Mafia 94: Sickening Pimplicity (GAME OVER)

[semioldguy]

Here checking in as a replacement. In addition to needing a couple days to catch up I will be V/LA in all my games for a couple days, back problems acting up again. Hope to be back and up to speed by this weekend

[semioldguy]

Back from my back problems and reading up.

[semioldguy]

Dude, semi, look, here's the deal. This game is about to hit 5 months old. Everybody's tired. Are you scum? Because that would really help move things along. TIA.

No, I am not.

(I started reading at the beginning of the current day by the way) After only reading the current day, Papa Zito and populartajo are my top suspects in that order. But there isn't a whole lot to get reads on the other players in just the last day. I'll be going over the rest of the game as I can throughout my day at work.

[semioldguy]

Second top suspect. Papa Zito is the first. Didn't like the way your first post of the day came off, though when I get to reading past days it seems as if it will make more sense to be the way it is. Drawn out, long, appearance of dismay and the like make it feel bad to me. The wagon analysis, which you posted, also doesn't look good on yourself.

Papa Zito is my top suspect based on today because he seems to be buddy-ing you somewhat strongly, right from the get-go of his first post of the day and it continues throughout the few pages of the day that there are.

[semioldguy]

If you new kids are going to start throwing accusations around at least read more than the current day so your attacks aren't completely baseless. TIA.

I do plan on reading the rest that I haven't up to this point yet, but that hardly makes accusations from the current day completely baseless. Scum may play an excellent game at the start, and then start to slip toward the end of a game when victory is approaching, or just from trying to hold up the act for so long. Following along from the beginning may put an early bias on the view of that player due to good play in the early days and blind a person to his slipping play later in the game. The reverse can be true also.

Trying to discredit a case purely because of the fact the case focuses on a single day or days, regardless of which day or days the case stems from, is foolish if not scummy.

Even without considering the rest of the game, you are acting scummy NOW, and you still will have that to answer to that even if the rest of your game looks good. I am going to vote for players who look most scummy now, not players who looked most scummy back when. Yes, past days will help reads from the current day and an overall view can effect the current view, but the town should want to lynch the player who is most scummy currently.

[semioldguy]

Attempting to make a case, without context of SIX OTHER GAME DAYS, is foolish if not scummy.

I explained why it isn't. Your failure to back up your rebuttal with any reasoning at all doesn't make your point valid or even attempt to address the points I raise.

[semioldguy]

Even if I read the first six days and find you to be scummy in none of them, I am not going to ignore scumminess from you on the seventh day. And you shouldn't expect me to.

[semioldguy]

I'll have to more closely examine the context around his posting and lack thereof in the month and a half he was in the game, but a quick look at his ISO looks about the same as another game I was in with him around the same time in which he just wasn't active and had to be replaced. I don't find his isolation read to be very telling of any alignment. Not initially scummy and leans town. Seeing other players' mentions of him or the focus that might have been placed or not have been placed upon him during his time in the game would put what few actions he took into better perspective.

[semioldguy]

I totally agree with semiolduy seeming more guarded about his actions and being the scummiest of the replacements. A quick look at his post history, tells me semioldguy is lurking btw. Oldguy, did you reread all the game? Why rent you posting here? I want a scumlist asap.

No I haven't finished reading, not posting because my weekend kept me from really making any posts at all anywhere on site.

I like InHim's posting, even though there isn't much of it, he mostly seems town.

People seem to be mischaracterizing my stance thinking that I agree with Amished's points against Papa Zito, despite me never actually saying that I do. Just because we both have the same top suspect doesn't mean I agree with all of the case Amished puts forward or all of his attacks. I actually find Amished to be a little scummy. From my perspective it looked like he was agreeing with me, since I pointed out something that he hadn't as my reason for suspicion and he agreed with it.

My top scumlist is still Papa Zito, populartajo (and then Amished).

Papa Zito says that he is refuting the points brought up against him, or seems to think so. But he really isn't. A lot of what he defends with isn't entirely relevant or he tries to discredit parts the case to make the whole thing look bad rather than back up his play with pro-town explanations. He ignores a lot of what he is accused of, calling it ridiculous when I don't necessarily think that it all is. Even if the accusations are ridiculous, they are things that he actually did or is doing, he should be able to explain them if he are town.

