NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Wraith]

/confirm

Wow, three games in a row with Furc.

This is gonna be crazy with 24 players.

[Wraith]

Prozac, JDodge, and Furcolow make excellent cases against UA and dana especially. While I'm not totally sure about UA due to his playstyle, that last OMGUS vote sealed the deal for me against dana. However, I think we should prevent a hammer before we get enough discussion, and I'm putting it out there now that I will unvote to prevent L-1 if it comes too early for my tastes.

Vote: danakillsu

Mod, votecount please.

I'll also comment on hiphop's activity during the RVS, which I think was just a random wagon to garner reactions from anyone who jumped aboard. He can't have anything actually against me considering I've never played with him and this is my first post here.

[Wraith]

@dana: I voted for you because:

1. You voted UA because "something's not right with his self-vote" then suddenly backtrack when called out on it by saying "I was reaction fishing." BS excuse.
2. Xite made an excellent WoT pointing out all your AtE. You are flailing and despite believing your death is inevitable are making no attempt to help the town to your dying breath.
3. The OMGUS

[Wraith]

Reading further beyond that, I am even more confident in my vote. Dana is flailing, and is lashing out only at his primary accuser, and nitpicking at that. If you're town, prove it by making a meaningful contribution.

[Wraith]

Lots of reading to be done, but I want to make a comment before I finish.

FoS: hiphop

Blatant wagoning. I at least have reasons for joining the wagon, despite what everyone else thinks. You don't. I'm not letting you slip in under the radar.

Also, I've realized I'm getting tunnel vision. Gonna start concentrating on other players for now, dana has enough pressure and has slipped up enough times.

[Wraith]

WARNING: L-2

I strongly suggest we take a look at the people defending or buddying dana before we lynch. If we do in fact mislynch I'm not confident there's enough material here to find scum Day 2.

[Wraith]

UA first.

1: blank
2: offtopic
3: self-vote RVS (meta: this is his playstyle)
4: comments on self-vote
5: anti-meta comments
6: believes dana could be VI flailing
7: believes scum are lurking
8: asks clarification from JDodge
9: offtopic
10: rebuttal to JDodge
11: rebuttal o JDodge
12: rebuttal to Furcolow
13: rebuttal to Furcolow (with some fair points)
14: attack on JDodge
15: offtopic
16: offtopic
17: comments to Reckoner
18: explanation of playstyle

After doing some actual in-depth reading I fail to see anything particularly scummy about UA. As he's said, his play so far is more for attacking JDodge and his arguments than defending dana. However, his single-minded focus on what is basically a "proxy defense" is not going to work in the long run. You need to start making some real contributions.

I do have a question for UA: What exactly is the "No True Scotsman" argument you refer to?

[Wraith]

It's a hard bargain, but I think I'll believe the claim, for now.

Unvote

Sorry, meant to post more ISOs but got wrapped up in another game, then had a thing last night. Getting on a couple right now. Hiphop and Furcolow.

[Wraith]

hiphop

0: confirm
1: randomvote
2: pushes Wraith bandwagon
3: pushes Wraith bandwagon
4: pushes a bandwagon
5: humor
6: pushes Wraith bandwagon
7: pushes a bandwagon
8:

votes dana for wagon reasons

9: attacks Xite for voting dana despite suspecting Furcolow more

(hypocrisy, he votes for wagons for the sake of them being wagons)

10:

states that he votes for wagons because there are wagons

Hiphop is either blatant scum trying to slip under the radar or really dumb town who won't contribute until Day 2. His single-minded crusade for a bandwagon of some kind is unsettling.

[Wraith]

EBWOP:

FoS: hiphop

Furcolow

0: confirm
1: hello
2: name
3: player count comments
4: player count comments
5: name
6: offtopic
7: randomvote
8:

votes dana for good reasons

9: attacks dana for ad hominem, FoS UA, attacks UA for proxy defending dana
10: attacks UA
11: attacks UA for strawman
12: attacks UA for defending dana
13: attacks UA and dana
14: attacks dana
15: attacks dana for OMGUS
16: suspicious of dana, UA, and Benmage
17: cryptospeak
18: attacks dana
19: attacks dana and UA
20: rebuttal to Prozac
21: comments on suspects
22: face
23: attacks dana for strawman
24: pushes dana or UA wagon
25: attacks dana
26:

WoT attacking dana with fair points

27: requests prod for rudeboy
28: defends against Prozac
29: comments on votecount
30: attack on nhammen
31: offtopic
32: attacks nhammen
33: comments on rudeboy replacement
34: offtopic
35: attacks Xite
36: attacks dana
37: attacks Xite
38: doesn't believe cop claim

Furc's been single-mindedly focused on dana and UA pretty much the entire game, and almost all of his posts are attacks on them or restatements of his attacks. However, his cases against dana were far better than dana's cases against him. I want to see how he reacts to the cop claim and bandwagon falling apart.

Also, just because I believe the claim for now doesn'tmean my suspicions are dropped. That was some of the worst play as a cop I've seen.

IGMEOY dana

Also, I'd like to know the reason for nhammen's vote on me. To me it seems like a randomvote on page 12.

[Wraith]

hiphop

0: confirm
1: randomvote
2: pushes Wraith bandwagon
3: pushes Wraith bandwagon
4: pushes a bandwagon
5: humor
6: pushes Wraith bandwagon
7: pushes a bandwagon
8:

votes dana for wagon reasons

9: attacks Xite for voting dana despite suspecting Furcolow more

(hypocrisy, he votes for wagons for the sake of them being wagons)

10:

states that he votes for wagons because there are wagons

Hiphop is either blatant scum trying to slip under the radar or really dumb town who won't contribute until Day 2. His single-minded crusade for a bandwagon of some kind is unsettling.

while I agree with you on this, cause his pushes were for you, it just seems like an OMGUS accusation. if somebody else pointed it out it may have had more credibility

but yeah he needs to be kept an eye on but not sure he is scum, you have to remember scum wants to be under the radar as much as possible, and this isn't flying under the radar imo

His pushes for an early wagon on me were a random wagon. I analyzed him because he's getting a lot of votes now.

[Wraith]

Don't like that vote by dana, makes me believe the cop claim a little less.

Thanks for the explanation, nhammen, but can you refer me to the post you mentioned containing your original suspicions?

Also, if dana is in fact the cop, don't count on him being very useful. A game this large, there's a high chance of scum roleblocker, and an even higher chance that the claimed cop gets roleblocked each night until they find a better target.

[Wraith]

@nhammen: the comment on hiphop's random wagon wasn't meant to be defensive, it was meant to show that I didn't find it scummy or townie, but rather null.

[Wraith]

@Wicked:

1. When I noticed that I added "and the bandwagon falling apart" to the sentence. As you can see, he's continuing to push for the lynch.

2. Just because he's made a claim and I believe it (for now) doesn't mean he isn't lying. Like I said, that was some terrible cop play and a flimsy breadcrumb, but I assume that scum aren't evil masterminds that plant the seeds of future plots early on (like breadcrumbs), I assume that they improvise as they go. If he continues his scummy play, While I believe he is town for now, I'm keeping my eye on him.

[Wraith]

Damn it, there is only a 1/24 chance we hit scum today. I think there is a low chance Furcolow is one of them, and a mislynch of Furcolow would give us NOTHING. Everyone has a good reason to suspect him so if he flips town we can't really analyze the wagon as well as a normal mislynch.

[Wraith]

Also, there are what, THREE people who haven't posted yet? Anyone up for a pressure wagon on one of them? I have a strong feeling at least one of them is scum.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the three lurkers were ALL scum, and we were town fighting amongst ourselves?

[Wraith]

*confusing self with thought*

I need to take a break. I'm obviously doing things too fast (ie my ISOs, which are definitely not as good as some in my previous games).

@Xite: If I was scum with Furcolow, I would not be doing this much defending. I just think he's a bad D1 lynch. Personally I think he should vigkilled during a later night because he draws so much damn fire from everyone. It'll be very easy for the scum to manipulate the town into lynching him. I'm assuming Furcolow is town because he's too easy to lynch. If he was scum he wouldn't attract this much attention to himself. Therefore, I believe at least one or two scum are part of the "lynch Furcolow" mob.

[Wraith]

I have to think a bit. If I can get some attacks and defenses going off around me, I might be able to make a good D1 lynch, so you can get some reads when I flip. Stay tuned, I'm gonna do some scumhunting tomorrow when I get home in the evening.

[Wraith]

There are already attacks going off around you, whilst I appreciate the effort of actually playing the game, which is actually turning into a novelty...

Wait, are you about to do the lynch me now gambit I've seen you do before? Because it's a really sucky move, it would only be your opinions only and your interactions, and if your town you are distracting us from a scum lynch. Put it this way, if we were rolling a d24 dice, and lynched the corresponding number that would be between 4/5% of catching scum. If you are town and you are looking for us to lynch you, that drops 4/5%.

What I don't want is a Frank lynch, because his flip will give us nothing. However, because I don't want a Frank lynch, people are accusing me of scumbuddying with Frank. Therefore, if someone is going to be the sacrificial lamb, I'm the better lynch.

[Wraith]

What you make of it. Better than Frank. For Frank, you'll get "He was sooooooooooooo scummy," which is true. With me you can at least analyze my wagon for people who gave good reasons (town), people who gave bad reasons (wild), people who gave no reasons (scum), and people who say "he said to vote for him" (scum)

[Wraith]

Ugh, then other people need to stop attacking me for supposed "buddying" before I jump on the grenade, if that's how it actually works.

Don't LYNCH Frank. VIGKILL him. That's pretty much the gist of what I'm trying to say. Frank's scumminess is just as much a distraction as my nexus strategy.

[Wraith]

@Prozac/Xite: Stupid me, I was thinking Lightning Rod only during the day, not Nexus. Anyways, you're right, you're right, I'm being an idiot in desperation.

The problem with Frank is that his normal play is so scummy that it makes him ridiculously hard to read. Personally I think he acts like that for precisely that reason. I can't shake the gut feeling that he's savvier than people give him credit for.

[Wraith]

Oh, and Furc, if I'm giving you too much credit, please let me know.

[Wraith]

I still say a Frank lynch is stupid. I again advocate the Frank vigkill option.

[Wraith]

I wish I could explain exactly why my defense of Furcolow isn't scummy, but this will have to suffice: It's just what I do. He's a waste of a lynch.

I'm somewhat far behind and stressed the hell out. I'll catch up later.

[Wraith]

Breadcrumb spotted. It's a null-tell IMO.

[Wraith]

Didn't see anyone bring it up so I thought I'd point it out.

[Wraith]

@UA: THe breadccrumb I spotted was Xite's. I don't know why he's claiming at this point, but it's null-tell IMO. He could be scum trying to set up a future believable claim like Dana did, or he could be genuinely town. Either way, I don't think it should affect anyone's reads on him much.

[Wraith]

Okay, catching up some more, I'm losing faith in my defense of Furcolow faster and faster, especially with the scumslip post Wicked pointed out. TBH however, I think it can be safe to believe there's a possibility that there are two scum groups, considering the size of the game, but I suppose the scumminess of that comment comes from the certainty. Also, lynching the claimed cop is STUPID no matter how you look at it. If we're trying to avoid lynching our power roles I think we're better off lynching you, because you've denied my wild speculation that you're a PR playing VI to avoid a nightkill. Even if we don't lynch, he draws a nightkill or at least a roleblock, if there is a scum roleblocker. Better for him to die at night and given a chance than struck down by the town after he's claimed. I'm also doubting myself over Furcolow because of his continued ultra-scummy play, specifically his jumping onto the most popular wagon whenever he sees it. I believe he's on the hiphop wagon now?

I think I was going to say something else but I forgot. Got too caught up in the WIFOM going on in my head about Frank.

[Wraith]

However, I'll add that either way I think me voting Frank will end up as a lose-lose for me. I'll immediately get hit by a wall of bussing accusations, and if he flips scum I'll probably be the Day 2 lynch. If I vote for him and he flips town, I'll still probably get lynched Day 2 for suddenly flip-flopping on my stance and joining his very popular wagon. But whatever, I don't really care, because my lynch would save a PR from being mislynched. I still honestly think lynching Frank is a bad idea in the long run, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Vote: Frank

[Wraith]

@Xite: Yes, I'm running really slow right now. Considering how fast the posts here pile up and that I'm absent most of the day during the weekdays (I have the day off today, hallelujah) I'm slow to catch up and I've been doing a lot of skimming.

