Mafia 31: African - Game over!

[vikingfan]

Semi-random

vote Talitha

since I haven't played with her before.

Not bad results for the first night. Any thoughts on why those two might have been selected for destruction?

[vikingfan]

This sounds to me awfully like someone who spend the last few days thinking of the perfect person to kill for some specific reason, made that kill, and now wants the town to come to a false conclusion about who would have done the killings.

I know I'm reading a lot in to that, but I do think people who ask about the night-kills often tend to be the scum that killed them.

You're reading too much into it. I was just trying to discuss about the only thing we were given by the mod-the persons killed. I suppose next time I should just 'random vote' and leave it at that to avoid this kind of thing.

But in any case, it is perfectly possible for pro-town people to bring up this topic, not just scum. I don't see where it's indicative of having a scum role.

[vikingfan]

There are plenty of "small things" that can be put out there that I don't find scummy

Like what? It seems that nowadays ANYTHING someone says can be construed to be scummy, in and of itself. That's the nature of Mafia.

[vikingfan]

Sure, anything can be construed to be scummy, and there are good odds that given any one thing you say,

someone

(but not necessarily me) will find it scummy. If you don't think it's scummy, then say so, and defend yourself. In the process, we'll see how you react, and we'll see how others react to the ongiong debate. That's just how the game is played, man.

Cam

While I agree with that, you were saying about how there were small things I could have posted that you wouldn't have found scummy. Rather, posting anything can be found scummy, or even not posting at all(in the case of lurking).

In any case, it's water under the bridge, IMO.

[vikingfan]

Whoa, that's a pretty powerful role. Now, obviously, I don't think we need to have people saying, "My role is governmental." That opens up the whole field for scum to start killing important people, at least in theory.

The roleclaim also makes sense within the context of the theme of Africa.

Oh, and

unvote Talitha

since it was random.

[vikingfan]

So you're basically a cop then, albeit with only two chances to investigate? I am surprised that you chose to do this on night 1 when you would have basically no information. Is there any information on your sanity or not?

As for laying on a vote, I'm going to wait and see what MOS says.

[vikingfan]

Whoa! That was an 'out of the blue' claim. Before now you hadn't even mentioned MoS, not so much as a FOS. Why did you decide now was the time to come forward with this information?

I thought that too, but on the other hand, he's a limited cop, with only one more possible investigation. After that(assuming the claim is true), he's likely a regular townie with not much value. So since he got a scum, it makes sense to come out now.

BTW, if MOS is innocent, day 2 is a likely lynch for Locus, so we likely get at least one scum here in 2 days. Not a bad play. And MOS didn't exactly fill me with confidence either in his post, so I'll

Vote MastermindofSin

[vikingfan]

You may as well role claim now-I think you're only a few votes away from a lynch. May as well get all the information we can.

[vikingfan]

I could see the role, but the thing is, with the scenario we have now, either MOS or Locus is scum. So at this point, I'm OK with lynching MOS and letting that prove Locus' innocence or guilt.

As for IS, according to MOS, it's a 25% chance, meaning that the odds are very good that IS may not be able to verify the claim at all.

[vikingfan]

BTW, we still have some lurkers in Otaku376(one post) and Quagmire(vote and unvote Talitha), not to mention Nanook who still hasn't posted at all. Quag's second was a day or two ago, but the other two I think need prodding/replacing. It's always helpful to play with all the players available.

[vikingfan]

Actually, I double-checked Otaku and his one post was last Sunday and it just consisted of a vote for Narninian. So he may not need replacing yet.

[vikingfan]

Not too bad at all.

BTW, Yaw, I'd like to know why it was considered a lynch even though we weren't at the 12 needed to lynch, especially since Dranko unvoted just before you posted the death scene.

Other than that, I'm ready to hear whether Locus nailed another scum today or not. Locus?

[vikingfan]

So either Uraj or dranko has 2 votes-pretty simple.

I suppose the next question is whether such an ability is worthy of forcing a role claim or bandwagoning.

[vikingfan]

I'm going to wait and see what IS and Quag say, but I'm also quite prepared to vote Maximus pending their responses.

[vikingfan]

And I was just about to vote too until I saw that we should have a lynch. Hopefully we're right and Maximus is scum.

[vikingfan]

Well, I can tell you for certain that I am not scum. You can kill me if you like, but it's not going to help you find scum and you'll simply have another night with likely two people dead.

I can role claim, but I'll wait and see if people want me to do that. As for that opening round, it's a little much to ask to expect IS to have investigated me AND found scum right off the bat. Granted, it's all you have right now, but I can tell you honestly now that I'm not scum.

