New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Mr.Sandman]

Hello all. Sorry for the lack of activity, I've been having internet problems. I think I've weathered the storm however.

vote mothrax

I do find it interesting that Mothrax stated that he didn't like the RVS, yet still did nothing to get out of it, instead extending RVS even further by posting his joke "his sig told me to" vote.

A variant of the question I asked AGar was also supposed to go to Mothrax: If you hate the RVS so much, why did you place a me too vote instead of giving analysis? If you had to place a non-random vote on a player right now for the purposes of getting them lynched, who would it be and why would their lynch help us?

Because at the time of posting it, I did not have time to reread the thread, and yes, I dislike(hate is a strong word) RVS, but I also realize its necessity to some extent.
If I had to place a vote on someone now?
AGar, because he is unsucessfully bandwagon hoping with out an actual bandwagon, and some of his interactions with Zorblag and Fugi come off as slightly (<---most important word in the post) scummy to me. though that is part of my issue with RVS, yeah you can watch and gauge reactions, but there is never any hint as to whether or not the other person is serious.
Also, did I not achieve what I was hoping for? The very next post after mine was serious discussion.

Toogeloo - do you feel that mothrax's vote was indicative of scummy behavior, anti-town or RVS shenanigans?

It came off masked as RVS I think,

but his vote on Toon Fighter seemed like a way to get another train going

, and it's a very good point that he would use the excuse to vote Toon Fighter that it's still Random when he states he doesn't like the RVS at all.

Why would I start another train as opposed to hopping on one of the three that had already started? Also, in my orriginal posts I never said I wanted to end rvs, rather "get it moving." I dunno about you but I see a major difference.

also VOTE: diginova
His recent attempts at deflecting attention from him concern me.

#82 and #87. In one, you say your preferred choice for where you would place your vote is Agar, but for an unexplained reason, you don't vote him. Why not?

5 posts later, you jump on Toogeloo's idea that digi is deflecting attention and uses it as the reason to place a vote on digi. What's the problem with digi trying to draw attention to another player? It's not as if he wasn't defending himself fully without deflecting attention first. If a player is a townie and they get accused, they can't be expected to clear their name before they start to scum hunt again, given that scum hunting is the biggest town tell.

And I don't see why the rapid change away from AGar, who is attacking digi.

FoS: Lowell

What's wrong with defending yourself against a weak accusation? I don't see how digi's vote in the RVS is particularly scummy for the reasons that have been directed at it

[Mr.Sandman]

My experience with Mr.Sandman is pretty limited but reading through the thread just now it was concerning that he had picked up his prod and not responded. I think he's a bit likely to hang back as scum. Seeing that he's posted (with pretty good content) is reassuring on that front.

I tried to check it on my phone but I didn't even get as far as reading it before it timed out, never mind as far as the thread

CCARaven, why choose to join a bandwagon you think is based on reasons you had already pointed out you didn't think were significant? And how can flailing be a scum tell if you think digi is defending himself against false accusations?

[Mr.Sandman]

Vote: mothrax

/wagon

If you want a wagon, why the mothrax wagon and not the digi one?

[Mr.Sandman]

Fugi, why are you openly randomly bandwagonning right now exactly? You're basically extending the RVS, which has already been said is only beneficial to scum.

This.

My vote was RVS like, but it did add to a wagon, therefore not extending RVS. It was not a random vote, just a vote with (supposed) random reasons.

Dress it up how you like but you added to a wagon with a random vote and I don't see how that's in any way helping the town.

[Mr.Sandman]

That looks OMGUSie but anyway, where does he push an early lynch?

I'm inclinced to believe the claim right now.

@Mr. Sandman: did you forget who you voted for? You vote for me, providing a reasonable explination, and then question others as to why they were joining the bandwagon... isn't towns job trying to get someone they think is scum lynched? and if you still think I am scum, why try and discourage others from voting me?

No, I'm well aware I'm voting for you but I'm also well aware that just because you happened to come across as scummy doesn't mean that you're necessarily scum, therefore anything that anyone else does which I think is scummy, I'll follow up. I'm not discouraging him from voting for you, I asked for an explanation for why he voted for you and not digi because I think his vote was weak.

I'd like to hear some thoughts from tubby, something more than 'catching up' or 'rereading'.

[Mr.Sandman]

Pretty much everyone, scum and town, just makes up policies which suit them at the time as far as I've observed. I'm not a fan of so-called policy lynches. They're never 'policies' as such. They're just an excuse to put down a vote and then blame the vote on the policy if it all goes wrong.

I agree with the post above me. An ISO of Stef highlights the fact that more than half her posts are prod dodging.

@Zorblag No, his claim doesn't... even if the roleclaim is true, like you said, the allignment could go either way. I don't necessarily believe him when he says that he is town alligned...

Townie brownie.

Why does that make you think mothrax is town? Do you not think Raven's scummy any more?