[Wraith]

Argh, I hate simulposting. I've addressed that inevitability in my 516, so whatever. Keep hunting me.

[Wraith]

DavidParker - my nemesis from Newbie 965 *shakes fist*

We must policy lynch this scum [/sarcasm]

[Wraith]

I could support a Furcolow lynch. There are several good reasons to lynch him:

*Recently his posting in the last few pages has looked very bad.

*He is an annoying distraction imo.

*His lynch will provide a lot of information.

*He's claimed to be a Vanilla Townie and bandwagoning somebody else to a claim might not be a good idea today.

...However, I am not ready to end the day yet. Also, I think Wraith is town. I don't want to lynch him.

I'll clarify/restate why I want to lynch him. My reasons are similar to Wicked's. Bolded are my reasons I agree with. He has only been bandwagoning and parroting practically the whole despite my attempts to defend his naturally scummy play. I feel that if people are using those reasons to wagon him he should be changing his play to a more pro-town style, but he hasn't. The second I have stated many times, although I believed we should vig kill him instead, because of the reason slashed out, which I disagree with. I've already said that I believe his lynch won't provide any info, unless he does in fact flip scum. If he flips town everyone on the wagon can say "I voted for him because he was scummy" which is a true/believable statement considering his play. I don't think we can look at anyone on this wagon aside from myself and analyze whether they were bussing/using craplogic to mislynch Furc.

[Wraith]

THe problem is that Xite has been trying, or appears to have been trying. You haven't, you have just been a distraction. TBH I think that when you're gone there will be less one-liners/spam to wade through and less rage against the Furc that is clouding everyone's scumdars.

[Wraith]

How about this: If you flip town, I'll take a chunk of time out to make a study on Xite. If you flip scum, I'll just check to see if Xite might have been bussing.

And it's far too early for one mislynch to destroy the town's hopes, even if you'r a PR (which I suspect you're trying to imply). If you're a PR you've played it terribly and you need to change up your play for future games.

The AtE also doesn't help.

Preview Edit: You have to try to not appear to be scum, an effort from you which has been dismal.

[Wraith]

And also, IMO the scum don't HAVE to try. The more scum post, the more likely they are to slip up. A scum player who tries to manipulate the town takes a huge risk and is confident in his skills to appear townie. A lurker scum or a scum that only posts once in while with little to say is more common IMO.

[Wraith]

@bunnylover: What Xite didn't mention about WIFOM is that it's almost always bad, because it just confuses and convolutes things, and therefore it is often used by scum.

[Wraith]

unvote:
vote: bunnylover

you are bandwagonning scum

If really want to prove your innocence, you need to stop doing blatant and stupid OMGUS like this. Almost every time someone new votes for you you change your vote to them.

[Wraith]

Just got in to see the DP clusterfuck. Either way, that claim was a really, really bad idea. First, on his vote for dana:

-I highly doubt the scum would vote for the claimed cop at this point. There is no wagon, and suspicion instantly falls on them. It's a lose-lose, and it's much easier to just RB or nightkill.

-On DP's claim, I think he is lying, but that is based purely on meta. DP was in my first newbie game, and as a VT he fakeclaimed cop in an attempt to draw the first nightkill. Unfortunately for him, I was a scum roleblocker and blocked him to be safe, and he seriously screwed up the next day by lying twice about his not having a result, which directly caused his lynch. HOWEVER, I will point out that it is entirely possible for a game this size to have two cops.

-Now, even if DP IS a cop and believes dana is lying, the claim at this point was immensely stupid. I guarantee that there is at least one Doctor in this game, and now he/she will be forced to choose between protecting Dana or David. To add insult to injury, one could feasibly be scum fakeclaiming. To put salt in the wound, I am certain that one of these players will be dead come Day 2. A counterclaim would have been MUCH more productive in a much later day, when the number of players is narrowed down, flips have been made to show associations, and when results can coincide with flips to confirm a cop.

While I've said it was very, very stupid, I don't think DP is scum. I think he's a VT again attempting his strategy of drawing a nightkill from a power role.

[Wraith]

To conclude the above: I urge the doctor, whoever he is, to protect dana instead.

[Wraith]

Personally I think the mafia (or maybe the SK if there is one?) will kill one of them just to be safe, unless they know the role/alignment of one of them.

[Wraith]

If we start a WIFOM battle between anyone I will drown everyone in it. So no, let's not do it, and move away from the VI to finishing this day.

[Wraith]

Yeah, singer called that one perfectly. I still think we should lynch Frank, and just let the night actions give us info about these cop claims. Depending on what happens, we can pressure dana or Parker D2.

BULLSHIT
IT WAS MY CASE ON DANA
IM OBVIOUSLY TOWN IF HES SCUM

Not necessarily. There's always the possibility you're trying for a very early bussing gambit. However, Furcolow has a point on one thing: Whatever he flips, dana is still a toss-up; whatever dana flips, Furcolow is more likely to be the opposite alignment.

[Wraith]

Just because Furcolow has been pushing for the lynch. There's no way to confirm you unless an actual (sane) second cop (if there is one) posts an innocent result, or until you're dead and flip. Your flip gives a much better read on Furcolow than his flip does for you.

However, the fact of the matter is that we're lynching Furcolow, not you, so we'll just have to make do with what we get.

[Wraith]

Enough on the subject, we're getting into WIFOM territory.

[Wraith]

Would it help if I admitted I breadcrumbed doctor?

u claimed VT and now you want to change it to DR

you call me scummy?

This.

[Wraith]

Furcolow is attacking Robbnva for this reason. I think someone else mentioned it too but I don't remember who/where.

[Wraith]

Ouch, that's a hard subject I've heard.

[Wraith]

Just want to say I knew DavidParker was lying. At least his gambit worked this time. Lynch me if you will, but if you are I'm not expending any effort to defend myself. I'm tired of getting lynched as town and want to move on.

I haven't liked ConfidAnon's play. So that's where my vote goes.

Vote: ConfidAnon

[Wraith]

Choo choo, all aboard the wagon to Mislynch Station!

[Wraith]

Unvote Vote: Wraith

This is a test.

[Wraith]

@wicked: You probably remembereed wrong, but I don't really care. If you are so sure that I am scum then lynch me. I dare you.

[Wraith]

Hmmm. I honestly expected more.

Unvote

IGMEOY, Mysterio.

[Wraith]

IMO at the moment ConfidAnon and Mysterio are wagoning scum. There might be another on the wagon, too. I'll talk some more later.

[Wraith]

ConfidAnon

I don't like his 228. It's pretty much fence-sitting against dana and Furcolow and tunneling against me. He makes me out as scum based almost entirely on word choice.

I find it funny that I was originally attacked for "bandwagoning dana" (despite clearly explaining several times what my reasons were) but ConfidAnon gets away with voting dana for flimsy reasons in 232. He has outlined that he believed dana was VI in 228, and votes dana "because it's inevitable anyway." That's just a fancy way of saying "Oh look at this nice bandwagon I can slip onto under the radar."

Allow me to repeat that I was attacked my multiple people for "blatant bandwagoning" on dana and "parroting other peoples' cases." Let's look at ConfidAnon's 236:

I found danakillsu scummy for the plethora of points mentioned by others. I didn't feel the need to mention them because I didn't want an unneccessarily long post. Walls which repeat thing clutter the thread. Probably should have put a statement like this in the original post, my apologies. Was rushing to get it out tehre.

The above was a response to an FoS by wickedestjr, who seems to be the only one calling out the scum in this game. I clearly stated my reasons, this is CA blatantly stating that he parroting. Yet, no objections from Porochaz or Xite? How "strange"...

I'll point out nhammen's 318. Through half that post he made a WoT case against me and agrees with ConfidAnon. Scumteam setting up a mislynch bandwagon.

In CA's 389 he first points out that he doesn't think Furc is scum, yet then outlines Furc's scummy actions, notably the AtE and Furc's constant pressure on a claimed cop. Smells of setting up bandwagon justification. The rest of his post is dedicated to attacking me, and he attacks me based on "fence-sitting." I was committing to my reads at first based on recklessness and lack of reading, but doing the ISOs gave me a better idea of those people. He attacks me for not believing the claim. Until someone is confirmed there is no reason NOT to doubt the claim. Dana's play was terrible before and after the claim and it made me doubt it. It's one of the flimsier claims I've seen in my time here. Lastly, he attacks me based on my opinion of Furcolow's meta. Furcolow is naturally an extremely scummy player and almost always turns out to be VI. So why should I think he's scum if I'm pretty confident he's a VI?

Also, I would like to pose a question to dana I don't has been asked or asnwered yet:

Dana, what was your investigation result last night?

To me, CA's 434 is golden. To defend his insistence that I am scum, he goes back and reverses his opinions: AtE is nulltell and insistence is towntell, despite having attacked Furc for those things in 389. Yet, didn't he attack me in 389 for insistence on dana's scumminess despite the claim? Hmmm...

In nhammen's 539 he states total agreement with CA's case against me.

During Day 2 he has stated that my "blatant OMGUS" because I don't like CA's play is for terrible reasons and makes me scum. Let's again mention CA's initial wagon vote on dana for "other people stated my reasons" reasons.

As for my vote on Frank, I stated my reasons, and I stated why that would probably get my lynch. That's what I get for trying to defend the idiot that digs his own grave. CA is just pushing a wagon on an easy target.

I'm going to look at Mysterio, Xite, and nhammen next, with Prozac added in if I'm not too tired.

[Wraith]

Myterio

In his third post, Mysterio makes a terrible, seemingly random vote against JDodge for scumhunting.

In his fifth, he puts a vote on the growing dana wagon for "failing to prove Furc is scum." This is just him grabbing at a reason to slip onto the wagon. Someone "failing to make a case against someone" is not worth a vote alone. He also claims that dana's reply was worthless, even though the reply referred him to dana's reasons for voting Furc.

He goes on to make several posts defending his flimsy reason for wagoning.

In his Post 11 he votes Frank for tunneling the claimed cop. Let's keep in mind that CA also stated Frank was scummy for tunneling the claimed cop (and later claimed that such insistence was a towntell) but didn't vote for him. Scum trying to keep their options open.

His later posts on Day 1 are him defending Prozac, who is another player that has been jumping around bandwagons all game.

In his Post 17, first one for Day 2, he immeidately jumps on the closest, most popular wagon, me, for "anti-town actions" that he fails to explain. Let's go back a day and remember that he originally voted dana for "failing to explain" his own reasons for suspecting Furcolow. Contradictions, opportunistic voting. Similar arguments to CA, defending Prozac. In his latest post he states how he suspected me in Post 444, but in that post he fails to state why he finds me suspicious. He has never stated why he finds me suspicious and is wagoning based on the cases of his scumbuddies.

At this point, I think the scumteam is CA/Prozac/Mysterio/nhammen, maybe with a fifth member. We'll see.

[Wraith]

nhammenscum was a surprise to me, but it provides a lot of juicy hints as to who his scumbuddies are (CA and Myterio, maybe Prozac)

In his first WoT he states:

Unvote
Vote: JDodge

Way too sure of his reads this early in the game when half the players haven't even posted yet.

Interesting thought Mysterio. I didn't see this, but you could be right. Except, isn't it surety about Town reads that is usually the scumtell? Also, noted for future reference.

Scumbuddies in agreement. In the same post he starts setting up the mislynch wagon on me by accusing me of "overdefensiveness" for stating my opinion on Hiphop's random wagon. I was in no way defending myself against any accusations my hiphop, I was stating that I believed hiphop's wagon was random. Nhammen was fishing for reasons to mislynch me.

It's funny, because in this post:

Actually, dana has plenty of pressure. He can go without my vote on him for a bit. But those questions still better be answered.

UNVOTE: dana
VOTE: bunnylove

Start giving opinions.

nhammen unvotes dana because he has "plenty of pressure." Yet here:

Lots of reading to be done, but I want to make a comment before I finish.

