Mafia 137 - Neruzian Era Mafia SERIAL KILLER WIN!

[Maxous]

VOTE: Mastin

[Maxous]

20. zMuffinMan <--Also a very slight town-read.

TOWN:
......
MuffinMan

/confirm

Are you making this up?

[Maxous]

Oh yeah Mastin, something I was wondering last time, even though it did'nt come into effect.
With the VCA reads does "town" mean 'town' or 'not maifa'.
How does potential third parties figure into it?

[Maxous]

Do you see anything in here which looks like it's coming from the mindset of a pro-town player?

Yep

if scum try to use it as anything more than what they are, more fool them too.

A+

unvote

VOTE: Hiplop

[Maxous]

Please, enlighten me. I am not seeing it.

I see scumhunting in his posts. So...yeah.

Additionally, if you think there's at least one scum on my wagon, do vote inside of it. Not out.

If there is one scum on the wagon and 3-4 off the wagon then it does'nt matter where you vote.

As for Toon - 109: The only person I remember bringing any kind of accusation against Mastin was Hiplop.
It does'nt really matter if he 'deserves' it or not this early on. Some people just like to build a wagon early.

[Maxous]

Yes it does. Less spread if people are voting within a smaller sample size.

What...?
Are you implying we should be basing the first few lynches based on mastin's bandwagon or something?

And Toon has gotten himself in the 'scummy-looking' area~

I don't see it. Why is he scummy looking?

I don't like how people are trying to draw connections between themselves and other people this early if that makes sense.

Not really..
Are you referring to Tomie and zMuffinman?

[Maxous]

unless I've misread, haven't they also been trying to draw connections between themselves and mastin as well (at least on muffinman's part)?

The only one I remember is Tomie stating that Mastin and Muffinman are unlikely to be scum partners.

I agree with Mastin about Tomie

Agree with what? He has'nt given an explanation.

I am pretty sure hiplop is town, based on other games I have played/read with him.

What is Hiplop doing here that he is more likely to do as town?(or less likely to do as scum?)

I can see the reaction fishing ways of it. Yeah

Okay..so do you think he is scum or not?

dunno.
maybe you should look.

Do you have

any

reason?

Is it just me or does it seem like Mastin is simply throwing mud at the suspects in his list rather than trying to determine thier alingment?
As in he said twice 'does this look like a town comment to anyone' instead of explaining why they are scum for the comments. He is switching the burden of proof to explaining why they are'nt scum when he should be explaining why they are scum.

[Maxous]

Maxous, did you learn nothing about me last game?

What exactly are you trying to imply with this comment?

Shit stuck to Tomie

'shit' like what?
Give me an example.

1)

Do you have any thoughts on the game or just questions for people?

2)

Are you doing anything with the answers?

1)Just questions
2)Yep

@Toon Fighter: Can I get on your thoughts on wheter you think Tomie and Hiplop might be mafia? And Edmund as well actually.

[Maxous]

^^ Indeed.

Alright, Pine. Explain how Tomie's defence is inconsistent if you don't mind.

From I read I don't see anything pretty important.

Well..yeah there has'nt been.
But let's just not slack off now.

You don't see the 'OMG, Mastin's bandwagon looks interesting. It should be looked at. But I don't care so I won't look into it. After all, my vote was first so there's nothing wrong with it' (Rhetorical)
In other words, Toon doesn't like it that Mastin has 5 votes as Toon thinks he doesn't deserve it. It should mean that Toon should look at it. But instead, he keeps his vote on Mastin and 'defends' his vote already.

Eh, it just looked to me like he was curious about the wagon on Mastin.
To be fair the wagon on Mastin was about as unexplained as Mastin's own suspicions.

Can people please stop wasting their votes?

Who are people wasting thier votes on..?

only you

(muffinman)

pappums and now GI seem a slight bit scummy to me really. But nothing all that big.

And why do they seem scummy...?

[Maxous]

GM has me convinced

I assume you are reffering to GreyIce?
Which points convinced you and why?

You too Vezok.

[Maxous]

Heh, really Hiplop?
You agree with

all

of GreyICE's points on Toon Fighter?
The first point was GreyICE attacking him for stuff Mastin said when Toon Fighter was talking about Tomie.
The second and third point was just misrepesentative. And his points convinced you???
I don't buy that and I don't buy Hiplop. Would really like to see him lynched.

Mastin - GI did'nt call Pine called scum. I like your concern about it though.

Don't really see scum doing that, however, so I've got a townread on that slot overall.

Normally, yes.
However with particular player consider it a nulltell.

oh and

Pine

-

Explain how Tomie's defence is inconsistent if you don't mind.