[Mr.Sandman]

I'm opposed to a lynch on Lowell and I don't like benmage's suggestion that today is the best day to lynch someone like Lowell. I don't think it's a particularly scummy thing to think, I just think it's wrong. I had a similar situation in a newbie game where there were a number of town players it transpired, supporting a policy lynch on a player in day 1 in order to prevent the situation reaching LyLo, but if the player is town, it's merely an excuse for scum to vote for a player and secure an easy lynch, making it difficult to differentiate which of the players on the wagon were scum and which weren't. The problem resolved itself in that case, by the player getting modkilled

@Benmage: It was really where it was placed and how it was put that put me off a bit, though some of that could have been the tags...

at all: I could agree with a charlie wagon, given the evidence atm

I missed this. What's that supposed to mean? Surely that applies to any player. You saw popularity was building on a Charlie wagon, so you express interest in joining it. Why haven't you followed it up?

[Mr.Sandman]

unovte, vote moth

, I'm happy to oblige a bandwagon.

You were already on a wagon. Why's this one any better?

[Mr.Sandman]

No scum related reason?

It wasn't a defence. I just don't think you're today's lynch.

[Mr.Sandman]

@Sandman:

Why does that make you think mothrax is town? Do you not think Raven's scummy any more?

I said townie brownie, not Mothrax = town. Second, I gave him a townie brownie because he didn't back off when pressured for his vote.

About the last question in the above quote, reread the ending of my post and you will find your answer. Pay attention.

It would take fairly newbish scum to back off when pressured for voting, would it not?

Anyway,

unvote, vote Anon

I still think mothrax is scummy, however, I think Anon deserves some pressure. Explain after the claim, your sudden switch onto the other bandwagon and the vote for mothrax. Why have you just forgotten about Charlie, when your appeals to people to vote for him dropped?

There are also far too many 'can we just lynch such and such' posts without any real content. And by far too many, an ISO shows that most of them are like that. I don't see how anyone townie could hope to gain anything from posts like that other than to remain active, without arousing suspicion by falsifying accusations against people.

[Mr.Sandman]

Charlie, I'm not stupid. I get that you're pushing for a lynch. I'm asking why. Why do you find him scummy?

Mr Sandman - Pressure votes fail to be pressure votes when you announce that pressure votes are pressure votes.

Hmm, in a way. It still alerts him to the fact that his scumminess has been noted.

Hi Tozaro

A couple of questions:

Your point on Benmage - you agree with Anon about him, but you still have to read his posts? Am I misunderstanding something? You say this about a couple of other names on your list as well

And what's giving you your town read on Anon?

[Mr.Sandman]

I don't see anything particularly scummy about benmage.

Post 304 does nothing to help Stef, jumping on that wagon out of nowhere.

unvote

Anon because my vote isn't doing anything there. Anon seems to have disappeared. I think I'm the only one voting, although I will rejoin if it gains support.

I'm lazy, I'll leave counting up the votes to the mod, but when the vote count comes given that the deadline is approaching, I would prefer lynches of Stef, mothrax and Anon and possibly Wraith or Raven, and will vote accordingly.

Everyone who finds me scummy (or finds me to be the "scummiest person in the game") please explain to me what exactly it is you find me scummy for. Since multiple people are claiming that they "don't like" such and such about me and that I have apparently failed to properly defend myself against attacks, I would like to know specifically what those attacks are, since all I see are "reaction to vote" as well as "needs more pressure"
I can't defend myself if I don't know why you are attacking me...
I will say this (again.) My reaction to the bandwagon was relaxed for multiple reasons.
A)It wasn't that large of a wagon, L-4/L-3 are not worrisome numbers for me, especially relatively early D1.
B)If the wagon had been succesful, it would have aided town anyways... I have people claiming I am just looking out for myself which I don't see. Yeah, it would be nice to stay alive, but if I die, I die and can still win. My death would have also allowed the town to analyze the wagon on me, and analyze my interaction with others (i.e. who came down on me hardest, etc...) IMO voting patterns and interactions with confirmed players are some of the most resourceful tools for town to use.

This looks to me like someone trying to think in hindsight of every possible reason why someone would do that, which takes away the whole sincerity of it. I mean that in terms of A and B contradicting each other. You say you didn't need to defend yourself because you weren't worried about the numbers, but then you also say that you wouldn't necessarily have minded being lynched anyway. Did you really sit there at the time and think I don't need to defend myself because if I get lynched, it'll help the town? I don't see how not defending yourself is pro-town. Going by that logic, every time a townie is attacked they should just let themselves get lynched so that everyone else can analyse.

Wraith, I don't like the way he's trying to get a lynch on Lowell, when it's fairly likely that won't happen today because of the number of people who are opposed. It's as if he doesn't want to be associated with a bandwagon for a pro-town player. He's pretty much the only player, other than defending benmage slightly, that Wraith has commented on. He's made no attempts to push any of the other scum reads he came up with when he ISO'd, just push the Lowell one.

Raven, because he's just saying whatever pops into his head which he thinks he'll get away with given whatever the general tendency in the game at the time is.