The Cephrir wagon seems really strange to not have scum on it. Knowing that I'm town it would mean that either populartajo is scum, or there weren't scum. Something else seems a little out of place about populartajo now that I've given it some more thought, but first I'd like him to respond to the following question.

@populartajo
I didn't find a comment from you about my pointing out Papa Zito buddying you heavily at the beginning of this day. Do you agree or disagree with my view on this?

[semioldguy]

SOG is likely scum because he's just nodding his head along to every little mistake you make.

Would you mind pointing out where exactly it is that I've done this?

One of you and SOG is scum and I'm very comfortable with that. I want to deal with the more obvious case before looking for the more hidden one, since one will help reveal the other.

What makes one of us the obvious case and why do one of us HAVE to be scum?

[semioldguy]

Call it him being one of the last two players alive in the Cephir wagon where I doubt there was only one scum on it.

This point also is just as much a strike against yourself. Using this as a point in your case against further hurts you when I flip town. We don't have two mislynches to give.

Call it buddying to you without having read the game and then calling you his third choice when being attacked on this. You decide.

Where am I buddying to Amished? Would you mind quoting this or pointing it out to me?

@Papa Zito
As town, when I buddy up to someone, whether inadvertently or intentionally for whatever reason, I would find it odd for that player not to have some suspicion toward me for my buddying if they were town. Even more so when it is so directly pointed out. I'd say it is a town tell for that player to be suspicious. The fact that you have been buddying him and he is okay with that raises flags all over the place.

Also, why are you so sure that one of the replaces has to be scum? How can you know this? It is entirely possible there are two active players last night that were scum. There isn't a way to prove or disprove one or the other. Such assumptions shouldn't be made. This seems like a huge oversight.

[semioldguy]

^^ More buddying.

Funny thing is that when you use it, its ok, no?

No. It doesn't make it okay when I use it. It is one of the things holding me back because if I am not sure of myself that you are scum I become a very easy mislynch the next day and we lose.

I dont need to repeat why is such antitown to make an attack without having skimmed at least the thread. You could miss obvscum reads and you could miss strong town reads in past days. I still have no idea what do you think of the rest of the players. If you had at least done this, you would understand why I made that first post and why Zito and me have this "strange" relationship going on. ( /in b4 scumz and gayz).

I believe I have explained my reasoning for why it is not anti-town, perhaps you should address those points more specifically. (aka, yes you do need to explain/repeat). The point is scum might play a very good game up until a certain point which could create false-reads on that player for those who have been following along since the beginning. When that player starts making obvscum tells in later days, other players miss this because of bias. Even if a player hasn't been scummy for six game days, that isn't an excuse for that player to all of a sudden be very scummy on the seventh.

Reanalyzing that post, the thing I dont understand is why your top suspect is someone who "seems" to be buddying. Why not me? Why not the player that has drawn out, long, appearance of dismay and the like posts? Why make this differentiation?

Huh?

I still don't see how I am buddying to Amished. Your example is really stretching in my opinion. I disagree.

It makes me think that you just read what Amished had posted and decided to make shitty cases against both.

I don't think my cases are shitty. If they were then why aren't either of you directly able to refute them? You both keep avoiding and deflecting.

Ironically enough, you have also made evident that you were buddying with Amished probably without knowing.

This makes it look like you've only got one foot in the door in regards to your stance of my buddying with Amished.

If you thought Amished was being scummy for being the one agreeing with you then why didnt you say this before people attacked you for buddying up with him?

Because I like my other cases better. In the games I've played I don't like to have more than one or maybe two cases being strongly pushed by me at a time. I pick the ones I like best and go with them until I don't like them anymore.

And more importantly, if you didnt agree with all of the case Amished puts forward or all of his attacks (sic), then why didnt you call him upon this?

I didn't think to, but should have.

I asked for a scumlist, too. Please provide one asap. You still havent answered why you were lurking in this game while posting in the others. You know this is a strong scumtell for you, oldguy, right?

