Mafia 94: Sickening Pimplicity (GAME OVER)

[ElectricBadger]

Greetings, everyone - thanks for having me in the game as a replacement! About to head out, but I've read through the thread (zounds lots to consider there) and will post something more meaty once I get the time.

[ElectricBadger]

Infection/replacement

*Sniffles* I'm still just 'replacement'....

Anyways, my take right now on scum potential:

-Scolium was scummy as all heck, and I was a bit surprised to see him fall off the radar on day 2. The weak self-vote wasn't, to me, incriminating on its own, but it shows a need to mount a defense (with sarcasm rather than logic, calmness, or a valid re-direction), and came across as a bit panicked. When it was pointed out a self vote was anti-town, he neglected to change the vote: I think he was fearful of pointing a finger at anyone innocent, lest it rebound, and also unwilling to out one of his scumbuddies: again he focused on defense and panicked, unwilling to make a wrong move. A townie without something to hide wouldn’t be so defensive; or at least, shouldn’t be. Finally changed his vote, but only to jump on an easy bandwagon after still more negative comments about his continuing self vote, and never moved to the pyro bandwagon. His explanations seemed weak and forced, he seemed to panic easily when confronted and came across with a generally shifty air.

None of these things is, on its own, completely condemning; but I see a pattern that leaves me certain there’s scum. At this point, I'm confident enough that I'd lynch.

Stef: I need to review more to find the exact posts, but seemed generally very questionable as well. FOS.

Adel: The 'secret method' is a really strange ploy, and I don't trust it. Since then, however, he seems to be doing a good job hunting. FOS.

Tajo: As the main opponent of the now-dead doctor, FOS. But a clear WIFOM situation; mafia may have seen an internal dispute and offed one in the hope we'd mislynch the other. I'm continuing with my gut feeling from before tonight, however, that he's a fiesty and aggressive townie, not scum.

Empking: elusive, misleading, misdirecting; either scum, or such a bad townie that he’s interfering with the investigation to the scum’s benefit, focusing our attention on him and not on hunting. He seems experienced, so I'm inclined against dismissing him as a bad townie, but either way I'm willing to lynch him on general principle.

Vote Empking.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm not sure what I think about all this yet, but I think we should be able to get some good info from two scum lynches and a wagon which went to L-1 on someone who is prob town.

The scum lynches may be telling, but I'm not sure I'm willing to take too much from the Achilles BW. Frankly, when I was reading that section I had to check back to the first page 'cause I couldn't believe he wasn't the one lynched. Nor am I entirely willing to write him off as confirmed townie due to the Pyro thing: I think it may have been such an obvious error the mafia might have felt they'd look suspicious not lynching one of their own.

[ElectricBadger]

InfectedElectricBadger, post 777 goes with the tide in terms of top suspects (which is fine since I agree with most of those reads). But I am not impressed with your reasons, for instance, you say nothing about why Stef is scummy. If you can't remember why he's scummy, I question why you would put him down as suspicious.

Well, I haven't had a chance to do anything but read, no interaction on my own, so yeah - a bit with the flow of things is probably to be expected. Though I do vary on a couple points, at least (s/a Achilles and my preference for Scolium, which everyone else seems to have ignored since day 1 despite his presence on most lists of suspected).

No specific reasons for Stef because I foolishly didn't start off taking notes, and since I was only pulled into this a couple days ago I haven't been able to re-read for each thread of suspicion. I'll post more on Stef soon, though, if you'd like specifics. You say reason(s) though - is there anything else you have questions about?

[ElectricBadger]

Hey Zito, good to have ya! But...

or myself to remove a distraction.

*Facepalm* all that reaction over your predescessor's self vote and you're starting off with yourself on your list of top 3 lynchings?

[ElectricBadger]

XD Sup Dark? No worries mate, any of those three are helpful to the town.

See? I've already attracted scum to my wagon.

Why do you see darkstrike as scum? You didn't mention him on your first list.


elvis, to get back to you re: stef - I reread and indeed, the main reason I don't have much notes on stef is 'cause he barely posted since May, and most of my specific notes are from later in the thread. My general feeling of him as scum is from post 75 and those that followed: Arguing the minutiae of logic and the validity of any imperfect tell in defense of Scolium. Kept pushing this past any logical point – should have moved on to scum hunting, not entrenched himself with defending another player with semantics. The ONLY thing this achieved was to take the attention off Scolium, and it succeeded. This entire exchange was frankly painful to read through. Nor did he ever make any real effort at scum hunting.

On the other hand, his mistake of only looking for "4 scum" seemed like a simple slip. I don’t read much into it, unlike elvis seemed to.

Part of this, admittedly, is based on my conviction that Scolium is scum. I think his lynch would confirm stef as a scumbuddy and get rid of two opponents while our cop does his thing to find the last one.

Unvote

Empking (looks like his BW is already breaking down, though for the reasons I stated earlier I'll jump back on it if it builds again) and

Vote Zito

[ElectricBadger]

I have a bad feeling about this electricbadger. Dont know why yet.

When ya do, let me know. I'm happy to help clear it up. Probably it's 'cause I'm starting a bit aggressive, mostly 'cause I figure that if I were scum that's exactly what I shouldn't do: instead I would sit back and keep my neutral status.

[quote="] I think his (Spolium) lynch would confirm stef as a scumbuddy

Why?

Also, what do you think of Adel?[/quote]

Because Stef took horrible pains to dismiss elvis' arguments against Scolium, and the only reason I can see to do that is to help fellow scum.

As for Adel, my initial statement:

Adel: The 'secret method' is a really strange ploy, and I don't trust it. Since then, however, he seems to be doing a good job hunting. FOS.

[/quote][/quote]
Hasn't changed since today started.

[ElectricBadger]

But I'm not liking Badger much either. His professed reason for unvoting is absolutely awful. Just like his pro-active WIFOM defense.

As I mentioned, I still support a lynch of Emp. But as I also mentioned in my first post, my favorite for scum is Scolium, and I'd rather explore that than lynch someone who IMO is 50% likely to be scum and 50% likely to be a bad townie. With Adel switching to scolium/zita, I was hoping to push a bit there and resume him as a suspect - since he's been allowed to lurk since day 1.

WIFOM wasn't a defense. I mentioned tajo because I wanted to hear if anyone else got anything from the choice of rofl as the mafia kill, and as I explained I didn't get much either way. I think it's important to examine the possibility, though.

Elvis, anything yet beyond 'some reason' and my talking too much to back things up?

Tajo:

He's pushing, and asking questions, and willing to draw a fair amount of suspicion on himself to scum hunt. I don't think a real scum would push that far. I still FOS him, but I don't see much in his posting that would help the scum.

[ElectricBadger]

With 1/4 of us scum, 50/50 odds aren't bad, imo. Not ideal - thus, he's not at the top of my list - but not bad. And you're forgetting the part where, if he is a townie, his obfuscation is seriously interfering with scum hunting.

Heading out, catch ya'll tonight.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm actually starting to agree with Adel about Tajo. He wasn't on my list particularly until today, but he's highlighted himself to me.

-Accused Adel as soon as he voted for Zito, distracting from (IMO) known scum.

-The post after I joined, went after me with a complete BS post: "I have a bad feeling about this electricbadger. Dont know why yet." Misdirecting without actually saying a thing. Then prompted me about Adel, despite the fact I'd already made my opinion clear.

-Hasn't let up a bit from the distraction, even throwing out ridiculous implications like we should never vote for anyone we don't know 100% is scum.

-Followed with the bizarre statement "But Im giving him the benefit of the doubt. For now." Apparently Adel can't agree with me OR vote against me. Complete misdirection and pointless attack.

-His list, on close examination, is bizarre to me. Nadroj/stef is 'probable town'? Zito and empking are neutral? Favorite baddies includes duckduck? and a pair of marginal scum suspects?

Tajo=scum. Accusing Spolium and pointing out it would implicate or absolve stef forced his hand and he's playing it hard and fast.

[ElectricBadger]

Neutral or probably town:
Achilles
Darkstrike_11
duckduck96
ErikTheRed
inHimshallibe
muzzz
Simenon
ZazieR (Red)
elvis_knits

FOS:
Empking's Alt
Adel

Scummy as heck:
nadroj15(stef)
Papa Zito(spolium)
populartajo

[ElectricBadger]

How the fuck it is a nonsense attack? The guy said Emp was 50/50 in probabilites of coming town/scum. Why the hell did he vote him then?

You're just going to push this to the bitter end, aren't you? Pitiful attempt to vilify much?

I think I've answered this pretty thoroughly. Or are you going to honestly claim you've never put a vote on someone up to L-3 without being more than 50% sure they're scum?

And why do you list stef/nadroj as 'probable town'?

[ElectricBadger]

I'm actually starting to agree with Adel about Tajo. He wasn't on my list particularly until today, but he's highlighted himself to me.

-Accused Adel as soon as he voted for Zito, distracting from (IMO) known scum.

What do you mean with known scum? Do you think Adel's vote for Zito is a good one?

Waste of space question. Yes. Doesn't clear Adel, but I agree with the vote...which is pretty obvious from my own vote.

-The post after I joined, went after me with a complete BS post: "I have a bad feeling about this electricbadger. Dont know why yet." Misdirecting without actually saying a thing. Then prompted me about Adel, despite the fact I'd already made my opinion clear.

Your opinion on Adel was not clear. If it had been clear, you wouldnt have bothered in providing an explanation when I asked you to explain why you thought Adel was hunting. Also, I dont know what you think about many people. Please provide a list of ALL the players including probable alingment.

*Points to post 821* mmkay.

-Hasn't let up a bit from the distraction, even throwing out ridiculous implications like we should never vote for anyone we don't know 100% is scum.

Prove I said that. Prove it. You said Emp was 50/50. He wasnt even 51/49 more likely to be scum. Why the hell did you vote him?

See my last post, and the others responding to this. I can't imagine why a townie would blame me for putting pressure on suspected scum.

And as 3/12 of us are scum, 25% is neutral, not 50%. At least, that's how my odds work.

-Followed with the bizarre statement "But Im giving him the benefit of the doubt. For now." Apparently Adel can't agree with me OR vote against me. Complete misdirection and pointless attack.

What is so wrong in wanting Adel to prove I could have a bad read of him?

If someone is doing something you think confirms they're mafia, you let them keep doing it - you don't tell them to cease and desist. The ONLY reason for the implied threat is to stop an investigation, which holds no benefit for town. This and your last point are the specific things that put you on my super scummy list.

-His list, on close examination, is bizarre to me. Nadroj/stef is 'probable town'? Zito and empking are neutral? Favorite baddies includes duckduck? and a pair of marginal scum suspects?

If you had bothered to read my posts you would realize why do I think stef was probable town. What is wrong in having Zito and Emp as neutlral? What is so wrong about suspecting duckcudk. Do you think he is prob town? You only provide a "is bizarre to me". But you dont provide any reasons why it is bizarre.

Bizarre in the sense that it seems to disagree on many points with most other reads. I'm not going to argue every point or try leading - others have their own lists, and they'll either question yours or not based on their own feelings, not mine.

[ElectricBadger]

*blinks*

What dazzles me is your ability to single-mindedly rehash everything that's been said by or about Adel.

I think that sums it up largely for me. Lots of cynical/obvious comments, not really anything uniquely insightful.

I think that yes, Adel is either making some bad errors at scum hunting, or trying to look without really doing so. I don't really know, but I think if he were scum he'd keep a slightly lower profile, as that's obviously something he is aware of from his own posts. All of which is where I was at the start of the day; I see better suspects and I'd rather keep on those.

The godawful list smacks of scum looking busy, though - a whole lot of effort for an OMGUS, rather than examining all suspects. I'd really like to hear zito's take on the other 10.

[ElectricBadger]

Not defending you, no. I just see scummier scummy scum and dislike Zito's OMGUS redirect. Trying to decide if he's distancing from a scumbuddy or blaming a townie, actually...and whether your starter vote against him, quickly abandoned when it started to build, was just another distancing move: you could claim later that you voted against him, but it was at a time when it conveniently didn't matter.

[ElectricBadger]

I think you're an experienced player that wouldn't pull BS like having a super secret plan with alts when you were trying to be one of the crowd. I think you'd launch some attacks and investigations, maybe a trap or two, yes, but not all the oddity you have been so far. My gut says that's more indicative of a vet townie who thinks he's five times more clever than the rest of us. This of course leads to a whole series of WIFOM garbage that I've been sorting through the entire time I read this thread - which is why I keep coming back 'I don't really know'.

Ultimately, you haven't done anything that I can't see a townie doing in a fit of hubris; whereas stef spending nearly every post taking the pressure off spolium or tajo's comments above don't fit any townie logic.

I think you're scummy, but I think Zito is very very scummy. I think if Zito=mafia then we can logically conclude that Stef=mafia, while -if- Zito isn't then Stef had nothing to gain by the defense and is probably a townie. But I think a lynch on Zito will net us 2 mafia; compared to that, your scumminess is secondary and if you are mafia it would probably come out during the votes and can be dealt with better on another day.

So basically, my reasoning is that even if you are scum, 2 mafia is better than 1.

[ElectricBadger]

Of course, now you're forcing me to defend why I'm 'defending' you, which would be a very nice ploy for scum, especially if your vote starts the bandwagon you're hoping for an I'm proven innocent in the reveal. You certainly wouldn't want me doing that if I might potentially be revealed as mafia.

[ElectricBadger]

Also badger not responding to my questions in 854 pretty much makes me more sure of my suspicions of him and a very very likely Adel scumpartner.

I didn't really find anything in that post worth responding to, is all. I'm okay leaving you scandalized by the fact Empking is no longer top of my list for scum and letting you concoct theories about whether the order of my list means anything. Just as you're doing now, when pressed you spam poor questions and demand scum lists (or more thorough scum lists) to take the attention off your own scummy or missing answers.

I'm still rather curious about your assertion that you never vote anyone without being sure they're scum, and alarmed at how you keep pushing to get a lynch before we've completed current lines of questioning. A bit desperate for the distraction from you and your scumbuddies? A bit alarmed to see their names posted and fearing we'll finish sussing you out?

[ElectricBadger]

So to sum up my three favorite scum today:

Adel and then I vote against Zito.

Tajo immediately launches attacks at both of us, beginning with such a solid foundation as 'I have a bad feeling but don't know why'.

Zito and Nadroj, when they get around to entering the conversation, do nothing but launch single minded attacks against Adel, without any glimmer of investigation into anyone else. Nadroj's was rather feeble, and Zito's was one amazing dedication of time when he can't comment about anyone else at all - I'm guessing his scumbuddy sent him a list of who to go after and he just read over that one person.

Despite Tajo's penchant for demanding itemized, detailed scum lists anytime he's backpedaling, he hasn't commented on that at all. Why investigate people when they're agreeing with you, right? Except, oh wait, you certainly expect me to.

With the heavy push to have Adel lynched (three whines for a quick lynch and counting) I'm having a very hard time believing that Tajo and Adel could both be scum together; the trio of stef/nadroj spolium/zito and tajo is working too much to defend each other and have done way too much scummy activity independently and together for none of them to be mafia; unless my take on Tajo, Stef and Spolium/Zito are all horribly wrong, I'm now inclined to view Adel as town with a pile of three scum pushing in desperation to get his bandwagon moving.

[ElectricBadger]

And to take a page from populartajo:

Tajo, Nadroj and Zito, scum lists please.

[ElectricBadger]

From previous votes:

Vote Count as of Post 363
(10) Achilles (Adel, Kison, Stef, elvis_knits, dingoatemybaby, muzzz, Cephrir, Darkstrike_11, Pyromaniac, duckduck96)
(4) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe, The Red Severum, Empking's Alt, ekiM)
(1) Spolium (Infection)
(1) Cephrir (populartajo)
(1) Stef (roflcopter)

(3) Not Voting (Spolium, Achilles, Simenon)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch!

Pyro and Stef on the Achilles wagon; 2 of 4 mafia, don't want to all pile on of course. Tajo on Cephrir - where I suspect he stayed because hammering would have highlighted him way too much during the reveal.

Vote Count as of Post 423
(10) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe, The Red Severum, Empking's Alt, ekiM, Adel, elvis_knits, Darkstrike_11, Simenon, Achilles, Cephrir)
(6) Achilles (Kison, Stef, dingoatemybaby, muzzz, Pyromaniac, duckduck96)
(1) Spolium (Infection)
(1) Cephrir (populartajo)
(1) Stef (roflcopter)

(1) Not Voting (Spolium)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch!

None of the trio on the Pyro wagon. If nothing else, statistically unlikely.

Vote Count as of Post 459

(11) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe, The Red Severum, Empking's Alt, ekiM, elvis_knits, Darkstrike_11, Simenon, Achilles, Cephrir, Spolium)
(4) Achilles (Kison, Stef, muzzz, Pyromaniac)
(1) Spolium (Infection)
(1) Cephrir (populartajo)
(1) Stef (roflcopter)
(1) Darkstrike_11 (Adel)

(1) Not Voting (ErikTheRed)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch!

Pyromaniac is lynched. He was a Mafia G
oon.

Spolium jumps aboard the pyro wagon at the last minute, when it was clearly inevitable: his method of ducking the suspicion he created in D1.

For all of these there's also the telling rofl vote sitting on Stef, who was busy diving into lurk mode at the time.

Vote Count as of Post 770
(9) Cephrir (muzzz, roflcopter, ErikTheRed, Achilles, Simenon, populartajo, elvis_knits, Cephrir, Adel)
(2) Empking's Alt (inHimshallibe, Darkstrike_11)
(1) elvis_knits (Empking's Alt)


(5) Not Voting (duckduck96, Infection, Spolium, Stef, The Red Severum)

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch!

