Mafia 91-Hell Aboard The Purple Flower (Game over!)

[alexhans]

alexhans replaces Cephrir.

*Alexhans shakes his wet clothes like a dog*
Hi everyone...
Glad to be aboard... Give me some time to rest and read so I can have a better idea of what kind of evil is going on here...

[alexhans]

just a quick comment... DDD mod killed himself and was godfather!!!

[alexhans]

just a quick comment... DDD mod killed himself and was godfather!!!

I doubt it was on purpose, given how upset he was. I bet he never even bothered to read the rules, especially since he wasn't reading the thread before just a little bit ago.

I didn't mean that it was on purpose... It's just funny anyway... Poor DDD... lol... I know he can get a bit angry in some situations...

[alexhans]

19 pages read... I hate you for those 3 extra

I read it and wrote my thoughts as it went so expect some backtracking in my opinions. Or maybe you will have answered my questions already... In that case... Try to answer them with a link or something. But please don't ignore this post.

Vote: dejkha

Not random. It's clear that only someone who hates Empking, without the scum logic that he's a convenient scapegoat, would

have killed him Night 0, which leads me to the conclusion that dej is an SK or a vig.

mmm... strange... throwing the possible vig in the open.

So you would vote to potentially lynch a (pro-Town) vig?

good question.

Um, it's an obvious policy lynch on a scummy person. It's not about hating Emp, it's just that he's one of those players that

people don't whether or not he is scummy, because of his meta.

vote: Zwet

translate please... you're saying that you can't find what his alignment is through his meta? Meta is not a necessary

resource... You can always look for contradictions and stuff.

He's much more likely a SK than a vig.

why??? because you hold a grudge against him?

So, in your eyes, while it's 50-50, you'd take the chance at killing a Vig just for that? But I suppose it would be nice for

someone like you to try and frame me with that info, knowing that I hate Emp. Now that seems scummy to me. My vote's turning

serious already...

oh no! dej vs zwets all over again... there's like 18 people who haven't posted and you're already saying you've got

scum.

I've had the sig for weeks and he knows about my extreme hate toward Emp. And it looks to me that he's trying

to use it against me.

dej... remember ... hate is not useful... it clouds your mind.

Don't forget the countless hours it takes to type out his username.

err... DDD...

To me, if we are going to assume you were behind the Emp kill, it makes more sense for you to be a

vig, than mafia or a SK. But a lot of people know Emp. They know what kind of player it is. But Zwet seems to be holding it

against you, especially after you voted him.

again... why??? I can't understand your logic of saying that emp is more likely one or the other.

It could be intentional WIFOM on dejkha's part.

THIS is WIFOM.

Btw, I think that the case on dej can easily apply to anyone who has played some games with Emp.

finally. Some smart thoughts.

isolated thought: Wouldn't it be smarter for a vig or sk to just lynch at random?

Wel, I've been on this ship since mid-January, surviving on stale bar-snacks and the flat beer in the

drip-trays. I say:

vote: dejkha

But that may be the scurvy talking.

seeing that dej is in the middle of the talk... why vote for him with no reason?

Unvote The last page has murdered my logic...

I'm here.

Vote: Zwet

Policy lynched him in a marathon game and he flipped scum; if you do the same thing you expect the same result,

right?

same as before... why vote one of the players who is on the spotlight without reasons? That policy reason is a joke right?

Where did I say my vote was random? Putting pressure on dejkha is reasonable.

Ok... that satisfies me.

He's much more likely a SK than a vig.

Wait so you actually are scum?

good point. A freudian slip or just an assumption that as he thinks it is his desition he has to be Sk or vig because mafias

decide in groups who to kill.

Okay, so this is my first big game on this site. A lot of players seem to already know a lot of other

players. I feel like I'm in over my head. Just going to keep re-reading and try to ease my way in.

maybe it's better that you're unprejudiced.

isolated thought: Poor Emp... all this talk about Emp-hate... And he keeps playing... that's admirable... I guess. I 'l tell

you when I finish my first game with him.

Him saying "my" best option seems to indicate that he has a third party role and neither town nor scum,

since a townie's victory condition is for the team to win, not the individual. Maybe I'm looking to much into it, but if he

is a SK then I don't like the idea of him being around.

Or he is just self-centered and doesn't think so much about his wording
oh!!! and DDD (who I know is scum from the modkill) endorses this... interesting.

Okay, so this is my first big game on this site. A lot of players seem to already know

a lot of other players. I feel like I'm in over my head. Just going to keep re-reading and try to ease my way

in.

It's tough to keep track of everyone in a Large game, and this game's larger than most.
That said, if you're having trouble with a random vote stage, well...

Also ftr ZazieR, image, MonkeyMan, and zwetschenwasser are the only people I think I unofficially know in this setup...

though I've heard quite a bit about a number of the others.

well. I'm starting to think that a random lynch without talking couldn't be so bad... I'm dreading the moment when I feel I

need a re-read with 100 pages...
Will have to keep in mind that mafia will find it easier to fly of the radar due to the big amount of players.
What do you mean about the setup? what do you know?

I liked 106... It can be seen as WIFOM but tries to think about different theories. Emp isn't necessarily the kill of a

Vig... A new player may not know him and kill him all the same.

In any case even townies can have self interest without that automatically making them anti-town.

QFT

Regarding the Emp issue, I hope that everyone in this game will take his playstyle (and by extension

millar and Zwet's) to be a null tell. I've been in games before where the town wastes a ton of time debating about if their

succinct style is scummy and I tend to find that it never really serves as an indicator of their alignment.

Great! I agree.

Secondly, I wouldn't doubt that there's multiple cops in this game, maybe with multiple sanities. Who's to say that Empking

was even a sane cop?

HP's vote with a seemingly random reason, which he then claims to be bandwagoning to apply pressure, seems odd, especially

considering that the discussion on the page before, had generally seemed to implicate dejkha as a vig over anything (although

he's far from the only person who would vig Emp N1).

Ok... first post I find worthy of calling scummy. Trying to confuse people. Sanities are ussually flipped along with roles.

And then he stretches to accuse HP with not much reason IMO. I don't get why Emp has to necessarily been killed by a vig.

What if Ben is a jester? There's always the chance of one...

Unless you are playing a bastard theme game, never say this again for the rest of your Mafia career.
If there IS a Jester in a game like this,
1) it won't/shouldn't hurt to kill it, and
2) you can feel free to never play in that mod's games again.

I see what Cephrir is saying in the first part of 131, but disagree. This is a theoretical disagreement though.

@MonkeyMan: Would you like to see millar lynched?

At this point I think he's our best option, it's still early in the day though. Especially for day 1, with a lack of info, I'd feel pretty comfortable with a maybe SK/maybe anti-town townie lynch.

how many people still hadn't posted when you said you were ready for a lynch? aren't you rushing it too much?

OMG, I am so tired of people saying that Emp/millar/zwet should all be lynched Day1 instead of actually looking for scum.

SITE WIDE NOTICE: Get the hell over it. It's how they play, and it is perfectly legitimate. It's not impossible to get a read on these people if you actually try.

QTF. I like this post very much. Reflects what I ussually think

SIDE NOTE: Please people... quote instead of writing post numbers or it will be really hard to read... If it's too long then you may be excused but for the sake of understanding try to leave a quote or the number and a brief explanation.

Not rolefishing, just thinking out loud. Seriously, this is a 30 player game. I will be very surprised if there is only one cop...

mmmm... ok... I guess.

PRUFT

I'm starting to believe he just wants to annoy me... test my patiente or something.

@ dej and molestargazer---I don't think the scum do, but I am curious why people continue to answer for others when direct questions are asked. I can understand if it was just put out there without a name attached, but if I put someone's name there I would prefer if they answered first. After the person answers, then I think it is perfectly acceptable for everyone to weigh in on the discussion (be it the answer or my question itself).

Good idea.

By posting we can't deny both sides information, but by trying to avoid a mistake by stopping all meta posting we are handicapping ourselves as well as the mafia. Pro-town roles may make mistakes here but by denying them this chance we are giving them an additional obstacle. The more information that is there the better, it cannot be sliced any other way.

QFT

mmm don't really like 183. Find it a bit strecth. The suspicion on Baltar and the vote on Zwets without much explaining..

Oh god.. Zaz... At least link the postnumbers... I've seen you do it... make the effort.
I think we all agree that PRs must not be revealed at all. But imagining setups is not so bad for me. Opinions and info from every player is what we need.

OH god... now Im remembering why I promised never to replace again after a 20 page read in another game... Now they want me to meta!!!

Omgus, benmage? Where the heck did you get that I was OMGUSing? Are you just throwing crap on the wall, or what?

In my opinion you suck...are we not allowed opinions anymore?

You're admitting to OMGUS? Why is this person still alive?

I admit defeat regarding Zwets. He sucks. In my humble opinion, of course(IMHO) and who am I? That's a secret I'll never tell... Xoxo goss... ARG! no... stop... to much girly series...
(I'm entitled to a joke... It's been 8 pages now)

Sidenote: I don't think the alleged freudian slip is really a scum tell (in fact I don't see it as a freudian slip). And defending players might be Ok but if you let them answer first... I'm starting to realize that answering before someone is bad, bad play.

At the minute we are grasping at straws. Lynching a lurker is always a good move in my opinion.

Unvote, Vote Hohum.

Don't agree at all with lynching lurkers. Replacing them is a better option.

well... 247 makes the best points thus far in the game. But I recognize Zwets play is, unluckyly, consistent with the meta I have on him. It's my usual dilemma of deciding if a player is scum or simply a bad player (or anti-town)

@dej: in 248 you say "You should read the thread more carefully." answering the statement that there wasn't a case on Zwets. Why don't you give a post number, or a quote or paraphrase the case? That simple line you wrote is not helpful.

253 good point regarding Zwet's actions. Why keeping at dej?

thought I'd let everyone else know that, according to Zwet, when he's scum, he also has a more logical stance and post longer more detailed posts as scum. So either way, he's even more of a policy lynch then usual when I found this out. I know how ironic it sounds, but that's what he said. He said this in an ongoing game, so I'm not to link to it right now, just in case. But Zwet, if you deny it, I'll find it and quote it.

This is true. I'm playing that game as well. But I don't see it as a reason to lynch Zwets at all.

Perhaps we can leave a Zwet wagon for day two and kindly ask the Vig (assuming we have one) to nk him.

Either way he dies by the end of day two.

I'm far more in favour of lynching the Millar the mafiaslip maker. I haven't found any helpful townie posts, (though so many players have been minimal here) and he hasn't posted any real defence of the slip.

It could be a dead end with a dead townie. But I think I would take the risk on a slip when I don't see any stronger evidence. So

Vote Millar

Wow... You have not much evidence but you want him dead. Also you want to make the Vig attack someone of your choosing that could perfectly be a town player and then want to vote one of the players that has an even poorer case against him?

FoS Kieran

You seem pretty scummy to me. I'll keep an eye on you.
I agree with 264

Yes. I think we should kill Zwet as soon as possible. Even more so, if no other lead comes up. I fully endorse the idea; always have and always will.

As soon as possible? Why the rush?

I'm not voting because I don't feel strongly enough that anyone should be lynched yet. If a gun was being held to my head until I voted, at this point, I would vote for benmage. But I don't really think I want to lynch him or anyone else yet.

why would you vote for him? casually he is been getting some suspicion in the last posts before this one.

"Hey, scum! We endorse free speech over here. Why don't you blatantly describe how you're going to kill us?"

320 I'm not a fan of lynching this kind of players just for it but he is pushing my limits.
@Zwets... why do you think he is scum? What's that nonsense about free speech you're accusing him of?

I like 328. Very coherent. Expresses a lot of my thoughts regarding kieran and Benmage.

Really Shinnen.. do an analysis of Zwets posts and if you really find me scummier...well... Kudos on the misread.

mmm... I think she can find his playstyle sucks... But I'm not sure if its scummier or not.
i agree with 342 regarding his OMGUS analysis.
367:mmm... DDD voted for Benmage. I think that can practically rule out DDD being scum with Ben...
386: I agree image regarding with dej's tunnel-vission-ness.
Side NOte: Can someone prevent Zwets from posting like if it were a Chat? It's really annoying and looks like he was a 5-year old playing a prank on everyone else.

