Mafia 97 - Day Night Mafia, Game Over

[nhammen]

Vote: Snow White

Because it's summer at the moment.

How do you know she isn't in the Southern Hemisphere, where it is Winter?

Also, you misspelled Covenant.

Vote: BloodCovenent

[nhammen]

Actually, my vote on you is because it is the random voting stage, and so reasons are supposed to be funny. This was my attempt at humor. Thank you so much for defusing the joke.

[nhammen]

was a bandwagon that necessary so early? getting out of the random voting stage when you were only the 4th person posting?

It has to happen sometime. I still fail to see how a second vote on someone is the equivalent of a bandwagon. Perhaps I just have a different perspective. Also, I did not bring us out of the RVS as both you and Scott are saying. I merely nudged it in that direction.

I think it is somewhat hypocritical for you to be harping on me about "bandwagoning" but ignoring those who voted Blood up. Why are you not commenting on that?

QED!

I find Konowa's explanation perfectly valid, because that is why I placed a second vote on Blood. I just gave a joke reason along with my vote. And look at how successful it was! People are talking about the response that Blood gave to my vote.

(I guess what this means is: Konowa, for future reference, if you don't want to appear scummy, add a random reason to your not so random vote)

[nhammen]

Didn't see this when I posted:

Thank you DIDO. o_O

What is wrong with a second vote? It takes like 10 to lynch. If it had a random reason, would it cause discussion? Not as much, that's for sure.

Exactly! I was a second vote, and there was no discussion about me. The people targeting Konowa look very suspicious. Also, part of the reason it is good to place a second vote on someone during RVS is to see who will join in for the third, so

FOS: CJMiller

. I'm not placing a vote or FOS on Platypus_Dude, even though he is the third on the Blood wagon because this post of his makes too much sense. MonkeyMan576 as the fourth vote looks a little suspicious, and then the fifth vote is *drumroll*

Unvote
Vote: BloodCovenent

Again!?!?

Unvote Vote: CJMiller

CJMiller is the third vote on Wiirdo and the fifth on BloodCovenent
Is wagoning like this his meta?

Vote: MM

I see no overeaction.

Have you actually read his posts? He admits to overreacting.

Agree with Empking, and want to see where Monkey thinks that Blood admits to overreacting. Oh yeah,

FOS: MonkeyMan576

[nhammen]

Monkey is tunneling Blood pretty hard. Especially for page 4. And he's taking quotes out of context really bad. I'm not sure if he is scum or just dumb town, so I still have my FOS on him. CJs wagoning is still the scummiest thing I have seen so far though. I also think Kise is mildly scummy, but its probably nothing.

[nhammen]

FoS

nhammen for IIOA.

What's IIOA?

[nhammen]

The only mention in the wiki is in Tarhalindur Standard Tells as "Information Instead of Analysis" and gives almost no description of it. Explain how you believe I am doing this please.

[nhammen]

I'm not tunneling, or taking anything out of context.

Oh really?

Have you actually read his posts? He admits to overreacting.

I asked you to show me where, and your answer was

On post 31 he admits that he's more interested in "being loved" than being pro-town. To me that's being reactionary.

This is the first time you took a post of his out of context.

Not to mention admitting you don't care about acting pro-town.

Show me where he "admits" this please. This is the second time.

I call this both tunneling and taking his quotes after context.

[nhammen]

FoS

CJMiller. Why the rush the bandwagon? We need questions to get reads on people why vote the out so dimissively?

I can see MM's point. BloodCovenent's post 29 was, in my opinion, an over reaction to MM's faux vote

IM NOT OVER REACTING AT ALL!!!!

i considered MM to be joking with you and instead of you joking back you appeared to over react. Even if it was said with sarcasm put "(sarcasm! )" beside it to avoid the mess.

It was obviously sarcasm. Your detector must be broken. You should get it looked at. And 29 was AFTER Monkey accused him of overreacting, so how do you agree with Monkey when you say that the post after this accusation is proof of what Monkey was saying?

