Large Normal 92 - Game Over! Scum Win!

[RedCoyote]

Look, I'm still here. My weekends are usually not the best time for MS, and I have my last final set for Monday afternoon. I will be reading everything, but if there are any specific posts/quotes you want me to see, give me a shout. I hate to set a date... but hopefully Tuesday I should make a solid post.

[RedCoyote]

Why couldn't Mastin have lynched me? I haven't said anything yet! Oh gosh, now y'all have got me interested. Once I get off work I will sort this game out for everyone.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-12

Mastin - 7

(Caboose, Devestation, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin, NanooktheWolf, zoraster)

OrangePenguin - 3

(cateraction, zwetschenwasser, Maturin24)

Devestation - 2

(Tarhalindur, Azhrei)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Dust - 2

(StevieT92, Mastin)

zer0ph34r - 1

(ryan2754)

Not Voting - 10

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

[RedCoyote]

If you are interested at all with my impressions on the game, then you are encourage to read it. I've tried to only comment on things that have really stuck out to me, but, as we all know, there is a lot going on with this game.

Welcome to Large Normal 92, RC

In chronological order

(Mastin, please, for the love of Pete, do not respond to every comment I make! This is just to get me back up to speed so y'all know what I'm thinking about the game thus far.)

And RC too! I'm looking forward to finally being able to play another game with you.

Ditto, Ace!

[RC]'s one of the best on EM, so this should be fun.

*blushes*

Why so worried about meta?
Perhaps because you're not of the same alignment?

[...]

Mastin Votes: Dust

I agree with this, I think this is a good point.

I don't get the "-S^1+F" thing though.

Cause following is easier than leading. That and Mastin looks like he knows what he's about.

Hate this post.

Hmm, two mistakes (lack of preview for image fail, and not counting my vote). Clearly Mastin is lying about everything. LALiars, *ESPECIALLY* in random stage....

So... uh... he

doesn't

know what he's talking about now?

Please note that I hesitated to vote for [Mastin] because I thought there may have been some win condition that [he] could gain from posting like that. [Mastin was] just being a bit TOO obvious if [he was] a player with a lynch winning condition.

What role did you think he was?

Questions are certainly good to a point -- especially when they are incisive, but at some point you have to go out on a limb and say you suspect someone. I can't help but feel you're shrouding things in a guise of "scum-hunting."

Love this post!

No. What I was doing was creating order.
Focusing our attention.
On our goal:
To scum hunt.

Do you honestly think that asking 20+ questions over one posts the way you did is focusing the game?

That said, I'd like to call attention to Amished, whose flip-flopped on Mastin's erraticism, when he stopped voting me and started voting Mastin.

Unvote (Not sure if I did so to begin with)
FoS: Amished

Why no vote?

Over-commentary != Long Posts.

I don't think I agree with this, it seems like splitting hairs. Then again, I'm not to fond of Dust so far so I can't push you too hard here.

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

To my knowledge, killa seven has yet to post here.

Good catch.

And I viewed page 2 to still be in the RVS. You posting a lot doesn't immediately get us anywhere, the game is a gradual process, and page 2 in a 27 player game is still part of the RVS in my eyes. Difference of opinion I guess.

I hate that excuse so much. "I thought it was still in RVS!" I took both of your votes, on Mastin and on Dust, seriously.

Your "better than thou" tone in response to Nanook, as well as your statement on "focusing our attention on scumhunting" in ISO 20 is crap as well. The majority of us are here to scumhunt. We do not need you to make us focused on our task at hand. If you weren't here, would we be unable to scumhunt? No.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Mastin elitist, which is what Amish is implying, but I do agree that scumhunting will continue as planned with or without Mastin's intervention.

As I have pointed out before (in other games), in a game this big, getting rid of the lurkers early can be a pro-town thing to do, as there are a few rounds to do it, but also removes the possibility of a stagnant endgame. Lurkers only help scum, and in bigger games, there is some time and such to lynch them. Just a game theory of mine.

This may be the only solution in a game so large. We're bound to have a handful of people who don't care, and they really can only benefit scum. With any luck, we'll catch some anti-town roles amidst the lurkers.

Thus, I feel no one is worthy of my vote just yet.

But you just said you wanted to get rid of lurkers?

OPengy's saying he's voting for a lurker (somebody that hasn't posted has also never posted anything pro-town. Sure, they haven't posted anything anti-town, but nothing pro-town makes it look better, while also being true). K7 is a notorious lurker apparently, and is probably voting for him based on policy.

Why do you feel the need to speak for him?

[Caboose's] vote...on page one...in what was the RVS...was completely serious...

You know, I'd believe [Caboose] if [he] said it was a joke (like most RVS votes), but is now serious.
Nope, not buying it now.

You don't think someone can cast a serious vote until a pre-determined amount of time has been met?

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

Then why would you bring it up?

More town points to Stevie. If I'm even partially correct, it's something I consider incredibly pro-town to do.

What? To say he has an idea what side X person is and the refuse to discuss it?

Yay for you taking absolutely no responsibility?



Orangepenguin's posts were obv jokes.

Mastin never mentioned OP.

Yes, you are the sole judge of when the rvs ends. You can cast a spell on the game and RVS ends immediately. That's what you are doing there. You are using your definition of RVS so that it is convenient for you, but your definition is flawed.

Thank you for this though. I was waiting for someone to say this.

It was clear we had left [RVS].

To you, perhaps. Obviously not everyone got the memo.

(Note to players: OP's rapidly climbing on the scumspect list. He's earned a huge -S^1, + F.)

Why am I getting the feeling that anyone who criticizes your posts gets the same treatment?

I love how you say meta will not work on you but then you proceed to link to other completed games and then say *again* that metagaming you won't work. Great work there.

Oh, this is good. This is good, Amish.

Mastin, isn't this a two-way street? You use meta to make your points, but you've said multiple times that it "doesn't work" when trying to read you?

Oh as another aside, I have already said how I feel about killing lurkers early in a large game.

Yet you're still not voting one. Hmm.

I don't agree with Mastin's points on Caboose. It's so minimal and yet Mastin is so adamant. I really don't like that style of scumhunting. It's so unproductive. Questions are how things get done. It seems to me that Mastin just puts whoever he happens to be talking to at the top of his list of "confirmed scum".

It seems as though you've had a change of heart on Mastin, what provoked this?

I like this post in general though.

BS.

Ask any power role on this site.

Cops,
Docs,
Trackers,
Watchers,
Roleblockers,

Whatever.
Withholding information as those roles is sometimes CRUCIAL to the town. Withholding information is not always bad.

But that's not the case here. There was no reason for Stevie to bring up any suspicions he had if he wasn't going to persue them. "I think I know something juicy but I can't say!!" What purpose does that serve?

scumspects:

Duscum,
Cabooscum,
Zcum_Faul,
Amiscum,
Devescumtion,
OrangePenguin,

Mastin - 6 (Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin)

Mastin, why is it that five of the six people voting you are scum?

If I am killed as a result of unveiling the truth about you, so be it, but you are scum.

Mastin is right about this. This is a bad, bad thing to say.

Mastin, just because Dust doesn't post as frequently as you does not mean he is lurking. One post a day is plenty. In fact, I would like the posting frequency from you to slow to at most five per day. Just focus on the big points, don't disect every single post. For an example of what I'm asking you to do, see the player known as "kast." his posts are long, but they are infrequent compared to yours, therefore making them easier to read. I've been busy all day and haven't really read your posts, but I will soon.

I appreciate this request. I know I haven't been here, so I'm not really one to talk, but as important as discussion is, it's also important to try and keep the game at a stable flow that everyone will generally be comfortable with. If we move too fast

or

too slow, we risk isolating some players.

You calling anyone who speaks out against you scum isn't effective and is not going to help the town in this game.

I honestly hope Mastin isn't confusing the two, because it does seem awfully coincidental.

Mastin, Your role name is Lyncher. You can't get your target lynched until day two, so you've got yourself 5 or so people, including the lynchee, to be classified as scum. Where you failed and what made me want to investigate you is that you couldnt be moved on the general core membership of that 5.

I'm still confused with how Dev got this information, could someone explain it to me please? The "Jack of all Trades" means that you have multiple powers, right?

General thoughts

This puts me to shame, this is a much better summary than I'm going to be able to give y'all. I like this post.

I think you might want to look at Ace through that IIoA lens though.

FoS: Zerophear; King

King did openly state that he does not want to contribute. He can't be allowed to get through with this.

Why do you have no opinion on the roleclaim?

You may lynch me if you wish. I *am* anti-town in role.

But I really want to scum hunt.
Be an "honorable townie", so to speak.

I think there is logic to this, to keeping Mastin alive. There's no telling who will visit him during the night, but I'm willing to accept his target is me, given the breadcrumbs he's cited. That means that he shouldn't fulfill his win condition without us knowing (if he's not converted by a possible converting role).

Did Mastin really just give up, or is there something more nefarious going on?

Are you suggesting Mastin is in cahoots with Dev?

Even if we accept on its face that Dev is jack of all trades and Mastin is lyncher, are we sure RedCoyote is the target?

To me, his breadcrumbs are fairly strong.

When I notice something that's off, I'll post it. Until then all I'll have to say is, "I don't know who to trust." If you'd like me to do that until I know who to trust, I will. In any other case, I'll be watching.

Why do you have no comments about the two role claims?

Why [doesn't Mastin] just self-vote?

Huh?

RedCoyote, were you informed of your status as a Lynchee? I figured I'd ask, even though it's not standard procedure, because the roles in this game are all seeming fairly non-standard, and you might know.

No.

To the Town at large- How valid are Mastin's previous arguments in the context of his roleclaim?

They're definitely not to be taken at face value, but I am comfortable with him claiming me as his target. Read into that all the bias you think is necessary.

Mastin has even claimed at this point, clearing Devastation, so people should be voting Mastin, not me, and certainly not Devastation.

Do you not believe I'm his target? Do you think Dev is lying? Explain please.

However, although I did overlook the possibility of him being a lyncher, I think it fits right now.

I think you spoke too fast, too rashly, and now you're having to backpedal to save face.

I do not think Mastin is telling the truth about his target. I still do not think we should lynch him. The only thing dangerous about Mastin is his mouth, we will just have to be extra-careful not to be steered wrong.

Who do you think is his target then?

For another thing, I don't view this as a wasted lynch. Yes, we don't get mafia who is our ultimate goal, but we also do not a) risk outing a power role without a real reason or b) risk killing a townie.

I'm currently not in support of this.

a) This is bound to happen, this is pandering to fear.
b) Mastin will still be around. If you're scared of lynching townies then perhaps you should choose no lynch?

I should also mention that, should we lynch Mastin, it's generally a good thing that Day 2 will not become another act in the Mastin Show. I think scum can easily use Mastin as a magnet to distract from the real task at hand. I for one will want to do something other than worry about Mastin in Day 2.

This sounds awfully different than some of your earlier opinions on Mastin's playstyle.

Why is Mastin still here?

Because he isn't mafia.

If they think Red IS my target, then they'll think my scum hunting is legit.

I believe I'm your target, but I don't know how comfortable I still am with your scumhunting. Mainly because, obviously, you have no ties to either major faction. You can throw suspicions on any player you want without any real pushback.

I place this along the scale of claiming SK in a setup, just after the beginning of day one, in the hopes that there's a psychiatrist to cure you. (Suicidal, in most cases, as you become the lynch d1.)

This is what I think zora, OP, emp... etc are forgetting. There could be any number of roles to convert you to town.

Vote: zu_Faul

I haven't seen anything worthwhile from zu_Faul, and his ignorance of the claims, which I would mark as one of the more important happenings of the game, spoke loudly to me.

Other lynches I'd currently be supportive of: King, Zer0, hewitt, alvin, 9000, Ace, Stevie, K7, Phoebus, KoC, Emp, zora, Nanook, and OP.

I'm not too picky; I think we've got a lot of information already. I'd probably prefer to lynch someone who's made enough posts so that other people have commented on them, but, like ryan, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching a lurker for the end game benefits.

[RedCoyote]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-17

Mastin - 8

(Caboose, Devestation, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin, NanooktheWolf, zoraster, King)

OrangePenguin - 4

(cateraction, Maturin24, hewitt, Mastin)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Devestation - 1

(Azhrei)

zer0ph34r - 1

(ryan2754)

zu_Faul - 1

(RedCoyote)

Red Coyote -1

(zwetschenwasser)

Not Voting - 7

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

---

Goodness gracious, I made a post a NOON yesterday, and there's already

four

new pages!

---

I can't even take Devestation seriously at this point. I call bullshit on his claim.

[...]

Okay Mastin you are such a bullshitter! There's absolutely no way you're telling the whole truth.

Both of them are lying? I can't go with that. By the nature of the claims, both roles are kind of dependent on the other one being true. Dev certainly didn't just guess the correct role, and Mastin can't be lying if Dev is telling the truth, so they're both dependent on one another.

They have to be in cahoots then, according to you. If they're lying, then you must think they are anti-town, right?

If so, why are you voting OP for his vote of Mastin?

I would just like to throw out there that Mastin's actions totally contradict everything I've seen playing with him.

This was, essentially, the same thing that OP said about Mastin.

In other words, this calls for an

unvote

and

vote: hewitt

.

---

Why are you supportive of so many lynches? What cases do you have against these players?

Well, as I said, I support ryan's theory on lynching lurkers in a game this size. I don't think that lynching a lurker will get us quite as much information as we'd like, but I do think that it's more reasonable to lynch a lurker in a game with this many players than in a smaller game.

That should explain alvin, 9000, K7, Phoebus, and KoC.

As for the rest:

King - Active lurker, he has shown no interest at all in the two role claims that were made.
Zer0 - Zer0, like zu, has left very little impression on this game. I couldn't tell you anything about him, although I know he's made posts.
hewitt - Explained above, was a lurker prior.
Ace - Tar brought up that IIoA tell of his, and I think that very much applies to you, Ace.
Stevie - Secretive about his opinions.
Emp - Borderline active lurker, shows support of a Mastin lynch, doesn't give strong impressions on any other aspects of the game.
zora - Flipped his opinion on Mastin for what I see as inadequate reasons, also potentially victim to the IIoA tell that Tar brought up.
Nanook - I'll retract Nanook. I saw him as another active lurker, but he just made a couple of solid posts.
OP - Who I see as the biggest support of the Mastin lynch, which I see as an unproductive way to use our first lynch.

---

To establish that I had a pro-town read of Mastin and so that if Mastin claimed Doctor, for example, I would have a precedent for saying no, the only pro-town role he could be is a commoner.

You could've made up any number of things, no matter what Mastin had claimed, and said, "Oh yeah, I predicted this earlier".

You're claiming that it's primary purpose was the bolster whatever argument you would have in the future after Mastin had claimed, but since we don't know what you were thinking, Mastin could've claimed anything and you could've went back to it and still used it. You knew, or should've known, you were going to be hassled about it.

Moreover, you say "to establish you had a

pro-town

read", but you didn't say pro-town in the original comment. You just said you could read him.

I didn't say I had anything juicy, I just said I had a read on him. What would me posting "I think Mastin is a commoner" do at that stage of the game?

The implication is that you have potentially important (juicy) knowledge, based on your experience with this game, as to what role Mastin should be. You choose to tell the town that you have this knowledge, but that you are not going to share it. That's counter-productive. I have no way of confirming whether or not that knowledge was that you thought Mastin was a vanilla, or commoner, other than your own confirmation of that idea.

What a loaded question in such a large game.

You made the statement that you don't believe I'm Mastin's target, and that's fair.

But why are you secretive about your suspicions as to who it may be? Shouldn't that be something to town should discuss, in order to avoid lynching that person? Perhaps you would prefer to save this for later when someone who you do not want to be lynched is getting a wagon?

Zora is right. This lynch is

100% beneficial to the town.

Did I say it wasn't?

This section is incredibly scummy. You pick about half the game, and don't even include the lurkers. So pretty much, you would support a lynch against pretty much anyone.

You don't consider alive, 9000, K7, Phobeus, and KoC to be lurkers?

Do you consider King, Zer0, hewitt, Ace, Emp, zora, and OP to be town?

---

It is worthy of noting how Amiscum and Stevie are the only two I've seen use "commoners" in reference to a group.

This could be notable. I've never heard that term before either, but Stevie's been on this site for four years so I imagine he's heard just about every label in the book.

"Sending out an SOS", the most common lyrics to Message in a Bottle (the song linked).
Minus the first S (S^1) in SoS, and add an F in it's place...

FOS.

Oh, I get it! That's so cheesy!

If he thinks I'm a power role, to say it would be rolefishing, so he holds back.
To think I'm a VT even is still rolefishing, and again, has him hold back.

But, then, why bring it up in the first place? If he can go back and change it to whatever he wants, then what was the point?

If someone tries to point out inconsistencies in my arguments from different games, I can cite reasons.

In other words, you're using your meta to defend against people from attacking you with your meta. XD

I'll link to the posts with my cases against Duscum and Amiscum eventually, and the others are from cases scattered across pages. (I'll put those together into one case as well)

No, I understand that part. I'm asking you, as general as possible, why it is those two lists sync up so similarly.

Well, you're my target and before, I wasn't listing you as a scumspect. That means I was scum hunting legitimately in my posts.

And I believe that to be the case, but that doesn't mean you weren't just throwing players under the bus indiscriminately.

---

Vote: Red Coyote

I'm just going to assume you are piggybacking on Stevie's suspicions, yes?

---

Mastin needs to get lynched. Today.

Otherwise, scum are just going to leave him and the lynchee to the endgame, and that won't be good for us.

Why can't Mastin be lynched another day? Do you not believe there are any town-sided converting/killing roles?

---

Just a thought, but what if Mastin is a Woodcutter/Hunter/Kamikaze/Rambo/Whatever you'd like to call it?

Then why is Dev lying to protect him?

---

have fun

Lol, no joke, it took me two hours.

---

I think that it'd take some sort of miracle to prevent one of the lynches from being one of the above. I'm at L-6 (Meh), OP's at L-10, I'm an anti-town role, OP's an extremely scummy player (although personally, not as scummy as Amiscum and Duscum are to me--I explained this before).

My vote won't be switched until the deadline draws closer, but I would lynch OP over Mastin any day of the week.

---

I can't just go into this situation thinking the best possible scenario is for Mastin to be lynched today. If anything I would rather get some information and help out of him first, he says he wants to be a pro-town player...so why not give him a chance? We've got a lot of time until the deadline...

This seems to be a departure from your previous thoughts. Would you explain this?

---

RC, why Stevie, Ace, Nanook, or Zora? I know your case on OP.

I summarize these above.

I think you and Ace realize this, but just to make it clear, I'm

not

calling everyone who I was prepared to lynch scum. I will support those lynches which I have listed (minus Nanook, as I've said), because of their play. I absolutely realize that there's no way there would be that many scum.

---

If Mastin is telling the truth then I would say Mastin is pro-town albeit he's not town (weird eh?). But considering I think he's lying I would have to say he's the most anti-town at the moment although not the person I would like to see lynched.

Wait, I think I misunderstood you. Are you voting OP because he is the second highest vote getter or because you think he's scummy?

---

If we keep [Mastin] for tomorrow, there is a HUGE chance we'll mislynch.

That logic doesn't make sense to me. If you're

that

afraid of a mislynch, then why vote at all? There is a HUGE chance a potential Vig will misfire, there is a HUGE chance we'll mislynch tomorrow if we lynch Mastin today, etc etc.

---

Okay orangepenguin that was a complete, by the book, appeal to emotion right there.

Agreed.

---

Yea, a serial killer claiming day one, in the hopes of there being a psychiatrist to cure them, but shooting as vig in the mean time.

I still think the possibility is absolutely valid. Leaving Mastin alive for whatever night actions that should befall on him could end up helping this town much more than anyone on the Mastin wagon would want the town to believe.

Do you know what this argument reminds me of?

The people who suggest a no-lynch day one in a Newbie Game.

"If we no lynch, the scum kill one of us, making it less likely that we'll hit town in our lynch."

Yea, no.
Never works out.

Right, I feel the same way. That's exactly the impression I get.

In the best of scenarios, however unlikely, what if we lynched a scummier role than Mastin today, and Mastin were, by some miracle, alive D2 as a Mason?

There is, without a doubt, much more potential in leaving Mastin alive today.

It was not me who claimed.
Devestation was at virtually ZERO risk of being lynched.
And chose to willingly claim with a result other than mafia.

I'm glad you brought this up Mastin, because this is important to differentiate from what OP wrote.

For better or for worse, Dev caused this situation, not Mastin. For OP to blame Mastin for the situation we are in is disingenuous.