You never said it explicitly, but your comments about how he seemed to be playing his towny meta seemed to imply that you did.

I never said he seemed to be playing his town meta either. In fact, he may be playing his scum meta. You know the most common response from Zwet is when he realizes he's wrong about something that he can't defend? "No". But in this game, he didn't say "No", he agreed that his logic was murdered. And it's unlike him to admit when he's wrong, and doing so would fit with his scum meta.

mmm... maybe you've got something there... interesting point.

I don't think that's a question we can even come close to answering. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it matters which mafia group killed who. It would only matter to scum who I'd would guess would like to kill each other off. To town, it shouldn't matter which group killed who,

since they're both against us.

WHY DID YOU SAY BOTH??? (I bolded it for you)
414 that's logical monkey. Good thinking.

I doubt it was on purpose, given how upset he was. I bet he never even bothered to read the rules, especially since he wasn't reading the thread before just a little bit ago.

Why do you say he was not reading the thread?

alexhans isn't striking me as the intellectual type so far but w/ever.

HeY!!! did I deserve that??? I hope you read my whole posts before criticizing me again.

I thought we had agreed that hanging would be used by a vig (vig looking for justice, lynching is done through hangng, etc) Although I find it odd that none of the other kills seem to match up with a japanese mafia, so I don't really know... I still doubt that hanging is a maf kill tho.

bad move... We don't AGREE on anything. We can assume things but they can't be completely wrong unless we now (and on day 1 only PRs and Scum know stuff).

Isn't it possible we could have Two Mafia....A Serial iller and A Vig.
In most cases a vig wouldn't kill in N0...due to not having any clues to work off?

I was thinking it might be like this.
451:
@Benmage: Why aren't the points against you good? Do you really think that saying one is town means that one is generally scum?

Mmmhhhmmm Scum Godfather wanting me dead….yeah I’m totally scum.

If there are 2 mafias that's hardly conclusive.
Seeing dej and Zwets fight I've come up with another idea: Policy replacement. Vote a player to get replaced...





Ok... I'm gonna ask a couple of questions to see where everyone is standing.
Please answer them with reasons, if you're not sure of something state it but respond anyway.
1) Are you ok with a Lurker Lynch? why?
2) Are you ok with a anti-town possible townie lynch? why?
3) Would you consider a no lynch?
4) How many mafia groups do you think there are? why? (if you want to give any theories about third party roles they're welcome too)

I think I'm mentally classifiying you between scummy, town, suckplay and smart. Scummy players will get my full attention, suckplays I'll try not to lynch them for their bad play. Smart I'll keep in mind that they can be very good at hiding themselves.

Guess I'll now read what's left of 19 and 20,21,22...

[alexhans]

If you pushed me right now to vote for someone I'd say Kieraen... There are some others I've got in a list who I find scummy in different degrees but want to get answers before I say anything else.

Glad you answered my questions.

I encourage everyone to read my post when they have time and give opinions and answers where they see fit.

[alexhans]

Arghh... I read the interval 19-22 pages i Was missing but I'm behind again. I'll post this and get reading 22-26.

Kinky...but unfortunately i'm gonna have to re-read some of your posts. I think you seemed to believe you were logical in your attack on me. DDD felt similarly, and well we saw how that turned out.

So

FoS SnM

So... Here you're trying to prove you're town by saying that because a revealed scum player attacked you then you must be town? You could always be in another mafia team or an SK.

How is this helping again? Evidence, please, no flippant comments.

This is what I'm thinking more and more often.

You are not DDD's mafia, but you could still be part of another anti-town faction. But, I'm not going to push that, if we think positive Benmage is actually semi-cleared.

Don't agree that he is cleared in any way yet.
millar... If you're being sarcastic maybe you could make it a bit clearer... I, the same as Vi, thought you were actually defending lob.

You speculated that millar could be the only townie. When accused of being anti-town, you didn't deny it. That's all the evidence I need for a day 1 lynch.

That's ALL the evidence you need? then you don't need a case to lynch somebody. You can just pick at random. I don't like this at all.

I agree with that.

Of course... my favourite candidate for the lynch right now agrees with lynching without much reasons.

To those that say that anti-town players are better vigged at night than lynched... What's the difference? That there will be no discussion during the day about policy lynches or what?

The only problem is that it seems to be Kieraen's MO at this point to never posit any original positions. I agree that doing it now and then doesn't mean much, but when most of his posts are essentially saying "I agree" it starts to become more than a little suspicious.

I had also noticed this peculiar behaviour.

[alexhans]

catching up done till 26...

How are these questions helpful? They seem like basic "by the book" townie answer questions.

Seeing as we're getting different answers I don't think they are unhelpful. And they give me info about how people think so I don't have to find them scummy just for trying to lynch a lurker or an anti town... If it's part of their gameplay I want to know it before they do it.
You seem to be the only one having a problem with it. Or is it just part of your being a rebel?

Inside knowledge much?

How is THIS helpful? You're really changing my view about you. I reckon whoever said you might be hiding behind your crazy actions may have been right.

It is entirely possible, if we are lucky and assuming 2 mafia and an SK, which seems to be the prevailing theory at the moment, to have all 3 NKs hit scum.

yeah... but highly improbable. And if we just no lynch no one gets pressured and we learn nothing.

Also, just because only three people died last night does not imply that only three kills were attempted. We could perhaps have had multiple kills target the same person, or some kills could have been blocked.

Again. Possible but unlikely. Blocking 1 person among so many is hard and the same goes for protecting.

There was something bothering me about this "Freudian slip" for the past few days and I finally figured it out. The first rule in the first post says (roughly) that because this is a closed setup, no one knows which roles are in play or how many of them there are. It then gives the example of a setup with no townies. It seems completely logical, based off the rules, that millar13 could be the only townie in this game and never actually slipped.
I am going to

Vote: MonkeyMan576.

This is the post that made a case against Lobster possible... All who are voting him really think that it's scummy? I think it's weak at best.

I pray that I am not brought into "A Cult" if there is one during the night. I hate thos damn hippies. Oh and monkeyman...i feel your love for me!

Millar... Am I wrong or you keep bringing up the possibility of a cult?
Hi Amish!

I hate you all for adding on a page and a half *while* I was doing my readthrough

I know how you feel.
576 Good Points about Benmage. I agree with practically all the post but lobs vote. I don't think the case on him is good enough. I don't want people to vote for him just because he is nearly there. We can lynch anyone... Even someone who currently has no votes.

(my read on Kieraen is that he wants somebody who acts somewhat scummy to remain as a possible lynch target or distraction for tomorrow, and to have a vig waste a kill on somebody that he knows isn't scum).

You should say isn't on his scum-team. I believe there are 2 scums due to the japanese thing in DDD's flip and scum in one team won't care if they kill anyone unless it's on THEIR team.

On the other hand, I failed to see how lobster is being scummy. All im getting so far is from a millar "slip", and then as lobster tries to support him and makes tons of inconsistencies in his defence. Anybody mind quoting some really strong and suspicious posts for me?

It isn't possible because there aren't any.

I'd totally vote Lowell simply for the overall benefit of the town. Similar to why I'd vote Zwet.

Don't expect anything of logic or town assistance to come from this person.

Ideally I'd get rid of him, and hope the vig kills Zwet.

I hate when they try to direct the kills of the vigs.

@Amished: Who is ISO?

In Isolation? Post 11 in isolation I think.

I also don't like the idea of directing a possible vig. It gives the scum the information who will get hit. Besides, it gives at least one scum team with one less treat during the night, perhaps both. And they will know this during the night.

QFT
Wow... the "town" by Monkey and the "townie" by lob is noted.

No talking about ongoing games! And as you can see from this post, I'm not making the effort
Can you also state why you asked those questions? And why you didn't answer them when asking?

*A group of cheerleaders sing*
Give me an E, Give me an F, Give me an F, you know what I mean
MAKE THE EFFORT! MAKE THE EFFORT! MAKE THE EFFORT!
I asked those questions because I found out it can be helpful and it particularly will help me understand other people's gameplays. I wanted to see if people answered differently or what... If someone would just agree with the previous one... I didn't answer them because I wanted original answers before I posted mine. Anyway... here you have my answers:

1) Are you ok with a Lurker Lynch? why?
2) Are you ok with a anti-town possible townie lynch? why?
3) Would you consider a no lynch?
4) How many mafia groups do you think there are? why? (if you want to give any theories about third party roles they're welcome too)

1) No. I don't think lurking is valid reason. I think that lurkers can get replaced by people who talk and then we can see if they're scummy or not.
2)Initially I would say no. If you have strong doubts maybe you shouldn't lynch someone you think may be a bad player but I'm starting to think that maybe it isn't so bad. If they're scummy enough they should be voted and if they flip town... at least they won't be at the end of the game, confusing everything...
3) NO WAY. No lynch only helps in 3 town 1 scum kind of situations were the town have more chances to lynch scum if they no lynch for a night. In day 1 it would be disastrous, no pressure on people, nothing gained.
4)I think there are 2 mafia groups (japanese and ...) and probably an SK (This game is huge so maybe that's a hard role.). I think there must be vigs but they probably hold their shots. Another setup that I'm thinking possible but nobody mentioned is 3 mafia groups... Is that so hard to believe? We are in a large game after all...

Hi Shanba. Interesting post (I don't agree on image's case though). What do you have on Llowell?

That's because it's a weaksauce case, Shanba, and I think he realizes that. Some people can just never admit they're wrong. He's either belligerant or scum.

That's reasonable.

Shanba, I don't think that Image is getting lynched today. Why not post your thoughts on lobster?

I hate this. Let's all talk only about the one that is near lynching... forget about all the others.

FoS: Zwets

I was just thinking out loud, whilst a little drunk when I was thinking about cult. Just read a game where he cult completly took over...was quite a read

Can you give me the link? I'd like to read it someday... I've never seen cults.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to ask for a replacement.

Getting married this week and then I'll be away for 2 weeks.

Cancel the wedding
Before you leave... Could you answer Zaz's questions?

Shanba is now number 3 on my likely town list

He has posted 3 things only... are you that good?

Who is Number 2 and 1?

Amished and Vi.

Amished posted very little also... You get vibes from replacements I see... (I can forsee a smart answer from Zwets)
A thing to note is that Orange asked him who were the other 2... I thought about asking him but realized it probably didn't do us any good.

Shanba's 607:image is scum trying to fit in...? mmm... I'll think about that.

Ah yes, I said scum are generally 20-25%...is this not the normal case?? how is that a scummy statement?

I've played from 16,7 % 2/12 to 28,6 % 2/7. Never read a large one though. I don't think saying 20-25 is a scum tell.

I am of the opinion that if people just hammer them out of the box over their play they just clam up and give stupid answers that are impossible to read. However, if you treat them like equal players (which they are) they tend to participate more meaninfully and make slips in logic that, imo, point to them as more blatantly being scum because they then feel more a part of the game and will likely try to backtrack and give an explanation of their bad logic (can indicate town or scum based on the quality of the explanation) instead of getting into a shouting match that goes nowhere (dej v. zwet). This theory is pending an ongoing game, but I would say that it is much more effective than assuming the asinine theories they might put forth (ie a cult? wtf) are indicitive of being scum.

I absolutely loved this! Can I use it in future games? It's so reasonable and clear.

Well... I think I'm gonna try to get Zwets lynched... He just creates chaos and posts like if it were a chat without taking the time to make things clear for town. He may be hiding behind his attitude. Just look at his posts in isolation...

Vote Zwets

Others in my scum list: Benmage, Monkey, orangepenguin...

reading 27...

[alexhans]

ups... notepad mistake.... sorry.

[alexhans]

wow 676... finally. Can we expect more of those? and er... who are you talking to? from the middle ("As to my town vibes...") to the end I think you are talking to me but before I'm not so sure.

Actually I'm gonna cut it into pieces.