I did give you a scumlist. And lurking isn't a scumtell for me. I have been busy recently, some personal issues I'd rather not discuss, and when I don't have much time I either don't post at all (such as this past weekend) or I am only on for a few minutes. It's much easier to catch up when I've only got a few posts to read when compared to a game that has a double digit amount of posts I still need to evaluate (as I did on Thursday/Friday).

[semioldguy]

Papa Zito is the most scummy player here. I do not get a town read from him at all. His posting continues to not sit well with me and I don't see how a town aligned player would follow his apparent motivations or concerns. Whats more odd is his refusal to look at half of the players left in the game for suspect and focuses entirely on those of us who just replaced in when it can't even be proven that one of us would be scum.

populartajo: I think you might be scum. You aren't suspicious of things that I think a town player should be suspicious of in your position and you are suspicious of things that don't make sense to me. Some of your arguments appear flawed as well.

Amished is neutral leaning scummy as well. Though I support his top lynch candidate, I don't think the rules he is using to make his case and the tells he is getting are all indicative of scumminess. I'll post where and why later, I really don't have much time right now, this post alone is already going to make me late.

Empking, neutral leaning scummy. His Vote on Papa Zito seemed like he was just following along. Additionally I find it odd how on October 23rd he finds me likely to be town, but then on the 26th I am in his top four scum suspects despite me not having made a post between his two different reads of me.

@Empking, what made your read on me change during this time?

WarWound seems likely town to me, but is a loose cannon that would be dangerous to keep around into Lylo. He is easily swayed by others. I don't want to lynch him as I think he is probably town, but even as town I think he might do more harm than good to the town.

InHimishallbe appears the most likely town player to me, more likely than WarWound-town. His reasoning and concerns make sense as coming from a town perspective.

[semioldguy]

Sorry, V/LA until Monday

[semioldguy]

Back, will be reading up on what I missed throughout my workday.

[semioldguy]

@populartajo
I disagree with Amished about Papa Zito for going for easy targets. I don’t think that is the case nor a point that would make someone scummy. Easy targets could just as well be scum. Since town knows nothing of others’ alignments, it seems just as likely for town to go for an easy target as scum. Amished seems to focus on Papa Zito’s weak attacks as a cornerstone of his case against him, while I don’t think weak attacks are as condemning as the things in the game he is ignoring.

I don’t fully agree with the bandwagon account Amished notes against Papa Zito, for a couple reasons. Others in the game also have high bandwagon accounts and for some of those who don’t their predecessors lurked out of the game enough to keep the player slot from having potentially higher bandwagon accounts. Being on the bandwagons frequently isn’t necessarily scummy; I would argue that it is also scummy to stay off bandwagons and refrain from voting or associating with group of voters frequently. It is not pro-town to withhold your vote. Bandwagoning is scummy only if the reasons for which the player is voting are scummy, in which case it won’t matter it if is a bandwagon or not.

Parts I agree with are the lack of logical defense portions of Amished’s case against Papa Zito.

I was not voting for anyone because I haven’t made a decision between my top two suspects, you being my other suspect. I am cautious of lynching you because I know that if you are a mislynch is sets up my mislynch very easily which would be a loss for the town. It is surprising to me that you do not seem to share this viewpoint, which seems like a very easy point to see as town.

@Amished
I haven’t read the game in it’s entirety. I have only read today along with some (incomplete) ISO reading as well as portions of the game that have been referenced during today’s discussion. I haven’t found past indications that give me any sort of town read on Papa Zito.

muzzz does appear to be breadcrumbing a guilty on Papa Zito by his post. I looked through that portion of the game a couple times now and came to the conclusion that it would make sense for muzzz to be breadcrumbing the guilty results there. Scum likely was able to pick up on this breadcrumb before anyone else as only they could know he had found scum which is why he was killed. He never budged from suspicion on either EriktheRed or Papa Zito during his final day.

Populartajo’s 1028 is scummy defense

Vote: Papa Zito

[semioldguy]

Assuming he is town, from his point of view he has a hypothetical scum (me) calling actively for his lynch. Yet who is his first suspect?