FoS: hiphop Blatant wagoning. I at least have reasons for joining the wagon, despite what everyone else thinks. You don't. I'm not letting you slip in under the radar.

Also, I've realized I'm getting tunnel vision. Gonna start concentrating on other players for now, dana has enough pressure and has slipped up enough times.

Mainly gut, but this post I feel is very scummy. Although, the last line further enforces the wraith/dana scumteam idea.

CA attacks me for doing the same minus the unvote of dana. Where's the same accusation against nhammen, CA? Oh wait, he's your scum partner, that's why.

In nhammen's post 5 he states that dana and I are his top two scumreads. The most he had posted against me was a single sentence about how I was "overdefensive" against a randomwagon I knew was random. Obviously stating this to support a future mislynch with CA and Mysterio.

In his Post 7 nhammen attacks me for "blatant wagoning" on dana despite me stating my reasons. He also says:

Your reasons were "oh these other guys made great arguments!" That is also blatant wagoning.

Let's look at a CA post:

I found danakillsu scummy for the plethora of points mentioned by others. I didn't feel the need to mention them because I didn't want an unneccessarily long post. Walls which repeat thing clutter the thread. Probably should have put a statement like this in the original post, my apologies. Was rushing to get it out tehre.

No objection to that, more blatant "these others guys made great points" reasoning, nhammen? Oh wait, that's because CA is your scumbuddy.

In the same post nhammen completely agrees with CA's attacks against me.

Also, I'd like to know the reason for nhammen's vote on me. To me it seems like a randomvote on page 12.

Ummm... when unvoted Bunny and went back to dana, I said that it was between dana and you. I gave my reasons earlier. Not random in the slightest.

I'll restate that the most reason he gave for voting me was one point of false "overdefensiveness." He later used CA's reasons as his own, stating that they were why he voted me in the first place. Retroactive casemaking, with the help of a buddy. Blatant scumtell. I didn't notice it then because I wasn't reading a lot.

In his post 10 he restates how he completely agrees with CA's case against me.

[Wraith]

Xite is very, very town at the moment, and the only scumpoints I can bring against him are his insistence that I am scum no matter what I do. He insisted I was scum when I defended Frank (who flipped town, mind you), insisted I was scum when I brought up the possibility of lynching myself, and insisted I was scum when I reluctantly voted Frank and told everyone he would probably flip town anyway (and I was right, mind you). Beyond that, the only reason I think the town should suspect him is if he lives to the endgame. A player that townie never lasts unless he is protected.

[Wraith]

Basically, I was fed up with him not changing his attitude despite that I was drawing craploads of flak on myself to defend him. I believed he was town solely on meta, but otherwise his play screamed "scum!" Hoewver, I'll admit that I believed he was town to the end, but he's probably the hardest player to read, ever, simply because of how scummy he plays. It was a toss-up on how he would flip, but I guessed correctly in the end.

[Wraith]

Uh... Wraith... how could you miss it? It's been discussed endlessly. I investigated my cop cc, DP, and found he was innocent.

Sorry, I remember I did see it but I forgot.

[Wraith]

Whatever, guys. Guys, when I flip town, lynch CA first.

[Wraith]

Hey, how about you flip me and find that I'm town before you start lynching the only sane man in this town.

[Wraith]

I'm not asking you to investigate because you're all probably going to lynch. But if you by chance don't lynch me, then by all means, yes investigate me. I'm just saying that wicked is the only sane townie in the game right now and you shouldn't go after him until you find my alignment. Which is town.

[Wraith]

How about I go out on a limb and say CA, Mysterio, and maybe Prozac are scum? You're using WIFOM - bad.

[Wraith]

To go out into the realm of wild speculation, consider this:

ConfidAnon is town. Nhammen was buddying CA. Xite is scum and is buddying up to CA.

It's a stretch and not my top theory, but it's a possibility.

[Wraith]

Because you should totally just lynch the guy who wants to be lynched. That's smart in any game. Whatever, I've made my cases, lynch me now so I don't have to waste anymore time here.

[Wraith]

This day is a scumteam's dream come true. They have an easy target to wagon and can refute anything I say by saying "Oh look at that flailing obvscum."

Hey town, look at me, I'm scum. Lynch me. Stop sitting on your pointy iron fences and vote me.

[Wraith]

Also, I'd like people to take my scumhunting seriously instead of saying "Oh his smart posts are instantly nullified because he's obvscum."

[Wraith]

In reference to that above post, town, pay some additional attention to anyone who votes me while dismissing my cases against CA and Mysterio.

[Wraith]

Add another to my "sane townspeople list." The count is at two.

Anyways, I've pointed out who I think is scum. Lynch me plaese before I make even more of a fool out of myself.

[Wraith]

@UA: Don't worry, I only add people when they tear apart the wagon against for precisely the right reasons. At the moment 883 is the smartest damn post in this game.

And no, dana, I'm not going to claim. The town can lynch if they want, but they'll have to do it without knowing what I am until it's too late.

[Wraith]

Also I've kind of implied what I am a few times so I shouldn't need to claim.

[Wraith]

Haha. Bye bye CA. You're going to get lynched now.

[Wraith]

My opinion on Xite:

His personality is one of an extremely paranoid townie who also has a gun. But a townie. (No I'm not speculating his role)

[Wraith]

Was the daykill fake? I'm confused.

[Wraith]

I can't understand how you all can still believe I'm scum after all the smart posts made in my defense by people like Wicked and Shanba. But if you all want to be gullible, be my guest.

[Wraith]

Lol. Here's the case against me: "Bakaw! Wraith is obvscum! Wraith is obvscum! Bakaw! Bakaw!"

Prove me wrong: How about everyone on my wagon state their reasons for voting me.

[Wraith]

Ugh, labor day and work are going to push any content from me back to tomorrow.

I apologize.

Only scum work on Labor Day /notserious

[Wraith]

965 was by far my best game because I managed to manipulate the town successfully. In all my town games (which I'm dead in) every time I opened my mouth I was immediately piled upon by the scum and town, which is why I've seemed pissed off this entire day, because this would be the third damn time in a row it's happened to me.

[Wraith]

I asked to be hammered several times because I figured the cause was lost (especially since everything I said was being turned against me) and preferred not to spend any more attention on a lost cause. I wanted the town to quit focusing on a massive distraction, get the definitive info they needed, and start lynching the real scum.

[Wraith]

Hang on, since when did "pushing your own mislynch" become a scumtell? Just because I said "screw it" and started acting like an asshole doesn't mean I'm evil scum.

[Wraith]

Gorrad and Robbvna have been using more and more circuitous logic in their case against me, culminating in:

going off what gorrad said, trying to get town points would be the same as trying to look town, which is scummy

According to this, everyone is scum, because scumhunting can be classified as "trying to look town." As well as "trying to get lynched." For all you know I'm a Jester. "As well as defending oneself" because apparently town don't do that.

[Wraith]

@flinter: I think I'll take you up on that. I have homework tonight but if I find the time tonight or tomorrow I'll elaborate on Mysterio's last few posts and put up a WoT on Robbvna.

[Wraith]

I'm going to put out a summary post of my suspicions real quick:

-I'm pretty certain Mysterio is scum

-I believe one of Gorrad or Robbnva is scum and the other is a buddied townie. At the moment I'm more inclined toward RobbnvaScum, but out of my 3-4 top suspects none of them are the "dominant scum partner" personality that is always seen. Gorrad could possibly be that "DSP" because of how forward he is with his tunneling

-I'm suspicious of Prozac. I think someone said earlier that he has the personality of a Mafia Godfather which I think is plausible. He's been staying in the background while posting tunnels against top suspects that seem somewhat overly non-commital to me. His posts brinigng up my meta are plausibly town trying to prevent a mislynch but it is equally plausible that he is scum distancing himself from a mislynch that two of his partners are on.

[Wraith]

To clarify on the "Dominant Scum Partner" personality I referred to:

In almost every game I've read or played in, there is always at least one "Dominant Scum Personality" while the rest are either less experienced/skilled partners or fade into the background on purpose. I'll use my play in Newbie 965 as an example. In that game, I was the DSP, where I actively posted "scumhunting" and made cases convincing enough to cause two mislynches. A good DSP will usually read as townie until either two things occur:

1. He successfully busses a partner and gains major town cred
2. The series of mislynches he orchestrated turns the town against him

The SSP (Submissive Scum Partner(s)) will usually sit on a fence and try to seem as convincingly "confused town following the scumhunter's lead" as possible to avoid suspicion. They'll seem like reckless townies who bought the DSP's convincing mislynch cases.

[Wraith]

That's the problem - it's rather difficult to do, definitively at least, until endgame. However, once you weed out the lurkers who actually aren't doing anything and the actual pro-town scumhunters, you can usually make accurate conclusions as to who they are. Like I said, SSPs are usually overly non-commital, overcautious, try to remain inconspicious, and often don't attempt to make any meaningful contribution beyond "he makes good points that's where my votes going." In short, an SSP attempts to join a bandwagon "under the radar" and make it look like he voted that wagon for a valid reason.

[Wraith]

Dana, if you're really the cop, investigate me tonight. Now that people are actually realizing that my wagon is bogus, and that I'm being given a chance to post freely without everyone jumping on me for being scum, I might just be able to live today.

[Wraith]

Mysterio

(First half is copy-paste because I'm lazy)

In his third post, Mysterio makes a terrible, seemingly random vote against JDodge for scumhunting.

In his fifth, he puts a vote on the growing dana wagon for "failing to prove Furc is scum." This is just him grabbing at a reason to slip onto the wagon. Someone "failing to make a case against someone" is not worth a vote alone. He also claims that dana's reply was worthless, even though the reply referred him to dana's reasons for voting Furc.

He goes on to make several posts defending his flimsy reason for wagoning.

In his Post 11 he votes Frank for tunneling the claimed cop. Let's keep in mind that CA also stated Frank was scummy for tunneling the claimed cop (and later claimed that such insistence was a towntell) but didn't vote for him. Scum trying to keep their options open.

His later posts on Day 1 are him defending Prozac, who is another player that has been jumping around bandwagons all game.

In his Post 17, first one for Day 2, he immeidately jumps on the closest, most popular wagon, me, for "anti-town actions" that he fails to explain. Let's go back a day and remember that he originally voted dana for "failing to explain" his own reasons for suspecting Furcolow. Contradictions, opportunistic voting. Similar arguments to CA, defending Prozac. In his latest post he states how he suspected me in Post 444, but in that post he fails to state why he finds me suspicious. He has never stated why he finds me suspicious and is wagoning based on the cases of his scumbuddies.

In his Post 19, he continues to push my lynch even after I was "daykilled" by Xite. At that point most people (including myself) believed the daykill was genuine. Evidence of Mysterio tunneling the easy target without even considering any other options. Here's a meta-insert from me: Most scum I've seen, especially SSPs, typically tunnel one target at a time, only switching off when the wagon on the target is falling apart or an easier target appears. I've found it rather rare to have scum that do their fake scumhunting on multiple targets, probably because that can get rather risky when you have to fabricate evidence.

I'm starting to wonder why he believes there is "NO" chance of a flinter lynch. He uses wicked's vote on flinter against him as a "throw-away vote." To me, this is scum fabricating flimsy evidence against an obviously townie player.

In his post 25 he suggests that scum derailed my wagon. This is highly unlikely. For one, the wagon is weaker, but it's still strong enough to still carry the day. Secondly, if I was scum, it would be incredibly stupid for my supposed scumbuddies to bail me out at that point. A bus on me would have made the votecount analysis cloudy, because a poor vote reason among many is good cover. In fact, I would have subtly encouraged a bus on me via my own posting of gallons of WIFOM in an attempt to lay down a smokescreen for my scumbuddies to slip on. I attempted this is Mini 1026 but unfortunately one of my teammates didn't catch on and the wagon derailed onto our DSP which was disastrous.

In Posts 26 and 27 he pushes the idea of a Wraith/Flinter scumteam. These are the opening moves of setting up the next mislynch. He is confident that I am scum. What I can't understand, though, is that he knows I'm town, so when I flip town, wouldn't that put a big wrench in your plans. Here's a thought: Mysterio knows he's a dead man. If I'm lynched, I flip town and he dies Day 3. He's trying for one final effort to push my wagon over the edge, taking at least one town down with him. Let's also consider that only 5 or so (of his) posts ago, he was strongly convinced of flinter's towniness. There is the possibility that this is scum trying to distance himself from a partner before being lynched.