Cephrir, Serial Killer, lynched Day 2

Less telling, with 2 of the trio either lurking or checked out. Tajo gets his lynch - who would have appeared townie to mafia - and none of the trio have any votes on them, why they went back to D1 for their night kill list.

[ElectricBadger]

Almost forgot with all the evidence:

Unvote

Zito (I still see him as super scum, I still think he would confirm the Stef connection, but Tajo seems the biggest threat to the town at the moment) and

Vote PopularTajo

[ElectricBadger]

Elvis, you still have Adel at neutral?

Also, badger what do you think of this?

Adel, I might be missing something. What makes you think Im scum?

I think that if you are scum then you are most likely scum with infection (due to his place on your various lists, always low/almost scum for later busing, despite that he just wasn't posting) and the nonsense attack you just made against Electric Badge (Infection replacement) -- I can't wrap my head around it unless it is a distancing trick.

I'll call your bluff, and vote to lynch your scumbuddy:
unvote, vote: ElectricBadger

What do I think of what? This is mafia, we all doubt and investigate one another. Adel did so to me a couple times, and me to him.

Which makes it a couple more times than you, zito and nadroj have questioned each other. Which leaves me completely baffled as to how I'm the one who's following blindly - you can argue distancing WIFOM garbage all you want, but agreement is one thing and at least we ARE asking questions, which is way less scummy than blind acceptance and railroading.

I don't really know what to do with Adel, and that is not something that happens to me normally. Adel is a bit of a mindfuck to me this game. I don't really like any of her behavior -- it goes against my playstyle. I don't like traps, and I don't like her supposedly acting scummy to catch scum attacking her (circular reasoning fail?). But I also don't think Adel sucks at being scum, which is where the problem arises. She's playing like newb scum. Although, maybe it would be genius for a smart player to play like dumb scum, and everyone assumes they're too smart to actually do that?? (Do you see where I am mindfucked here?)

I keep waiting for Adel to do something that will make it all make sense.

Maybe I can reread Adel and do better than this. Maybe I am making it more complicated than it should be.

My take on Adel, put much more eloquently. The only thing - literally, the ONLY thing - clearing Adel imo is the singlemindedness of the attack by Tajo, Zito and Nadroj. Tajo and Adel can't both be scum. If Adel is lynched and turns up mafia, then pretty much my whole line of thinking is shot to hell; on the other hand, if he turns up townie then I think my accusations towards you three will be proven very accurate. The only good thing about the way this is going, if I'm right. On the other hand, the same thing if Tajo flips townie.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote, vote: Erik

He was the only person not voting when Pyro was lynched. He has some interactions with and about Adel on D2, but never calls her scummy. At the start of D3 he suddenly suggests we should lynch her after Emp. Then votes her with a craptastic, misrepresenting, WIFOM-based reason. After which he neatly recites all the accepted reasons to vote Adel.

I think that makes him scummier than Zito.

Intrigued by the line of thought re: Erik, and reading through his and dingo's posts to glean any more. So far I'm not ready to vote him as scum, but definitely questioning his easy place on my neutral list. The EmpKing/Adel comment seemed very leading and easy-target-ish, without really stating reasons. What were they, specifically, Erik? I'll try to return soon with more thoughts.

Not sure I see anything productive coming out of the Adel is Playing Other Games theme; both sides seem grasping at this point.

[ElectricBadger]

So, Nadroj, you're just fine with coasting through the game and letting all the other players do the work for you?

Wins Most Ironic Statement award, btw. From my reading so far, both Dingo and Erik mostly lurked and coasted, simple responses - mostly one liners - enough to keep up posting rates to acceptable levels but not really accomplish much except move with the crowd.

Erik - why the low level of questions/posting? How do you see this helping town?

[ElectricBadger]

I've been called scummy for doing just that before, on the grounds of not providing any additional information.

...

I don't see it helping town, honestly. I'll answer the first question in twilight if I'm lynched (or endgame or something if I'm not), but I'll tell you it doesn't relate to my role.

Fairly satisfied with your answers except for these. But really not liking these.

Nadroj, Zito - your takes on Erik?

[ElectricBadger]

...

What's with the self voting this game?

[ElectricBadger]

Quickest, perhaps, if you're town. Definitely not the best; just in this game, the Achilles wagon shows that even at the last minute things can turn on scum.

[ElectricBadger]

Well, seeing who hammered you may have helped, actually, as there are still 3 scum at large. And you just stifled Sim's questioning of Tajo.

Understand your reasoning...disappointed with your choice, though.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm...I've given elvis a couple odd looks as well. Care to explain your reasoning there?

[ElectricBadger]

suggested lynch order:

Tajo
Papa Zito
nadroj15
EriktheRed
InHim

Agree with the first 4, atm, and even in that order. InHim is still neutral for me, though I'll try to read up on him and elvis during the night.

I particularly think we need to attack our lurkers. This crew is mercurial enough that most suspicion seems to fall on whoever is talking the most.

[ElectricBadger]

If you are town, then you played terrible.

Agreed. And not surprised to see him lynched, honestly, or that some pushed for it. But I remain deeply troubled by the single minded attack, refusal to consider other suspicions or question why players were bandwagoning that was displayed by tajo, zito and nadroj.

And I assume the 3/3 comment means he really is town...no reason to lie at this point...or if he is then it's annoyingly petty.

[ElectricBadger]

I think so, yeah. Was by my count, and that was his declared reason for doing it.

[ElectricBadger]

True dat.

[ElectricBadger]

I see you found your voice, now the lynch is done....

[ElectricBadger]

Well, it's our last chance to hear from one of our townies, so I'd say it's actually an excellent time to put forward final opinions and lists. And I think we do indeed have much more solid suspects than we've started previous days with. Obviously, if Adel is fucking with our heads with the Townie claims, things will change.

[ElectricBadger]

Well, it's our last chance to hear from one of our townies, so I'd say it's actually an excellent time to put forward final opinions and lists. And I think we do indeed have much more solid suspects than we've started previous days with. Obviously, if Adel is fucking with our heads with the Townie claims, things will change.

Days 1 and 2 we lynched scum. How would we be in a better position now if we lynch a townie? Adel is not helping us here if she's town.

Not sure what you're arguing here. Adel's self vote was a very poor move, yeah, I said that right after it happened - whether he's town or mafia, it was bad play.

All I'm saying is that since one of us townies is going to be night killed, this is the last chance to hear from them, and their response to Adel's quasi-reveal. If we're in a better position, it's because IMO Tajo and Zito, and to a lesser degree nadroj, have done quite a bit to out themselves in the last day. Note I started play without many suspicions of Tajo and now I'm seeing him on nearly every list.

[ElectricBadger]

Hey ya'll, take a look at muzzz tonight. I just did and it was enlightening.

Enlightening how?

[ElectricBadger]

So you're just sending everyone on a chase after a new suspect without any particular reason? After not bothering to investigate anyone but Adel all day while we were moving closer to a lynch? Seems a bit convenient, don't you think?

If you've got something, state it, at least generally. Otherwise I'm inclined to dismiss this as a feeble scum redirect, about as useful as Tajo's 'I have a bad feeling but I don't know why' BS.

[ElectricBadger]

I'll make a case tomorrow probably.

Day 1 Pyro interactions, Day 2 Ceph interactions, Day 3 Adel interactions. But I need to organize it all.

I'm glad we've been blessed with a long twilight.

"Ceph interactions"?

What about them? Everyone interacted with Ceph (if nothing else, by not speaking to him). That's about as useful as saying "Because he's playing in the game."

[ElectricBadger]

Tajo, Zito, Erik?

I found this post the most suspicious of all the ones setting up lynches.

Darkstrike hasn't been around much today, and he just jumped in with this.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm rather distressed with the lack of pressure on our lurkers.

Admittedly, I too am less inclined to push them much when we have such great suspects already.

[ElectricBadger]

I'll make a case tomorrow probably.

Day 1 Pyro interactions, Day 2 Ceph interactions, Day 3 Adel interactions. But I need to organize it all.

I'm glad we've been blessed with a long twilight.

"Ceph interactions"?

What about them? Everyone interacted with Ceph (if nothing else, by not speaking to him). That's about as useful as saying "Because he's playing in the game."

Erm...I think I misinterpreted this as claiming that was a reason. *Attempts to remove foot from mouth* So just pretend that was directed just at Zito.

[ElectricBadger]

You seem hung up on this. Let me help you with the sequence of events.

1. I read the thread through, then every player in iso, while the thread was locked.
2. Based on my read, I came up with three suspects: Adel, Emp and Simenon.
3. Once the thread opened, I posted my list in public.
4. I spent a lot of time organizing my Adel notes and backing data.
5. I post my case to the thread.

There's nothing "convenient" here. A ton of people put pressure on Adel during the day, and he reacted extremely badly to it. Nothing I saw during the day contradicted my read or my case, so I saw no reason to move my vote.

I am hung up on it, yes, because it's scummy as hell.

Yes, people put pressure on Adel, and he was acting all sorts of scummy so I remain unshocked by it (secret alt plan, indeed). HOWEVER, you put a huge amount of work into posting against Adel, and then...nothing. You never examined anyone else. You never questioned your bandwagon. You entered with a target, you pushed to get them lynched, and now that's done you have a new one but no reasoning - and you're STILL not questioning why others pushed so hard to lynch a (probable?) townie. That's not a townie investigating everyone to find out who's guilty, that's mafia trying to set up mislynches.

Vote Zito

Pfft.

[ElectricBadger]

I pushed? I made a case. Making a case isn't scummy.

...

Your problem is that you decided I was scum when I walked in the door and you refuse to examine anything I say in any other light. That's unfortunate.

You didn't make a case. You were a hung jury. You knew who you were after and you took care of it. You didn't care about future suspects or reasons to clear townies, let alone why others might want the guy dead. That's mafia: that's having a target, hoping for any bandwagoning you can get, and knowing the next lynch is whoever's convenient.

Nor was this some trap or garbage like that. I've done everything I could to prod you to look at other possibilities, and you haven't even done that much. You just clearly don't care about scum hunting.

And yeah, you started play with Guilty written all over ya. Problem is, you keep getting scummier, not townier.

[ElectricBadger]

/Agree with elvis to a disturbing degree.

I don't think Adel would have been lynched without Tajo's singleminded efforts, and I think he's active, clever and forceful enough to try to get himself off and try to lead another mislynch. I think he's the most dangerous to town generally, because of that, and we should get rid of him soonest. He's also been on every non-mafia lynch and avoided the pyro lynch.

However, I think Zito is very scummy and I think his reveal will help towards simplifying scumhunting with nadroj, since the main scummy thing about him imo is stef's lengthy D1 disproving the whole scum tell shenanigan.

Zito/Spolium has just been scummy all along: the D1 wierdness (not just the self vote), the lurking, and the OMGUS overkill against Adel without any other investigation/questioning. I'm content with him today, or at the very least finding out what he's got to say under pressure.

Vote Zito.

But don't be surprised if I jump bandwagons to Tajo later without much more reasoning than "it seems a good time to add some momentum."

Some questions coming later tonight; work is a bit busy for a full effort atm.

[ElectricBadger]

Hey ya'll, take a look at muzzz tonight. I just did and it was enlightening.

No longer much need to explain this suspicion - although it might help things look a bit better. As I see it, after some scummy interactions on D1 spolium went into lurk mode, then on D3 Zito bursts out with a huge post on Adel, not mentioning anyone else, and finishes with a vague FoS on Muzz just before he's killed. That's 2/2 attacks on townies, and 0 effort on anyone else.

So really, you just tunneled on Adel with awesome ferocity.

So, to repeat (yet again) what I've been asking zito: do you have anything to say about anyone else? What have your investigations elsewhere shown you? Why didn't you question your bandwagon or look into other options yesterday, instead of fixating on a townie?

From 1045:

It's decided, then.

Zito, Erik, Tajo.

I don't think muzz had let zito off at all, irregardless of other targets, since he was first on the man's list.

BTW, this is the list we should use for the next three lynchings, as I suspect it's the list that got muzz killed (particularly the inclusion of Erik).

I'm not sure about muzz's investigations. I'm inclined to think Erik was one of them, since muzz stuck on him hard, and ended with his vote there. I think he did two of those three (adel, zito and erik). I need to investigate this a bit more. I'm not leaning toward Erik's lynch today because I think we have other, even better suspects and Erik is the only one that I'd really like some more time to watch.

My main suspect is Adel. I know I'm going to get called out for bandwagoning on this, but a lot of his D1 antics I found to be scummy, and he hasn't done anything to change my opinion of him recently.

Wow...lots here for such a short post, followed by almost nothing else. First, you jumped on a bandwagon on a townie without any particular reason and knowing it wouldn't look good? Why? What was the purpose of this - especially since you didn't actually add your vote, just your voice. If you truly believed what you were saying, why didn't you vote here or later? If you weren't sure enough to vote, why didn't you ask questions and investigate either Adel or others? The only reason I can think of to explain this behavior is to support a mislynch while keeping your name off the vote list (the very list elvis notes we should pick our targets off of).

Why did you ask for a 'summary' of the previous days - did you just know that you didn't really need to scum hunt?

I might be able to excuse your lurking as limited interest in the game, periodic access, etc, but there's a huge red flag: since your post v. Adel on the 28th - presumably a point at which you'd read the game and were fully capable of participating in it - and the 2nd at 2:00 pm, when the thread was locked with Adel's lynch, you posted 3 times, for a total of 4 sentences, and nothing after the 29th - and no substance at all. During the same period, though, you posted 19 times in other threads - 15 of those after the 29th, multiple posts each day, even the last morning. That indicates to me that your lurking is intentional, not incidental, and the only team that intentional lurking supports is mafia. So - why didn't you bother to post here at all? Are you intentionally lurking, or are you just not really that interested in playing this game?

I'm not even sure what to say about Tajo. I've spent my breath already, now 4/4 dead townies have fingered him, he's voted for every dead non-mafia and didn't vote for pyro (if he truly only votes for people he's absolutely sure are mafia, he's really bad at it). On D3 three of us particularly opposed Tajo: Adel, muzz and I - and two of those (the most effective, I think) are dead. And of course, the host of other indicators I've already mentioned before.

[ElectricBadger]

Interesting.

This is an update list from my previous scumlist.

Prob town

inhim
achilles
elvis
zazi
empking
nadroj15

Neutral

erik
simenon

Prob scum

zito = but not scum with badger
electric badger = but not scum with zito
darkstrike
duckduck

So of our cop's final list of three, one is a 50/50 v. me, one is neutral, and one is Tajo. The defense for this is what, muzz was a lousy cop?

Blaming the big pushers of the Adel hate is something expected but its not very logic since Adel was scummy as fuck.

I don't blame the pushers; Tajo was hardly the first or only voice to accuse Adel, and there are those on his wagon that I don't suspect much at all. Adel did have scummy about him. However, certain individuals clearly had his lynching as a goal, while others appeared to be examining the evidence of

multiple suspects

and reaching a logical conclusion. It's not as much Tajo's tenacity in lynching Adel as his complete refusal to question anyone else or consider other evidence, and particularly the absolute crap logic Tajo kept spewing out.

In fact, I am more suspicious of the people defending him when there was nothing to defend.

Except for the part where he was

INNOCENT

. So um, in a moment of shameless hubris: apparently I was right on.

I think you're [Adel] an experienced player that wouldn't pull BS like having a super secret plan with alts when you were trying to be one of the crowd. I think you'd launch some attacks and investigations, maybe a trap or two, yes, but not all the oddity you have been so far. My gut says that's more indicative of a vet townie who thinks he's five times more clever than the rest of us.

Argue that up all you want. Or are you honestly implying that being right about a mislynch makes me scummy? I won't claim that it gets me off - scum would be almost as likely to help a townie to cover themselves - but

being correct in our analysis is the point of this game

. Saying it's a scum tell is just stupid, and is the exact sort of backwards logic that keeps a Mafia sign blinking over Tajo's head.

Also, in the spirit of full honesty, the only way the 'secret alt plan' BS made sense to me was if Adel was in a power role, putting a bit of obvious scum on himself D1 to avoid a night kill while he did his work. So really, I was completely wrong, too. Go figure.

Specially the people that in twilight was already setting lynches. (hint: badger and darkstrke)

Except this allowed our cop to post a list of his top suspects just before he was night killed, which was the primary reason I did it. I don't think any of us have any delusions that the twilight talk was going to avoid any D4 discussion. As I explained then:

Well, it's our last chance to hear from one of our townies, so I'd say it's actually an excellent time to put forward final opinions and lists.

As with every other phase of this game, stifling discussion is scummy. So why are you so eager to do so?

Other suspects maintain : darkstrike and duckduck. I really wish more pressure is added to these guys. Specially darkstrike and his last post of yesterday where he joins the "setting lynches in twilight" group.

Bandwagoning on the only one other than Zito that's been voted. I'd really like to say that wasn't expected. Not sure if this implies dark is town, or if Tajo is laying groundwork for future plausible deniability. I suspect the main purpose is simply to split the wagon to give time to arrange another mislynch.

Other changes are;
erik in the neutral section. Muzz could also have investigated him since the late vote yesterday is indeed something to notice. The only thing I had that made him prob town was his Pyro defense at L1. Apart that he hasnt done anything that makes me think he is prob town.

Ah, one of the cop's top 2 makes it all the way up to neutral. Bold. This line alone triples my suspicion on Erik, who has edged out nadroj as a favorite.

So right now Im in a shitty position. The Zito wagon is growing and it has its merits but I really, I really hate the way badger is playing the game. His blind defense of scummy Adel is more suspicious, IMO, than the attack Zito launched against scummy Adel for obvious reasons.