[Maxous]

If I'm incorrect and my vote is on town, I'd love to hear your full case on Hiplop then.

Why did you ask this before you read the entire thread? (he explained already)
Also why did you vote before you were finsihed reading?

@mastin: How could I think it would be easy to get you lynched when I've seen the massive beating Tomie and Hiplop have taken for suggesting the same?

huh.
Good point.

And are you going to answer Mastin? Your response of 'he's still scum' is not going to wash.

I only skimmed the long posts so might respond to them later.

[Maxous]

Heh, vezokpiraka both chainsaw defended Hiplop and gave himself an out to suspect Hiplop later in the same post.
I think I know who is flipping red if Hiplop does.

I will elaborate on Hiplop later and answer one or two questions Chkflip gave me during that.

[Maxous]

And for some reason you did'nt mention all this about zMuffinman earlier..?

hiplop seems to be defending Bowser in his last few posts. They could be scum together.

Too obvious.

I think he's been trying to play too safe and I'm not really seeing how he's super pro-town as he may appear.

At the time you wrote this who exactly said I appeared "super pro-town".
And you really thought the best course of action was to ignore the biggest wagons of Hiplop and Tomie and throw a vote instead on somebody who is not going to get lynched?
Elephant dodging.

I will just unvote for now. I'm doing a carefull read on EVERYONE,

Sounds a bit forced.

Mastin, do me a favor and shut them up? Give your actual case on Tomie.

I was looking forward to this

Okay will wall later hopefully(I know stuff is outstanding)

[Maxous]

Oh great Hiplop - no you did not imply that.
Though Pappums Rat has explained it already.

Just like this post which was completely made up as he was implying he suspected Pappums.

'Before I vote him'

He had no intention of voting him. He made that up because Hiraki attacked him for his response to Pappums.
Pappums Rat posted after the response in 205. Hiplop posted in 230. Not a single utterance of 'hey pappums explain that shit'. Faaaake

And as for that Toon Fighter vote it seems my accusation to Hiplop was misunderstood. I

am not

attacking Hiplop because he suspects Toon Fighter.
I am pointing out that he clearly did'nt read GreyICE's post. He said the entire thing he agreed with. If he read the post he would of realised how wrong Grey was when he pointed out Mastin's posts instead of Tomie's. It was clear as day that first part was wrong.
Hell, Muffinman pointed that out in the

very next post.

Hiplop just followed the big bold accusations instead of deciding wheter or not the points had merits and trying to figure out Toon's alignment.

He made the suspicion up.

As town he would'nt of done that.

[Maxous]

Just ignore Mastin's claim.

[Maxous]

Hiplop has been caught lying

3 times

As for Mastin: All you need to know

Not that he won't do it as scum either but consider it a null-tell and take no heed of it.

[Maxous]

Muffinman - speak your grievance with Toon Fighter! (I went through his ISO and don't see scum motovation. Your earlier post about him was vague)

{GreyICE, Bowser, Vezokpiraka, Malpascp}
Scum has now hopped onto the hiplop wagon.

Those 4 votes came rather quickly after one another after we spent a long time trying to build the hiplop wagon up. Unsure about how many scum are in there though.
But it is rather interesting how the latter 3 scrambled to get on the hiplop wagon after GreyICE voted the second time. Like they realised the counter-wagons were'nt going to get through.


I'll answer Edmund's question a bit later.

[Maxous]

A couple of people asked about what posts I am calling a lie from Hiplop(i.e. my case)

First one is here. Hiplop says he wanted to vote Pappums but was waiting for PR to explain something he wrote before. So he was saying he was waiting on PR.
However the meta thing came up in this post. PR then posted here and Hiplop posted 7 times afterwards without a mention to PR. Hiplop only brought that up when Hiraki attacked him.
In conclusion he was not waiting for PR Hiplop completely made that up in an attempt to get pressure off himself and his caps lawk towards PR was contrived.

Number 2: Muffinman votes Bowser and Hioplop wants to know why. Muffinamna takes a blunt attitude towards him. Hiplop then comes with an early post from Muffinman and says it is scummy. I ask him why he did'nt mention his suspicion of muffinman due to that post earlier.
Hiplop comes out with this. Saying don't take it literally(w/e that means) and he was pushing muffinman the entire game - no he was'nt, check his ISO. He made that up because I was questioning him about why he mentioned something from way back now instead of at the time. He also made that up.