Also in Post 27, while he entertains the possibility that flinter is scum, he refuses to vote for her. Fencesitting much? And then he goes on to state that I am a scummy distraction and shouldn't be in LyLo even if I was town. Wanting to lynch someone who could possibly be town = scummy.

Like I've said, I'm probably 90% certain that Mysterio is scum. I believe my vote is still on CA, so:

Unvote Vote: Mysterio

[Wraith]

jakdshfjdsklhfjkadsgkljghkfgajgd;ladsfnlg fucking internet destroyed my first case now I have to redo it.j dkbfJDSK HFADSKLHTADSKLHJGKF

Robbnva

In his Post 2, he immediately begins attacking me (who at that point was one of the top three scum suspects) by discrediting my case against hiphop with craplogic:

but yeah he needs to be kept an eye on but not sure he is scum, you have to remember scum wants to be under the radar as much as possible, and this isn't flying under the radar imo

He was until I called him out on it. He's attempting to discredit my case by stating hiphop isn't flying under the radar, because I'm catching him in the act.

as much as I hate to admit it, i don't think furccolow is mafia either, but again my radar could be wrong.

This is his Post 4. Remember this for later.

Big scumtell, Post 14:

my vote is on frank right now, he is by far the safest vote after outing a PR, since he is only a townie with no powers.

While I understand his reasons, they are crap reasons. Outing PRs Day 1 might seem bad, but it:

1. Puts more confirmed townies up, and therefore trusted votes/cases
2. Narrows down the base for "possible scum"

The scum can only kill one at a time, and by then you'll be able to smoke out the scum from a smaller base. It's why people hate early massclaims and don't massclaim until it seems necessary, because it pretty much breaks the game.

This line in Post 19 just rubs me the wrong way:

frank has even been scummy.

This might be nitpicking word choice, but to me it comes off as a "secondary reason" for lynching Frank, as if he's trying to say either "We need to lynch this guy NOW. Oh also he's scum" or "Frank's even scummy, it's the icing on the cake for this lynch"

Big scumtell, Post 28:

I think the first people we need to look at are the people who avoided the frank bandwagon, in my mind it is those people who have a better chance of being mafia.

This SCREAMS to me scum trying to shift suspicion away from his scumbuddies. I bet you my life (in this game) that at least 2 scum were on the Frank wagon. You're using WIFOM as well, because the overwhelming majority of scum players get on almost every town mislynch wagon. Without scum on a mislynch it's extremely hard to pull off because actual townies are as willingly gullible.

Robb first votes for me in Post 38. His sole reasoning for this is "I don't like his reaction to his wagon." Keep this in mind.

Post 41, craplogic:

Mafia wants to do multiple things.

1. Avoid suspicion at all costs
2. Stay active in scum hunting to blend in
3. Not be anywhere near a quick lynch

Points 2 and 3 contradict Point 1. As scum, you either take the lead or you lie low. I've pointed this out with my DSP/SSP scum psychology theory.

In Post 43, he starts discrediting what little town cred I had left, and also lies:

I will say going back reading wraith's posts, the one post that really seemed odd was wraith telling the doc(whoever that is) to protect dana

1. I don't think ANYONE actually beleived DP
2. Seemed like a way to ensure the doc was on dana, since DP died it allowed a mafia kill to go through

1. You did
2. This is massive WIFOM, for one. Second, I urged the doc to protect the claim I believed, not the one I didn't, which is not scummy, in fact the opposite. Thirdly, I would not have shot DP night 2. A lying townie is a PERFECT target for a mislynch wagon, especially when DP would have come up with nothing and probably been lynched today. I would have shot Xite or Wickedest and roleblocked Dana, because Xite and Wickedest are the two most-townie reads I had at that point.

way to talk without actually saying anything.

I make a valid reason why I suspect wraith and than you fos me, sounds like a load of crap to me

This is retroactive casemaking, which is a MAJOR, MAJOR scumtell to me. Retroactive casemaking is when scum vote for a target for poor reasons (in your case "Wraith is scum because he reacts poorly to his wagon), then discrediting that person's future actions, and finally claiming that those discredited actions were the "valid reasons" you voted for that person in the first place. Scum do not have to do that, town cite specific examples in their scumhunting.

Post 48:

ok going back and reading ConfidAnon's posts, about 80% of them are focused on pushing a lynch on wraith or trying to bring attention towards wraith being scum. he doesn't really focus on anyone else after his obvious bandwagon vote on dana, he doesn't vote frank cause he doesn't think he is scummy, even after he notices frank changing his claim of what he is.

Accusing CA of tunneling despite doing the exact same thing. CA, however, has actual evidence and scumhunting to back up his claims, however misguided they are. Setting up a possible future mislynch wagon.

Post 49:

2. you will be wasting your time making a case on me, unless you really are scum.

Apparently anyone who investigates Robb is scum.

That's what I got from two pages of Robb's ISO. I'm not even done yet. But right now I'm tired, especially since I had to do this damn thing twice, so I'll finish later.

[Wraith]

Wow, amazing. My two WoTs were COMPLETELY ignored. Especially by my primary suspects and wagoneers.

@dana: If Xite was my scumpartner and bussing me then laying off all of a sudden was the stupidest decision, ever. My bus was in the bag, Xite's major town cred was assured...Oh wait. I'm town, Xite's town, and you're being an idiot. Open your eyes, read my damn WoTs, and tell me what you think.

[Wraith]

It's fucking hilarious: "Oh all he's doing is flailing he must be scum. What are those, WoT scumhunting posts? Maybe I'll read th-oh wait Wraith wrote them. That's a paradox, he's scum, he can't scumhunt. They don't exist."

[Wraith]

This is what I'm talking about. Every single thing I do is scum in their eyes. I'll take a leaf from your book.

Why are you avoiding the questions? Have something to hide?

[Wraith]

EBWOP: And let's not forget to mention the "I play based on OMGUS" at the end there

[Wraith]

Well, he refuses to make a counterpost, so what we have here is a perfect circle of excuse and counter-excuse.

[Wraith]

Sorry if I was really snappy last night, had a bad day and having my work ignored really didn't help.

Anyways, back to business. Xite, considering this is a large game I'm thinking there's a 4-man mafia at least. One is dead, of course, and because of that I'm fairly positive there's an SK. I'm discounting the possibility of a second mafia because nhammen's flip was simply "mafia goon" and not "red mafia goon" or something. At the moment, my belief on the scumteam is this:

nhammen/Mysterio/Robbnva/Prozac

nhammen was very much a DSP, so we're really lucky the SK chose to kill him. Robbnva and Mysterio are very much SSPs, because they're attempting to keep to the background while trying to keep a mislynch wagon going by discrediting the target piecemeal. Prozac is a tougher call, but my theory ties into your belief that scum would not be so easy to spot together in a large game. I believe Prozac is a mafia power role attempting to distance himself from a failing wagon and flailing scum partners, which is smart. If Prozac isn't the last partner, I'd be somewhat surprised, and after Prozac I'd have to bet on Gorrad as a second DSP.

For now, though, we need to lynch Mysterio. Mysterio's very likely scumflip will give us a lot of needed info and probably change the tune of some buddied townies, which I'm more inclined to believe Gorrad is.

Mod, vote count and deadline please.

[Wraith]

Nobody has figured out my claim yet? I've implied like fifty times that I'm just a VT.

[Wraith]

Robb isn't 99% probably scum, only about 75% probable scum. Mysterio is the lynch for today.

[Wraith]

Wraith, if deadline approaches, will you self-hammer (or vote, if you don't have enough votes to be at L-1) if no one else does?

Might as well.

[Wraith]

Okay, I'd like to hear the following peoples' justifications for still being on my wagon, right now:

Benmage
Dana
Bunnylover
Reck

Gorrad has made it abundantly clear why he's still voting me, Mysterio is scum, and CA is being replaced. You others have no excuses.

[Wraith]

I'd like to point this out for the town to see:

THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS BELIEVE BOTH XITE AND SHANBA ARE TOWN. NOTICE THAT THE TWO PLAYERS (BESIDES ME) THAT ARE CONSIDERED THE SCUMMIEST ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO BOTH PUSH MY WAGON AND SET UP MISLYNCHES ON TWO OBVTOWN PLAYERS.
'
The wrench in their plan is that when I flip town they are monumentally screwed.

Two days to deadline, let's finish this.

Unvote Vote: Wraith

[Wraith]

I want to address dana's last post specifically as well. Note this: When I flip town, I guarantee your read of Xite as scum will immediately reverse, and there will be a high chance he dies tonight. You still have failed to post a reason for voting me beyond "what a great bandwagon"

[Wraith]

Robb and Mysterio are such incredibly obvious scum at this point. Lynch me, get your trustable views, and then KILL ROBB. KILL MYSTERIO.

Those'll probably be my last words in this game because I'm pretty sure I'll be dead by morning. Peace!

[Wraith]

Because he obviously changed his mind based on my play.

You're a dead man tomorrow, or Day 4. I guarantee it.

[Wraith]

Unvote Vote: Mysterio

I have no idea what kind of defense Robb is pulling. He is attempting to discredit Xite for going after a "pro-town" player when there is very little in his favor that makes him town.

[Wraith]

I've found fake daykills/hammers to be towntells. The scum have no reason to reaction fish on someone they're about to lynch.

[Wraith]

Robb is attempting to down us in craplogic. Don't listen to him, let's finish the wagon on Mysterio.

So everyone can see:

DEADLINE IS TOMORROW. COMMIT TO YOUR WAGON. NOW.

[Wraith]

FoS: Prozac

Further confirms my suspicions of a smart scum player.. He is voting for me despite believing I am town due to meta.

[Wraith]

Wicked was so obvtown I'm surprised he wasn't killed earlier.

I'm starting to get serious scumcop vibes from dana.

More later.

[Wraith]

Okay, I had my suspicions of dana as Day 2 dragged on, mostly revolving around the fact that he never really had a reason for voting me beyond what everyone else said, and avoided the question TWICE when I put it to him. This post is what pushed me over the edge:

Inno on Xite was my result. I didn't investigate Wraith because I figured it would be too obvious and scum might be able to affect it somehow (like a lawyer or framer). So I wish to lynch Wraith like we should have yesterday. vote: Wraith

Let me get this straight: you didn't want to investigate me (and therefore prove my innocence) because you thought a scum framer could frame me? And then you want to lynch me anyway despite thinking the MAFIA would frame me?

Vote: danakillsu

[Wraith]

Holy crap did I just get accused of tunneling by the guy who has done nothing else for the last day and a bit but tunnel on wraith?

Let me put this simply. Wraith is a terrible lynch. Frankly I'm simply astonished that you are so convinced by it - I literally cannot understand your viepoint. Like, at all. Frank was not a great lynch either. Both are simply players playing badly. Prozac is a player comitting scumtells. This is a

clear and obvious difference

. And you're a good player, so what in the name of Woden's Beard is going on?

He's a scummy claimed vanilla who has come very close to lynch. And if our mysterious second killer was going to do the honor, he would have last night. The only way Wraith is going to die is by lynch, and if we put it off we're only delaying the inevitable.

And this? Clear bullshit. We should lynch him because scum won't kill him? Seriously? Are you even listening to yourself any more? ARGH this game.

1) Yes. You're tunneling. I'm doing some as well, sure, but I'm also looking hard at Robb.

2) I don't see these scumtells. I honestly don't. I see Wraith, who has actively detracted from the town since D1. If he was bad town, he'd be like Mysterio (and yes, Frank) and trying to contribute.

3) Bunny has it right. As long as he is not lynched, he's going to be a scummy distraction. He's going to continue to be a detriment to the town. There is no way short of cop confirmation that he will be cleared. If he's not lynched today, he'll be a distraction tomorrow. Repeat ad nauseum. Way to misrepresent me, dude.