My first suspect is a hypothetical scum (other than you) who is calling actively for my lynch. Your argument for it being odd/scummy that you are my second suspect doesn't make sense.

If I had you as my top suspect, you could say the same thing about Zito in his being my second suspect yet someone I think is scum who is pushing for my lynch.

[semioldguy]

Actually, its not. What is the reason that makes you think you could be wrong about me when the majority of your posts attack me of being scum?

Because I don't

know

anyone's alignment. The consequences for the town of me being wrong about you are greater than me being wrong about any other player in my mind. That is why I am cautious.

Knowing that I am town and that a possible town flip from you is further condemning to me, to a considerable degree, I know that town can't afford two mislynches or we lose. Why are you not concerned with the possibility of me flipping town and that flip being detrimental to you and likely to help push your lynch?

A better question, what makes Zito more suspect than me? Do you think Zito scum makes more likely to be scum or town?

read my posts. I've given my suspicions of him. He hasn't refuted anything and posts garbage responses that fly in the face of logic. Papa Zito's town play is better than this from my experience playing with him. He is putting no effort to actual scum hunting.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second question. It's missing a word or two.

[semioldguy]

Yes.

I think equally that Papa Zito is scum (if not more), but with less consequences to the town in the event he were to flip town.

[semioldguy]

Papa Zito is still the better option.

I am not worried about being mislynched today, I worried about being mislynced tomorrow in the event we mislynch today. That should be pretty clear from my concerns. In the event of Lylo tomorrow, town have MORE to lose by being lynched than scum do. In a 3:2 situation a scum lynch doesn't lose the game for scum, but a town lynch does lose the game for town.

[semioldguy]

Apologies for my inactivity the past few days. Will be catching back up and posting tonight when I get home.

[semioldguy]

...and the same player that kept attacking Zito even though I had lots of probabilities of being scum from his own point of view. Just waiting for inhim to finish his analysis and others to share his top suspect. Let's just end this torment.

For the record, sog posted in his game he is modding about four hours ago.

So are you saying that it is scummy of me not to vote for the player who is only my second top suspect of being scum while I am voting for the player I find most likely to be scum? Is it scummy to have more than one suspect when it is known that two scum are left in the game? Yes, tajo, you have many probabilities of being scum from my point of view. Papa Zito did as well.

You claims at me about my inactivity are horrible at best and scummy at worst. You previously claim my inactivity here was indicative of me being scum. At that time I wasn't posting in any of my games, so I don;t know what makes it a tell for this game specifically.

Making a case that I am inactive and using the game I am modding as your point of reference to my lurking is also bad. It shouldn't have to be explained why moderating duties come before that of a player. The post you refer to in the quote above was the only thing I had time to post all day. Using that as a point in a case is low and appears as if you are grasping for a case on me.

I don't think it is a forgone conclusion that there had to be scum on the Zito wagon.Your questions to Emp on that matter are a lot of wifom and speculation.

Vote: Populartajo

@Everyone
I don't think it wise to completely discount WarWound. His play style makes it incredibly easy to hide behind. I have a gut town read on him myself, but am surprised at the easiness with which everyone seems to regard him as obv-town.

[semioldguy]

So are you saying that it is scummy of me not to vote for the player who is only my second top suspect of being scum while I am voting for the player I find most likely to be scum?

Err... no. This is what you said about us:

I think equally that Papa Zito is scum (if not more), but with less consequences to the town in the event he were to flip town.

So in your mind, we were equally scummy. You didn't have any argument to prove why Zito was more scummy than me (if you can provide one then go for it but I doubt you are going to find it).

In the quote of me you provided here it explicitly states that I do not thik you could be more scummy than Zito. Don't misrepresent.

I tried to prove to you that from your own pov, I was the one that should be the scummiest and I was the one you should be voting for.

This is a dumb statement. In what way does this make your case against me valid and how did you actually try to give yourself away as the one I shold vote for?

In a Zito town or in a Zito scum scenario, you would still have thought I was scum and we would have been in the same scenario we are today. But you didn't listen because:

a) there was a juicy wagon pushed on Zito by Amishedtunnelvision town and

b) because my flip could have incriminated you.