Number 3 is'nt so much a lie as a bluff: Hiplop said he agreed with all of what GreyICE wrote in that post attacking Toon Fighter and GI 'convinced' him Toon was scum. If you go back and look at GI's post, you will easily see that GI made a mistake in thinking Toon Fighter was referring to Mastin instead of Tomie. Anybody could see that, muffinman even stated that mistake in the very next posts afterwards. Yet when asked which points he agreed with Hiplop said nothing like 'apart from the first one obviously' or gave any sort of indication at all he properly read the post. Because he did'nt, he sheeped GI because he a lot of words in big bold text and looked like an easy wagon.
He bluffed that he actually read GI's post to determine Toon's alignment. Evidence would suggest he did not.
__________________________
__________________________

Do you think he's town, maxous?

Well, there is no particular post which I have read and said 'okay this guy is town' but in the absence of anything scum-motovated I can find(with the exception of one or two comments that might be interpreted as buddying) I would say yes.

Maxous, I agree about scum hopping onto the hiplop wagon. Which do you think is most likely to be scum?

malpascp.
His posts are too 'oh look how town I am' for my liking.
i.e. this. 'I'm inspecting everyone because I'm town'
this. 'I put him at L-2 but we should'nt hammer guys because we have to discuss first, discussion is pro-town and I want that because I'm town'
...yeah

[Maxous]

I got a possible solution,

tracker - target GreyICE tonight while he stabs things

You say I am scum because I have town attitudes.

it's because you seem to be trying too hard to look town. Seems forced.

Alright chkflip, give me a case then.

[Maxous]

zMuffiman - whenever you want to stop buddying GreyICE is fine by me.

Hiplop lynch is not going through today.
My next choice for ages has been Pine but I doubt I will get sufficent support, same with malpascp.
Bowser is a decent lynch.
Not supporting any of the four, 2 vote wagons.
Ehh, gimme a bit.

unvote

[Maxous]

In the following post, from what looks like mastin's reads and those alone, he votes Tomie with a simple post of "Then [votecode]Tomie[/votecode]" and that's that.

I don't do this as scum

My favorite part of all is how he asks in post 358 'hey guiez, how is hiplop scum' as if he doesn't see it at all... and then, not thirty posts later, he magically sees hiplop is scum because "no reasoning = scum"? THAT'S IT?

He didn't provide good reasons.

[Maxous]

Originally, Pappums was scum by Process of Elimination.

I have about 10 people I would like to lynch and you have so many town reads you are suspecting people by PoE? Wow o_O

While I find Pappums caps lawk post derpy I don't find it that scummy.

ROFL. Pappum's last post is just... wow. I've seen his town rage and this isn't it. At all.

Interesting. What makes it different?

I'm willing to allow Hikari to get what he wants.

Huh? What are you implying here?

VOTE: Bowser
^
Yeah, he needs to be lynched.

I'm willing to take egg my face and agree that Hiplop is looking like inexperienced town.

[Maxous]

I'm still reading guys. While the game is at a standstill I prob won't be posting much though.

maxous 404 is good posting... but it's quite a truism, come on... 4 players on a wagon... very likely that there is one scum, no way to say if a scum bussing scum or a scum tunneling town... 4 votes are not enough to assume hiplop is town.

I was implying there is more than one scum in that little group. It was the way it happened - slow wagon, slow wagon, gets the sixth vote, counter wagons looking unlikely and then suddenly boom the wagon accelarates with the votes.
I was more inclined to beleive that it was scum bussing(I was not calling Hiplop town with that post)
I actually forgot about that until you mentioned it. Bleh, back to thinking Hiplop is scum.
I'm still preferring Bowser for now though.

[Maxous]

GreyICE,

Are you saying it is scummy for a player to give out reads without providing adequate reasoning for the reads?

unvote

VOTE: Hiplop

Yeah I changed my mind again, let's just do this already.

[Maxous]

What is bullshit Hiplop? I did'nt say you became 'scummier'.

@Lewarcher: Yes it implied backtracking. And what do you mean too easy for an argument?

[Maxous]

I can't get who lynched? Bowser?

[Maxous]

zMuffiman - whenever you want to stop buddying GreyICE is fine by me.

Hiplop lynch is not going through today.
My next choice for ages has been Pine but I doubt I will get sufficent support, same with malpascp.
Bowser is a decent lynch.
Not supporting any of the four, 2 vote wagons.
Ehh, gimme a bit.

unvote

I clearly state the Hiplop lynch is going nowhere and decide to unvote and change. I later go on Bowser who was a large wagon at the time.
This could be construed as bandwagoning cause I could'nt get hiplop lynched.
Hiplop says nothing.

If you had control of my vote what would you do with it?

