' some questions answered? Is the a better way for me to pose questions I think the town should consider without somehow appearing to be 'dictating'? What, exactly, is the problem with asking questions about weird behavior? Unless, of course, the objection is being used to imply I am 'dictating'?

My first reply to Baltar is in post 590. Do I seem upset? Reasonable? Defensive? Read Baltar's post 575 then 590. I think I react very well to Baltar's long, loaded, insinuating post. Baltar attacks the fact that my initial vote was because I thought Empking might be scummy but was not sure, leaving out that I specifically was hoping to get and generate more info BECUASE I had some doubts. I feel his post deliberately does not include context, misrepresents conversation flow prior to the Empking lynch, and makes insinuations, and yet, I am very calm and just answer plainly. He completely ignores that once the pressure was on Empking, I clearly state that I found his actions to be scummy and still do. Baltar is using subsequent information (Empking's known alignment) to create a post hoc fallacious argument.

His very next post, 591, points out that I did not talk about Dej. Again, read 591. I feel again that this post is insinuating I am not town because I did not immediately answer one question in a huge post that was so insinuating and misleading. My reply is in 593. Again, look at it and tell me if I am doing anything but answering his direct question reasonably and completely. (As an aside, despite Baltar's accusation in 591 that Dejkha did not answer his 'how do you feel about Kreriov' question, Dejkha actually did in post 579, saying his case - post 575 - is crappy. Baltar IMMEDIATELY says this means Dejkha and I are a scum team in post 580. Really?)

Now we go to post 599, his answer to my 593. He says he is not insulting me by calling me scum. (Ok, I guess not, but with the so-called case in 575, I probably felt that way.) He also asks for quotes where he said there was no info to be had from the Empking lynch. (I guess he didn't say that exactly, but I sure took it that way when he calls the lynch 'bungled' , talks of the 'tragic' day 1., and especially because he uses a quote in which I talk about info from the lynch to make insinuations.)

He posts again in 612. Read it and 575 back to back. The are almost the same post, 612 is just a bit cleaner now after being called out for making insunations. Again he takes snippets of posts and leaves out any context. He goes back, again, to saying I lynched Empking because of his playstyle with no concern about Empking's actual alignment. Again, not true. I put a vote on Empking to get more info and Empkings reaction made me think him scum, but Baltar does not acknowledge or accept that I said and did this. Notice how he implies I am trying to hide or not answer his questions. Go back and read my 593 and 590. Am I evading questions? At this point, I am trying to condense posts and not make 'post walls' as SpyreX puts it, but I am certainly forthright and reasonable in my answers. When I do turn around and ask some simple questions of Baltar he immediately attacks saying the burden of proof is on me. Why? I answered his questions. He might not like the answers, but I certainly did answer them and nicely too. This is also where he starts the 'Your deflecting, no your deflecting' back and forth. My fault for falling into the trap. I should have pointed out he was trying to say that, despite my first answering his questions, I was trying to deflect by asking my own questions and then let it drop.

My next post replying to Baltar's 612 is 620. This is about where I start the 'walls of text'. Again, read it and tell me if I seem particularly upset or if I am trying to, finally and completely, answer Baltar's repeated, insinuating, misleading questioning.

I am not going to go on and continue analyzing the back and forth between myself and Baltar. The point is, I fell into his trap. I got into this long back and forth trying to show that Baltar's case was junk. It is and has been. I think the reason he has continued to pursue is precisely because it distracted the town. It took a long time and way to much back and forth to realize Baltar was just using me to distract the town. Now that I realize this, well, I must conclude he is scum.

On a last note, I would also ask everyone to read SpyreX's posts in conjunction with mine and Baltar's. I certainly see a reason to pair the two.

[Kreriov]

Huh, two scum basically ignoring anything I have to say. Nice. What part Camn? Are the post numbers and my descriptions not correct? Which part SpyreX? The part where I specify the exact posts by Baltar and me you should read as context or the part where I provide the exact quote and context supporting my statements that Baltar tries to imply I am dictating to town when I try to question a weird or lurking behavior? Or the part where I point out in post 475 exactly where Baltar uses implication and insinuation and leaves out context to support those insinuations and implications?

See those bolded parts? Those things you keep saying over and over. Prove them. Use some time, pull out the posts, and show with examples how these are happening.

I break down post 475 and reference the exact posts he is quoting. That is not citing examples? I point to and break down the exact posts (590, 591, 612 and 620) that ensue for a few more examples of how the conversation proceeds, and that is not citing or showing examples? Will you not be satisfied until I take every single one of Baltar's posts that has anything directed at me, my responses, my challenges back at him, and his responses, quoted and cited?

Sorry, I know you will not be satisfied because anything that takes the town focus off Camn's actions or away from Baltar being oh so townie while driving a wagon over townies is good for scum.

[Kreriov]

Wow. Go Camn! Who did you throw in jail last night? I apologize for suspecting you. If we win, you get first star.