But i want to know why you were more worried looking like a "loser" than looking like Scum.

And now, to Monkies post, i practically have to defend myself, otherwise i look like a loser.

People should be more concerned with getting Day lynched than being percieved as a loser.

Are you working with Monkey? Because Blood never said he was more worried looking like a "loser" than looking like Scum. Monkey put those words in his mouth.

Also, you seem annoyed at Kise, even though his vote is not even on you. Why?

Kise.... just stop posting.... please.

Because Kise's posts are not very intelligent; just look at him in iso. For example:

Oh, you mean you being the 2nd person to vote for Wiirdo?

It's a bandwagon because you just jumped on it. You went with the 'hip' choice and, to boot, didn't say anything other than a vote.

How is it hip if only one person has done it yet? Konowa is the one that made it hip.

[nhammen]

This all spawned from people voting for me without me even participating. What a crazy RVS!

Anyway, from what I've picked up from my quick read, Bloodcovenant seems the most suspicious. I still think what you've all picked him up on is a little innocuous. I could understand if it wasn't in the RVS.

Do you know what innocuous means? Because if you do, this looks like a contradiction.

Monkey is tunneling Blood pretty hard. Especially for page 4. And he's taking quotes out of context really bad. I'm not sure if he is scum or just dumb town, so I still have my FOS on him. CJs wagoning is still the scummiest thing I have seen so far though. I also think Kise is mildly scummy, but its probably nothing.

My opinion is dumb town trying to scum hunt. I'll give him some credit, just that he's doing a really bad job at it.

Ouch! That hurts... But thanks for the good... mixed with the bad... Also, please no more walls of text. I can't deal with that.

I do think BC is stretching a bit as I think SW is just being a careful townie.

I agree. I don't think this is fishing... sorry BC, looks like you're the only one.

On this subject, I'm impressed with Snow Whites refusal to vote despite the pressure to, it would have been very easy for scum to just go with the flow on this one.

I disagree with this though. I have seen games where the scum refused to vote when they could easily have done so and stayed hidden.

Overall, I find Snow White a little hard to read. But then, we are only on page 6, so its hard to read anyone. Except CJ and Monkey both look pretty scummy. I would very much like too see what CJ's replacement has to say.

[nhammen]

Whoa, didn't realize Konoma still had a vote out.

Unvote

His vote isn't listed in the vote count... Strange...

[nhammen]

OK, wow... I've been reading too many theme games... It's probably just a mod error.

[nhammen]

Question:
Why was Wiirdo the "hip" choice if he only had one vote on him?

At the time Konowa voted, Wiirdo, Empking & CJMillar were all hip choices due to someone already having voted them. Why wouldn't Konowa just place his vote against someone with zero votes? It alarms people into thinking Konowa wanted to get someone (who exhibited no scummy behavior) lynched off the bat.

Yeah, because L-8 has such a good chance of a quicklynch. Your logic fails sir. Fortunately for you, terrible logic in itself is not a scumtell (I have to keep reminding myself of this fact). But I am keeping my eye on you to see if something else develops.

Re: Monkey -

I don't know. I guess I'm still half-expecting him to explain why he suddenly halfway jumped ship from BC to CJM. His response to taking BC's quote out of context doesn't satisfy me, but I'm not closed off to the idea that it could just be two different interpretations of the quote.

@MonkeyMan: Why are you FOSing CJ? What has BC done, specifically, that warrants you keeping your vote on him while you have an FOS out on CJ?

CJ had an obvious OMGUS on lobster. BC has OMGUS'd, been overreactionary and defensive, and been using poor logic.

Can you show where BC OMGUS'd? I do not see it anywhere.

[nhammen]

Question:
Why was Wiirdo the "hip" choice if he only had one vote on him?

