Mafia 103 - Ktown Mafia (Game Over)

[kunkstar7]

Ok, just a quick post checking in. I'm going to read over the entire thread, and opinions and comments coming next.

[kunkstar7]

Ok starting off with the current votes against me, to the best of my knowledge they are based on poor participation from earlier? Although I completely see your point about his vote on the lynch, I am not him and can't explain that what he was thinking.

So far Wicked is seeming scummy, as I read through several posts, he makes several comments that are odd.

Day 2 cruelty started attacking me for not voting my top suspect, but instead joining the bandwagon I liked.

My main question to Wicked is why would you not vote your top suspect, instead of just going with whatever bandwagon seemed fitting? That's seems more like you don't care who really gets lynched, just pick one. If you had a really strong feeling about your top suspect I think you should have pursued it better.

Cades has not posted barely anything, his post mentioning his lurking is bad, instead of just posting that you ARE lurking, you should have tried to add actual content. We have had too many lurkers in this game for its own good.

Furry seems pretty pro-town, although his strong defense of CrueKnight strikes me odd. Yet he has a quite valid point to back up his reasoning.

Reading through Sir Chris's posts, I felt a bad vibe from him as well, I'm not sure what to make of his insistence of a possible SK.

I don't have enough of a basis for any vote, I need a little play time to develop a true decision, so

unvote

.

[kunkstar7]

Ah yes. Stupid me, should have gone back and reread again >_>. Honestly there are too many pages to read through and keep everything straight replacing in.

And one question..what is the meaning of iso?

[kunkstar7]

Oh thanks! Was looking for a feature like that earlier.

[kunkstar7]

Deadline is December 19, ~11:00 am MST

I'm glad to see malp's replacement is active, but I'm less than satisfied with the content. kunkstar, you think wicked is scummy, so why did you unvote instead of voting wicked? How do you think that more time is going to help you form a basis for a vote if you don't question anyone? And before you say you asked a question to wicked, it doesn't count because if you'd have read the thread, you'd have seen that question has been answered more than once. Also, why did you only choose to mention wicked, cades, furry, and sir chris in your analysis post? there are 7 other players in the game.

I did not vote wicked as my opinions in that analysis were mainly formed from the cursory (as you have noticed) read through of the thread. In my last sentence I stated that I do not have enough of a basis to call out anyone. For example, in your initial entrance to the game I felt you came in quite strong and that was a bit offsetting to me, as I felt that maybe the strong town play might be a ploy. Yet you have consistently posted well, so I did not comment on you merely on the basis of a first feeling. The players that I mentioned were the ones stood out to me as I skimmed through and I could find material to back up my thoughts. I prefer not to make claims without material to base it on.

My suspicion on Wicked stems mostly from the argument between him and Cruelty, as cruelty seemed to be making a much more rational argument than wicked.

In response to wicked about Crueknight..I can see your argument against him. His vote against solemnJ and following defenses were weak. It seems we have two camps in that little argument, solemnJ and wicked versus Furry and Crueknight. The fact that Furry seems sure of ck is offsetting to me as how would he know, although ck's subsequent suspicion of Furry because of it might be him distancing him from Furry. Unfortunately I felt like Furry was quite Town besides this, which mixes things up really. Why do you seem sure of ck Furry?

Personally, if we were to go with a lynch for non-contribution/lurking I am looking at cades mostly, possibly dana.

[kunkstar7]

Why do you seem sure of ck Furry?

Because I have a strong town read on him. I trust my town reads much more then my scum reads, and will defend them quite aggressively when I think that they are in any peril.

@cruel - That is not helpful if you want wicked lynched. It is turning into kunk-wicked at an alarming rate, and this actually is detracting from your chosen wagon.
quote]

It seems like its going to go this way as we get closer to the deadline. I'm not voting myself, so in the end it comes down to wicked in my mind. I'm going to trust Furry's read on ck here. I don't think that they would be so stupid as to buddy themselves openly like that, but you never know. if wicked flips scum then good, if he flips town, then we can look at wicked's arguments with a better light, he's left plenty of posts. Wicked has been really defensive so far, and I don't like the fact that he does exactly what he accused cruelty of, deflection and quoting out of context.