Tajo continues to blur 'attacking tajo and wagon's fuzzy logic' with 'defending Adel'. But okie dokie, we can play the blind defense game, and I'll win. Tell you what, tajo, if you post every statement you can find where you questioned/doubted/interrogated nadroj and zito, I'll post every time Adel and I went at it (you know, that stuff you kept dismissing as 'distancing from a scumbuddy').

As a preface for your research on your aggressive interrogation of your bandwagon, though:

However, I must admit that the only reason why I thought Zito was prob town was because of his adel hate, very similiar to mine. Now that Adel is dead and town, my reason to think Zito is town has faded away. At this point he could be indeed town going for scummy Adel, or scum going for scummy Adel.

Because obviously anyone trying to lynch the guy you're after MUST be a townie - mafia wouldn't try to influence something as sacred as that! If only someone had tried to make tajo examine his bandwagon while Adel was still alive, he might be able to tell whether zito is scum or not....

Despite Tajo's penchant for demanding itemized, detailed scum lists anytime he's backpedaling, he hasn't commented on that [zito and nadroj's lack of lists] at all. Why investigate people when they're agreeing with you, right? Except, oh wait, you certainly expect me to.

They just dont simply agree with me in seeing what I see. Thats just a bonus. As I said, I have a neutral slightly town read on stef/nadroj. I have a neutral read on spolium and zitos first post doesnt feel fabricated. Why waste time in people I think are more likely to be town than scum?

So what I think Tajo said in these last posts is that 1) he didn't investigate zito at all solely because zito was agreeing with him (the "only reason" for that townie feel that accompanies the agreement), and 2) even if I hadn't investigated Adel, it'd be okay because I had a (correct) townie feel.

Awkward.

Especially with that vote Adel put against me for being Tajo's scumbuddy. Almost as if I weren't blindly supporting him at all.

Interesting to notice is that now that Emp isnt in the hot seat anymore his suspicions of him have vanished.

empking in the prob town section for reasons previosuly stablished.

This 'interesting to note...' BS - stating a fact without really saying anything about it - makes it hard to determine if tajo is trying to accuse me of something or redirect to Empking, but either way I'd really love to hear his explanation of what's so interesting.

Also, I think its strange no one found this about him, a possible crumb from muzz.

Vote: Papa Zito
About the only thing I like about him so far is his opinion on self-voting. The rest made my skin crawl.
But I'm not liking Badger much either. His professed reason for unvoting is absolutely awful. Just like his pro-active WIFOM defense.

Badger is scum, but we really should lynch Zito first. That guy hasn't made a decent post yet. He's actually worse than Spolium was.

Which is strange because badger just replaced that day and hadnt said much (it was like page 2 of day 3). The level of confidence muzz is sharing early its something to notice.

As is the fact I'm not on any of his lists or accusations at the end of the day. Which, if I were the subject of a guilty investigation, would be a pretty sizable oversight, don't you think? Nor do I think it likely that super-lurker Infection warranted an investigation. And if I'm mafia, then it's probable that nadroj AND zito AND tajo are all innocent, which alone is a pretty tall order imo. And FINALLY, based on tajo's own statement that only one of Zito or I could be mafia, then you may want to pay attention to who muzz was VOTING FOR in the very quote tajo brought up. Curious what one misses when one is just looking for clips to throw at me rather than using reasonable deduction, isn't it?

Tajo persists in vague implications that sow doubt but don't actually have basis, keeping on it until people start to agree simply because that's all they're reading. This sort of garbage spam attack is the exact reason I think he's the most dangerous mafia in the game.

Also, interested to find out what do you think of darkstrike. Why do you think Erik is the less scummier of the "Tajo, Zito, Erik" group?

Darkstrike never stood out to me as particularly scum; I'm planning to review, but waiting for a solid case to be made against him so I can see if it holds up, if I missed anything. At the moment the things I hear - like posting a twilight scum list, tajo's main reason - are vague, coincidental or garbage. Tajo's effort to start a bandwagon on him reads to me like flailing, though, so I'm inclined to go with a better suspect and keep an eye out.

Erik, like darkstrike, was a bit of a lurker and for the same reason never really stood out during my first analysis. His voting pattern is suspicious and his unvote of pyro while throwing out a garbage and unbased defense was horrible, but in a way the action feels like too obvious a scumtell at too horrible a time for one, right before a mafia is revealed (as it seemed fairly clear would happen). My suspicions on Erik have risen dramatically lately, however, with muzz's hard push for him, final vote and list (which are direct enough, out of the norm enough, and sure enough that I'm inclined to think they are the result of an investigation - maybe sparked by the sudden retraction of dingo's vote), and with Erik's horrible responses in 984:

Neatly reciting all accepted reasons actually would've been better than randomly picking the worst one. I think you know that.

I've been called scummy for doing just that before, on the grounds of not providing any additional information.

Erik - why the low level of questions/posting? How do you see this helping town?

I don't see it helping town, honestly. I'll answer the first question in twilight if I'm lynched (or endgame or something if I'm not), but I'll tell you it doesn't relate to my role.

At this point he's less scummy simply because he's posted less to judge by, thus my reasoning that I'd like to see more before moving ahead with him. If I didn't have very good reads on Tajo and Zito, and some of one on nadroj, I would pursue Erik now. Additionally, I think Erik is the least adept at fuzzy/misleading logic so I don't consider him very dangerous to a town win.

[ElectricBadger]

Also, some people have been trying to guess who muzzz investigated. Is this normal procedure? would a cop leave breadcrumbs that obviously?

Hopefully, otherwise he wasn't much help as a cop. I haven't played this game a ton, but I believe the ideal is for a cop to investigate all the mafia, post the list and probably get night killed for being so dead on, and so be proven in his role and his investigations revealed.

[ElectricBadger]

Can you name which others appeared to be examining the evidence of multiple suspects?

What, you want me to quote the whole of D3's conversations? Statistical analysis and pie charts? You're always so eager to assign others to prove your points. It's very annoying. I singled you, nadroj and zito out yesterday for tunneling; if you see anyone else who did so, speak up.

You do know that if you are scum you would know he was innocent, right?

This is the point you have to analyse. Why so many people thought Adel was scum and you and darkstrike thought he was town for the too scummy to be scum argument? Do you think we can find scum there also?

Yes, I do understand how the game works, kthx. And again with the weird logic that being right about a mislynch is a scum tell. It doesn't prove me town, no - but you do realize that suspecting anyone who shows a good insight isn't a good way to go about the game, right?

Your too scummy to be scum defense is a fallacy. It reeks of scum knowing that Adel would already come up town and start setting mislynches in people that attacked her.

You well know I never claimed that. Actually, I claimed that YOU were too scummy for Adel to be scum. The 'power role' idea was just something that led ME to consider alternative interpretations.

So for some magical reason, you already knew muzz was the cop. Good to know who caught the breadcrumb.

Um, no - I knew we had a cop, and that if everyone posted his would be in there for later reference. Obviously. Your weird attempts to twist things grow scummier.

This 'interesting to note...' BS - stating a fact without really saying anything about it - makes it hard to determine if tajo is trying to accuse me of something or redirect to Empking, but either way I'd really love to hear his explanation of what's so interesting.

What happened to your Empking hate? Maybe now that he isnt in a bandwagon, he isnt scum anymore?

You're coming back to this silliness again, after the whole 50/50 isn't worth a pressure vote discussion? Yeah, I was the first to bail on an easy bandwagon on a probable townie. He was never an ideal suspect, I found better, and elvis' findings proved Empking's towniness pretty well. This proves what, exactly?

Im paying attention to the Zito possible investigation. Thats why he is my prob scum list, next to you but not scum with you and viceversa. Pay attention.

So I'm sure you have something new to add to that discussion, maybe some questions for him? More than two lines of vague suspicion followed by an excuse that his effort to lynch was perfectly understandable?

Can you iso him [darkstrike] and tell me what do you think of him? I think you can make a good case reading him.

Again with the homework assignments, teach. I explain that I'm missing his scum tells, and you think I'm the one to go find them? wtf?

So you think that Erik is the less suspicious of the Tajo, Zito, Erik group? Is there any reason other than "OMG, big pushers of someone that was inherently scummy HAVE to be scum, gg"?

OMG, did you even read my post, gg? Erik hasn't said as much as you or Zito, has therefore given less to suspect him on, and I'd like to hear more from him to assert scumminess, identify scumbuddies and clear townies. I don't think your long accusatory ramblings or Zito's trite numbered points have as much left to reveal.

Re: your post about darkstrike, the only thing I'm seeing is that he thought Adel was scummy (no surprise, we all did) and then formed what was proven to be a perfectly accurate assessment of Adel. Again with the 'being right is a scumtell' nonsense. Like me, it doesn't get dark off but I don't feel it implicates him either. Next evidence?

And why are you focusing so hard on the players who didn't help at all with the mislynch? Do you think mafia would for some reason all be uninvolved?

[ElectricBadger]

I think darkstrike is scummy too. My top scum picks are: zito, you, darkstrike.

Since Tajo isn't saying much, could you sum up your points against darkstrike, elvis?

Your recent back and forth with badger is a boring flame war.

Yes. Backing off a bit to let things cool and stop spamming the investigation. My bad.

[ElectricBadger]

Thank you, elvis. Following your leads, and the first bit of curiosness:

Dark was on the Achilles wagon, then switched to Pyro when the wagons were about equal. Then on the 6th:

vote:Darkstrike_11

I'm more interested in identifying mafia players than lynching a SK right now.

And Poof - nothing more until 616 on the 15th, when he FoS's Adel and votes Cephrir.

However, between these dates he posts 21 times in other threads, making at least a post on all but two days. This did encompass N1, but still a marked trend.

And the rest of his posting record is similar: consistently more posting in other games than this one.

Following the easy trend (including reasons for votes), intentional lurking, and lack of scumhunting are reading very scum. Dark, could you please explain your silence? Why are you not participating?

Will pursue some more investigation into content tonight.

[ElectricBadger]

Well, this seems to be going down hill.

Zito, you still playin' the game, man? Or checked out?

[ElectricBadger]

Mmhmm.

And the smart, nice guys get the girls. And trying hard is what matters, not whether you win. And whatever else gets you through the day *Smiles*

[ElectricBadger]

That took me less than two minutes. Tsk tsk.

He still owes us a huge post of notes, it seems. Or any sort of content, really.

Very true, but so do you, Red: only two posts today, and the last was just a predictable query.

What's your take on the current situation? Who are your suspects? Why do you think muzz was targeted as the night kill?

[ElectricBadger]

I don't like Zito's call to "smoke the lurkers out." Smells like misdirection.

Yes; although I do agree that our lurkers need to un-lurk right quick. I think we have enough suspects for the moment, though, and then can start down the quiet list.

I'm sticking with the vote because of it, but will gladly move my vote to Erik with great prejudice if we get the support.

muzz's insistence on D3 is weighing very heavily with me atm; I'm forming an opinion now that he investigated zito and erik, and a guilty read on zito lead to his avoiding the Adel wagon rather than a separate investigation. Confirming that atm. I'm also reconsidering the last minute unvote/defense of pyro. It used to feel too obvious, but it might be the exact sort of knee jerk move of a goon pulled into a game just as his buddy is on the block - he'd feel he had to try to do SOMETHING, I think.

What're the main reasons for your take on him?

[ElectricBadger]

Badger: You're lying, and I can't believe everyone else is going along with it. I unvoted

Achilles

, not Pyro. Quit trying to manipulate us.

Correct; you unvoted Achilles. Diving off a townie bandwagon right before a hammer is suspicious to me, especially when coupled with the defense of the goon going down. You knew enough to see that Pyro was L-1, so you must have seen the competing wagon dingo was on, and even without reading through it's logical to conclude the wagons were probably competing and being on the wrong one would be a bad thing. It's not a huge tell, imo, but it was a very odd moment, and as I said, seems like a new-join-goon knee jerk reaction.

Does that explain my statement better?

[ElectricBadger]

Oh - and the fact that since Achilles was no longer at all close to being lynched, having your vote on him only served to place pressure, not to threaten a kill, and so was pro-town if anything and leaves me unsure why you felt the need to withdraw it immediately.

[ElectricBadger]

Analyzed muzz in depth looking for crumbs, and I think I found some.

I believe muzz investigated Spolium/Zito on N1, and Erik on N2. I think both returned guilty verdicts.

It's -possible- these were instead Adel on N1 and/or Empking on N2, but both seem unlikely to me, especially Empking.

First, since N1 muzz only cast 3 votes: Cephrir would have shown innocent, so muzz's early join of the bandwagon leans heavily against his being investigated at all; no one seems to have observed much in the way of SK specific tells, and muzz made no mention of them. The other two votes were both on D3, for Zito then Erik.

On D1, a couple telling remarks emerge from muzz:

In 112,

I'm keeping my vote on Darkstrike. So far I'm liking Adel's position much better than the attacks on her (furies count as female, right?).

And because it's Darkstrike + Spolium, again.

And in 164,

I agree with Adel that self-voting is a valid reason to vote someone. I probably wouldn't have used the word "universal" like she did, but I don't really mind it either. The attacks on her seem to center around her choice of words, rather than on whether or not self-voting is worth attacking. This makes me wonder if all of the people attacking her really do disagree. It's not a definite scumtell, but I'm wondering if there are some who just

want

to disagree with Adel.

Also, I don't like how I'm constantly seeing Spolium and Darkstrike on the same side of arguments. My gut is telling me that they (and to a lesser extent Cephrir) are connected.

And finally 172,

Re. Spolium's self-vote: I'm leaning towards scummy, due to the fact that he didn't unvote until the Cephrir wagon started.

muzz clearly percieved a spolium/darkstrike link, possibly with Cephrir, in conflict with Adel. He also clearly saw spolium as more scummy.

Because spolium and Adel were at odds, there was no need for an investigation into each, as has been suggested: determining that one was scum would imply the other is a confirmed townie. Finding scum is better than finding town, muzz prefered spolium as scum, so that's who he would have investigated.

This explains his later defense/complete lack of attacks against Adel, and the association of Cephrir would also explain why he joined that bandwagon early and stuck with it.

D2 muzz doesn't produce any particular accusations. Possibly hanging back, possibly simply nothing to build on with Spolium lurking/going awol. He posts and produces lots of questions, a few remarks at bad posts, but nothing major. Joins the Cephrir wagon early, but doesn't add too much.

What does stand out are the continued defenses of Adel.

in 563,

Hah, this is absolutely priceless!

Re. Simenon vs. Adel - Well planned traps are good. But "well planned" doesn't necessarily equate with "subtle". And you don't spring a good trap before it has had a chance to work.

In 688,

Even if I was trying to flatter Adel, I don't think she currently counts as influential. It actually seems like I'm the only one who doesn't disagree with her.

And in 764 Re: Adel’s early hammer

The fact that two of you asked doesn't mean he was gonna do it.

I think it's telling that muzz spends three posts defending Adel, even for the fairly unpopular early hammer. He doesn't spend any posts investigating Adel, either. Ironic, in retrospect, that I was labelled the blind defender.

It's possible that muzz instead investigated Adel, although spending an investigation on a probable townie (as muzz implied he was on D1) doesn't make much sense, nor do I feel it would fully explain his persistence on Zito on D3.

muzz doesn't FoS anyone in particular D2. Empking emerges as an obvious target at the end, and could have been an investigation, but I don't think that explains muzz's accusations of Erik on D3; it also doesn't seem like a good use of an investigation to target a player that will be obviously be under the microscope on the next day.

I'm not sure entirely why muzz preferred Erik on N2; probably it was a 'best of mediocre choices' situation. He was scummy, but couldn't be tied well to Spolium.

The reasons muzz gave when voting Erik, and that might inspire an investigation, in 966:

Unvote, vote: Erik
He was the only person not voting when Pyro was lynched. He has some interactions with and about Adel on D2, but never calls her scummy. At the start of D3 he suddenly suggests we should lynch her after Emp. Then votes her with a craptastic, misrepresenting, WIFOM-based reason. After which he neatly recites all the accepted reasons to vote Adel.

I think that makes him scummier than Zito.

The last line there sounds to me like a big crumb.

I think the pyro defense and the Adel D2 interactions were enough to clue him in, and like a good cop he went after the fringe scum suspects, who had enough to FoS but not enough to lynch.

muzz's vote pattern on D3 seems abnormal enough to interpret as a message. He voted Zito when the Empking wagon was still viable, before elvis posted the vote tell, but remarkably doesn't post a single word to address the Emp situation. I can't imagine that if he'd received an innocent investigation on Emp he wouldn't have taken some action to blunt that bandwagon; he wouldn't have just ignored it and let it build. For this reason, I don't think he ever investigated Emp. Instead, his first 2 posts of D3 list Zito as the best target.

He also addresses Zito and Tajo in 925, re: being lynched by Adel:

And you deserve it, too. I suspect that both of you are just going for what you perceive to be the easy lynch.

He sticks with that vote through the count on 958, where it's long since stopped being a bandwagon:

(6) Adel (populartajo, Papa Zito, Achilles, Empking's Alt, ErikTheRed, elvis_knits)
(3) populartajo (Adel, ElectricBadger, Simenon)
(1) Papa Zito (muzzz)

(5) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, ZazieR, Darkstrike_11, inHimshallibe)

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch!

Then in 966 switches to Erik, rather out of the blue, ducking both bandwagons. I think this is a particularly interesting move, because while there are some good reasons to suspect Erik, I don't think muzzz explains them all that well, except for the D3 Adel vote, and doesn't refer to the pyro defense at all (just the lack of a vote). His posts after that are almost entirely attacks on Erik until after the hammer, when he returns to pushing very hard for zito as well but still starts with Erik as a preferred target to someone he must have a read on by this point, and not just an incidental suspect:

In 1035:

Erik, Zito, Nadro. If we haven't won by then, we can look at Tajo.