[vikingfan]

Given the rapid bandwagon, I should probably role claim at this point. Well, I am an orange seller who sells oranges to the town; however I am just a townie with no night abilities. I win with the town.

[vikingfan]

They aren't; oranges are native to Asia In fact, it appears oranges aren't a major crop in Ghana. I'm not sure I buy this.

vote: VikingFan

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anywhere in the game where the game is located in Ghana. I checked and while they originated in Asia, they were shipped to Africa fairly early on.

http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Food ... ranges.htm

And I'll

FOS Coolbot

for the Ghana thing. Nowhere in the game have I seen Ghana listed and there are a lot of other possibilities for the location of the game besides Ghana.

[vikingfan]

Well, my PM says orange seller, not trader. Note the actual quote you're using there. 'Partly paid for.' Selling does not imply taking money. If I sell you a bushel of oranges in exchange for a bushel of apples(hypothetically speaking), it is still a sale, just like if you paid me 5 dollars for said bushel of oranges. You're still paying me for the said bushel of oranges, just in different currency.

As for the FOS on Coolbot, I had assumed they were merely authentic African tribes-I hadn't been aware that they had actually been located down to a specific region within Africa.

[vikingfan]

Oh, and as far as the Andrew S quote, I did see it making sense within the context of the game-and in fact it did.

And it should be noted that it said, "partly paid for". In other words, at least part of the transaction involved money.

[vikingfan]

I assume that Maximus was lying about who he recruited. Why let the town know who the cult members are? There was nothing in the death scene to show that IS was cult, so I think I can assume that Quag wasn't either.

[vikingfan]

Usually when someone dies, the mod will say what they were, or not. It's very very rare for the mod to tell part of it but not all of it-it's usually all or nothing. Now, it's very possible that he DID try to recruit but failed on IS because he was a power role. But I don't buy IS being a cult member-the mod will 99.9% of the time explain it all the way or not at all.

[vikingfan]

I'll buy that.

Vote Quagmire

.

[vikingfan]

Well, we COULD lose a valuable contributor if he's cop or doc.

At this point, I'll

unvote

and wait to hear from Myopia on his innocent result on night 2.

[vikingfan]

Oh, and as far as Coron is concerned, I want to hear more from both sides before I make a decision on that one.

[vikingfan]

I'm prepared to vote mathcam but want to hear his roleclaim first.

[vikingfan]

Let me respond to this.

First,

Does no one else see this? The argument for Quagmire being a cult member with MoS is extremely strong, in my opinion. If MoS had thought he was going to die if he claimed cult leader, he would have claimed something else. Since he decided to claim cult leader, why would he knowingly choose two sources that would refute his claim? It just doesn't make any sense.

In my mind, the reason Maximus did so is because he didn't want to expose his two recruits(assuming he in reality recruited differently to two different sources). He knew he would be exposed as a cult recruiter by Yaw when his deathscene was posted, so he claimed a less scummy version of that and then picked two names out of random and hoped for the best.

Is it the best solution? No, but I don't have a better idea. We already know for sure that he was not successful in recruiting IS(if he even did). Furthermore, IS himself said that Maximus was a load of crap (implying that he did not recruit IS). Thus, that leads me to believe he did not recruit Quag either.

Finally, to those who have noticed, there are reasons for my passive behavior in this game, but I can't reveal them. Nor will my roleclaim, if it's forced out, be extremely satisfactory to you. So if you'll listen to logic, then I encourage you to do so, otherwise you'll force a claim out of me and then lynch me regardless.

I'm ambiguous on this. On the one hand, it's entirely possible that he's innocent. The thing is though, he's ONE away from a lynch and both Otaku and I have said today we're prepared to vote him, yet he does not respond by declaring his 'oh-so-valuable' role when in reality one vote from either of us will render a lynch and then his valuable role-assuming it exists-is gone. Also, I've seen the same phraseology used by scum to try to imply a doc or cop role.

All that said, I still want the claim and will wait until I see the roleclaim before I vote one way or the other.

[vikingfan]

Oh, and when Maximus roleclaimed, we were all heavy on his trail and it was unlikely he could avoid being lynched. So at this point, I'm leaning toward the thinking that he never recruited Quag or IS and recruited altogether different people. Under this line of reasoning, Myopia would be insane and thus mathcam would be scum.

If we lynch mathcam and he's found scum, I'm thinking this line of thought may be correct.

[vikingfan]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[vikingfan]

Yep.