Unless the cades option gets anywhere, I'm going with my initial read,

Vote: wicked

.

[kunkstar7]

Having said that, I won't do it yet - I want more discussion because I'm not really liking the apathy from the majority here; we definitely need to hear more from Furry (I don't like you letting cades slide because Katniss was ok with you), we need more from kunk (you're under pressure to prove your innocence here, most suspicion directed your way is a result of mal's poor play), mike, solemnj... hell, basically everyone.

Something that recently jumped out at me is this:

I'm going to trust Furry's read on ck here.

What is YOUR read?

What if Furry is scum? Why would you trust someone else's read?

My read on Crueknight is that he hasn't done much to stand out to me as whoa, not good, with the exception of his "pressure vote" on sJ. If you even take a look at one of Wicked's recent posts, one of ck's big opponents lately:

Thanks for reminding me. I just noticed something interesting that happened on page 9: 5 votes were all cast for CrueKnight in just 20 posts. This probably means that CK is town. It also means that there are probably scum that wagoned in those 20 posts. I no longer support that bandwagon.

Wicked also agrees that CK is probably town. But here its kind of suspicious that wicked would have a turn like that, yet his reasoning is logical. I've gotten a pretty pro-town vibe from Furry so far, yea knock it as a "gut feeling" possibly but if a pro-town seeming player defends another player as town, then I'm not going to waste my vote voting against that, when I have suspicions that the other side, namely wicked, is the scum. Why do I think Wicked is scum? For the same reasons you do cruelty, actually your posts against him are what really influenced my opinion on him. And now on top of this the change on his opinion of ck. Yet if wicked flips townie, then I say go against Ck. Wicked has given plenty of argument for that, and I'm sure we can view that argument in a proper light knowing what side he is really on.

[kunkstar7]

@SolemnJ:

Nope, unfortunately I don't have any special role, just a vanilla townie.

[kunkstar7]

unvote vote: cades

Dana, I really don't like your voting style. No substance, no opinions, nothing, just going along with whatever happens to be the fad at the moment. Do you think it is better to vote for cades because of his noncontribution so far, or better to vote for someone suspected?

Whats your opinion of voting for noncontribution?

You have any reasons that haven't been brought up for voting anyone?

[kunkstar7]

I can see how it seems scummy, but I was just clarifying to sJ that mal was just messing around at that point. I would understand if my role was something that could be detrimental if the scum found out, but its not, I'm just saying what it is.

[kunkstar7]

Are you serious cades? We have been through two days, and you have *nothing*?

@faraday: What gave you the idea of four scum?

With the way that the wicked lynch turned out, we should put some real consideration into pressuring CrueKnight. Cruelty also opposed wicked, but since his reasonings against wicked were well founded, I'm not giving that too much weight.

[kunkstar7]

If that's unlikely then how many scum do you think there might be?

[kunkstar7]

Oh sorry I was thinking your were hinting at more than four, but yea that would be more unbalanced.

[kunkstar7]

We have a lot of time for discussion, I don't think we should be considering a lurker lynch, we should be pressuring possible leads instead. This is not saying we should ignore lurkers, we need to get them into the game as well.

[kunkstar7]

I believed the vanilla claim because I saw that dana had been subbed in, and I felt like believing her. I like to think I can figure out a person's role by the way they post, in the categories: Cop, Doc, Vanilla. I've already narrowed down the people I think are Cop. And Dana's story fit for being a vanilla.

I suppose she could be scum, but I'm still leaning towards her claim being true.

Umm..I'm thinking you mispoke here. That claim was me. Thanks for the vote of confidence anyway. Lets say that it was Dana for a moment. What have you seen from her that would make you believe a vanilla claim?

I find it weird that you left scum out of your categories. Yes, maybe you do it in reverse, trying to find all the town first, but that's kind of a weird approach. I was under the impression that scumhunting was to find scum, not to organize the town into categories?