Person who called me scum

Me and someone else?

you're oversimplifying why I prefer kieraen lynched over image. It's not just that kieraen has more votes and whose lynch is actually going somewhere, it's that he has exhibited the scumtells Shanba saw in image to a far greater degree, now added to by the ad hominem and appeal to emotion found in his last post. I'm not sure what's not clear about me pointing out that a post seems to imply inside information, and how asking such rhetorical questions is some sort of "craziness shield" I'm hiding under.

This is were I don't know who are you talking to. I only see some technical words.

As to my town vibes, you are making it seem as though I'm implying that I'm sure they're town and that I'm not willing to listen to anything bad that could be possibly said about thim. This is a huge misrepresentation as to my intent and meaning.

Well... If you are talking to me here I'm gonna tell you that I never implied that you were sure they were town... I just found strange that you had town vibes with such speed and so recent content of the replaced players.

Instead of calling me out on finding replacements and 3 posts townlike, why don't you read the posts instead?

If you are talking to me... I read them. I read everything.

Shanba's image case was clear, lucid, and not arrogantly set in stone like Monkey's cases are. I found it even more pro-town Shanba responded with flexibility but not appeasement when I pointed out that Kieraen was scummier. Read Amished's posts. They are also more lucid than many of the other poster's posts in this game, and they stick out at me.

Ok. This IS definetly better. But excuse me if I don't just have town vibes on people that write 2 or 3 posts. Especially if I've played with them... I don't trust someone just for seeming cool. Charrat and Green crayons screwed with town and looked town all along in the mini game 743.

, You seem to have no problem with my Vi read.

Vi was not replaced. So you have more content to analize. I'm neutral on him if you're asking (sometimes think he is town, sometimes not).

Thank you for pointing out that scumfishing on the part of orangepenguin, as it's definitely something worth pursuing later. Please tell me if there's a part of your case I have not addressed.

My case is pretty much based on your attitude but if you are willing to scum hunt like this I can let it pass.

Also, why are you seemingly dodging the Kieraen case simply because I support it over image's? What are your thoughts on the Kieraen case?

I didn't dodge Kieraen's case, in fact I called him my favourite lynch option... I just need to reread him because some voices have been raised in his defence and some accussations have been made leaving me confused. I need to study him for myself.
To kieraen:

Why do you come out of hiding merely to remark about my post, instead of addressing the suspicions we find against you, including the horrible wordedness of your last post.

Why do you, Zwets, never write the name of the person who you are talking to and confuse everyone? Your wordedness preocupies me much more than kieraen's.

It's not a scumtell, Pablo. If zwet wants to change his playstyle and provide more comprehensive arguments, then I say more power to him. If he is scum then we will catch him based upon his logic, not lynching him because he wants to be helpful.

I agree.

regarding Harvey Pew's table... It's interesting, I'll try to see what I can get from it later, but you seem to look at any question to a given player as an attack... So probably, if you do it again, you'll find that I will attack every single player in the game if I get a chance.

I've been attacked a lot..I feel loved.

Great post Zwets... oh no this is Benmage... Wow. I didn't realize. Good defence though.

Mole iso15

Don't understand this.

Your post in isolation number 15...

It's worth taking a look at, especially with who is defending each other, but will be more useful later on in the game.

Yeah... But we should look at why people are doing things, not just that they are.

so anyway, at this point, I have been convinced that keiran is a better lynch than lobster at this point. I still think lobster is scummy, but it looks like his wagon is stalling and keiran, upon reread, is looking scummier to me, so

unvote, vote:keiran

Weren't you the one who said that why we prefered kieraen over lob? What are your reasons for voting kieraen? What does it matter that a waggon is stalling? Do you think that you can't vote anyone that hasn't got any votes?

Are you seriously suggesting a mafia would waste all that time just as a cover?

Man... If you are mafia you're not gonna just lurk or something... you'll probably pretend to help town as everyone else. You'll match your meta. I don't know. It's a null tell as long as you don't try to frame people without reasons.

[alexhans]

Zwets... It would be easier if you quoted that sentence or paragraph and you talked about it so everyone would understand what you're talking about. Confusing things only helps scum.

[alexhans]

Can I not change my opinion?
I didn't see a very clearcut case for keiran, so I asked. I got one. I reread keiran, found I agreed with the case, and thought that I would kinda prefer a kieran lynch over a lobster lynch, especially since there is no point in holding a vote on someone who I think is scummy but prolly won't get lynched vs. another person who I also think is scummy and who is looking like they are getting closer to being lynched.

You can change your opinion but it would be cool if you told us why. What's your case on kieraen? You can always vote a person who you think unlikely to get lynched but make a good enough case to convince enough people. we can't just be jumping on bandwaggons.

[alexhans]

Benmage is guilty of trying to direct the vigkill too. I hate people telling the vigs what to do.
Vigs out there (Really, I don't think there's more than 1 but whatever) decide for yourselves!

[alexhans]

[/quote]
@ alexhans 707: wtf alex? You basically admit you don't understand zwets post but just decide to pick it apart anyway? By the way you do a crap job of it, since it is all based on assumptions anyway.
How about asking for clarification rather than just trying to tear it down.
[/quote]
Yeah, I'm gonna get clarification from Zwets </sarcasm>
I'm just responding to what I think and I definetly feel that much of the things he said were aimed at me because I said the thing about O-Penguy and told him off for his quick town vibes on replacements.
And I'm gonna ask you to explain where I do a crap job about it? It's free to insult but it bothers me...

Also... Fosing is good when you have a vote on somebody but are also suspicious of somebody else.

[alexhans]

regarding 720 by Openguy... I don't think is a case or anything... I just noted the fact that while I thought of asking him and stopped because I found the information could be dangerous in a way you decided to ask him... It can be seen as different styles of gameplay, anyway.

723: I'm glad about the change of gameplay. Way to go Zwets!
mmm... claimed... Zwets partner... Don't tell who you are!

Claiming mason is awesome and I will defend it to the death. Why wait so long to do it?

Yeah... unluckily he can get killed now...

@Shanba looked back some 6 pages for the question…if it’s from post 588… there was no question posed. You give a bleak summary about me that has already been much surmised and then go on a tangent about another game. Didn’t feel the need to respond, as I’m sure whatever questions you might have were probably answered in other posts.

Not going to look for your very first if it isn't 588..link

This is wrong... You're just dismissing the case... At least say why you feel entitled to joke that way and repeatedly state you're town...

would the idea have even crossed his mind as town?

You ignored this completely and it IS a question, I don't find it's enough in itself but your attitude to try to lay low and leave it be is scummy.

unvote, vote Benmage

Oops... I remembered I was a mason, but I hadn't checked my role PM for several weeks, and forgot who my buddy was... Sorry, but Kieraen is confirmed town.

NO! NO! NO! NO! Why in hell can't you be more subtle!!!! Now you're in the open! How long do you think both of you can last?

zwet: So is it just you and Kieraen, or was it you with Shanba (like in your first mason slip post)?

MAn! Why would you like to know? To give the mafia another target?

Perhaps we can leave a Zwet wagon for day two and kindly ask the Vig (assuming we have one) to nk him.

Why does this quote scream to me that we should lynch Kieraen?
I want either Zwet or Kieraen to explain this quote.

WOW! GREAT FRIGGIN POINT! +10 points to Zaz for reasoning!

Anyway, I see no reason why Kieraen as town mason would ask a possible vig to shoot his confirmed partner. As scum, it does make sense. So, right now, I'm happy with my vote.
Please explain your action Kieraen.

I agree it's really strange. I expect an explanation

MY PM SAYS HE'S CONFIRMED TOWN, ZAZ. This isn't mind screw, the mod doesn't lie.

Why should we believe you just like that? I want to hear from Kieraen.

First, both zwets and Kieraen are scum. I have never seen scum claim mason in this way. It's an atrocious idea. Especially in a game with so many killing groups. If one mason dies, the other is revealed - and the longer they survive, the more they are suspected. So I don't really credit this idea.

We're talking about unpredictable Zwets here... But I think we can get the cop to check him or kieraen tonight without much trouble.

Lobster's case hasn't been strong ever. Just that silly supposed slip.

This is going to sound rediculous but I completely forgot I was Mason.
I knew I was town and assumed it was Vanilla.

I didn't check my role PM and as I've never played Mason before I never bothered to remember. I just checked my role PM, and yes he is my one and only Mason buddy.

Its a bit embarrassing to be honest.

It is... The only problem I see is that if we don't have 2 docs then you're in great danger.

Love isn't quite the right word for it...

QFT. I have mixed feelings
Why did you posted who your partner was Zwets!?

This doesn't add up. If Kier never checked his role PM and only just found out that they're masons together, how did they talk about it during N0? I find it hard to believe they communicated during N0 without knowing who the other was they were talking to.

Another good point. But why would Zwets call out on him? Why would kieraen suggest the vig kill on Zwets? And again, they can be checked.

[alexhans]

I agree with Shanba. The mod would not confirm the alignment of a mason, and since zwet is lying, it's more likely that they are both scum.

Really? Or is it convinient for you to kill almost confirmed masons when they can be checked at night?

FoS:Monkey

There are far too many inconsistancies, what with Zaz's catch of:

Anyway, I see no reason why Kieraen as town mason would ask a possible vig to shoot his confirmed partner. As scum, it does make sense. So, right now, I'm happy with my vote.

And the N0 inconsistancy that dej hit on. Too many things here, too much scrambing and desperation, to go "oops, I screwed up". I remember specifically reading a while ago about the town/scum mason case in the wiki, and in a big game anything is possible.

unvote, vote: Kieraen

did you even read kieraen's answer? same question as monkey.

FoS: Pablo Molinero

[alexhans]

Right now the play is not to lynch either Zwet or Kieraen (even if their forgetfulness sound ridiculous). If they are town it will most likely get sorted out over night...it makes no sense to try and lynch the closest thing we have to confirmed town at this point. I'm interested in hearing both Pablo and the MM's responses.

QFT

Why do you think lynching them is helpful? Answer that.

[alexhans]

Yes, I read your answer, and I'm not buying the whole thing that you forgot. If you had a N0 talk with Zwet, you wouldn't have forgotten. I'm not really believing you. That's why I think you are not mason, but scums with a good plan based on wifom.

FoS:Shinnen

...
Does it look like a good plan to you? How long do you think they can survive if they're scum? They're definetly gonna be checked... Why you ignore my posts!!!

Eeeeeh, I'm never a huge fan of the "leave it for tomorrow" strategy. Gives far too much time for distraction and misdirection and WIFOM defenses. I do see the sense in letting the mafia/vig/SK, whatever we have, take care of the situation, but I ask you: if Kieraen and zwet survive the night, where does that leave us? A few more townies dead and the same conundrum in front of us.

if they survive they will definetly be checked. And when the PR's reveal, we will have something. Also, we will have them under close surveillance so they can't do what they can if they're mafia. If there are power roles like watchers they can also look at them and see if they go somewhere. that would mean they are scum. I'm not saying the PR's should do this, It's just a probable possibility.

Here's what's wrong with lynching/Vigging the masons:

1) Everything

If their PMs confirm the OTHER as town, I'm 100% convinced. At that point they've got to both be town or both be scum. In a huge game with a billion players and at least three killing factions, there's no way the latter happens. Let's move on and bandwagon someone.

I agree They're either both scum or both town and I strongly feel scum wouldn't do what they did.

That's why I find Monkey's push so scummy.

I really don't see them as surviving very long in this game one way or another, even if they are scum. If we trust our assumption that there are multiple mafias in play, they are likely to be taken care of eventually.

True, hadn't thought about that.

[alexhans]

@lob: so you think our best strategy today is lynching kieraen? Why him over Zwets? Have you read mine and VP Baltar's posts?

[alexhans]

You realize that I was the one who discovered lobster's scumminess, so having me as a suspect and lobster does not even make sense.

Oh god! You CAN do better than that man! You don't answer the questions I asked you and you try to prove your innocence like that?

Look, there are probably 2 mafia groups in this game and maybe an SK... so you could be both evil... Also, lob could actually be town and you scum trying to appear to be scumhunting... I find much more suspicious the attitude regarding the kieraen lynch that the supposed slip.

No good.