One example:

I hate Charlie's play. If anything, a policy lynch should be brought upon him for being unwilling to scumhunt unless told to. If someone has to tell you to scumhunt to avoid be lynched and you're not scumhunting on your own, then you are severely anti-town and should be lynched.

Unvote, Vote: Charlie

Policy lynches on D1 don't work because we're not left with much for the next day. Also, we should probably lynch a more active person because that will give us more information to work off of for 'tomorrow'. Lynching a semi-lurker won't help us much unless we're sure they're lurker-scum.

Massive contradiction. Wants to policy-lynch charlie then says that policy-lynches don't work.

[Mr.Sandman]

I'm afraid I'm struggling a bit for internet access at the moment. There's only 3 days left, till the deadline.

vote Wraith

[Mr.Sandman]

The argument which says we won't get any information if we lynch Wraith because we've been told to lynch Wraith, assumes he is town. It doesn't take away from the fact that he hasn't been particularly town looking anyway, that people were voting for him because of his scumminess originally, and that he only really started scum hunting with his ISO's, when he started to become suspicious for the lack of scum hunting prior to that. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the whole sacrificial thing. I can see it either way, but based not on that but the rest of Wraith, I'll leave my vote where it is for now. I would probably only change it this lynch if a Stef wagon comes along.

ugh.... I have read and reread and I have no idea who to vote for at this point...

unvote

Wraith is not todays vote... I will be srsly dissapointed if he is the one to die tonight... His insistancy that he be lynched is town or really smart scum (less likely). His open invitation to let others jump on his wagon invalidates any wagon analysis there...
It seems as if I am being pressured to vote for a limited number of people, which seems scummy to me... I need to go back and ISO a few people again... We have 5 days to come up with a lynch, and I am not convinced any of the three are where my vote will lie.

So anyone from now on can just claim that their lynch will be a good thing and people will unvote them?

[Mr.Sandman]

V/LA till Monday probably

[Mr.Sandman]

I also have my eye on Mr. Sandman, his vote also had no reason looking back at the Wraith voters.

My vote did have a reason. I didn't mention those reasons in the post in which I placed my vote but I did in my post prior to that. I voted wraith out of all my suspects because he looked likeliest to lynch and I didn't want a no lynch.

Some people joined the charlie wagon far too easily. Tazaro, toonfighter and lowell to name three. I think it stands in his favour that he managed to get to L-1 so quickly, almost as if there were players looking for an opportunity to run a player up to L-1 so that they could get a claim, and they did so on the back of little to no reasoning. Oso set out the case at the start, toonfighter and lowell very willingly agreed with it.

I see Charlie's exposed for bad play

Vote: Charlie

Bad play isn't necessarily scummy play, no?

Since all I am doing here is apparently being useless, or attacking a player I find scummy (I thought that was what I was supposed to do) I will

unvote

.
I will hammer Charlie when the town decides that is what they want. I don't see what is so scummy but since that is the general consensus and at leas part of his wagon is town I will follow that.
Happy?
If you need me I will be being a good little townie and only pressuring those you all think are scum.

I don't like this post. It assumes you know who the town are and it assumes you'll do something you supposedly don't really want to do, because you feel you will have a justifiable excuse. You even set yourself up for it by unvoting whoever you were voting, almost looking like a preparatory step

Posting to avoid prod, will have content tomorrow.

Where's this content we were promised?

vote CCARaven

Because he has yet to do anything today to in anyway alleviate his scummy behaviour yesterday

[Mr.Sandman]

I don't buy Charlie's claim. The way he is playing is not, at least in my opinion, the way a VT would be playing. No scum hunting to speak of. No trying to persuade folks to go after who he might think is scum (this is from yesterday's play). No probing to verify or disprove his own reads. I'm sorry. His claim just doesn't match up with his play at all as far as I'm concerned.

I fully agree with this, VTs are the meat of discussion starters I think (or at least they should be), and there is a fairly good possibility of Charlie being scum (given the knowledge that has been developed thus far).

I don't want to end the day just yet though.

I disagree with this. Theoretically, yes, in a perfect mafia world, that is the way a VT should play. How often does it actually happen though? Very little in my experience. If every player played as they were supposed to for any given role, you wouldn't end up lynching cops and doctors

I'm not saying charlie's lack of scum hunting isn't suspicious, but for VT reasons, I don't think there's a link. However, I must say, the more he continues to defend himself, the uneasier I feel about him. For a start, why aren't you voting, charlie?

[Mr.Sandman]

Place a vote then...

[Mr.Sandman]

4.)

I also don’t like Mr. Sandman’s posts. They follow logical conclusions and end with trite questions (like “So if anybody does X, it means Y?”). Obviously all thoughts on players are situational, and if a player attempts the same thing as another player hoping the same conclusion will be drawn about them, it is a different scenario (because now it becomes “After somebody did X and it meant Y, now a

second

player has tried X, which means Z”). The biggest example that I recall was from Post 534. It is basically trivializing a gut read that Wraith was town.