---

Why should we a) waste the vig kill (even if vig is not a one shot, he's using the night to kill someone we could have just as easily have lynched.) b) have someone mason him only to kill him?

a) Vig would make up his own mind, this is only a possibility. If I, for one, was Vig, I would not shoot Mastin. I think a great many players are discounting the option that Mastin can be lynched at any point in this game, as if he's somehow safe from lynching D2, D3, D4... etc.
b) If anything, do you see no benefit to the WIFOM situation that this creates for any and all anti-town killing roles during N1?

The dual argument listed above means that we'd have to wait until day 3 to decide to lynch Mastin if we don't have Masons. At that point, we will have had far more information to work with and should be farther along in scum hunting.

No, I just don't go for this. God only knows how many roles have killing powers. There are so many possibilities over what may or may not happen to Mastin that this sort of speculation, that Mastin would be alive as a Lyncher on D3, is unfounded.

You've either intentionally or accidentally misinterpreted my points. These are additional reasons this is a good thing to do. I'm in favor of day 1 lynching an anti-town role. This seems the smart thing to do. It avoids problems down the road.

Let's go with Tar's post then, which I think is argued better than I could ever hope to argue,

We *can* lynch Mastin. If we can't find a better candidate before deadline, we can run him up quickly and know that we've lynched a nontown role. We can't do worse than lynching Mastin... but we can certainly do BETTER.

Why is that not valid, zora?

I am not in favor of lynching him just because he's long-winded. I'm in favor of lynching him because of the practicalities of keeping him alive.

I understand this now.

A town position wouldn't be too concerned about this point. But from his comments, RC seems aware of this, and I think he's going to use it to protect himself.

I've acknowledged this. I certainly have a vested interest in keeping Mastin alive for as long as I can.

Obviously my arguments in support of Mastin should be read with that bias already in them, I would expect no less.

That being said, each player will have to make their own judgement as to whether or not they believe the sincerity of my "townie RC" support of Mastin staying alive as opposed to my "Lyncher's target" support.

---

You waste nothing by letting me live a day.
You might gain a great deal by letting me live, though.

This is what it boils down to, plain and simple.

There's a great deal of potential in leaving Mastin alive that we throw away if we lynch him. That's the single most important reason why he should be left alive.

---

1. We get rid of anti-town role

But doesn't this seem like we're chopping off our nose to spite our face? Do you think having Mastin alive at night will help or hurt the town?

2. If you are telling the truth, clear Dev and Red

That doesn't necessarily clear me if he was lying about his target.

[RedCoyote]

How does Red being the target CLEAR him? Are all lynchee's townies or what?

I've never seen a

mafia

Lyncher target, although Lyncher targets may still be third-party, anti-town roles. Traditionally they are town-sided roles.

Trying to push attention off of Mastin is anti-town.

A) Why?
B) I'm not pushing attention off of Mastin, I'm actively explaining why his lynch is not the best solution for the town. If anything that is keeping the attention directly focused on him.

[RedCoyote]

Even though we could "do better" with a lynch as Tar has stated earlier, we also could still do worse (lynching a pro town role such as doc, cop, vig, etc.)

Yeah, the argument keeps being brought up. And?

This fear of lynching a townie is such a scummy sounding argument to me. The town cannot be afraid to lynch, period. We'll lose if we let the fear of lynching power roles keep us from taking risks.

---

I'm fine with this. But what constitutes a "better candidate" will likely be contentious.

Welcome to the game of Mafia. We argue and have contentious debates over who is guilty and who isn't.

Those not in favor of lynching Mastin today (e.g. RC) will have a much lower standard for what a "better candidate" is.

No, I disagree. I'm scumhunting like I normally would. Why is that a problem?

But if you're town, then that vested interest is far less important. Something nice (no active player wants to be lynched), but it's not of great interest.

Well, I agree and disagree. I see what point you're making. I'm coming at it from a different perspective though. I see myself as a Lyncher's target, which gives my arguments lot more creditability. Keeping Mastin alive is self-serving in that sense, no doubt, but it's not based on preservation for the sake of playing the game, it's preservation based on the sake that me and Dev are the closest things the town has right now to being clear. Having our opinions out here is going to be very likely the closest thing to a genuine, town perspective on the game that one will get.

Let's consider, shall we? Will Mafia kill you? Very unlikely. Will SK kill you? Unlikely as well.

Why? Why are you completely discounting the possibility of Masons/Psychiatrists?

I mean, the mafia, and SK... these players don't want us to have a cleared role.

---

In other words:
We lynch Mastin, we keep all our townies.
We don't lynch Mastin, we probably lose a townie.

If we lynch Mastin D1, we'll still probably lynch a townie tomorrow. What's your point?

---

I think Mastin is lying about his lynchee.

Who is it?

---

RC, it would be nice for this to be answered

Here, about a quarter way into the post.

---

And my strategy

was valid

, by the way.

I'm willing to believe that you would've lynched Mastin had he claimed Cop. The problem is a little different, let me try to clarify what I mean. Two arguments:

A) I'm lynching Joe. It's based on him being such a central figure D1, there's no way he could be a power role.
B) I'm lynching Joe. It's based on him being such a central figure D1, there's no way he could be a power role. In post 100, I stated that I had a read on him.

I do not see B as a stronger argument than A. Especially based on your reasoning, being of how hard Mastin came out, I do not see the reason why the town couldn't just check it out and see for themselves.

It was potentially very important. If Mastin had claimed Cop D2, I would've shouted from the rooftops that he was scum because the only pro-town role he could possibly be was a townie. But revealing what I thought at that point really did nothing to help the town.

I understand that, I don't think it would've helped at that point either.

I'm not being secretive, I have no idea who his target is. Not a clue.

Ok, I accept that.

Fair point about the lurker bit, maybe I was a little mistaken. I still think that list is too large, however.

I was probably trying to be too grandiose. I should say that I know not all of you are scum, and I'm not suggesting that everyone on that list is equal in degrees of scuminess either. I just believe that the D1 lynch should be completely open. We have little to work with in most cases anyways, so don't let anyone marginalize who should and shouldn't be safe.

---

Ace, why couldn't we gain any information from Mastin's lynch? I've heard this comment be stated by others as well I think, and I can't see how there couldn't be ANY information obtained as well as the fact that we could exterminate a threat for tomorrow.

I want to answer this too because I think this is an important question.

Any forum mafia player worth their salts will tell you that the flip after a lynch or a kill is worth so much more than all of the hot air that everyone in the game creates.

The mafia's big advantage over the town is always information. Lynching someone is the best way for the town to get more information.

I think few people on the Mastin wagon disagree with the fact he's a Lyncher, because it's likely that he is. Obviously we don't

want

to lynch a town member, but lynching someone else, even if they are town, will cause them to flip. If we know whether or not said person was scum, we can base further opinions we have tomorrow and the day after that on what that player said and did today.

If we lynch Mastin, and he comes up Lyncher, all we'll get is that Dev is basically a confirmed JOAT, and the same back and forth about who Mastin's target was.

If we lynch someone else, we not only get the information from that lynch, but we create a chaotic WIFOM situation for all anti-town roles at night by leaving Mastin alive.

---

We could mislynch on a townie today and the day would be wasted

No, this is absolutely false.

---

My thought is that there's been a lot of assuming lately. We assume there's a vig. We assume there are masons.

So why don't we assume there's a doctor, one of the most basic roles? Or for that matter that Dev can't hide one of his nights.

It's a two-way street. You can't use this as an argument, it cancels out with the fact that Mastin could be converted or killed.

How are Masons and Vigilantes not "basic" roles?

---

The math is here. People "conveniently" ignored it, because they didn't want to hear how they're wrong and I'm right

I don't know if that's the reason, but I agree with this logic 100%.

The sheer number of positive possibilities of leaving you alive outweigh the negatives to such a degree that I'm confident the scum/third-parties are rooting for a Mastin lynch today. zora can flash all the statistics he wants, there's no way to account for the sensibilities of players with killing powers that have to make a serious decision during the night. You can't simply say mafia has X percent chance of shooting someone, we don't know who the mafia is, we don't know if they're risky or conservative, we don't know whether or not there is a Mason, we

don't know

.

How do we aquire the knowledge to understand these things more clearly? By lynching people who aren't investigated by the JOAT.

---

Why [does Nanook] need somebody to out themselves to prove that OP is scum?

Where did he say this, if you don't mind me asking? I must've missed it.

---

If we don't lynch you today because we believe the RC claim, we believe you're in it for the town, provide a different perspective, etc., then I don't see why lynching you tomorrow would be a good idea.

No one is saying that Mastin will be for sure town tomorrow, and I'm certainly not saying Mastin should be kept alive indefinitely.

The idea that we won't be able to lynch Mastin tomorrow, or any other day, because of potential reports, is ludicrous. Assuming we have a Cop/Tracker/Watcher, assuming they get a guilty report, assuming the supposed guilty doesn't counter them... so many assumptions.

In any case, not getting any new information from the D1 lynch could seriously hinder this town, especially after we may have just lost our JOAT's usefulness.

[RedCoyote]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-19

Mastin - 11

(Caboose, Devestation, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin, NanooktheWolf, zoraster, King, zwetschenwasser, ryan2754, Phoebus)

OrangePenguin - 5

(cateraction, Maturin24, hewitt, Mastin, Azhrei, AceMarksman)

Zwetschenwasser - 1

(zer0ph34r)

hewitt - 1

(RedCoyote)

NanooktheWolf - 1

(Amished)

Not Voting - 6

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

---

Of course. That's the risk we typically MUST take. But we DON'T have to take that risk today because we have someone who definitely is NOT A TOWNIE. How was that not obvious?

Do you typically try to avoid as many risks as possible?

[RedCoyote]

It's not about taking risks or not taking risks. It's about taking calculated risks. Is option (a) a lower risk than option (b)? If so, the reason for choosing option (b) has to be much higher than (a).

Okay, fine, I'll even concede to your definition, that it's calculating to the degree of said risk rather than a more black and white argument.

What is the risk of Mastin winning today, zora?

My point was that those not in favor of lynching Mastin today may try and scum hunt, but the level of certainty they have to have to lynch someone over mastin will be far lower than I will.

Huh? Why?

My response was not removed from this, you are effectively labeling those on the Mastin wagon as supportive of lower standards in their scumhunting. I'm saying that just because I don't want Mastin lynched doesn't mean I would want our lynch to be a random person.

Moreover, I think I could just as easily make the argument that those relying on the Mastin lynch as a crutch are being

far

too lazy in their current analysis of the game. Players like OP, King, zwet, and even you zora, have seemed the abandon entirely the idea of any actual scumhunting outside of pushing Mastin. Granted, this is by far the biggest issue at hand, but, if Mastin has made any solid point today, it's that he's unarguably been interested in

scumhunting

today.

How honest it is is absolutely up for debate, his methods are absolutely up for debate, but the level of interest in

finding scum

between, say, OP and Mastin, is no contest. Mastin beats OP ten times over in that department.

Yes, if Mastin is masoned and he confirms you really were clear, then you'd be clear. But that possibility requires two things: (1) that there's a mason who masons Mastin (say that five times fast); (2) that you really are Mastin's target.

You don't need a Mason to accomplish this.

Look, you say flat out that I'm not Mastin's target. Fine. Whoever Mastin's target is has a great propensity than anyone else (aside from Dev) to be town, right?

Don't you think said player would be the closest thing to a clear townie we have?

D2 comes around and Mastin fake claims Mason. He knows he hasn't be masoned, so he suspects there aren't masons and this is his best chance to stay alive. So now he's either "cleared" himself (and you) in a fake way or masons have to come out and disown him. Now we have the masons outed.

This is just more fear pandering. The past handful of posts you've been saying for us to not so easily accept the fact that there are Masons, and then you come out with a hypothetical that leaving Mastin alive will out all of our Masons?

No one knows which is why Mastin is so freaking dangerous to keep around. Not only is it dangerous because we might lynch his real target, it's dangerous because we'll have to view every lynch possibility through the lens of "is this guy Mastin's target?"

So do you think Dev is lying about the fact that Mastin can't win until tomorrow? Otherwise, why does this worry you today?

But things are not equal. I think most believe there will be at least two night kills tonight. Those night kills lead to some great information as well. If we decide to lynch Mastin tomorrow, we've thrown away a good opportunity.

What opportunity are we throwing away by lynching Mastin tomorrow? Hypothetical guilty Cop report lynches?

I'll agree that lynching Mastin doesn't provide quite as much information as lynching someone else. But it's a great reason to lynch him today rather than tomorrow.

What? This is just a blantant contradiction. Not getting as much information is a great reason to lynch Mastin today?

Mastin is an anti-town force. I can only say that so many times.

And mafia are more anti-town than Mastin. And using our lynch for information rather than getting rid of a Lyncher who can't win today will give the town more to work with tomorrow. I can only say these things so many times.

My point is that those arguing for saving Mastin have argued that Masons and psychiatrists* are probably around to turn him town.

This is just one possibility of many, zora. More than this, I contend, the WIFOM that leaving Mastin alive tonight is enough a reason to keep him breathing, let alone the possibilities of lynching a real threat today.

And you can dismiss statistics all you want, but they're still an important part of the discussion.

I agree with that, but statistics like this ignore the bigger picture. Your basing your statistics off of a specific setup that you have no idea whether or not is close to the actual setup. Granted, you try to make the hypothetical as close to basic as you can, but, honestly, how much good are statistics that have no real basis in the reality of the game? When you don't know what roles there are, it's hard to argue that

either side

has a statistical advantage, can't you at least agree to that?

My argument is based on the fact we'll have night kills to go on, and the probabilities of finding scum are higher.

And using our lynch on an unknown variable rather than Mastin will make the probabilities tomorrow even higher than that.

[RedCoyote]

Don't get me wrong. I do believe [Mastin hopes] to become a town member. It's possible [he'll] hope to lead us to scum today as well. But the first is merely a hope... not something that [he's] already decided is something [he's] going to count on. The second would be self-serving (though obviously beneficial to town).

Let me clarify, though, that I have no idea whether [he's] trying to lynch scum or simply setting up tomorrow's hopeful lynch.

This is the only reasonable fear, so far as I can tell, of leaving Mastin alive. But...

[Mastin will] fake claim mason, and [he'll] increase your chances of survival and this is exactly why [he'd] do it. If [he's] not masoned, then [he'll] take a chance on whether or not there are masons.

...you're overestimating Mastin's abilities to keep himself alive and underestimating the town's abilities to put a stop to Mastin.

[Is Mastin] suggesting that if there is a vigil, from town's perspective we should have him shoot [him]?

I don't know if this is what he's suggesting, but the Vig should make up their own mind.

Anyway, I'd spend more time on this post to edit, etc. but I have to run my girlfriend to the airport.

I don't think you have a girlfriend. Enjoy running yourself to the airport.

XD

---

Is everyone voting Mastin because his posts are too long?

Are you incapable of reading through some of the most recent posts?

---

Those that can change alignment?

In my experience that's what a Mason does to any role that isn't mafia or SK. This is dependent on what the Mod has decided though.

---

the only thing [Mastin's] left to claim now is doctor or mafia.

I know you had to do a reread because you lurked for a few days, but this is just senseless. If you should've gotten anything at all from your reread, it should've been who claimed what.

i will be voting azhrei tomorrow.

Oh, great, lining up lynches too.

Unvote, vote: Phoebus

.

---

Mastin dies, is revealed (what we know already) that he is a lyncher. No new info, no. But so what?

Getting new information is the best way a town can hunt scum. To throw that opportunity away is to waste tomorrow's potential.

---

Remember when I discussed earlier about the concept of the Anti-lyncher?
A person, whose soul win condition, is to get the lyncher lynched?

I've never heard of this role before, but I don't buy it for zora. zora is sorely misdirected, cashing in on the prospect of a quick lynch by feeding to everyone's anti-Mastin sensibilities.

Half the people voting Mastin are just doing it to get rid of him, this is evidenced by posts from people like ryan, Phoebus, and zwet.

---

I'd expect the Mastin wagon to be a Mafia bonanza; in particular, I'm looking for players who weren't doing much scumhunting if any before the Mastin claim, especially if they were posting about other things (IIoA) and then quickly jumped onto the Mastin wagon claiming that we can't let a Lyncher who can't win until Day 2 live (Selective Scumhunting).

This is something I tend to agree with, especially when I read posts like 528.

The scum don't want to make waves going against what's the popular thing to do (lynch Mastin).

Vote: King

This is a well-reasoned lynch that I can absolutely support as well.

Look, bottom line, scumhunting is going on in this game, but the people that seem most interested in finding said scum all seem to come from one point of view, that our lynch is better served on someone other than Mastin today.

I think this should speak to all townies out there who are on a wagon based on convenience rather than suspicions.

---

@ Everyone not voting Mastin: Do you believe that Mastin's lynchee is really RC? If so, why?

His breadcrumb ("our victories are intertwined") is hard to argue against. Some of the players have said breadcrumbing can be done for anything, but they haven't shown me any other potential lynchee breadcrumbs.

---

Thanks zoraster.

I will not rely solely on highlights, I'm only interested in what is useful to know before I start reading post 0.

Welcome!

zora's highlights are pretty good, but it's just a lot of text.

Ideally I'd like to you cast a vote you felt comfortable with, but because we have a player about to be lynched you should be very careful about any move you make.

---

So, mass claim?

I know you are being sarcastic but for you not to even acknowledge this point shows me your limitations.

---

My main goal for today is to find scum and I feel like most players are not playing with that goal in mind, especially OrangePenguin, Empking, zwets, zoraster, and StevieT92. All of whom I feel are the most opportunistic players in this game and most likely to be scum at this point. And none of you can even try to shift that on to Mastin because it isn't possible for him to be scum!

Yes, yes, yes.

---

Second, I don't believe -- and nor do I think should you -- that he's telling the whole truth.

Not everyone who supports keeping Mastin alive believe he is telling the whole truth. Speaking for myself, I'm not as content at throwing away a perfectly good lynch on account of eliminating a non-threat and gaining no new information. Tar argues that we learn for sure whether Mastin is a Lyncher or not, and that's fair, but that's not the kind of information I think a townie should be satisfied with.

---

If Mastin is lynched today I feel that we've basically wasted the day. It hasn't really been too much time (real time) for a D1 and I don't feel that much will have been accomplished in this day. We'll basically have lynched a player who wasn't even a threat that day. If anything, hold off until tomorrow when he actually IS a threat and can win the game.

Agreed.

---

I believe Mastin's target is OP, if Dev is telling the truth.

This is pandering to fear, you have no reason to believe this other than Mastin's vote.

I've never heard of a Lyncher "tag-team", show me one instance of this please.

THe list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".

You're one to call people lurkers.

Additionally, why would a Lyncher tunnel their target from the starting gate? I mean, hell, we're WIFOMing up and down anyways, explain this to me.

If I was just one lurker amidst six or seven others, then it would look pretty bad for Mastin to say that I was the "scummiest" of the lurkers.

I don't get this. Why are we not wasting potential if we lynch someone else?

Because we actually get information that could help us later in the game. Mastin's lynch will only give us information about one player, Dev, which everyone has basically decided to accept as a JOAT at this point.

---

Hey, my gambit worked! Die opportunistic scum!

I think this is a good post, don't let us forget about this, zwet.

---

What? Why would only scum want to hammer Mastin??

So they don't have to look like their scumhunting.

---

WRT where did Nanook want somebody to out themselves to prove OP one way or another

I'm sorry Amish, I looked over my post 470 but I didn't notice any questions I asked of Nanook for anything in his post 450. If you could make the question a little more general, if you are still interested in the answer, I will try to answer it.

---

[hewitt was] not scumhunting. [He was] saying "Who are you?".

He's been doing more than you have, that's for sure.

---

Do I keep my vote on and look scummy, or do I unvote and look scummier because you think I should change it. A lot of people would find that more scummy than what you think is pro-town. I am completely willing to scumhunt by looking at other people, and have done so for the entire game.

Cry me a river, ryan. What kind of appeal is this? Who are you trying to score points with? Mastin?

Does anyone else find this extremely relevant, given Mastin's behavior?

Yeah, it is. I wasn't aware of this either, to be honest.

---

Because if so, you = wrong, so you should unvote or there will be one less town in this game

Why did you feel the need to say this? Why are you afraid of a lynch at L-13?

[RedCoyote]

I wouldn't expect him to breadcrumb lynchees. I don't think a normal person does this.

What do you think he meant by that statement then? I can't think of any other reasonable meaning, I honestly can't. Mastin may be a little unorthodox, but he's certainly not acting deliberately nonsensical.