The problem with that is that the claimed cop refuses to investigate me when he has the chance and then wants to lynch me. I think it's pretty clear what the scum setup probably is: Goon, Roleblocker, Godfather. Maybe a second goon or dana being ScumCop. First, votecount analysis:

Votecount 1.4

danakillsu [11] (Shanba, Prozac, Benmage, JDodge, Frank, Wraith, Mysterio, hiphop, nhammen, singersigner, ConfidAnon)
Frank [2] (danakillsu, Xite)
mysterio [2] (flinter, WickedestJr)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UA)
Benmage [1] (Reck)

Not Voting [7] (robbnva, seth, Johnny Rotten, Orochi, Sebguer, Bunnylover, Kise)

24 alive, 13 to lynch, 12 to no lynch.

This is the peak of the dana wagon. Benmage and nhammen are confirmed scum. I strongly suspect a third scum was on this wagon, which in all likelihood is Prozac. Prozac was the second vote and Benmage followed him on.

Votecount 1.11

Frank [13] (Xite, Prozac, danakillsu, UA, singersigner, mysterio, hiphop, robbnva, wraith, Bunnylover, Benmage, Gorrad, Reck)
Singersigner [3] (flinter, DavidParker, Frank)
hiphop [2] (Shanba, nhammen)
Wraith [1] (ConfidAnon)
danakillsu [1] (@.@)
Prozac [1] (WickedestJr)
Rob [1] (Orochi)

Not Voting [2] (Sebguer, Kise)

This is the FrankLynch votecount. Benmage is on it, for confirmed scum. Dana, Prozac and Robbnva are all on it, for probable scum. I don't know what nhammen was trying to do, probably prevent votecount analysis association.

Votecount 2.1

Wraith [3] (Xite, ConfidAnon, danakillsu)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)

Not Voting [16] (@.@, Robbnva, Hiphop, Kise, Wickedestjr, Wraith, Mysterio, Singersigner, Shanba, Gorrad, Benmage, Flinter, Orochi, Sebguer, Bunnylover, Reck)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

This is the first votecount on me. Xite and CA had cases against me, dana didn't. And dana was the third on the wagon, a common spot for a scumvote.

Votecount 2.7

Wraith [6] (Gorrad, Mysterio, Hiphop, Benmage, Xite, ConfidAnon)
Mysterio [5] (Flinter, Singersigner, danakillsu, Rob, @.@)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)
dana [1] (Reck)
Prozac [1] (Shanba)
Flinter [1] (Wickedestjr)
ConfidAnon [1] (Bunnylover)

Not Voting [4] (Kise, Orochi, Sebguer, Wraith)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

In other news, no bites for replacing Orochi and Sebguer as of right now. Gonna go bump the signup thread and my replacement thread post. Tell your friends to replace, tell your enemies too.

This was after the fake daykill. Dana jumped off my dying wagon and onto the next best thing. After it became clear my wagon was starting up again, he jumped back onto mine.

Votecount 2.19

Mysterio [11] (Flinter, Singersigner, @.@, hiphop, Wickedestjr, Shanba, Lowell, Wraith, UltimaAvalon, Rob, Bunnylover)
Wraith [8] (Gorrad, Mysterio, Benmage, Antihero, danakillsu, DemonHybrid)
Prozac [1] (Kise)
Robbnva [1] (Xite)

Not Voting [2] (My Milked Eek, Prozac)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

Here is the MysterioLynch votecount. This is a very unusual votecount because out of my top suspects and confirmed scum only Robbnva is on it. The confirmed scum (Benmage) is on my wagon along with Dana, a probable scum. This decreases my suspicion of Robbnva slightly.

Top Suspects, in order:

Dana
Robbnva
Prozac
Bunnylover

I'll start doing WoTs momentarily.

[Wraith]

danakillsu

I'm going to ignore everything from him on Day 1. That's been discussed enough. Day 2 is where his cop claim starts to fail to make up for scumminess.

Got an inno on DavidParker, but as you can see, that doesn't help us much. I'm surprised scum killed him, seeing as he didn't seem likely to be a cop anyway.
vote: Wraith
I would be very glad to lynch the scum any day of the week.

This is where is starts. We now know there was a scum Roleblocker - why didn't they block the claimed cop? They killed the other, but the more probable claimed cop got away scot free? I'm surprised this wasn't brought up during Day 2. He also immediately jumps on my bandwagon for no reason. As far as I can tell, dana had absolutely NO suspicions against me during Day 1 and gave none during Day 2.

Strange that Wickedest will vote almost anyone except Wraith.
He's definitely someone to look at as a scumbuddy if Wraith flips scum as expected.

He begins putting out seeds of doubt on Wickedest, the most obvtown player in the game, solely for defending me. Let me bring up this point in my defense: why, when so many people were arrayed against me Day 2, and with the threat of "obvious Day 3 lynch" looming because of Mysterio's flip, would I use the Mafia's kill on the person who MOST STEADFASTLY BELIEVED MY INNOCENCE? No amount of WIFOM makes that a good decision on my part. I'll also bring up that Dana's activity dropped sharply during Day 2, when he was in the clear, cruising on his cop claim, and sitting on a strong wagon.

Is it so odd for a player to have a town read? Just because you believe someone is scum doesn't mean they are, and moreover, just because you think someone is obviously scummy doesn't mean it's true.

And your point is...?
If I think Wraith is obvscum, then I think anyone who ignores his scumminess and votes just about anyone else is also scummy. That is called consistency. If you don't agree, you don't agree, but this statement is pointless.

Shanba's post was in response to dana's attack on wicked for defending me. Dana uses this to try and turn the town against the second-most obvtown player in the game. Note: Shanba is a very probable candidate for tonight's nightkill.

If he was town faking a daykill, he would be doing it to try to keep Wraith alive. And if he wanted Wraith alive, he wouldn't have put his vote there for so long. So unvote vote: Mysterio
I kind of like the case on him, and it's a good place to rest my vote while I try to figure out who besides Wraith is scummy.

Believing I am inevitably dead, dana shifts to the next-best wagon, and also states that he'll lose his tunnel vision. Yet he immediately puts his tunnel vision goggles back on when the daykill is confirmed fake. Oh dear. "Captain, my sensors indicate a strong scum reading on this next post"

It is still my opinion, in fact. Robbnva kind of beat me to the punch.

Why did we need to post our suspicions of other people when we already have a lynch candidate for the day. That would only give scum more information.

So yeah, what you did was good...for scum.

This is dana actively advocating that we not post suspicions on other people other than me. What happened to "I'm going to start figuring out who besides Wraith is scummy"? Scum have all the information they need - everyone else is an enemy, they must die. Posting SCUMREADS on other people are only going to help them choose who not to kill yet.

My opinion on walls of text.
Gorrad: town
Xite: scummy
Robbnva: neutral
Mysterio: town
hiphop: scummy
If the Wraith wagon actually does fall apart, I would definitely vote for hiphop or Xite, preferably hiphop, since Xite hasn't been too scummy before this whole thing.

Dana had a strong suspicion of hiphop throughout Day 1, but chose to lynch me over him. Could be evidence of scumbuddy distancing, especially since hiphop has been lurking almost the entire game, popping in only to push mislynch wagons. Xite is the third-most obvtown player in this game, but lost townpoints in everyone's eyes from the fake daykill. I've stated this before: SCUM HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO FAKE HAMMER/DAYKILL SOMEONE THEY ARE ALREADY ABOUT TO LYNCH, AND DERAILING AN INEVTIABLE LYNCH OF A SCUMBUDDY IS AN INCREDIBLY STUPID THING FOR SCUM TO DO AS IT DRAWS SEVERE AMOUNTS OF ATTENTION ONTO THEM. The "scumminess" of Xite revolves around this, but Xite, after Shanba and Wicked, is the ONLY townie to bother taking off tunnel vision goggles and scumhunt other people than the most popular wagon.

Why is it ironic and why are you seeing this as a scumteam?
I think you're just mad because I pointed out your scumminess in derailing the Wraith wagon, voting for Wraith again, and unvoting him again. Wishy-washiness on the main wagon is extremely scummy.

Ultra-extreme tunnel vision (plus lurking and poor voting reasons) is much more of a scumtell.

hy am I a silly cop? I've only investigated one person and it made sense. And I for sure wouldn't allow myself to be directed now that EVERYONE has said not to direct me.

It might have made sense but he was dead, and therefore the result was easy to lie about.

Inno on Xite was my result. I didn't investigate Wraith because I figured it would be too obvious and scum might be able to affect it somehow (like a lawyer or framer). So I wish to lynch Wraith like we should have yesterday. vote: Wraith

And this is the crown jewell of my collection. I've already pointed out how full of craplogic this is. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why dana is confirming Xite as innocent despite having pushed his scumminess so much during Day 2. Here is a cop-paste of my first attack on this post:

Let me get this straight: you didn't want to investigate me (and therefore prove my innocence) because you thought a scum framer could frame me? And then you want to lynch me anyway despite thinking the MAFIA would frame me?

But let's move on to the second part of my critique of this single post:

1. Why did you get a result at all? According to Natural Action Resolution, the block comes before the kill, so if you were blocked (and you should have been by a sane scumteam if they killed Wicked) you should not have a result even though the RB died.

2. WHY ARE YOU EVEN ALIVE? The Doctor is dead, the best possible choice by a sane scumteam would have been to kill you, the claimed cop who has POSTED RESULTS.

Theories at this point:

1. Dana is a ScumCop

I don't know how likely this is on ModMeta, but it's possible based on his play and investigation results.

2. Dana is lying

Equally plausible is that Dana is not a cop at all. Innocent on a confirmed dead VT is more than possible to fake. Xite is obvtown, the result can be faked almost as easily.

I am 99% sure dana is scum. If he had claimed a guilty on Xite that certainty would be 100%.

Predit: It doesn't matter if you said framer OR lawyer. You're still saying you thought I would be framed by someone and that was why you didn't investigate me, yet still vote for me anyway.

[Wraith]

Almost nobody doubted the cop claim Day 1. Tell me: is it smart to kill the claimed cop who has meta-evidence of town-fakeclaiming cop multiple times to draw a nightkill, but leave the other claimed cop free to investigate someone? Plus, almost EVERYONE doubted DP's counterclaim. He was killed to absolutely ensure that his counterclaim could not be called in to question dana's claim Day 2.

[Wraith]

In short, the smart N1/D2 action by the scumteam would have been:

Kill Wicked or Xite

Roleblock Dana

Mislynch DP

DP would have been an easy target to mislynch Day 2. I'm confident he would have died before page 40. Xite and Wicked were the most obvtown players Day 1. Dana was the more believable claimed cop. Summary: Scumteam isn't too bright, dana is obvscum. If he was really pro-town, he wouldn't be alive right now.

[Wraith]

Also, I'd like to put this out before I forget. We probably have a very smart/observant SK doing the second kill each night. Gorrad is currently my top choice for that role.

[Wraith]

TBH my speculation is kind of a shot in the dark. I'm pretty confident that it's an SK and not Vig (keep up the good work, either way), but my putting you as the top candidate is mostly because you seem smart (despite the D2 tunneling) and there are really no better candidates that aren't scum. Shanba would be my second choice but I really want to believe he is town.

[Wraith]

Sorry, I skimmed through that whole thing.

I don't see how danakillsu's claim a few days ago was OBVIOUSLY fake, especially after DP's flip. I can understand Reck's reasoning with that, but I don't necessarily agree with all of his reads. For example, I find Poro one of the scummiest people here, so don't associate him with Reck as far as reads go. However, I do feel like dana's faking it now that this WIFOM bullcrap has been going on.

So, yeah, you seem to know a lot about dana's role. This in particular stands out:

When dana flips scum, I'd like him to be lynched.

You seem to know a little too much.

Unvote, Vote: evilpacman18

This is a very poor reason for a vote, and smells like scum panicking to me.

IGMEOY DH

@Xite: Your WIFOM is giving the scumteam waaaay too much credit IMO. The fact that they killed DP instead of someone less easy to mislynch really lowered my expectations of their capabilities.

[Wraith]

I'm not. Roleblockers are so common that they're in newbies and minis. There's, like, a 3% chance there wouldn't be one in a large normal.

[Wraith]

Xite, stop nitpicking. It's bad for my reads.