Think about it this way. On Day One, all players do is talk. So absolutely every single read could be summarized as, “oh, so every time somebody says X, they are Y?” Drawing conclusions from people say, how they say it, and when they say it is the essence of playing mafia.

That’s not what I was trying to say at all. That post came in the context of a number of people saying that lynching Wraith wasn’t worthwhile because it had become a policy lynch. I was making the point that I was happy where my vote was because Wraith had appeared scummy to me earlier in the day, and just because some people were now calling it a policy lynch didn’t take away from that fact. I don’t see where I trivialized anyone’s gut read.

I think there may well be something in the Tazaro case, which I think is stronger than the Charlie one, given that it is based on an actual scum action rather than an analysis of a players play. That being said, I can see where Oso’s case in post 706 comes from. I just think it’s less watertight. I’d like to have a look at Charlie townie in some completed games to see if this game compares at all. His playstyle seems quite distinctive in this.

I’m not sure what to make of the fact that one of the main supporters of the Tazaro case is the player I’m voting right now, however. And that pj doesn’t have an opinion of Charlie it would seem. Pj in his favour, has stepped up the activity and at least looks at least to be trying to scum hunt, which is more than can be said of Raven. However, a lot of it seems to be forceful attacks on players, which is completely discredited by the fact that one minute he thinks Oso is scum, the next, he thinks he’s town. I’m happy with my vote where it is for now.

[Mr.Sandman]

Mr. Sandman, I do not believe Oso is Town. What I said is that if I am correct about Tazaro being scum, that Oso is probably not scum with Tazaro. When I originally replaced, I thought Oso was the scummiest player in the game. Now I think Tazaro is the scummiest player in the game, and his alignment necessarily bears on Oso's probable alignment. How does this "discredit" my opinion? If Tazaro ends up Town, there is a fair chance I will headed straight back to Oso.

Furthermore, is there something wrong with "forceful attacks"? Last I checked, I just replaced into a game where there was a player very close to being lynched. I do not find that player particularly scummy, and I find several other players scummy. What do you suggest I do when I replace into a situation like this? Meekly vote my largest suspicion and let a wagon finish itself?

You think there "may well be something to the Tazaro case" and you also think the case is better than the case on Charlie. Please reread and Tazaro and tell me whether you think he is scum or town. This is a fairly short game all things considered and deadline is still over a week away, so this should not be very much to ask.

As for trivializing somebody's gut, I am pretty sure you did (whether you intended it or not). Going off of memory, a player said they thought Wraith was Town because of the way he offered himself to be lynched. You responded along the lines of, "so every time somebody offers themselves to be lynched, they are Town?" I think that is trivializing a valid comment on Wraith's play by trying to make his statement sound absurd by universalizing the logic when the logic was clearly situational.

If Tazaro is your biggest scum read and you don't think Oso is on the same team, that would imply that Oso is town. It discredits your opinion because you're laying into Oso, then suddenly your not, which makes your whole aggression and forcefulness in your arguments seem all wind and water, and that it's nothing more than a facade. Also, I don't think Charlie was in any great danger of getting lynched at that point. I would've been surprised if he had been.

My thoughts on ISO'ing Tazaro: Firstly, all I see is one or two very, very weak pushes for votes. Avoids confrontation at all costs, posts a lot, a substantial number of which have no game related substance. In that context, the drawing attention to the night kill looks worse. There is also the defence of Stef, another player who I think is scummy.

However, on continuing to read through the thread and what followed, there are some things that make me reluctant to vote him and think that he may just be a scummy looking townie.

Firstly, toonfighter's vote on him. Weak post coming out of nowhere from him, scummier still that he moves off the charlie wagon in favour of it, without reason for unsuspecting charlie any longer. Incidental to that is the fact that his actions on day 2 have been to vote mothrax (day 1 suspicion), vote charlie (to put him to L-1, i.e. jumping on a bandwagon), to vote tazaro (jump on the next wagon of the day as it builds momentum, with horrendous reasoning, including something about lynching mothrax day 3).

Mothrax is another one to support a tazaro lynch. Again, another player I've found scummy.

Toogeloo I have not really found suspicious so far. But seriously, unvoting Tazaro as soon as pj does just because the steam runs out of that particular wagon? Not only does he just unvote, he drops the case completely, without a reason why.

FoS: Toogeloo

I'm going to

unvote

pj for now, because that doesn't appear to be going anywhere, and he's offering a lot more than raven was.

I seem to be suspicious of most of the players in the game now but I'd most like to lynch toonfighter. Additional to the points I made about him earlier in this post, for all everyone says about lowell, toonfighter's posted less. He wasn't on the wraith wagon because he thought wraith was town but made no effort to convince any. In fact, reading his post on wraith, it's almost as if he knew wraith was town. He seemed pretty darn certain. His vote on mothrax day 2 makes no attempt to analyse what went on day 1, he just wants to hop back onto his old wagon.

vote toonfighter

Rather than quote all his posts I've referred to and make this post more unmanageably longer than it is already, his ISO is only 11 posts long for reference purposes.