At the time Konowa voted, Wiirdo, Empking & CJMillar were all hip choices due to someone already having voted them. Why wouldn't Konowa just place his vote against someone with zero votes? It alarms people into thinking Konowa wanted to get someone (who exhibited no scummy behavior) lynched off the bat.

Yeah, because L-8 has such a good chance of a quicklynch. Your logic fails sir. Fortunately for you, terrible logic in itself is not a scumtell (I have to keep reminding myself of this fact). But I am keeping my eye on you to see if something else develops.

Re: Monkey -

I don't know. I guess I'm still half-expecting him to explain why he suddenly halfway jumped ship from BC to CJM. His response to taking BC's quote out of context doesn't satisfy me, but I'm not closed off to the idea that it could just be two different interpretations of the quote.

@MonkeyMan: Why are you FOSing CJ? What has BC done, specifically, that warrants you keeping your vote on him while you have an FOS out on CJ?

CJ had an obvious OMGUS on lobster. BC has OMGUS'd, been overreactionary and defensive, and been using poor logic.

Can you show where BC OMGUS'd? I do not see it anywhere.

Post 64.

I do not see any OMGUS there...

[nhammen]

This all spawned from people voting for me without me even participating. What a crazy RVS!

Anyway, from what I've picked up from my quick read, Bloodcovenant seems the most suspicious. I still think what you've all picked him up on is a little innocuous. I could understand if it wasn't in the RVS.

Do you know what innocuous means? Because if you do, this looks like a contradiction.

Not at all. He is clearly the most suspicious from the group for his RVS votes and justification of them, but overall it's not extremely scummy. Because nobody else had done anything very scummy at that point, it stood out like a sore thumb.

Please clarify what you mean by "He is clearly the most suspicious from the group for his RVS votes and justification of them," Which votes and justification are you talking about? Be specific.

[nhammen]

I've stated several times why I found him scummy. I'm not going to encourage lazyness and do your work for you.

i don't think you really mentioned the three scummy things that i did... like, you never actually said them, you only left us to presume what they were.

Overreacting:

whaha? it should be? And bandwagon much?

This is just the start, he continues to overreact and be reactionary and use hyperbole...

OMGUS:

I think that CjMiller, and MonkeyMan are both acting scummy.

Not denying being more interested in being popular and "loved" than being pro-town.

Personally, I'd be more worried about looking like scum than looking like a loser...

hmm.. you don't know me. I like to be loved

I do not see the overreaction. That is not OMGUS, as he is just presenting a valid defense. And your third point looks like you are trying to put words in his mouth.

I have a few questions for you:
You mention that he is using hyperbole. In an earlier post, you mentioned that he used bad logic. Can you show me an example of each?

Also, we have heard your case against BC multiple times. Other than that, the only player you have mentioned is CJ. Other than BC and CJ, who do you find most scummy, and who do you find most town?

[nhammen]

I voted Wiirdo because I don't like playing when everyone's not involved. You tend to begin noticing certain nuances and playstyles as opposed to scummy behavior. Because of this, I like to get

everyone

involved. Hence my vote on Wiirdo.

That is somewhat hypocritical of you Looker...

[nhammen]

Calling a

2nd

3rd vote on someone a bandwagon...usually bandwagons in the scummy sense is when someone is pushing a lynch.

Fixed because you can't read.

Sure...... Way to count...?

Criticizing the vote without actually providing any actual content reason.

Criticizing the attack that was made on him because he was calling two votes a wagon, when in actuality he was calling three votes a wagon. An attack that you have repeated after it was defused...

And now, to Monkies post, i practically have to defend myself, otherwise i look like a loser.

Defending yourself doesn't make you scummy. Defending yourself poorly does. Usually only scum are afraid to defend themselves.

He's saying not defending himself will be bad, and the you attack him by agreeing with that statement!?!?

You have repeatedly took quotes out of context and used extremely unsound reasoning. You claim that his defences are just him "saying that it's up to him which of his statements are allowed to be attacked and what's not." But you are saying that it's up to you which of his statements are valid and which aren't. You repeatedly refuse to answer questions directed at you:

I have a few questions for you:
You mention that he is using hyperbole. In an earlier post, you mentioned that he used bad logic. Can you show me an example of each?