Unvote
Vote: TF

3. I was asking in order to sheep you.

Empking (presumeably) decides his vote is'nt really going anywhere and blatnatly states he is sheeping another wagon.
Hiplop says nothing

unvote
VOTE: Hiplop

Yeah I changed my mind again, let's just do this already.

I change my mind and vote Hiplop again.

bullshit. Can you explain why you decided i've become scummier?

pretty much "I CANT GET HIM LYNCHED, SO IMA BANDWAGON AGAIN".

This in fact was not sheeping a bandwagon. But suddenly, changing your vote and sheeping a bandwagon is bullshit when I voted Hiplop.
Yet he did'nt pay a blind bit of notice when people were doing the same thing but were'nt voting him.
If he really beleived changing your vote to sheep was bull/scummy he would of said something about the earlier 2 cases I quoted.
This is self-preservation.

[Maxous]

Hey maxous, is suspect Emp for a reason

hmm, this actually looks quite town-like.

How can you me sure someone is scum that early in the game? How would anyone know other than scum?

So you think Hiraki is bussing hiplop? Y/N

[Maxous]

What does bussing mean?

Do you think Hiraki and Hiplop are both on the mafia team together?

i like

Vezok and

empking as scum too.

At this stage I am tending to agree.

[Maxous]

Did you see lews latest post? Idc who it was about, it just happened to be on me. How is there ANY town motivation for what he said? Seriously explain.

No, you explain the scum motovation in it.

[Maxous]

Yeah, alright

unvote

His reaction to L-1 and the hammer seems town. Might change my mind again but I'm thinking he is town here. Silly town but w/e

Reaction fish L-1 vote?

- don't like the sound of that.

Pappums rat is not scum - that wagon can go burn.

Next biggest wagon is Toon fighter - I don't think he is scum and a lot of the wagon consists of "just look how scum he is"
Also, as of 871 I would be happy lynching 5 out of the 6 players on the wagon. I don't trust it.

You know,
VOTE: Empking

[Maxous]

Yeah but there's only 1 lynch -.-

DX replaced Pine though did'nt he? Pine seemed very much like scum. Add that to the slot's rap sheet.

Muffinman - you want to explain why everybody voting Hiplop are derps? Or why you are so confident in your town read of him?

[Maxous]

Public Service Announcement:

This post is town(along with others)

[Maxous]

Claiming VT is more or less like saying "go ahead". I can't see Scum not claiming a PR, at the very least to aid their team by outing the real PR before their death.

Hmm decent point.
And that is not role speculation.

@Sorgster: Did you think you were hammering hiplop here or did you unvote and vote in the knowledge that it was'nt a hammer?

@Muffinman:

Muffinman - you want to explain why everybody voting Hiplop are derps? Or why you are so confident in your town read of him?

___________________

if the two of them are scum together they just made a brilliant gambit...
this reaction to the fake hammer collides with *all* my hiplop reads, and I will hate myself if sorg and hip are scum together and we are being fooled by a silly trick. I have no strong scum reads on anyone else in the leading wagons.

whoever is preventing a flip from happening is scum-motivated. Especially because hiplop's flip will very likely be scum.

What changed?
___________________

Though it pains me, I'm not sure lies are scummy.

Though it pains me?

. Hurm. ¬_¬

but my main reason for Toon Fighter was pointed out in GreyICE #216 where Toon Fighter is asked for his opinion on mastin and says "mastin is asking a lot of questions", and then is subsequently caught by GreyICE when Grey shows that all of mastin's questions were rhetorical. I see NO town motivation in Toon Fighter doing this. Toon Fighter was acting(lol) all VI-like prior to this but there is no reason to outright lie to the town and invent reads to satisfy other people.

TF was talking about Tomie not Mastin.

[Maxous]

Lewarcher is an interesting flip I did'nt see coming.
And he was nice enough to write lots of details in his catch up posts. I'll look through them later, then decide who I want to pursue.

[Maxous]

We could have both either.
Still I don't think there is much point in speculating on it at this stage.
VOTE: Edmund Angles

[Maxous]

So he's suspicious of GreyICE, but then attacks zMuffin for buddying him, which as far as I have ever seen it, is scum buddying with a townie, so he's just throwing accusations around and probably trying to drive apart two townies.

I suspected Grey of being third party.
=> mafia could still buddy him.

As for the empking vote I did'nt agree with the top 3 wagons and there was about 3 days. I did'nt see it as impossible.

[Maxous]

yet you'd expressed no suspicion of zMuff up until that time.

The problem with this is?