[Mr.Sandman]

unvote

Oh dear. I missed that. I agree he's not today's lynch.

I think Toogeloo's last post is a case in point about what I was trying to say about pj's arguments being discredited by his sudden changes of direction.

Benmage: I thought the case against Charlie had weight and further to it, I don't like the way he has just retracted into the shadows when attention was diverted elsewhere. However, I feel like I need to clarify my reads in my own mind, given that I thought Tazaro was scum, but then was unlikely scum because of the actions of other people. On reflection, I think I'm getting too confused by looking for links between players and trying to suss out the whole game at once by looking at who did what in response to what and when, which is pretty much meaningless without a scum flip. I notice I'm not the only one doing this. I think we should get a scum flip first before we start hypothesising about who goes with who. What do you think of Tazaro?

[Mr.Sandman]

vote charlie

I'm happy for a charlie lynch. Looked at some of his other games and he's typically more active as town than scum. Given that he's one of the top suspects, he's lurking far too much. Add that to the cases against him and I'm happy for a charlie lynch today.

According to my calculations, that's L-1

[Mr.Sandman]

I'm having my doubts about Oso. I'd like to know why he was so willing to come out with this roleblocking information today when he had put up such a staunch resistance to it yesterday. Without even being prompted, he came out with it. It makes me wonder if maybe he was holding out yesterday so that he'd have the chance to discuss and come up with a suitable tactic, and now that he's got that tactic in place, he's willing to reveal all

[Mr.Sandman]

Oso's response makes sense. I think its unlikely we're in lylo.

There's nothing that makes Lowell obv town like he says. I'm not sure what, if anything, he's referring to when he says this. I also don't get particularly good vibes from stef. Not overly keen on the way tubby and him jumped straight on to the secondary wagon of day 3 as soon as the day started.

Toon/toog, perhaps I missed this but what are your opinions of tazaro?

[Mr.Sandman]

I see Lowell is going to lynch. Fair enough, I would've probably voted him also, eventually. Don't see what the rush was though. Zorblag hasn't even posted today to my knowledge. Stef is scummy in my eyes

[Mr.Sandman]

My post after the hammer - I came on and saw Lowell had been lynched, I hadn't had the chance to post for a couple of days, since Lowell had claimed or been under that much pressure really and I just thought it would be better if people knew what my thoughts were before the day ended. I think the way Stef went about ending the day looked scummy regardless of what Lowell's flip had been. If you read Stef's day 3 posts, he wants Tazaro lynched at the start of the day because that was the popular alternative lynch the day before, and just abandons that and decides that 'lowell prolly needs to die today'. Then he wants to hear more people on the lowell claim, although the only players he waits for are Agar and lowell, before hammering him when the day is still relatively short, presumably feeling he had what looked like a legitimate reason to do so because Agar was egging on the lowell attack.

I need to re-read tubby for myself when I get the chance. I don't really have a strong read in my mind there at the moment.

[Mr.Sandman]

I've read through on tubby and I can see for myself why people think he's scummy. A lot of this has been said already but, yes, he has active lurked a lot and posted a lot of messages of the 'just responding to a prod' kind, which isn't in his favour. He was onto Wraith's wagon as quickly as he could be when Wraith submitted to his own lynch, without giving any reasoning.

The benmage reaction was telling as well, given benmage's flip.

Wraith, your bleeding town at this point which is something scum want gone asap.

@Charlie

why wraith? Your iso 14 which is your forced content doesn't give that much information. State the case on him, and your reasoning. Bullets is fine.

Baddd tubby vote. Tubby follow ze benmage, vote stef.

Not 'tubby you've just placed a scummy vote', just a bad vote and an attempt to deflect that vote away from it being on a wagon on a town player.

The thing that stands out to me most about tubby is the way he is automatically drawn to the most popular scummy players are. Aside from the wraith vote already mentioned, day 2 – puts charlie to L-1 with this post:

vote charlie

i really feel this is the correct lynch i'd like to look at moth tomorrow

He hadn't even mentioned charlie's name before I don't think, and suddenly he's on the wagon without any reasoning.

ISO #23 – says Taz is now scummy, because other people are starting to say that.

Goes straight for tazaro, day 3 and day 4 and doesn't contribute anything else or bother making a case.

One other thing I noticed, which consolidates my read on him in my mind, is the way he hasn't taken on Stef at all. He mentioned him once on day 1 when he said he had a town read. Since then, he hasn't interacted with him or given any opinions of him or mentioned him.

Stef has twice voted him for lurking, but unvoted when tubby actually did express an opinion for the first time shortly after. The second time, he did and then disappeared on V/LA and came back and moved on to a PJ vote.

In conclusion, I agree with the scum reads on tubby

[Mr.Sandman]

At the moment, my vote would be going on tubby, but I don't want the day ending sooner than it needs, especially while we wait on a Zorblag replacement

[Mr.Sandman]

I'd also like to hear Stef's views on tubby

[Mr.Sandman]

And mothrax's. Just ignored tubby today so far, despite him being the biggest talking point

[Mr.Sandman]

my views on tubby since they were asked for is that it is another wagon that rose rather quickly and another probable mislynch. I need to look at votecounts, hopefully I will get a chance to do that today.