[kunkstar7]

So far it seems we haven't gotten much of anywhere with this day. This is a honest question, not condescending or anything. @Faraday, What do you think a mass claim will help the town with?

[kunkstar7]

@Cruelty: What do you make of the wicked lynch? Now knowing he's town, where do you feel that places your judgements? Other than cades being totally nonexistent, do you have any other substantial reasons for voting heilo? Do you believe that a lurker lynch is something we should go for?

Lolvote on Heilo xD

Although in seriousness, the fact that you said that makes me think you aren't actually paying attention to the thread, which doesn't help town.

@mikeburnfire: In your earlier post during last day, you pseudo-voted me and Crueknight. Do you not think that Crue is still lynch worthy? Why did you not mention him at all in your recap post?

Why would an odd number make a difference in a claim?

[kunkstar7]

Cruelty,

[kunkstar7]

Well, that's weird. I was going to post a comment to cruelty about his voting pattern lately, but when I went to iso him for backup, it posted that tidbit.

I sort of see a bandwagon quickly forming here, just voting SJ with not too much reason, I mean basically cruelty is just hopping on to get the game sparked. Yes he has a little bit of reasoning for it but still. Unfortunately I do agree this game needs a jumpstart, mainly we need to get players back posting. Without Crue, Dana, SJ, posting its hard to build a current case on them, or to confirm if any of the cases we have now are well founded.

[kunkstar7]

I agree. Remember, the mafia is almost a majority now. We have to watch for certain bandwagons.

This sentence here puts me off. Assuming that we have a three person mafia, we aren't close to a mafia majority for at least two days if we mislynch both days and there is a single night kill each night. Just seems to be a little fear-mongering. Do you have any certain bandwagons in mind that you are referring to, or just in general? I also did note you are V/LA but I needed to address this while its fresh for me.

[kunkstar7]

Honestly I don't really know where to go. If I look at it like don says, the three candidates as Sir Chris, Cruelty, and himself, I would have to go with a SJ/Don vote. So far SJ made himself look very suspicious, while Sir Chris has seemed quite town to me. Cruelty looked logical in his disccussions with wicked. Obviously wicked turning out town taints that, but I can't hold it against him because I felt wicked was being scummy as well.

[kunkstar7]

Well, we have Haylen claiming vig day 1, and being lynched, with Scott Brosius and The Inquisition nightkilled as lovers. Day two we lynched wicked, townie, and Rhinox was night killed, townie. That's the basis. Day three hasn't been much of anything, there is a wagon going on SolemnJ/Don_johnson at this point, but replacements are many and activity is low. You could do votecount analysis of the lynches and read just around the end of each day for the general gist of things.

[kunkstar7]

Sir Chris's turn from DJ to Cruelty was ....unexpected. Honestly I don't think I could go for a cruelty lynch. His posting has been sound and logical. Besides Crueknight, he's the only other original player left. With the exception of the last day he has been posting well, and I find myself agreeing with his posts when I reread in iso.

Sir Chris has given off a town vibe with his posting as well. DJ seemed so exasperated, his posts just seem to me like a scum trying to desperately fight his way out of suspicion.

Heilo and Alkaline have continued their slots trend of nothing basically. We avoided a cades lynch yesterday so he could be replaced, and that didn't work out so well. And once again we are coming to a deadline lynch with barely any real direction.

[kunkstar7]

lol. Sir Chris is on firee! :p

And what the heck is up with posts 950 - 964?

As for the over-defensive Sir Chris, I would normally look at that as scummy. But as said before, the mafia really has nothing to lose. They're all living. They hold 3+ votes.
The mafia would normally act cool in this situation.

As for my thoughts... I'm still trying to decide between DJ and Sir Chris.
DJ because I didn't really feel comfortable with SolemnJ. (Have to re-read though)
Sir Chris because cruelty made a few pointers on him that may be valid. (post 948)

As for Heilograph, I don't think he's lynchable yet, but he's asking for it if the only thing he's going to give is a choice on a bandwagon. That goes for Yoshi-whats-hisname too.