[Maxous]

@Grey: Except I did'nt spend the day bitching about it.
I asked muffinman why he thought TF was scum and stated I thought TF was town.
And having a feeling someone is playing like third party is not exactly hunting for them.
So, no.

@Muffinman: Lewarcher flipped scum. I don't think you bussed 2 of your buddies, particulary since nobody was paying attention to pheobus.

[Maxous]

The word 'suspected' refers to the past tense.
So, yeah..

And the first paragraph was exagerrated. I stated the possibility of you being scum once.

[Maxous]

GI's case on me was plain stupid and misrepresenting.

mm-hmm.
And being on the receiving end of a case that was misrepresenting you, one would think you would check the next case to see of there are any misreps there.
But you did'nt because if you looked, they are not hard to spot.

PS: Please vig mastin even more. He has now preformed two instances of blatant anti-town play (fakeclaim + attitude towards No lynch).

Before he fully instigates your lynch.
Pretty much everyone knows Mastin is town by this stage.

malpascp continues to be scummy.

[Maxous]

^
Nice misrep quoting half the speculation.

Ironically, zMuffin convinced me more than GI did.

?
Muffinman was arguing against my lynch last I seen.

but mostly on your attitude towards the hiplop and TF wagons at deadline.

Hiplop thought he was hammered. I really did'nt see him as a player sneaky enough to fake a town reaction after pretending he thought he was hammered when knowing he was'nt.
So there was absolute zero way I was voting hiplop after that.

And if he is town, do you really want him to be around as a loose cannon at LyLo?

You're justifing his town-flip before it happens.

So Maxous considers GI's case on me crap, yet he votes me without stating a case independently

You said it was 'crap'. As it turns out the point he brought about you was wrong though I did'nt realise it at the time.

As for an explanation:
why is Hiraki('s slot) scum?
Or have you changed your mind?

[Maxous]

The misrep comment was directed towards zdenek.
Mastin is town because Pheobus/lewarcher was trying to get rid of him in a way that is quite unlikely to be bussing.
As for the 'crap' comment you missed the point. If you felt you were on the receiving end of a misrepping case the next time the same player makes a case on someone I find it difficult to beleive you would'nt double check it to make sure the same was'nt happening again. But you say that case was'nt what convinced you so I'll stike that off.
For the twisting thing - 1017, 1023, saying I was chainsawing defending toon cause I asked muffinman why he found toon scummy, saying I had toon as a super town read when I never stated a particular strong town-read on him etc. I would rather not go into all of it.


Now edward - 669. Why would stating a gut scum read on Hiraki distract the town?
And do you still think Bowser and chkflip is scum?

[Maxous]

Why is it unlikely to be bussing?

Cause Lewarcher pushed for Mastin to be vigged. That's not a good way to bus, you don't much town cred for it and lewarcher would likely be clever than that.
And this - pushing him for such reasons as 'I don't want to go through such an ISO' not really how you bus.
The two of them were trying to get rid of Mastin for being

anti-town

not scum. So are you coincidentally.

@zdenek:

lol.
Good luck town.

wat?
i thought i was dead I guess it's good that I'm not, but yeah.
Can we lynch pappums, pweaase?

Yeah, alright
unvote
His reaction to L-1 and the hammer seems town. Might change my mind again but I'm thinking he is town here. Silly town but w/e

Hiplop thought he was hammered. I really did'nt see him as a player sneaky enough to fake a town reaction after pretending he thought he was hammered when knowing he was'nt.

And okay I misunderstood something about that post you quoted. Nevermind.
__________________
__________________

Unless you've got a way to explain a scum power robbing a scum player of their vote...

1)Is town-aligned vote-stealers uncommon on this site?
2) I would imagine scum would be able to target each-other

But okay I do see your point. Question is: assuming he is town, why Edmund of all people? Who was he pushing that the mafia would'nt to vote? CSL? Hiraki?

[Maxous]

Edmund - do you think actually think Mastin is scum? Y/N

[Maxous]

@Maxous: What are your top scum reads?

Edmund, Empking, Malpascp, HezLucky, SomeRandomGuy to varying degrees.

If someone fails to claim the power, it's therefore a scum power.

I disagree.
But if the power came from a town player it would be useful if they said so, so we could clarify. Because who gives a shit if a vote-stealer dies?
Otherwise yeah, it looks less likely Edmund is scum.

Since there's the scum tactic of avoiding major wagons, I don't care about this.

Huh? What about Day 1 gave you the idea I would rather avoid 'major wagons'?

and Grey's post about edmund being on a 3-vote wagon telling him and two others to get off of toon fighter is :goodposting:

You know, you could of least

pretended

to of read Edmund's rebuttal.