In 1042:

Let's compromise.

Erik, Zito, Tajo, Nadro.

In 1045:

It's decided, then.

Zito, Erik, Tajo.

Erik and Zito remain the first two on every list. And then muzzz again clearly implies Zito is scum, and should be the next lynch:

In 1048, to Zito:

Yeah, gloat some more. It'll make it easier to lynch you tomorrow.

In 1050, also to Zito:

You're just trying to look like you didn't already know what Adel's flipping. Just look at 1025.

[ElectricBadger]

It is quite common for a player to unvote when replacing into a game. I don't find it odd, and I don't think it indicates anything. I have felt erik has had some odd moments, but this is not one of them.

Fair 'nuff. I wouldn't think much of it either without the quirky pyro defense.

For instance, the way he voted Adel, citing my confused WIFOM ramblings as his reason was pretty scummy.

Yes. And I don't believe it was ever corrected; he only mentioned he had already suspected Adel, but nothing specific. Erik, care to lay out the reasons for your vote?

And all the absentees are definitely an issue. With 5 mostly gone, it's going to pretty much take a unanimous vote to lynch anyone.

My list:

Prob Scum:
Zito (muzz's certainty, spolium silliness, tunneling)
Erik (pyro defense, Adel vote, muzz's certainty, voting pattern)
Tajo (voting pattern, faulty/anti-town logic, tunneling, FoS of dead)

FoS:
nadroj (D1 stef posts, attack/no vote on Adel)
darkstrike (some scummy actions, not as sold on them yet though)

Neutral/lean town:
duckduck (haven't heard much, Tajo's accusations lean town though)
sim (lean townie from tone of posts, but not confident of my read yet)
Zazier (D1 interactions lean townie, but not certain of it)

Pretty Damn Sure They're Townies:
elvis (tone, empking proof/blocking an easy lynch)
inhim (tone, pyro interactions)
achilles (pyro interaction)
empking (elvis' proof)

elvis, would you mind sharing your take on Tajo, and why? While I'm confident you're town, I have to admit after the flirting episode that I'm a bit concerned you're not objective on the subject. Or, perhaps there are reasons for towniness that I'm dismissing too readily.

[ElectricBadger]

elvis (tone, empking proof/blocking an easy lynch)

Yeah, badger, give Elvis all the fucking credit. x2

This is like the second time you give Elvis the credit for doing something I also did, and even first.

Good job with the double standards.

Calm down, bro. Just a game.

You jumped the Empking wagon to help darkstrike with a new one against a townie who was the other easy lynch. Adel'd just accused a prob scum (zito), and you gave no other reason for why you shifted your vote at that moment. Your reasoning on emp was vague, that he was just distraction; but you didn't post any proof for that, just the unbased implication against Adel, a tactic I see you use a lot. Assuming emp was a townie at that point was actually kind of suspicious. Your whole post reeks of protecting a scumbuddy. The only thing in your favor was leaving the bandwagon first, but you spent the Achilles wagon on Cephrir so that may just be a pattern for your play.

When elvis jumped, she posted a logical argument re: votes, and that's what I saw really kill the emp wagon and transform him from a high profile suspect to a prob townie. She moved her vote to me for a clear and logical reason. Later, she again countered a player (forget who - inhim?) with a more thorough description. Scum wouldn't gain by clearing an easy mislynch.

So why do you feel you deserve the credit?

Also, why exactly are you not sold yet on darkstrike case? Did you iso him?

Just not as convinced by the proofs. An opinion thing. I see 3 much better candidates for scum, for reasons I've posted fairly in depth. If we were looking for 4 mafia, I'd be more inclined. If one of my top 3 flips town, I'll also be more inclined.

[ElectricBadger]

It was not an easy lynch when I started it. Fail.

So Adel-scum wasn't all that obvious when you started your blind push to lynch him? Noted. IMO, other than my attacking your bandwagon to provide periodic distractions and a couple posts by muzzz it was a complete railroad.

Also interesting to notice that your scumlist contains three pushers of the Adel wagon (Tajo, Zito, Erik) while you ignore darkstrike who also was a Adel heavy attacker since day 1 and somehow managed to realize Adel was town when the pressure became to grow. However, your suspicions of him just dont fly. Double standard much?

I really don't know what you're saying here. Again with the vague insinuations - 'it's interesting'. If you have something, say it, because I personally think it's rather boring. My suspicions with him don't fly? I have no idea what that even means. His bailing from the mob was quirky? Yes. Point? It's not like I'm calling him a townie. If you want me to be more suspicious of darkstrike, spend your time posting about him.

Because I did the same thing that Elvis did. It doesnt surprise me you didnt notice it. It didnt surprise when you gave Elvis all the credit for presenting a case against darkstrike, especially when I had a case before based in voting patterns and his strange switch in Adel.

I'm unsure why you're so desperate for approval from me. What is your purpose? Do you want me to be more suspicious of elvis? If so, make a case against her. Less suspicious of you? I haven't based much/any of my suspicions of you on the empking thing until you brought it up.

As with many of your actions, I don't understand why a townie would do what you're doing. This is all a non-issue and looks like a flailing distraction - you just want me to look wrong about something, anything, to discredit me, since you're not doing well against my attacks on your scumbuddies.

Back. Going to read through again and get a post in soon.

Yes, please. I'd very much like to see your scum list and hear your take on our suspects.

[ElectricBadger]

However, I must admit that the only reason why I thought Zito was prob town was because of his adel hate, very similiar to mine. Now that Adel is dead and town, my reason to think Zito is town has faded away. At this point he could be indeed town going for scummy Adel, or scum going for scummy Adel.

Also this, and why your investigation of zito is limited to a couple short posts about Zazier. For having no reason to think he's town, and our providing many to think otherwise, I'm surprised at your lack of interest, nothing close to what you continue to show spamming against me. Mind explaining?

[ElectricBadger]

The Darkstrike case:

etc.

This strongly implies that darkstrike and badger are scum together.

Um...the fact I don't agree with you means I'm scum? Because we all saw how well that worked out yesterday.

And you seem to be strangely insisting that I'm not suspicious of dark. I find that confusing. There are three scum, I put my three most suspicious targets as scum, he wasn't among them. My OPINION is that the evidence against those three is more than that against Dark. As I've stated previously, repeatedly, if you have more evidence, or if one of my top 3 flips town, I'll revise my opinion of Dark.

In any case, I believe we have 5 lynches left. That's my list +dark +nadroj. If he is scum, my take isn't going to let him get away.

So please explain how having my own opinion makes me scum.

The Empking case:

etc.

I think you're trying to argue that there's no more evidence against you than against elvis. I laugh at this. I have posted many bits of it, and haven't seen much posted v. elvis. If you think I'm missing something, post it. If you think my evidence against you is wrong, address it. Whining that I'm being unfair is weird, when you have clearly not done the same things elvis has.

[ElectricBadger]

And in case it's not clear on my list, FoS = Finger of Suspicion = I think they're acting really scummy but not convinced they're scum yet.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote: Darkstrike

- Thought I was already.

Explain? And your take on Zito?

Duckduck, still looking forward to a response....

Seriously we need moar papa zito votes.

Need more voters posting...not enough to get a lynch even if we all agreed on the target.

[ElectricBadger]

Yup. I'm still keeping up, honestly though I think Zito is making a better case against himself than I could at this point. And alas, not enough people are active here for it to really matter. Look forward to our missing people coming back or being replaced.

[ElectricBadger]

I believe muzz investigated Zito N1

Why don't you think muzz even mentioned Spolium on day 2?

I'm not 100% sure. I would guess because bringing out investigation results on day 1 could have highlighted him for a lynch, and no one else brought up spo, and spo was lurking/awol.

However, he didn't really accuse anyone D2 until Cephrir, who obviously wasn't the target of an investigation.

So D2 doesn't have much proof any way. His surety on D3 is telling though.

[ElectricBadger]

You asked a question, I answered. Achilles is welcome to provide his own reasoning, of course.

After all the accusations D1, why do YOU think he didn't mention spolium on D2, Zito?

I think post 1170 explains my reasoning of muzzz's investigations ad nauseum.

[ElectricBadger]

Thank you skitzer, and welcome JamesBond!

[ElectricBadger]

It was sort of a "trap" on my part. Most of the town agrees that I'm a townie, and I wanted to see who would blindly defend my opinion. Like you correctly pointed out, muzz made little mention of Spolium on day 2. He was, however, very adamant against you on day 3.

Actually, you cited my opinion in your first post, so saying I was blindly defending you is a bit odd. Since you used 1170 as your entire reasoning for voting Zito, it seemed logical for me to defend my own analysis - not you.

Although defending prob town v. flailing obv scum isn't particularly scummy, imo. As later mentioned:

Zito trying to pull down Achilles is almost as bad as what he was doing to TRS/Zazie.

Also:

FFS, not more traps.

/agree

I'm confused by the logic of your trap. Why would EB-scum defend my reasoning against Zito's flailing where EB-townie wouldn't? A trap requires predictable and different reactions. Also, what exactly was your trap? Not bothering to post in a grindingly slow game and seeing if anyone else would take up the slack to get things moving in the vain hope of eventually finishing this? Your trap sucks, which seems a theme in this game.

ElectricBadger in 1170 made the most sense IMO. muzzz was consistently on Papa Zito and ErikTheRed's case. I recollect that I found his argument for voting Erik not very convincing compared to what was put up against Adel, but now I can see why. I believe muzz investigated Zito N1 and Erik N2, and was trying to sway the town one way, but there were just other scummier people.

Although I believe Zito and Erik are both scum, Zito is more active and that could be more of a distraction factor for the town, so I will go ahead and

vote Papa Zito

There is no evidence that muzz inspected Spolium day 1 - if he had, he would have tried making at least some case for him.

Great - you lied through your teeth to accuse someone. I'm sure if we all did that, town would do gloriously.

Since you disagree with my logic, I would very much like to hear your own reasoning - the truth this time, please - behind your vote (since you felt the need to renew it). Mind you, I don't disagree with it - but your scum hunting is garbage. If you want to find mafia, ask questions and participate, don't neglect the thread and cite it as a trap. This post seems like a disinterested spurt following the general consensus.

Also, please explain who you think muzzz investigated and what crumbs he left. I'm open to other interpretations, but I can't find any evidence of investigations D2.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger and Elvis, lists please.

1179 still stands. Zito and darkstrike have both gotten a bit scummier, for flailing and intentionally not posting here, respectively, but I don't think they've changed positions on my list.

[ElectricBadger]

So this is your list? Please provide an order if this is not accurate:

Prob Scum to Prob town:
...
darkstrike
nadroj
...

I'm amused by the shift in order, but yes, you have it basically.

[ElectricBadger]

I have to admit it was pretty funny though.

[ElectricBadger]

Sorry. Home remodeling took my internet offline for a few days.

Fine, to a point, but you're slipping back into lurker mode on purpose - you've managed to join another game and post ten times in the last two days, but the one non-game-related sentence you gave here is a bit wanting. At this stage of the game I can't imagine you don't have some place to put your vote, and there are a lot of players that need to be pressured; not casting a vote anywhere feels to me like you're avoiding any confrontation or questions that might bring you out into the open. Your silence is not helping town, and it's not helping you.

PZ: WHY ARE YOU VOTING THE ONE LURKER WHO IS PROB TOWN? WHY NOT ONE OF THE OTHER LURKERS? EVEN IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME THAT ZAZIE IS TOWN, WHY DID YOU PICK HER OVER THE OTHERS? WHAT IS YOUR REASONING?

Appreciate forcing the questions - what we need to do to our lurkers - but been a while since you said anything of your own. Would love to hear your current take on Zito - are you on Dark because you're pushing for a lynch you prefer, or because you're not convinced about Zito?

Here. Though I''ll probably be to busy tomorrow to start updating the games in which I''m behind tomorrow.
So expect some content either on monday or tuesday.

Expectin'.

Hey guys, sorry I havent had time to read up yet, but there are 50 stuffed pages so pretty hard to do when im working at the same time gonna go to amsterdam for the weekend, will catch up on monday I sware.

Completely understand that it's a lot to catch up on, but I'd like to hear something from you, at least - your take so far. Also, /jealous of Amsterdam.

[ElectricBadger]

Infection

ElectricBadger

Infection didn't do anything but place a poorly defended vote on Spolium/me. So blah there.

Badger's Day 3 was pretty bad.

- He votes Emp even though his "favorite for scum" was Spolium/me.
- He also defends Adel when Adel was clearly scummy
- He then votes Tajo even though I'm still his favorite for scum, AND apparently since he "think a lynch on Zito will net us 2 mafia" with Stef.

Badger's Day 4 is equally bad. Though I refuted all his attacks (my post 29 in iso) he didn't even bother to respond to any of it, likely because he couldn't. He also didn't respond to my 51, again probably because he couldn't. He's also spent a lot of time buddying up to Elvis.

Badger is scum.

I find it more useful to pile votes to exert real pressure than leave a random vote solo, as long as there's a wagon that I like - indeed, you forgot to mention that I'm voting you today although I'd rather get rid of Tajo. Emp King wasn't my fave, but examining him carefully was a good way to start the day and I have no regrets about putting my vote on him, or moving it off, as I wasn't ready for a quick lynch, either. I do regret my crappy explanation for the latter (not that it was wrong), but *shrugs* live and learn.

Your 29 doesn't say much worth responding to, honestly. It's back and forth bickering. But I'm really bored at work, so here goes:

1. Incorrect. Spolium flaked. And not just from this game.
2. This is a lie. I started the day on Emp.
3. This is also incorrect. I also talked about Emp, Simenon and Erik. Erik at your request, in fact, and seem to have conveniently forgotten. In twilight I made mention of muzz. None of this counts the people I was watching post in thread.
4. I found it really interesting that muzzz was so noncommittal on Pyro day 1, yet went after Cephrir so hard Day 2, and then defended Adel so much Day 3. I felt it was worth looking into so I made mention of it in the thread.
5. Beyond being factually incorrect, this is spin.

1. Spolium's lurking/flaking/vanishing (use what word you like) isn't really telling, imo. This is just pointless arguing.
2 & 3. Tajo didn't feel you'd posted much, and asked:

I think Zito owes us a more detailed analysis of the game.

Your explicit response to this request was a lengthy post only on Adel. When "Analysis of the game" is limited to one player, I call it tunneling.
4. And yet never explained it, despite requests. Apparently you were very sure you'd be back the next day to state your case, which alone is curious if not telling, and honestly the only thing I see there that implies scum is the vague 'noncommittal on pyro'. And again with the bizarre not voting Adel = scum thing.
5. I don't see you launching any proofs/evidence gathering/serious investigation (aka attacks) elsewhere (I don't include myself in the count, as that 3rd attack on a townie is only a proof for me). So not false and not just spin.

1. This is spin designed to make it seem I am dodging questions.
2. Yes. One, there were way too many factual errors in the above quote. Two, there is way too much spin involved in your questioning. Three, only the cop or scum would know Adel was town, and while muzzz's flip explains his defense of Adel yesterday, nothing else explains yours
3. I firmly believed Adel to be scum, and there were plenty of people questioning the bandwagon.
4. This is yet more spin. You are attempting to cast me in the worst possible light. The fact is that nobody knew Adel was a townie and there was ample reason to be suspicious of him.

1. You Were avoiding responding, thus all my posts at the time about tunneling and blame for it now.
2. I don't see how this explains your lack of investigation elsewhere, and saying that I had no reason to explore the possibility of Adel as innocent (by virtue of Tajo as guilty) proves my point nicely.
3. I observe you've attacked both muzzz and I as being scum for doing so, proving again that you felt (and continue to feel) there was no reason to question your own bandwagon.
4. It's not spin. You tunneled on a townie, ignoring all the evidence posted on Tajo, whose guilt would have proven Adel innocent. I think you did so exactly because you did in fact Know he was town. Don't believe me: per muzzz

So really, you just tunneled on Adel with awesome ferocity.

You conveniently left off these posts that place Erik first. I think there are too many factual errors and too much spin in this post for it to be from town.

I posted his final list, which seemed logical. On those you posted you're still #2; not really sure how you're using that to disprove my "spin" that he suspected you.

Your post 51 is flailing garbage, which is why I didn't respond. If you like us to go in more circles:

You need to say this, because of your bad position on Adel yesterday.

I remain baffled as to why not lynching a townie is a bad position; perhaps you should explain that further, as it seems to be your main (and very nearly only) proof against me. The reason I saw Adel as innocent was because the pair of you were out to get him in the scummiest way ever. You guys were the proof; I stated this. If you hadn't been so scummy about it, I probably would have helped lynch Adel, too.

Your claim against me assumes your obvious towniness as a proof, which is laughable. The only way my refusal to vote against Adel has no logic is by assuming you, nadroj and Tajo are all town, and not only that but too obviously town to be mistaken as scum.

Unless you can come up with a way for Adel to have potentially been Scum with you and Tajo? 'Cause yesterday never looked anything like distancing.

[ElectricBadger]

Sigh. You're just being deliberately obtuse so you can keep attacking me. Disproving You, the Short Short version:

You and Tajo are Scum. You and Tajo launched lengthy attacks at Adel, which proved that you were not scum together. Ergo, Adel was innocent, despite his bad play.

It really is that simple. No convoluted explanations, just willingness to examine multiple suspects and evaluate which was more likely mafia. Nor is this new: in my post 18, which was the first time I moved Adel to prob. town -

With the heavy push to have Adel lynched (three whines for a quick lynch and counting) I'm having a very hard time believing that Tajo and Adel could both be scum together; the trio of stef/nadroj spolium/zito and tajo is working too much to defend each other and have done way too much scummy activity independently and together for none of them to be mafia; unless my take on Tajo, Stef and Spolium/Zito are all horribly wrong, I'm now inclined to view Adel as town with a pile of three scum pushing in desperation to get his bandwagon moving.