Yes the mafia would act cool. Just like your post.

You think DJ might be scum because you feel uncomfortable with him? And what about Sir Chris's thoughts on cruelty? Or are you just siding with cruelty without regard to the other side? You don't care who gets lynched seems like to me.

Vote: crueknight

[kunkstar7]

I suggest the wagon that actually has a good case for it, see: Kirbyoshi.

Suppart.

unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi.

If we are picking between wagons at this point...I'm going for Kirbyoshi. I don't like the wagon on Sir Chris, he's been a solid player as I have stated.

With both of the players on Kirbyoshi's wagon being town reads for me and a logical case being presented against him, by a protown player, he's the best choice.

As far as I can see the only case on Heilo is his slot's general horrible posting, also said of my slot.

[kunkstar7]

So, does no one want to post in this game, or what? If not, why did we ask for an extension?

So you'd not be lynched for no reason obv

I'm very happy with the heilo lynch at the moment.

I don't think you can say it would have be for no reason. Otherwise Kirby wouldn't have been in the position he was. The reason he picked up so much was it was deadline, and we tried to prevent a no-lynch.

I still don't like Crueknight.

Woah long damn extension. 1 week. But what the heck, I have no idea who to lynch. We don't have enough imo. But my mind is blank right now. I have so much going on irl. SO I will post more once rested. :p

He pops in to say basically "long extension, idk pick someone. bbl." (Paraphrasing.)

I would think by now you would have some opinion as to whats going on seeing as your one of the originals. Why do you think the extension was long? Seeing how we were really just forcing that lynch at the end, it was kind of necessary.

Along with this, Mike's and Heilo's votes were the worst of the bunch on Kirby. (Yes I do realize I'm there in third, at least in my view. ) Since there won't be anything on CK today, I'll go with a Heilo lynch, not going to vote yet though.

Besides revealing Heilo's alignment, do any of you feel that this lynch will provide any information besides that, such as other player's alignments or such?

[kunkstar7]

I don't think you can say it would have be for no reason. Otherwise Kirby wouldn't have been in the position he was. The reason he picked up so much was it was deadline, and we tried to prevent a no-lynch.

Summarise the case on him in a few short sentences plz

I'm going to leave this to Sir Chris. It was his original wagon, and he had his reasons for starting it. I can't say that my joining the wagon was really reasonable. After being asked to choose a wagon for deadline, Kirby's was the one the stood out to me as the best based. The following part of his wagon was just everyone jumping on.

Besides revealing Heilo's alignment, do any of you feel that this lynch will provide any information besides that, such as other player's alignments or such?

Loooooooooooads. For instance I've noted you seem more reluctant about this wagon than the Kirb one and perhaps are even setting up a crueknight one? I'd say that'd be fairly damning if Helio was to flip scum.

Any reluctance comes from not wanting to just join the current wagon at the moment without any real thought. We have time before deadline. I did state that I support the Heilo lynch, his slot's entirety has been bad, and the vote on Kirby was even worse.

Anyway not lynching b/c it might not provide information is quite bad a reason to me.

I don't think I implied this or meant to. I just wanted to see if others had any thoughts about where this places us tomorrow.

[kunkstar7]

Considering what I am thinking about Furry's role statements, I can see no lynch as a viable option here.

Vote: No Lynch

[kunkstar7]

Ok, Furry, what did you get last night?

[kunkstar7]

Also I thought you were tracker, ironically, Furry.

I was thinking the same thing. My claim still stands, Vanilla townie. As it were cruelty, did you get any results of any sort?

[kunkstar7]

Without MME's claim, we are looking at 4 vanilla and 2 PR. I don't know, the way cruelty's results supported Furry's results looks fishy to me. Just vibes basically, as scum trying to make themselves look confirmed by helping confirm another role.

Another option I considered was both PR's lying and supporting each other. Yet the vice to this would be would the game be balanced with just a vig and a doc?