[alexhans]

@lob: so you think our best strategy today is lynching kieraen?

Why him over Zwets?

Have you read mine and VP Baltar's posts?

Answer the bolded part.

And also... You're giving up on scumhunting to lynch a possible mason to confim his masonry?

[alexhans]

What questions didn't I answer?

here. You think lynching them is the best strategy? Why you keep trying to make the option 2 masons: 1 is scum, 1 town so probable?

Lobster is not town. He said as much. The idea that you are still perpetuating that myth is very scummy.

I'm perpetuating a myth???? How? By asking him questions right now for looking scummy?

You think what you said about lob proves your innocence?

[alexhans]

Can anyone who is on the kieraen waggon (for his masonry claim) can tell me why they prefer him over Zwets please?

[alexhans]

CHANGING OPINION IS NOT A SCUMTELL.

It is when you don't explain your change of opinion.

He did. He finds lob's vote opportunistic.

I dislike your's too by the way.

After seeing some response from the town I am willing to remove my vote if the town feels it's for the best.

We do.

Needless to say, I am in favor of a Kieran or lobster lynch, but don't want to flip back and forth every time someone decides to abandon a wagon.

Do what you want... I still find you scummier than lob.

I still don't believe your claim. Seriously, all you have to back up that is an somewhat foul alibi. But, it's also true what you say. But, take this into account:

-A cop is dead, so I'm not sure that we might have another cop/sane cop.
-A tracker/watcher chance is also possible, but I believe they can only tell a scum had a night action if he or she performs the killing or uses another action (though, I might be wrong).
-A vig may not kill you since he or she may believe that you're truly masons.
-The mafia groups/sk don't necessarily have to kill any of you.

So, you say that I don't get what you're saying, but the point is that you're just asking to forget your lynch just because the chance that you might be town, when we (or at least I) don't have the certain to it. Also, Kieraen, I was suspicious of you before you even claimed, so that's a plus for my vote (and also why I'm voting for him and not zwet).

So... you consider that lynching one of them is good strategy in your opinion? Let's stop scumhunting?
Remember who we are talking about... Zwets and Kieraen already had scummy things... We have them in the spotlight. We don't need to lynch them now. If it came to it, we can lynch them later. But you're all trying to push a waggon on them (especially kieraen, wich I find really scummy because zwet's is much more chaotic and hard to read.) and forget about everyone else.

Shanba, as I said, your case on Image is not good enough for me.

[alexhans]

So you're ok with lynching Kieraen? (I can't ask you this many more times so please answer me)

[alexhans]

alex's Ultra Mega Mega Wallposts make my eyes hurt, and to be blunt I didn't read them and really don't want to in the near future. If you could summarize with one or two sentences, or condense it with a tl;dr at the end, please do. That said, I don't see you as anti-Town atm.

Dude... They're not that long (but the first one that covers 19 pages of gameplay) and are basically little sentences after quotes (to make it understandable) so I don't see what is the problem.

This post will kinda be done chronologically catching me up.

That's me, that's what I do, That's me, etc. (see scary movie 3)

Alright so on the side alexhans just seems dick…so aggressive and demanding in his posts. Doesn’t like the way people answer his questions if they aren’t the way he wants them answered.

Thanks for the free insult. I just don't like people who are tryin to lynch possible masons without thinking what's better for town. I wanna make it clear to them and ask their reasons. If you don't like it then it's your problem. I'm not letting town lynch so wrongly.

Zwet and Kieraen actually are masons, I'd rather waste Kieraen to figure it out.

Lobster says he’s impartial to it and would simply rather test on Kierean…how isn’t that an answer?

where does it say he is impartial? he chooses kieraen without saying why... Also... he answered to my questions saying that.

2) Anyone who is anti-town is clearly not a benefit to this game.

So... why not Zwets over kieraen? That's my question.

Omg.. he answers it good enough in the post right before this. If you just read his summary, its anti-kierean.

Yes. But my point, I can't stress this enough, is that it isn't good strategy to lynch them now.

Do you seriously believe that in a game of 34 players a scum team can claim masons and see the endgame?

LYNCHING CONFIRMABLE TOWN D1 IS NOT COOL

Couldn't agree more.
I agree with Vi regarding that it's a stupid gamble and if true. Will not succeed.
862 by Zwets: I agree.

I have some massive suspicions now in Shinnin, Lobster, Pablo and MM, as the logic they used was so obviously flawed. I believe it came from they're mafia aligment wanting to lynch anyone role, and them forgetting they are pretending to be an uninformed majority.

That's what I suspect too. Don't forget Benmage.

I think we should lynch one, to confirm the other. It doesn’t even have to be zwet anymore. He’s been playing significantly better…But that could be a scum tell!

This is EXACTLY the kind of scummy attitude that makes me wanna lynch you. lynch one to confirm the other? That's anti town. And you suggest kieraen because Zwets is playing better, but it could be a scum tell? lol. first scum would prefer kieraen because Zwets is a wild dog and he can be pretty unhelpful, then you say that Zwets could be scum for playing better? We all called him off for playing badly and now that he starts playing better there are some people that want to make this appear scummy?

More FoS to you Benmage

.

I'd like Benmage's lynch or a Monkey's lynch. I AM voting for Benmage. Anyone who want's to can review his play and jump on this waggon.

I'm willing to give lob more time because the only scummy thing he's done IMO is his vote on kieraen for masonry and he recognized it was wrong.

oh... kieraen makes good points about Shinnen and maybe I'd jump on that waggon.

unvote:
Vote: Lobster

I don't agree with the logic that zwet and kieran aren't scum, but i've always thought lobster was scummy(heck, I was the one who figured it out first)

mmmm... oportunistic now? your case on lob was a supposed slip... What do you think about Benamge?

[alexhans]

*facepalm* (first time I've used it)

He chooses Kierean in this logic. If he can kill either A or B to discover C. A being Zwet, B being Kierean and C being their allegiance, He’d rather kill B.

Why B and not A? if A has been more anti town?

….Said my post was done chronologically catching me up… This was an earlier sentiment. By the end I am not for seeing either lynched today.

I know. I just wanted you to know how I felt.
Anyway,

unvote, Vote Monkey

[alexhans]

I agree with Shanba. The mod would not confirm the alignment of a mason, and since zwet is lying, it's more likely that they are both scum.

How'd you know he's lying?

It's an assumption based on my belief that I don't think the mod would confirm the alignment of a mason.

Ok... Monkey... But why do you believe that?

Masons are a group,

usually

all on the Pro-Town side, that know each other to be innocent.

How many games with mafia masons have you seen?
Seriously, I think it is not entirely impossible, just highly improbable. I would just appreciate any links that you can give me where there are mafia masons so I can have a look at them. And since nobody answered me why kieraen over Zwets I'll give you the only satisfiying answer that you could've given me... Zwets claimed and Kieraen agreed. If there was really a mafia mason it should be kieraen (Although I doubt it) because no mafia mason would claim hi masonry (as no scum would pretend to be mason and succeed).

[alexhans]

I still prefer a Benmage or Monkey lynch but I don't like your appeal to emotion man... Keep digging, keep defending, keep attacking, So we have more info if they finally lynch you. Remember, although you can die in a game, if town wins at the end then you still win(IF you're town, of course).

[alexhans]

APPEAL TO EMOTION!!!

mmm... back to typical Zwets... I saw this coming.

[alexhans]

I enjoy the reactions...and when I flip town, what happens to your beautiful logic?

And this sucks man... Same as lobster. Don't just appeal to emotion. Defend yourself. Make cases. DO SOMETHING. Don't just act like a bitter townie.

[alexhans]

You are playing a different game than we are, Ben.

That a decent analysis...why must I conform to the 'standard' game play... my style may prove beneficial..we will see.

That's what a bad player who can't defend himself says... What do you think? That we will obviously pick players from your waggon to lynch tomorrow if you flip town? That's nonsense.

[alexhans]

Aren't you the same person who randomly said something along the lines of "Oh, I hope there isn't a cult recruiter"???

I believe that was millar...

[alexhans]

Vi wasn't refering to just your 14 player comment (wich I found true, it's silly to assume we will be able to spot easyly scum for being on a town waggon)
It's all a decent defense until this:

Maybe, trying to save your scumbuddy's back? Because, I believe this would be the second time (IIRC, you encouraged me to stop voting for Ben the first time to join the lobster wagon).

FoS: Vi

Why accuse him unfounded? Isn't that some kind of OMGUS Fos?

[alexhans]

Shinnen.... You'll have to do better than that to convince me... Your gameplay and supporting of wichever waggon suits you best is scummy... maybe it's not a strong case but it's worthy of note,

[alexhans]

@alexhans: Where is your vote?

Right now? On Monkey.

[alexhans]

@alexhans: Where is your vote?

Right now? On Monkey.

Not bad...
But would you like to change it?

To whom and why? I think Monkey has been scummy.

Cutting to the chase--I'm wagoning S&M-scum. We've got a better chance hitting scum with him than the Carousel of Village People Idiots we've got occupying everyone's attention.

While they are a lot of worthy candidates for a lynch I want the people who is missing to post their opinions about what has been going on lately. (For Example: Millar, dej, the replacements, etc etc)
If I have time tomorrow I'll try to see how many post has each person (without taking content or quality into consideration). It's really easy... just look at the number in their last post in Isolation... If someone like Harvey_pew want to do it for me that would be wonderful.

[alexhans]

Why tell him what to do? Why give him advice? He can play for himself.

Well... I don't like lynching anti-town town players so If (they indeed are town players) could use my advice.

MOD WE GETTING A DEADLINE

Are you fishing for a deadline here?

Like, you're never done that before, hypocrite. So, I say one comment that for you says nothing, and I'm suspicious? Kind of reaching, isn't it?

The "14 waggon" issue is not a part of my case (I agree with it) and a small part in Vi's, But you're trying to make it much more than it is so we all think that he attacked you for nothing.

So, I don't really see his case, and thus I find it suspicious to push a case like that based on sand. So, I investigated a little, and found him a bit suspicious

Shinnen's behavior in this game has been somewhat similar to the other game I played with her where she was scum. I find it incredibly scummy that, instead of defending herself, she instead tries to put suspicion on her attacker. That's a scummy way of defence.

mmmm... Seems like Shinnen's MO all right.

Vi has 59 posts right now and many of them have content. I don't think your attack is any good Shinnen. Just a cheap shot. Scummy.

[alexhans]

Shanba asked me

so, the way to appear pro-town to you is just to post a lot of content?

In a way, adding content and scumhunting are always pro town although there can be such a thing as pro town scum. However, the more people post (with content) the more we can analize them and find scum tells (contradictions, slips, whatever).

Anyway, I was basically dismissing Shinnen's weak OMGUSy attack at Vi. Note that acfan has a point in saying that Shinnen attacks her attackers.

Hay Shanba, am I suspicious to you?

Isolated, lame question Vi.... you can do better.

[alexhans]

The case of Shinnen against HER ATTACKER is basically putting a lot of specially picked quotes and saying

Do I need to keep going? Because there are a few more that say nothing. Now, talking about hypocrite.

I DO find it weak.

[alexhans]

Well... I finally did this(Number of posts by player without taking into consideration content or quality):

[mrow]Name [col]Number of Posts Harvey Pew [col]31 fhqwhgads [col]6 (Needs replacement) Looker replaces hohum [col]0+1 (replacement that still has to read the game) zwetschenwasser [col]137 orangepenguin [col]36 Shanba replaces seb456zig [col]0+24 Kmd4390 replaces xofelf [col]1+9 ac1983fan [col]48 Vi replaces blizzire [col]0+64 Pablo Molinero [col]21 lobstermania [col]17 Lowell [col]16 Ztife [col]6 VP Baltar [col]74 ThAdmiral [col]29 Benmage [col]31 ZazieR replaces Appassionata [col]0+13 alexhans replaces Cephrir [col]5+38 molestargazer [col]24 millar13 [col]44 Shinnen_no_Me [col]37 MonkeyMan576 [col]66 Kieraen [col]38 image [col]23 Amished replaces Barim [col]1+12 dejkha [col]50 (said he is catching up) [col] dead: [col] DDD [col]7

I don't know if it's very useful or not but we may get interesting things from here. At least know the player's styles.