Do you see a flaw in that logic? What you keep labelling as my blind defense was just that same proof: investigations to affirm that you and Tajo were scum. As far as I can tell, your argument against me boils down to OMGUS.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger, I fail to understand why you think I am scum.

There are inconsistencies in your play and attacks:

a) What exactly makes me different than the rest of Adel attackers? Your reason is that I pushed hard for Adel lynch. Are you sure that me and Zito are the only players that have showed this behavior?

Yes. Do you feel there were others who pushed as hard as you did for Adel's lynch? Who were so singleminded or who made attempts to shut down other lines of investigation? Again, it's not that you lynched Adel, it's how you went about doing it.

Just one facet of your overall 'stop investigating and lynch my target' theme:
Your 60:

Guys, can we please lynch this guy already?

Your 68:

Can we please lynch Adel?

Your 70:

Really, why isnt Adel not even near to be lynched yet?

This is not the behavior of a townie who is examining other suspects. That last in particular blithely dismissed every other suspect as less valid to vote on.

b) Do you admit that Adel was acting scummy? Do you admit that there is no a single reason to call him town before his flip?

Yes, he acted scummy. I never refuted that, as you seem to keep implying. However, there was a good reason to call him prob town; see my last post. You continue to assume that Adel's behavior was indisputable proof of scum to everyone - that not agreeing with you is inconceivable, and that your towniness is unquestionable. I continue to find that strange.

c) Zito has a good point. You thought Adel was town because despite his scummy play, there were some people tunneling against him. Now, we have Zito and there are people tunneling against Zito. Why your logic doesnt work with him? Yes, because your logic makes no sense. Trying to find scum in people that attack someone who is inherently scummy is silly and scummy considering you also defended someone who didnt deserve a defense.

Who do you feel is tunneling, and why? Why are you not addressing this to them? The only curtailed investigations I've seen are those which are obviously flailing.

a)* even worse, are you sure that I didnt analyse other players and only concentrated in Adel, as you suggest as a reason to think I am scum?

Are you sure you did? Because I don't see evidence. And I've noted remarks of yours to the opposite effect: that investigating your bandwagon was a waste of time, that my so-called defense - investigating you and Zito - was scummy, etc. I believe that starting on your 2nd post you spent the first three days with your vote on just two players, both of whom were lynched, neither of whom was mafia. Things I might dismiss as coincidence individually form too much pattern for me to see as unrelated.

So far, your last two items are garbage implications without actual examples, meant to sway opinion without facts: something you do too often. If you're going to assert a point, back it up.

[ElectricBadger]

1. Scum players can drive wagons on each other. This is called bussing. It's a fairly common tactic. There's no reason Zito-scum and Tajo-scum couldn't have been bussing Adel-scum, yet you act as if this is a complete impossibility.

2. The second flaw in that logic is you for some reason make the assumption that only scum would push a bandwagon on someone, and that's just patently absurd. Mislynches require townie support to happen, and townies can drive a mislynch just as much as a scum can.

These possibilities don't fit your agenda though so you're dismissing them.

1. Ahem. No, never dismissed them, followed that pretty well actually:

Not defending you [Adel], no. I just see scummier scummy scum and dislike Zito's OMGUS redirect. Trying to decide if he's distancing from a scumbuddy or blaming a townie, actually...and whether your starter vote against him, quickly abandoned when it started to build, was just another distancing move: you could claim later that you voted against him, but it was at a time when it conveniently didn't matter.

I think a lynch on Zito will net us 2 mafia; compared to that, your scumminess is secondary and if you are mafia it would probably come out during the votes and can be dealt with better on another day.

So basically, my reasoning is that even if you are scum, 2 mafia is better than 1.

With the heavy push to have Adel lynched (three whines for a quick lynch and counting) I'm having a very hard time believing that Tajo and Adel could both be scum together.... I'm now inclined to view Adel as town with a pile of three scum pushing in desperation to get his bandwagon moving.

Tajo and Adel's behavior at that point wasn't bussing. They were going hard enough to ensure the day would end with one of them dead, which is a pretty poor move for mafia, and when other victims were brought forward they didn't shift to them (and thus give each other an out).

I'm curious, if you felt they could have just been bussing, why you never examined Tajo? Also, he stated the interaction between you and Adel was his only reason for calling you town. So I'm not the only one who felt it wasn't bussing.

2. Which would be why I'm not assuming everyone who voted Adel is scum. As I said - how many times now? - it's not that you drove a lynch on Adel, it was how you went about it and what it brought out. Besides, I had you labelled as my preferred scum in my first post, so pretending I'm only sussing you out due to your train on Adel is very weak.

[ElectricBadger]

a) Tunneling against someone you think is scum is not a scumtell. You calling it a scumtell is scummy as hell. You are even doing the same thing, which is inconsistent with your attacks against me.

Sure it is. Mafia don't need to investigate around; pursuing their fellows' scummy tells hurts them. Best to find a good potential mislynch and pursue it. Town, on the other hand, can't be sure a single gaff is a true scum tell, and have to be alert for mafia interference.

Note that if people weren't aware of their own bandwagon Achilles would have been lynched D1 rather than Pyro.

Despite your fixation on the tunneling thing, it's not my only evidence and wasn't my first. Personally I was most swayed by your assertion that one should never vote anyone who you're not positive is scum and the penchant for unsubstantiated leading remarks. The tunneling thing is your main weapon against town, though.

It's also your most hypocritical. Your main claim against me is that I'm scum because I failed to suspect Adel adequately, irregardless of my suspicions of you, but then (posted again just because it's such gold):

Tunneling against someone you think is scum is not a scumtell.

...you go on about why it was fine that you and Zito questioned each other far less despite many scummy maneuvers. According to your own logic, once I saw you as scummy there was no need to consider Adel at all. It's moments of garbage logic like this that tell me you're scum.

b) And you fail twice, because as my last post proves, I was analyzing other players yesterday and I was not only concentrated in Adel, which is why you have been suggesting without any more evidence than selective quotes. Too bad, my other suspect was you.

Your attacks against Adel I won't consider, as they're my point.

Your attacks against me started immediately after I attacked your BW, and began with your unsubstantiated 'feeling' and was followed with absurd accusations. I was a danger to your lynch, as you clearly felt since you kept labelling me as defending Adel, so I was attacked; I consider it part and parcel of your tunneling.

Responding to questions isn't particularly scum-hunty.

By your list this leaves a whopping 3 posts, all of which are prob-town tells, so are of limited help in hunting and may just be protecting scumbuddies or preventing competing bandwagons.

Overall, I find no evidence to counter my view that you were set on a lynch and felt no need to investigate elsewhere for scum.

[ElectricBadger]

Also, the feeble bussing against Zito: voting while not posting any incriminations of him, followed by a quick unvote before prodded/replacing people can catch up and add enough votes to threaten a lynch, is duly noted.

[ElectricBadger]

So the question here is, what exactly makes Zito and me scum of this group of "tunneled" scum against Adel obv town?

You do realize the tunneling thing is only one tell I've gotten from you and Zito, right? That it wasn't the first, even? That my suspicions are based on patterns, not single tells - things that add up too much to be coincidence? Your voting pattern (with the exception of a first RVS vote v. Spolium that was changed your next post, you have avoided casting a single vote on possible mafia until Day 4), the FOS of all three night kills, bits of bad logic (warning to stop an investigation, attack for a pressuring vote, implying not voting against town means scum, rushing to get a quick lynch), the continuing lack of investigation/defense of Zito and your hypocrisy with it, the routine use of leading and distractin questions or vague comments without any supporting facts...probably more I can't think of atm.

Oh, look its your "make someone else do your job" scumtell.

Narf. I was asking Adel his last thoughts in twilight so I could investigate after he left the game, not dodging a question. Good job moving it out of context, though.

And also good spin; obviously 'why do you think that thing you just said without any evidence' isn't scummily distracting, it's your 'if you don't agree with me, you need to go find evidence to support my opinion because I can't be bothered to do it myself' sort of comments that I loathe.

As for my own 'tunneling', today I've dredged up a cop proof v. Erik and Zito that I assure you took a damned long time, cited proof of intentional lurking for both Dark and Erik, and gone at you at length, which makes four people I've investigated. I would have been more than content to see that much out of you yesterday. If I seem to post the majority towards you and Zito, it's mostly because you two keep bickering minutiae ad nauseam.

[ElectricBadger]

And it seems that you indeed at some point planned to follow the elvis mislynch route.

Not surprised.

Yes, any attempt to find solid evidence against someone or investigate them is clearly intended to cause a mislynch and should be avoided - it's certainly not the entire point of the game. This is exactly the sort of backwards anti-town crap-logic that keeps signaling mafia.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger, you still havent explained these incosistencies in your logic.

I have. You may disagree, but you're now just ignoring my responses and misrepresenting - borderline Lying - about my statements. I suggest in future you use more quotes instead of 'according to you', because I'm not saying what you seem to think I'm saying.

Time, I think, to move on to more productive investigations with other players, now that a couple people are speaking up.

But hope the job thing gets better for ya. Oh, and feel free to keep on with the fail thing if you really want, I find it kinda ridiculous myself.

[ElectricBadger]

Erik, why so quiet? You aren't posting often or much. But you also just joined another game (a 4th?!) which I take as a clear indication that you consider yourself Capable of fully participating in this one, but are choosing not to. The lurking disturbs me greatly, particularly as you admit it isn't doing anything to help town.

[ElectricBadger]

Agreed on Zito-Tajo (obviously, haha). I'm having a hard time settling firmly on a third, though. Nadroj was my initial favorite, for the indirect defense thing, and I still think he fits well (a lurker-goon would explain nicely why there's not plenty of evidence for a third, which I find surprising in and of itself since the Tajo-Zito link is so evident). The self vote debate reads scummy, but I see it as slightly possible it was from a townie, maybe an attempt to scum hunt Adel (who was doing weird things at the time). I couldn't bring Nadroj out enough yesterday for a firm read, either. I'm also having a hard time explaining muzzz v. Erik as anything but an investigation; it seems too random otherwise.

I think Dark was your favorite for 3rd until now? Has something in his recent posting changed your mind?

[ElectricBadger]

Prob scum

zito = but not scum with badger
electric badger = but not scum with zito

....

Here comes the good thing. I doubt Zito and badger are scum together, so basically if one of them is scum, pretty sure the other is town.

Could you please explain this comment, Tajo? How do you know Zito and I aren't chummy scumbuddies?

Also, could you explain your unvote of Zito? Because I note you

unvote

him, not just switch your vote, so you must have dismissed him as a suspect. But the two posts - and not short ones - immediately before it make no mention of Zito, but are instead addressing me.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm going to feel like a big ass if badger is scum...

Nah, what you really need to fear is if I flip town and you're scum 'cause you "knew"....

And as to the somehow, Tajo is attacking anyone who doesn't agree with him for not seeing his logic...kinda forces a person to "defend" his victim. His methods are either a tricksy scum tactic or horrid town play, but either way not logic.

[ElectricBadger]

I think you're on the right track. The case against Zito seems like more of a sure thing to me due to muzzz interaction, but I'm as certain as I can get about Tajo, too. I've seen his interaction with Zito when a serious bandwagon was aimed at him (a quick vote/unvote and back to defense) and I don't think we'll get much more evidence from lynching Zito first.

I'm also very curious to see Dark/Tajo and Erik/Tajo interactions on a serious bandwagon to start narrowing down the Mystery #3 Goon. Dark's vote on Tajo is intriguing; if they're both scum, it's a master stroke of bussing while nicely dodging the Zito wagon. I'm really curious if he'll back it up or go to lurking/unvoting.

My fear is that we'll leave behind semi active/lurker votes (inhim and achilles) and spend a lot (more) of the day just waiting for people to post. Can always switch back to Zito if newcomers/prodded people aren't convinced, though.

Actually...I think this is worth doing even if just to investigate; more useful than sitting like lumps on Zito waiting for replacements.

Unvote Zito, Vote Popular Tajo

[ElectricBadger]

Could you please explain this comment, Tajo? How do you know Zito and I aren't chummy scumbuddies?

Also, could you explain your unvote of Zito? Because I note you

unvote

him, not just switch your vote, so you must have dismissed him as a suspect. But the two posts - and not short ones - immediately before it make no mention of Zito, but are instead addressing me.

I think its pretty obvious why you and Zito cant be scum together. The same can apply with you and me.

My unvote of Zito was due to him making the post I expected from him and at the same time you replying with the same crap logic that made me think you were scum. I think its more likely that you are scum than him.

Not obvious enough, apparently. Please explain.

Why does my scumminess have anything to do with unvoting Zito?

[ElectricBadger]

So that makes you think he's not scum?

[ElectricBadger]

So again, why this:

Prob scum

zito = but not scum with badger
electric badger = but not scum with zito

....

Here comes the good thing. I doubt Zito and badger are scum together, so basically if one of them is scum, pretty sure the other is town.

Why can Zito and I not both be scum? Why can you and I not both be scum?

[ElectricBadger]

Thank you; that was pretty much it.

You and Tajo are Scum. You and Tajo launched lengthy attacks at Adel, which proved that you were not scum together. Ergo, Adel was innocent, despite his bad play.

No, it doesnt.

I think this is your case against me, right? That I had No Reason to assume Adel was innocent. In response to the same post of mine:

This is scum logic, knowing Adel was town, setting up mislynches and at the same time acquiring town cred for defending someone that would flip townie. Scum do it all the time and I find it weird that you think its more likely that badgertown would come up with this logic.

The problem here is that there was no single VALID reason to defend Adel.

My reasoning at time:

With the heavy push to have Adel lynched (three whines for a quick lynch and counting) I'm having a very hard time believing that Tajo and Adel could both be scum together; the trio of stef/nadroj spolium/zito and tajo is working too much to defend each other and have done way too much scummy activity independently and together for none of them to be mafia; unless my take on Tajo, Stef and Spolium/Zito are all horribly wrong, I'm now inclined to view Adel as town with a pile of three scum pushing in desperation to get his bandwagon moving.

We then segue into your own logic. My apologies; I'm not usually one for gambits, and this one was particularly spammy, but it went as expected.

Prob scum

zito = but not scum with badger
electric badger = but not scum with zito

....

Here comes the good thing. I doubt Zito and badger are scum together, so basically if one of them is scum, pretty sure the other is town.

Could you please explain this comment, Tajo? How do you know Zito and I aren't chummy scumbuddies?

Also, could you explain your unvote of Zito? Because I note you

unvote

him, not just switch your vote, so you must have dismissed him as a suspect. But the two posts - and not short ones - immediately before it make no mention of Zito, but are instead addressing me.

I think its pretty obvious why you and Zito cant be scum together. The same can apply with you and me.

My unvote of Zito was due to him making the post I expected from him and at the same time you replying with the same crap logic that made me think you were scum. I think its more likely that you are scum than him.

Why can Zito and I not both be scum? Why can you and I not both be scum?

Because each of us want the other dead, buried in hell, pissed by dogs and raped by the devil.

I dont think I need to tell you why scum dont want this for their respective scumpartners.

Per your own logic, your finding me scummy indicates Zito is town, because we are at odds. Nor is this reasoning new:

However, I must admit that the only reason why I thought Zito was prob town was because of his adel hate, very similiar to mine. Now that Adel is dead and town, my reason to think Zito is town has faded away.

It is, ironically, the exact same reasoning I used. Finding you and Zito scummy indicated Adel was town, because I surely felt you wanted Adel "dead, buried in hell, pissed by dogs and raped by the devil."

You are using the same logic I did, and I have explained my reasoning thoroughly besides, so you are perfectly aware that my 'defense' of Adel was valid but you are continuing your attack on it anyways; you are now even extending that attack to Elvis. The only reason I can conceive for pushing erroneous logic is because you are scum attempting to force another mislynch.

[ElectricBadger]

Is there some merit in the logic : "Adel you are scummy as fuck but there are people suspecting you. That means you are town and the people suspecting you are scum."?

Also, this is the sort of thing I mentioned quotes for, and adding gratuitous quotation marks does not count. You continue to lie about my statements, and that is scummy. This should read instead:

"Adel you are scummy but there are people who are super duper scummy who are intent upon your lynch. That means you are probably town."

I have no beef with your trying to make a case against me, but it would hold better if you stopped making your evidence up.

[ElectricBadger]

@Mod - you have me listed for both Zito and Tajo; much as I would like that, I should just be on Tajo.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm getting a town gut read on Pop

I won't discount the value of a gut read, but what's your take on the evidence? If you think it's wrong, or can be read as town, it would be valuable to hear why.

[ElectricBadger]

My response to his main attack his here, proving that he's lying when saying he thinks my logic is invalid. Essentially, he keeps insisting that my not voting against Adel due to my suspicions of Tajo and the wagon was a sure scum tell.

Other items of particular note:
-His voting pattern (with the exception of a first RVS vote v. Spolium that was changed his next post, he avoided casting a single vote on possible mafia until Day 4)
-the FOS of all three night kills (iso them for their arguments)
-several bits of bad logic (warning Adel to stop an investigation, attacking me for a pressuring vote with his 'never vote anyone you're only 50% sure is scum' even though I only put Empking at L-3, implying not voting against town (Adel) is a sure scumtell, rushing to get a quick lynch, claiming that having some suspicions of elvis and asking Adel to explain his own in twilight was only intended for a mislynch)
-the continuing lack of investigation/defense of Zito and his hypocrisy with it
-the routine use of leading and distracting questions or vague comments without any supporting facts

[ElectricBadger]

There is a big difference, badger. I did have a good reason to think Zito was prob town before Adel's flip.

If you have reasons to clear Zito, you may want to post them. So far you seem to be simply ignoring evidence (scumbuddies tell, imo).