If anything, he breadcrumbed RC in order to make this gambit.

That's quite possible. Maybe we should be extremely careful when, I don't know, Mastin becomes a threat?

RC is attempting to switch the "safe" scum vote from being on Mastin (which I don't deny... it's safe because it's solid) to being off Mastin and "scum hunting."

Absolutely. I just... I can't grasp the idea that we would use our lynch, our one tool to actually hurt scum, on a non-threat role, that we would forego our opportunity to learn more about the setup, or possibly gain an advantage on the mafia.

So maybe I'm playing to risky for some of you, that might be the case. I think it's easier to explain that this lynch gives scum a serious pass from having to do anything today.

---

Where did I claim that he would tunnel from the start?

You said that I am an easy lynch

because

I was lurking. I lurked for the first two-three days of the game. Therefore, Mastin would've had to direct his attention to me from the beginning of the game, before I began to post.

How is this relevant?

If I was just one player among six or seven, people would be curious as to why Mastin was focusing on me instead of other lurkers.

This was actually brought up in the case of ryan earlier I believe.

No, the lynch will give more info than just about Mastin.

What info will a Mastin flip give besides confirming Dev's claim?

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

You don't agree that scum want the day to end as soon as possible? Scum don't want to appear to be scumhunting, there's more chances that they'll get caught.

[RedCoyote]

If anything, it's designed to get us to this point today where you believe you're honestly his target.

That may be, he may have predicted the possibility of a JOAT or some other role investigator and planted that information for that specific instance. If anyone would do that, Mastin would.

It alters our ability to scum hunt. I think it decreases our chances of getting scum tomorrow. And even with all the caution in the world, we may hit his target anyway.

Well, I'll say this again, this is pandering to fear. You're trying to get the town to rally around a potential, disadvantageous outcome.

Mastin as a burden is just an excuse, I think there's also a great opportunity behind power role protection in leaving Mastin around to be somewhat of a whipping boy.

---

Right now, it's just text walls that are annoying.

Then don't read them.

You know Mastin's role, as a third-party he should have little to no influence left on the actual game itself, precisely because we cannot be truly sure of his motivations.

---

Oh, you mean like, mastin's lynch would give us information on who is scum?

It doesn't have to be Mastin, wagon-hopping and hammering will occur on any player who gets as many votes.

Just to clarify: In mastin's list, you should have been labeled a "lurker" and "easy" liek the other people who barely did post. This has nothing to do with tunneling you from the start. He made the list quite a few pages into the game.

Well, what are you counting by, days or page count? The page count is unusually high, especially in the first few days.

The point is, I was lurking for the first weekend when the game started; I don't have as much time to post on the weekend.

You say I am an easy lynch as an effect of this lurking. I started posting in earnest 3 real time days

into

the game. I wasn't lurking past said 3 days.

In other words, for me to maintain the status, as you say, as an easy lurker lynch, Mastin would've had to coalesce a wagon around me those three first days. Forming a lynch three days into a game would require serious dedication. Moreover, he'd have to explain why an RC lurker lynch was more acceptable than a K7 lurker lynch, KoC lurker lynch, King lurker lynch, hewitt lurker lynch... etc

Oh, and you still did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

Yeah, I read your quote. Scum may get on the wagon early. The scum may be lurking to victory, too, meaning all of this crap about Mastin is moot.

I'm not going to account for every possibility. Just because the scum may have been the first to start the wagon on Mastin doesn't mean that the person who hammers Mastin is town. Scum want the days to end as soon as possible, that's a fact you can take to the bank.

---

Please define lurking. I've taken notice now that you've accused quite a few players of doing such, and I'm just curious as to what that exactly means from your viewpoint.

Any player should sign up in a game with the intent to post at least once every 72 hours, or, failing that, excuse himself from being able to do so.

If they don't meet this criteria, then they're lurking.

---

Mod, please prod alvinz25

. I don't think this one has even posted yet.

[RedCoyote]

Yes, but doesn't this contradict what you said of "Mastin's lynch gives us no information"? Can't you see that a Mastin lynch would give us information?

I agree with you, but that's not what I meant by information. The information of a flip of an unknown quantity is invaluable to the town, more important than the information of a bandwagon.

If you ask me this is currently just a vote based on game theory, I can honestly see some merit in both positions of the issue. Granted, I would contend that there are probably scum on the Mastin wagon trying to appear as though they care about this town, but in reality I have no way of determining who is and who isn't following this precept in a way that I would if we were lynching based on a set list of scumtells.

I jsut said that at the point where mastin made the list, regardless of when it was actually made, you should have been beenb labeled a lurker.

Well, I had made three posts by then, including one just a few hours prior to when Mastin made the list, so, no, I don't think I could've been labeled as a lurker at the time Mastin made the list.

I never said that the person who hamemrs Mastin is town. You are putting words in my mouth. I just said that they weren't more likely scum than anyone else.
I still think the hammer is a null tell, and you have not explained to me why it is not.

Do you or do you not agree with the principle that scum want shorter days? Especially when we (almost) know that the person being lynched is not scum. If you don't agree, then the hammer isn't going to be a tell to you in most scenarios anyways, and I'll drop the issue.

---

Don't be so worried about what you think other players' will think of your actions and do what you think is right.

I commend players for having the courage to change their mind if they think they're in the wrong, but there is a fine line between that and being afraid to take a stand. I'm worried ryan may be trying to

appear

reasonable.

---

Well, using that logic, why are we trying to lynch scum at all?

Why bother scumhunting when we have a Lyncher who can't win alive?

BTW, Azhrei will be getting my vote tomorrow, as he is also scum.

Lining up lynches as well. Hmm, this is interesting.

Maybe we can just save the time and plan all of our lynches ahead of time, it's not as though any new information will come up that might change the circumstances or anything like that...

---

If I recall correctly, you're now the second person to make that statement regarding voting for Azhrei.

You're right Nanook, both Caboose and Phoebus are planning tomorrow's lynch today.

Has anyone considered that there may be masons in the game who can't recruit?

No one is saying Mastin will become a Mason for sure, no one is saying that.

The idea is that scum are a bigger threat at this stage of the game than a Lyncher who can't win today, wouldn't you agree with that at least?

---

Oh, my best guess is that if we have Masons at all, they cannot recruit. However, it's been listed as a primary reason for keeping Mastin alive today, so I'm going to talk about it some.

By whom? Who said that it was the "primary reason" for leaving Mastin alive? No one is banking on Mastin being a town-sided role tomorrow, that's just one possibility.

---

Thanks, but you came a little too late.. I saw some of Mastin's post and they made my head hurt.. Good God, does every single post have to be so spaced out[?]

Welcome. Is this the reason why you are voting Mastin?

Do we really need to keep a 3rd party alive until he's possibly converted?

Do we really need to waste our lynch on a player who cannot win today?

If we could vote for a No Lynch, I'd be cool with that, honestly.

This would be even worse than voting Mastin, in my opinion.

---

People are voting Mastin for legitimate reasons, that you continue to ignore.

The only reason he's being voted is because he's not town. I have a feeling a few of the people on the Mastin wagon just really aren't interested in getting information for the town, because they'd rather waste time on what should be a non-issue.

---

What kind of scumhunting can we do if Mastin is just going to be the central focus of everyone's post? By lynching him, we can eliminate all distraction and move on. If you have anything better to offer, please say so soon.

I've got an idea, we use our lynch to gather information, and possibly hit a scum role in the process, as it was intended, rather than waste it on a Lyncher who can't win today.

---

As for the legitimate reasons I think most players on the Mastin wagon are convincing themselves that there's no need to do anything else today when there's a lot more that they can focus on.

Agreed, 100%.

Either convincing themselves or trying to convince others. Players like zora, OP, and any other loud players are taking advantage of the opportunity to rally the less active players around a "safe" lynch in order to prevent the possibility that the town actually make proper use of its lynch.

[RedCoyote]

Posting now to preempt any bitching about me not posting. The only thing I am feeling about this game right now is complete apathy about the continual circular conversation currently occurring . Unless someone comes up with new info or claims, I am done posting for day 1.

Thanks, King.

I'd like those on the Mastin wagon, specifically players like zora and Nanook, to comment on this. Are you happy with this? Stevie, I'd really like your opinion as well.

King thinks that the town has suffered through enough discussion, he thinks that Mastin should be lynched immediately and there's no more sense in arguing about the issue (despite having two people re-reading, and at least one replacement on the way). Do the other people on the Mastin wagon agree with King?

[RedCoyote]

Just to my mind it's not whether we're lynching Mastin tonight or not. It's about getting better reads to take into d2 with. Perhaps even to give our investigative roles (if there are any) some ideas on who to target and thus have reasons for picking 1 over the other when they eventually claim (if they do).

I wouldn't be so confident that the Mastin lynch is going through. It is no doubt the most likely outcome, but if those who replace or have lurked weigh the decision, I feel as though this lynch will be closer than you may like it to be.

---

I never said that you should stop discussing, I just said that I don't care about what is being said anymore.

Having "complete apathy" for the current conversation, being done posting... it just proves my point that those on the Mastin wagon could care less about hunting real scum or contributing to the game. Mastin is an easy way not to have to contribute to this game, it's an easy way not to get caught giving real opinions about anything of value. Anyone can tell you a Lyncher is anti-town, but to allow the scum to get away with "we should lynch Mastin because he's a Lyncher and that's all I have to say!" isn't smart play.

[RedCoyote]

whats up with the mastin wangon anything interesting?

No.

[RedCoyote]

If we lynch someone other than the Lyncher, isn't it possible that the Lyncher wins? Do we know who Mastin is trying to get lynched?

No WC, you have to understand that's one of the biggest reasons why some of us think a Mastin lynch is a waste of time. He can't win today, according to Dev and Mastin.

Mastin claims I am his target, and has provided multiple pieces of evidence to support that.

Most have rightfully questioned him. zora has suggested that Dust is the real target, and zu has suggested that the target is OP. I tend to believe Mastin, but my opinion about that will naturally be a little bias.

---

Nah, you are wrong...I am reasonable (check every game I've played). I am one of the more fairly level-headed individuals in the game, and do think through my posts and my ideas fairly meticulously.

Yeah, you seem to be. Remember I played with you before (if only for a very short time).

---

My poorly worded point was that it has been pages and pages since I've seen a new argument against lynching Mastin. I don't think there's really anything left to say.

Okay, in that case I contend that as more and more people (K7, Dev, Kise, WC) realize the futility of lynching a Lyncher who can't win today, we may finally move toward a normal game.

---

Mafia can use this

"Mastin show"

as a way to distract townies from having suspicions about them. Since we have no idea who the lynchee is, I'd rather not take the chance of accidentally lynching Mastin's target and losing the game.

Kise, as someone else said, it only becomes the Mastin show if you let it. I've had perfectly normal arguments with zu and Stevie that aren't related to the debate of letting the lyncher live or not. I've pointed out where players like Caboose and Phoebus have committed textbook scumtells. I've discussed my feelings on other players in this game with Ace and ryan...

Other discussions are going on Kise, the people on the Mastin wagon are just trying to make you believe that this game can't go on correctly until Mastin is gone. That is absolutely not the case.

If not Mastin, then who do we lynch? There needs to be 14 votes or else we'll hit deadline, and that's virtually the same as the dreaded No Lynch...

In addition to the deadline that zora brought up, it would be nice for you to go over a few posts where you see people have made votes and read why it is they voted for said person. You're basically a clean slate, KoC said nothing of importance this game.

All I ask is that you don't assume that Mastin is the correct lynch because that's what the majority tells you.

---

I keep thinking that this Mastin Posting stuff is a way to keep votes off of him, then I think, it's too obvious, so we're doing the opposite and then everything just gets confusing.

Well, he tends to post this way every game he's in.

---

Apparently they are all convinced that there MUST be a mason recruiter.

I can use strawmen, too.

Everyone on the Mastin wagon is convinced that there MUST not be a Vig.

---

The entire wagon on me is pretty poor, to be honest.

You still haven't addressed Tar's concerns.

---

I think it might be better to go for someone who acts scummy, and try not to vote out the lynchee.

I agree, except remember that even if we kill the lynchee, Mastin can't win (according to Dev).

---

King is wise. King is right.
I may consider joining the cult of King.

Possible cult slip?

to me it sounds like he got offered to join a cult and hasnt decided yet if he wants to join, but it is day one so that is strange.

I'm pretty sure this was a joke and not a "cult slip." Regardless, I'm pretty sure you don't get a choice of whether or not to join the cult when the leader comes knocking.

Every quote here is hysterical. Phoebus implying that King is smart to lurk through the rest of D1, ryan's cult reference, K7 not knowing whether to take it seriously, and zora's last cult leader joke there to wrap it up.

[RedCoyote]

Amished, Zwet, ryan, RC, and Hewitt;

running a one man bandwagon is not exactly helping the town.

Neither is lynching someone that has no bearing on this game today.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer to use my vote to pressure those who I think are committing scumtells. My vote will not go to waste before any deadline hits.

Well, Stevie, if people weren't so content to sit on their vote of Mastin and NOT DO ANYTHING, maybe they would actually respond to each of our reasonings for voting those people.

Thank you.

[RedCoyote]

To all the one person wagoners (Ryan, Amished, Zwet, RC, hewitt), are you going to continue to vote that person, come deadline, and you're still the only person on the wagon? If you don't, would you switch to Mastin? orangepenguin? Why?

Yes, I will. I'd also be comfortable with Caboose or Zer0 as far as the one-man wagons go.

I will switch to OP at the deadline if he is still the highest non-Mastin wagon. I'm confident Mastin can be lynched without my support, but we'll see how that ends up breaking.

OP, you're still a good lynch because I think you let Mastin get under your skin. You were shooting appeals to emotion in attempts to rush the Mastin wagon, and I agree with Tar's analysis that you may have let slip more information about this game than the rest of us.

---

Thus far, I agree it would be ideal to lynch scum today. However, we have a confirmed anti-town player. I'd have to be really, really sure that someone was scum to pass on a 100% third party.

For goodness sakes, just vote the man already.

Every post you make you talk about how, "I'm 99.9999999% sure I'm voting Mastin!", when are you going to make the jump? I appreciate you replacing and everything, but I don't understand this reluctance to vote. We know your position, you know the position of most of the other players, I just don't understand the hesitation.

I really think it boils down to this: I'd rather have a more informed D2 lynch by getting rid of Mastin today, then making a less informed D1 lynch today. I'm operating under the assumption that he'll have to be lynched today or tomorrow.

That's a fair point, but it still sounds like fear to me. I'm sorry, I don't understand, especially in a game this size, the fear of using our votes against other players. The town wants to get information, and we don't get that by lynching a non-mafia role who is basically confirmed. Trading a JOAT for a Lyncher = bad deal for town.

---

At deadline, if I'm around and we need one more to a lynch, I won't hesitate to vote for whichever is higher. I would prefer Mastin *be* higher at that point if needed, just due to potentially saving RC through Mastin's wifom'd situation of being half of a lover pair.

Someone brought this up earlier and I meant to address it. I will state here and now unequivocally that I am not a lover role. I was not told of any lover addendum responsibilities to my win condition or anything like that either.

Yes, but a cop won't come out after just one investigation.

I concur, especially in a Large game like this. Which is why I think those on the Mastin wagon who have been implying that a Cop or a Tracker might get reports for D2 is a little silly.

---

I strongly disagree with Azhrei's play, I don't think he's playing pro-town and honestly I don't see the case on OrangePenguin anymore.

Everyone's waiting for Tar to go back and do a good one. XD

[RedCoyote]

I'm in no hurry. There is still plenty of time before the deadline. This is really just a function me being a slow reader. I need to post something while I'm catching up.

I'm not criticizing your reading or anything like that, I just see the same comments from you each time you make a post.

As for the "fear", assume that you are scum. Would you NK Mastin? I wouldn't. The town would lynch him D2.

What if the town has a Bus Driver? I mean, I don't want to get into the "What if" scenario all game, but I'm a bit frustrated with everyone on the Mastin wagon so adamant about the fact that leaving Mastin alive at night does nothing.

This isn't a fear of using votes - it is using votes wisely.

Well, this is the fundamental game theory dead end that this game has hit.

On D1, is it more important for the town to use the lynch to collect information and take the chance of hitting scum, or use the lynch on a third-party role who can't win until D2?

This is a political argument; this isn't an argument that will change. It's like Democrats and Republicans. Does it make for a better republic to have more or less government intervention in the economy? More or less government intervention in social issues? We can create scenarios and statistics all day, but ultimately it comes down to your principles on the matter.

Having the theory that all certain anti-town forces should be lynched immediately is a valid game theory, just like LAL is also a valid game theory.

It's just that some of us think there should be exceptions, this being one of those times.

I also doubt we'll lose the JOAT tonight.

This was more or less a stab at the circumstances of the game than anything else. I think the JOAT may be roleblocked from here on out.

---

I may still be adamant in wanting Mastin lynched, however I am open to other options if there is discussion regarding it, which it doesn't seem to be right now.

That's nice to say, Nanook, but I don't see you using your vote for anything worthwhile.

I wonder how many people on the Mastin wagon have parked their vote there and haven't used it against anyone else throughout these 38 pages? Hm.

Are others waiting on the inactives to post? Just curious.

If the town's not interested in hunting scum, then there's little we can do. Y'all want the Lyncher taken out, so do it.

This is what I was addressing with WC earlier. He keeps teasing the town with his post everyday that says he is 99% sure Mastin is scum, but he still wants to read more.

I applaud his dedication to reading everything, honestly I do. I'm just frustrated that he's updating us daily that he has the same opinion that he had when he joined the game and refuses to act on anything else. Traditionally when I re-read threads I like to quote parts and stick it to other players. Why did King say this? What was hewitt's response to this? Why is Stevie so uninvolved? etc etc...

[RedCoyote]

[k7]

ran towards the police station

Might just be pure flavor, but it might imply that there is at least one Cop around town?

Also, welcome jeromus! I hope you got a chance to read over some of D1.

Flavour is meant to be flavour - I did not intentionally hint at anything.

[RedCoyote]

7. alvinz95, a Doctor, Slashed Night 1.

16. zwetchenwasser, a Watcher, Shot Night 1.

23. Tarhalindur, a Mafia Goon, Ambushed Night 1.

14. killa seven, a Tracker, Beaten to Death Night 1.

These might contain a couple of clues as well. I'd hope players with a little more experience could give us some insight. To me, coupled with the Mod's explanation of how the night went, this says that the mafia were probably the ones who killed zwet.

It looks like we've got someone wielding a knife on alvinz, which implies that the town may have a Gunsmith role? Possibly a Hunter-type role? K7 was beaten to death, and Tar was ambushed? Anyone have any idea what these roles could be?

Az & Maturin are common elements with the OP wagon.

Good observation, WC. It'd be nice to hear from Azhrei and Maturin's replacement.

Dev, being our only claimed role out, it would be nice to hear from him sooner rather than later.

[RedCoyote]

I also have a strong dislike for RedCoyote's speculation. Gunsmith? Hunter? The kill types help nothing with that; it is all baseless speculation.

?

What do you mean? You don't think it's important information that one of the deaths was because of "stabbing"? I think it's helpful information, and I think these are potential roles that could be involved if we have killing roles without guns (e.g. fists and knifes).

For example,

I believe I killed Tarhalindur last night, because I used ambush on Zwetschenwasser with the intention of defending him from an attacker. Unfortunantly the ability used by the player who I ambushed still goes ahead.

I know very little about the JOAT role, can you explain what this means? Is ambushing one of your powers? If so, how exactly does it work?

[RedCoyote]

What point are you proving? Has anyone done any of this?

Um, no, person. I said mafia goon dying is GOOD. When did I EVER say it was scummy?

Why would that make me scum? Is that not good that a mafia goon is dead?

This is the second time you've lost your cool, Zer0. Why are you so quick to explode when someone bats an eye at you?

This attitude earns a

vote: Zer0ph34r

.

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, how is me defending myself losing my cool? A replied to everything someone said to me. If I put an exclamation point or put it all in caps or something, I could understand. But no. I typed in normal sentences.

Because you care more about how you look to the town and how many votes are on your wagon than how effective you are at this game. It seems like the only time you've shown a serious interest in the game is when someone has pressured you a little bit. It's not just one post saying, "Hey, can you explain this vote on me Caboose?" you have three consecutive posts whining about how gloating isn't a scumtell, asking him to prove you gloated, and daring him to prove it's a scumtell.

You ever consider, I don't know, maybe Caboose was just feeling you out? Seeing how you'd react to the pressure?