[alexhans]

The "one townie" idea wouldn't cross your mind if you were in fact town, because then the scenario would be at least two townies, you and millar, not one.

Your argument holds no water.

While your logic is not bad it may be faulty. He may be scum or a PR but it's hard to see him as scum or PR not trying to defend himself a little further (Unless of course, he is AtE)

My goal wasn't to defend him. My goal was to help shatter your daydream. At least I can admit, that while totally plausable in the structure of the game, my idea has little actual probability, considering 1) I know I'm town, and 2) millar is high on almost everyone's scum radar.

ok... let's see...

There was something bothering me about this "Freudian slip" for the past few days and I finally figured it out. The first rule in the first post says (roughly) that because this is a closed setup, no one knows which roles are in play or how many of them there are. It then gives the example of a setup with no townies. It seems completely logical, based off the rules, that millar13 could be the only townie in this game and never actually slipped.
I am going to

Vote: MonkeyMan576

.

a) How does millar know he is the only townie?
b) You say you know you're town and suggest him being the only townie? That leaves 2 choices: Town PR or Scum/SK or other evil PRs.

995 is right.

997 Votecount is wrong. I was voting Monkey. I don't think it's a good idea for you to do this. It messes things up. Better ask for a votecount to our mod.

well... it looks like I'm starting to see what the case on lobster is. Especially after his last posts. Anyway, I'm not willing to lynch him yet because he seems to give much more content than others and gives me much more town vibes than others. Benmage for example, doesn't defend himself so you can't do anything about it. Shinnen is really jumpy attacking everyone who attacks her.

1000 posts in day 1 suggests to me that this is going to be a long game. Not looking forwards to any possible rereads.

true. That benefits scum.

Looker HAS been prodded, yes he has, but, unfortunately, the poor sap is still reading the fourty-somethin odd pages of posts u guys have mustered to formulate...

sry...

lol. Poor looker. I know what you've been through, Still. You can be more objective than us.

A perfect example of my theoretical scumtell of referring to yourself in third person. Can we lynch him experimentally to see if my theory holds? (I've used it in a couple of games and it seems to hold true)

This exactly the kind of posts that we can avoid. If it holded true in a couple of games then the probability of holding true here is 2/10000 because you seem to have joined 10000 games recently...
1013 Image seems reasonable. I like this post very much. Shanba is right, he hit the nail.

@image: Ignoring lobstermania, who is scum?

BAD POSTING. I'm very dissapointed Vi.
@lob: If you have any doubts regarding the roles there's always the mafiawiki.

So are you done with image?

Why would it mean that man? He can agree on something with image and still find him scummy.

[alexhans]

mmm... I should've said

So I feel you are NOT vanilla.

QFT really. I mean that he doesn't seem to give that impression with his last posts. Although image's explanation is great lob didn't respond in such way.

[alexhans]

@image: Ignoring lobstermania, who is scum?

BAD POSTING. I'm very dissapointed Vi.

Who died and made you God/my master/my parents?
Please tell me why it is BAD POSTING. And before you do, look through image's posts and tell me if you can answer my question from image's point of view.

ups. I gotta ask you to forgive me about this... I read it as
"ignoring lobster, who IS SCUM. "
I read it as if you were saying that lobster was definetly scum. Wich now I see it's a question to image. Sorry!

[alexhans]

no... He probably wont find replacements... Do the best you can...

[alexhans]

Um, some of this is wrong.

Masons are players that can speak to eachother outside the thread (usually in a quicktopic, but I guess Pm-ing is used in some games..), that is true. But they are not always town - Masons can be any number, but is typically only two people, traditionally, although Mason groups can be quite larger. Masons can be of any alignment - scum/town, town/town,

scum/scum, etc

. Sometimes, when both are town, the mod will confirm it in their PM, but not always, I am guessing. In the case of town/scum, the mod wouldn't give the townie that info, and the scum would, of course, know that the townie isn't scum.

In the scum/scum mason group - well, I don't know why their would be two scums of the same scum team in a mason group, so I don't think this is used..ever, but who knows. Of course, perhaps a Scum Team A and Scum Team A both have members of a mason group, which could be possible

. Scum/SK and Town/SK, etc. are possible, and in large games with a mason group of a large size (5 people +) there are weird combos like that, which come up.

What are you saying? Scum can already talk with their team members... How would being mason change anything?
s/t,t/t... s/s, etC??? What more do you think there can be? Scum/SK? You're really reaching here to make them look suspicious... What's exactly your case on Vi? That he didn't post all this babble of words about masons...? How many groups of +5 masons have you seen? Can you link me to a game where there are so many?

But masons aren't always good, especially when unconfirmed. The only way to confirm a mason alignment is through a role reveal upon death, or an investigation, which confirms the other in the process.

So? You want any of them dead?

[alexhans]

millar.... You haven't posted anything useful since april 9... Care to play better or become a candidate to everyone's vote...

[alexhans]

@millar: You keep asking for deadlines. 3rd time.
You already asked for a deadline in 338
Wasn't that a bit early?

Unvote Vote: orangepenguin

Re-read and this is my best option i think, still though I feel very wary

Never said why.

Scum

Believe it or not this is the whole post.

More than one mafia...Monkeyman how do you feel at the possibility you might not be in the only team of mafia members?

This is along the lines of the previous post.

Actually what I was proposing that you as a mafia member had not considered that instead of the third party being a cult....that they were in fact another mafia.

And there is this sudden, strange, taken out of nowhere commentary.

Withouth a deadline to work off....this game is boring me. We are just go round in circles, suiting the mafia and any others third or fourth party's needs

Look at your posts in ISO. Do you feel you've been pro-town? helpful? honestly, come on.
Do you think we're garanteed good info with the nightkills?

[alexhans]

You probably won't re-read this anyway so... What's your problem?

[alexhans]

First...
WOW... You left me with doubts about Zwets and Kieraen. Good job dej.

oh no! dej vs zwets all over again... there's like 18 people who haven't posted and you're already saying you've got scum.

Quote me where I said that or implied that.

[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1579787]26[/quote]You said your vote was turning serious already. Anyway, I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean you think you've found scum but I was annoyed that you fell so fast into Zwets. Like you say about Emp, he is the kind of player who will always seem scummy and be manipulated.

I now understand a bit better why many people think that a vig killing Emp isn't a bad idea. Anyway, I don't think I'd kill as vig on night 0 because maybe it's better to have Emp mislynched and see who tries to hard to push him and maybe gain another day of info.

It's Zwet. We have nothing to lose except one townie in a huge game (assuming he's actually town). But given recent events, the

Vig should target him

at night. Either way

scum will want him dead

for claiming mason, but him and Kier are looking suspicious for their claim.

So why should the vig (if there even is one) waste a shot on one of zwet/Kieran? Are you not only directing the vig, but asking him/her to do the mafia's work?

I agree... As I've said, I hate people directing Vig kills. And if the mafia want him dead. Let the mafia kill them.

Longest, dumbest D1 ever.

Jesus. Whatever.

unvote, vote shinnen

At least monkey talks.

Look at your posts in Isolation. Do you feel you've been contributing enough? More than Shinnen? Look at her posts in ISO.... If it was for content... I'd rather vote you for active lurking.

[alexhans]

EBWOP:26

Sorry. I really need to pay attention to my previews...

[alexhans]

Sorry to cut this discussion but talking about ongoing games is against the rules. So don't do that kind of statements anymore. If you want, you can use meta on games that he has finished. NOT ongoing. We have already seen that this mod won't hesitate on a modkill so stop it before it's worse.

[alexhans]

There are still twenty-five people on board the Purple Flower

What does this mean? We know the Vig was compulsive so 1 of the 3 shots was issued by him. So I think there are two killing groups (an SK would've in great disadvantage, I think) because three would make it really improable for 1 team not killing 2 nights in a row...
the kills got blocked or protected? or did the scum forget to send the actions...?

who might have acfan targeted...? Emp? I'll look into his posts for vig tells and info about his intentions.

Apparently we got protected. Sweet!

mmm.... would scum be so stupid to try to kill you and confirm the other claimed mason?

[alexhans]

alex, I missed ac's claim post. Are you sure he's compulsive?

It was not a claim. It flipped when he was modkilled.

ac1983fan, who was a

compulsive vigilante

, has been modkilled on Day 1 for discussing ongoing games in this thread.

[alexhans]

you, lobster. Very scummy post there.

Why? As VP said it was a great find. We now are practically sure that acfan was hinting for the future that he did kill Empking.

Keep up the good work lob.

[alexhans]

Well I'm against the modkills as I think they're a bit harsh. I think a warning would have worked just as well.

also

minorFos: alexhans

for pointing out that ac had broken the rules. Even though it most likely would have been picked up anyway you shouldn't have called attention to it.

I knew someone was going to say this... But I felt the need to warn him. I didn't think the mod would modkill him for that. It was very subtle. That's why I think the mod made the vote count. He is having second thoughts. I felt it was a bit too hard on an ignorant player (regarding the rules).

@Vi:Knowing that acfan IS the vig and he probably targeted Empking is excellent information. See my theory regarding 2 scumteams. I think we can pretty much can rule out 3 scum teams or an SK. I'm not saying forget entirely but it's a good guess IMO.

[alexhans]

Ok... But your push on Shinen's case would be better argued if Shinnen actually appeared. I don't recall hearing from her.

[alexhans]

I will go were my heart is too... for now.

Vote Monkey

mmm She quit totally? she posted the 17th of april...
I need to do a couple of ISO reads, anyway.
I thought I might gain some info from the Night kills but....
There aren't any

[alexhans]

I agree that ongoing discussions must be modkillable... I just want people to be warned if they make that mistake without knowing. AcFan didn't seem to realize what he was doing.

[alexhans]

That was what I suggested may have happened earlier... we should look at the profiles of those who didn't post lately and see if they're active on the site.

[alexhans]

alexhans, do you want me to switch your vote from "Reduce discussion of ongoings to a warning" to "Keep discussing ongoings modkillable?"

No. I'd rather avoid more modkillings. Let's explain clearly to a player that he isn't allowed to that if he talks about ongoings.

[alexhans]

I will look into this game later... I'm really busy right now to start re-reading stuff.

I don't think speculating about what happened last night is that bad. The nokill is relevant. That we speculate doesn't mean we are going to assume something for the entire game but it could help spark discussion.

Regarding a possible SK... I don't know... I think it would be pretty hard for him... have you seen SK's in such large games? maybe they can be if they have a good ability like NK-inmune or investigation-inmune... That could make things easier for them. But my theory lies on the fact that, as lobster noted, acfan seemed to claim killing Emp and only 2 deaths occurring besides that, AND the "Japanesse" thing in DDD's mafia flip.

Then, there could be 2 mafias and a vig... How many players do you think there can be? But you're right about the inactive thing... a more than 2 man scum team won't miss a night action...

Would you care to make a comprised post of who you think are the scummiest in your opinion and why (I'm not asking huge sentences or quotes, just a clear idea that you may develop later on)

[alexhans]

Night 1 was declared Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:09 pm, with the statement "Night 1 ends in 72 hours." Day 2 started Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:33 pm. This is about 50 hours later. It seems unlikely that the Mod would cut off people who did not send in choices

before

the deadline occurred. We can therefore assume that all mafias either elected to not make a kill, or attempted (and failed) to make a kill.

Good point.

Mostly, his comments have been unhelpful and unsubstantial, but it would require a reread to get into specifics, if you'll give me some time.

This makes me more confident on my vote. You voted her on a growing waggon but need some time to read her?

I understand, but I still think you probably just shouldn't have mentioned it.

I've slightly talked about ongoing games in other (finished!) games and more experienced players told me to shut up. I don't think it's a good thing to let them break the rules and get modkilled. You should warn them before.

No! Vote shinnen!

*sigh*, back to ol' Zwets? I guess.

Zwet and/or Kieraen, what did you two discuss last night?

You reckon they did?

MOD: I think a votecount would do us good. Please

[alexhans]

Yeah... but usually you read first and vote later, when you have a case...