I really don't like this. This strikes me as the post of a player who knows something. From a townie perspective, if I thought there was a serious chance that someone was heading for a mislynch, my first thought would be why. General votecounts aren't the place I'd go for that. I'd look at players who were pushing a wagon, I'd look at players who jump on a wagon with ease. It doesn't even look like the intention is to look at vote counts in relation to tubby in particular, because if that was the case, the logical thing would be to look at the last one, which isn't too hard to find or work out for yourself. I don't know what this says about tubby's alignment, but it makes me dislike the look of mothrax

[Mr.Sandman]

I'd like to request now, that when there's any intent to hammer from any day here on in, deadline permitting, every player is given the chance to speak.

I think we should mass claim and this would be my preferred order

moth
Stef
Tazaro
Zorblag

[Mr.Sandman]

That's fair enough I guess. I maybe shouldn't've revealed my order but there it is

[Mr.Sandman]

I think I would like to give Toon a chance to speak on the matter before I say anymore. I do more than enough representing for the both of us, so I am hoping he might actually be able to make a decision on his own.

@Sandman, conveniently, you didn't place yourself on the claim order... where do you think you should fall?

I'm happy to go whenever everyone else decides I should go

I really think now its time for a massclaim, and I believe Tazaro should be first to claim. He was in a lot of lynches, and he was accused by some confirmed towns, so I want to see what he claims.

If he has claimed already, could someone remind me of his claim? In that case, I think Sandman should go first, based on his reluctance to claim.

I think you misunderstand me. I have no reluctance to claim whatsoever. If you're referring to my list, I just thought I wouldn't have any influence over the time of my own claim so it didn't cross my mind to include myself on the list

[Mr.Sandman]

I'm VT. I'd like Stef next, and think that only if we're waiting an unreasonable amount of time, Zorblag will do instead.

[Mr.Sandman]

My thoughts are as follows:

Toogeloo and toon, I'm as happy I think, as I could ever be in a game that they're town. Even despite the claim, I think toog has been one of the most pro-town players in the game. I also don't see it as likely that there are only 2 town powerroles in the game. The alternative to that is that a townie has lied about their claim which also seems to be very unlikely at this stage.

Stef has been scummy pretty much all game. If I had to pick one moment I think which highlighted his scumminess, I would draw everyone's attention again to the hammer of Lowell. Take that in the context of which it was said and it looks even worse. In terms of posting content, he has contributed very little. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that not much less than half of his posts areV/LA posts or telling us he intends to post. The one thing I notice in his defense is his attack on BM day 1. BM was voting him – as has already been pointed out by someone, a vote which was redundant because it was alone on a player, and therefore unlikely to come to a lynch but provided BM with a reason not to be on the mislynch of the day.

I don't like mothrax either. Again, there have been several scummy moments in the course of the game that I've picked up on. There have been one or two times where he's said he disagrees with a lynch or an opinion but that he's willing to go along with it in support if it's what the town wants. I hadn't previously picked up on this before but his hammer on Charlie doesn't look particularly good either coming out of this quote:

I said I would hammer, and after a reread some of what was said has convinced me. VOTE: charlie

… when, as far as I can see, he hadn't previously expressed any intention of hammering, or indeed any reaction to, or comment on charlie at any point that day.

I'm undecided on Zorblag and Tazaro.

So, now that Zorblag has claimed, I think he should be lynched. I have compared his play in other games (since he is nice enough to keep his wiki updated), and his play this game is pretty standard for his scum play. He comes off educated about how things should be handled, stating it a pro-town way, but remaining entirely off the grid. It should be a tip off that after every single day prior he has been absent or quiet, and now today he is trying to lead having more posts than probably every day prior combined.

I'm in two minds about Zorblag. I believe I'm allowed to refer you to our QT when we were scum together in 935 as the links included in the post-game anyway.
http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/bxD8muxrJLv
In his last post, you'll notice he speaks about the way in which he uses the lack of game pace to his advantage. I believe that Zorblag is the kind of player who can use the situation of the game to suit himself. Why I say this relates to the points you've already drawn attention to about his activity levels and the way in which today he seems to have come out as someone who wants to lead the town. I also agree with your point about his posts containing what is legitimate mafia information, which doesn't necessarily have the greatest of bearings on the game. However, on the other hand, I wouldn't say there's one moment or post I could point to as being down-right scummy from Zorblag.