Really, I fail to see how aggressive attacking someone you think is scum, makes you scummy. I could say the same about you, Zito and me.

You continue to lie about my argument. Why?

And, yes, I also stopped the Empking lynch day 2. You disagree with my reasons but that should make me look townier, no?

No, you didn't. You simply said that in your opinion, Emp was likely to lurk to endgame. Not convincing, and not a proof - the pile that formed the next day on Emp proves that. You weren't even sure of your own read: you only listed Emp as Neutral at that point. Finally, if you did have a solid reason for thinking Emp was innocent, then you didn't feel the need to state it: all you said was you didn't like the wagon and thought it was a distraction.

If you Truly had a case that Emp was innocent, you didn't use it; in that case, you were doing nearly nothing to stop the lynch of a townie; and I would have to find that very, very scummy. Instead, you spent your time attacking Adel (who had voted Zito) and me (who had done the same).

Not helping town and avoiding a quickly building wagon reads like distancing at worst, neutral at best.

Overall, your Emp interactions don't earn any Scum points to me, but neither do they earn any town points, because everything you did was something scum would do.

Elvis used evidence (vote pattern) to make a case, and did so repeatedly to counter votes against Emp. She successfully destroyed a mislynch wagon and proved a prob townie, which are both anti-goon things to do; I don't think scum would have gone so far. It's not a perfect proof, so I'm still open to any solid case against her, but combined with her overall tone I'm confident putting her as town for the moment.

My analysis of town v scum also begins with the concept of Do No Harm. Scum will help town to hide, but town should never harm town - and you've done a ton. Even if you'd stopped a mislynch single handedly, your other actions would still put you on my scum list.

[ElectricBadger]

Also,

However, I must admit that the only reason why I thought Zito was prob town was because of his adel hate, very similiar to mine. Now that Adel is dead and town, my reason to think Zito is town has faded away. At this point he could be indeed town going for scummy Adel, or scum going for scummy Adel. I would put him at neutral but muzz could prob have investigated him since spolium was a top suspect day 1 and indeed that first vote feels like a breadcrumb.

There is a big difference, badger. I did have a good reason to think Zito was prob town before Adel's flip.

[ElectricBadger]

Not trying to be mean, Zaz, and I do appreciate your replacing in, but one month + 11 posts + 6 of those being assurances you'll catch up on reading.

Your profile shows you've made over 50 pages (!) of posts since joining this game.

I'm honestly more than slightly inclined to agree with Zito and lynch you on general principle for your super-lurker status. If you don't have interest in this game, maybe back out and let someone else take over? 'Cause right now the barely actives are killing it dead, and that's very frustrating.

[ElectricBadger]

We're lynching nadro, ppl. Don't get distracted. We need to clear out some dead wood which is also potentially scummy. That should help a lot.

Do you feel it's productive to lynch the least active/proven suspects while the mafia silence our most effective townies?

[ElectricBadger]

Please ignore him, his timing is obviously off for bitching about you. Just get back in the game now like it seems you are trying to do.

And yes, I'm a grouchy jerk today and I apologize; and this is also heavily influenced by the many other players who give 'catching up' posts when prodded and don't follow through. But 50 pages of posts in a month and not caught up to D1 concerns me. All I'm asking is an honest self evaluation.

[ElectricBadger]

Tajo can confirm this:
When I''m active, you''ll wish I am lurking.

Heh. I'm very much looking forward to it! And will be very nice to have another prob. townie speaking up to help break the current deadlock.

[ElectricBadger]

I think that nadro fulfills our need to lynch a lurker while lynching the lurker most likely to be scum.

We lynch a lurker, the goons kill an active townie, no net benefit towards getting an easier lynch later. Especially if we mislynch and just end up with fewer townies to vote against the scum.

I actually prefer Erik to nadroj for the 3rd goon spot at this point due to the muzzz interactions, and still FOS dark a bit, so speaking purely statistically the odds favor a mislynch. Acceptable if we can't get better info later in the game, but needless at this juncture.

Nor will it do much to clarify the current suspects; all the marginals come with the built in excuse of limited info to make a mislynch largely a non-tell for scum.

We have two excellent suspects, and I can't see any benefit in ignoring them right now.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote Tajo, Vote Zito.

I think Zito is the surest scum, although not my preferred kill. He features heavily in nearly everyone's lists, so I think we can agree on him. He's also the biggest wagon I can help make while still being confident of getting a goon. I think his flip will help clear up other arguments so we can get on with scum hunting tomorrow, without all the distractions of the last couple days.

I think jumping on our lurkers, while well intentioned, is just distributing votes everywhere and doesn't really help move the game along.

[ElectricBadger]

I thought you would be brave enough to leave your vote next to darkstrike.

Guess I was wrong.

LMAO. Yes, Tajo, I'm sure switching my vote back to Zito will completely disassociate me from your wagon. Actually, I was hoping to see if Dark would flinch from a real movement against you, or if he's just bussing (as I mentioned earlier...).

If it helps with your case, though, as long as Dark's vote is against you I do indeed support it. Obviously

But again, good effort to drop dark implications without actually saying much or offering any proof.

[ElectricBadger]

You're funny, bro.

Honestly, your proof here is that he voted for scum? That's pretty weak, imo.

EK, I have to say that I dislike your vote hopping. You've already voted for more people today than we have scum, which tells me that you either don't really have any good idea who is scum or you have, indeed, progressed to the point where you really don't care much. Or you're scum and covering up helping a mislynch, but I'm still inclined to go with my town read on you at this point.

Dark has always been my most marginal FOS, and the push between Tajo and him is nudging him away from list rather than on it. I'd still rather move on Zito and see how others react to that wagon first.

And its starting to come up with the "omg, tajo is still scum because he and darkstrike bussed".

Psst, this is the part where you bus darkstrike.

Yeah, I'm totally the one saying that, aren't I? Though it's clearly on your mind at the moment...any particular reason?

Badger, if you want to keep playing townie you'll help this wagon.

Because clearly voting with my two biggest suspects against someone I barely suspect is the best way to play town. Gag.

[ElectricBadger]

May want to note why I made most of those posts: Tajo attacked me for not focusing on Dark instead of him. I've never said not to investigate Dark (actually, I repeatedly said the opposite, to make a good case). But then, as now, Tajo used Dark to avoid any conversation about him and Zito as scum suspects.

I think everything I've done has been consistent:

-Darkstrike has some scum tells, but nothing near as bad as Zito, Tajo, Nadroj or Erik.
-I'd rather go after scum I'm more confident about and watch Dark for more tells to see how he reacts to more wagons against mafia. It makes more sense to go after marginal suspects later in the game.
-The Tajo/Dark interaction reads less and less like bussing and more and more like confrontation, diminishing my suspicions of him until/unless Tajo is proven town.

Also, I consider the mention of me possibly being scum at this point to be a way to try to manipulate me.

Nope. Just explaining why I don't find your last "lets all vote for X" calls to action very convincing, and in fact find them extremely frustrating.

Maybe post a list of your top suspects? 'Cause I have no idea who they are anymore. Only thing I'm trying to push people towards is "Find someone on the top of your list that has a wagon and move on them, rather than starting a whole new bandwagon." Maybe that's scummy. To me, it's 'FFS let's get on with this game.'

[ElectricBadger]

You're not going to get anywhere at the moment voting me. If you're really town then you'll want to help break the deadlock in this game. You're not town though so you're not going to actually try to help anything.

If I'm really town, I'll just lynch whomever is convenient. Mmhmm.

Tell you what, the best end to the current deadlock is your flip. So why don't you self vote?

The more you talk, the less inclined I am to vote Dark. Eerie flashbacks to Adel going on right now.

[ElectricBadger]

And it's not because you want zito or tajo lynched so badly that you cannot tolerate anyone else -- because you didn't pitch a fit when I voted nadroj. It's only now that I vote darkstrike that I am suddenly scum or a bad player.

You didn't see me say anything against your vote on nadroj? Look at 1381, 1387, and 1392.

When you voted nadroj, having successfully toppled two wagons, I was frustrated but I understood your reasoning, though I didn't agree with it. You're now voting Dark and asserting firmly that he can't be scum with Tajo...

Connecting tajo to dark is fairly ludicrious to me.

...which contradicts your earlier vote and your own logic:

Basically he [Darkstrike] fell off my top three because of the links I wrote about between tajo/zito/nadro.

...which doesn't make any sense to me, because you're now bandwagoning with tajo and zito against him. Unless your previous reasoning re: Tajo and Zito has completely changed (and I don't see any posting about it) then your current vote makes no sense.

It also contradicts your reasoning for going after a marginal suspect, to get rid of lurkers:

I think it's better to lynch nadro who hasn't posted all day over darkstrike, who has posted some.

So, yes, I think your Dark vote was a very bad play unless it's based on a lot more than a vote against Pyro. As for scummy...I said something you're doing is scummy in the same sentence I affirm I don't think you're scum, so blowing it out of proportion is just OMGUS imo.

[ElectricBadger]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your lynching someone who you say can't be scum with your top suspects doesn't make any sense to me.

[ElectricBadger]

It contradicts the fact that she, at that point, preferred tajo and zito, and has voted for both.

[ElectricBadger]

You and spolium/zito are avoiding both wagons (spolium was pretty much gone at that point, though, IIRC). Pyro is obviously voting Achilles.

So your proof is that Dark HAD to have jumped wagons to bus, and that it's IMPOSSIBLE that stef or dingo either weren't keeping up with the thread, wanted to look that way, or didn't want to vote against their own.

As I said, as proof goes, it's very weak.

Not too concerned about friends, btw. Would rather stick to scum, and if my flip is required then so be it. Silly to lose the game for town in the hopes of staying alive longer.

But good attempt to bully.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote count AFTER dingo/Erik's last post (sans the one requesting replacement):

Vote Count

as of Post 322
(10) Achilles (Adel, Kison, Stef, elvis_knits, dingoatemybaby, muzzz, Cephrir, Darkstrike_11, Pyromaniac, duckduck96)
(4) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe, The Red Severum, Empking's Alt, ekiM)
(1) Spolium (Infection)
(1) Cephrir (populartajo)
(1) Stef (roflcopter)

(3) Not Voting (Spolium, Achilles, Simenon)

With

20

players alive, it takes

11

votes to lynch!

Bussing at this point would have been stupid.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote count as of nadroj's last post. Neither the achilles wagon or the pyro wagon yet exist.

Vote Count

as of Post 957
(6) Adel (populartajo, Papa Zito, Achilles, Empking's Alt, ErikTheRed, elvis_knits)
(3) populartajo (Adel, ElectricBadger, Simenon)
(1) Papa Zito (muzzz)

(5) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, ZazieR, Darkstrike_11, inHimshallibe)

With

15

players alive, it takes

8

votes to lynch!

Prodding ZazieR.

So tell me, Tajo, why you think these people would have bussed if they were scum?

[ElectricBadger]

Er, frack. Too rushed. Ignore that last...looked up wrong one.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Count

as of Post 272
(8) Achilles (Adel, Simenon, Kison, Stef, elvis_knits, dingoatemybaby, muzzz, Cephrir)
(2) Stef (The Red Severum, roflcopter)
(2) Cephrir (populartajo, Empking's Alt)
(2) Spolium (Infection, ekiM)
(1) Adel (duckduck96)
(1) The Red Severum (Pyromaniac)
(1) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe)

(3) Not Voting (Darkstrike_11, Spolium, Achilles)

With

20

players alive, it takes

11

votes to lynch!

Blah. Remembered that both other votes were non-tells, forgot exactly why. Rushing bad. Anyways:

This was as of STEF's last post of substance (ie, more than one line long). Achilles wagon is actually STILL BUILDING, pyro isn't anywhere close to a wagon.

So same question to Tajo.

[ElectricBadger]

ASKLDRJQ@#$*O%YQ@$TRJKASDNF

Yes. Either way he flips, at least he'll deserve it. And no, Dark, flipping town won't do jack to convict Tajo, any more than Adel did. Accusing scummy players is what we all do. Accusing players who have proven themselves innocent, on the other hand, IS a tell. If you're town and want to help town, you're doing a really lousy job of it.

And hell, one thing I can agree with Tajo and Zito on! Dark, post a scum list. Do you see Zito as scum? Helping to flip him will go a lot further toward getting Tajo lynched than leaving a lone vote floating uselessly and acting scummy.

Also waiting for a list from EK.

Badger, who on the pyro wagon was bussing pyro. It's likely that atleast one buddy was bussing him. Who do you think it is?

Dark is possible. Dunno.

The question for me is, is it a tell. Is Dark's action something scum would do but town wouldn't? I concluded that No, voting for Pyro isn't a tell.

I'm not sure what badger is posting about right now or what he's trying to prove...

I'm saying that of my three suspects for the 3rd place goon, 2 were AWOL and so wouldn't have bussed. Thus, their stance - and lack of bussing - isn't a tell.

Spolium was also gone, so not much of a tell.

Tajo was on Cephrir, avoiding both wagons, so I imagine he never felt any need to switch.

So IMO situation was EITHER:
1 goon OMGUSing, 2 AWOL, and 1 on a third party, or
1 goon OMGUSing, 1 AWOL, and 1 on a third party and 1 bussing.

Both seem possible. But I find it weak that Tajo is using a vote against scum as a tell, just as he tried to use my lack of a vote against a townie.

You weren't calling me scum though, which you did after I voted darkstrike, which I consider a desperate attempt to intimidate me.

This is seriously how you react any time someone says you did something scummy? Do you really feel intimidated by it?

I toppled two wagons? Two dead wagons. We were deadlocked and I was trying to compromise and find a person I thought was scum but also had a chance of being lynched.

Both were better than the next person you voted, and as good or better than your current. Recall having 2 votes on each of 4 wagons?

And why to YOU think they could be scum buddies? Please explain why you think they could be buddies. I have explained why I think they're not.

I increasingly don't think they are. But I'm not voting for Dark. Why do you think they're buddies, or are you now of the opinion that Tajo and Zito are town?

So why are you calling my actions scummy if you don't really think I'm scum?

Because it was scummy? Because I call things as I see them? Because I've been accused of defending every suspicious person who I'm not voting for, or buddying up any time I agree with someone who isn't suspicious? Clearly, there is no stance I can take that won't be attacked, thank you for clarifying that.

OMGUS is something scum do

No, OMGUS is something anyone who feels threatened does.

I think you made a bad move. If my calling you on that means I'm scum, very well.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm...only thing I like about Dark so far is his stance on Tajo. The rest reads like pure scum. Whether it's Dark or Tajo, it seems scummy townies is another theme of this game.

Re-evaluating my take on both - exploring the Could Tajo Be Town option - and following vote patterns yielded a curio:

Vote Count

as of Post 445
(10) Pyromaniac (inHimshallibe, The Red Severum, Empking's Alt, ekiM, elvis_knits, Darkstrike_11, Simenon, Achilles, Cephrir,

Spolium

)
(5) Achilles (Kison, Stef, muzzz, Pyromaniac, duckduck96)
(1) Spolium (Infection)
(1) Cephrir (populartajo)
(1) Stef (roflcopter)

(2) Not Voting (Adel, ErikTheRed)

With

20

players alive, it takes

11

votes to lynch!

So, EK, to answer your question even better - SPOLIUM is the busser. You were right after all.

Now it's just damnably curious that Tajo posted an earlier list, which no one else seems to be citing, missing both the one above and the final count, which were after Adel unvoted; implying that other list was the final one, Tajo nicely sidestepped the way Spolium managed to join at the tail end, when the outcome was glaringly obvious, but narrowly avoided having to be the hammer. Again with the misleading posts, very tricky this go-around though, I give you a hearty kudo, Tajo.

The lies and misinformation Tajo keeps using to get a lynch any way he can outweigh even the godawful attrocious self vote/V/LA of Dark (though, admittedly, barely). Leaving my vote where it is and playing the odds.

I'm sure others will read that as a tell, but since both Zito and Tajo have already taken the precaution of pre-emptively accusing me of bussing if I change my vote any action I take at present will be cited as a tell.

[ElectricBadger]

I guess this is my list:

SCUMZOR:
PapaZito
darkstrike_11

Possible scum (all pretty much equal in my mind):
ErikTheRed
duckduck
nadroj15
tajo

Also, duckduck was the hammer - although Skitzer left him off the final list - so potential there for bussing as well, if you still suspect him.

Again, not defending Dark - though I'm sure it comes across that way - but noting that pushing the bussing proof is on the borderline between garbage and outright lying.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger, didnt you say something about that bussing at the end of the wagon would be stupid?

Not that I recall. I also said there's no proof anyone was bussing pyro, but obviously you're going to mix and match logic.

Mmm, so you somehow know that me and dark are scummy townies?

You continue to play obtuse. I'll play along, though.

So BOTH of you are scum, hmm?

[ElectricBadger]

And if you're taking it from inhim, you must have noticed the brightly colored chart for Pyro's lynch right beneath the one you snagged.

Deny all you like; you'll hardly admit it, after all, and as I said it was nicely done. I do like how you didn't bother to address Spolium qua busser, though, just the part where I accused you.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm...only thing I like about Dark so far is his stance on Tajo. The rest reads like pure scum.

I recall you said something about that you werent sold on darkstrike suspicions when I first attacked him.

What exactly changed?

Self vote and the invitation to lynch reads like he's trying to play off Adel guilt/drama; refusal to mount a defense (the post about spolium should have come from Dark, not me); his list that reads against many associations; more intentional lurking and admitting to it; and the V/LA just reads like more of the same. Basically, everything he's posted lately.

What do you think of Zito being in his neutral/town reads?

First off, I think it's very interesting that YOU bring that up.