And you should note that I was the first person to vote you on day 1 so I think this is a pretty lame attack:

Yes, unlike you, I don't believe in voting on someone just because someone else is.

You still go for the best waggon you can find. You are doing the things you find scummy about Shin.

[alexhans]

why do you vote for him? You think if he was scum he would admit he forgot again instead of lying and said that they talked about anything:
that they said pretty much the same things they said in the thread?
that they didn't know what else to add?

Are you trying to lynch a possible mason?

FoS:Harvey Pew

for one of the worst reasons to vote in the entire game.

[alexhans]

Wow... Kmd hello... long time no see eh? and now you decide to pop up and make up that he said he forgot being a mason? He forgot night talking! That's not the same.

Again. Do you think if they're scum they can see through the endgame? That he is best lynched now? Come on...

You make me incredibly suspicious of you.

I'm guessing at least one team was stupid enough to target one of them and failed... and now they would gladly see them lynched.

[alexhans]

I knew he had broken rule 6... Why don't you read the rules!!!! This time I didn't mention it.
What do you mean ejected? we don't know his flip?

[alexhans]

Maybe it's too easy to find out and we should focus in other things...

[alexhans]

Do not reveal or fish for PR's though. That's uncool. Specially doc's and the like.

[alexhans]

Well, I know that I'm town, and I know they are on my bandwagon and are OMGUSing me, so it's not a stretch to assume that they are scum.

but wasn't your case on them different? Isn't this something you're adding right now?

unvote

for now... I've just picked on something that makes me afraid. I'll wait till Shinnen comes.

[alexhans]

Mod: I appear voting and not voting. I'm currently NOT voting.

[alexhans]

Hello looker... Wanna tell us something about the game? Did you read it?

[alexhans]

Very funny, alex.

vote Shinnen

Shinnen who do you think is scum?

@ VP: Yea? What about it? It's scummy ain't it

Not really

You posted this April 19th

hurray for me, almost done reading. content coming later on

And never gave us that content. You vote for Shinnen but don't know who she thinks is scum? Have you looked her ISO at least? She was first suspicious of Benmage.

[alexhans]

If Kieran asked to be replaced, it's probably because his claim was faked and he knows it didn't work. Just a thought.

Ok... Monkey... Thats BS.
Claim or be killed.

Vote Monkey

I was afraid when you said your PR is detrimental but WTF... Unless Shinnen comes there's no other superscummy looking person.

Ah, ok, my bad. I would still like the replacement to explain how both Kieran and Zwet forgot that they were masons.

How's this possible? If they forgot he can't confirm nor deny it.

Knowing Kieraen and Zwets I don't find surprising that they dismissed masonry as vanilla. Zwet's plays 8000 games at a time. Kieraen is a bit careless. Look at his many modkills.

CLAIM MONKEY.

[alexhans]

I also encourage any investigation roles to... investigate Monkey tonight.

Wrong, if he is a doc he is going to be Night killed. Why should we waste an investigation on him?

@Monkey: You can protect yourself right?

I don't think so. Usually doc's can't protect against multiple NK's.

wrong

By the way, claiming to have targeted OP means a few things:
1: He is less likely to be scum (but far from cleared--just less likely)--scum would claim they saved a mason, more than likely.
2: With no night-kills, OP is semi-clear.

Point 1 is wrong as it would look odd to protect them but push their lynches at the same time.

[alexhans]

unvote

... I think we should believe him for now. He's been scummy but sounds genuine. I just don't like how he keeps pushing Kier/Zwets case.

[alexhans]

oh... my bad about investigating him tonight. It may be necessary... I'll leave it out to the investigative roles out there.

[alexhans]

It sounds harsh, but I don't see a need to have S&M come back... or even get replaced. I'm confident I found scum.

I felt pretty sure about Monkey.... What if he is the doc? Then I was wrong. We can't kill someone without a claim. Whoever said that was right.

[alexhans]

I sure didn't find you pro-town enough to merit a protection...

Maybe we should watch who you found suspicious along the game... Who might have wanted you out...

[alexhans]

Lol... The no kill plan is cool Image... You should be detective or something

What about looker? Aren't there other players that we should look at before resigning to a policy lynch?

[alexhans]

Is that so? Then what do you think happened with the night kills?

[alexhans]

let's check his profile... he hasn't been active since Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:25 pm (the last day he posted in this game). So I don't think we should fall on him for lurking just yet.

Although there's a huge gap between the 19th and 26th in his posts in this game.

And really his lasts bunch of posts are spam, calling for deadline, talking about cults??? he didn't do a thing...

mmmm... looking at his ISO he doesn't seem that bad a lynch.

[alexhans]

Yeah... But proving you would mean the watcher must out himself... maybe he can watch you but not necesarilly prove you are true if he finds out. Better to make some other investigations first.

Plus, you could be a scum PR targetting someone too.

[alexhans]

Besides looker I'm watching:
xofelf/KMD
Ztife

I'm preocuppied about KMD's activity for starters...
Ztife has been here from the beginning and posted so little (10 posts).
I feel Lowell could do much better but at least he is adding something.

[alexhans]

Vote: Shinnen_no_Me

Being absent does not excuse a player. Trying another Millar wagon after the last one fizzled is probably pointless.

So you don't think millar is scumy?

I don't know about think Monkey claim.... Didn't seem like a logical move on his part.

Can you explain this? What was 'illogical' about his claim?

I too want you to elaborate on this.

Note to self: Create a Large Theme where the only means of death are lynches and modkills.)

That'd be cool And there's a rule with modkillable offenses that grows every day and those rules are chosen by the players so scum want to choose rules that impede scumhunting and town not. I'll co-mod .

@amished I will post when I feel something needs to be said

.

Well, certainly your feelings don't make you very helpful. Why didn't you answer VP Baltar?

i didnt see the reasoning behind his open claim.

er... more. Elaborate more. Why didnt you?

I was forced to claim. I warned that it would not help the town.

true. I reached the conclusion that a soft PR claim was no good and seeing there are other doctors in-game he could still see through night.

Plus, if he turns up scum I am willing to give MonkeyMan a second chance

WHY?

Just posting doesn't make you useful in the least. *insert Empking example here*

Yeah well... His claim makes him highly relevant anyway.

Nice post Vi... I'll read it soon and give my opinions.

[alexhans]

mmm... good points regarding Harvey... his ISO 17 seems stupid discussion to appear active. The lurking comment and his contradicting votes are noted.

You say that like he's Town and having a hard time showing it.
That may not have been your intention, but that's how it could (should?) be read.
You do something similar in #27. Yet that's where your vote was. What gives, alex?

dude... quote the whole sentence:

Oh god! You CAN do better than that man! You don't answer the questions I asked you and you try to prove your innocence like that?

I'm not implying he is town in any way. I've just had some bad experiences where I chose the wrong person and I always try to give them the notion that if they do defend theirselves satisfyingly I might unvote. That I'm not dead set on them. Otherwise the person will become frustrated and possibly won't give me any answers and will probably be lynched. If he flips scum its all god but what if he doesn't? I will always encourage people to play. I will always give the suspicious person a chance.

I'm also not terribly fond of the blatant avoidance of the S&M wagon...

What do you mean?

Wow... Kmd hello... long time no see eh? and now you decide to pop up and make up that he said he forgot being a mason? He forgot night talking! That's not the same.

Um... yes... it is...

Um... no it isn't. I have seen people (in fact, Zwets IS among those people) to completely forget about Quicktopics. Scum that forgets to night talk (but doesn't forget they're scum), Zwets did it in this game open 130.

What do you think of image... and why?

I remember having a total nulltell at the beginning. Then, after Shanba's case, I didn't think he was any more scummier. And recently he has made some really good, clear posts that have given him townpoints in my book. Do I know if he is town or an excellent scum? No. But I can't see a reason why I would want to lynch him right now.

mmm... regarding dej... His tunnel vission and Zwets-Emp-hate matches his meta... Anyway, it seems weird that he doesn't try to understand that fake-masons will easyly be discovered before endgame so there's no need to rush on a claimed-mason right now.

Anyway, KUDOS to you for going at every player and trying to get them talking.

I just think you're reaching a bit suspecting everybody that ignores, in your opinion, the Shinnen case. And note that I haven't ignored her, the only post that may have given you that impression was 1152. But if you read my ISO you should see that I suspected her and Fosed her for her actions. It's just that she was absent and monkey was super scummy.

[alexhans]

yeah... but L-1 doesn't count in a 14 to go lynch... I'd be pretty afraid of L-4 for instance... And as Shinnen was absent Monkey seemed to be the only waggon... maybe he was afraid... maybe not... I usually believe claims but even if I didn't I don't see a reason why he should die now. He can wait. We can see how everything develops. I'd like to see what K7 has to say to all our Shinnen suspicions when he has finished reading.

[alexhans]

being lynched = diying. Same thing.

regarding Lowell. I was suspicious of his low activity but he gained town points IMO for going against the Kieraen/Zwets Waggons... But I would gladly appreciate if he responded the accussations against him and posted his thoughts on the game.

[alexhans]

there's 28 votes with only 25 people alive

wasn't Shinnen replaced by K7? Why is she still there...

By the way...

Vote K7/Shinnen

I don't want him to be forgotten and he still has to answer for the most scummy play I've seen besides Monkey.

[alexhans]

dude... I just had teh same thought...

I was simply told to PM my masonbuddy, VI. If that changes anything..

[alexhans]

So ryan, are you going to dispute that Kieraen/zwet are/were scummy/suspicious as perdition/heck and/or that the circumstances/events about/surrounding the claim/reveal are extremely/quite dubious/sketchy?
Do you have a QuickTopic, or are you told to just PM each other?

I was simply told to PM my masonbuddy, VI. If that changes anything..

@ Vi: We have a quicktopic.

If I had to choose from Ryan or Zwets I would vote Zwets because he is the more unhelpful/spammer. But I still want to hear from K7.
I think we have may have just found the stupidest play in the history of mafia and ryan had the bad luck to replace into scum.

Let's remember that Kieraen just agreed to Zwet's claim. Maybe he felt he didn't have a choice. I really don't know what to think... Scum doing that would've have to be INCREDIBLY RECKLESS/STUPID, but then again... Zwets...

@Ryan: What is it then? Did you even read Zwet's answer?
@Zwets: You have no link whatsoever to a QT?

[alexhans]

I'd still like K7 to answer for his/Shinnen's actions but I'm down with this lynch... We've been giving Zwets a leeway for too long... His meta can't excuse so much inconsistencies.

unvote, vote Zwets

[alexhans]

I'm assuming you're suggesting that a lazy Townie would say "just tell me what's important"?
That's not a bad point, but it's also the inverse of what I'm suggesting about Mastin.

I think he means it's a null tell. I, as scum, would read the entire game too.
@mole: How could you forget about lob's "famous" Slip!!!


Some other thoughts:
VI: Village Idiot therefore Vi: Village idiot

[alexhans]

No dude... I've got a town stamp in my forehead or something XD

[alexhans]

ryan... as much as I want to believe you it's so damn hard... so many lies, forgotten things, etc....

Anyway, I'll give it a shot because I don't want the day to end without a K7 answer.

unvote, vote K7

[alexhans]

@Pablo: You told us so?? Wasn't it better to wait? Now we have more condemning evidence on them... Now we can be a bit more certain that they're scum. We didn't have this huge inconsistency yesterday from a decent player as Ryan who shouldn't do that kind of mistakes...

[alexhans]

How about saying "I'm not a mason with him. He must be scum." I find it highly unlikely that they're not in a group of some kind.

I agree. If Zwets is scum I can't see a scenario where Ryan is not. Otherwise, why would he lie?

I checked my PM to remember that we were masons. I didn't check to see if we had a QT or not.

It's so hard to believe that you didn't notice a blue link... Even if it only says

here

...

And if I don't recall wrongly Ryan said you discussed with Kieraen.

As for the rest of it involving whether or not his claim is truthful,

you need to better your reading comprehension

, because I took into account both possibilities.

Dej, seriously... Stop insulting people. You should know by now you don't hold the forever truth. Try to treat people with a little more respect so we can all have fun. Your attacks on Zwets are good, you don't need to Ad Hom him all the time. You're not superior to anyone. We're all just different.