As for Tazaro, I hold against him the WIFOM speculation that was pointed out earlier in the game. He stood up in defence of Stef as being 'conservative, neutral and quiet' at one point during the day we lynched charlie. Also on rereading, this caught my eye:
Drawing on Furclow:

Alright. I'm caught up.

the 3 reminder was this post: post #333

1) Hey, the only way everybody is going to agree to policy lynch Lowell is if there's no possibility that's there's something better to do with our votes. It's a moot point really and we have to act as a collective, but I'm not going to suggest that it's good play to vote for Lowell if no one else cares about policy lynching him.
2) I said that Charlie's reaction to pressure made me not know if I can trust him. I have a problem with cross examination if you're doing it just because I said I was suspicious of you in my opinion post of people. You only asked me about suspicions that were about YOU; you asked me about Anon's gist. I don't mean to have a debate here or anything but if you're town play less selfishly because your not doing yourself any favors.

This post, to me, screams scumtalk due to lack of daytalk. When I see the word "collective" the way it is used, I think of scum or cult! Tazaro has been buddying up to BenMage all game, and BenMage has been distancing himself from Tazaro all game as highlighted by ToonFighter in #558 when he is quoting CCARaven4's opinion of another quote I want to address:

Yay, his "when I'm obvtown (this game)" strikes me as presumptious.

This post is scummy to me, and he meant to type yeah, which is a slip in and of itself. Furthermore, he is jumping at the opportunity for a policy lynch that has been dead for pages. The fact that someone fresh is trying to go along with it entices him to lend weight to the thought of it which indicates to me he is likely scum.

I'm going to feel like Mother Teresa for saying this, but Mothrax and Toon fighter, unvote from each other. Time for peace and peace brings love

how do you know they're both town? deductive reasoning? scum.

Wraith's weird vote on me for being "neutral" should be a TownRead-buster to boot.

Actually, Wraith putting you as neutral despite how you'd been posting + the scumminess of your slot earlier in the game felt like a tell to me on him, and not benmage, being your scumbuddy. I'm not certain, but I feel like we get a lot of information on your interaction with both of these players. If Wraith is Green, and BenMage is red, you will likely be red. If Wraith is red, I'm probably not going to endorse a BenMage lynch.
I just realized you WEREN'T referring to #464, either, when I was. whoo. hmm. Wraith yet again puts you at neutral, and in middling position. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 of you were scum together.

@Oso

I don't think 1 is a viable excuse. I personally dislike him because he always play as X,Y,Z (scummy). X, Y, Z, are scummy in themselves not because I dislike him. And as far as the perfect cover I think that is pretty far from the truth. Whenever I have pushed policy's (moreover this early) I have been town(can't recall even pushing a policy as scum). In addition I've never seen scum push a policy so early in a game. Because it draws attention and often negative attention their way. Something scum want to avoid (/end rant I've beat this point in with plenty of others this game).

2. As far as two goes I've also beat this point that many things will be able to be drawn from a policy lynch. Eagerness to join said policy lynch/resistance to vote/ how people vote etc etc...sure if everyone pop'd in and simply put "vote xxx" we'd have little to draw on, but that

never

happens. Not to mention NK's and any/all posts/information. To suggest we'd enter D2 clueless is a misnomer.

Moar Stef votes.

Pushing policy lynches on bad townies is scummy on day 1 in my opinion. I disagree with you, and find your playstyle arrogant and presumptuous while sort of Naziish. The fact that you push policies as town means that you would do it as scum, or your playstyle would be broken anyways. You would need to do it as scum, and then say, like you are this game, you do it as town, don't lynch me. It's a broken fucking record. Isn't that fucking WIFOM? You say scum want to avoid it, and you imply you are avoiding it, but it is left open for you to be scum and caught up in something you don't want to be called out on because you are being a little hitler. I agree that we get quite a lot of information from Wraith being lynched, but the fact of the matter is he is acting townie as fuck, whereas you are acting like a blue or red power role to me, and are therefore a better lynch/forceclaim.

@Tazaro/Oso/anyone.

Not sure how you can read post 491 and not be voting Stef.

I asked him simple questions that he refuses to answers because he thinks their irrelevant. Just cause he doesn't see my agenda doesn't excuse him from answering real basic questions. The obstinacy is so scummy.

This strengthens my association of BenMage and Tazaro. He is asking Tazaro to put pressure and consolidate their vote as a mafia collective because they are incapable of doing so in their quicktime right now.

Benmage wrote:Tazaro is a lynch I'm willing to get behind. But right now I think I'd prefer Stef or Anon, mayyyybe Raven.

@BenMage: Is there any game on this site as scum where you have been on the wagon of your teammates?

Lowell, if you are in fact town, convince us that you are town. Why should we believe you?

With Wraith making posts like this, I don't understand the wagon on him. His defense of himself was very good and very townie in my eyes. There is no way I'm voting him, but I really don't care if he dies. Better than us mislynching or exposing a doctor or detective.

@CCARaven4

what's your read/view on Lowell?

this could be rephrased as "ccaraven4, would you lynch a village idiot if i pushed hard enough?" why would you do that unless you were scum? I don't believe the explanations you've been giving, and I'm going to

vote: benmage

with

fos

on tazaro if benmage is red

Particularly significant given that Furclow died that night. I can't argue with Tazaro's activity levels, although he doesn't develop on what he contributes, making it difficult to gauge exactly what his opinion of most people are at any given time.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I would be happiest with a mothrax lynch. I'm also fairly confident on Stef. I disagree with toogeloo on Zorblag being today's lynch. I'm not ruling out a Zorblag lynch at some point, but given my confused read on both him and Tazaro and the non existent margin for error, a lynch of either of them doesn't sit nearly so well with me at the moment.