[kunkstar7]

Without MME's claim, we are looking at 4 vanilla and 2 PR. I don't know, the way cruelty's results supported Furry's results looks fishy to me. Just vibes basically, as scum trying to make themselves look confirmed by helping confirm another role.

If neither of us are lying, what conclusion can you come to?

That three of the remaining four are scum.

Don_johnson and MME seem most likely, as neither your nor Furry's results support that they did not submit a kill.

[kunkstar7]

So... DJ and MME are scum because they havent been roleblocked, and then either me or cruel is scum because one of us is faking our role is your ultimate conclusion here?

No, the conclusion of DJ and MME is exclusive from you or cruelty lying. That response was to cruelty asking if neither of you were lying what would I think. That's what I would lean towards. Makes sense, since the situation would be two confirmed roles with no guilty results on two of the suspects, of course that would leave the other two as the most viable suspects.

If either of you are lying, I disbelieve cruelty's. Furry has breadcrumbs throughout and the behavior of yesterday make it a much more seemingly true claim, despite the role itself. Cruelty can just be going along with your claim at this point to protect himself.

[kunkstar7]

If its LyLo, why so quick to vote? It seems like you are automatically believing both claims. Is that so?

[kunkstar7]

As it were, I was waiting for cruelty to show up to see his response to dj's standoff.

Furry, how would you like me to confirm it? How do you have it figured out?

[kunkstar7]

I wasn't planning yet, for one I would rather avoid dj's autolynch rule and besides a claim that I feel that is fishy I haven't compiled a substantial case on him yet. His interactions with players he tracked is something that I want to review.

[kunkstar7]

Ok reread Cruelty somewhat.

My main focus was on dj's mention of him switching to Sir Chris, in regards to this quote:

most likely scenario is 3 scum. in 3 scum you are most likely guaranteed at least one power role. power roles generally can't take action and kill in the same night. which means scum team members have a 66% chance of moving at night. given the fact that cruelty claims to have gotten no movement on SC night 2, why so willing to lynch him on day 3? just seems like it goes against the odds.

This supposedly occurs on Post 918 and 948. Yet neither post contains a vote, only a single unvote (off of dj? Unsure.)

The quote by don_johnson made logical sense to me as it is in theory correct. Yet if you review Cruelty's interactions on Day 3, his main focus was on getting Heilo lynched, and only Post 918 and 948 focused on Sir Chris.

I found that both of these posts were simply just reviewing Sir Chris and looking for inconsistency in his play, anything that stood out. Cruelty specifically stated that he was not gunning for a Sir Chris lynch, and also did not at any point in these posts vote Sir Chris. He stated he was looking for connections between myself and Sir Chris, trying to get a clear read. This effectively negates that entire section of don_johnson's position against cruelty.

As such, I find cruelty's claim a bit more believable, and I'm not ready to support a cruelty lynch unless more evidence comes up. I would also like some comment from MME.


Don_johnson, while rereading Day 3 I remembered you were strongly supporting the position that Sir Chris was scum.

Why no pressing against Sir Chris today? Do you still hold anything against him?
I know we have been focusing on the claims today, but I would like to see if your opinion still holds, and if so, why are you not pressing him?

[kunkstar7]

Don't like it Kirbyoshi. You put out a vote on me without any real reasoning except that I look the scummiest out of the three. Now with Furry's case conveniently summarized you suddenly have reasoning?

Basically that postcase comes down to I'm setting up alternate lynches to myself. This is probably just WIFOM but if those were alternate lynches I pushed them pretty poorly. So why couldn't you say that before Kirbyoshi, if that's what your reasoning for me being scummy was?

[kunkstar7]

No, what I find wrong is you using someone else's case to conveniently support your own when you couldn't even give any reasoning of your own. If you don't have enough to make a coherent case then why is that enough to give a vote in this situation?

[kunkstar7]

I'm sorry town. By the last day I knew I was in a hole and I couldn't really figure out much I could do, so I basically gave up. Your gambit Furry with your roleblocker role was really well thought out, that surprised me quite honestly.