[Wraith]

On this last part:
Dude, how stupid are you? This logic simply does not work. If the framer was on you, and you were town, I didn't want to be investigating you. If the lawyer was on you, I didn't want to be investigating you. And you can be sure that either of those, if they existed, would be on you. Also, if a busdriver wanted to mess up my action, you can be sure you would be one of the targets, whether you were scum or not. So in other words, an investigation of you would be at least 20% less reliable than an investigation on anyone else. I still want to lynch you, because I believe you are scum, but an investigation of you would not be able to prove that.

If you are going to quote my ENTIRE WoT, then address it all, don't strawman. For two, that defense is almost entirely WIFOM. And WIFOM on the WIFOM.

WIFOM 1: I am the obvious target for a Framer. Yet you are hell-bent on believing that I am scum. If I am scum, I am already guilty, and a Framer wouldn't need to frame me.

WIFOM 2: If there is a Bus Driver he could switch your actions to someone else and maybe get a guilty. And this makes me scum, how?

WIFOM 3: I am scum either way, and wasting an investigation on me would be useless.

You refuse to confirm my innocence but want me dead anyways. Good cop work there, son.

[Wraith]

Because what scum would gain from roleblocking Dana is more than they'd get from setting this up as WIFOM.

Thank you, a voice of reason.

[Wraith]

Xite, you're making things way too complicated using WIFOM. Let's go with the simple explanation. Secondly, Gorrad said it well: why in hell would the scum block random people when there's a claimed cop out there? Thirdly, a scum setup of dana for a mislynch by not roleblocking him and not killing him relies on several very incredible coincidences:

1. Dana doesn't investigate one of them and calls out the scum
2. Dana plays a scummy game after his game
3. The Roleblocker being revealed before dana is lynched

It's only been by sheer chance that all of these criteria have been met. The simple explanation is that dana is scum. The complicated explanation is that the scum went through all the trouble to rely on miniscule percentages of chance that their gambit could be set up even after one of their number was dead. I'm going to believe the simple explanation every single time until proven otherwise, so stop trying to drown me in WIFOM.

Thirdly, at this point I do not care about his claim. If, by some stroke of bad town luck, he is a town cop, then he is playing a horribly scummy game and making awfully bad decisions. If he wasn't a claimed cop he would have been lynched already for what he's said today alone.

[Wraith]

EBWOP: *"Dana plays a scummy game after his claim"

*Fourthly

[Wraith]

Evilpacman is not obvtown. He's still a toss-up. I'm fine with either a dana lynch or a Rob lynch, but right now the dana lynch is in the lead.

Predit:

I am 100% certain AT LEAST one of the people Gorrad listed there is scum. It's not me, and I think Dana and Robb are both scum. If dana flips town by chance, Robb is the lynch for tomorrow. And vice versa, if by some chance the wagon reverses.

[Wraith]

I might be confusing him with another replacement. I don't know and I don't have time to check.

[Wraith]

If Xite is scum then he's played an amazing game. Unless something game-changing happens I'm not going to support a Xite lynch.

[Wraith]

Mod: Votecount, please

I wanna know which lynch we're going to do today. Dana or Rob?

[Wraith]

I've NEVER IN MY LIFE seen someone so fantastically amazing at mafia resort to AtE. That's something I've only ever seen with n00bs and scum.

AtE is completely null, and you know that, as an aside.

A lot of people in this game seems to be giving out AtE like candy.

I agree with this. I use AtE all the time, mostly so I can laugh at the failtown after they mislynch me.

However, I don't advise defending Rob at this point, DH. You're already on people's scumdars.

[Wraith]

If Xite is scum then he's played an amazing game. Unless something game-changing happens I'm not going to support a Xite lynch.

[Wraith]

Stop nitpicking. It just makes you look even worse.

[Wraith]

I don't care what Xite's case against you is today, I made my own case Day 2 on why I thought you were scum. Extreme flailing, an unusual claim, and almost downright flaming really don't help you in my eyes.

Only reason I haven't voted yet is because I'm waiting for the count.

[Wraith]

This is what I want to do: Lynch Rob. If Dana doesn't come through with better play, lynch him tomorrow. THEN lynch Xite. If both dana and Robb somehow flip town Xite will be my top suspect.

[Wraith]

I willing to lynch dana today, but I'm also willing to take a new look at Xite. The fact that every lynch he's headed has been a mislynch is really starting to look suspicious.

[Wraith]

Oops.

Vote: dana

[Wraith]

I willing to lynch dana today, but I'm also willing to take a new look at Xite. The fact that every lynch he's headed has been a mislynch is really starting to look suspicious.

But you've been one of my main followers IIRC... that looks a bit suspicious if that's how you feel. (dunno if I can explain this better)

There's the fact that Robb indeed flipped town, which I really did not expect. I might have misjudged you, and at the moment it is certainly plausible that you could be a very good DSP.

[Wraith]

Top suspects at the moment (in order):

Dana
DemonHybrid
Xite
Prozac

[Wraith]

I say we lynch dana now, lynch hiphop tomorrow. If dana is trying to save his own skin by bussing a scumbuddy it's an awful strategy.

[Wraith]

Dana got a guilty on hiphop. If you didn't know that, why are you voting for him?

FoS: Bunnylover

Also, I highly doubt Kise and dana knew each other were cops.

[Wraith]

I'm voting Hiphop, because Dana got a guilty on him.
Doesn't guilty mean scum?
No, I believe Kise knew Dana was the cop.
I don't know if Dana knew Kise was the cop.

Yet, in the same post you voted hiphop, you also asked dana what his results were, directly contradicting this post. Why are you lying?

[Wraith]

L-1. Dana, anything left to say for yourself.

Please don't hammer until he speaks.

[Wraith]

But Kise never put a vote on Dana.
That what I don't get. Kise would obviously investigate a person who claimed him, since he didn't come out and counter claim, right?
If Kise did investigate Dana and came up scum, then why not put a vote on him?

Their is another possibilty.
That Dana is actually a cop, but is a scum cop.
Is that something that can be done in a game like this?

We've already theorized Dana is a scumcop.

A counterclaim from Kise would have been extremely stupid D1. In a mini, sure, but not in a Large. Has there ever been a large where there was only one cop or other investigative role?

[Wraith]

@singer: I think he means "read the topic and analyze Shanba's reads while it is locked and he has nothing to do."

[Wraith]

Right now Bunnylover is on the top of my list.

I can't believe dana managed to cruise on a cop claim that long.

More tomorrow. I have to go to sleep or I'll be a zombie during my morning commute.

[Wraith]

I don't like the fact that everyone here died except for me:
Hiphop [3] (Dana, Lowell, Bunnylover)

What are you insinuating here? You do know hiphop died and is town, right?

The vig/sk is killing off lurkers, nitwits.
- nhammen
- benmage
- kise/ua
- baby spice/lowell

In the case of baby spice, I'm willing to bet he went with dana's first day 4 post. But other than that, he's killing off lurkers, which is not a thing an sk would do.

This is a good guess, but it is actually advantageous for SK to kill lurkers, because they provide little to no reads back on him. If an SK, for example, killed people who accused him, that would be bad play. Lurkers are a safe kill. So it can still go either way. I need to check the player list. If we had a vigilante today or tomorrow might be a good time to claim, so we aren't blindly looking for a nonexistent SK, based on how many scum might be left.

[Wraith]

Okay, with 12 players alive now would NOT be a good time to claim if there is a vig. I still think there's one more scum out there, and leaning more toward there being an SK than a vig. Xite is currently my top suspect. His defense of dana Day 3 does not look good at all.

Vote: Xite

[Wraith]

Also, I think Bunnylover could be a good candidate for being SK.

Predit: @Xite: I changed my opinion after I reviewed the playerlist as I aid I would.

[Wraith]

@Bunnylover: Xite's defense of dana revolved around gallons of WIFOM, basically stating that the scumteam had spent the entire game since dana's cop claim keeping him alive and unblocked for the sole reason of making him look like scum and getting mislynched. It was a bad defense then, and in hindsight since dana's flip it looks incredibly like scum trying to save a buddy.

[Wraith]

Also, before the end of this game I believe the following people should be lynched:

Xite (for the terribly scummy defense of dana)
Bunnylover (for all-around scummy play all game)
hiphop (to make sure dana's fae "guilty" result wasn't a last-ditch attempt to convince us a buddy was town)

Some people, notably Gorrad, will probably want to add me to that list. If we get close to LyLo, maybe (to avoid a distraction), but not today and not tomorrow.

[Wraith]

Oh wow, I totally missed that. Well, that saves us the trouble, and he was a smart kill if the killer was in fact a vig. So:

Xite
Bunnylover

I'm fine with either one.

[Wraith]

Uh short, it was a gambit I thought might work in getting slip-ups/reads on a bunch of voters, but in the end I've realized it doesn't work. So I dropped the subject. I don't know why you keep insisting on bringing it up.

[Wraith]

Okay, revising. I am fine with a lynch on any of the following:

Xite
Bunnylover
Prozac

I'm too tired today, I'll reread Gorrad tomorrow if I have time.

[Wraith]

Wraith why did you add Prozac to the list?

For one, because Shanba strongly suspects him, and Shanba is probably my strongest town read at the moment. For two, I haven't liked his play all game, and I've said that, it's only recently that other people have superceded him on my scumlist. For three, he's active lurking like crazy, and this late in the game, he's either scum or detrimental.

[Wraith]

Gorrad's play is looking worse and worse to me. First:

"Wraith is accusing someone of lurking while 'lurking' himself. I'll suddenly fall back on the case against him that I discarded yesterday."

Then:

"I'm not scum, Prozac is. FOCUS ON PROZAC"

Really, really not liking this.

[Wraith]

You're going against the grain. You're posting cases on people who aren't remotely on the radar, referencing obscure tells. You seem to be off in your own little world of scumhunting while the rest of us are going after other people. Other than you, people aren't talking about me. The same thing happened with the start of your case on Porochaz. It doesn't matter how good or bad the cases are, they're distracting from what the majority of the town is talking about and therefore shoved aside.

The only reason Porochaz is on the radar now is because of your constantly pushing him. We cleared enough of the other distractions away that we can now pay attention to your case on him. Keep pushing this case on me, and I promise people will look at it once I eventually reach the public eye.

[Wraith]

Gorrad's play is looking worse and worse to me. First:

"Wraith is accusing someone of lurking while 'lurking' himself. I'll suddenly fall back on the case against him that I discarded yesterday."

Then:

"I'm not scum, Prozac is. FOCUS ON PROZAC"

Really, really not liking this.

1) Heh. Yeah, right. If this was true, I'd be voting you. I was just pointing out the irony.

2) How are you getting this from the quote you cited? Seriously. I can't understand it.

2. To be honest, the more and more I read it the more and more I doubt that's actually what you meant. I think I confused myself with the language in it, because for some reason it reads just like that to me. *headache*

[Wraith]

@singer: Distancing? What I remember is him using gallons of WIFOM to DEFEND dana. And he succeeded, too. For a day.

[Wraith]

Okay, to be more specific, these passages specifically are what I'm referring to. It's why I'm really liking a Xite lynch today:

His whole play in general Day 3 was just wierd. Bad and wierd. It started when Robb and I started going after dana. Here:

I actually like this logic,

however because it is coming from you I am reluctant to do this

but since I was the one who originally pointed out the role-blocking I am comfortable doing this

Vote dana

Bolded. Not the first time you've done this. Nice way to discredit him

Underlined. And then you go and try to show us how townie you are?
Wow. Color added so everyone gets this part.

The problem with that is that the claimed cop refuses to investigate me when he has the chance and then wants to lynch me. I think it's pretty clear what the scum setup probably is: Goon, Roleblocker, Godfather. Maybe a second goon or dana being ScumCop. First, votecount analysis:

First, your VCA is terrible, just want to point that out. That being said, I did notice the robbie second to last thing on the last one, which IIRC he was not so for that lynch, so I will see what changed his mind...

Second, again NO SANE MAFIA PLAYER WOULD BLOCK THE TERRIBLY SCUMMY CLAIMED COP FOR THE VERY WIFOM REASONS YOU GUYS ARE USING TO THINK HE'S SCUM. EVERYONE VOTING FOR DANA RIGHT NOW IS PLAYING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS

Responding to the next few posts in another post so it's easier on the eyes and maybe people will actually read them...