Also, in response to comments about my activity levels, I apologise for them, but these are my activity levels whatever my alignment. I try and come on once a day and catch up, although more often than not, not at weekends.

[Mr.Sandman]

As far as Sandman goes, for the longest time I thought he was town and would never had considered him scum. Most of his initial reads were the same as mine, yet I have been wrong with almost everything I have thought since the game began. As time went on, I started to rethink the game. As of the last few days however, Sandman has been consentful of almost all the lynches while offering no opinion of his own other than what was already popular.

I think most of the people still alive have ended up on most of the lynches, not that that is an excuse. The only thing I would say in my defence is that if people had held off a bit longer two or three of the lynches, I think more discussion may perhaps have prevented certain lynches. After lowell's claim for example. I also felt that mothrax deserved more attention before the tubby hammer. I'm not saying I or anyone else would've saved them, but I still don't think the pace at which people took them was right.

@Mr.Sandman, we've now confirmed three pro-town power roles but I largely don't disagree with anything you're saying. I've been busy rather than trying to exploit the pace of the game here (if I were trying to exploit it here I could pretty easily hang back and let the game develop without my interference at this point; we probably need to get all of the rest of the lynches right and I suspect that as scum I could lie low and let the town beat itself.)

You're not sure about Tazaro now but I can't tell what it is that you think makes him potentially town based on what you've just written. What is it that I'm not seeing there?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

The fact that I haven't written you off as being scum either - until I do, I think the potential is there he could be town. That's why I don't think either of you are today's lynch. I'd also add right now that another thing I don't like about him now is the fact that today, I've suddenly become a top suspect of his today for 'activity' reasons, when he's barely even mentioned my name before

Tazaro, opinion of mothrax and Zorblag?

[Mr.Sandman]

@Mr.Sandman, that wasn't quite what I was trying to ask there. I guess maybe I should phrase it as what has Tazaro done that keeps him off your list of probably scum that mothrax and Stef haven't done? You're classifications clearly put the later two in a scummier category and I'm trying to understand the distinction as I don't see any praise for Tazaro in your thoughts about him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I would say the one thing which discourages my scum read on him are his activity levels. While broadly speaking, there perhaps shouldn't be much difference between town and scum, and I think you have to take different playing styles and activity levels generally into account, I would still say that scum have a tendency to hang back more, whereas in this case Tazaro has probably been one of the most active players in the game. I'm also aware that the flip side to that is the content of the posts and while he may have posted a lot, his content in those posts is a lot thinner than some who have posted less. That's really all I've got down in his favour, but it's enough to discourage me from coming to a definite conclusion on him, whereas I feel fairly comfortable with the other two

However, the more I think about this, the more I would choose Zorblag as my town pick over Tazaro

[Mr.Sandman]

In fact, what I said about the number of posts by Tazaro is a null tell. Just checked some of his games listed on his wiki and he's very active in all of them. I would definitely choose Zorblag as town above him

[Mr.Sandman]

Given that it's lylo, I still have more confidence that I'd hit scum with mothrax, but in the situation that has arisen, I think one of the masons should unvote and be the one that hammers, reducing the possibilities of scum quick hammering. That way, if anything suspicious comes up, town will still have an element of control

[Mr.Sandman]

Nothing has changed about my reads from yesterday. I would like to reread Zorblag just to confirm my thoughts but Tazaro was the scum read I was least sure about. Mothrax and Stef remain my scum choices

[Mr.Sandman]

Apologies, I'm struggling for time right now but things should clear up within a couple of days I hope

[Mr.Sandman]

I apologise for my inactivity yesterday. I was snowed under with work and starting a distance learning course as well which I'm slowly adapting to.

I'm about 90% confident that mothrax is the last scum. If it's Zorblag, then I'll hold my hands up and say I've fallen for it, but it's not just that I think mothrax is the scummier of a scummy pair, but I also get a strong town vibe from Zorblag. I'd like mothrax to present anything specific he would like to bring to my attention to, either in his defence or against Zorblag, before I vote. I'm also aware that I became his likely target for today, yesterday, so what you have against me, show me that too

Zorblag, in terms of the bus you draw attention to, I know its WIFOM but the general consensus was that Stef was probably the top choice for a lynch going into that day. A bus at that particular point would seem to be a sensible thing for scum to do. If he'd defended him and we'd ended up lynching Stef anyway, it would've reflected even worse on him today. In a hypothetical situation, if he'd bussed Stef earlier in the game, that to me would have given it more credibility as a town move. Given the circumstances, it doesn't do anything to significantly change my opinion of him.

[Mr.Sandman]

Bah, got it wrong

I enjoyed this game more than most I've played on here for some reason I can't put my finger on, despite the loss