Also, we have heard your case against BC multiple times. Other than that, the only player you have mentioned is CJ. Other than BC and CJ, who do you find most scummy, and who do you find most town?

Firstly MM thank you for providing your posts. But like Nhammen i want to hear who else you suspect and why.

I'm not going to waste the time to get in a quote war with BC, I'll leave it up to others to decide who has the better arguments.

Don't hold your breath. I've already answered more than I should.

I would say that no scum would be stupid enough to act this scummy, but "too scummy to be scum" is a logical fallacy. I've let you go far too long.

unvote
vote: MonkeyMan

[nhammen]

First off, sorry about the three day absence... I had a big presentation today that I have been working hard on. Yay!! It's done!

1) Constant signs of arrogance by MM.

Is arrogance a scum tell or is this ad hominem? If arrogance is a scumtell, can you post at least 1 example that proves this?

Arrogance is not a scumtell, but when it turns into refusal to answer questions, then it becomes one.

nhammen's Post 217- Hyprocisy=Scumtell...? <--- But that's assuming you have a reason for denoting my actions as hypocritical. Do you?

Hypocrisy is not a scumtell, but you should not be voting Wiirdo for something that you are doing; especially when you are even worse about it than Wiirdo.

I don't like the bandwagon that has formed on BC. To be honest, the whole MM and BC argument isn't going anywhere. Old disputes are just continually repeated either directly with the quotes or simply re worded. MM, either get a new argument against BC or drop it because these arguments aren't doing whatever you intended them to. Unless you wanted people to be focused on a false dispute instead of scum hunting... but I'm not sure what your reasoning is.

QFT

Because you haven't done anything that shows me a pro-town motivation. You're doing nothing other than keeping others busy by asking them questions, so, in a sense, this tactic could be used to take the heat off of you.

Wait, what? Earlier you were attacking me for not asking questions enough, and now you are attacking Reckoner for asking too many?

[nhammen]

Please find a quote of mine (if possible) where I suggest that you need to ask questions, nhammen.

This:

This is information, instead of analysis. Just stating facts and not critically assessing the situation = a common scumtell. It is always likely that those using IIOA are purposely lying low under the radar; not wanting to warrant any attention or step into the spotlight; indirectly addresses players by talking about them, rather than talking to them; has the "speak-when-spoken-to" mentality... basically, IIOA is something mafia do. That's what I'm getting at.

The only people you've directly spoken to have been Monkey and, somewhat, Konowa.

Engaging in conversation is more beneficial to the scumhunting agenda than your speaking in 3rd-person perspective.

It seems that maybe I misunderstood you, but to me it looks like you are asking me to ask questions of other players.

Mod: Replace or modkill. Your choice.

He's been looking for a replacement. Nobody has replied...

[nhammen]

As I have previously stated, it is between CJ and Monkey for me. And Monkey accusing someone of having no case against him, when BC, Reckoner, and myself have all provided cases against him seems to be more examples of mild scumminess.

[nhammen]

God dammit.
Well, if those are my two bandwagon options, or the no lynch, I choose CJM regardless.

My thoughts exactly.

unvote
vote CJMiller

However, if he could claim for us, even though he has decided to leave, that would be awesome...

[nhammen]

From the rules:

13. The first person to reach a majority of votes will be lynched. At deadline, it will require a half of a majority to lynch (rounded up to the nearest person).

[nhammen]

Has anybody prodded the mod? If so, the next step is to contact the listmod about this.

[nhammen]

I have been reading through the game this whole time. Too bad about the ending. But I am glad that everyone thought I was townie; it seems my play has been improving. I took all of those statements as complements. Thank you all.

Kise, you didn't read your PM? WTH man? When I get to the front of the mod queue, I will make it a rule that PMs must be read.