Bolded. Nice way to discredit him. And then discredit me anyways later. Funny, that.
Underlined. Horrible, horrible WIFOM. I mean, really horrible.

The WIFOM content of the debate about dana not getting blocked or killed is reaching toxic levels.

QFFUCKINGT

You were the one perpetuating it. We had the sensible and ultimately CORRECT explanation.

When I am a roleblocker for the bad guys, I make damn sure the first claimed power role is blocked until somebody better comes along and THIS is why I am voting you.

now I have to wonder about your inno on Xite, is that a ploy to earn town cred with him or is he your scum buddy. nobody will know for sure until the real cop comes forward, which I am sure they won't cause there is no doctor. <insert facepalm here>

Well, you're not exactly the uh... best of players according to what I've seen, so I would totally expect you to play like that. But you're playing with the big boys, the ones that really think out what the town would say to each kill/block/etc and therefore do the one that will get the most attention on townies as possible, especially PR townies.

I'm not even going to respond to that last bit, as it's full of throwing spaghetti, WIFOM, and a bit of guilt tripping all in one.

This is an excellent example of the Chainsaw Defense. Xite has managed to discredit Robb while simultaneously avoiding the main point (it's stupid for the scum to leave a claimed cop free).

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SAID SOMEONE WAS TOWN DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE THE MOST OBVTOWN PLAYER IN THE GAME. I HAD A LOT OF SUSPICION OF WICKED, SO HE WASN'T OBVTOWN TO ME, AND APPARENTLY NOT TO A FEW OTHERS EITHER. Sorry, just had to point out to wraith that his opinion is not truth and law.

I can apply this same logic to your opinion on dana, only my logic would have been more sensible in example. Oh, and in the end, I was right. Both times.

NOW if I recall, Xite never voted for dana on day 1 to me is yet another red flag.

Then vote and attack me, stop trying to see if there's still enough people suspicious of me to get a wagon on me. This is spaghetti throwing. And you've already done it twice just today, with just me.
Also, I never voted him because I found other people to be scummier.

OHMYGODROBBI'MGOINGTOFUCKINGKILLYOU

Robb raised a very excellent point here and I think it needs to be brought up again. Why didn't you vote for the scumminest player during early day 1? You defended him ferociously during day 3. Yet dana was scum, and obviously so at several points. *Rum rum ruuuuuuum*

Let's also bring up that the MAFIA GOON FAKECLAIMED COP CLAIMED AN INNOCENT RESULT ON XITE, WHO ENDED UP BEING HIS MOST AVID DEFENDER THROUGHOUT THE GAME. Scum trying to clear a scumbuddy of suspicion, oh so much.

1. Well since I originally thought he was scum, it isn't an attempt to discredit him but more of a "I can't believe he is saying this" kind of vibe
2. WOW you are reaching to the point of not making sense. how is that trying to look town? do you not get that I thought Wraith is scum so I am making that statement to clarify that my vote on dana isn't because of Wraith's vote, it is because I was actually contemplating doing it when I first pointed out the roleblocker.
3. your logic on the roleblocker is totally wrong,

don't you think dana would look more suspicious if he came back each day claiming to be role-blocked?

personally I would.

If cop is coming back

with innocents I would not lynch him,

but now cop is coming back

with results after it is confirmed there is a mafia role blocker makes me suspect dana of lying.

I have seen a game where dana lied about being a power role early on a game and makes it to about day 7 before getting lynched, he pulls this stuff and he is quite convincing so I am not falling for it.

1) Considering you HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE, I'm reluctant to believe that's true. It looks a lot more like you trying to distance yourself from someone while still agreeing with him. I dunno, maybe when you do flip scum I'll see about a wraith lynch...
2) No, the fact that you're doing the EXACT definition of spaghetti throwing is what's getting me. And you're trying real hard to look protown while doing it.

3) bolded. Nope

Italicized and underlined. Didn't I tell you I'd have a quote for that? Where in any place EVER does that make sense? It's honestly just a whole lot of words with a whole lot of nothing in between.

The important part is Robb's point three and the response. In hindsight, Robb's is an excellent point. Bolded: I would. Any sane person would. Only scum would attempt to defend like this. Italicized and Underlined: More ad hominem. And strawman, too. He avoids the main point and attacks the grammar of the sentence.

Then there's this gem. It's the sole "possibility" Xite is willing to entertain in his list of theories, this one being that dana is scum:

-Is scum
--He will probably eventually give us one guilty of at least one of his scumbuddies.

Laughably bad logic. Unless dana utterly and completely failed at coherent thought, he would never give us a realy guilty on one of his scumbuddies. In fact, his only guilty was on a townie. Let's look at those innocents...oh wait, you're one of them. But I've mentioned that.

At this point I think I've said enough about Xite's defense of dana Day 3. It relied completely on WIFOM and Ad Hominem, and bad ones at that.

Let's take a look at something the ACTUAL cop said:

I don't think it's wrong to lynch dana at this point. Roleblocking a claimed cop for 2 nights would make sense if Benmage & nhammen are not aligned with dana. Xite's iffy stance on the matter is noteworthy, and could implicate him later if dana flips scum.

D2, I mentioned that out of Mysterio and Wraith, Wraith was the likelier one to be scum, and also a viable bus for his scumbuddies.

The combination of Benmage (known scum) and Xite (probable scum if dana is scum) on Wraith's wagon makes my little "equation" add up, so to speak.

If I can run my mouth (err, fingers) for a bit, I think a reasonable lynch sequence would be dana > xite > wraith, if and ONLY IF the former player(s) in the sequence flip scum. It comes down to being one of those scenarios where there's no questions asked. Just do it.


I haven't forgotten about you, Poro. For the time being, there are other.. more interesting developments. I was wrong about Wicked, so, who knows whether I'm wrong with you. That would mean my Godfather-hunting skills are not perfected like I thought they were. BTW, I still need students to take under my wing

The ACTUAL COP pushed for dana's lynch for not being roleblocked. And Xite attacked it as "bandwagonning scum" (although we didn't know Kise was the cop at this point). Still, in hindsight, it's strange. The important part is bolded. The ACTUAL COP believed Xite to be the scumbuddy of dana, the ACTUAL SCUM. Sure, according to him that would make me scum if Xite also flipped scum, but getting lynched after catching the final scum will be a small price to pay. I'm still surprised I'm still alive at this point, but I'm going to do everything I can to kill the scum before I go.

Let's also bring up nightkill logic. I haven't been giving the scumteam much credit all game, but, if Xite actually IS town, why on Earth is he still alive? Until today, Xite was the obviously town player after Wicked. They killed Wicked. Why is Xite still alive?

On a final note, let's remember this:

Dana-cop-targeting discussion ends now

I'm tired now. I wanted to go into Xite's Day 4 actions, but all this stuff is starting to hurt my head. And I didn't even go through all of the Xite-Dana Chainsaw Defense.

[Wraith]

EBWOP: Wraith first.

I did respond. Look for it, please, I don't have time to dig around.

@Bunny, Antihero: Will you PLEASE focus on the actual scum? Singer has been pretty townie all game (flinter probably less so but that's not the point). Stop screwing around with different suspects and let's lynch the obvscum. I have too many suspects at the moment for them all to be scum (I suspect only one scum left at this point) so right now I'm going for my number one. I suggest you do the same.

[Wraith]

Bunny, I think you're missing the point. The point isn't what the scum would or wouldn't do anymore, the point is that DANA WAS SCUM AND XITE WAS USING CRAPLOGIC TO KEEP HIM ALIVE.

[Wraith]

It was a mutual chainsaw defense, a major, major scumtell. Dana put up an "innocent" on Xite, and Xite attacked anyone who made a case against dana. It was his attempt to both keep dana alive and himself in the clear.

[Wraith]

Okay, consider this:

Xite never even acknowledged Benmage and nhammen, at all. I can't even find a mention of them in his ISO.

Xite's play with dana flip-flopped considerably. During day 1, he attacked dana, then flipped around and attacked everyone else who attacked dana. He backed off completely after the fakeclaim (although most people did too). Then, we have his Day 3 incrdi-WIFOM chainsaw defense.

Do I really need to say more? When I get home tonight, I'll post a series of WoTs as to why Xite is scum, if that's what it takes.

[Wraith]

@Xite: I like how you completely ignored my case and instead attacked the weakest comment I made in a later post. To correct the misrep, what I meant was:

"The point isn't what scum would or would not do in regards to blocking/killing/nothing the cop anymore, it's the fact..."

Predit: Yes, you were. You agreed so far as it would keep the distance if he had been lynched, but actively attempted (and succeeded) to derail the wagon against him. I'll post evidence when I can multitab at home.

[Wraith]

Wraith, I disagree with your assessment of singer's play.

I don't care about how you feel about how I feel about singer's play (wow that's a wierd sentence). I care about you voting for the scumbag.

[Wraith]

@Gorrad: Here

Uh short, it was a gambit I thought might work in getting slip-ups/reads on a bunch of voters, but in the end I've realized it doesn't work. So I dropped the subject. I don't know why you keep insisting on bringing it up.

Also, my case on Xite revolves around his relationship with dana, mostly his D3 play. Throughout Day 3, several people (most notably Robb and myself) claimed Dana was scum because it was incredibly suspicious that the claimed cop had not been roleblocked at all, and not killed after Doctor was dead. Xite argued using gallons of WIFOM. In short his argument: "Dana is town because the scum are setting him up for a mislynch. They know that if they didn't roleblock or kill him he would appear to be scum! It's all a master plan by the scumteam to get us to mislynch the cop!" It was blatantly obvious that the long-term gains from killing/blocking dana were far greater than setting him up for a mislynch using WIFOM, and Xite refused to believe that. And we were right in the end. So his chainsaw defense of dana looks incredibly scummy now.

[Wraith]

Yes, but I was on them before they were obvious. It's a scumtell if someone says 'Oh, this person has a big wagon forming, I should join it'. It's not if someone's one of the first people starting the wagon.

It is if you look at it this prespective:
Scum know who is townie and who is not.
Scum can easily jump on any wagon early on without having to worry if its their scum buddy or not.
Even if it is their scum buddy, no harm done since they can just comment what you commenting.
Although I doubt this is what were dealing with.
You seem townie to me, very townie. The two people I believe are town are you and Xite, and having you two argue with one another isn't going to help town win this game.

Dude, the two people you most think are town are everyone else's top suspects, and for very good reasons. You come to the strangest conclusions.

[Wraith]

No, I'm pretty committed to the Xite wagon now (which I started). I would really like to lynch Xite today.

[Wraith]

I didn't start it (flinter did), but it;s still my wagon, considering how much effort I've put into analyzing your play. You're scum and you know it, and you're just avoiding accusations and using strawman to discredit me.

[Wraith]

Let's take a look at the entirety of Xite's Day 4 play. Funny that the day we finally lynch the scum he's been defending forever he practically disappears, a total reversal from what we've seen before. First:

Not so sure about that and, but I figure we should wait with dana and lynch him in a couple days after we get a few more scumflips IF you still haven't decided he's town.

This is his last post from Day 3. Another attempt to keep his scumbuddy alive a little longer. Of course, totally reversed with:

Well that's depressing. I might be unreliable in some way or another. But I got a guilty on hiphop, and an inno on DP, so vote:hiphop
I think it's more likely that Kise was Naive or Paranoid and that he just wasn't revealed as such, if that makes any sense.

Ehhh... I'm not to sure about this, I'm more apt to believe you're scum after a cop flip. If you DO flip as another cop, I will be sure to check out Hip Hop, sound good?
Vote:Dana

@Shanba about Gorrad - I agree, but I need to find exactly where this gut reaction fits in, because I've been doing a whole lot of failing recently and I'm starting to want to just believe my townreads are the scum and my scumreads are the town at this point. It'd actually about match in numbers too, sadly.

At first glance, this seems like a personally reasonable reversal. But in retrospect, this is incredibly obvious bussing. He succeeded in keeping dana alive another day, but I think he was counting on Robb flipping as an SK or another scum group. Also, convenient how Baby Spice (hiphop replacement) ended up dead the next day, so he didn't have to double-check on that.