Vote: RedCoyote

Do you think OMGUS votes make you look more town?

---

I can't see RC as scum at the moment if for no other reason that he was mastin's lynch target. I've never seen anyone but a pro town player being a lynchee (sans bastard mod games).

This bears repeating if only to remind the greater town about what's generally accepted practice in games like this.

---

I just got accepted to University of Toledo College of Medicine, so have been pretty busy.

Congrats, ryan.

[RedCoyote]

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

What reason would he have to lie if he was lynched? He can no longer win, zu.

In his first post spoke much against Amished. Then listed about a dozen players whom he liked to be lynched, but Amished was not there. Amished never replied to this post, but RedCoyote did not push it. Possible scum pairing.

Hm, this is either delibrately taking me out of context or it is just adding noise to make it look like you have more on me than you do.

For those playing at home, zu is essentially saying here that I had something to say about Amish, but didn't follow through with it.

Cause following is easier than leading. That and Mastin looks like he knows what he's about.

Hate this post.

Hmm, two mistakes (lack of preview for image fail, and not counting my vote). Clearly Mastin is lying about everything. LALiars, *ESPECIALLY* in random stage....

So... uh... he

doesn't

know what he's talking about now?

[...]

And I viewed page 2 to still be in the RVS. You posting a lot doesn't immediately get us anywhere, the game is a gradual process, and page 2 in a 27 player game is still part of the RVS in my eyes. Difference of opinion I guess.

I hate that excuse so much. "I thought it was still in RVS!" I took both of your votes, on Mastin and on Dust, seriously.

Your "better than thou" tone in response to Nanook, as well as your statement on "focusing our attention on scumhunting" in ISO 20 is crap as well. The majority of us are here to scumhunt. We do not need you to make us focused on our task at hand. If you weren't here, would we be unable to scumhunt? No.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Mastin elitist, which is what Amish is implying, but I do agree that scumhunting will continue as planned with or without Mastin's intervention.

But he conveniently skips over the fact that these things occurred

during

my read-through of the game, meaning I'm still constantly adjusting for input as I continue down the thread. I'll clarify this point even more by quoting myself again, later in the same post,

I love how you say meta will not work on you but then you proceed to link to other completed games and then say *again* that metagaming you won't work. Great work there.

Oh, this is good. This is good, Amish.

Mastin, isn't this a two-way street? You use meta to make your points, but you've said multiple times that it "doesn't work" when trying to read you?

This isn't sarcasm, so zu probably just missed this. I'm a little surprised zu didn't take the time to ask me my opinion on Amish before making the claim that he's my scumpartner, but it seems as though he's reading me through scum-tinted lenses anyway.

To address the point though, I thought Amish's responses later on in the game were town-sounding and fine. I'm certainly not going to quote every post I think is acceptable, only posts that stick out or ones that I have questions on. In that post specifically, when I was covering twelve pages of information, I don't need to quote every post.

This is why Amish wasn't on my list, while so many other players were.

Evading questions

Alvinz flip notwithstanding, town, in general, like nice, long days. zu may or may not agree with this, but this is a direct response to his question to why a townie wouldn't have wanted to hammer Mastin.

Some people put limits on discussion, some people say not all discussion is beneficial to town... etc. I have no idea what position zu takes, these are theoretical discussions, but there's no way that the question was "evaded" in any sense of the word.

Putting words in people's mouths

[...]

(I never said the person who hammewrs Mastin had to be town.)

I didn't accuse you of doing so... even the quote that

you

provided shows no evidence of me calling you out for that. I said that the person who hammers Mastin didn't have to be town, irrespective of your position on the matter.

When I later call him on [the person hammering doesn't have to be town] he does not respond.

If [zu doesn't] agree, then the hammer isn't going to be a tell to [him] in most scenarios anyways, and I'll drop the issue.

He did not respond to Phoebus accusation of Fishing (which I share)

Kind of like how Caboose and Phoebus never responded when I called them out for lining up lynches yesterday, zu?

I see no reason to comment on it because I don't consider analyzing information learned by deaths as rolefishing. I pointed out that one player was shot, another stabbed, and another was "ambushed". This, to me, suggested the possible presence of roles like a Gunsmith or a Hunter. I think, as town, it's important that we're all on the same page with that information. To me this also suggests we have at least two scum groups, one of which is using a knife rather than a gun. Maybe this is also rolefishing, but I tend to think it's rather townie to talk about how the deaths are being committed and what implications they have for us. I'll admit to this, and if someone wants to suspect me for doing this, then that's their perogative.

he did not reply to my vote

I don't think it has any traction, and I don't think you have a solid case.

Zer0, contrarily, is notably emotional, defensive, self-interested, and, in general, has been of little use this game so far.

He only replied to zerophear's vote with an OMGUS on a player who was (and is) heavily attacked.

This is flat wrong, I voted Zer0 before he voted me. He committed the OMGUS, not I.

And I know the reason he has done so as well, because he thinks he can latch onto your wagon of me to get himself out of trouble. If this kind of self-interest doesn't shoot a red flag with you, then you're ignoring Zer0's actions.

This seems pretty scummy to me. By leaving the lyncher alive, the scum have the advantage of having one more player who also wants town to mislynch.

There it is again. This is what absolutely fueled my "non-Mastin" voting yesterday, this mentality right here. This fear of using our lynch because we could potentially mislynch.

It makes no difference what Mastin's intentions were yesterday, we don't need to be consulting him for lynching advice regardless. He was, in my eyes, a non-factor in this game from the moment I realized his role. I think his suspicions of Dust and Amish were misguided, and I made my position clear on that.

Yesyes, mastin

allegedly

could not win D1, yadda yadda.

If you think Dev is lying, why are you not pushing him? I'd say him being able to predict Mastin as a Lyncher practically confirms him... this quote implies that you still doubt Dev's role.

If kept around to D2 those players opposing a mastin lynch could have said that we should lynch someone other than him.

Speculation. You can't make this argument with any validity because the opportunity to use our lynch for information yesterday is now lost.

This is scummy; scum often ignore each other, in case one of them dies early, so that all the players looking for connections get worked up about other players.

So I was distancing from Tar but buddying with Amish? I have a pretty complex scum-sided playstyle, zu.

I did agree with Tar, and there's no way of changing this fact. Obviously this wasn't the person I should've been agreeing with, in retrospect. If your tell is guilt by association, then there's little more I can say.

---

RedCoyote, if you honestly think I care about how I look to the town, then obviously have not read my posts. I don't give a flying *MEAT* about what the town thinks of me or anyone in this game.

Then, if you would, rationally explain to me why, after one vote today, you needed to make three posts questioning Caboose's validity for casting that vote.

To me, it seems like the only people you care about in this game are those that vote you and suspect you. Could you prove me wrong?

---

Unvote, Vote: ZeroPhear

Vote: Zero

Vote : Zer0ph34r

Vote: Zer0ph34r

Can't say I'm against this wagon, but this does seem a little quick.

---

The reason I'm thinking this way is that I can see Alvinz being a vig kill (lurking and then putting down the hammer without a real explanation which I would view as pretty scummy). Tar must've killed Zwet what with Dev's ambush ability claim on him which explains those two deaths. Last one could be an SK, but I'm not as sure about that. It still would make sense to have a largerish scum group and an SK balance wise. Two anti-town NK abilities, but 1 member for the second NK. The numbers would still probably fall in the typical % range with only 1 sk and a bigger scum group

This sounds similar to what I was thinking, only I figured K7 was probably a Vig kill. Yeah, it seems like a lot of power for us to have (Tracker, Watcher, Vig, JOAT... potentially more). Despite Stevie's observation, I tend to think we're looking at two scum groups more than a scum group and an SK.

The only thing I would bet on would be that one of those kills was on account of a Vig.

[RedCoyote]

I have absolutely no read on Zero, the chance of him being scum is random. He plays this way everygame. Can't we have him replaced?

I've never heard of this. Is it common practice in Large games to have active players replaced who have a strange playstyle?

I was trying to see how you react under pressure and if you'd react to a vote without any additional information. I'll leave that vote on you until I thoroughly analyze your response.

I respect that, and I'm not particularly fond of picking you for scum at the moment, for what that's worth.

After he was dead, he could no longer win. Then he also could no longer lie.
When he was alive, he could still win, but only by lieing to us. Therefore I'll assume he lied to us.

He had plenty of opportunity at L-1 and L-2, when other players made their intentions clear (e.g. WC) that they were going to vote him. Mastin, I think, realized he was going to be lynched, despite his efforts, and that's why he stopped posting.

What reason would he have had for lying to us then? After he realized he was going to be lynched I mean.

---

It's not that complex, and I'd say many people do this. It's just most often seen in bussing situations: you bus your scum buddy A and you do so with scum buddy B.

But it doesn't have to be that extreme.

Do you agree with zu's analysis then?

---

And someone do me a favor, tell me my scum tells. I'm sure I can explain/defend them all. And I KNOW there will be people thinking that I will just be scrambling, but I don't care.

You're not a fool, you're just not as adept at hiding your self-interests. You have a reason to stay alive, which is why you are blowing up when you're put at L-11.

Let's compare two situations, Zer0.

Situation A

Are you anti-town? Superficial changes aren't going to help you.

vote: Kise

I'm pretty sure there were a few people who said his posts were a distraction and didn't want him clogging up the thread. If I quoted WC's message, it would have been kinda thick, so, no thanks still.

Anyway, White Castle?

Situation B

Well, that sucks.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

White Castle, I never said anything was my fault. This is so typical. People put words in my mouth. Everytime I claimed scum, it was obviously my fault. Who the hell's fault would it be?

Caboose, what sucks that I said in that quote? That a mafia goon is dead? I would think that's good.

Caboose, are you denying the fact that a mafia goon dying is beneficial to the town?

DAY 2 MAFIA ERRORS - Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

What point are you proving? Has anyone done any of this?

Um, no, person. I said mafia goon dying is GOOD. When did I EVER say it was scummy?

Why would that make me scum? Is that not good that a mafia goon is dead?

As of the last votecount, Kise still has one vote from zora (which, I'll bet if you asked zora, probably isn't a very strong position to begin with) compared to your wagon, Zer0, which has six relatively steady votes.

I contend this wagon has very much to do with how poorly you handled the situation. You show fear, anger, and petulance.

Caboose did nothing to provoke you, he cast a simple vote off of a simple scumtell. Your situation could be very similar to Kise's, but instead you chose to make a fuss over something undeniably minor. Unlike players like Dev, Kise, and zu, I'm not just going to write you off as "unreadable" or "inexperienced" or whatever, I think you're backpedaling and I think you're still attempting to appeal to the town's emotions with you calling yourself a fool who doesn't know what he's doing.

This quote in particular is jaw-droppingly scummy to me. Not even a self-proclaimed "fool" would be dense enough to make a comment like that.

---

Of course you may think he is town. But your reason (you said it was ONLY because he was Mastin's target) is so terribly weak. And I said why quite clearly. So you should not be confused.

How is Ace's meta on Mastin any different than your meta on Zer0?

It did not seem so clear from the original post. It was 2 very bad points and one very good, which seemed weird after your sprayed your accusations all around.

Fair enough, but you are welcome to ask me for any positions I have on any players at any given time. I'm never shy about my opinions and am always happy to give them out.

"Irrespective of your position on the matter"? That sounded different back then.

To be fair, my position was (and still is) hesistant toward Stevie.

The meaning should have been obvious, as I had in in the quote below.

Addressed above. I didn't claim you were calling the hammer town, because I knew you said it was a null tell. If it's a null tell, I think we should default the position toward the theory on longer/shorter days, giving Stevie at least a slight scumread for me.

Seeing as how you don't take my position on longer/shorter days, I would suppose you'd feel the exact opposite?

Then again, I don't think it's a null tell to begin with, so it's hard to come to an equal definition to have the argument from.

a) The original accusation was for your Copfishing.
b) Of course it is fishing if you say: "Does anyone believe we have a cop/gunsmith/hunter?"
c) More baseless speculation.
d) Why don't we massclaim, so we are all on the same page with that information?

a) My mistake, I thought you had addressed something else. I'm not trying to "reveal" a Cop. There's a big difference between suspecting there might be a Cop and saying "player X" sounds like a Cop, the latter is what I would consider rolefishing, not the former.
b) I don't subscribe to that opinion.
c) It's speculative to say "player X" died of an Ambush and "player Y" died of a gunshot? Are you serious? That's important information. Dev has made it clear that he killed Tar, the town was only able to figure that out because of this so-called "baseless speculation".
d) That's my point though, this is where you and Phoebus have your definitions out of whack. Obviously I don't want a massclaim, but I'm also not saying that ryan, for example. sounds like a town Cop because of Jebus' flavor.

That's

rolefishing and

that's

baseless speculation. Saying that someone died from a stab and someone died from a gunshot means there is likely an anti-town force at work without a gun, that is not rolefishing. If that was rolefishing, then any analysis of the night actions at all would be counterproductive.

I don't like how you point to other players.

I don't like how you speak for Zer0's defense.

The knowledge that we were more likely to mislynch with him alive.

Why? Why would you let his opinion have any influence on your decision?

---

How exactly does the ambush work exactly? What are the actual game rules/mechanics behind it?

zu, is this baseless?

But, do I believe Mastin? No.

What reason did he have to lie, realizing that he was going to be lynched?

@RC: Wait wait wait, Caboose and Phoebus were lining up lynches D1?

Phoebus
Caboose

These players are actually fairly similar.

---

It's not even just the speed of the bandwagon but look at the four players who jump really quickly to it. Not exactly four players who I would've described as overly pro-town on D1.

It's kind of a strange mix of players we have on the Zer0 bandwagon.

---

Post 1145

Did you talk about Ace much during D1?

---

I've never heard of any sort of souped-up SK. I very much think Dev is still confirmed town, and I'm honestly not sure why this is being brought back up for discussion. zu mentioned he was possibly a mafia-sided Cop, but do they get the actual role information? That doesn't sound right.

[RedCoyote]

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-7

Zer0ph34r - 4

(Caboose, cateraction, King, RedCoyote)

RedCoyote - 3

(Phoebus, Zu_Faul, Zer0ph34r)

cateraction - 2

(Kise, orangepenguin)

hewitt - 2

(Empking's Alt, StevieT92)

Kise - 1

(zoraster)

Caboose - 1

(hewitt)

Zu_Faul - 1

(AceMarksman)

AceMarksman - 1

(NanooktheWolf)

NanooktheWolf - 1

(ryan2754)

Not Voting - 6

(Everyone else)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

---

(By the way,

Mod

, I should be on the Zer0 wagon as of post 1079).

Fixed, thanks :3

RC, what do you mean by "Strange mix" in 1151

Caboose was not one of the most vocal, but certainly one of the most dedicated anti-Mastin players yesterday. cater also wasn't very vocal either, but he was a fairly strong supporter of using our lynch for scum yesterday.

King was one of the main lurkers yesterday, while Stevie was relatively opinionated. You, ryan, changed your mind about the Mastin situation.

Nanook, unlike King or Stevie, never seemed as certain about his vote to lynch Mastin as some of the others on the wagon, whereas I was more like cater.

All of this is what I mean by a strange mix.

[RedCoyote]

V/LA? You said you were going to have a post for us.

[RedCoyote]

jeromus, have you gotten a chance to look over some of D1? What do you think of these charges against the person you replaced?

Amished, jeromus, Maturin, WC, Dev, and Azhrei, is there a reason y'all aren't voting anyone? If so, what is it? If not, are you planning on voting someone soon? Why or why not?

[RedCoyote]

True Scummers use braille when they can't see the screen.

XD

Just kidding, Zer0. I hope everything went well and your eyes feel great.

[RedCoyote]

I think he is jester due to the sheer daftness of everything he's said. It just doesnt add up.

Oh, Dev, I meant to comment on this.

You've been talking a lot about a Jester role. Traditionally, I've heard, it's rare for this role to appear in closed games. I'm sure the more experience players can give you more insight, but MS, in general, has a very different approach to this role in particular than EM does.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I get what you are trying to say, and I think any 4th grader would, too.

Now I need to hear from Phoebus because my initial reaction is that I don't think what you just did was necessary or helpful in any way.

[RedCoyote]

which was obviously a HUGE mistake. I love how players got all huffy about Mastin being the center of conversation and stuff and today is completely dead. I think getting rid of Mastin could have killed us and I think scum knew this. Players like Caboose obviously used this to their advantage.

This is a great point, hewitt.

zora, Caboose, Stevie, WC, Kise, Phoebus, OP, Zu, and whoever else?

Didn't y'all all say, at one point or another, that D2 would be too distracting with Mastin around? The place is dead.

I mean, we just had a person claim Mason with a partner, does anyone care at all about that? Are we going to address it? What about Zer0? Do you buy his appeals? If so, then what are you going to do next? If not, then why hasn't anyone voted anyone in over a week?

Mastin sure would've been on top of it.

[RedCoyote]

Huh. Need to be replaced after the post you just made?

I just have to wonder what was going through your head. You had no pressure on you whatsoever... maybe Phoebus can shed a little light.

[RedCoyote]

Would anybody disagree and say that these players (Caboose, zu_faul, King, AceMarksman, StevieT92, and Amished) were not scummy on D1 and continue to be scummy today?

I would take Zu and Amish off that list, I'm not happy about their activity as of late but I don't see either of those players to be particularly scummy right now.

The rest of the players I would gladly vote.

Who do you think is the scummiest, why do you think they are the scummiest, why are you not voting for them if you're not, and why are you not building cases and helping the town at the moment?

1) Zero
2) Post 1151
3) N/A
4) He hasn't done much since, other than gripe about wanting to stay alive.

---

Just because RedCoyote may not have seemed suspicious or scummy to you, doesn't mean he didn't look that way to me. He did, hence the vote.

It was just coincidental that you saw me as "suspicious or scummy" right after I voted you? Right after you noticed that I had two other votes on me at the time?

---

Seeing as we are coming to deadline, what happens if there is no majority? Does the highest vote getter get lynched or is it a no lynch?

Mod?

Cateraction: Why do YOU think Zero is the scummiest? For once I LIKED a zero post (1254).

It was good of him to call out cater, but I don't think there's anything special about that post. He could've used the time to show how his argument is more valid than anyone else's, but he didn't. He seems more content letting zu and Phoebus do the work for him, he can just ride the wagon in comfort.

---

And besides, if I did, people would just once again say I'm scummy.

What will they say about you if you keep trying to appeal to their emotions like you did here?

---

No one really stands out as scummy to ne. Dust is the most solid scumread I've had, so I guess I will do what Hewitt asks, and vote for the person I think is most scum.

Dust has been replaced... wake up, Stevie.

---

I may have forgotten.. What are the cases against Red Coyote & Ace? (in a nutshell)

zu and Phoebus accused me of rolefishing, Zer0 agreed with them after I voted him.

Against Ace it looks to be that players think the way he changed his opinion yesterday was artificial and the way he's been absent today is suspicious.

---

I feel like his wagon is being ignored - his wagon that shows ties to actual confirmed scum, in favor of Zero's massive collection of scum tells. I mean, if it comes to the deadline, I'll probably switch over to Zero, so we lynch somebody scummy, but I feel that cateraction is scummy and he should be lynched, but his wagon got pushed aside when Zero started his whole reactionary scummyness.

I have no qualms with a cater lynch, I think it would be good to narrow down our selection of lynches today to cater and Zer0, as they both seem to be popular wagons.

---

I don't know what anybody expects me to do with the cateraction wagon, I never supported it, I haven't seen a case on him that compels me yet so I'm indifferent to it.

The case on cater, so far as I can tell, rests on two major premises:

1) Opportunism. cater, like Zer0, has jumped on a popular wagon without really contributing to it possibly as a means of concealing their own wagons.
2) Relationship with Tar. cater was somewhat buddying with Tar yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

hewitt, is there any particular reason that you're deadset against lynching Zer0 and/or cater?

[RedCoyote]

Ok, just making sure.

[RedCoyote]

Really though any comment on the players on the zerophear lynch?

Like I've said earlier, it's no doubt a strange group of people. My opinion on King could be better, but Zer0 claimed vanilla, and I am not changing my vote on account of a few questionable people on the wagon this close to the deadline, that's for dang sure.

I see the foundation for a real case against Ace, and his strange activity levels have made me nervous, but I'm not prepared to switch to him.

I'd honestly like you to consider compromising this one, hewitt. Caboose is no superstar in this game, but even you have to admit the playstyle he's using falls in line with his townmeta.

---

Does anyone know if Alvinz95 replaced into the game or not?