Ultimately, I haven't been able to come up with any good explanation for Maximus' roleclaim, and I haven't seen any explanation that makes me happy, so I'm moving on.

As for the 'oh-so-valuable', I may have been guilty of reading too much between the lines. I still want the roleclaim so I can judge for myself, just like we wanted Myopia's result on the second night.

[vikingfan]

I agree with MMCL. LESS helpful than a townie-that makes me think your role may actually work a little against the town now. In any case, I still think you're scum. Even if I'm wrong, losing your role shouldn't hurt us much, at least if I read your role correctly.

vote mathcam.

And that should be a lynch.

[vikingfan]

And I'll finish the lynch.

vote Coron

[vikingfan]

Ah, now I see where I went wrong on the vote count. I counted one of Locus' confirms as a regular vote.

[vikingfan]

Why'd you vote Coron so soon, MMCL, especially since A)lots of people said they would be voting Coron, and B)everyone said they wanted to wait for Myopia. If Myopia had gotten killed last night, we wouldn't have his night 4 investigation, which could potentially hurt the town.

I'm not voting until I hear from Myopia on each of the last 2 nights' investigations.

[vikingfan]

Yes, you knew he was lying, and so did everyone else. That still doesn't mean we have to lynch him right off the bat before hearing from our cop.

[vikingfan]

True, I suppose, but we got lucky-it's very possible that we could have lost him. Oh well, all's well that ends well, I suppose.

Now waiting for Myopia...

[vikingfan]

I can summarize the argument against me very easily-anyone can feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

IS was confirmed by the mod as a Fetish Priest. The first day, IS voted me. Nothing else. He moved on from me eventually. He did NOT at any point in time say, "VF is scum." Just a regular vote with nothing behind it or against it. I have claimed as an orange seller, i.e. townie, which has been verified through Google as being available to the Ghana area at ths time of this game. I know I am innocent and killing me will only kill 2 more people tonight(assuming the doc(s) are not successful in protecting).

And that's what you have. Personally, I want to hear more from MMCL-I'm thinking he must have some stronge suspicions

As far as revealing, let's wait one more day. Assume worst case scenario and we lynch someone pro-town and 2 more pro-town people die tonight. Then that leaves us with 10 people. Assuming none of the above 3 were investigated by Myopia and Myopia survives(a reasonable assumption assuming the doc protects him), he would then have 5 investigations and only 5 others left. At that point in time, there would be too many innocents to kill off right away, and our odds of killing a killer would be 2-5. Pretty good odds, even without considering scummy behavior. Anything I'm missing?

[vikingfan]

For now, I'm willing to follow MMCL and see where it leads.

vote nonny

As far as IS, it is IS, after all. I've seen him make the same type of votes in other games as well.(he's playing almost the same way in Mini 159, for instance) It's no assurance of my being scummy.

[vikingfan]

Out of curiousity, MMCL, what exactly was your reasoning for voting nonny?

Unvote nonny

and I suppose

vote olio

for all the same reasons already outlined by others.

[vikingfan]

I'm still happy with olio as my vote. Refer to Mini 159 as an example of how IS plays as cop and declares his role(see page 9)

[vikingfan]

I'm still happy with my olio vote and have no inclination at this time to put it elsewhere. But I think those on the fence about Olio need to come down off the fence and declare where they stand in regard to him because he seems to be the dominant bandwagon right now. Let's either lynch him or move on-we've been stuck here for awhile.

[vikingfan]

All right, now I know olio is scum, because I know I am absolutely innocent due to my PM. I am an unqualified townie. I'm hoping we can lynch olio correctly rather than sacrificing me, having 2 deaths(in all likelihood), and then lynching olio(and having at least one more death the next night).

Besides, that role just seems a little too powerful for this game.

[vikingfan]

Yep, Maximumum is the drummer.

The only possible reason he withheld the names of his targets is he didn't want to be contradicted.

You don't think mafia would like to know all the innocent people so they can try to get the doc?

Vikingfan, if you are plain orange seller townie (yeah, right), why are you so reluctant to sacrifice yourself? One townie for one scum is good ratio in my opinion from the towns point of view, especially when there's still plenty of players left.

Like Quailman said, I'm townie who got results for IS's night-choices, but Dranko's point is very valid. I still have hard time to believe there are 3 cops plus one cop-related role in the game. So far all the mafia Myopia has presented to us has been from Fanti Asafo.