I think that if Dark flips scum it goes a very long ways towards clearing you as a townie. If that's true, you're the scummiest town I've ever seen, so I'm resisting that. I'm half tempted to vote Dark just to see the flip, but I don't see things going well for town either way he comes up.

But yes...Zito...Dark's listing of him, and more importantly his refusal to join even a small bandwagon against him, is interesting. If we do see a DarkScum, then I need to review his Spolium/Zito interactions but I don't think it clears Zito at all.

My fear is that this is a viable point for scum to throw one of three under the bus to give two others townie status and cause a few mislynches. If that involved you, though, it seems ridiculously long in the setup, so I'm mostly looking at Zito and seeing who else fits the bill.

Mostly trying to re-evaluate my reads - thrown into a bit of turmoil atm, because everyone is acting like scum.

[ElectricBadger]

EK - what's your take on Tajo if Dark flips town?

[ElectricBadger]

EK - what's your take on Tajo if Dark flips town?

Why exactly are you asking this question to EK?

Why are you answering for EK?

But am bored, will reply anyways. Current wagon seems to be going ahead full steam - various persons have found their easy lynch, and evidence is clearly no longer welcome. I'm already pretty sure where you all want to go if Dark flips scum. This leaves me curious about the other eventuality for tomorrow, because I'm inclined to think that's the way it'll go unless my suspicions of Tajo are completely in error.

But by all means, EK, if you want to promise to lynch Tajo I'm all for that.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Zito

[ElectricBadger]

Badger, your last vote feels like a "testing the waters" vote knowing how vocal you are. I expected an analysis of the current game situation. Feeling shy today?

My thoughts are posted. I identified you as the biggest threat to town, and the lynch you suggested yesterday killed another townie. I could say the same again today...I could mention you're lying about my logic AGAIN...I could point out the ridiculousness of your claim that pushing mislynches tell us nothing (though voting against them tells you I'm scum)...but honestly, kinda feeling it's time for me to shut up and for the lurkers to be forced to start saying something rather than skimming and voting the easy wagon.

[ElectricBadger]

It jives perfectly.

My vote on you simply wasn't the topic.

[ElectricBadger]

Of course we should lynch the one who is most likely of these four to be scum. I have not decided on who that is yet.

That would probably be key. Otherwise you're just proposing to lynch the most vocal people in the game, because they are so. Which isn't terribly helpful.

And don't really agree with linking me and Elvis, but that's up to you to prove, I expect.

[ElectricBadger]

Also, most of the other players in the game seems to be cleared by the both factions so to say, which makes you four the people to watch for me right now.

nadroj and Erik are definitely FOS. You and duckduck are yet to be cleared as well.

I'm just saying it's better to find who's scummy and then lynch than find who to lynch and then determine who's scummy. All you've cited so far is that we're at odds, but town is fully capable of that. And we're nearly out of mislynches (1 left?), so not a time to be guessing.

That said, Zito is scummy as heck.

[ElectricBadger]

And why do you think I'm scum? Even Tajo and Zito don't think I am.

I dont, I just thought that Tajo and Zito thought you were. That was wrong I see now, and I apologize.

Did you just apologize to another player for thinking they're town because they told you they aren't, and two other scum suspects think so too?

Pardon me while I go cry in a corner. This is why we keep mislynching....

[ElectricBadger]

So we have 6 players left, 3 are scum:
duck
badger
erik
nadro
zito
tajo

Agree mostly. Need to review; need independent evidence elvis was cleared by this, but even in the worst case I don't think she's a good place to start.

Vote Count as of Post 1077 - Adel Lynch

(8)

Adel

(populartajo, Papa Zito,

Achilles

, Empking's Alt, ErikTheRed, elvis_knits, inHimshallibe,

Adel

)
(2) populartajo (ElectricBadger, Simenon)
(1) ErikTheRed (

muzzz

)

(4) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, ZazieR,

Darkstrike_11

)

Vote Count as of Post 1459 - Darkstrike_11 Lynch

(6)

Darkstrike_11

(ErikTheRed, populartajo, elvis_knits, Papa Zito,

Darkstrike_11

, inHimshallibe, Empking's Alt)
(2) Papa Zito (

Achilles

, ElectricBadger)

(4) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, JamesBond, ZazieR)

Common names to all 3 lists: ErikTheRed, populartajo, Papa Zito

Not proof positive, but definitely a good place to start imo. Even without all the other evidence I've posted.

Unless my math is wrong, we have 5 lynches left.

[ElectricBadger]

If anyone doesn't want to clear me, that's fine. I can go on the list of potential scum if that helps us win.

You've made a couple remarks to this effect, but when I commented on suspicious behavior yesterday you seemed to take it rather personally. Any reason?

[ElectricBadger]

You had said you cleared me and then attacked me when I didn't agree with you. That's BS in my book.

I often see scum trying to unconfirm players, since confirming too many town makes it impossible for them to win. I was worried that you were doing that.

What I said was, specifically:

Elvis used evidence (vote pattern) to make a case, and did so repeatedly to counter votes against Emp. She successfully destroyed a mislynch wagon and proved a prob townie, which are both anti-goon things to do; I don't think scum would have gone so far.

It's not a perfect proof, so I'm still open to any solid case against her,

but combined with her overall tone I'm confident putting her as town for the moment.

For the record, after yesterday's events you're currently far from cleared/confirmed town in my book. The only way for me to not call you potential scum is to resolve my questions and be convinced you're town.

Also, putting me on the list of players that are not cleared is not the same as someone calling me scum. IT's just saying that there is no proof I'm town. I'm fine with that. But anyone calls me scum I will fight that.

An interesting take overall - that voicing any suspicions of you is scummy, even though you acknowledge you aren't confirmed and that you've made mistakes. And you've also previously accused me of buddying because I agreed with you, leaving no interaction that ISN'T a scum tell. Do you understand why I'm calling shenanigans on you?

Anyways - yesterday, Tajo's list and remark about the need for a busser was the evidence that convinced you to lynch darkstrike. But you never responded when I pointed out his post was misleading, and there were two other potential bussers. Why?

[ElectricBadger]

Mod: Is Pop voting Achilles?

No, he's just saying what he would have done Day 1 if the situation had been different.

Also, Achilles is dead....

[ElectricBadger]

Elvis Knits was completely useless not posting anything.

The lack of answering questions was certainly noted.

Admittedly, I'm still not understanding what the vote thing is about.

[ElectricBadger]

Was that directed to me? You want me to answer questions?

Mmhmm.

Third try's the charm?

[ElectricBadger]

Why didn't I respond to your point? I don't know since I don't even remember your point. Link me to it if you want it answered now.

Here, here and here, with various responses by others.

Seems like a lot to just miss.

[ElectricBadger]

Interesting wagon. Not really sure what to make of it atm, but curious to see where it goes and I'm willing to settle for Erik today. Lets make this thing a bit more fun.

Unvote Zito, vote ErikTheRed

Second player most suspicious based on voting patterns.

Who's #1?

[ElectricBadger]

Err, why are

you

voting for Erik?

For seriously...?

He's been my #3 guy for a while now. Remember who first suggested your evidence that Erik was an investigation?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 84#1756584

[ElectricBadger]

(4) Not Voting (duckduck96, JamesBond, nadroj15, ZazieR)

With

11

players alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch!

*Twiddles thumbs*

[ElectricBadger]

lmao yesterday I was scummy because I refused to help you lynch Darkstrike, Tajo. The day before because I refused to help lynch Adel. Get your tells straight, man, you're again dismissing all your own evidence against me.

And as I said, Erik has been on my list for a while. Personally I find it hilarious that you're using my logic re: the investigation while simultaneously acting confused at my vote.

Personally I think you were bussing and didn't expect me to jump on the wagon to make it start to have a solid chance of success. I think you're too nervous to jump off and look obvious about it, so you're trying to get me to do so.

[ElectricBadger]

Why are you supporting the wagon of your top suspects?

You're not even pretending to read my posts anymore, are you? And didn't we have a whole argument where you refuted this logic?

So your case, summed up:
-I'm scummy for staying off wagons against people that I repeatedly say aren't my top suspects and have weak evidence against them.
-I'm scummy for joining a wagon against someone I've repeatedly said is in my top suspects and has strong evidence against him.

So the Townie method is your own, I assume: lynch whomever is handy at the moment on weak evidence, and not learn anything from it.

I think I'll stick with my methods, TYVM.

[ElectricBadger]

So now are you saying that the Adel case and the Darkstrike case had weak evidences?

Sorry, didn't realize I was unclear about that at some point: Yes. If your evidence was so ironclad, why was it all wrong?

You've said he is your third suspect. Zito and me are your two top suspects. Why are you supporting a lynch of a third suspect that is being proposed by your two top suspects? Does it make any sense to you?

And as I said, Erik has been on my list for a while. Personally I find it hilarious that you're using my logic re: the investigation while simultaneously acting confused at my vote.

Personally I think you were bussing and didn't expect me to jump on the wagon to make it start to have a solid chance of success. I think you're too nervous to jump off and look obvious about it, so you're trying to get me to do so.

Like I said, read through my posts before you launch your attacks, it'll help man.

According to the logic you used to clear Adel, shouldnt this make Erik automatically less suspicious?

Interesting wagon. Not really sure what to make of it atm, but curious to see where it goes and I'm willing to settle for Erik today. Lets make this thing a bit more fun.

It's an intriguing contrast. It would be more intriguing a contrast, though, if you were actually trying to rally a lynch on Erik and stating evidence against him rather than spending your time implying I shouldn't be on the bandwagon and trying to split votes against me. So far my initial read of bussing gone wrong is playing out per expectations.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm, Zito jumping to Tajo's defense...color me surprised.

I'm fine with Dark lynch.

Badger, if you want to keep playing townie you'll help this wagon.

You're even worse than Tajo is. I'm scum if I don't help you, I'm scum if I do. Figure your tells out, then we can talk, bro. In the meanwhile, read (yet again) my above reasoning and either address it or move along.

Also, to repeat: your wagon is a joke. Other than leaping off the thing or posting defenses of Erik (which would make you even more obvscum and ruin any chance of bussing) you've done everything you can already to break it down by attacking the wagon, distracting from the investigation and completely ignoring the suspect.

If you guys went batshit crazy after Erik, or he after you, I might be influenced. Your token votes have less effect.

Lets get another vote on this thing and watch Zito and Tajo wiggle with indecision.

You guys aren't opposed to lynching Erik, are you?

[ElectricBadger]

Exciting news!

Harumafuji will replace nadroj15.
NewAgeWarrior will replace ZazieR.

Awesome, thank you skitzer!

[ElectricBadger]

At this point I want to lynch Badger just to reduce the amount of smug in the thread.

LOL

Honestly though am I9 really the only one to find PZ the scummiest?

I've been trying to push that wagon for 2 1/2 days now, but it's not going anywhere, even though many people seem to agree that he's very likely scum and very likely the subject of an investigation.

Frankly, if you want it to move start posting - you're a prob townie so your voice actually carries some weight.

[ElectricBadger]

James' hammer was lousy, but I'm not sure it was a tell as it v. a goon. Not liking other things about him still, though.

Vote Zito.

Let's get this done with.

[ElectricBadger]

(PZ OR Poptajo)

At great risk to my sanity - why zito OR tajo? That makes no sense to me.

[ElectricBadger]

Honestly though am I9 really the only one to find PZ the scummiest?

I can't see anything of substance posted by or about PZ since this...why the 180 in opinion, Emp?

[ElectricBadger]

Also, I think it's now pretty clear now that Muzz did indeed do an investigation into Erik. Why would he start out the day after that with a vote on Zito, if he hadn't also investigated him? If muzz's N1 investigation had been a not guilty on Adel, why wouldn't he have investigated Zito instead of Erik N2?

[ElectricBadger]

Hope things get better, man. Catch you when you're able.

[ElectricBadger]

Harumafuji, this player slot has been on both scum lynches.

Also, both town lynches - indeed, you've kept with the majority for every lynch.

Yesterday you were #2 on Erik, a perfect bussing position, and I still hold that you got trapped there: jumping off a forming wagon on a scumbuddy would have been way too obvious. Nor, as I mentioned then, did you or Tajo say a single word to help build the wagon - so I can't take your vote there too seriously.

The hammer on Pyro was similar. The lynch was already completely decided when your predecessor jumped on for some townie points. He never posted anything to help build the wagon.

You behaved much the opposite on both townie lynches, though - very outspoken, pushing very hard.

[ElectricBadger]

BTW, here was your big contribution to the wagon

No, my main contribution was earlier - when I showed that Erik was the subject of an investigation - an idea no one had mentioned previously, and which brought Erik to the fore as potential scum. I can't imagine that being written scum v. scum, but others are welcome to read it and decide on their own.

As for the evidence you posted, others - including EK, now proven townie - have affirmed the unvote as Erik first replaced was a null tell, and Spolium had vanished for the Cephrir wagon. The rest matches your own voting pattern. What are we to draw from that?

Yeah, real strong opinion there. Let's unvote SUPER DUPER SCUMMY ZITO and then JOIN THE WAGON ZITO IS ON. That makes perfect sense.

Except, according to your claim of innocence, I unvoted a townie to push a wagon against scum. That's pro-mafia how, exactly?

I remain stupified how highlighting myself by fighting against 2 town lynches and supporting 1 scum lynch reads as mafia. Your and Tajo's continued efforts to portray it as such just outlines your scummy agenda to push mislynches.

I'm also curious who my scumbuddy is now, since the last three accusations - EK, Dark and Adel - have all flipped town.

[ElectricBadger]

Glad to hear he's well, and wb.

[ElectricBadger]

@ Skitzer - could you please prod IH, hasn't posted since 8/23.

[ElectricBadger]

WB. Same question for you as everyone else but Empking - why all the suspicions but no votes? What are people waiting for, or trying to accomplish?

Today feels like lots of timidly testing the waters and waiting for someone else to make an easy bandwagon to join, which I understand for scum but not for town.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm. Will have to review James some more...atm the spot seems to be pretty neutral to me; although we have enough lynches left that we could clear him out later.

I'm obviously willing to join a Tajo wagon. He's only alive this long 'cause everyone who's been after him was immediately killed.

Only on Zito now as I thought the investigation was pretty obvious at this point, but seems that's not so.

[ElectricBadger]

Unvote, vote Tajo

[ElectricBadger]

In the meantime, I didnt get valid answers for this, so you might as well try again, badger.

I've answered you repeatedly; you just don't have evidence, so you keep asking leading questions. It's feeble, but probably the most effective tactic you've got left.

Also is that were the case, Im also wondering why you are still alive, badger.

So lol again.

Next, one of EB and Zito.

Fos: IH, PZ, (ElectricBadger OR Poptajo)

Obviously, I’m the main thing keeping you and Zito alive right now. Probably also why it took you so long to level a vote against me today – the only thing that’s worse for you than my flip is your own, so my vote incited yours.

(7)

Adel

(populartajo, Papa Zito,

Achilles

, Empking's Alt,

ErikTheRed

,

elvis_knits

, inHimshallibe,

Adel

)
(2) populartajo (ElectricBadger, Simenon)
(1)

ErikTheRed

(

muzzz

)

(4) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, ZazieR,

Darkstrike_11

)

(6)

Darkstrike_11

(

ErikTheRed

, populartajo,

elvis_knits

, Papa Zito,

Darkstrike_11

, inHimshallibe, Empking's Alt)
(2) Papa Zito (

Achilles

, ElectricBadger)

(4) Not Voting (duckduck96, nadroj15, JamesBond, ZazieR)

(6)

ErikTheRed

(inHimshallibe, Papa Zito, populartajo ElectricBadger

elvis_knits

, JamesBond)
(1) Papa Zito (Empking's Alt)
(1) IH (

ErikTheRed

)

(3) Not Voting (IH, Harumafuji, NewAgeWarrior)

My voting positions are hardly as unique as you seem to keep implying. Everyone who avoided the Adel wagon and has flipped was town. Same with the Dark wagon. So obviously there were very good reasons not to vote with you.

But that’s really your case, isn’t it? Not that my votes were SCUMMY – none of them are – but that they disagreed with you.

Badger's logic to clear scummy town Adel, a decent wagon that was pushed by Zito and Tajo.

.

Badger's logic to clear scummy town Darkstrike, a decent wagon that was pushed by Zito and Tajo.

Killing townies is “decent”? No question that scum were involved and pushing them? How many mislynches have no scum involvement? These lines again point out how scummy you are. A town would be trying to find how a mislynch happened, not blaming those who didn’t support it. But you post clearly why townies were killed: you and Zito.

Badger's logic to clear scummy scum Erik, a decent wagon that was pushed by Zito and Tajo. Oh wait. He didnt clear him cuz he is scum with him, obv obv

This got a good chuckle. Pushed by you? Please cite a single line from you or Zito pushing the Erik wagon after I joined (Hint: There isn’t one). An alternate reason I didn’t find evidence to clear Erik: he was scum. Is everyone else who didn’t defend Erik also scummy?

This doesnt feel much like third suspect, huh, badger?

That I pointed out intentional lurking? – a pretty minor point and not sure what it has to do with anything, let alone why it indicates he’s my scumbuddy. I note you completely avoided my main incriminating post against Erik, in which I pointed out he was an investigation at a time when no one else was looking at him much. And which you cited as reason for voting against him.

If anyone believes that mislynches are a town tell, you have no business playing this game. What is scum more likely to do: lead two mislynches and keep silent while a push is made against a scumbuddy, or fight like hell against two mislynches and push a scum lynch? Because this is the ONLY argument Tajo and Zito have against me.

Vote accordingly.

Also, Zito and Tajo – I’m still waiting to hear who my scumbuddy is now that the last three flipped town. Tunnelling much?