Alvinz was originally signed up from the beginning of the game.

It's hard to make an assessment in this game since there seems to be a number of people defending each other. It's not that I have a hard time ignoring the opinions of others, just that I'm trying to keep up with possible pairings and.. failing at it.

In a game this large, that's bound to happen. As a complete outside of the game suggestion, maybe try writing notes on Notepad and just saving it to your desktop? Just keep a few basic things, tells you think may be important, maybe a list of your most townie/most scummy players, etc.

---

You said he stopped posting when he realised he was gone. I agree with this. This does not make make what he said befreo any more or less true.

If we both agree that Mastin realized he was the lynch, that his fate was sealed, then what reason did he have to lie at that point?

Meta on a lyncher?

Well, Ace still has a more unique perspective than either of us, having played with him prior to this game.

The thing is, you are analysing the

flavour

, not the actions.

It likely would have had an effect on my analysis of any hypothetical Cop claim in the future had I not brought it up.

I wouldn't, but I don't trust the other players in the game to do the same.

Who?

What? Never had a powered-up SK? I thought you had experience.

Why would a scum cop get different information than a pro-town cop?

I've heard of an SK with the ability to survive a gunshot, but I was under the impression that Large

Normal

games don't have anything screwy going on with the roles, in general.

Because you said that there was a possibility Dev was a mafia-sided Cop, and if that's the case, I would ask how he was able to figure out specific role information about Mastin (e.g. his win condition).

I think there is a majority of players who want someone else than zer0p3ar lynched.

I disagree, I think the only reason he hasn't been lynched is because of inactivity.

---

Despite me being town, you should lynch me, because I'm not going to continue to do anything if you're all going to continue to put words in my mouth and vote based on retarded things.

"Everyone who votes me is voting for retarded reasons".

I think you're bluffing, Zer0. You've been around as long as I have, and I think you're playing to this "lol how i plays mafier" card up to the hilt. I think you know better than to call people retarded because they are suspicious of you, I think you're just trying make it look as though you are a permanent frustrated townie.

---

What about my voting habits made you uncomfortable D1?

Ace, I think I speak for everybody when I say you are overdue for a decent post with some content (similar to Amish's).

---

The thing I get most from him is bad playstyle/erratic. In his first 13 posts, he said that he refused to vote for somebody that wasn't scum (and mentioned that Mastin wasn't) then voted for Mastin anyways. Classic "damn" @ the start of the day, though rereading that with the "."

[...]

The quick wagon against him makes me think he's town.

Although I think the speed of the wagon would be the only point I could give you in favor of Zer0 town, it really can't outweigh the scumtells in this instance.

I'm not prepared to write Zer0 off as unreadable just because he has an "erratic" playstyle.

---

I'm a townie, therefore, lynching me would do no benefits for the town.

In other words, you don't care what happens, as long as you're not lynched?

[RedCoyote]

I'm really not comfortable with this. Not so much because I think Ace is extremely town sounding, but I'd really prefer to hear more from him.

And I've heard enough from Zer0, who has already claimed.

unvote; vote: AceMarksman

It looks like we have about 5 hours if the Mod's post is accurate.

[RedCoyote]

Backup Mod Edit Votecount 3-2

Zer0ph34r (5) - orangepenguin, Kise, White Castle, cateraction, King
Amished (1) - kmd4390
AceMarksman (1) - Amished
RedCoyote (1) - Zer0ph34r

Not Voting (10) - Azerhi, jeromus, Caboose, NanookTheWolf, zoraster, hewitt, ryan2754, RedCoyote, AceMarksman, Phoebus

Initial knee-jerk reaction post to nightkills/end Day 2:

∙Frustration that Zer0 was abandoned as a lynch now even moreso after his unwillingness to hammer Ace.
∙Not buying WC's claim that he misread the votecount, but frustrated with myself for not making it clear that I had counted the votes before I cast mine and knew I was putting Ace at L-1 and not hammering him.
∙Noticed the four terms that took place last night (Empking (Vanilla Townie) Killed, zu (Vanilla Townie) Dissolved, Dev (JOAT) Shot, Stevie (Hate-Club member) Beaten) with the ones that took place the night before (Alvinz (Doctor) Slashed, Zwet (Watcher) Shot, Tar (Mafia Goon) Ambushed, and K7 (Tracker) Beaten). To contrast them a little, we know Dev killed Tar with an ambush yesterday, so that is unique to him. A person was

shot

and

beaten

both nights, indicating to me that these are probably recurring night actions of a scum group.
∙Hate-Club indicates there is another scum faction, but they are

not

responsible for the deaths caused by beatings, which leads me to believe they are the ones shooting.
∙I'm surprised with Empking as a scum kill, and am leaning toward a town-sided role shot him.
∙I'm extremely surprised that Azhrei/Phoebus weren't touched.

---

Tar died from killing zwet (who was shot) so the mafia is probably responsible for Dev's death last night.

Dev claimed to have killed Tar yesterday, is this what you mean here? Either I am misunderstanding you or we need to get on the same page.

Zu was pretty active so I don't think that he was killed by a pro-town role as this game was dying out and he was keeping it alive (pro-town before his death and confirmed now). EMP was kinda iffy along those lines, so I could see possibly a pro-town (or acting pro-town if sk or something) going after him.

Agree with all of this.

---

I've learned my lesson the next time I count votes though.

I, for one, am extremely skeptical of both your story and your play this game. You had the same reluctance to vote yesterday, and I gather it is because you think, in a game as large as this, you will have the opportunity to play off your non-voting behavior as a "position of caution".

You are near the top of my scumlist.

---

I did not expect there to be a hate club. Good thing Stevie's dead though. I never would've expected him.

The same over-acting that got you in trouble yesterday.

The statement, "I did not expect there to be a hate club", to me, sounds like you are commenting from the position of being in another scum faction and thinking y'all were the only scum group. That may be a stretch, but I can think of little other reason to make such an obvious observation.

---

Vote: Zer0ph34r

He needs to die. Read --->

Great find. One more thing to add to the list.

---

Vote: RedCoyote

Was there a reason for this or is this just picking up where you left off because you see nothing interesting/opinion changing happened over the course of the night?

---

Why aren't you two voting Zer0? Let's get the ball rolling.

As confident I am that Zer0 is mafia, you should cool your jets, Kise. There are other things that need to be discussed today.

---

Can I see a case on both? Particularly Zer0 who you seem more sure of.

Welcome, thanks for replacing. I know you aren't asking me, but I want to make sure you understand why Zer0 is in the crosshairs at the moment.

In addition to what Kise pointed out,
Post 1079
Post 1094
Post 1151 (mid-way through)

His D1 activity wasn't spectacular, and he's also already claimed vanilla townie I believe (I'd have to look for the post though).

As far as Ace goes, what makes me most suspicious is the fact that he wasn't hammered yesterday.

---

As per Azhrei's ISO 27 (his last post before requesting replacement) where he claimed mason buddies with Phoebus under no pressure on either of them I'd say that he's pretty clear.

Normally I don't accept claims at face value in the first place, but because Phoebus has yet to comment on this, and because both players were left alive after I had brought it up at least three times yesterday, I am more skeptical of this claim now than I ever was.

I do not want any lynch to occur before we get a long overdue post from Phoebus. I also really want to hear from Ace, his reactions to the night activity and the wagon yesterday. Ace is absolutely not playing to the town-meta I have for him, for what that's worth. I'd also like to hear from hewitt.

[RedCoyote]

I don't care if what I say makes you think I'm scum because 90% of the time, it's based on something stupid.

Appeals to emotion, gloating, and self-interested motivations are all valid scumtells, regardless of whether you think they are "stupid" or not. Some players may give them more or less validity, as they're entitled to, but I'm not of the position that you "play like a fool" so we have to ignore you because we'll never be able to read you. I don't think you have a valid reason at all for voting no lynch yesterday (which is what you did when you ignored the Ace wagon), and I don't think you have an excuse for Kise's accusation that you flipped on Mastin.

And yes, I kept my vote for you because I am quite comfortable with it and still want you lynched and nothing has changed my mind [yet].

Even at the cost of no lynching again?

---

Red, I can't usually open links on this computer and don't have much time, so I'll look back at those post numbers later.

Alright, well, don't forget!

---

not to confuse matters, but one is a mafia and the other is a club. Possibly Mafia Masons or Cult?

I was thinking about that, too. It seemed weird how Stevie was called a "Hate-Club member". I do think they have a killing ability though.

---

@Red: I'm saying that Tar was killed because he was "ambushed" by dev. So Tar killed Zwet (who was shot). That means to me that since Dev was shot, Tar's group also killed Dev.

Ok, we're on the same page then.

Personally, I think you'd be better off looking at people mindlessly bandwagoning (confirmed StevieT scum on Zero during D2 is a great example)

This would be a good point if not for the multiple factions that were revealed as of yesterday's killings. It all depends on what exactly the Hate club is.

---

Unvote, Vote: cateraction

for being 100% completely opportunistic scum right here. Pretty ridiculous.

Huh? That seems like a valid reason to me, and cater isn't running from any wagon.

Why is Zer0 excused from allowing a no lynch to go through yesterday?

---

I didn't hop on Zer0's wagon during day 2 because the "case" was that Zer0 was using the "Aw man, power roles died, but at least we a goon did too" scumtell. I didn't buy it, so I didn't bandwagon him.

That's a very misleading exaggeration, but even if it were true, why didn't you end up voting Ace (as he seemed to essentially be the "alternative" lynch after Zer0)? Heck, why didn't you try to vote anyone, knowing that the deadline was arriving?

---

It is inappropriate at this stage in the game to be voting for players based on shitty ass cases or (like in this case) without giving reasoning at all!

I honestly want to hear why Zer0 causing a no lynch yesterday is a "shitty ass case". I agree cater could spend a little more time with the game, but I think his opinion is valid.

I should add that I don't think Ace is necessarily a bad lynch, as a matter of fact I think he's quite a good player to go after again.

[RedCoyote]

I can think of a reason I can be excused from the no-lynch. It's expected of me.

Does hewitt and Kmd (or anyone else) agree with this? Zer0 should be exempt from helping the town because he's expected to play badly?

---

Uh ZeroPhear didn't cause a no lynch yesterday. There was obviously a majority of other players who did not vote from AceMarksmen too. That is all of their fault not just ZeroPhear.

Dodging the question. Is it or is it not valid for Zer0 to be called to task for no lynching Ace yesterday?

You can copy and paste all the players who weren't on Ace yesterday, but you know that's completely misrepresentative of the bigger picture, so much so that, when you make post 1435, you look as though you are defending Zer0's actions.

I figured we were all scrupulous enough to understand that I meant Zer0

effectively

caused the no lynch, along with WC and arguably Kise as well. All of these players acted irresponsibly as the deadline inched closer and they continued to waste time. There was no excuse for any active player to miss that deadline. Kise last posted roughly 40 hours before the deadline, he showed no serious objections to an Ace lynch. WC posted 12 hours before the deadline, he showed no serious objections to an Ace lynch, other than he wanted the claim. Zer0 posted twice, 3 hours and 1 hour before the deadline. His objections to the wagon were he "knew" it was going to be a mistake because it was "too easy".

So, Zer0, being the last non-Ace voting player active around the deadline, had a serious decision to make. He could decide whether we lynch Ace or whether we no lynch. He decided to no lynch.

As for the rest of the players, Stevie is dead, Azheri was/is in V/LA, Maturin hasn't posted since D1, jeromus is in the process of being replaced as well, Empking is dead, Ace isn't going to hammer himself, Caboose and Phoebus hadn't posted for days prior to the deadline.

So, hewitt, for you to say Maturin had the same responsibility for the no lynch as Zer0 did, I have a hard time believing that's just irresponsible fact checking. I think you

know

that argument is disingenuous, and you are using it anyways. Why?

And you agree with cateraction that he's given sufficient reasons for his votes? Mmmmm going to have to disagree on that one.

There's no need to exaggerate. I agree with cater's reasoning

for voting Zer0

, and you haven't shown where the argument is flawed.

---

would you honestly even expect me to vote for him just because you told me to? [that "you" is directed to anyone and everyone in general]

I would expect a townie to vote to prevent a no lynch. Apparently you don't feel the same way, and I'm concerned with why hewitt and others are willing to look the other way in your case. I mean, I had reservations with an Ace lynch myself, but mafia is a team game involving a lot of debate, consideration for multiple possibilities, and, of course,

compromise

.

I wanted you lynched much more than Ace, Zer0. But, based on the options in front of me, I saw it as better for us, in the long run, to get on board the growing wagon as the deadline drew closer. So, even though I wasn't sure whether Ace was town or not, I joined the wagon.

I know you wanted me lynched, and that's your perogative, but you knew when you posted 1 hour and 3 hours from the deadline that there was no way I was going to be lynched.

---

This looks more like a player who gets frustrated when things aren't going his way. Ever play with Dejkha? That's who Zer0 reminds me of in these posts. Not necessarily scummy, but definitely not good play.

So then how do you handle these players? Ignore them?

I don't buy the argument that some players will just be bad regardless. Some players are consistent lurkers, I understand that, but Zer0 has the experience to know that causing a no lynch in a situation like we were in yesterday was unacceptable.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, have you sent out prods to the players WC listed? Is ZazieR coming soon or is he replacing on a certain date?

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, I'll make a better post soon. WC, you are right, I wanted to make a more thorough post, but I was out of town this past weekend and... well... to be honest I am really frustrated that both Phoebus and Azhrei left right after Azhrei's bombshell. I'm frustrated with Zer0, King, Ace, Caboose, and jeromus.

As harsh as I've been with hewitt, I can't deny that y'all have a good point about Zer0 being "too scummy to be scum", but, it's like, I just don't see any reasonable town explanation for what he did yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

I'm also frustrated that a no lynch happened, and that I was a part of it.

That's all well and good, but you were a serious factor in it. Like I've said, it's arguable whether or not to include Kise, but I can easily pinpoint directly at both you and Zer0 as the main causes. Now, you've since tried to explain your position, and I can at least respect that more than I can Zer0's position, but not only didn't you vote Ace (with all of the information you are giving us (e.g. post counts/times), it's hard for me to rationalize you not going back and checking the vote count), you didn't vote anyone at all. I don't really know who you suspected yesterday.

I'd like to point out that you are frustrated with yourself as well. You have yet to take any blame for not specifically telling us that the vote count was off when you voted Ace.

That isn't my duty, WC. Even if I should be held accountable for counting the votes for y'all, I expected you or Zer0 or someone else to get back here and vote. Moreover, the context of my post is written in such a way that I expected people to understand that the deadline was still a factor.

So I'm at the top of your scumlist? Why? If the only reason is that I miscounted votes, then that's pretty weak.

You're not

at

the top, but you are in the top three. I'd like to see you, Ace, or Zer0 lynched today.

The NL is a serious infraction, but that alone wouldn't be enough. Anyone is welcome to look back at your posts after you replaced and scour for anything that resembles serious suspicions. Who did you vote D1, Mastin? Anyone? I don't know, I've have to check, but I welcome anyone to look back over your posts after you replaced and try to find you getting into more depth of the game than, "I'm 99% sure I am voting Mastin!" with the rest of the wagon. What about yesterday? I know you were gone for a little while, but I remember next to nothing in regards to hunting yesterday. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're the first player, aside from the lurkers, that I would accuse of flying under the radar. Name anyone else, hewitt, OP, cater, hell even King, and I would give them more credit for giving their opinions this game than you have.

I'll grant you you've made somewhat of a turn around today, but now that change in your play is making me scratch my head as well.

What's worse - the guy who miscounts or the guy who doesn't tell everyone about the miscount? It is very convenient for you to blame others and not yourself.

Again, it's not my job to be a babysitter. Frankly, my comment about there being five hours left was meant to signify that someone else needed to vote Ace, or else I wouldn't have mentioned the deadline at all.

Even leaving all of that aside, even if I were to concede that I should've forewarned everyone more clearly, what difference would it have made in your case? Did you ever show up after I posted?

Any reason why you haven't voted today? I know you don't want anyone lynched before the masons return, but getting a vote down would help in scumhunting by vote analysis.

You're certainly one to talk about getting votes down.

With Phoebus gone, which, if you ask me, is poor sportsmanship by him (regardless of his real-life situation, he's posted more than once since Azhrei left, and he should've taken the time to explain Azhrei's statement in some way, I see no excuse for that), and Ace gone, I think the town's two best assets at getting real setup information are out the window. I think replacements, if anyone is brave enough to take that on, won't come for at least 2-3 weeks. They'll be useless, and I can't blame them for it. I think the town has to rely far too much on luck from this point on based, in some part, on you and Zer0 dropping the ball.

It pains me to let Zer0 stick around this game; I don't buy that he's just a bad player, and I think he's taking the ball and running with it down the field for a touchdown. That being said, I think the town will learn a little more if we were to

vote: AceMarksman

than if we were to lynch Zer0.

I'm still not opposed to a Zer0 lynch, however.

---

I''m here

Welcome Zaz, if I haven't said it already.

---

Of course it is a likely story. In a game this large, there is bound to be plenty of people without interesting roles. I just happen to be one of them. I obviously can't prove this but who can really prove anything. Trust me or don't.

I'm going to choose "don't" as well. I don't see why you aren't participating, frankly. This looks like your second game? Are you just not interested or what? It just seems like you aren't interested in playing to me, which could easily be read as lurking. What do you think of WC? The NL yesterday? Do you have any questions for Zaz or Javert? Is OP wrong to pressure you into showing more activity? If the Zer0 wagon doesn't pan out, do you have an alternative? Why?

---

I can't deny that y'all have a good point about Zer0 being "too scummy to be scum", but, it's like, I just don't see any reasonable town explanation for what he did yesterday.

Does anyone have an answer for this, btw? Zer0 or anyone here? I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what motivation he had for doing this.

---

Oh, and King got scummy on this page.

He wasn't before?

---

And no you have not responded adequatel enough to explain yourself. You most definitely are opportunistic and have done nothing to dissuade that.

Can someone explain to me how jumping on a 2 person wagon, when it takes 10 to lynch, is opportunistic? I think this reason is still weak, personally, and I don't mind being called out chainsawing for it. I can think of at least five better lynches than cater today.

---

I did not like the attacks on Azhrei and Hewitt on Day One for their suggestions of saving Mastin for later. zoraster sticks out to me the most, although there were certainly others.

Welcome Javert, thanks for replacing.

I think zora is a great stone to overturn. Much like King, zora took a strong position D1 and has done virtually nothing since. Unlike King, however, zora has really played much differently than D1, when King has been at least consistent about his activity.

zora, I think I'd like you to answer the same questions I posed to King. Additionally, would you agree or disagree with my juxtaposing you and him as similar in this game?

zer0ph34r

: Unfortunately he reads slightly town to me, but I do hope he is nightkilled.

Refer to my post 1533 when you get a chance, please.

OrangePenguin

: I need to read him again, but his suggestion that zer0 was “scum gloating” has continually struck me as being ridiculous.

I don't agree with this. OP has essentially done a 180 from D1 in my eyes, he's near the top of my town list right now. I think OP did well to pressure Zer0, I didn't see anything ulterior or ridiculous in that at all.

I also disagree with your suspicions of Amish, but I'm glad we both agree on cater.

---

Tsk, tsk, Javert. That sounds like something I would say.

What are you referring to?

---

Mastin = not scum (was even confirmed) but was he a major distraction and hurting the town by causing WIFOM and posting walls o' text and causing people to lose interest?

I'm drawing the line here. Although I think you are town in spite of our disagreements, this is flat wrong. D2 was still full of people "losing interest". Mastin had little to nothing to do with that. Whether he was distracting or not is your opinion, far be it from me to tell you what will and what won't bother you, but the assumption that the game was somehow more interesting without him has been proven false.

It goes without saying that, had we left Mastin alive D1, we surely would've gotten a lynch yesterday. I'd be happy to argue that position with anyone. All three of the people who could shoulder responsibility for the NL yesterday were on the Mastin wagon D1. Those same people sat around using the same rhetoric that we'd have a great D2 and our lynch D2 would be more accurate. All three of them ended up dropping the ball.

Do lurkers/people who post random irrelevant one-liners hurt town morale? Yes, so we should still get rid of them. Screw their alignment, they lost my loyalty the minute they decided to not participate that actively in our game.

As noble as that sounds, I think we're past that point.

ryan is right, if there's a town-sided shooter who thinks Zer0 is town, shooting him would be bad. You said it yourself that there could be anywhere from 4-8 scum still out there. Zer0 should've been yesterday's lynch. We missed that opportunity. Either him, Ace, or WC needs to be the lynch today, and I don't see, short of something really incriminating, how I could be persuaded otherwise.