I can't blame Amished because I also got a scummy read on Papa Zito. It had no bearing upon the weight at which was on him, my read/conclusion about Zito was reached independently of from others.

Its funny because obviously you are not worried about voting me now since my lynch gives you the victory.

It won't give the victory, and though I am less worried about lynching you today for your case against me that further continuing to be a load of crap in regards to the points you bring up against me, many of which are either not true or are greatly stretching.

Oh, but yesterday you so had to fake that you were so worried about me being town so you could still be voting Zito, right?

I didn't fake anything. Zito was my top suspect yesterday and I still stand by that he was the scummiest player and the best vote for town.

Seriously, did you see you yesterday voting today for other player than me?

It was not a conclusion that I would vote for you today. I could have seen me voting someone else though it was not extremely likely. Your play today further suggests to me that you are scum.

Sog, I ask this question to you. Who is my scumpartner in this scenario? Have you at least thought about this? I sincerely doubt it. Have you even analysed the probabilities of me being a townie before voting me?

Yes, I have thought about this. Inhim and Empking make little sense as partners together, so I highly doubt that would be a scum pairing. My gut town read of WarWound has me not considering him strongly as in a pair with anyone. I can see reasons for you to be scum with either Empking or Inhim at this point.

(also, from Inhim's perspective, he doesn't think you and I are likely scum partners, which he is right because I am not scum. For him, Empking would then have to be scum if he is discounting WarWound. Unless of course Inhim himself is scum which is not something I have disregarded at this point.)

You claims at me about my inactivity are horrible at best and scummy at worst. You previously claim my inactivity here was indicative of me being scum. At that time I wasn't posting in any of my games, so I don't know what makes it a tell for this game specifically.

Dude, you were posting in your other games the first time I called on your lurking. Stop lying.

An explanation for this was already given in the thread. And no I am not lying, you have also claimed me as lurking here when I wasn't posting at all anywhere on the site.

Making a case that I am inactive and using the game I am modding as your point of reference to my lurking is also bad. It shouldn't have to be explained why moderating duties come before that of a player. The post you refer to in the quote above was the only thing I had time to post all day. Using that as a point in a case is low and appears as if you are grasping for a case on me.

Were you on the site? Yes. Did you post in the game you are modding? Yes. Did you have time for make a flavorful scene and look for replacements? Yes. Did you post here or did you even post when were you going to post here as you usually do? No. That's a case for me.

No, I didn't have time to look for replacements at that time. I had time to post a lynch vote/scene (most of which are pre-written). Also I don't usually post in my games saying when I will post next unless I get prodded and to avoid my replacement. I actually dislike when a player come into a game and say they are going to make a post at ___ time. To say that I normally do this is a load of crap. I wasn't expecting not to have access over the weekend so I also would not have posted that I expected to be V/LA.

I don't think it is a forgone conclusion that there had to be scum on the Zito wagon.Your questions to Emp on that matter are a lot of wifom and speculation.

So the scum are inhim and me? Cuz we are the ones that weren't in the Zito wagon. You really haven't analysed the results of the lynch before voting me, right?

I could see a scum pairing between you and Inhim. I don't think there had to be a scum on yesterday's lynch. With Amished's flip I'm nearly positive there weren't two.

I don't think it wise to completely discount WarWound. His play style makes it incredibly easy to hide behind.

What is the point of this post? You just said you had a a gut town read on him...?

Because I don't think he should be discounted. That is the point of this post. It's right there in the first line. Gut reads can be wrong, and discounting someone completely is a way town has lost games I've been in because that player they were discounting as obv-town was in fact scum. Because of this I don't like to consider players as obv-town in endgame and don't think it wise for others to do so as well.

[semioldguy]

Was I wrong or do we have another day?

[semioldguy]

I was about to Unvote, but when I refresed I saw the second vote and it was too late.

[semioldguy]

After unvoting I was going to ask you to explain why voting tajo over me was your decision since you were saying Empking as a pair for either of us.

I checked back three minutes too late.