[Kreriov]

No you didn't. You were hoping to get a wagon going on me again. Without VP's support, its not going to happen until Zwet is dead and you know it.

Vote: Zwet

[Kreriov]

EBWOP: Post 1487 was @SpyreX. You all are posting very quickly right now!

[Kreriov]

@Camn - Why shouldn't I suspect SpyreX? If he is scum, we will lose because... why, exactly?

For one, he is not cleared. You jailed him twice. On N3 he was either the target or the goon sent to do the kill, no way to know. You jailing him on N2 certainly does not clear him.

Given the results of the night, however, I will say I think that Ztife is Zwets scumpartner.

[Kreriov]

No worries, you did not unvote first Hewitt. I am curious though. I would think SpyreX would be more suspicious if I should be lynched and flip town but you seem to be saying the opposite?

[Kreriov]

Well, given that your 'everything' consists of parroting Baltar's weak case, has an OMGUS flavor, and seems to ignore actual data we have gathered from the last 3 lynches, yeah, I see what Hewitt means. Hell, you didn't even bother to see what Camn had to say before voting for me then flipping over to zwet.

[Kreriov]

Um, I don't think you want me making cases Ztife. Right now my 4 prime candidates for scum are you, zwet, SpyreX, and Baltar, with Zwet and you leading.

Basically, I believe the Camn and Madneet claims. Those are pretty solid. Given that I know my alignment, that makes it very likely that both of the remaining scum were in on both the Dejkha and AC lynches. (No, hewitt is not cleared. It just seems given the ease with which he could have jumped on Dejkha's lynch or wanted to be appear a bit more town by being on the ac lynch that he would have been in on at least one of them. I actually thought he might be the JK until the Camn/AC CC fight.) So anyway, that leaves you, SpyreX, Baltar and Zwet. Given everything that has been going on, I would put you and zwet together and Baltar and SpyreX together. Zwets sudden hammer of AC was just to over the top to ignore. Zwets says he likes to hammer. True, but he is also one who I think would assume bussing a scumbuddy would confirm him town. He jumped the gun and failed to let anyone else weight in on the matter. If we lynch zwet and he flips scum, your next. If not, I will reconsider hewitt and go back to SpyreX/Baltar.

[Kreriov]

Unvote

[Kreriov]

I guess that is your perspective on it then. Sooner or later you have to start playing with some balls and make choices. I don't see a lot more information coming out of the day, as it is obviously needs to be Zwet or Ztife.

Last night we had one of four things happen:

1)Ztife is the scum who was sent to carry out the kill and was jailed
2) The scum targeted Ztife and failed cause of the JK
3) The scum targeted camn and failed because of doc protect
4) The scum did not send a kill

#4 and #2 are pretty unlikely. #3 doesn't make a lot of sense because maad said before the end of the day that he was going to protect camn. That only leaves #1 as a viable reason for the no kill last night, unless I am missing something.

Writing this out has actually made me much more confident about my vote. I think a hammer could be in order.

Really? #2 is just so unlikely because why exactly? #3 and #4 are the ones I find most unlikely. #1 is the most glaringly obvious and I happen to agree. But if not, then #2 is the answer. I am pointing this out because Camn's little list of lynch order is so out of whack. All I know is that in the last 3 lynches, the four suspects I have named, Zwet, Ztife, VP, and SpyreX were all involved. I know I am town. I think Hewitt is town, that means of those 4 two are scum. Its all fine and dandy that Camn is going with her gut. Its worked so far. Use your gut to analyze the facts. Of course this all might be speculation. We will know quite a bit more soon.

Vote: Ztife

[Kreriov]

Really, because I don't have to endure a dead mans bullshit anymore or because you want to beat a dead, weak case one last time from the grave? Since the town is garanteed of a win, assuming Camn did not try to jail Madneet last night, I am pretty happy right now.

I am going to assume Camn jailed Zwet. This gives us him as a confirmed townie and 2 pretty much confirmed townies. That leaves me, SpyreX, and Hewitt as possible scum. We lynch one of those three. Doesn't matter who. Lets just say SpyreX for the sake of argument

If its a mislynch, Madneet protects Camn and Camn jails either me or Hewitt. Lets say she jails me. If the night kill suceeds, you know the last scum must be hewitt and we lynch him. Lets say hewitt gets clever and does not put in a night kill, so you lynch me. Well, when you see I really am town, Camn jails Hewitt, preventing his night kill, and he gets lynched the next day.

All we need is Camn to tell us who she jailed last night!

[Kreriov]

Vote: Hewitt

I think Zwets was 'The Hamma', but just in case.

[Kreriov]

Good job ZazieR.

Camn and Maadneet - you two were awsome.

Hewitt - I did not suspect you until the very end even with your lurking. I simply did not see how Dejkha could be lynched without all three scum being in on it. Baltar definitely drove that case home very well. He is certainly right that you should have tried to NK Maadneet. That is just such a tough choice to make.

I would play again with anyone who played except Empking. Never again.