---

Did anyone claim responsibility for shooting Stevie yesterday?

[RedCoyote]

One more thing, I think King, either inadvertently or not, soft claimed in post 1529. For our replacements, I count us as having two Vanilla Townies and two Mason claims out at this point.

Does anyone think anything should be done about this?

[RedCoyote]

Zaz,

Zer0 and King (basically) claimed 'nilla in posts 1221 and 1529, respectively.

Azhrei & Phoebus, read post 1214 very carefully.

---

I don't see how the WC v.s. Kmd thing is getting anywhere.

---

Regarding your comment about post 599, were you saying here that Zwet’s vote caught Stevie-scum?

Yes, at that time I was unimpressed with Stevie's play in the game. I called from fairly early on that Stevie wasn't playing particularly townie in my opinion. I can dig this up, but it was something he mentioned about Mastin's claim that struck me the wrong way.

As an aside, yes, me and Phoebus are masons. However, we aren't confirmed. Already asked the mod about it, as nowhere in the role PM was stated that we were confirmed to each other.
And there's one more mason.

Thank you. This is all I wanted to hear from Phoebus.

Likely scumpartners if he's part of a scumteam which I think he is.^^

I really like this observation, I hadn't saw this upon going back... especially post 358.

[RedCoyote]

Please do.

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

Then why would you bring it up?

However, although I did overlook the possibility of him being a lyncher, I think it fits right now.

I think you spoke too fast, too rashly, and now you're having to backpedal to save face.

Post 425 has a few things, but my issue was with his post 127 originally.

---

Lowell is here.

Welcome, Lowell.

---

Further, I do not much care for RedCoyote’s Post 1116 in particular: it seems sulkily written.

I actually thought my argument with zu helped me understand his position better in this game. I wasn't sure what to think of zu until mid-to-late D1. This argument was, from my perspective, against his rationale rather than zu himself.

As for any defense of me, I can't say much other than I still get town vibes from Amish, so-so vibes from zora, and scum vibes from Ace.

I think White Castle probably did not purposefully miscount at the end of D2, but he should have voted regardless. An “extra” vote after somebody is “lynched” is not going to hurt. White Castle, were you available to vote at the end of D2 and then choose not to post?

I think WC is getting a little too much love. Not particularly here, as this point specficially isn't very soft, but I'd like WC to get a little more pressure like this today.

---

Meaning that Stevie didn't get killed by the mafia faction, but by a different faction
In other words, if the other killing methods don't get repeated or get claimed by pro-town roles, we know that the Hate Club is actually a cult and not another mafia team.

I tend to agree that the Hate Club is likely a cult or not a traditional scum faction, but why do you think "beaten to death" necessarily means a scum faction and not, say, an SK? Unless scum faction implies that possibility, in which case just ignore this comment.

Phoebus:
Post 1170 – gut activated.

Explain what you mean by the post, please.

-The same almost goes for RC. Only he isn't voting the biggest wagon right now. Should also be looked if this fits with his suspicions.

I wasn't on the Mastin wagon, and the only reason I moved to Ace yesterday was to get the lynch through.

I do think now, however, Ace surviving yesterday should necessarily flame everyone's curiousity. We learn whether or not Ace is scum, then we learn whether or not Zer0 and WC are or are not more genuine for their D2 play.

Additionally, Nanook and zora might be given a little more creditability if Ace happens to flip scum.

---

@Whoever wants to answer: Why shouldn't Ace be lynched today?

[RedCoyote]

Due to something said in the QT, this post activates my gut.

Color me intrigued. What do you think may have happened to Phoebus? Do you think he's some sort of Mason Traitor role?

Is there a reason then not to lynch him?

Didn't you're mother ever tell you it's rude to answer a question with a question? XD

No, like I was saying earlier, I just think this town can connect a ton of information with an Ace lynch. Partial information from yesterday (Stevie/WC/Kise/Zer0 not voting Ace, Zer0's "hunch" that Ace is town when he threw the hammer away, zora/Nanook's start of the wagon, Ace's abandonment of this game since his wagon took shape) can be put together much better. I'm particularly interested in understanding Stevie's ties to Ace/Zer0 at the moment.

As far as serious reasons not to lynch him, well, the biggest one is that he's not here, although that didn't seem to stop the wagon yesterday. Normally this would make me more weary of a lynch on someone and I would want to wait for a replacement. Of course, a replacement would be benefical regardless, but on account of the waste D2 was (if D1 was a waste, D2 was a colossal waste) the Ace lynch seems particularly appealing despite not getting a claim from him. If it were up to me, we'd have had two successful lynches and Mastin would've been shot, however.

---

310- red coyote votes zu faul after long post [---, what??? VOTE MASTIN!!]

I know you are attempting to read quite a bit, but we had a serious policy argument between wasting our lynch on a non-scum, non-killing role who couldn't win the first day, and using our lynch for gaining information and potentially lynching an actual threat to the town.

As you can see, the former argument won out... and look how great the town is doing.

1) Everyone is insane for not immediately lynching mastin. A KNOWN anti-town force, D1, and folks are looking for something else. It makes no sense to me. Also worth noting, one of the confirmed scum (Stevie) found every bandwagon except mastin to join after the claim.

2) Devestation could have been cleared by a mastin lynch. Again, why aren't people more eager to do that?

1) In my opinion, as was the opinion of some other players (including, granted, a mafia goon), D1 is better used for getting more information about players than lynching known quantites. Obviously if Mastin was investigated to be scum, that would be another thing altogether, but, at least in my eyes, trading a JOAT for a Lyncher is a horrible deal.

2) Dev was clear the second Mastin confirmed him, there was just no logical reason for them to both agree to Dev's investigation otherwise.

1) I still CANNOT fathom why mastin isn't dead at this point. Why are so many people so set on mastin (a) being "recruited" by a role I for one have never heard of, and (b) being absolutely essential for the town. Not voting for mastin is terrible, and scummy.

Now that the argument is over with, it's hard for me to see how much productivity you're getting out of rehashing a policy argument. As you can plainly see, the argument went on for dozens of pages, you're not bringing anything new to your chosen side of it.

The biggest argument at the time, lynching Mastin will give us a wonderful, clear D2 where we can truly scumhunt, was proven completely false. Out of the biggest proponents of the Mastin lynch: zora, Caboose, King, and Phoebus (not counting OP because his stance was bias), one has been replaced, and the other three lurked throughout almost the entire D2.

Oh, and another thing, that the recruitable Mason (which, surprise, we do have according to Zaz) ended up claiming on D2

anyway

after the huge argument that even if Mastin was converted by a Mason Recruiter no Mason could vouch for him. Azhrei, by the way, was on the Mastin lynch D1.

I'm not going to say lynching Mastin was the cause of all this, but I will say that the proponents of the Mastin lynch were indeed those that caused all this. Look at the end of D2 for those who wasted their vote: Phoebus, Zer0, Caboose, Empking, Stevie, Ace, Azheri, WC, and Kise.* All of these players, with the exception of Kise and WC, were on the Mastin lynch D1 and

not

on the Ace wagon D2. All of these players who stood behind the "lynch Mastin now so we can do better tomorrow" crap completely threw away our opportunity to reap seemingly the only benefit of wasting our D1 lynch on a Lyncher who couldn't win that day.

red coyote

- 736 is incredibly underhanded. He tries to link all mastin voters with king's angry post. It's derailment and it's manipulative.

We have a serious disagreement about King's presence in this game then. Regardless, this is rehashing an old argument that was proven correct in either case. The Mastin wagon didn't want to discuss scumhunting, as is evidenced by D2; they had no plan for this game other than a short-term, "Mastin isn't town so he dies, fuck whatever else happens in the future".

I don't play that way. I knew if we'd waste our D1 lynch we'd be sitting here in D3 with less information than we should've had. Now I didn't think in a million years we'd have a no lynch on D2, but fate is not without a sense of irony.

---

Check my sig. 2.5 days shouldn't be too long

It's not like we'll exactly be missing your activity.

*Maturin and jeromus were left out for obvious reasons of inactivity.

[RedCoyote]

Mod Edit Votecount 3-14

cateraction - 4

(Kise, Amished, hewitt, orangepenguin)

Zer0ph34r - 3

(cateraction, King, ryan2754)

AceMarksman - 2

(RedCoyote, ZazieR)

kmd4390 - 1

(White Castle)

Amished - 1

(kmd4390)

RedCoyote - 1

(Zer0ph34r)

Not Voting - 6

(Lowell, NanookTheWolf, zoraster, AceMarksman, Phoebus, Javert)

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch.

---

Since I haven't heard any reasons posed to everyone as to why Ace shouldn't be lynched, I think it's time we rally around, get this lynch through, and move on with the information that provides.

[RedCoyote]

My largest concern with this vote is that AceMarksman is on the list to be replaced and hence cannot defend himself or claim his role. However, I do not get the feeling that Zer0ph34r is scum (and the quick wagon on him did not sit right with me).

This was the same position I was in yesterday about Ace. I held my vote out to the end because I wanted Ace to claim and give us more information before we lynched him, but I have to know, now, why Zer0 is so defensive of Ace. I need to know if there was a reason WC didn't throw his vote behind Ace, regardless as to whether he thought Ace was hammered or not. I need to know if Nanook and zora started this Ace wagon with good intentions or not. I need some sort of information to go off of, because this town has yet to have a true lynch to it's name. The Mastin lynch doesn't count because everyone already knew his role, so voting him or not was just a matter of how you play the game of Mafia from a political standpoint.

I still plan on making a case against RedCoyote before the game goes into night, just in case I die overnight.

I'm also interested in at least hearing what it is that piques your interest about me. Not to toot my own horn, but I think I've been playing this game fairly well thus far.

---

I think every player who voted AceMarksmen yesterday should be voting him again today and now WhiteCastle and ZeroPhear don't have an excuse not to vote him.

By the way, Zer0 still hasn't given us a reason for not voting him yesterday other than "the wagon doesn't feel right". This was said essentially said about an hour before the Mod ended the day.

---

Still feel Zero is the scummiest, especially including his no-vote yesterday.

I still agree with this, by the way. I've in no way shifted my position to that of Javert, hewitt, and Amish to say that Zer0 is town. I still think it's all an act, and I think Zer0's only saving grace yesterday was over some bickering about cater and because 4 lurkers happened to jump on the Zer0 wagon at around the same time.

---

A few people didn't vote yesterday, why is mine specifically suspicious?

If it hasn't been said a million times already, you were the last town player to post who wasn't voting Ace.

You held the hammer in your hand and you threw it away in favor of no lynch. You caused the town not to lynch yesterday. Period.

---

This newfound Ace wagon is making me extremely uncomfortable. I know that I was on his wagon yesterday and everything, but the quick bandwagoning on him is sort of suspicious

How is it suspicious? We have a deadline, cater is a poor lynch choice, and Ace, for all intents and purposes, should've been lynched yesterday. WC would've voted him yesterday, but he claims he miscounted. Kise would've voted him yesterday, but he claims he forgot about the deadline.

---

ryan2754, is that post meant to be a complaint? If so, why didn't you unvote AceMarksman?

I read it as "Of Course... you can hammer" but I could see this meaning as well. It kind of has an eerie resonance to it, does it not?

[RedCoyote]

You must understand a few things about your situation, Shrine.

For one, this player slot should've been lynched yesterday. There is no rational reason why he was not lynched yesterday.

Two, now that you've replaced, the town is admittedly in a more awkward position, but the town is also necessarily a little frustrated with the lack of control its had over this game. We've really lucked out in the kills of Tar and Stevie, as they were both killed on account of night actions. We absolutely need to lynch today.

I am Pro-Town.

That being said, I am willing to

unvote

and hear you out because of the deadline extension. I have no qualms with switching my vote, Ace, as you've correctly pointed out, was already somewhat of a compromise lynch to begin with. I didn't care for the cater wagon, and I think too many people view Zer0 as town. You won't have to work incredibly hard to get me to join another wagon. As I said, I am bloodthirsty, and we need to use a lynch (reasonably of course) today to get some real information.

What "information" will be yielded when I flip Innocent?
Probably nothing, and that's why voting someone 'for information' is ridiculous. If the subject flips Town, you wasted your time.

If that were the case, I would look to Day 2 for clues as to how Ace became the top wagon, because there would almost assuredly be scum pushing it along.

But you just jump on the bandwagon putting me at the risk of being lynched before I have said anything?
Honestly?!

I see you've met Zer0. XD

[RedCoyote]

I really don't like that claim. The town has lost a significant amount of power, and I think Shrine was doing a good job defending himself. I especially don't like how Javert asked for the claim after, one, he saw the deadline extension, two, he saw my unvote, three, that given the context of the votes from OP, KMD, and ryan, it looked like they may have been willing to hear Shrine out, and four, the big one, the fact that Javert himself unvoted Shrine.

It's my position that you do not ask for a claim from someone unless you feel as though they are in serious danger of a lynch. I don't know if there is a Mafia Roleblocker, but I do know the town lost a Doctor. Whether he's lynched or not, I think Shrine is in serious trouble now.

I will address Javert's arguments later, but I wanted to give my reaction to this before I left.

[RedCoyote]

The computer I use at work (when I primarily post) is a shared computer and one of the weekend people got some spyware/malware infecting this machine. Of course I have no admin privileges for the machine, so I cannot install any software to help combat this.

Anyways, long story short, I have to retype a post, I will try to get it in as soon as possible. I think Zaz is completely right though, and I think the burden of proof is with Shrine to show precedent of players making up their own kill flavor. I've never heard of this before. I think hewitt is still barking up the wrong tree with Javert, but I want to talk with Javert some more. Be back soon.

[RedCoyote]

The timing of the wagon simply felt (and still feels) protective of RedCoyote. While people were voting for Zer0ph34r, it feels like nobody was really commenting on RedCoyote.

I would like to refer you to this quote,

The RedCoyote wagon is leading nowhere. Also, he has answered to my points in a manner which I think is quite pro-townish. There were some misunderstandings.

The de facto leader of the wagon against me D2, who has now flipped town, waxes satisfaction as we discuss my play this game. I know you wouldn't expect me to answer for why it was my wagon never really garnered any steam. My understandably biased, arrogant answer would be that I'm just playing the game fairly well and there's little to push me on, especially in light of some of the other players in this game.

It seems to serve only two possible purposes. (1) It casts doubt on the Masons without officially saying so; and (2) It feels like it is directing other scum-groups into killing the Masons.

Rest assured that I am plenty skeptical of both Mason claims. I do not mean for that skepticism to be subtle in any way, and have no problems telling you here and now that I have taken the claims with a grain of salt.

To your second point, all I can respond with is that I am plainly curious as to why players like Empking and zu have died as townies yesterday when there has been a Doctor death already.

(i) RedCoyote failing to see Amished’s early posts as jokes; (ii) RedCoyote’s willingness to accept that he was Mastin’s lyncher target (I, for one, think it would be a stupid strategy to say your actual target’s fate is “intertwined” with your own); and (iii) RedCoyote’s agreement with the theory that Mastin might be converted to the town, which has continually struck me to be the most tenuous argument to keep Mastin alive.

1) I have no real response to this. I have not referenced these posts in some time, nor do I hold the opinion any longer that Amish sounds scummy. This was a very initial interpretation of posts that were made days before I was able to comment on the thread.

2) A biased opinion without question. My willingness to accept that label comes from the idea that I think Mastin was sure of his fate as the day drew to a close. He had no reason to lie at end of D1, as I've never heard of a Lyncher that could win after they were lynched. Mastin doesn't strike me as a person with a resentful personality, which is what I would look for when gauging the sincerity of a claim like that.

3) My opinion of D1 was fairly consistent in that the town has no business wasting a lynch on a non-threat whilst we lacked any information. If necessary, I can give you some quotes that give this a little more validity.

There are times when antagonizing somebody can be tactical as town, but I am not getting that feeling in this post.

Here we disagree over what is antagonizing and what is scumhunting. If I was harsh in that post, Zer0's reaction was still unwarranted.

---

Did Mastin say who his target was?

Well, even in that case, there's no saying whether Mastin's target was Anti-Town or Pro-Town...

Mastin claimed many times throughout D1 that I was his target for multiple reasons. If you can refer to a game where a Lyncher's target was revealed to be anti-town, then I will allow you that speculation. Otherwise you should assume the target was or is town.

I'm doubting, highly, that any of those last 3-5 players even looked at Ace [and probably focused on someone else], before casting their "Sure, following a bandwagon against a person who hasn't defended himself is better than No-Lynch"

And you hold this opinion in this scenario? Even after the Night 2 kills? Perhaps if D1 had gotten this town a serious lynch, a NL might have been more acceptable. As it stands, this NL has caused the town nothing but grief today.

---

I would rather have a claim from somebody who was likely to be lynched in a week before deadline as opposed to having them claim very close to the deadline.

And you do not agree that his wagon was losing steam prior to his claim? I've said nothing of a claim right at the deadline.

---

What are everybody’s thoughts on what I’ve posted?

Although I think Javert has made some questionable moves in regards to Shrine, I still largely think the position you have against him/Caboose is just not as pressing at the moment. I think Zaz caught Shrine on very shakey ground, I think Zer0 is still more scummy than anyone else gives him credit for, and I think WC has effectively lurked his way out of the serious D2 NL allegations. I think you have the makings of something bigger, but where is the silver bullet? What has Javert/Caboose done that is really as damning as Zer0 or Shrine?

---

Look over his posts. If you can''t see it, I know what you are.

Two scum caught.

This is obstinate, but I think you've since retracted this.

---

lol this is gonna be fun. Give me a year or so to catch up. Alternatively, feel free to give me a synopsis of where we're at.

Welcome BM.

Zaz's summary is pretty apt.

Do you have anything to add in regards to Azhrei's earlier claim (and Zaz's confirmation of it) that you and her are both Masons?

---

To elaborate I think Zazier is playing emotionally and not intellectually.

Does this apply to just you or to both you and Shrine?

---

I think Shrinehme is either a Serial Killer, or a Vigilante as he claims. I seriously doubt he is Mafia or a member of the Hate Club.

I agree with this, especially due to the fact that Shrine takes responsibility for "slashing" someone.

Although I think there is a fairly good chance Shrinehme is a SK, I am actually seriously considering not lynching him today – precisely because I doubt he is a member of the Mafia or the Hate Club.

I agree with BM, I think this is a poor move. If you believe someone is likely to be an SK, especially in a game where there has been no real town lynch when were already on D3,

especially

when the person that claimed was, for all intents and purposes, the lynch choice yesterday, and

especially

when both the "Hate club" and mafia are already down a member, then you really should press your luck.

This town may have had the ability to play the crossfire game, but after all the power we've already lost, it's very difficult to justify counting on scum factions to take themselves out.

---

The mod did not have to tell me what Ace had chosen; I know from the fact that the only kills I have are "self-flavored" kills: kills in which I choose my own flavor for.

Unlike BM and Zaz, this really does bother me more than the role PM thing. Javert brought up an instance of this, which I commend him for, but why would there be D1 and D2 flavors that are the same? I mean, why is it that I am seeing "beaten to death" twice? Wouldn't scum be less inclined to drop hints as to which kills belong to which factions?

---

Lowell if you're not going to be on and posting substance until Sunday get out now. Does this game honestly look like it needs a player who won't be contributing to the town for six effing days?

I appreciate your passion, but I have to disagree. zora, King, WC, and Kise are, I would contend, less reliable than Lowell has been during D3.

---

Phbt

?

---

However, Shrinehme will be forced to shoot a target the town generally considers to be anti-town (I highly suggest against directing him, however): if he is Town then this in his best interest, and if he is a SK it is still in his best interest because the moment he starts killing against the town’s wishes he will be lynched. His only hope in winning as a SK from this moment forward is to play as though he were a Town Vigilante.

I think there is a lot of assuming going on in this paragraph. Assuming about the strength of any and all other anti-town factions, assuming Shrine is either a Vigilante or an SK, assuming that, should Shrine be an SK, he may not have any other powers (e.g. bulletproof vest, some sort of investigation ability), etc.

---

I'm leaning towards either SK or mafia. Why do you doubt he isn't mafia?

Although I suspect Shrine to be an SK more than anything else, I do not count out the possibility that he is aligned with another faction instead. I would like Javert to answer this.

---

If someone wants to come forward and prove me wrong, now is the time. If not, we string him up.

Pass me the noose, because I'm ready to

vote: Shrinehme

.

[RedCoyote]

What is the case on Zero exactly?