Good point, so you think it's more likely that every scum group chose not to NK at all than to target Zwet/ Kier? Please, don't make me laugh uncontrollably.

I wouldn't have killed them. Knowing Zwets... And that there was a possibility that of failing the kill due to a protection.... I would've probably gone for a pro town player or even a random player.

MM didn't have to claim until today when he seemed to be close to a lynch and people asked for a claim. That's quite a reach. Not very likely either.

Wrong, I, Among other people, was pushing for his lynch.

Actually, there is not a complete link to our QT in our role PM. The mod mentioned that a QT topic is set up 'here.' Only the 'here' is highlighted. So it's not a complete URL that is blatant in the text. So as cryptic as Zwet's reply "You'd be surprised" is, it's not as blatant as you would think.

I totally believe this but after looking at it many times he shoul've noticed it...
@Ryan, Zwets: Does the pm mention you may pm your partner or not?

I won't agree with a MM lynch now by the same resons I didn't want a mason lynch yesterday but I still strongly consider him as scum.

What's keeping K7 from posting?

[alexhans]

Looker: No dude!! Focus on who you think is scummy.
And besides, building a case with other people's posts is not the best thing you can do, try to give an explanation for yourself or at least say why you agree with it. And you still didn't answer why you voted Shinnen when you never mentioned her before.

@dej: Yeah, continue thinking you can never be wrong and you probably won't know when to step back and fix your mistakes before is too late. I had that ego problem too. It's gonna loose you more games than you think.

[alexhans]

I usually believe claims

Why?

Because I think that if you fake claim it will eventually come to light. Unless we're really pressed (At lylo or something) I won' try to lynch a claimed PR or unless I have really strong reasons to think he is fake claiming.

being lynched = diying. Same thing.

They amount to the same thing, yes, but the causes may be different.

So your point is?

regarding Lowell. I was suspicious of his low activity but he gained town points IMO for going against the Kieraen/Zwets Waggons...

And you know for certain that Kieraen and Zwet are town?

FoS: alexhans

???? When did I say I knew for certain they were town??? I just liked his points about masons being a hard think to fake for scum and both beign town or scum, if they were confirmed. (ISO 12, 29). They thing I don't like about lowell is his low activity and his unexplained Shinnen vote.

dude... I just had teh same thought...

"Oh, yeah, me too." What's the point in this?

QUOTE THE WHOLE FU%$/& POST!

dude... I just had teh same thought...

I was simply told to PM my masonbuddy, VI. If that changes anything..

I'm quoting exactly where Zwets said something different from ryan. It IS definetly useful IMO.
2 posts later (1 hour later in real life) I post the detailed events regarding Zwets and Ryan.

ryan... as much as I want to believe you it's so damn hard... so many lies, forgotten things, etc....

Don't like this post. Just seems to be excusing Ryan/Zwet very quickly.

Am I? Or am I just trying to make damn Shinnen/K7 to post... I was the first to raise the inconsistencies in detail and think it's really fishy but this waggon definetly doesn't need my help, I can pursue other players too. And I always have second thoughts regarding Zwets. I've played with him before and know that he can act awfully scummy and not be scum. But as I've said. I think that a Zwets lynch is not bad and that if he is scum I can't figure out a scenario in wich Ryan Isn't.

Wrong, I, Among other people, was pushing for his lynch.

But how close was MM to said lynch?

What matters is how close he felt he was to being lynched. me and mastin asked him to claim because his softclaim was scummy. But I researched and found the last votecount before his claim and modified the 3 votes in between. Zwets and me voted Monkey. Looker voted Shinnen (I don't know why ).

Votecount before the claim

Code: Select all

MonkeyMan576 (9): orangepenguin, dekjha, ThAdmiral, Pablo Molinero, VP baltar, lobstermania, image, Alexhans, Zwets
Shinnen_no_Me (5): Vi, Lowell, MonkeyMan576, zwetschenwasser, Looker
Benmage (2):Amished, Kmd4390 
Kieraen (1):Harvey Pew 
Harvey Pew (1): Kieraen 
Lowell (1):Benmage 

So, as you can see, L-5, some people saying they wouldn't vote Shinnen because she was gone, some people telling him to claim.... I think a claim is a logical response. Therefore, a nulltell.

[alexhans]

The way you said he gained town points for going AGAINST a wagon implied that you thought the people being wagoned were town.

No... I believed their claim and saw no reason why they should be lynched when it's practically impossible for scum to pull such a stunt and survive. That's why I fosed some people who were pushing Zwet's or kieraen's lynch nonetheless. Anyway, notice how I acted like a pendulum... First I thought they were mason, next time im not so sure, then I believe them again, then not.... It's a strange situation that hasn't transformed in a lynch yet mainly due to Zwets meta.

Letting ryan off the hook isn't a motivation for K7 to post?

Ryan is off the hook? Everyone's asking him questions and focusing on Zwets and him... I can focus on other people too.

Do you believe the wagon is worth it?

Shinnen's? I have a strong scum read on her... But I wouldn't support a lynch unless K7 posts... And depending on what he says I'll decide if it merits to go for the full ride.

[alexhans]

WHY???
Can you give a reason to your votes?? You voted shinnen without explaining.
You voted Zwets quoting others without elaborating on the case yourself.
This is your last post:

thats what im trying to do but i dont know which parts are pertinent or relevant. im trying to draw opinions of lowell and millar but everyones focused on zwet so i guess i should focus on zwet too. it sounds stupid but do you kind of get what im saying?

What is your read on Lowell? Millar?

Have you any opinions on the game WHATSOEVER?

FoS:Looker

for being null and voting thrice without taking the time to explain why he did so and casually voting the trendy characters.

[alexhans]

HPew: That was not a joke

Dejkha laughed, that'll do me.

I don't see why it should be a joke...
Does it have anything to do with a finished game you both played?

@dej: Why did you lol on that one?

[alexhans]

Oh... and looker....

lol. Trendy? How is Millar trendy? I'm voting him because I haven't seen him for about twenty pages

Millar was a trendy lynch a couple of pages ago before Ryan contradicted Zwets...
You didn't say why you were voting him, though. I suggest you that next time you vote you say why.
You STILL haven't said why you voted Shinnen (casually she was the second biggest waggon after MM)

[alexhans]

Ok... hold it right there

To be honest, with all that Zwet as misinformed people with lately, I can understand why you feel our role claim is null and void, and quite scummy. Kierean didn't exactly help the situation either. We were not told simply to PM our mason buddy, as I have no idea where Zwet got that information,

considering he has discussed with kieran in the QT

. The only portion of the role PM that mentioned PM anyone is the mod to confirm. I wouldn't put it pass Zwet to forget about the QuickTopic either, and when people were asking him about being confirmed town in the role PM, to skip over the whole quicktopic portion.

When, Exactly did the bold part happened?

[alexhans]

mmm... Ok... in your ISO 106 you say that...

But the way in wich you said that you wrote this was awfully wrong if you're indeed a mason.

I was simply told to PM my masonbuddy, VI. If that changes anything..

You forgot you talked night 0.
You forgot you were a mason.
You forgot he was your mason buddy.
You forgot to talk to him N1. (when you had already claimed)
You forgot that you had a QT

Go take some memory pills or something.

The only reason that is keeping me from lynching you and encouraging others to the same is your crappy meta... You should realize by now that you are usually detrimental to the your team.

Why on earth did you even claim? Was it necessary?

[alexhans]

EDWOP: I have just written the less clear post ever...

ISO 106: He says he talked N0 with Kieraen

the quoted part in wich he talks about pm's is what I refer as awfully wrong.

[alexhans]

@millar: Well... I Hope you enjoyed Scotland

But there are pressing matters in this boat... (Actually, I don't know how the hell you went to Scotland...we are traveling to various islands in the Pacific...)

Anyway, people have been voting you. And I can't really blame them... you haven't contributed anything in a long time. You've pushed for deadlines and posted 1 liners...

Care to say who you suspect?
What do you think about the mason situation? QT issue, etc?
-------------------

yes, I disagree. I still think

we need to lynch one of the

masons

(preferebly Zwet, because he's more annoying, although just by a little bit),

because we gain the most information that way. If we can clear Ryan by lynching Zwet, rather

than having two albatrosses in our midsts, I am all for it.

You seem to be pretty confident that they are masons.

1764: QFT

Sadly, that appears to be the case. He active lurks and waits for the people to

lose interest and unvote.

Do you honestly think this is why people unvote him? Have you read 1764's reasons?

Then again, I am slightly of the people who keep hopping from one wagon to

another.

Names & content please. You're not helping with vague suspicions.

Are you kidding? Zwet is losing steam. what, just becase he hasn't said anything

blatantly stupid in X number of days he gets to walk? No freakin' way.

Do you honestly think this is why people unvote him? Have you read 1764's reasons?

K7: I'll wait for you to skim the whole game and then ask you questions. I don't wanna see you
failing to answer correctly due to lack of a whole read. Do you have any suspicions so far?
Where exactly are you? wich page?

[alexhans]

Yeah, and 1764 seems to be solely dependant on IF zwet is town, which we do not know. Mastin is saying for a fact that lynching zwet will end in a Ryan NK, which in not necessarily true.

No, but it is the same thing I thought. The probable way to act before everyone realizes wether he is confirmed or not.

A) He does not even entertain the idea of us getting the lynch right.

You're just willing to lynch in the hope that you're right regardless of the logical thought processes we've presented.

But this is what really bothers me...
Stupid soft accusations thrown without thinking.

He seems very intent on the idea that a zwet lynch will set off this series of events no matter what. Inside info?

Inside info so what? Make a clear statement or don't say anything. If he is a PR then he would be correct in trying to avoid the lynch and you would be acting anti-town for trying to out him. If he is scum (and therefore wants any non mate lynched) then you should provide a case against him and explain what gives you that impression... Oh wait! Is it maybe OMGUS?

B) He's pointing out the best course of action for the mafia (how is that a good idea??)

Another silly, but unfortunately common, attack... Is he scum? If he is... Why the hell should he signal the best course for the mafia? You try to attack him but there is a clear difference in being:
1) anti-town town player.
2) scum

You softly attack him. If you think he is scum make a case. Otherwise cut the leading thoughts.

[alexhans]

What's the point in saying "inside info" anyway?

[alexhans]

if people wouldn't be so wagon jumpy

And we have the joke of the day.

There's a difference between wagoning someone you actually think is guilty, and declaring a wagon is "over" before it actually is and going on to someone else without much explanation.

Who did this and why you think they didn't give enough explanation...

VP: LOL. Just A Big LOL!

[alexhans]

Researched Vp Baltar's case on Lowell.

I don't think Lowell has added much of anything really.

I agree on the Kmd thing, it is compeletly uncharactaristic of him. Ztife too I suppose...why are there so many lurkers in this game?

I actually like Shanba's case on Lowell quite a bit. Does anyone have any games to link where he was scum? There is definitely a massive difference in his playstyle in this game, particularly in comparison to Mafia 89 and Mini 727. Mini 758 and Open 126 seem a little better than this game, but not a ton.

Why so much more disengaged from this game, Lowell?

*snaps fingers*

Hello people, focus. Notice how zwet hasn't said hardly anything since getting a decent wagon on him? He is waiting it out for this town to lose interest, which seems to be a major issue in this game. Yes, there is reason to lynch Lowell, Looker, Harvey and a whole slew of others and Zwet may not be a perfect lynch, but the questions about the masons are a major distraction to town and I don't think it is going "take care of itself" anymore. If Zwet isn't scum, then the scum are probably enjoying this little diversion and would like to keep it around as long as possible.

I am one of the first people to give Zwet slack because of his meta, but at what point do you draw the line? The question now is, at what point in the game do you want to lynch him at, because if we don't have another vig I see him living a long life?

I suggest now rather than later. Just a thought.

This game has lost more wagons than the Oregon Trail *rimshot*....hey now folks, I'll be here all night.