Logic. It's not just a straight one mafia for one scum trade-I'd do that in a heartbeat. But you're forgetting something here-the consequent night deaths that can be made. Say Olio was scum(hypothetically, mind you, though with others chipping in), and you lynch me and discover, correctly, that I am townie. But that means that Olio can make a kill that night, so that's likelyl one

more

pro-town role dead-barring killing an opposing mafia or a doc's lucky protect. That's at least one more protown death than necessary, not to mention if olio can talk his way out of his erroneous result, that enables him to keep moving on.

Personally, though, I'm starting to wonder here. 4 cops seems a little much for this game. If we really do, we've seen already we have at least one godfather, and probably two (one for the opposing mafia as well). There's gotta be something more to give the mafias a fair chance.

[vikingfan]

Oh, I would agree that in theory, I'm the right play. Here's my question though-we've got 4 cops, all verified(supposedly anyway). What would Yaw, an experienced mod, do to give the 2 mafias a chance, especially since Locus was able to find a mafia godfather. I would guess that either we have more immune mafia to investigations, OR we have more mafia than 6 and then the maifa would rely on numbers to win.

BTW, let me just say now for the record that I am not a cultist either.

[vikingfan]

Vikingfan, I haven't forgotten night-kills. So far we've had 2 kills maximum per night. At the moment we have 13 players. In your scenario in the worst case we'd start with 10 players tomorrow and one sure scum among them. And we could even get a result of somekind from Myopia's investigations. If you are a townie you shouldn't have any trouble with those odds.

Not quite. We also probably have 2 cultists.

In any case, I don't see why I need to sacrifice myself. Maybe from others I might take the recommendation, but there's no need. Besides, there's still coolbot's recommendation.

If enough people think it's worthwhile, they'll put the votes on. So far, we're not even close to there.

[vikingfan]

Oh, and one more thing. Olio, are you guaranteed sane? If both you (and IS) were not sane (obviously they'd have to be either insane or naive), then it solves a lot of things. We're both innocent, and it solves the issue of why we would have so many cops.

[vikingfan]

Thanks for the info, myopia.

A plain town wouldn't mind sacrificing for the good of the town. We aren't in bad shape, 5/12 dead are scum. That's almost 50%.

Granted, but I really don't see why I have to just give up in the game. Part of the game is not quitting, IMO. In any case, it's not my decision to make, it's the town's. And I'm happy to see that myopia has exonerated me.

[vikingfan]

Um, Maximumum, you are the FIRST person I've seen in this game who's questioned Myopia. In any case, I buy Myopia's claim much more than olio's, and not just because Myopia is the one that cleared me.

It has to do with logic. Having such a powerful role, PLUS having a backup for that role just doesn't ring true with me, especially since Locus(a confirmed dead priest) was able to find a godfather. An insane cop makes much more sense within the game. Part of the game is making sure that all sides-town, the two mafias, and the cult- have a good chance of winning. A role like that with a backup, especially since another role could find godfathers, skews things too heavily for the town.

Either way you look at it, I think Olio is scum or Myopia & VF are scum. The three of them should keep talking as (aside from Myopia) both VF and Olio are now 'plain and simple townies'.

Add Maximumum to the side with olio-since he 'supposedly' cleared her and she's going with him, it makes sense that if olio is scum, then she is too.

[vikingfan]

I meant questioned Myopia after Myopia was confirmed through the lynch on his investigation. Not many, if any, have questioned him after that.

[vikingfan]

It's quite simple. One of the roles olio gave out was a cloth weaver. He says it's MMCL. From the way MMCL's acting with the list, I'd say it's likely he has some info that might help us clear up this mystery, though whether or not he's the cloth weaver is still in question. Coolbot was asking whether he was the cloth weaver in question and MMCL said he wouldn't say yes or no.

For now, I want to see what Myopia and olio say in response in MMCL's question.

[vikingfan]

information from a mafia spy is still information!

Since olio was probly the last person on his team, he wouldn't gain anything by giving us misleading information about who was guilty because he would certainly die the next day if Viking turned out to be innocent when we lynched , if he hadn't found scum with his information ability he could've just showed us the information he found out about the innocents he investigated in order to stay alive for a while. So Olio was almost certainly telling the truth about Viking's scumminess as he has nothing to gain by lying.

Where the heck are you getting this? Myopia has investigated me and gotten me correct. Lots of people have said that I'm telling the truth. Olio was MAFIA! That means you can't take anything he says as gospel. You can't even assume that he investigated me.

And assuming that giving us correct info will help him get by is false! It would have enabled him to stay alive one more night(if he was believed). He was already heavily scrutinized because he was the ONLY one going after me, and he was mafia.