Middle of post 1151 and the fact that he decided not to lynch yesterday. He had the hammer in his hand, and he effectively voted no lynch. He has not given a reason why other than he thinks Ace(Shrine) is town. Me, Zaz, and others have asked him repeatedly to give us more of his own opinions, but he refuses to.

Generally, "Coaching" does not occur between 2 scum, or 2 townies, respectively, because townies dont trust each other's affiliation, and scum dont need or WANT to be seen interacting in an open friendly way. It's effectively buddying up, but in a way that suggests knowledge of alignment.

I've actually heard the opposite, that "coaching" tends to refer one scum nudging his buddy with criticism meant to be advice rather than criticism meant to be hunting. Your take makes just as much sense though.

Regardless, I haven't been particularly fond of King's play, and I'm wondering if you can point to a bigger pattern of coaching/strange interaction between Kmd/hewitt and other players? In other words, I tend to agree with hewitt's point of view insomuch as King has just been active lurking throughout the game. Is your argument then that you think this is just King's playstyle?

---

Thanks for replacing, Fonz.

White Castle's constant lurker updates seem like 'trying to look helpful.'

I got this same impression at the time. It would be nice to hear from WC or Kise, we haven't heard from them since Shrine claimed.

---

I'm not going to reveal anything about my Role PM. No need.

Is this a subtle way of saying that you contend Shrine is telling the truth?

---

I don't think Kise is mafia, though he could be Hateclub.

OP not likely hate club.

I don't understand. Are these just hunches as you progress through the game?

I'm now going to assume Zer0ph claimed power, because this is a good wagon on a scummy target.

No, he claimed 'nilla townie. The wagon was largely dismantled by proponents of lynching Ace or cater. hewitt, Amish, zora, and Kise seemed like the biggest detractors at the time.

[RedCoyote]

Lowell, King, WC, zora, Javert, Amish, and Kmd sit in the spotlight.

Kmd: My vote isn't moving, nuts to everyone else.
Lowell: Sorry, I just do not have access to the Internet.
WC: ...
Javert: Ladies and gentlemen, we need prods. King, explain yourself. If all else fails, I will hammer before the deadline.
zora: ...
King: hewitt! I am not scummy; I just don't have anything to say.
Amish: ...

Will there be a hammer? Who will blink? Will the Shrine wagon lose momentum?

[RedCoyote]

I did not effectively no lynch. I would have put Vote: No Lynch in bold if I wanted to, but I chose not to vote. There's a difference.

No,

actually

voting not to lynch wouldn't be an "effective" no lynch, it would've literally been a no lynch. Your refusal to hammer Ace means that you chose that the town should no lynch rather than lynch Ace, ergo your refusal to hammer was effectively (as in, responsible for, the catalyst of) a no lynch.

[RedCoyote]

I'm still not caught up since I've come back, but yeah, I've always been down for a Zer0 lynch. But I'm pretty sure everyone doesn't want to quicklynch, so... bbl.

:/

[RedCoyote]

checking in with phone will give better post later

[RedCoyote]

RC - I'm doing my best. I read at a speed of 2 pages per hour, so I'm thinking tomorrow or the day after is when I'll be caught up.

My problem with your post 1933, and maybe I'm just reading too much into it, is that it's like you're bringing the idea up half-heartedly. It's like you are testing the waters.

"I'm sure no one wants to lynch Zer0 ... right??"

I've always been a proponent of that, you know ryan has been pretty strong on that wagon as well. I know King and OP were voting Zer0 with the intent to lynch once or twice this game. Why you feel the need to conceal your interest in getting a Zer0 wagon going is beyond me.

---

Shrine isn't existing scumeteam. He is an SK. Thus, all links between him and other players are null n void.

This. hewitt, how did you miss this? Could you explain who/what you were thinking about when you made post 1943?

Because, frankly, I think what you said was a borderline scumslip.

[RedCoyote]

As far as my reaction to the cater/Kmd deaths goes, like hewitt said, I didn't expect cater to bite the bullet. I didn't necessarily think he was scum, but I certainly didn't think he would be shot by scum.

I'm still completely stumped on the "Beaten to Death" kill. Is there another SK? We know this can't be the Hate-Club because Stevie died by this, and, given how the "Shot" kill has been in every night, I'm pretty sure this belongs to a/the mafia group. I would like everyone to give their thoughts about that if nothing else.

Right now I think we have one mafia group, another SK, and a Hate-Club Cult. We've batted around the idea of a cult before, but I think this fits. This would explain the name Stevie had, and this would also explain the change in the amount of kills.

The "Beaten to Death" killer killed Kmd, Stevie, and K7. His killing of K7 is null imo, but his killing of Stevie suggests he isn't a Hate-Club, and his killing of Kmd suggests that he may be looking to kill power roles. I might be thinking too far ahead here, but I had the impression that Kmd was a power role based on his stubbornness yesterday. The point I'm getting at is, I think "Beaten to Death" is looking to kill other killing roles... which makes me think he's another third party.

The last thing I wanted to point out, despite what Javert may think, I think we need to deal with the Mason issue today. We have two Mason claims, and both of them are still alive after two consecutive nights. I'll come out and say that I think one of them is scum. Not taking into account anything else (Kise/hewitt's scummy opening posts, the Zer0 dilemma), I think lynching one of the Masons should be a route to consider. Any thoughts on these things?

[RedCoyote]

Or did I make that unclear...see above RedCoyote. Just for clarification I'll repost this so that you don't have to read it four times like Kise.

I think you made it unclear. The way you phrased that post it sounds like you are equating Shrine with a known, existing scumteam. It just sounded peculiuar, and as OP inferred, it sounded prematurely defensive of Zer0.

[RedCoyote]

Shrine coming up SK, eliminates my suspicion of Zer0, as that was purely based on the idea that he NL'd to save his buddy. I dont see why, as scum, he would NL in order to save somebody not affiliated with him, in a game with multiple scumgroups, and not go to great lengths to MILK IT the next day. So, Zer0 is probably town.

Why is your suspicion completely eliminated of Zer0? Regardless of whether or not he was connected to Shrine, he still caused a NL. Why do you reckon he did that?

I think the Beaten to Death kill is probably Mafia, and the 'Shot' Kill is either a Vig, or more likely Hate Club. Regarding Zazie and I, I assume this is why we have not been killed.

Hm, I didn't consider that. This is just as likely to be the case.

Could you explain the last part of your statement? You assume

what

is why y'all haven't been killed?

---

BM, not sure I see your view on RedCoyote, he's brought up some good points from what I can see.

Hey, this guy is alright!

Unfortunately I was none too happy with the player you replaced, PA. Skim over the thread, check out the most recent posts by Fonz and Lowell (they both replaced in during D3), and tell us who the scum is.

---

Sounds like fishing, and I don't want to put my reel in this pond.

[...]

I'm not going to beckon them out, but shouldn't we have a cop?

Hold on a second. Can you really say both of these things with a straight face?

Moreover, do you think it's unproductive for everyone to give their opinion on the night kills? Why or why not?

Can anyone remember who it was on D1 that was talking about Mastin being recruited?

Is this a rhetorical question or are you honestly asking?

---

Yeah, this little Cult thing was pushed aside and never really talked about after this, because we were too busy trying to lynch me or Mastin. Phoebus never explained this at all.

Was Phoebus making a casual joke or an inside one? That's the 64,000 dollar question. This seems awfully risky, but I can easily read zora's quote in a different context (e.g. stfu).

So a Hate Club filled with Stevie/Zazi/BM/Zoraster? This is a WILD guess though and I am going off of little.

Not only that, but that fact that two of the "Mason" claims have been alive for two consecutive days with a dead Doctor and at least 3 different killing roles/teams (one of which may be them). I just don't understand why it is that seemingly arbitrary 'nilla townies are being killed when Zaz and BM are still alive.

---

Am I the only one that notices RC is trying to rolefish on the sly? Every time a new day begins, you want to speculate on how the night kills look and keep questioning people who we think did this and that.. Let's get back to scumhunting the good old fashion way.

My scumhunting takes into account how town and scum players react to the night kills. Do you think this is valid?

---

Well considering [Kise is] wrong on 2/3 perhaps we shouldn't be listening to [his] judgment.

What do you mean by "wrong on 2/3"?

---

This should've been done quite some time ago, but people don't like to listen to Zer0ph34r.

Why didn't you vote me in post 1946?

[RedCoyote]

Yes. This is a Fairy Godfather argument.

Then the mafia, Hate-Club, and any and all other killing roles are making a concerted effort to keep all three Masons alive, Fonz?

They're masons. Don't be dumb. The point of masons is to be confirmed.

Do you think it's likely that there is a Mason Traitor in any form or fashion?

Hands up who thinks this looks like an informed minority comment?

*Hand up*

It's one thing for hewitt to say Zer0 looks town to him, it's another thing for him to say Kise is as wrong about Zer0 being scum as he was about Emp being scum.

---

'Shot' belongs to the mafia group.
And the 'Beating to death' is very likely a SK or vig. Not sure yet which.

Do you think the Hate-Club has killing powers, Zaz?

So talking about that, why is it scummy according to you?
Also, as have been stated, there are three masons. Why aren't you thinking about the unclaimed one?

You can throw him/her in as well.

Why are you not being killed when seemingly random townies are? Why would the mafia, Hate-Club, and any and all other killing roles/parties, all separate factions, all decide not to kill you?

During N1, a specific player wanted to replace Dust. Mason #3 said in the QT that this would be unfair as this player is an alt. Phoebus said that he was playing with this player in a different game and that this account posts differently than his main account. After this player was refused to replace into the game, Azhrei suggested that the mod should ask Jeromus instead, as Azh and jeromus are friends in RL. Which is how Jeromus got into this game.

And? I mean, okay, sure, but this still amounts to us taking your word for it. If I don't buy your Mason claim, why would I buy your story about a conversation that supposedly happened in your QT? I have no way of verifying this.

ORLY?
More interesting is the player list as your name is in it.

Good find.

---

Yes I can, because I'm not fishing for a cop to come forward. I said beforehand that I am not beckoning them to claim.

Neither am I. I'm asking players to explain who they think "Beaten to Death" belongs to and why. This is important because tomorrow, if someone happens to die from it, they will have had a sincere point of view. Why are you so hesitant to give your opinion on it?

Not you though, because Az' was fairly "kind" compared to Phoebus. You might want to do some internal research and check your QT thread. Find out if one of your partners are trying to sway from lynching "certain" players, if you catch my drift.

I feel about as comfortable with Zaz as I do with BM. They both were able to really get this town focused and got a successful, logical lynch through. That being said, the lynch was on an SK, meaning he had no real connections to the mafia/Hate-Club faction. I have hunches as to who the third Mason may be, but nothing I would bet on.

---

Honestly do any of you ever read?

BM got on my case last time a misread you; I'm not making the mistake again. I asked you because I couldn't believe you were as sure that Zer0 was town as you are that Emp is. I just do not see it, at all. I think you are relying far too much on your instinct, and I don't think you are questioning yourself enough.

I don't know if this makes you scum though.

---

The Fonz, remember Open 81 when we, as scum, kept the masons alive until the very end, pretty much, even though they outed themselves PAGE 1 of the game?

I'm looking it over, and it looks like a Mason was killed on the third night. Given that it's an open game, the circumstances are slightly different. I don't know, there's no cult, there's only one mafia faction... it's not as questionable of a game as this is. OP, what do you think the Hate-Club is?

---

vote: zoraster

I think he has a relationship to one or more players who may or may not have posted today.

[RedCoyote]

I am assuming Hate Club have killing powers though, and cults usually don't.

Then they are the group with the "Shot" kill?

You want to get rid of one of the masons, yet you aren't asking who the third is.

Where did I say I wanted to "get rid of one of the Masons"? It is a possible solution we should consider, and I am glad to talk about it.

You're acting as though you'll tell me who this third Mason is if I ask you, is that what you've been insinuating? You keep hounding me for not being concerned about a third Mason, but if I started asking people about it, you would hit me up for rolefishing there too, wouldn't you?

I've asked you why you think Hewitt's opening post of this day is scummy. Can you answer?

I said "opening posts". That clarification is only important because I think hewitt is prematurely defensive of Zer0 (e.g. post 1943).

His actual opening post seems fine to me.

One of Phoebus or Azhrei is the cult leader. Culted the other during N1 (Explain how they could have had night talk when actions resolve at the end of the night) and the next day claim masons, just to paint a large target on their back. With four shown kills during the first night, how is this not pure suicide?

Talking about this (why the masons haven't been killed yet), what do you think is the reason you aren't killed yet? Aren't you the so-called lynch target of Mastin of whom many think that Mastin's lynch target is town?

a) Night talk isn't necessary, why even bring it up?
b) The first question you asked, "how is that not pure suicide", is the very point I am trying to make. Why wasn't it suicide? I don't understand. It doesn't make logical sense to me that there hasn't been a Mason death yet. When something doesn't make logical sense, it is best to act on that.
c) Actually, I would say I was in the very slim minority of people who think that Mastin's target was me. I think most everyone else was on record saying that it was likely a trick. Me and zu had a discussion about this at length.

I also don't understand your vote against Zoraster. Can you elaborate on it?

I think he's either a Mason or a Cult. I think his play changed significantly enough from D1 -> D2 that it's worth it to lynch. I'm having trouble focusing today (evidenced by the exchanges between me and hewitt) and feel as though I should fall back on a scumtell that has worked for me before.

This vote is by no means locked in or anything, but I want my position to be verified by my vote.

---

If there

is

a Cult, 90% chance The Fonz is in it, and probably with at least one Mason.

I'm curious if Fonz has a response to this? I have a question though. Javert, are you saying you think there is a Mason Traitor sided with the Cult?

---

Can you explain the neccessity of you knowing whether the rest of us think Beaten To Death is town or not? Are you trying to see if any of us know an intimate detail?

This is the same argument I had with zu. When everyone discusses the night kills, infomation is gained later in the game. Like, I need to read Stevie some more, but don't you think it would be good to know what his opinion was on who was shot/Beaten to Death and why?

If [RC] flips scum, ryan is his partner. An iso scan on the both of you further suggests that to be true.

I called out Phoebus and Caboose for lining up lynches, I have no problems calling you out for the same.

---

Why just Fonz and Lowell?

Because they are in the same basic position he is in, faced with replacing into a game that has some 80+ pages to read.

I asked Jebus if there was any reason to doubt your alignment, and he said there wasn't...

I asked Jebus if there was any reason for the town to doubt me as town, and he said there wasn't...

---

So far all the weak players we've lynched have flipped town so I think it's a bad idea to go after a player like ZeroPhear or King right now simply because they suck.

What weak players have we lynched that flipped t...

You know what, no, I'm not going though it again. I'm not asking you to clarify one of your defensive, awkwardly worded, too bold, and too aggressive statements again.

Unvote; vote: hewitt

We've lynched no town players, nor have we lynched particularly weak players in my estimation. I think you are out on a limb for Zer0 for no reason, and then you throw King in there, I'm assuming because Kise pressured him some. You've been backing up Zer0 since D2 for sure, possibly since D1. It's a wonder you aren't voting Javert (formerly Caboose) right now, because that would just about be the cherry on top.

(And before anyone asks, I am making the vote with the knowledge that hewitt claimed he thought an SK was the same as a Vigilante.)

I don't consider [SK] to be scum

A serial killer is anti-town, as their win condition and the town's win condition are in direct conflict with each other. What are you trying to say?

No I meant to say that I view scumteams to be the town's greatest threat and I think above all the scumteams need to be lynched otherwise we cannot win.

If this isn't backpedaling then I don't know what is.

"SK isn't scum"
"SK is anti-town, what do you mean?"
"No, I mean mafia are

more

scummy"

---

A cult is not a 'standard' role by any means, and it does not revolve around the usual mechanics listed above. I don't really know what Stoofer was thinking when he let that one through, but it is my impression, given the going-over he gave my game before declaring it normal, that EmpTyger would not pass a cult. Though this may be the first ever case of OGLM.

I think I am starting to catch your argument. Rarely do I see cults when I click on random old games (which I sometimes do at work (I don't read them all mind you, just sometimes browse)), and I don't think I recall seeing them in a large normal before while doing this.

What does OGLM mean?

---

As stated before, I think that if RC is cult, the third mason is so too.

Hm, so what you're actually suggesting is a Mason Traitor who is sided with the Cult instead of the mafia?

Not buying it. First of all, you have played with a SK before:
Open 104
Sure, you didn't mention the role, but you did play with one. Small detail though.

Hah, and would you look at that... the SK was none other than Zaz in that game.

[RedCoyote]

But ryan & Red have the more public relationship due to ryan playing sidekick at times.

I don't have much opinion on ryan, but I would guess he was a Goon trying to lay low. I don't have much to back this up, so it's nothing I am going to push particularly hard. I don't think ryan has been a major factor in this game, and the only two things I could tell you about him is that he supports a Zer0 lynch and that during the beginning of the game he had no problem with policy lynches on lurkers (because of it being a large game). I also remember at one point it seemed like he was trying to play both sides of the Mastin argument back in D1, which gave me a little caution.

I think you could just as soon pair ryan up with anyone else in the game (sans Zer0) because of his flying under the radar, and I don't see any particular attraction to me. If you are willing to show something specific, I may give this point a little more creditability. Until then, I am dismissing it.

Mmm.. no, I don't care about Stevie's opinion. He's scum. He'll lie to cover his tracks.

There is no value in analyzing his opinion?

A better way to counter me would have been to say, "I don't know what ryan is and when I flip town, that shouldn't alter the opinions of what ryan's alignment is." But noooo, RC has to counter by saying I'm lining up lynches... Of course I am. If you flip scum, ryan is scum too.

That is the precise implication of my statement, and it's why lining up lynches is anti-town. No town player can tie a certain link between two players, showing complete disregard for any new information they may or may not receive.

what information have you gained from dead players (specifically Stevie) regarding the night kills? Any at the moment?

We have a lot of deaths, however, so I'm not really sure whether we have 2 mafias or 1. We definitely have an SK.

This leads me to believe the Hate-Club is another mafia faction. He kind of brings it up uncertainly, almost as though he wants to look prophetic. In retrospect, it's reads like he's fully aware that the Hate-Club killed someone.

zerophear, to me, just reads like someone who is really, really, really bad at mafia. Maybe not scum.

This, although a bit unrelated, also caught my attention.

what did you expect to hear from the rest of us?

It would necessarily lend creditability to a Cop claim in the future.

Who knows, really? And who do you expect to be dumb enough and step forward, saying, "I think there's another SK. Me.?" (not a rhetorical question; please answer)

I think we're far enough along in the game to talk about connections between players, dead and living. I think the town should share information/opinions about who is who. I think the discussion between Fonz/Zaz about having a Cult or another mafia faction is extremely valuable, and had we not been discussing what these night kills mean for the town, Fonz and Zaz would be looking at this game

completely

differently.

---

In one of your responses to Kise, you state that you are as comfortable with my lynch as a lynch of BM. You still haven't explained why not the third mason.

I'm becoming less and less comfortable with it as the day progresses. It's funny though, I'm not really picky about lynching today. I think there are multiple players who are perfectly acceptable lynches (e.g. zora, hewitt, King, Zer0, and possibly more).

It seems you don't buy the mason claim. So how come you believe it when it gets stated that there is a third member?

OP pointed out a couple of potential connections of zora to y'all, but, no, I guess it cannot be accepted that there is one.

How is this scummy?

Because Zer0 is scummy.

What do you mean with this?

You brought up the fact that there couldn't have been night talk between Phoebus and Azhrei. It doesn't matter if there could've been or not, Azhrei did the work.

There can be many reasons. To name a few: To set the claimed masons up, other players are more dangerous, for confusion, powerrole hunting, etc.

Is someone setting you up? I don't accept the other reasons, unless you can explain how cater is more dangerous than you. I consider Masons to be power roles.

You want to deal with the masons today. Yet, you choose to vote for a player who you think is Mason, instead of a player who has claimed mason?
Also, why do you think he's either Mason or Cult?
And about what scumtell are you talking?

I stated that dealing with the Masons today is something we should consider. I don't make absolute statements as carelessly as you would imply.

I think he's Mason or Cult because his play changed significantly enough from D1 -> D2. That sort of significant change in playstyle (he was still playing in D2, as opposed to now) is a scumtell.

Hello? Masons can be recruited into a Cult?

So, then, theoretically all of the Masons could become members of the Cult?

Your point?

It's amusingly coincidental that you were the SK in that game, not just some random person.

[RedCoyote]

You have once again dodged why you didn't state that you'd have been comfortable with the third mason his lynch. Each time, it was either me or BM. Now explain.