Badger stayed out of very decent townie wagons (Adel and darkstrke) with the excuse that Zito and me were more scummy than both. However he didnt do anything to prevent the lynch and used scummy townies flips to bring suspicion to the valid attacks that got them lynched.

Again, very decent wagons on townies, and all the attacks on townies were valid; something only scum would say. Claiming I did nothing to speak out against your lynches is freaking hilarious.

Yes, my main reason for avoiding two mislynches was based on your being scum.

And it proved true. Not once, but twice.

[ElectricBadger]

HeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEY KIDS!!

Don't feel like playing?
Don't feel like thinking?
Don't feel like

trying

?

THERE'S AN EASY SOLUTION!

Just vote ElectricBadger!

That pretty much sums up the evidence against me, yeah.

But yes, vote for SOMEONE. This game is a hair's breadth from death.

[ElectricBadger]

So you think EB is town because he is posting in thread and even when he only posts to answer when I attack him?

I've been trying to put this into words.

Most players, like you, are barely participating. The last time you asked a question was nearly a month ago, so not really sure why I would be responding to you. As far as I'm aware, I've responded to every player who's requested such of me, and every player who was active. I've given the rest the attention they deserve.

As for the vote - between Tajo and I, who has done the most harm to town? Who has done the most to protect it?

[ElectricBadger]

Seriously, how is this a valid argument?

So scum is just as likely to help town more than townies? On what basis can we find them, then? Yours, in which we lynch anyone who seems convenient, talkative, and attacks you? Because it's not working very well so far.

And no, I'm not saying everyone who voted for the mislynches was scum. I'm saying the ones who tunneled and ensured it happened on horrible evidence were.

As for Harum, he's marginal scum for me and we're getting down to our last lynches. But if Zito or Tajo turn up town I'd support a Harum lynch.

And I've explained my reasoning for pushing the Erik lynch. You even used it to vote him, Tajo. You, however, haven't explained why you didn't say a single word against him once I joined the wagon, why you tried to split the wagon and clearly didn't want to see him lynched.

[ElectricBadger]

Read it. After I joined the wagon you didn't address any comment at or about Erik - only trying to cast suspicion on me for joining a scum lynch (as you are now). I've mentioned this repeatedly, even before the lynch, so I'm a bit boggled it comes as a surprise to you.

Your only evidence against me continues to be that 1) I didn't lynch townies and 2) I lynched scum. Just the fact you two keep insisting those are scum tells indicates you need to die.

But no need to take my word for it: final lists from every dead townie since D1-

Zito, Tajo, Erik

It's decided, then.

Zito, Erik, Tajo.

I'm thinking we kill one of tajo/zito today, and if we're wrong, we kill badger tomorrow.

I just can't ignore the fact that D1 and D2 we had scum lynches, and D3 and D4 we had town lynches, and tajo was a huge proponent of both town lynches. Zito has been with tajo the whole way, and I think he's a likely guilty investigation. These two make a lot of sense as scum, and as scum together. Who the third is, I'm not sure, but my favorite picks would be erik or nadro. (possibly duckduck or sim?)

PLAYERS:

duckduck96

Infection

ElectricBadger

elvis_knits

Empking's Alt

dingoatemybaby

ErikTheRed

inHimshallibe

Simenon

JamesBond

Stef

nadroj15

Spolium

Papa Zito
populartajo

The Red Severum

ZazieR

Blue for town, red for scum, orange for alternate scum, yellow for neutral.

if this person would like to provide the opportunity for me to back my statement up by starting a viable wagon on tajo, i would be happy to join it.

Scum
Duckduck96
Populartajo

Scum/Neutral
Empking’s Alt
inHimshallibe
Nadroj15

Neutral/Town
Erikthered
James Bond
Papa Zito
Zazier

Town
ElectricBadger
Elvis_knits
Achilles

My list would be:

Papa Zito
ErikTheRed
ElectricBadger
darkstrike
nadroj15

I believe our 3 mafia will definitely be found within those 5, in that order.

Note that Tajo and/or Zito feature on EVERY SINGLE LIST. Adel, muzz and EK - the ones I would call the best players - all feature both their names.

[ElectricBadger]

As for Harum, he's marginal scum for me and we're getting down to our last lynches. But if Zito or Tajo turn up town I'd support a Harum lynch.

I didn't like stef or nadroj, as I've mentioned a few times, but unfortunately neither has posted a ton.

Harum is nearly indecipherable, and I'm not thrilled with what I can read - no explanation for his FOS', and though some are sorta obvious the IH suspicion particularly needs evidence. And he hasn't cast a vote yet, which is worthless. He was also part of the "FOS on L-1 Erik" crew, which didn't thrill me (as that's pure waffling, not supporting a lynch but trying to associate with it).

However, I think Zito are Tajo are both so obvscum it hurts, so with only two more mafia out there I can't justify casting a vote on someone who by my reckoning is just very bad town.

At present, Harum would be my 3rd choice for a lynch.

[ElectricBadger]

Meh. My guess, with pyro and ceph dead the first two days you guys realized you needed to cause, what, 5 mislynches to win? Too many to hope that town would just stay oblivious.

Only real hope was to push hard for town lynches with a couple scum, NKing everyone who suspected them to keep them alive as long as possible, and keep one back and hidden for when the obvscum tipped their hand too far. Thus the Tajo/Zito aggression and the Erik intentional lurking. Would have been a pretty solid plan, actually, if muzz hadn't investigated Erik.

[ElectricBadger]

Damn you townies, and your little muzzz too! *shakes fist*

Heh, that was going through my head too, with visions of the Mystery Van.

[ElectricBadger]

I gathered that from the blind loyalty thing Another item you guys haven't explained in a way that could fit with town.

However, I think today's lynch needs to be one of us three (Zito, Tajo or I). Everyone seems to agree that at least one of us is scum and we need to break the voting deadlock so the game can move along. Ideally, I'd rather Zito - I still think he's a sure investigation by muzz - but there seems more support for a Tajo lynch, and if he's going to need replacing anyways then this'll help keep the game in progress.

[ElectricBadger]

Tajo, how 'bout a valid reason you or Zito are?

[ElectricBadger]

But none of those things are town specific. I've pushed lynches; I've kept the thread alive; I've attacked lurkers. Since you're still accusing me, those clearly aren't town tells.

All you've managed to do is push wagons against townies and tried to derail one against scum, all while doing all you can to distract lynches from yourself and protect the other scummiest person in the game, who's only still alive because all the NK's have taken out those who'd vote against him.

So again, tell me a valid reason why you or Tajo is town.

[ElectricBadger]

Town mislynches are normal in all games. Trying to blame me or Zito for pushing them when there was valid evidence agaisnt them is scummy as hell.

Following your logic all people involved in townies mislynches must be scum.

So the weird thing here is why would you stay away of these wagons and again, why would you vote for the person these two antitown scumbags were voting for?

Also I dont remember Zito or me trying to derail one wagon against scum. Refresh my memory?

Town mislynches are also rarely a result of townies alone. Nor do they ever happen without town (duh).

Again, how was your evidence valid and indisputable when it was WRONG? Please explain. Also, please explain why all the others who didn't vote for your lynches, or took a long time to do so, aren't suspicious. The only difference in my case is that I was the most active in trying to stop you from lynching townies.

And your pushing mislynches is hardly the only reason I say you're scum.

I've explained your attempt repeatedly: after I joined the Erik wagon and as it continued to build you never addressed a SINGLE COMMENT helping the wagon or investigating Erik. Instead, you attacked me, arguing I shouldn't be voting for him, then called for a redirection of the wagon away from Erik. Other than the absolutely suicidal - jumping off the wagon or claiming Erik was innocent - you did everything you could to keep him alive. It was certainly a big difference from your other two lynches.

You also keep lying by insisting my vote on Erik was surprising, when he was on my lists since I showed he was investigated (something scum wouldn't do, btw, so a good answer to your question of why I'm town).

[ElectricBadger]

Every one of your 'proofs' relies on the fact that you and zito are town. Nor, frankly, are any reliable even then: you're just speculating to fit the facts, bussing when convenient, voting to push a lynch or for town cred when it's not.

The actual facts: Sim/Bond voted for Pyro, Ceph, and Erik, and avoided both town lynches:

a perfect record

, not the scummy pattern you're trying to push with groundless suppositions. I hear echoes of your case on darkstrike; as eager as you claim I am to kill people for mislynching, you seem VERY eager to attack everyone who voted correctly.

And yet again, I'm scum for voting with you v. Erik, but also scum for not voting with you v. Adel and Dark. Clearly joining or not joining your wagon makes no difference, it's again just how you wish to interpret things to fit your accusations.

There are barely enough active town to muster a vote v. tajo or zito now. Tomorrow there will be two less. They're both clearly eager to attack anyone convenient. Eager to lynch anyone else = Scum.

[ElectricBadger]

My take on Harum is posted.

My VERSION? Unlike you guys, I don't need a version, or a long rambling list of misleading speculations.

Tajo: Avoided Pyro; killed Ceph; killed two townies; killed Erik. Was a major pusher for all 3 non-mafia kills and tried to destroy the Erik wagon.

Zito: On every kill except the one spolium was AWOL for (Ceph). Dead last to join the Pyro wagon, again pushed both town lynches and tried to destroy the Erik wagon.

If you're going to base a lynch on voting records, you two are the glaringly obvious choices.

[ElectricBadger]

Meh. Lynch Tajo today, break the deadlock, if he flips town I'm sure you'll have the backing to kill me tomorrow.

It's like you DO have the power to kill someone during the day!

[ElectricBadger]

In another attempt to prove how obvscum badger is, am I the only one that finds scummy the fact that badger is supporting a lynch both zito and me are supporting?

Clearly want me off the wagon.

Oh so are you having fun badger? Why, maybe you know we are going for the wrong guy once again? Im not having any fun AT ALL.

Insinuate Erik is town, even though you had been - and continue - to vote for him.

Why are you supporting a lynch of a third suspect that is being proposed by your two top suspects? Does it make any sense to you?

According to the logic you used to clear Adel, shouldnt this make Erik automatically less suspicious?

More whining about my vote for your scumbuddy.

At this point I want to lynch Badger just to reduce the amount of smug in the thread.

With votes building on Erik, Zito instead proposes a new lynch.

Throughout the entire thread after I joined, you and Zito do nothing but attack me without a word at or about Erik. You don't shift your votes, though: clearly you didn't want to see Erik lynched, but you also didn't feel you could vote me, either, even though you kept stating a case and hadn't hesitated to at other times.

Only one explanation for this: you had to keep bussing. Being on Erik's lynch was your only hope of continuing to deceive town. If he flipped with me and without you, you were sunk.

On the other hand, if I were Erik's scumbuddy it seems like a very lousy time to jump on his wagon; it wasn't moving much - only half the votes needed - when my joining turned the game's focus directly on lurker scum.

Also, I'm still waiting to hear why Badger-scum would demonstrate that Erik was investigated when everyone else was assuming it had been Empking. Again, seems like a REALLY bad way to help out my own team.

[ElectricBadger]

Papa Zito: agreed.

PM details plz.

Just check your role pm, all the details for night kills are right there bro.

[ElectricBadger]

What if Harum is town?

I expect then you'd call for my lynch anyways, for 'knowing' he was town. It's been the pattern so far...so yeah, your bases are covered.

Incidentally, while I would be flabbergasted if one of you were town I'm not sure why it would imply the other was as well. If I were scum and found someone as foolishly trusting as that, I'd attach to them like a leech.

[ElectricBadger]

Hey badger, you forgot to answer this:

No, you forgot to read the thread.

However, I think Zito are Tajo are both so obvscum it hurts, so with only two more mafia out there I can't justify casting a vote on someone who by my reckoning is just very bad town.

At present, Harum would be my 3rd choice for a lynch.

Oh he is your third suspect, after me and Zito, right?

Oh but so was Erik yesterday!

Did I just find another inconsistency? Oh yeah I diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid, will someone listen to me this time?/dies.

Teensy thing you missed here: yesterday there were THREE scum. Today there are TWO, which makes a third suspect significantly less appealing. As, you know, someone who isn't among those TWO is town.

Duh.

Anyways, I'm kinda at the point of annoyance that I'd really rather be lynched myself than keep arguing with you for another couple mislynches while everyone else ignores the thread.

Feel free to try again, though. But maybe answer some of my questions first, hypocrisy is unbecoming. Maybe try the one about why Badger-Scum would identify Erik as an investigation, your logic for that should be almost as entertaining as condemning JB's voting pattern.

Heck, let's have an instant replay of that for everyone skimming along:

The actual facts: Sim/Bond voted for Pyro, Ceph, and Erik, and avoided both town lynches:

a perfect record

, not the scummy pattern you're trying to push with groundless suppositions. I hear echoes of your case on darkstrike; as eager as you claim I am to kill people for mislynching, you seem VERY eager to attack everyone who voted correctly.

[ElectricBadger]

Even he agrees to be lynched so we can end this.

Um, no. That would be stupid; I expect my town flip will have about as much impact as the last two mislynches. 'Well, clearly everyone who didn't help us lynch him was scum avoiding the wagon.' I just think we'd be fools to avoid resolving this one way or the other.

Yeah, like scum wouldn't specially identify Erik as an investigation, when they probably killed muzz because they thought he investigated Erik. And even if they "randomly" killed muzz, I dont see what is so hard on faking that.

I dont wonder then why it took so long to convince us to lynch him when you were so sure Erik was an investigation, huh badger? Interestengly enough, one of the players that you think is scum, was the one that started the wagon against him and made it viable.

So proving an investigation on someone - evidence you used to vote him - when there was no wagon on him and he was lurker scum is logical bussing; but casting a single vote on scum when there aren't any others can't be bussing? For really? How do you even make this stuff up?

Why did it take so long? YOU WERE LYNCHING TOWN AND I WAS THE MOST ACTIVE PLAYER OPPOSING YOU. Seriously, man, you're grasping more and more here. Sadly, no one is even bothering to read this but us four, and I'm getting the impression three just want a lynch.

To be clear: I'm not voting myself, and I'm not voting anyone but Tajo or Zito without a freaking amazing case, which probably would have to involve the clouds breaking open and the divine announcing Tajo's innocence. As ridiculous as getting a lynch on one of them is today, it'll be that much worse tomorrow; on the other hand, his getting a lynch on me with two less townies will be that much easier.

[ElectricBadger]

EB; We lynch Harum today, who does Pop kill tonight?

I'm not gonna speculate on who scum should kill. Don't really want to give them tips, and can't see a benefit to town. Why do you ask?

I will say that if this were a town/town argument with scum lurkers then NKing one of us would have been the obvious move by now: we've been turning on lurkers the last two days, scoring one scum, and either side flipping town would be very likely to spell at least one mislynch on the other.

Wait, badger, so are you saying that we lynched Erik because of your case instead of Zito's one?

Unvote Vote : EriktheRed.

Erick should also die. Potential muzz investigation.

Far be it from me to infer, but it WAS the first reason you listed. On the other hand, Zito's devastating case was:

Erik is lurking. Again.

vote: ErikTheRed

Or are you saying you lynched Erik only because he was lurking?

Which is strange because some pages ago you were very very sure nadroj/Harum was also scum.

Yeah, that was a

lot

of pages ago. Specifically, until I pointed out Erik was a probable investigation, after which point I struggled with which was the surer thing, finally deciding Erik and lynching him. That debate is now pretty well resolved. Again, duh. You seem to keep forgetting that we lynched scum yesterday or something.

Also, while we're on your Erik vote, in the same post you mention:

People that shouldnt be lynched

elvis_knits
ZazieR
inHimshallibe
Empking's Alt
nadroj15

What happened with nadroj to change your opinion 180? I'm thinking...a new join who has badly written posts and presented a new easy target?

[ElectricBadger]

I don't think a night kill will make it more difficult to get a Pop lynch.

As I posted before, every single one of the last 6 townies killed had zito and/or tajo on their list. Yesterday EK had turned solidly on Tajo. Do you think it would be easier to lynch him today if she were alive?

6 isn't a coincidence, it's a solid pattern that I expect to repeat.

BTW, I thought I was the muzzz investigation.

Maybe actually read the post?

[ElectricBadger]

...I'm not really sure what to say.

71 pages, and I'm scummy based on infection's 4 comments and my not lynching a townie.

1766 posts and you've narrowed potential scum down to 7 of 9 players.

Not enough people are reading, or caring, except me and the scum duo (although I do appreciate that you're giving it a shot to get involved again, Emp). This has been a firm lesson in why deadlines are absolutely necessary. I'd frankly rather lose than keep us all bogged down here and have the game forever incomplete.

As for the game itself: I'm town, tajo and zito are obvscum, but I've seen over and over that no one will vote them because of doubts of me. Four lynches left; hopefully with me gone opinion will rally against them while there's still time (although I hold low hopes, based on the reactions to Adel and Darkstrike's votes). So while this is mostly frustration, it's honestly the only way I can think of to get the game moving again and lynch scum with our last attempts:

Unvote, Vote ElectricBadger

[ElectricBadger]

*Taps fingers and awaits the hammer*

[ElectricBadger]

I do love the last minute scramble to distance each other and shift blame to try to disprove townies. Emp? Really?

[ElectricBadger]

What would I do, precisely?

[ElectricBadger]

Indeed.

Kill Tajo and Zito.

Or lose.

[ElectricBadger]

Interesting game all. Good job mafia!

[ElectricBadger]

Were you in this game, Xyl?

Yeah. He is a badger alt.

No.

And no, EK, you didn't troll at all.

[ElectricBadger]

IMO this was the reason you were earmarked as scummy, and flagged for attacks later. At least, that was the reason I doubted you until Tajo convinced me otherwise.

Unfortunately, I think my attempts to join the conversation also contributed to your demise. Newbie=scummy. Sorry bout that.