I willing to lynch dana today, but I'm also willing to take a new look at Xite. The fact that every lynch he's headed has been a mislynch is really starting to look suspicious.

But you've been one of my main followers IIRC... that looks a bit suspicious if that's how you feel. (dunno if I can explain this better)

This one's funny - despite the fact that I'd been pushing a dana lynch almost entirely through Day 3, and that I found his defense terribad, he tries to turn around and call ME suspicious for suddenly changing my stance on him (Xite I mean).

After this he totally disappears until today, leaving his vote on dana and letting the rest of us lynch the obvscum without having to justify his own change of ehart further. Obvious bussing FTW.

Can we PLEASE lynch this scum?

[Wraith]

Let's take a look at the entirety of Xite's Day 4 play. Funny that the day we finally lynch the scum he's been defending forever he practically disappears, a total reversal from what we've seen before. First:

Not so sure about that and, but I figure we should wait with dana and lynch him in a couple days after we get a few more scumflips IF you still haven't decided he's town.

This is his last post from Day 3. Another attempt to keep his scumbuddy alive a little longer. Of course, totally reversed with:

Well that's depressing. I might be unreliable in some way or another. But I got a guilty on hiphop, and an inno on DP, so vote:hiphop
I think it's more likely that Kise was Naive or Paranoid and that he just wasn't revealed as such, if that makes any sense.

Ehhh... I'm not to sure about this, I'm more apt to believe you're scum after a cop flip. If you DO flip as another cop, I will be sure to check out Hip Hop, sound good?
Vote:Dana

@Shanba about Gorrad - I agree, but I need to find exactly where this gut reaction fits in, because I've been doing a whole lot of failing recently and I'm starting to want to just believe my townreads are the scum and my scumreads are the town at this point. It'd actually about match in numbers too, sadly.

At first glance, this seems like a personally reasonable reversal. But in retrospect, this is incredibly obvious bussing. He succeeded in keeping dana alive another day, but I think he was counting on Robb flipping as an SK or another scum group. Also, convenient how Baby Spice (hiphop replacement) ended up dead the next day, so he didn't have to double-check on that.

I willing to lynch dana today, but I'm also willing to take a new look at Xite. The fact that every lynch he's headed has been a mislynch is really starting to look suspicious.

But you've been one of my main followers IIRC... that looks a bit suspicious if that's how you feel. (dunno if I can explain this better)

This one's funny - despite the fact that I'd been pushing a dana lynch almost entirely through Day 3, and that I found his defense terribad, he tries to turn around and call ME suspicious for suddenly changing my stance on him (Xite I mean).

After this he totally disappears until today, leaving his vote on dana and letting the rest of us lynch the obvscum without having to justify his own change of ehart further. Obvious bussing FTW.

Can we PLEASE lynch this scum?

I don't like these points:
The first point is unfair. Xite wanted to keep Dana alive because of the cop thing on Day 3, it wasn't until Day 4 that Kise flipped Cop, so I would assume that Xite didn't know Dana was lying about his role other he wouldn't have made that post in the first place. Scum would know that their is another cop out their, and therefore wouldn't defend Dana. Remember this was before Kise flip as a Cop, meaning Xite had no way of knowing if Dana was lying or not.

The second point, how is it bussing? Kise flip cop, Xite thought Dana was cop, so after the flip of Kise, Xite voted Dana. Anyone would have done that. Its supported by the fact that Xite made a compromise that if Dana flip town, Hip-Hop would be lynch. Double check on what? I highly doubt it was scum who killed Hip-hop. It was the Vig/SK, to get rid of that WIFOM situation that was created when Dana died (Is Hip-hop town or is he scum would be the situation today if he was still alive. Actually Baby Spice.) Although its not good that a townie died, we should be glad that Baby Spice died since it got rid of the WIFOM.

I would say you are the one who are bussing. You keep bringing up the fact that you were pushing for Dana lynch, trying to earn townie points for knowing a person was scum.

Vote: Wraith

Well, look at this. I've been assuming a 4-scum team because of an SK (which I thought was you), but this is making me rethink my stance on you. I think we're watching another chainsaw defense from you.

And I don't buy Xite's "I wanted to keep the cop alive" excuse. By Day 3, the fact that he wasn't dead or even blocked made it blatantly obvious something was up. And guess what, I WAS RIGHT. Do I have to beat you over the head with this or do I have to shoot myself in the head and flip town before you idiots listen?

[Wraith]

Missed like 3 posts o.o

And I don't buy Xite's "I wanted to keep the cop alive" excuse. By Day 3, the fact that he wasn't dead or even blocked made it blatantly obvious something was up. And guess what, I WAS RIGHT. Do I have to beat you over the head with this or do I have to shoot myself in the head and flip town before you idiots listen?

AT THIS POINT YOU ARE SCUM TRYING TO RE-CREATE A HUGE WIFOM SITUATION AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

In fact, please, do shoot yourself in the head, because you're getting annoying with your bad cases and trying to start WIFOM battles.
Also, OMG u wur rite i will listn 2 u furevurz. You weren't the first person to bring it up AGAIN IIRC and if you were, links plox.
I'll come back to pacman tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote Wraith

What WIFOM situation? For one, I never created original WIFOM situation you refer to, you did. For two, my case on dana Day 3 wasn't WIFOM, it was common sense. For three, my case on dana Day 3 was correct in the end. I think this point is the one every single damn person here is missing. For four, my case against you isn't WIFOM. If dana was still alive it would be, but since he's CONFIRMED SCUM it isn't. My case against you is the incredibly obvious but successful Chainsaw Defense you pulled for him. That's not WIFOM.

[Wraith]

Fine, if I have to shoot myself and flip town to convince you idiots, I will.

Unvote Vote: Wraith

[Wraith]

I've tried. While I'm pretty sure you believe I can't seem to convince everyone else with logic and common sense. So apparently confirmation of my alignment will have to do.

[Wraith]

Lynch Xite tomorrow when I flip town, guys. That is all.

[Wraith]

Also, how would you being town imply that Xite is scum?

Still waiting on this, Wraith.

It doesn't prove he's scum, it would prove I'm not trying to frame him and that my common fucking sense can be trusted.

[Wraith]

Okay, I'm done with this game until the next day, because I've been spending too much time on it and severely neglecting my other games.

Unvote Vote: Xite

That's where my vote is staying until deadline.

[Wraith]

Antihero, I want to know why you are continuously skirting around question Xite's play. AFAIK you have attacked everyone except Xite today.

[Wraith]

OK, that's all I need from you singer.

Now, everyone.

Do you all see the epic backtracking singer is doing here to justify her flimsy Xite vote?

Xite is still scummier. I still don't understand how you can't see that.

[Wraith]

I HAVE said how. About three times now.

[Wraith]

I only remember you addressing my weakest points, most of which weren't even in my WoTs.

[Wraith]

I'm not moving my vote.

[Wraith]

Damn it, I really think a Xite lynch is better. But this is what I'm going to have to settle for.

Unvote Vote: Bunnylover

[Wraith]

o_O

Vote: Prozac

The only two possible options at this point are DH and Prozac.

[Wraith]

I strongly suspect Xite was a vig/SK kill. I'm now not as certain between whether there being an SK or vig.

[Wraith]

From the votecount alone I'm fairly certain Prozac is scum.

[Wraith]

@Shanba: It relates to his play throughout the game. Earlier on he was saying "Wraith has run this gambit before as town" but now he's saying "Wraith is scum he uses this as a fallback."

[Wraith]

Let's take a look at these two posts. The first is from Day 3, the second from Day 4:

why is everyone ignoring the fact that I said Lawyer OR Framer? is it just because it's convenient?

So wait a sec, ignoring the fact that your a cop thats now survived two days in a row, ignoring the fact that you are not playing like a cop at all, such as asking for guidance in who to investigate, which is clearly a flawed plan, ignoring even the fact that instead of investigating any players worthy of an investigation you chose xite, you think there is a mafia framer or lawyer in this game? Seriously? It's not like this game is being played in the New York sub forum, or it doesn't have "Normal" in the title. Your speaking out your ass and have been for a while. Lets bring all the stuff back in that I ignored before. It was already mentioned but you didn't vote Wraith because of the possibility of either a. A fairly rare almost bastard moddish role (reminder: in a normal game) or b. A role I've never even heard of before... As a cop you have motives to be beneficial to town and know when to show information, this comes to an extent with practice but even a newbie in there first game doesn't play the way you have (unless your frank... probably) unless you are trying to show your "towniness" by giving town complete control, which then becomes useless for town. But thinking about it for a couple of minutes most would realise this.

In any case, I know, Shanba, that Im about to vote another day 1 claimed cop, however there are too many inconsistencies here.

vote dana

L-1. Dana, anything left to say for yourself.
Please don't hammer until he speaks.

I wont be voting yet. However if you dont want someone to hammer, dont vote!

So, despite being sold on the case against dana Day 3, he doesn't hammer on Day 4? Strange...

[Wraith]

Okay, we're all split on wagons right now. As much as I'd rather go for Prozac at the moment, I can go for a DH wagon.

Unvote Vote: DemonHybrid

[Wraith]

Actually, my recollection of Reckoner is a lurker play. My vote on DH is for a few specifically scummy actions DH has done, mostly in the past. I'm really sick right now, so I don't want to go digging. Mostly a check-in post.

[Wraith]

Too many suspects, not enough evidence to go around. The only person I'm certain about alignment is Shanba, and since he's been a voice of reason throughout the game I'll go with him.

[Wraith]

EBWOP: Oops.

Unvote Vote: singersigner

[Wraith]

Nope, you're right on your read, Shanba. The scum are only keeping me alive right now because of "suspicions" like Prozac's and that I'm seeing red everywhere now.

[Wraith]

Okay, this might come off as scummy, but I'm fairly desperate here, as I'm basically seeing red in about half the remaining town. No matter who we lynch today, we'll have 7 left tomorrow, with probable 1 scum and 1 SK among us. Personally, I want a massclaim tomorrow.

[Wraith]

And holy crap. Lots of important revelations. I'm 99.9% certain we have an SK and not a vig, for two main reasons:

1. If it was a vig I'm sure he would not have killed every night, especially after his second townkill.
2. If it was a vig I'm pretty damn sure I'd be dead.

It's also incredibly obvious the scum are trying to frame me, by killing my primary accuser.

At the moment, I think DH and Antihero are good candidates for the last scum, with flinter and pacman good candidates for SK. I am neutral on MME. For now

Vote: DemonHybrid

as he is my top suspect.

Propose popcorn massclaim. I am VT. If there was a third mason with Shanba and Wickedest, you need to claim now.

[Wraith]

O_o

They're townies who know each others' identities and can communicate with each during the night. It's more powerful than it seems at first glance. TBH I doubt there is a third mason in their group.

[Wraith]

@DH: It was pretty clear that singer was going to be lynched. And if you're going to talk about someone being on a mislynch wagon, look at yourself. I think I'm going to look at your vote history and see what I find. There's also the fact that evil gave singer PLENTY of time to give out some final thoughts (which she did), which is the main reason why he's not on my scumlist but instead the SKlist.

Also, please claim today, people.

[Wraith]

The only useful data I can get from votecount analysis is Reck's (DH replaced him) terrible voting patterns: Aside from a scummy hammer on Furcolow, his only votes were throwaway votes on confirmed scum. I'm pretty confortable with a DH lynch.

[Wraith]

Reck may be a competent scumhunter but his play in this game does not reflect it. He lurked and put votes down for bad reasons. Almost all his posts were no longer than one sentence and none of them contained any real scumhunting. THerefore it is impossible for Reck to have been "right on his reads."

[Wraith]

Because he had no reads. He was throwing down votes almost at random. I suspect he was putting them down on his scumbuddies on purpose, to start distancing himself from them.

[Wraith]

He did. Check the votecounts. On all three. The vote on Benmage was a randomvote, which I suspect was him starting to distance from scumbuddies.

[Wraith]

EBWOP: Excuse me, he never voted nhammen. But he did say "I'm glad nhammen is dead, I would never have voted him because he is so townie in his games."