Massive FOS: Pookythemagicalbear

For crying out loud, I thought I'd been fairly cleared by everyone now. Apparently not...

As far as roles left, don't forget the 2 cultists(assuming Maximus succesfully recruited both nights). We haven't killed either one of them yet.

I'll wait to hear from myopia before voting.

[vikingfan]

How do you know that there is no one left in the family? Maybe that's what olio wants us to think. Besides, olio was going so hard after me that he HAD to claim a role that would go after me. He would have been better off not bringing up my claim so often, because it's clear that no one else was following him.

As for the godfather, I could MAYBE buy that line of reasoning, except for the fact that Locus also discovered a godfather. We tried this same line of reasoning for Maximus's claim and didn't get any farther there.

[vikingfan]

I am not hugging Myopia as if he's the holy grail. The fact is, though, he found me GUILTY. That rules out being a godfather. Look at his results

The fact is, both olio and myopia had opposite claims as to my role. We lynched olio. Olio proved to be scum.

In any case, if you thought that I was scum, why did you lay the last vote on olio? He was agreeing with you.

[vikingfan]

The sole downside to this plan of course is if our last scum is/are investigative immune.

Not if you can clear out the cultists in the process-we haven't nailed any of them yet.

[vikingfan]

Trusting what a scum says is just asking for trouble. How do we know that he even investigated me at all?

BTW, where is everyone else? So far with a couple exceptions like Otaku, it seems like it's just been me, Pooky, and Myopia posting.

[vikingfan]

Oops, make that coolbot instead of otaku.

[vikingfan]

He's been right twice-how much more accurate do you want him to be?

In any case, how would one explain the no kill result? Clearly, the mafia probably wanted to go after Myopia but he was protected. That indicates to me that the mafia knows Myopia is pro-town.

[vikingfan]

Not really. There are other possibilities. For example, someone could have a natural night-kill immunity. Or choosing to no-kill.

How the heck do we know that olio tried to investigate me at all? Your whole scenario rests on the word of a Mafia!!! I've been fending off attackers all game and pretty much everyone has believed me so far-including Myopia and MMCL. You're metagaming, always a dangerous practice. We were doing this with Maximus and most of us still can't figure out his game-but we know that he was scum.

As for numbers, there is no guarantee whatsoever that we have 3 members of a tribe. Or we could have uneven numbers. As for my first vote, it was a random vote, nothing more or less.

As for being godfather, you're forgetting one critical fact: myopia got me GUILTY! Remember, there's a good chance that we would never have discovered that myopia was insane at all-most insane cops get killed early on. If Myopia got me guilty and we had lynched me on that basis and I had actually been scum, then that would have made him sane. Godfathers are usually innocent.

I'm going to give Pooky a big fat

FOS

here. I doubt he's scum, but I can see him being a cultist.

[vikingfan]

Not really. Since, Myopia is insane, I would expect him to find the godfather as “guilty”.

We know that now. But ask yourself this: if Myopia had investigated the godfather day one, it would have been innocent. Remember, if we had lynched the godfather day one on Myopia's investigation that the godfather was guilty-that would have made him a sane cop, which we all know he isn't. So he must be innocent.

[vikingfan]

I notice much of your theory rests on the thinking that he was the last one of his party. What if he wasn't? We don't know.

[vikingfan]

I don't know but I dislike Pooky's playstytle and the way he's defending his case

Assasin, what part of my playstyle and case defense do you not like? Is it because I've been posting actively this day unlike you? Is it because my arguments have logic in them that scares you? Is it because I put forth my suspicions with well founded reasoning and issue rebuttals when others question me? Is it because when someone believes there's something wrong with my case that I take the time to write a response to them?

Is it because I post in a way that makes logical coherent sense?

Assasin, instead of accusing me in broad generalities, why don't you just quote what part of my posts today seems scummy to you and state some logical reasoning why it seems scummy?

Don't forget the possibility of cultist, though for now, I'm inclined to put the label of misguided pro-town player on you. Metagaming is always a bad play-we tried figuring out Maximus and couldn't do it.

I can buy that line of reasoning outlined above against Dranko.

Vote Dranko

[vikingfan]

Alright, I'm giving everyone a big fat I-Told-You-So(specifically, mathcam, olio-though olio was justifiable because he was scum- Pooky, and Maximumum).

Thanks to Myopia, Coolbot, etc, for sticking by me the whole game.

[vikingfan]

Yep.

In any case, it was a great game. I'm surprised that I survived all the way through considering how many people I had to fend off. Great game Yaw!

Not bad either with the lynches-we finished in pretty much the minimum amount of time