Why do you automatically assume I had a problem with voting said "third Mason" (which you've implied may or may not even exist)? No, if there is a third Mason, he deserves just as much scrutiny as you and BM. I've never tried to dodge this, it's just not very important. I've consistently said, both today and yesterday, that we should look at the

Masons

and consider their confirmation status. I can point you to these quotes if you'd like. I've never excused any Mason from this, and I don't know how much more clear I can make the point.

You also dodged to explain why you did believe that there is a third mason.

How would I know? You're using circular arguments up and down here.

Zaz: Why don't you want to pressure the third mason?
RC: Well, they can be pressured too.
Zaz: OH so why do you think there is a third mason?
RC: Well, I'm not making that assumption...
Zaz: Why do you want to lynch one of us though?
RC: I never said that a lynch is necessary.
Zaz: Wait. So you do believe there is a third mason???
RC: ...

Point to me where I said you and BM should be lynched, but not the third Mason, which I know for a fact exists. I never said these things.

Then explain how each Mason can tell you which player wanted to replace into this game for Dust and for which reason he couldn't and how the mod found out why he couldn't.

You're the only one who has brought it up, and what's to stop these other Masons from just saying, "ya zaz is rite"?

Leaving Zwet. Explain that kill.

D1 kills are different. No Masons had claimed at that point.

What would be a better kill?: A possible powerrole/anti-town role (Kevin) or a claimed unconfirmed Mason?

That's a good point, but it only accounts for the shot kills. Do you think all the other kills are town-sided power roles?

Also, what about the last example?

Confusion doesn't work because it's easy to verify whether the Masons are confirmed or not.

That implies that you want to deal with them today.

Yeah, a lynch may be in order, or an investigation. It was a possibility, but I think hewitt is a better lynch at this point. That's why I wasn't absolute; that's why I used the word "might".

So elaborate how Zoraster can be cult for this reason.

Because we're on D4.

Yes, they could. Can you explain why you asked this question?

Because I've never played with them before.

You would know though, right? Surely a Cult member couldn't participate in a Mason meeting.

---

If the hate club killed somebody, then they either didn't N1 (since I believe all have been claimed except for the BTD), or they killed one of their own faction (which doesn't make sense). In the former case, their kill has been protected against last night while also having it been protected against N1, and in the latter case it's just illogical to waste your own faction knowingly. Unless they hate so much that even they have to kill one of their own like every other night or something stupid... (no, I don't actually believe this.)

I agree 100% that BTD isn't the Hate Club. But do you think, as Fonz/BM have said, it's the other way around? Hate Club is shooting and Tar's mafia is BTD?

---

Okie dokie.....?

Okie dokie then that argument (that you can't learn anything from scum giving info about night actions) is shot down.

So basically, you're trying to draw the cop out

No, I wasn't trying to draw the Cop out at all.

So you want everyone to speculate on who they think is cop, vig, and SK?

No, connections between Stevie/Tar and others. Why would you not want people to speculate who they think is an SK?

---

I think I said this before, but the latest attacks on Hewitt are really showing a lack of truth-hunting / attention.

The posts you are referring to are not the latest attacks on hewitt.

I am really taking issue with RedCoyote’s continued insistence that killing groups are making a “concerted” effort to keep the claimed Masons alive.

There is no other reasonable explanation why they manage to dodge fire from all directions, but you are welcome to prove me wrong. Even if, as has been argued, one group is delibrately leaving the Masons alive, why is the other doing the same thing?

it looked, and still looks, like a hint to his opposing scum group/s to kill the Masons without formally directing them to.

I take it the Masons are confirmed to you then?

I mean, you can label it what you want, I don't know a "pro-town" way to say it. I'm not convinced the Masons are Masons. Period. I

want

to be proved wrong, believe me, but I can't just accept it after we've lost basically half of the population of the town and no Masons are in the graveyard.

My assertion is this: (i) if there is a cult, I think the Fonz is in it; and (ii) if the Fonz is in a cult, then I think the cult has also recruited a member of the Masonry. “Traitor” is a term of art in mafia that has a fixed meaning that I am not implying here.

[...]

RedCoyote asking what The Fonz thinks of my “90% cult” opinion is looking like an attempt to set up an argument between two players that does not involve himself.

But a player cannot be in the Cult and be a Mason, correct? Like, they couldn't participate in both night meetings, right?

I only brought Fonz into this quote at all because I've never heard of a role that can be both Cult and Mason at the same time. I don't understand how that player can win the game, because the win conditions would necessarily contradict one another.

---

Is there any particularly reason that it isn't beaten=HC, shot = mafia?

Stevie was beaten to death as a Hate Club member.

[RedCoyote]

For why the mason's aren't dead yet: perhaps the scum think they're lynchable while if BTD is a pro-town role they think that the masons *are* confirmed and pro-town? That's simple enough and reasonable, so still follows the whole simplest explanation is most likely true theory... So far I haven't seen any mafia be all that complex about their kills in any of my games so far.

Maybe you're right. I guess it's just hard for me to look at it that way, because it seems like it would come back to bite them, leaving 2 (3?) people out there who everyone can look to.

I've been thinking it's likely more reasonable there are three Masons given the way Azhrei claimed. At the time, I didn't understand why he claimed, why he claimed his partner, why his partner was so reluctant to talk about it, or why he replaced out soon afterwards.

If there is a third Mason, it makes Azhrei's move a little more justified, because we know there was an ace-in-the-hole if things got rough.

---

Not you though, because Az' was fairly "kind" compared to Phoebus. You might want to do some internal research and check your QT thread. Find out if one of your partners are trying to sway from lynching "certain" players, if you catch my drift.

I feel about as comfortable with Zaz as I do with BM. They both were able to really get this town focused and got a successful, logical lynch through. That being said, the lynch was on an SK, meaning he had no real connections to the mafia/Hate-Club faction. I have hunches as to who the third Mason may be, but nothing I would bet on.

I hope you understand that when I said this it should be read in the context that "I feel as comfortable with Zaz

as town

as I do BM". That's why I followed the sentence up with how y'all were both "really town focused" and "got a successful, logical lynch through".

So far, I've seen no reason to think that those kills might be from an anti-town player/team. Have you?

Well, I am skeptical of the "dissolved" kill, but that just may be because I hadn't been particularly suspicious of Zu when he was killed.

RC's first argument: Azh and Phoebus are cult. One recruited the other and they claimed masons for some reason I forgot you gave, RC. Due to the way Phoebus acted towards Azh during D1, you believe it's more likely for me and BM to be cult than masons.

You'll have to show me where I called you both Cult, although I will admit to warming to the theories that OP had suggested earlier today. I don't think you two are both "more likely" to be Cult rather than Masons.

You've brought both arguments up. Explain which you think is more likely and why.
And regarding Zoraster, why did you vote a possible Mason/Cult

member

I think it's likely that the Masons were all Masons at one point, I don't know if that's still the case based on what you've told me and Javert has confirmed.

Because I am more sure that zora isn't town than I am most other players.

Another question, you still haven't asked why you haven't asked who the third Mason is, even after I've said that I wouldn't have called you out on fishing (Which is scummy as it gives the impression you want to look town). Why is that?

Because, as I've implied, I don't think you'd answer, and I don't know if I'd want you to.

---

However, if there are separate killing scum groups, which I think is probable, then I highly doubt that the two killing groups of a way to “coordinate” their kills in order to make a “concerted effort” in keeping them alive.

I doubt it as well, that was the point of my argument. It seems as though if the Masons are all still Masons, than any and all scum groups have made an effort to keep them that way.

Explain to me in detail your experiences with Cults, because you are being particularly naive. Of course a Mason can be recruited into a Cult and participate in both discussions, unless the Cult has some sort of restriction on who they can recruit. The Cult win condition becomes substituted, so that a Town player is no longer Town but only Cult.

Well, none, as I've said. All of my completed games are on my wiki page. The experience I have with Cults outside of MS (epicmafia) is that they are able to recruit Masons, but the Mason may then no longer participate in the Mason meeting at night.

The Mason(s) would know then that something happened to his partner, but he is faced with a dilemma. Will he have better chances of winning if he tells the town what happened during his night meeting, or will he have better chances of winning if he keeps quiet and pretends as though he had a normal meeting (with the hopes that he would be the next recruit perhaps)?

Do you think there is a Mason that is both a Mason and a member of a killing group? Or do you think the entire claimed Masonry might be scum together?

If it's possible, I think the former.

---

Mod, replace me

Zer0, you know the deadline is just a few days away. For the sake of the game, won't you at least play through the day?

---

Amished that was an epic fail on your part. You did not quote once where I said that ZeroPhear was town and that was your initial attack on me. You've completely lost your base of attack here and I love how you're switching it to "oh no you're defending ZeroPhear". I haven't made any excuses for ZeroPhear, he plays his own game and I play mine. But I am against a ZeroPhear lynch right now. I'm also against a King, Battle Mage, and Zazier lynch and that's pretty much it.

Two things wrong with this reasoning. Number one, ZeroPhear is not a known partner to me. And number two, I have two votes on me. It would take a little bit more for someone to be freaking out about me being strung up.

I don't really have much on Person A except for that I think both of his predecessor's played scummy.

I love how you're making these posts about your vote as though you are seriously deliberating it. You haven't voted at all today, and I don't expect you to deviate from that until you feel as though it's "safe" for you to make your move.

[RedCoyote]

/confirming replacement

Hey qwints, nice to see you again!

I don't think you are replacing a particularly townie player unfortunately, but I welcome anything you have to add to the mix. Lowell and The Fonz both did small summaries of the game a few pages back in D3 if that helps you. I would look more toward the end of D1 as a starting point, because, as has been said, Mastin was a neutral role and you likely won't get as much important information from D1 as you would D2 and D3.

---

None of my posts insinuate that I'm seriously deliberating about my vote because I'm not, so that doesn't even make sense RedCoyote. Especially from the quotes of mine that you pointed out.

You saying that you are against a Zer0, King, BM, and Zaz lynch, and that you "don't really have much" on Person A isn't talking about your vote? I think you are just being argumentative, talking about who you don't want to vote is, in no uncertain terms, delibrating your vote.

The fact of the matter is, you keep making noise about your vote in an attempt to look impartial. You tell us you don't want to lynch Zer0, and then you snap at anyone who questions you for having that position (you did this during D2 as well), but who do you think is scum and why haven't you voted? Let's see...

If I had to pick three players off the bat who I would think are most likely to be scum I would say Javert, King, and White Castle. That’s without going back and looking at the events played out so most likely once I get my head straight I’ll have a better analysis.

So far all the weak players we've lynched have flipped town so I think it's a bad idea to go after a player like ZeroPhear or King right now simply because they suck.

(If everyone recalls, this is the statement that caused me to vote hewitt in the first place. I see nothing

but

wrong with it.)

If you're asking me who I think are the most vocal and have a chance at being scum because they kind of act like they're running the town I would have to say Zazier, Battle Mage, or RedCoyote.

But I am against a ZeroPhear lynch right now. I'm also against a King, Battle Mage, and Zazier lynch and that's pretty much it.

No wonder you haven't voted anyone today. Amish isn't twisting your words around, you are. You can't keep your suspicions straight, you try to preface your changes by saying that it was "off the bat", but it's not odd to you that you say King is in your top three scum, and then your top three town even though he

never

made a post during your switch? You say Zaz, BM, and me are in your top three scum, then you say that Zaz and BM are bad lynches. Are you trying to play both sides of the Mason argument?

I do not "think" that ZeroPhear is town. I think it is much more likely that he's town at this point than scum but he's not cleared in my book.

What does this even mean though? Are you seriously going to sit there for days debating the difference between "thinking something is true" and "thinking something is

likely

true"? The verb already implies doubt, there's no reason to modify it any more in this instance.

[RedCoyote]

The thing I have more a problem with is that you want a cop to investigate or get a lynch on one of me and BM, just to deal with the mason issue. As it seems that you think we are town, I'm not liking this at all.

I don't expect you to exactly be excited about the idea of having to confirm your status, but you have to understand I am coming from a different perspective than you are.

You tried to make the claimed masons look bad, using a not known killing role/team. Yet, that one isn't the one who makes you feel skeptical.

I don't understand, that goes without saying.

If you don't think we're masons, you either think we are cult or mafia. So you called us cult indirectly.

So you all have to be Cult/Mafia or you all have to be Masons?

However, if there's a cult and you're going after a cult member, it's very likely we only get one day extra as the cult leader could recruit again next night.

This is a political disagreement. I prefer lynching the person I am more comfortable with as scum and hoping that the night actions turn in my favor than I do lynching a seemingly random player and hoping zora gets shot.

Where did he say this?

If you're asking me who I think are the most vocal and have a chance at being scum because they kind of act like they're running the town I would have to say Zazier, Battle Mage, or RedCoyote.

---

Welcome to joe and stark, thank you for replacing guys. I would focus on the last couple of pages of D1, browse through D2, browse a little closer through D3, and then try to really read D4. We had two replacements during D3 who both did small summaries of the game until that point.

---

Why should I keep my vote where it is?

You shouldn't. I would unvote and try to give the thread a once over as best I could, paying particular attention to posts by Zer0, me, and hewitt (since it looks as through the lynch is kind of breaking down that way).

---

Mod

, I believe Lowell voted hewitt in post 2137.

Thanks for catching that, fixed.

[RedCoyote]

Do you honestly think that attacking and questioning the Masons is the right route to go down today?

Are these two things synonymous, hewitt?

---

You are only now interested. Your first response was asking in general if it should be addressed and if anybody cares about it at all. Only now, you''re trying to get the cop to investigate one of the masons.

That was the obvious implication, both yesterday and today.

Which is kinda strange as you have admitted you get a town feeling from me and BM, while before, you thought Phoebus was lyning up lynches. Change of behaviour which needs to be explained.

Phoebus was lining up lynches before BM claimed Mason.

What goes without saying?

That I am suspicious of the BtD killer as a scumteam.

What happened to your Zer0''s suspicions?

They're still there, but Zer0 will not be lynched. BM, Fonz, Amish, Kise... all of these players have gone on record at some point or another saying they do not see Zer0 as scum.

---

I don't understand the RC questioning the mason's thing more than the questions. The two outed ones both said that the mod confirmed them to each other, and that there were 3 of them N1. I don't believe in a multi-recruiting cult in any game (insanely imba/swingy if it's a one way/all way lovers pairing because of it) and I wouldn't guess that any mod would put that in a game. RC moves up in my suspicion list because of trying to cast doubt on something that really does appear to be absolutely confirmed.

If there is a Cult, no Masons are part of it then, Amish?

---

Joe is town, BTW. Anyone disagree?

I do.

[RedCoyote]

Post 2063 & post 2131. I don't think hewitt has answered well for these criticisms. I don't particularly see what makes me the best lynch for today. It may be argued that hewitt isn't either, but I haven't heard that argument. hewitt has done nothing but cover himself all day, as far as I can tell. He has sculpted his point of view to fit whatever the occasion is (e.g. King is part of three most likely scum, then later he is against a King lynch). He's came out against the Masons, saying BM or Zaz would be in the top three of scum predictions, then he comes out later and say it is a bad idea to lynch a claimed Mason today. He's held his vote the entire day, why? Does anyone know? I've asked him, but I don't think he answered.

I would hope that our newer replacements take a serious look at hewitt's posts. The case against me is largely based on the fact that I do not consider the Masons confirmed. I'll accept that criticism, and my only response to it is that's just how I've been taught to play mafia. My position has evolved to the point where now I consider them more likely to be Masons than not, but that's about all I can give up on that angle. Certainly not with a potential Cult running around, no, I am not going to take a claim at face value as a confirmed town role.

[RedCoyote]

I did not say that Battle Mage or Zazier are most likely to be scum I stated that more vocal players SUCH AS Battle Mage and Zazier are most likely to be scum.

Okay, so players such as BM and Zaz are more likely to be scum, but BM and Zaz aren't scum? Why even make a statement like that to begin with? "Player A acts just like a scum would, but Player A isn't scum." This only serves to be confusing for everyone. Why not, instead, just tell us who you

think

is scum, not who you think

acts

like scum. Otherwise people may accuse you of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

And I've been consistent on my disagreement with the attacks on the Masons this whole time.

Except that, according to you, the Masons are playing like scum.

I did answer why I haven't voted yet and it's because I haven't decided who I think is a good lynch yet.

Even if this was true (which I am convinced that it is not), do you think that it's optimal town play to not vote until you are ready to lynch that person?

I know that you're nervous about being lynched and that since I'm the next top wagon you're going to attack me

Actually, if you wanted to be honest, I was the second person who voted you. I would've been the first had I logged in before Amish did. I'm just as keen on lynching King, joe, or zora, but I saw a statement you made that particularly stood out to me:

So far all the weak players we've lynched have flipped town so I think it's a bad idea to go after a player like ZeroPhear or King right now simply because they suck.

A comment so inaccurate, awkwardly buried into a bigger post, defensive of Zer0, and out-of-the-blue defensive of King, a player who had made no posts between this post and your post 1932 where you stated that King was in your top three most likely scum.

I think ryan, OP, qwints, stark, BM, joe, and Fonz should give their votes some examination. Can they point to similar things such as this? Is there something I am not seeing that makes their votes better than voting hewitt?

[RedCoyote]

He's asking questions and expects [scum] players to tell the truth so that when they flip, we can go back and read their thoughts on the night results to assess a motive. From what I've seen, no one is really making convo with him in regards to the night results, so, yeah, everyone else pretty much recognizes that he's fishing and not satisfying him with that.

Yeah, and are you going to go back to where I plainly showed you how discussion

I

had with Stevie put him in the spotlight? How is it fishing to have discussion with other players? How is it fishing to go back and reread scum after they've flipped scum? That's preposterous. The definition of fishing has been stretched so thin that it has lost all of its original meaning. The only reason my wagon has garnered any significant support at all is that it is being ridden by people without the time or patience to commit to the game. BM cites some post from weeks ago, joe's essentially doing the same thing Zer0 has done since D2, Fonz flipped a coin? I don't know, I think all of these players are just ready for the night to touchdown. I'm less worried about these Kise and Javert than I am these three, because town has some stake in lynching scum today given the losses we've already sustained.

I would kindly ask that the

Mod

send out a mass prod, because I am growing more worried of a no lynch at this point.

[RedCoyote]

I forgot to finish my paragraph.

EBWOP: I'm less worried about

these

Kise and Javert than I am these three, because town has some stake in lynching scum today given the losses we've already sustained. The fact that they're riding a wagon they have no real stake in shows insincerity should be scrutinized.

[RedCoyote]

Why are you switching ryan? Because Kise told you to? Why does Kise have such a stake in preventing a hewitt lynch? Why doesn't Kise switch his vote if he is so concerned?

I think we need an extension, there just aren't enough people showing up to vote.

[RedCoyote]

Alright then.

I am a Town Roleblocker.

I have blocked alvinz, Zer0, and Person A (stark). I'll be here for the next few minutes if you want to ask me anything, but I would recommend switching to hewitt at this point. Lyncher targets, as far as I know, have always been town, and I tried my best to move this wagon without having to claim.

[RedCoyote]

I blocked Zer0 because he caused a No Lynch D2 and I blocked WC/Person A as more of a shot-in-the-dark. I have never been comfortable with this player slot (as I am sure you can relate to Amish), but this dates back to the end of D1. stark/Person A have yet to add anything big to this slot, and I see them both as trying to fly under the radar.

[RedCoyote]

To be honest, I felt more of a danger of a No lynch than I did of me actually being lynched. When I saw ryan flip, which, regardless of what happens today, I think he should be held to task for, and then Zaz vote me soon after, I felt I better claim.

I know I left a breadcrumb earlier in the game (I'm having trouble quoting it because I keep getting "No memory" errors), but I did not mean to spring this at the last minute. ryan and OP both stated at one point or another their intentions to vote hewitt, additionally, I didn't expect BM and joe to effectively leave the game at the deadline.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, fuck me. Nice work, Zaz.

[RedCoyote]

I can't tell you guys how disappointed and frustrated I was with joe for getting me lynched. I wanted so badly to just scream, "I'm the damn leader, joe! Lynch hewitt, for God's sake!"

I had an inkling after my back and forth with Javert that he was just Vanilla, and I was totally prepared to convert him the following night. How the circumstances would have changed! Well done to mafia, and props go out to everyone who stuck it out (ryan, Hewitt, King). Thanks for the game, Mod.

[RedCoyote]

The Cult thought the same, Kmd... or at least I did

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/Gr3D9xpXyXh