Anyhow,

Unvote Vote: Lowell

I think it's a bit strange how he just leaves the waggon and goes back to Lowell when he had stated that now was better than later... Why not keep trying to logically push Zwets if that was your stance?

@VP: What do you REALLY think we should do?

[alexhans]

And OP in 1773.

Please explain... I really don't understand.

[alexhans]

And OP in 1773.

I never unvoted, not to mention

that

particular post. I am still voting Zwet.

Well, it sounds like you are setting yourself up to change without much explanation.

Well this sounds like you're, yet again, making one of your lame scummy statements that are only excused at this point by your doc claim.

[alexhans]

What's scumy about questioning someone's post? If anyone's scummy, it's you for your tunnel vision and not backing up your statements.

Tunnel vision on whom exactly? What statements should I back up?

[alexhans]

*sigh*... read your lame accussation on Opengy....

You

Know

what tunnel vision means, right? When you just focus on a player and ignore all the others... Do you think I'm doing that because I call you out on a lame accusation?

[alexhans]

But the fact is that he didn't even vote in the post you signaled... as opposed to dej's post on VP Baltar, your wasn't valid.

[alexhans]

But the fact is that he didn't even vote in the post you signaled... as opposed to dej's post on VP Baltar, your wasn't valid.

My point wasn't related to his vote, merely his actions. He said that the wagon was stalling, and it seems like he is trying to impede a possible lynch.

Dont you think it could be useful if you accompanied your post on Openguy with this explanation? That's why I called you scummy. Trying to make people look bad without explaining and for a reason that falls short from what we were talking about:
"declaring a wagon is "over" before it actually is and going on to someone else without much explanation."
THIS IS YOUR POST:

And OP in 1773.

Great. Just great.

Listen Monkey. Either you explain more or you quit bitching when someone calls you scummy for not explaining. And cut the OMGUS too. You called ME tunnel visioned for the post in wich I called you out for not explaining... Totally wrong.

[alexhans]

@alexhans (and spectators), I think we should lynch someone on my shortlist of scummy people, of which Lowell falls. I still think it would be better for town to lynch Zwet in the short term, but relative to the size of this game, one day probably isn't going to make that much of a difference. Also, it does still have the potential to resolve itself at night.

Don't you think it would be useful to add the shortlist here? I don't recall a specifical shortlist of your making.

I think that this town is suffering a bit from too much discussion, and needs to pick a good lynch and follow through. I'm willing to bend to make this happen.

I've been following that thread (interesting thougths by Adel) but I don't feel that players are giving much content.
As it is now, we'll probably have to resign to lynch one of the colectively suspected (preferably a lurker or spammer).

Anyway... this kind of post is not too much discussion:

All ye zwet wagoners what are you so agaisnt with seeing Lowell go?? Willing to wait a day on zwet? I'm sure we can wagon him tomorrow.

Lets see what he and ryan forget to do tonight. In the meantime this day is dragging again.

That's just null. Calling for a waggon but not reinforcing why... While Benmage gets a post...

Looker, zwet, Lowell, millar and K7 the 5 you looking at I take it? VP, I read that thread too recently, and I'm definitely agreeing with too much discussion right now. I'm just getting frustrated with how long everything drags out.

Take zwet out of that list... He is in a particular position that MUST be analyzed separately.

Looker and Millar are decent lynches because they add nothing to the game.
Lowell I have my reservations (for the reasons I stated earlier) but may be a decent lynch too.
K7, I'm really afraid Shinnen's scummy actions are gonna be forgotten by the time he finishes his read.

know jumping from Zwet to Lowell is probably going to be frowned upon, but neither of them are useful.

dude. Your reasoning is not weak, or at least, not weaker than other votes on Lowell so avoid this kind of comments.

I don't really think he's done worse than any of the other lurkers in this game so far but I have a town read on shanba and he seems to believe strongly in the case.

Wich is lame, because Shanba could be scum and he would probably be pro-town or he could be town and just wrong. Besides the waggoning you should have at least a bit of faith on the outcome of the lynch.

[alexhans]

You NEED to do better than that if you want to avoid being lynched

[alexhans]

Lowell: How is the bandwaggon on you different from the waggon on millar and shinnen that you supported without explaining?

[alexhans]

f$%&# ME!

I was doing a voting pattern with all the votes in this game to gather info...

Lucky I abandoned it... I had that nasty feeling...

Anyway...

GO BOAT!!!

(at least the townish part of it)

*and Alexhans ghost grabbed Openguy's - ghost - hand and they glided easyly to heaven's gate where they received the blessing of the righteous*

[alexhans]

I get the feeling this lynch without a case will not end well. Now tomorrow we have to choose between Looker and Mastin when there's actual evidence against both and now possibly Kmd as well. We're probably screwed.

EPIC simul post.... Way to go Dej!!!! Good Game!!!

WC cleared you.
-------------------------------
I'm glad this game ended... I was desperate to comment some things...

First of all... I was wrong about K7...

I hate that there were SO MANY lurkers in this game... the 2 town mislynches were just for that fact.

Image was AWESOME! Good play man!

Vi was also very relevant and props to Mastin too for his good find of Pablo (wich I agreed but not with enough strenght)

I'm glad that In my brief stay I managed to build up the monkey waggon and suspect Pablo at least.

As I said to other dead people by pm, VP Baltar was a big suspect but there were no real ways to push his lynch because he acted very pro-town.

I STILL dont understand the lobster kill... please, explain...
where you going for a doc?

he who wants to lynch masons is probably scum

This comes to mind.

This made me lol so much!!! XD It was so precise...

And all the WC vs Vi fight regarding modkills was also funny.

WTF? I was 90% sure that KMD was scum. Thank god I was dead and had no input.

he WAS scummy... a lot of early lurking and weird, too agressive, reasonings.

Zwet's screw up as usual... that kid should be banned for playing more than X mafia games... he joins everywhere and then forgets to play... or doesnt know what he is talking about.

But, this game will hold one of the - probably - longest posts ever: this and this. And the first one was dedicated to me XD.

I WANT QUICKTOPICS!!!! I want to read the reasoning for my kill...

Last but not least...

THANKs STRANGER AND MAFIASSK!!! It was a very enjoyable game.

[alexhans]

they're all dead!! Why do you need permision??

no, seriously... not posting this QT would be cruel to all the people in the game...

If you want to hide your meta, refraining QTs is just a lame move...

[alexhans]

Don't feel guilty man... if it's the right move... it's the right move...

We all know we can be killed with a night start...

[alexhans]

I just don't think I'm that good yet, to be a N0/1 kill.

dude.... stop asking for praise...

[alexhans]

This is the complete mason link Zwets/kieraen

the other one was set to post.

[alexhans]

always innocent.

[alexhans]

At least this game shows that lynching lurkers barely helps as both scum and town can use the same reason: Lurkers will be a distraction to us later.
They are just easy lynches for scum and give barely information.

The lesson should be that lurkers must play or be replaced... We HATE lurkers...

The sicilians were really organized. It took forever to read their quicktopic, especially compared to the Japanese one. But I thought the Sicilians played an excellent games, and would've deserved a win if they did.

I haven't read the whole QT but it looks great. Great scheming.

This will come with experience, but it helps to determine the difference between "scummy" and "behind" or "busy". I took forever trying to catch up (early lurking) and tried to force myself into the game (weird/aggressive) by getting into the main discussion at the time.

As the Sicilian mafia said... You didn't match up to your meta, at all. And please, don't claim being busy as an excuse when you gloat all over MS about the fact that you play tons of games at a time... It was not good enough.

I loved this game. It was my first large after all... And I actually thought that I could blend in with so many people and not get nightkilled that easy... I was wrong.

My lynch sucked, i was obv town

are you serious? You were obv NOTHING. And Shinnen had been scummy.

I somewhat agree with Shanba in wich the DDD modkill seemed rushed. Then the vig modkill looked as if it was done to compensate... I would've prefered warnings and a very cold an neutral modding.

I have to say that dead speaking is no problem at all...

The only thing that worries me is the fact that Mastin came back to the game after talking with dead scum... If you talk with scum... you shouldn't be able to replace back in.

I talked to OP, Shanba and Mastin while we were dead.

GG to the town who bothered to play. Screw you to all the people in this game who just sat there on the sidelines and made this one of the most frustrating games of my mafia career.

Thanks Shanba ... But I know why you really lost... because you didn't have me to buss all game long... XD

Oh, I also forgot to tell you how much the zwet situation pissed me off. Seriously, dejkha is spewing a low level constant torrent of abuse at zwet all game, zwet finally snaps and it's zwet who gets forced out.

^^I agree. Dej's attitude of constant ad hom towards Zwets (everywhere in MS) should not be encouraged. Dej was the one who should've been replaced at this point.

I love reading quicktopics...



There's so many crucial points where things could've turned totally different if people had chosen one option over the other...

sicilian mafia could've killed or inspected Vi earlier. Image could've been killed.

White Castle, VP Baltar and mole were great schemers IMO.

Monkey, I didn't like. I think I said more than once that the only thing that prevented me of lynching him was the doc claim because he was very scummy.

It's funny that people always seem to think that I have inside knowledge...

Now I can understand the logic behind lobster's kill.

The codewords stuff was really cool.

MOD: Can you please link in the first post to Each new day?

More later when I have more time...

[alexhans]

Personally, I think that after the mods started to regret the decision, that they should've given the next-highest-ranking member of the J. Mafia some compensation, like a one-shot (not one-night) investigation immunity.

No... That's even worse man... mod intervention to patch up his mistakes sucks even more than making a mistake.

dej actually made a great find about VP's inconsistency regarding Harvey that I developed in a post. That should've been noted by town but it was ignored.

I had been saving that for MONTHS. (Since 735, actually. Never got to use it; all the games I was in outlawed bah posts.)

lol. I prefered mine.

We have some GOOD highlights... some I've posted, some I'm missing. The whole Kieraen/Zwets forgetfulness entitled us to lots of facepalms.



Mastin, Vi... I enjoyed your posts very much... I hope we can play another game together.

[alexhans]

lol... there's so many good quotes...

this is one:
Here

I have found plenty of valuable information for the town thus far, I might add.^{[citation needed]}

And forgive me for disagreeing VP but Monkey was awfully scummy and he was the one to put himself in such position. Maybe he later compensated it by distancing from his team. But his earlier play costed you his life.

[alexhans]

I think my doc claim worked out quite well and I lived a lot longer than I expected. To be honest,

I was acting scummy on purpose.

dude... clearly this is one of the lamest excuses for bad play...

You played badly but then resisted enough with a timely claim until you got killed.

Don't try to deny it. Instead, learn from this experience.

Also... Scum acting scummy on purpose... BAD tactic.

[alexhans]

dude... if scum gets to a point where they seem scummy to a lot of people and they need to claim... that's not good play.

And something else. Recognizing your mistakes will let you improve. I should know. So if you keep thinking you didn't play bad at all you'll keep doing that.

Suppose you werent even playing... would it be any different for your scum team? No, perhaps it would've been even better.

[alexhans]

lady... I don't need a ride tonight...." (yes, I like oasis)

I'm speaking my mind... and my mind tells me she is right .

[alexhans]

And OP in 1773.

I never unvoted, not to mention

that

particular post. I am still voting Zwet.

Well, it sounds like you are setting yourself up to change without much explanation.

Well this sounds like you're, yet again, making one of your lame scummy statements that are only excused at this point by your doc claim.

[alexhans]

EBWOP: Fake docs ALWAYS go down.

[alexhans]

oh... And specially when there's another mafia group!!!

They want to kill him either way... if he is a doc, he must die. If he is scum, he must die too.

[alexhans]

Yeah... and they were also hoping that the other scum team would take care of him...

[alexhans]

what do you mean? Do you think it influenced the outcome of the game?

I don't think so.

Maybe Mastin wasn't the best person to replace due to his conversations but I would've like seeing you try and get a replacement with 120+ pages.

[alexhans]

Ok... let's get back to positive stuff...

The mod fighting was pretty cool and entertaining

I'll look into this game when I have more time to find more fun stuff.

[alexhans]

*Alexhans throws the first rotten tomato at StrangerCoug

[alexhans]

*Alexhans throws a pineapple at Mastin